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Darth Windu
12-09-2005, 12:54 AM
Well, having played both KotOR and KotOR2 many times, I thought I may as well post some ideas I have for gameplay improvements if there is a KotOR3. Anyway, here goes.


Attacks
- Player should be able to chose default attack for all NPC party members and self. For example, player could choose a party member to use Flurry as their default attack, which that character would use without any external input.


Classes
- Non-Jedi Prestige classes should be introduced with LS and DS variants. These would be

Soldier --> Peacekeeper (LS) / Mercenary (DS)
Scout --> Commando (LS) / Bounty Hunter (DS)
Scoundrel --> Smuggler (LS) / Slaver (DS)

These classes would give access to various feats/abilities similar to those obtained in the Jedi Prestige classes. For example, the Peacekeeper/Mercenary would get the same extra two-weapon fighting and weapons proficiency feat options as the Jedi Weapon Master. These would also provide an option in terms of training NPC party members. Do you want to train a Soldier as a Jedi Guardian, or as a Peacekeeper/Mercenary?

- Jedi Master should be renamed Jedi Force Master, while Sith Lord should be renamed. These titles are indicative of Rank, not ‘path’. For example, irrespective of what class you are, you will still be either a Jedi Master or Sith Lord.


Feats
- Allow associated Prestige classes access to class-specific feats. For example, if player chooses Jedi Sentinel --> Jedi Weapon Master, player should be able to choose Force Jump feats. These would not be automatically granted however.


Force Powers
- Restrict certain ‘iconic’ force powers to either Light Side or Dark Side. In this case, Force Heal could only be used by a LS Jedi, while Force Lightning could only be used by a DS Sith. Neutral players would not be able to use either.

- Restrict the final tier of force powers, eg Master Force Speed, Master Force Valour etc to Prestige classes only. This would show a much greater difference between Masters and Knights/Padawans.


Lightsabre crystals
- Give colour crystals small bonuses that reflect the Jedi/Sith that would be using them. These would be

Blue, Cyan = +1 Dexterity
Yellow, Orange = +1 Intelligence
Green, Veridian = +1 Wisdom
Red, Purple = +1 Strength
Silver, Bronze etc = +1 Charisma


Loadout
- Party Members should have to load up on weapons/items before leaving the Hawk or whatever base you are using at the time, and then have no access to any other weapon you have picked up previously once you leave your base, much like the system used in Jedi Academy. However, if you picked up items while travelling, they would all be accessible to your party members.

- Add more weapon-carriage places for party members, such as Pistol Holsters (thighs) and a backstrap for Blades, Rifles etc.

- Allow party members to carry 'holdout blaster's' on their arms, where Energy Shields are carried, much like Mira's rocket launcher. At present, 'Holdout' blasters are useless because they are simply not powerful enough, especially considering there are many much more powerful pistols out there.


NPC reaction to player’s clothes
- NPC’s should react to what the player is wearing, which currently does not happen. For example, an NPC will react exactly the same to you regardless of whether you are wearing Dark Jedi robes with a Red double-bladed lightsabre, or wearing Jedi robes with a Blue or Green lightsabre. This would be similar to how NPC’s react to you on Taris in KotOR if you are wearing the Sith Uniform or not.


Random Item placement
- All unique items, such as Onasi Blaster, Jolee’s Robes etc should be non-random.

- Shopkeepers and items should be divided into levels. For example, a level 1 shopkeeper would stock very basic items, but they would be completely random basic items. To the same extent, a high level shopkeeper would stock only the best items, but would have randomised selections of the best items.

- All other loot etc should be random, but in keeping with where the loot is coming from. For example, Dark Jedi wielding Red lightsabre’s shouldn’t drop Jedi robes and Blue/Green sabres.


Swoop racing
- Enable player to purchase or choose a swoop bike at the start of the game. Bikes could come in combinations of average acceleration/average top speed, poor acceleration/good top speed, good acceleration/poor top speed etc.

- Allow Swoop bike upgrades to be purchased.

- Enable swoop bike ‘tuning’ to fit them better to each track.


Weapons
- Add Sniper rifles. These would have a very long range and high power, but ineffective at short range and a long time between shots. Effectively, they would be at one extreme, with blaster Rifles in the middle, and Repeating blasters at the other end. This would also lend different attack feats to different weapons. Power Blast would be very useful for Sniper rifles while Rapid Shot would suit Repeating blasters more by accentuating their strengths.

- Add Assault Rifles. Especially rifles similar to modern weapons such as the M-16/M-203 combination. This would allow NPC’s to launch grenades and darts from their weapons much like Mira’s rocket launcher in KotOR2 instead of having to throw them.

- Re-introduce Heavy Weapons feats for Repeating blasters and Sniper blasters.


Workbench
- Allow player to build all basic weapon types eg. Vibro-blades, blaster pistols, blaster rifles, Lightsabre’s etc.

- To be able to build basic weapons, player should have to break down one example first with no components received in order to learn how to build that type of weapon.


Thoughts?

stingerhs
12-09-2005, 02:17 AM
definately a number of great ideas there, but there are a couple that i have issues with:
Attacks
- Player should be able to chose default attack for all NPC party members and self. For example, player could choose a party member to use Flurry as their default attack, which that character would use without any external input.well, i think that having a charater use the default attack is more than adequate as the other feats such as Flurry and Critical Strike also have a couple of penalties that can be quite negative against certain opponents. in this case, i think that just having a smarter AI that recognizes the enemy its facing and then use the appropriate attack would be a much better way of doing it.- Jedi Master should be renamed Jedi Force Master, while Sith Lord should be renamed. These titles are indicative of Rank, not ‘path’. For example, irrespective of what class you are, you will still be either a Jedi Master or Sith Lord.well, i'm not quite so sure on this one. i can understand where you're coming from, but i think the names are fine the way they are. in this case, i think its more of a matter of taste than anything.Force Powers
- Restrict certain ‘iconic’ force powers to either Light Side or Dark Side. In this case, Force Heal could only be used by a LS Jedi, while Force Lightning could only be used by a DS Sith. Neutral players would not be able to use either.i highly disagree on this one. the current system, although slightly flawed, works quite well. if anything, the Force Point penalties should be more on a 'by-point' system where your dark/light alignment number would be the penalty number multiplied by the level of the power. ie, a LS character with 27 LS points would recieve a 54 point penalty for using Force Lightning (Level 2 DS power). and a full lightside user would (50 lightside points) would be penalized 100 Force Points for using Force Lightning, and 150 Force Points for Force Storm. this way, you can use it, but it will cost you.- Restrict the final tier of force powers, eg Master Force Speed, Master Force Valour etc to Prestige classes only. This would show a much greater difference between Masters and Knights/Padawans.well, i'm not too sure on this one. sure, it would make those powers more exclusive, but if they use the TSL system, only the PC would be able to use those high tier powers. in that case, i definately don't agree as it severely limits the capabilities of your party members.- Impose LS/DS alignment modifiers on different types of Lightsabre much like the current system in use with Force powers, with positive or negative modifiers for attack strength and hit rating. Double-bladed sabres would give bonuses to DS characters, with negative modifiers for LS players. Two single-bladed lightsabres would have the same modifiers in reverse, giving bonuses for LS and negative modifiers for DS. Single-bladed lightsabres would have no modifiers.although this goes well with the movies, it doesn't go too well with the Kotor series. most of the Kotor-era is a lot of uncharted territory. thus, it can be perfectly plausible to have LS Jedi Masters that have extensive knowledge about different fighting styles and weapons. and, not to mention, that would add a bit of complexity to the game that a number of more casual players wouldn't go over well with.

Darth Windu
12-09-2005, 06:15 AM
well, i think that having a charater use the default attack is more than adequate as the other feats such as Flurry and Critical Strike also have a couple of penalties that can be quite negative against certain opponents. in this case, i think that just having a smarter AI that recognizes the enemy its facing and then use the appropriate attack would be a much better way of doing it.

True enough. I suppose either way would work, It's just a bit irritating having to constantly micro-manage your party members in battle, and rather frustrating when they use normal attack instead of attack feats.

well, i'm not quite so sure on this one. i can understand where you're coming from, but i think the names are fine the way they are. in this case, i think its more of a matter of taste than anything.

The main thing here is, as I said, Jedi Master and Sith Lord are ranks and titles. After all, Darth Maul was a Sith Lord, yet in TSL he would probably be a Marauder. All I want are slight name changes to reflect this.

i highly disagree on this one. the current system, although slightly flawed, works quite well. if anything, the Force Point penalties should be more on a 'by-point' system where your dark/light alignment number would be the penalty number multiplied by the level of the power. ie, a LS character with 27 LS points would recieve a 54 point penalty for using Force Lightning (Level 2 DS power). and a full lightside user would (50 lightside points) would be penalized 100 Force Points for using Force Lightning, and 150 Force Points for Force Storm. this way, you can use it, but it will cost you.

I get the whole LS/DS penalty system, and to an extent it works. I just have a problem with LS Jedi using Force Lightning, which isn't all that costly if you have a high Charisma. I don't really have a problem with any other powers, but I would like one 'icon' power for each side set aside to create a bit more of a difference between LS and DS which seems to be lacking.

well, i'm not too sure on this one. sure, it would make those powers more exclusive, but if they use the TSL system, only the PC would be able to use those high tier powers. in that case, i definately don't agree as it severely limits the capabilities of your party members.

True, but I'm not talking about TSL :). I'd envisage some party members starting off as Jedi as well, and also becoming a prestige class, much like my idea for non-Jedi Prestige classes. This would also force the player to really think, do I want a Jedi Sentinel with slightly weaker force powers than normal, or do I want a Commando?

although this goes well with the movies, it doesn't go too well with the Kotor series. most of the Kotor-era is a lot of uncharted territory. thus, it can be perfectly plausible to have LS Jedi Masters that have extensive knowledge about different fighting styles and weapons. and, not to mention, that would add a bit of complexity to the game that a number of more casual players wouldn't go over well with.

This is another one of my 'more of a difference between LS and DS' things. As I said, it's not like I'd be restricting certain lightsabres to LS or DS, just using modifiers. This would be the same sorta thing as the current force power modifiers, so for example a fully DS player would get more use out of a double-bladed sabre than a LS player would, yet they could both still use it.

RobQel-Droma
12-09-2005, 10:40 AM
Attacks
- Player should be able to chose default attack for all NPC party members and self. For example, player could choose a party member to use Flurry as their default attack, which that character would use without any external input.

I don't think so. It would be better if the AI racked up the attacks themselves, because it is not always good for a party member to use the same special attack all the time on everyone when you don't control them. The AI that is controlling them does a good job, it racks up force powers and a range of attacks by itself.

Classes
- Non-Jedi Prestige classes should be introduced. These would be Soldier --> Bounty Hunter, Scout --> Commando, and Scoundrel --> Smuggler. These classes would give access to various feats/abilities similar to those obtained in the Jedi Prestige classes. For example, the Bounty Hunter ~snip~

Good idea, I have thought about this too. Except that Scout should go into something like Ranger if it is LS, and Soldier should go into Commando for LS and Bounty Hunter for DS. (I should think that they should make non-Jedi prestiege classes that are based on alignment too).

- Jedi Master should be renamed Jedi Force Master, while Sith Lord should be renamed. These titles are indicative of Rank, not ‘path’. For example, irrespective of what class you are, you will still be either a Jedi Master or Sith Lord.


I have thought about that too, and it annoyed me a little bit, but I don't really care. It is fine for me if they stick with it or not.

Force Powers
- Restrict certain ‘iconic’ force powers to either Light Side or Dark Side. In this case, Force Heal could only be used by a LS Jedi, while Force Lightning could only be used by a DS Sith. Neutral players would not be able to use either.

No. Not a good idea. Especially for neutral players. What you are saying is that grey Jedi can't use heal and can't use drain health. Do you realize how hard that would make it? And no, people love using stuff like Storm, even if they are LS. No way on this one, people wouldn't like it at all. The penalties are all that is needed.

Lightsabres
- Remove short lightsabres. They are for all intents and purposes useless.

- Impose LS/DS alignment modifiers on different types of Lightsabre much like the current system in use with Force powers, with positive or negative modifiers for attack strength and hit rating. Double-bladed sabres would give bonuses to DS characters, with negative modifiers for LS players.

Another no-no. Short lightsabers are used by many people, and they do have some purpose, regardless of what you think. They shouldn't just "get rid of it." As for the LS/DS saber thing, No. Absolutely not. If so, that means that Zez-Kai Ell must be DS for him to fight that well with a saberstaff. No, this would not make people happy either with this, they wouldn't be able to choose what they wanted. Wielding a saberstaff is about skill, not alignment. That should be what the penalties are based on.

The NPC reacting to clothes would be ok, I have thought about that too. They should think differently to a point depending on who you are.

Random Item placement
- All unique items, such as Onasi Blaster, Jolee’s Robes etc should be non-random.

- Shopkeepers and items should be divided into levels.

Completely agree with this, I want this too. No more getting several "name" items.

Swoop racing
- Enable player to purchase or choose a swoop bike at the start of the game. Bikes could come in combinations of average acceleration/average top speed, poor acceleration/good top speed, good acceleration/poor top speed etc.

- Allow Swoop bike upgrades to be purchased.

- Enable swoop bike ‘tuning’ to fit them better to each track.

Absolutely, I wanted this in K1 but it wasn't there. Have the different upgrades do things like increasing acceleration, increasing bike speed, improving handling, etc.

As for the last two on the workbench and the weapons I agree with that as well, I think that you should be able to construct those items. I also have wondered why there is no sniper rifle, at all. Maybe they could have it be good at critical attacks, and things like that, with an enormous attack bonus.

Darth Windu
12-09-2005, 11:34 PM
I don't think so. It would be better if the AI racked up the attacks themselves, because it is not always good for a party member to use the same special attack all the time on everyone when you don't control them. The AI that is controlling them does a good job, it racks up force powers and a range of attacks by itself.

The problem though is that at the moment, the AI doesn't do a good enough job of picking attacks all by itself. I've had times where, while fighting Darth Nihilus, Mandalore who has Master Power Blast will instead use normal attack.

Good idea, I have thought about this too. Except that Scout should go into something like Ranger if it is LS, and Soldier should go into Commando for LS and Bounty Hunter for DS. (I should think that they should make non-Jedi prestiege classes that are based on alignment too).

Good point, didn't even think about that. Thing is though, special forces are more scouts than soldiers. What other names could be used though?

No. Not a good idea. Especially for neutral players. What you are saying is that grey Jedi can't use heal and can't use drain health. Do you realize how hard that would make it? And no, people love using stuff like Storm, even if they are LS. No way on this one, people wouldn't like it at all. The penalties are all that is needed.

Not at all. Neutral players could still use every power except for Force Heal and Force Lightning. Aside from that, they could use all other powers with the same modifiers as they are at the moment. Sure, they would have a disadvantage by not being able to use those two poers, but the thing is that the force is either Light or Dark, you shouldn't be neutral and you'll have small penalties if you don't choose a side.

Another no-no. Short lightsabers are used by many people, and they do have some purpose, regardless of what you think. They shouldn't just "get rid of it." As for the LS/DS saber thing, No. Absolutely not. If so, that means that Zez-Kai Ell must be DS for him to fight that well with a saberstaff. No, this would not make people happy either with this, they wouldn't be able to choose what they wanted. Wielding a saberstaff is about skill, not alignment. That should be what the penalties are based on.

I still say short lightsabres are useless, unless you're Yoda. Especially in TSL, where attack bonuses go to insane proportions.

As for the DS/LS sabres, why not? They would not stop people choosing their weapons, a LS Master could still use a double-bladed sabre, while a DS Master could still use twin single-bladed sabres. However, there would be modifiers to make the double-blade a DS weapon, much like there are modifiers to make Force Drain Life a DS power. No difference.

RobQel-Droma
12-10-2005, 12:00 AM
Not at all. Neutral players could still use every power except for Force Heal and Force Lightning. Aside from that, they could use all other powers with the same modifiers as they are at the moment. Sure, they would have a disadvantage by not being able to use those two powers, but the thing is that the force is either Light or Dark, you shouldn't be neutral and you'll have small penalties if you don't choose a side.

But that still means that neutral players are seriously disadvantaged at force powers, which wouldn't be fair to those particular players. (You would pretty much be putting Jolee Bindo to shame, too). And it wouldn't make sense, either; it would be going against what a grey Jedi is. They are not Jedi, they are not Sith- usually the reason they are neutral is because of the fact that they see problems with both sides teachings. That means, they take parts from both that they see are worth keeping. In that case, why make it like they are some weak outcast kind of people? They draw from both sides.

I still say short lightsabres are useless, unless you're Yoda. Especially in TSL, where attack bonuses go to insane proportions.

To tell you the truth, I don't use them myself. But some people do, you know, regardless even if you say they are "useless." And their "uselessness" doesn't necessitate their removal from the game, you know. Some people actually use them, for one- and two, they should just be in their, they offer yet another weapon to wield.

As for the DS/LS sabres, why not? They would not stop people choosing their weapons, a LS Master could still use a double-bladed sabre, while a DS Master could still use twin single-bladed sabres. However, there would be modifiers to make the double-blade a DS weapon, much like there are modifiers to make Force Drain Life a DS power. No difference.

Not good at all, as I said. While this idea might be good with the Sith Saber on Korriban in K1, and Freedon Nadd's short saber in TSL, not with the regular sabers. As I said before, it isn't a matter of alignment; it is a matter of skill. And while this would not restrict people from choosing the sabers, it would discourage them from it. You need the choice to wield your favorite weapon, it would not be good to alienate people because you get stiff penalties to use that cool-looking saberstaff that they love to fight with. Besides, saberstaffs aren't really DS- while it says that they are "commonly associated" with the dark side, it doesn't mean that it itself is a tool of the dark side. It just says "commonly." Doesn't mean they actually are DS weapons.

YertyL
12-10-2005, 07:35 AM
.... As I said before, it isn't a matter of alignment; it is a matter of skill. And while this would not restrict people from choosing the sabers, it would discourage them from it. You need the choice to wield your favorite weapon, it would not be good to alienate people because you get stiff penalties to use that cool-looking saberstaff that they love to fight with. Besides, saberstaffs aren't really DS- while it says that they are "commonly associated" with the dark side, it doesn't mean that it itself is a tool of the dark side. It just says "commonly." Doesn't mean they actually are DS weapons.
I agree. I also cannot really see why 2 sabers should be LS while a double bladed saber is DS. Actually, (after trying it out a little :p ) IMO the double-bladed is the most passive weapon (little range), followed by the single saber as a medium and 2 sabers as a very aggressive variant (I think it is far harder to defend with 2 sabers, but you have so to speak twice the attack). (That is btw. also the way this is dealt with in the JK3 mod "Movie battles")

JediMaster12
12-10-2005, 11:23 AM
Attacks
- Player should be able to chose default attack for all NPC party members and self. For example, player could choose a party member to use Flurry as their default attack, which that character would use without any external input.

I thought the AI picking the attacks was just fine. When I pause to take a look I would find an interesting array of attacks.


Classes
- Non-Jedi Prestige classes should be introduced. These would be Soldier --> Bounty Hunter, Scout --> Commando, and Scoundrel --> Smuggler. These classes would give access to various feats/abilities similar to those obtained in the Jedi Prestige classes. For example, the Bounty Hunter would get the same extra two-weapon fighting and weapons proficiency feat options as the Jedi Weapon Master. These would also provide an option in terms of training NPC party members. Do you want to train a Soldier as a Jedi Guardian, or as a Bounty Hunter?

Good suggestion though I would have thought that a scout would more likely become a bounty hunter. But as was mentioned in a different post a consideration as to alignment LS/DS for each non jedi prestige class.


- Jedi Master should be renamed Jedi Force Master, while Sith Lord should be renamed. These titles are indicative of Rank, not ‘path’. For example, irrespective of what class you are, you will still be either a Jedi Master or Sith Lord.

Not sure what to make of it but it does have some merit.


Lightsabres
- Remove short lightsabres. They are for all intents and purposes useless.

They aren't totally useless. When playing TSL, I give available lightsabers to partymembers in the order they became Jedi. I've actually gotten some good attack bonuses with the short sabers, especially in the offhand.


NPC reaction to player’s clothes
- NPC’s should react to what the player is wearing, which currently does not happen. For example, an NPC will react exactly the same to you regardless of whether you are wearing Dark Jedi robes with a Red double-bladed lightsabre, or wearing Jedi robes with a Blue or Green lightsabre. This would be similar to how NPC’s react to you on Taris in KotOR if you are wearing the Sith Uniform or not.


Random Item placement
- All unique items, such as Onasi Blaster, Jolee’s Robes etc should be non-random.

- Shopkeepers and items should be divided into levels. For example, a level 1 shopkeeper would stock very basic items, but they would be completely random basic items. To the same extent, a high level shopkeeper would stock only the best items, but would have randomised selections of the best items.

- All other loot etc should be random, but in keeping with where the loot is coming from. For example, Dark Jedi wielding Red lightsabre’s shouldn’t drop Jedi robes and Blue/Green sabres.

What can I say to this except yes. I hate getting 4 of the same thing that comes from one place like the Onderon repeating rifle which I would get in a place like Korriban. The Shop thing, Taris was like that, the most basic stuff.

Jae Onasi
12-10-2005, 06:59 PM
I think the non-Jedi prestige classes could be really cool.
I'd love to be able to upgrade a swoop bike and get better times, though currently I just solve the problem by using Darth333's EZ swoop mod. :p
While I wouldn't want to eliminate LS using DS powers and vice versa, I do think the penalties should be increased. You could make certain uber-LS or uber-DS powers more expensive for neutrals to use, too.

Darth Windu
12-10-2005, 10:21 PM
But that still means that neutral players are seriously disadvantaged at force powers, which wouldn't be fair to those particular players. (You would pretty much be putting Jolee Bindo to shame, too). And it wouldn't make sense, either; it would be going against what a grey Jedi is. They are not Jedi, they are not Sith- usually the reason they are neutral is because of the fact that they see problems with both sides teachings. That means, they take parts from both that they see are worth keeping. In that case, why make it like they are some weak outcast kind of people? They draw from both sides.

Sure, neutral players would be disadvantaged, and so they should. As I said, the Force is LS or DS - you need to choose. As for Jolee, although he claimed to be neutral, from his actions you can tell that he is in fact LS, whereas Kreia who claims to be neutral is actually DS.

Not good at all, as I said. While this idea might be good with the Sith Saber on Korriban in K1, and Freedon Nadd's short saber in TSL, not with the regular sabers. As I said before, it isn't a matter of alignment; it is a matter of skill. And while this would not restrict people from choosing the sabers, it would discourage them from it. You need the choice to wield your favorite weapon, it would not be good to alienate people because you get stiff penalties to use that cool-looking saberstaff that they love to fight with. Besides, saberstaffs aren't really DS- while it says that they are "commonly associated" with the dark side, it doesn't mean that it itself is a tool of the dark side. It just says "commonly." Doesn't mean they actually are DS weapons.

Okay then, lets look at the films
- Dath Maul - Double-blade
- Anakin - twin single-blades
- Serra Something (RotS game) - twin single-blades
- Arena Jedi (AotC) - three or four Jedi with twin single-blades

Fact is that Jedi are never seen with a double-blade, while the Sith are never seen with twin single-blades. Besides, do you have a problem with the penalties for force powers? It would be Exactly the same thing with what im proposing for weapons.

kevinmitchell
12-11-2005, 12:03 PM
IDEAS 4 KOTOR 3 - U begin as a Jedi/Sith, already trained in the arts. Ready to embark on the journey of becoming a Master – but u need guidance and further training but u can already handle ur self – ur a rogue Jedi, oozing potential but require much needed guidance and to find purpose again. The galaxy is over run by evil, ur an outcast of the galaxy long forgotten, but still feared by those who remember the forgotten stories. Once again u can choose light / dark. Character customisation should be key (I can not stress this enough just go mad on the character customization other wise u get board of looking at urself). U should be able to customize, ur face, body, stance, dress as much as possible even ur species!!, as well as weapons and even voice. Skills feats and force light/dark should effect, ur movement ur stance, ur attack and defensive abilities as well as force devastation, we wanna see real facial mutation as a result of being evil, and movement like darth maul if ur heavily skilled in combat. We wanna see better clothing, we wanna see cloaks with hoods that hide ur face, and there should be a button to toggle hood up and down, as we as to toggle sabre on or off. Combine this with the story line of kotor 1 and the world detail moment capabilities of darth maul in battlefront 2. Kotor3 needs a drastically improved combat engine also. We also need some cool bady and goody chrators - with defining characteristics, and movements and improved interactions with ur environment. Maybe other skilled jedi/sith can teach you there moves so u can add them to ur own. I love the fact that u can play around with ur lightsaber even when not in battle - more of this please, let the character show off his skills in bars and clubs, have intimidation and respect as feats as well as persuasion this can affect conversations and may even say u from even having to fight because ur that feared - Also we wanna see, limbs cut of by sabers and decapitations and death moves with a saber - through all of this into 1 almightily kotor three and ur blow people minds. Cheers for listening Kevin Mitchell.

Darth Windu
12-12-2005, 01:27 AM
Kevin - that probably belongs in a thread all by itself. This one is just for gameplay ideas, not storyline etc.

RobQel-Droma
12-12-2005, 01:51 AM
Fact is that Jedi are never seen with a double-blade, while the Sith are never seen with twin single-blades.

Ummm.... Wrong. Absolutely wrong with the "never seen" stuff. How about we look at some other characters, shall I? For the Jedi:
Zez-Kai Ell - Saberstaff
Bastila Shan - Saberstaff

Now for the Sith:
Asajj Ventress: Dual Sabers.
Several Dark Jedi and Sith Masters in KotOR and TSL: Dual Sabers.

So you can't really base it on usage, can you? Several from each sides have used the opposites of what you say, so that really isn't reliable. And just in case you start about these things: 1) Bastila Shan started using the Saberstaff when she was LS, and especially if you turned her back in K1 she kept using it, and 2) Asajj could use her sabers to form a saberstaff, but normally/mostly, she used them in the dual configuration. So you are wrong about "never."

Besides, a lightsaber is a tool, not a force-filled Jedi/Sith artifact, unless it was something like Nadd's short lightsaber. It wouldn't make sense, because many of the sabers built are personalized by the person who built them, and it wasn't based on alignment, just whatever the character wanted. You can't lump them in a broad category and say a certain type is "dark", and another type is "light."

Sure, neutral players would be disadvantaged, and so they should. As I said, the Force is LS or DS - you need to choose. As for Jolee, although he claimed to be neutral, from his actions you can tell that he is in fact LS, whereas Kreia who claims to be neutral is actually DS.

Maybe I am wrong, but it sounds like you have something against neutral players, or don't like the idea of grey Jedi. Because if so, that is a pretty poor thing to base this on, if it is just because you don't like it; some people do, and you would not be making them happy just because you didn't like the idea.

Secondly, if what you are saying is true, that Jolee and Kreia all are really LS and DS, that even if you level yourself out you are still in fact on one side or the other, then: Why even use your idea, if there really is no "true" grey Jedi who are neither LS or DS? What would be the point, if no one really is in fact a neutral Jedi?

LegendaryFett
12-12-2005, 03:35 AM
NPC's should definately react to what you are wearing, if you are dressed as a jedi then you should be respected as a jedi, if you are dressed as a mandalorian you should be feared/acknowlegded as one.

Whlie being a jedi is cool, being a bounty hunter, and learning their special feats is better.

RedHawke
12-12-2005, 04:33 AM
Whlie being a jedi is cool, being a bounty hunter, and learning their special feats is better.
But the game isn't Bounty Hunters of the Old Republic now is it? ;)

RobQel-Droma
12-12-2005, 11:36 AM
But the game isn't Bounty Hunters of the Old Republic now is it?

Quoted for emphasis! :D

Besides, I disagree with it being better to be a bounty hunter. Maybe if you are Sith, or not a force-user yet, but no otherwise...

JediMaster12
12-12-2005, 12:04 PM
So you can't really base it on usage, can you? Several from each sides have used the opposites of what you say, so that really isn't reliable. And just in case you start about these things: 1) Bastila Shan started using the Saberstaff when she was LS, and especially if you turned her back in K1 she kept using it, and 2) Asajj could use her sabers to form a saberstaff, but normally/mostly, she used them in the dual configuration. So you are wrong about "never."

Really I think you should use whatever rocks your boat.

Darth Windu
12-13-2005, 06:15 AM
Rob - I was actually talking about the films, not EU.

Fett, Hawke - Remember, the player would have to be Jedi, only party members could be a Bounty Hunter.

Jedi - sure, it's just like force powers - you can use whatever you want, but there are LS/DS modifiers.

IndianaSolo
12-13-2005, 02:12 PM
NPC reaction to player’s clothes
- NPC’s should react to what the player is wearing, which currently does not happen. For example, an NPC will react exactly the same to you regardless of whether you are wearing Dark Jedi robes with a Red double-bladed lightsabre, or wearing Jedi robes with a Blue or Green lightsabre. This would be similar to how NPC’s react to you on Taris in KotOR if you are wearing the Sith Uniform or not.

Some of the ideas are good, but this one I just wanted to comment on.

On the face of it, I like the idea. But I think it would be incredibly difficult to implement, considering the vast amount of different clothes you can equip over the course of a game.

It worked on Taris because all they had to code was (I'm simplifying, but you get the point) "Sith uniform=yes, any other uniform=no". In other words all the game had to do was see if you were wearing a Sith uniform. In your suggestion, it would have to determine your outfit, your lightsaber, etc. and how they all correlate to the given planet's alignment.

3yks
12-13-2005, 07:45 PM
Your whole 'force is ls/ds' thing is wrong, as has been made clear in the new jedi order era, the force IS NOT Ls or DS, the actions you take can be evil or good, but the unifying force is without light or dark side, it's simply that through emotion the force is easier to tap into. Maybe you don't take the books as cannon, but that's your problem.

IndianaSolo
12-13-2005, 08:05 PM
Your whole 'force is ls/ds' thing is wrong, as has been made clear in the new jedi order era, the force IS NOT Ls or DS, the actions you take can be evil or good, but the unifying force is without light or dark side, it's simply that through emotion the force is easier to tap into. Maybe you don't take the books as cannon, but that's your problem.

Actually it appears they're going away from that in the newest novels and that once again there is a distinct LS vs. DS action, regardless of intent.

If you don't believe that, check out the Dark Nest books and Luke's view that they may have erred in their thinking about the NJO way of thinking.

RobQel-Droma
12-13-2005, 08:58 PM
Rob - I was actually talking about the films, not EU.

Um, Darth Windu, Serra whatshername isn't in the movies, she is in the games- so why are saying you were only talking about from the movies?

Secondly, we aren't talking about the movies, we are talking about an EU game. So, since we are playing an EU game, that is why I took a look at some EU characters. That would make sense, wouldn't it? Especially when those characters I brought up are from that particular game?

lukeiamyourdad
12-13-2005, 11:20 PM
Secondly, we aren't talking about the movies, we are talking about an EU game. So, since we are playing an EU game, that is why I took a look at some EU characters. That would make sense, wouldn't it? Especially when those characters I brought up are from that particular game?

*quoted for emphasis

It would be weird to have double-bladed LS Jedi in both first games just to see them being disadvantaged in the third one.

I'm a double-bladed hilt user and a LS. I would in no way want a penalty when I'm using my double-bladed saber.

Darth Windu
12-13-2005, 11:24 PM
Rob - even ignoring whatshername, the fact is that the Sith are seen with Single-blades and double-blades, while Jedi are seen with single-blades and two single-blades. As I have also said, this would in no way restrict a LS player from using a double-blade, much like being LS doesnt restrict players from using Drain Life etc. Did I mention the modifiers, like force power modifiers would be modified by your Charisma?

Solo - quite true, but really i'd be more looking at it as a 'Good, Bad, Neytral' thing. So if you're wearing Jedi stuff, you're good, if you're wearing Sith stuff, your bad, and if you're not wearing either, you're neutral. To be good/bad/neutral, i image each type of clothing would have its own 'ranking' in terms of LS/DS which would determine how you're percieved. The main reason i came up with this is especially on Korriban in KotOR, there you are in a Sith academy wearing Jedi robes and using Blue and Green Lightsabres, and no-one thinks 'gee, maybe they're Jedi?'

3kys - Lucas says its LS/DS. Enough said.

lukeiamyourdad
12-13-2005, 11:40 PM
Rob - even ignoring whatshername, the fact is that the Sith are seen with Single-blades and double-blades, while Jedi are seen with single-blades and two single-blades. As I have also said, this would in no way restrict a LS player from using a double-blade, much like being LS doesnt restrict players from using Drain Life etc. Did I mention the modifiers, like force power modifiers would be modified by your Charisma?

Modifiers =/= no penalties. You're proposing penalties that simply wouldn't go in well.
Again, we see LS Jedi using double-bladed sabers without trouble in the first two games, why would we need penalties in a third one?
Penalties are made to be deterrents, to make you opt for something else, something with bonuses or without disadvantages. This makes perfect sense in the case of Force powers.
Sabers are another subject however as saber skill isn't fueled by the Dark Side or the Light Side.

I think it is rather dumb to try and apply movie cannon to an RPG that is set 4000 years before the Prequels.

a_nazgul
12-13-2005, 11:46 PM
Those are great ideas, but I dont agree with some of the names you sugested for the prestige class, "Bounty Hunter" gives me a negative feeling, almost an outlaw.
"Jedi Force Master" is a senseless name.
I'm agaist penalities for double-bladed sabers for LS, I think that Bastila is(was) a Jedi, at least at the begining, and she used a double saber.
Colour Crystals shoud have bonuses to the differents paths they represent, a blue crystal shoud give some bonus for saber combat, for example.

Darth Windu
12-13-2005, 11:50 PM
Modifiers =/= no penalties. You're proposing penalties that simply wouldn't go in well.
Again, we see LS Jedi using double-bladed sabers without trouble in the first two games, why would we need penalties in a third one?

Why did we need to be able to upgrade normal Blaster Rifles and Vibro-blades in the second one? Why did we need Influence in the second one? If we had a KotOR series that didn't change anything except the story and characters, how long do you think it would last?

Penalties are made to be deterrents, to make you opt for something else, something with bonuses or without disadvantages. This makes perfect sense in the case of Force powers.
Sabers are another subject however as saber skill isn't fueled by the Dark Side or the Light Side.

Says you. Where is your evidence? As I have already pointed out, in the films double-blades weapons are used by the Sith while twin single-blades are used by Jedi.

I think it is rather dumb to try and apply movie cannon to an RPG that is set 4000 years before the Prequels.

lol, and I think it's dumb not to apply movie cannon to the series. What's your point?

Nazgul - If 'Jedi Force Master' is a senseless name, then isn't 'Jedi Weapon Master' also? I actually had an idea regarding colour crystals, but I was thinking more along the lines of 'Blue = +1 Dexterity, Yellow = +1 Intelligence, Green = +1 Wisdom, Red = +1 Strength, others = +1 Charisma'.


On a different topic, I've done some thinking on Rob's suggestion that there ey LS/DS non-Jedi Prestige classes. This is what I've come up with.
- Soldier --> Peacekeeper (LS) / Mercenary (DS)
- Scout --> Commando (LS) / Bounty Hunter (DS)
- Scoundrel --> Smuggler (LS) / Slaver (DS)

Thoughts?

a_nazgul
12-14-2005, 12:19 AM
You're right 'Jedi Weapon Master' sucks, but I really dont care too much about names, it was just a commentary, so dont give it too much importance.
About the crystals and the LS/DS non-Jedi prstige classes, I agree

RedHawke
12-14-2005, 12:20 AM
Hawke - Remember, the player would have to be Jedi, only party members could be a Bounty Hunter.
:eyeraise: Windu, I wasn't talking to you. See I quoted LegendaryFett's post. ;)

The main reason i came up with this is especially on Korriban in KotOR, there you are in a Sith academy wearing Jedi robes and using Blue and Green Lightsabres, and no-one thinks 'gee, maybe they're Jedi?'
This is easily explained, as you are a Jedi, Yuthura even states something recognising you to that effect, remember that in KotOR I many Jedi had went to the Sith side, so having a Jedi training at the Sith Academy on Korriban wasn't all that unusual. Quite clever on Biowares part using a story point to save themselves some work, IMHO. :)

Says you. Where is your evidence? As I have already pointed out, in the films double-blades weapons are used by the Sith while twin single-blades are used by Jedi.
Well, as far as the Saber Staff being a DS weapon, I might not be LIAYD, but my evidence is clear... The D20 Rules.

There are no penalties or restrictions to using any type of Lightsaber in the D20 rules. So the makers of KotOR III will also have to use these rules. ;)

lukeiamyourdad
12-14-2005, 12:37 AM
Why did we need to be able to upgrade normal Blaster Rifles and Vibro-blades in the second one? Why did we need Influence in the second one? If we had a KotOR series that didn't change anything except the story and characters, how long do you think it would last?

Totally different stories. Since when does upgrading weapons is equal with disadvantaging LS double-bladed saber users?

Besides, "it's a change for gameplay" is a poor explanation as to why we see many Jedi use double-blades in the first games and then poof, they shouldn't use it anymore.

Says you. Where is your evidence? As I have already pointed out, in the films double-blades weapons are used by the Sith while twin single-blades are used by Jedi.

Ok, so where is the evidence that the Dark Side fuels double-bladed saber skill? We see only one Dark Sider use it. Note one.


lol, and I think it's dumb not to apply movie cannon to the series. What's your point?

It's 4000 years before. Things change in 4000 years. You simply cannot apply cannon by the letter. Oh and by the way, if you really want to apply cannon by the letter, there should be two Sith in the game. No more, no less.


By the way, considering how unpopular that idea is, it is obvious that it isn't the way to go.

3yks
12-14-2005, 01:14 AM
I have read the first of the new serie's, but jsut because luke 'thinks' they might have erred doesn't necissarily mean they HAVE erred.

And as for 'lucas says ... [insert anything here]' lucas hasn't said a thing since making RotJ that was worth one ioda of crap, next you're gonna claim that the ep1-3 are good movies.

lukeiamyourdad
12-14-2005, 01:21 AM
next you're gonna claim that the ep1-3 are good movies.

You don't want to say that to Windu ;)

RobQel-Droma
12-14-2005, 01:24 AM
A pure, unaltered, simple double-bladed lightsaber has no DS tendencies. It is not a sentient being, and it is not an artifact of the darkside. So why apply penalties to it like it is?

Wielding one is a matter of skill, not of alignment. It has nothing to do with your alignment, unless you are drawing from a certain side of the force, and that has nothing to do with the weapon.

Says you. Where is your evidence? As I have already pointed out, in the films double-blades weapons are used by the Sith while twin single-blades are used by Jedi.

Since when does that have any relevance with what we are talking about? As LIAYD and I have already pointed out, it has nothing to do with an EU game, especially one that is 4000 years before the movies. So what, in the movies you see about 4 total Sith Lords- with only one of them wielding a saberstaff.

Come on, in TSL you have Sith Assassins wielding metal sticks and you wielding that mining laser torch thingy (the one you get from the corpse in the Peragus Morgue). And Sith Assassins are never seen wielding anything but metal sticks, and you never see anyone else in the game wielding that torch weapon either. And does that mean that sticks are DS weapons, and mining torches are LS? :xp: Absolutely not.

next you're gonna claim that the ep1-3 are good movies.

I don't know about you, but I actually liked them.

Darth Windu
12-14-2005, 03:37 AM
Totally different stories. Since when does upgrading weapons is equal with disadvantaging LS double-bladed saber users?
Never said it had anything to do with it. The point I was making was that just because something wasn't in the previous game doesn't make it a bad idea, which you seemed to be implying was the case.

Besides, "it's a change for gameplay" is a poor explanation as to why we see many Jedi use double-blades in the first games and then poof, they shouldn't use it anymore.
*sigh* how many times do I have to explain the same thing? LS uses could still use the double-blade, while DS users could still use twin blades. Same as LS users using DS powers and vice versa.

Ok, so where is the evidence that the Dark Side fuels double-bladed saber skill? We see only one Dark Sider use it. Note one.
Never said the DS fuels double-blades sabre skill, just that it was connected to DS users. As for evidence

Single-sabre users
- Jedi = too many to count
- Sith = three of four

Twin single-blade users
- Jedi = anywhere between 3 and 5
- Sith = None

Double-blade users
- Jedi = None
- Sith = 1 of 4

Seems pretty clear to me.

It's 4000 years before. Things change in 4000 years. You simply cannot apply cannon by the letter. Oh and by the way, if you really want to apply cannon by the letter, there should be two Sith in the game. No more, no less.
Yep, things change. Thats why weapons, ships, propulsion technologies etc are all the same 4000 years later. As for two Sith, the games do actually abide by that. We have

Reven and Malak
Malak and Bandon
Traya and Sion
Sion and Nihilus
Traya and Sion

By the way, considering how unpopular that idea is, it is obvious that it isn't the way to go.
Just because it isn't popular doesn't make it a bad idea.


3yks - actually, I think RotS is the best out of the six films. As for what Lucas says, that is opinion, not fact. Irrespective of what you think of him, Lucas = Star Wars.

A pure, unaltered, simple double-bladed lightsaber has no DS tendencies. It is not a sentient being, and it is not an artifact of the darkside. So why apply penalties to it like it is?

Wielding one is a matter of skill, not of alignment. It has nothing to do with your alignment, unless you are drawing from a certain side of the force, and that has nothing to do with the weapon.
I agree, to wield one you need not be LS or DS. However, the double-blade is, even as Atton points out, a more aggressive weapon that is designed primarily to destroy, not protect. Hence, it is a weapon more in tune with the DS, and so the more DS you are, the more use you will get out of it.

Come on, in TSL you have Sith Assassins wielding metal sticks and you wielding that mining laser torch thingy (the one you get from the corpse in the Peragus Morgue). And Sith Assassins are never seen wielding anything but metal sticks, and you never see anyone else in the game wielding that torch weapon either. And does that mean that sticks are DS weapons, and mining torches are LS? Absolutely not.
Irrelevant. The Lightsabre is the weapon of a Jedi, as Obi-Wan points out. All other weapons are just tools.

lukeiamyourdad
12-14-2005, 11:33 AM
Never said it had anything to do with it. The point I was making was that just because something wasn't in the previous game doesn't make it a bad idea, which you seemed to be implying was the case.

No, I'm implying the inconsistency of your idea.


*sigh* how many times do I have to explain the same thing? LS uses could still use the double-blade, while DS users could still use twin blades. Same as LS users using DS powers and vice versa.

*sigh* How many times do I have to explain that we don't want penalties to double-bladed LS saberists.


Never said the DS fuels double-blades sabre skill, just that it was connected to DS users. As for evidence

Single-sabre users
- Jedi = too many to count
- Sith = three of four

Twin single-blade users
- Jedi = anywhere between 3 and 5
- Sith = None

Double-blade users
- Jedi = None
- Sith = 1 of 4

Seems pretty clear to me.

No it isn't. Double-blades don't seem fit to deflect blaster bolts like a single blade. The arena, that shows dual wielding Jedi, might have contained double-bladed saberists who only used one of the two sides of their sabers.
Besides, there is no solid base that double-bladed sabers are only used by Sith.
By the way, it's one Sith. Such a vast generalization is woefully unscientific.


Yep, things change. Thats why weapons, ships, propulsion technologies etc are all the same 4000 years later. As for two Sith, the games do actually abide by that. We have

Reven and Malak
Malak and Bandon
Traya and Sion
Sion and Nihilus
Traya and Sion

Hah, weird how you only fought a total of 5 saber wielding Sith in the whole two games.
What was on Korriban? An academy full of Sith :eek:!



Just because it isn't popular doesn't make it a bad idea.

Usually yes. Marketing says so.




I agree, to wield one you need not be LS or DS. However, the double-blade is, even as Atton points out, a more aggressive weapon that is designed primarily to destroy, not protect. Hence, it is a weapon more in tune with the DS, and so the more DS you are, the more use you will get out of it.

It was more a question of game mechanics. The double blade does more damage.
We can go as far as saying that two single blades are just as aggressive.



Irrelevant. The Lightsabre is the weapon of a Jedi, as Obi-Wan points out. All other weapons are just tools.

How is it irrelevent? He pointed how our logic was actually quite flawed.

RobQel-Droma
12-14-2005, 12:09 PM
Irrelevant. The Lightsabre is the weapon of a Jedi, as Obi-Wan points out. All other weapons are just tools.

On the contrary, I think it is quite relevant. You are basing it on usage, so did I. In KotOR, most of the weapons/items that are said to be DS or LS, as far as restrictions especially, isn't the lightsaber. Most of them are robes and vibroblades, in fact- not lightsabers. So it is in fact very relevant.

Single-sabre users
- Jedi = too many to count
- Sith = three of four

Twin single-blade users
- Jedi = anywhere between 3 and 5
- Sith = None

Double-blade users
- Jedi = None
- Sith = 1 of 4

Seems pretty clear to me.
.

*sigh* How many times do we have to tell you that it doesn't matter about the movies? This is KotOR, EU, 4000 years before Luke. Instead of 2 Sith we have 100+ plus Sith, and we have 100+ Mandalorians instead of one, etc. It doesn't matter. Many Sith in KotOR use dual blades, and same with the Jedi.

You have ignored this so many times- We are playing KotOR, and in KotOR people use the saberstaff and dual sabers, even to the opposite of the alignment you give them. So why go on about the movies, this is KotOR, and in KotOR LS Jedi use the saberstaff, and DS Sith use dual sabers- A fact which you fail to realize.

I don't care if Sith used water balloon launchers and the Jedi used golf clubs in the movies, and neither should you. This is KotOR, as I have said countless times. Stop basing it on the movies! I could give you way more examples as to force-users using the "wrong" saber type than you can give me using the "right" saber type. And since this is EU, it doesn't mean what you are saying about the movies; Not that is irrelevant

YertyL
12-14-2005, 01:15 PM
Never said the DS fuels double-blades sabre skill, just that it was connected to DS users. As for evidence

Single-sabre users
- Jedi = too many to count
- Sith = three of four

Twin single-blade users
- Jedi = anywhere between 3 and 5
- Sith = None

Double-blade users
- Jedi = None
- Sith = 1 of 4

Seems pretty clear to me.
Perhaps you should not base a general rule on a single observation .... would you say "All swans are black" after seeing one of this kind?
I believe the main reason why we do not see too many jedi using a double bladed saber is that it is difficult to construct and to master, requiring a lot of focus on martial skills, while most jedi prefer to focus on other things and follow the ideal of pacifism.
However this IMHO does not make the construction or use of a double-bladed saber DS - just like being a guardian/weaponsmaster does not make you DS.


I agree, to wield one you need not be LS or DS. However, the double-blade is, even as Atton points out, a more aggressive weapon that is designed primarily to destroy, not protect. Hence, it is a weapon more in tune with the DS, and so the more DS you are, the more use you will get out of it.

Irrelevant. The Lightsabre is the weapon of a Jedi, as Obi-Wan points out. All other weapons are just tools.

Again, all I can say is "Try it out!" :p
IMO the lesser range and steadier grip make the double-bladed saber better for parrying than attacking, while it is pretty hard to parry with 2 sabers, forcing you to attack rapidly in order to not grant the opponent an opportunity to strike.
Btw. I also think the way double-bladed sabers (and other double-bladed weapons) are handled in the KOTOR games are not too representative ... IMHO the stats should be more like +1 attack, -2 attack malus, +2 defense or something like that...

JediMaster12
12-14-2005, 03:44 PM
Leave the lightsabers alone PLEASE!!! I like them just the way they are however I do like the idea of the colored crystals giving bonus to attributes. The support crystals do something similar to the hit and damage bonus. :dsaber:

Darth Windu
12-14-2005, 09:57 PM
*sigh* How many times do I have to explain that we don't want penalties to double-bladed LS saberists.
Perhaps. But then politics shows us that people will many times say they don't want something simply because they are afraid of change, and then find out they like it. Aside from that, only a very small sample has said no.

No it isn't. Double-blades don't seem fit to deflect blaster bolts like a single blade. The arena, that shows dual wielding Jedi, might have contained double-bladed saberists who only used one of the two sides of their sabers.
Besides, there is no solid base that double-bladed sabers are only used by Sith.
By the way, it's one Sith. Such a vast generalization is woefully unscientific.
Your point about deflecting blaster bolts is exactly my point - the double blade isn't defensive, it is aggressive, which is why it is more in-tune with the DS. As for the arena Jedi, show me a single example of a Jedi using a double bladed lightsabre and I will concede the point. Even if they aren't using both sides, the hilt is quite a bit longer so it should be easy enough to find.

Hah, weird how you only fought a total of 5 saber wielding Sith in the whole two games.
What was on Korriban? An academy full of Sith :eek:!
and seeing as how I'm a purist, you can tell how much that annoyed me. Really though, they weren't Sith - they were bad Jedi.

How is it irrelevent? He pointed how our logic was actually quite flawed.
It's irrelevant because they aren't lightsabres, which are intricately tied to force users. Other weapons are not.

Stop basing it on the movies!
What?!?!?!?!?!?! Um, let me think about that for a second - no. EVERYTHING in Star Wars is based on the films. If you don't like it I suggest you get over it.

If you can show me a single piece of evidence from the films that says I'm wrong, then show me where it is and, as I said to luke, I will remove this idea and never speak of it again.

Just looked at the starwars.com Datbank, which specifically calls the double-blade the "Sith Lightsabre". Link is http://www.starwars.com/databank/technology/sithlightsaber/index.html

Also says that it was only seen in TPM so luke, I doubt you'll find any Jedi using it in the arean.

Finally - still looking for comments about my other ideas, such as the new LS/DS names for non-Jedi Prestige classes.

lukeiamyourdad
12-14-2005, 10:16 PM
Perhaps. But then politics shows us that people will many times say they don't want something simply because they are afraid of change, and then find out they like it. Aside from that, only a very small sample has said no.

Actually, a lot of people said no, and if you look at the history of the double blade in games, they have rarely been exclusively given to Dark Side users. They weren't in Jedi Academy and they aren't in both KotOR games.

Besides, it's a bad idea because it's a penalty against LS double-bladed saber users. It is used to penalize those LS who want to use something they're not supposed to use. There is nothing that indicates that only Sith use double blades.

Oh, and by the way, this isn't the realm of politics, it's the realm of marketing and in this realm, popular opinion is the rule.

Your point about deflecting blaster bolts is exactly my point - the double blade isn't defensive, it is aggressive, which is why it is more in-tune with the DS. As for the arena Jedi, show me a single example of a Jedi using a double bladed lightsabre and I will concede the point. Even if they aren't using both sides, the hilt is quite a bit longer so it should be easy enough to find.

I would search it now, but I'm busy.
Sometime I might look at it more closely.
Also, if "agressive" is in tune with the Dark Side, we should remove the Jedi Guardian and Weapon Master.


and seeing as how I'm a purist, you can tell how much that annoyed me. Really though, they weren't Sith - they were bad Jedi.

Yeah, they learn the code of the Sith, are lead by two Sith masters, have Sith teachers but aren't Sith :dozey:
You just refuse to see the truth.
By the way, it would be wonderful fun if we only fought two lightsaber wielding opponents in the whole game :dozey:

It's irrelevant because they aren't lightsabres, which are intricately tied to force users. Other weapons are not.

Actually, it is. You're saying that a double-bladed saber can only be used by Dark Siders because we see only one of them using it.
Note one.
He says that since we see only one person using a plasma torch, that weapon must be related to the Jedi.
Note one.
He's only applying the same logic of generalization on one person.

It's like saying one white man is a racist so all white men are racists.
You're making a very vast generalization based upon one person.



If you can show me a single piece of evidence from the films that says I'm wrong, then show me where it is and, as I said to luke, I will remove this idea and never speak of it again.

Your "evidence" and your entire idea is based on one person out of four.
I'm sure you know a bit about statistics as I assume that you've been to Uni and can make a good reasoning. When the sample is so small, you simply cannot make a correct conclusion.

RobQel-Droma
12-14-2005, 10:27 PM
What?!?!?!?!?!?! Um, let me think about that for a second - no. EVERYTHING in Star Wars is based on the films. If you don't like it I suggest you get over it.

Ummm... No. Everything in Star Wars originated from the films- however, many things in EU are not based on the films at all. The films were just what started it; Everything else went farther with the original ideas. The only thing that is the same is that it still has usually four things: the lightsaber, the force, Jedi, and Sith. Other than that many things are in EU that are not even mentioned in the movies.

But then politics shows us that people will many times say they don't want something simply because they are afraid of change, and then find out they like it.

This is a video game, Darth Windu. It has nothing to do with being "afraid of change" :xp:. It is just that, frankly, it is a stupid idea that doesn't really have any good basis. Not only that, every single person who has replied to this thread has said "no."

and seeing as how I'm a purist, you can tell how much that annoyed me. Really though, they weren't Sith - they were bad Jedi.

This is where you get inconsistent Darth Windu. What about those guys like the one Sith who talked to Darth Malak on the Star Forge? What are they known as specifically in both games? Answer: "Sith Masters." What about in TSL? Answer: "Sith Lords", "Sith Assassins", "Sith Marauders." Not Dark Jedi Marauder, not Evil Jedi Assassins, - they were Sith. And they are specifically called that in the game.

As for the arena Jedi, show me a single example of a Jedi using a double bladed lightsabre and I will concede the point. Even if they aren't using both sides, the hilt is quite a bit longer so it should be easy enough to find.

Darth Windu- I've given you many, many examples of Jedi using a saberstaff, and Sith using dual sabers. In fact, from the very game we are talking about! And what has been in the games is way more important than what has been in the movies. Its like taking something from some other EU game or book and incorporating it into another, especially when it violates the rules that the game has been going on from the beginning.

Darth Windu
12-15-2005, 03:56 AM
Actually, a lot of people said no, and if you look at the history of the double blade in games, they have rarely been exclusively given to Dark Side users. They weren't in Jedi Academy and they aren't in both KotOR games.
True, but then just because something hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it shouldn't happen. Take influence in TSL for example. It wasn't in KotOR, JO or JA, yet it is a good addition.

Besides, it's a bad idea because it's a penalty against LS double-bladed saber users. It is used to penalize those LS who want to use something they're not supposed to use. There is nothing that indicates that only Sith use double blades.
It isn't just a penalty to LS double-blade users. It would be
- Positive modifer for DS double-blade user
- Negative modifer for LS double-blade user
- Positive modifier for LS twin single-blade user
- Negative modifier for DS twin single-blade user

As for 'nothing indicates only the Sith use it', there are in fact two pieces of evidence. A Sith Lord uses it, yet Jedi do not, and it is offically called the 'Sith Lightsaber'.

Yeah, they learn the code of the Sith, are lead by two Sith masters, have Sith teachers but aren't Sith :dozey:
You just refuse to see the truth.
By the way, it would be wonderful fun if we only fought two lightsaber wielding opponents in the whole game :dozey:
Actually I think it would be more fun to only fight two lightsabre-wielding opponents if playing LS. Bump them up a lot compared to Sion and Nihilus and replace other lightsabre wielders with elite troops or things like the assassins.

Actually, it is. You're saying that a double-bladed saber can only be used by Dark Siders because we see only one of them using it.
No. No, no, no, no, no, no. That is not what I'm saying, nor has it ever been. What I'm saying is that since we only ever see the Sith using it, and it's more aggressive, it is linked with the DS more than the LS. LS players would be able to use it the same as they do now, they would just have some penalties.

He says that since we see only one person using a plasma torch, that weapon must be related to the Jedi.
Note one.
He's only applying the same logic of generalization on one person.

It's like saying one white man is a racist so all white men are racists.
You're making a very vast generalization based upon one person.
No. Lightsabre's are Jedi-specific, other weapons are not, so it's irrelevant. As for the generalisation sure, I am generalising, but given the sample sizes it can't be avoided.

Your "evidence" and your entire idea is based on one person out of four.
I'm sure you know a bit about statistics as I assume that you've been to Uni and can make a good reasoning. When the sample is so small, you simply cannot make a correct conclusion.
As said, I agree I'm generalising but it is still a logical conclusion to draw. Of all of the Jedi we see, which would number around 100 or more, only one of them uses a double-blade, with that person being a Sith.


Rob - again, the films are everything. If EU contradicts the film, then that EU is wrong. As for evidence, great you've given some evidence, but your's is from EU, mine is from the films. Hence my evidence is 'better' in terms of canon.

RedHawke
12-15-2005, 04:52 AM
As for 'nothing indicates only the Sith use it', there are in fact two pieces of evidence. A Sith Lord uses it, yet Jedi do not, and it is offically called the 'Sith Lightsaber'.

What I'm saying is that since we only ever see the Sith using it, and it's more aggressive, it is linked with the DS more than the LS. LS players would be able to use it the same as they do now, they would just have some penalties.
Sorry, but it seems that you want to argue things to death over a really small issue, one that you simply cannot win, the D20 rules have final say over game mechanics, not the Movies or the EU, and you are talking game mechanics here, so what you are saying won't happen, the D20 rules don't allow for things like this.

See this is an RPG, and as such has a rules system, sometimes the source material for an RPG has to be slightly deviated from to fit an RPG Rules system, this is common practice in RPG circles. So Double Bladed Sabers are not affiliated with the DS, nor will they ever be in this system. The saber itself is simply a weapon in the eyes of the game system, nothing more.

In the eyes of the D20 RPG, Darth Maul was Evil (DS) his saber was not, it was just a tool. Only by adding in alignment restricted crystals does a saber take on aligned properties, and they can be removed/replaced. So the saber is clearly not evil, only the crystals might be. There is a logical reason for this, as many of the EU characters are written as using a double bladed saber, not all are evil either, and the RPG has to take this into account, even though you don't want to.

And for the record I am against catagorizing a normal, non-magical, or non-poisioned weapon class as "Evil", weapons cannot be evil only their wielders.

lukeiamyourdad
12-15-2005, 08:37 AM
True, but then just because something hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it shouldn't happen. Take influence in TSL for example. It wasn't in KotOR, JO or JA, yet it is a good addition.

Totally different situation. Influence does not penalize anyone.

It isn't just a penalty to LS double-blade users. It would be
- Positive modifer for DS double-blade user
- Negative modifer for LS double-blade user
- Positive modifier for LS twin single-blade user
- Negative modifier for DS twin single-blade user

Same difference. Nobody wants penalties for either LS double or DS dual.

As for 'nothing indicates only the Sith use it', there are in fact two pieces of evidence. A Sith Lord uses it, yet Jedi do not, and it is offically called the 'Sith Lightsaber'.

Strange that you use EU when it forwards your goal. Nowhere in the movie it's called a Sith Lightsaber.
Whoever made that up didn't really think.
Once again, one Sith Lord.

Actually I think it would be more fun to only fight two lightsabre-wielding opponents if playing LS. Bump them up a lot compared to Sion and Nihilus and replace other lightsabre wielders with elite troops or things like the assassins.

One of the major complaints by the majority of people here about TSL is the lack of force-wielding opponents.


No. No, no, no, no, no, no. That is not what I'm saying, nor has it ever been. What I'm saying is that since we only ever see the Sith using it, and it's more aggressive, it is linked with the DS more than the LS. LS players would be able to use it the same as they do now, they would just have some penalties.

You are. You do realize that penalties are used as a deterrent right? Thus you don't want LS double-bladed users to exist even if technically they can. You simply have no grasp of what penalties are used for in an RPG.



No. Lightsabre's are Jedi-specific, other weapons are not, so it's irrelevant. As for the generalisation sure, I am generalising, but given the sample sizes it can't be avoided.

Still doesn't make it less of a generalization, one that is ridiculous considering the sample size and it simply is unconclusive to make such a conclusion based on a 4 men sample.

As said, I agree I'm generalising but it is still a logical conclusion to draw. Of all of the Jedi we see, which would number around 100 or more, only one of them uses a double-blade, with that person being a Sith.

So now Jedi and Sith are in the same pool? It seems you've just merged two populations to pull out a stat.


Rob - again, the films are everything. If EU contradicts the film, then that EU is wrong. As for evidence, great you've given some evidence, but your's is from EU, mine is from the films. Hence my evidence is 'better' in terms of canon.

Not in a game talks about Exar Kun, Nomi Sunrider, etc. :dozey:
Hell, I'll go as far as say that there's a small reference to the Yuuzhan Vong.
It's totally irrelevant to use pure canon "logic".

If that was the case, the game would be absolutely horrible, being nothing more then a carbon copy of what it is lightly based upon.

Prime
12-15-2005, 09:46 AM
What I'm saying is that since we only ever see the Sith using it, and it's more aggressive, it is linked with the DS more than the LS. LS players would be able to use it the same as they do now, they would just have some penalties.If a LS player has the required proficiencies (i.e. have the right training), they should be able to use it just as well as any other character. If you really want to discourage somethings use by LS characters for example, make the character face criticism from the "powers that be" (Council or whatever) as they perhaps might in "the real world". But there is nothing inherant about these lightsabers that make them more or less difficult to use by LS/DS characters. Creating such modifiers would not reflect the universe it is sumulating and would be completely artificial.

Ventress for example is trained to use two lightsabers and doesn't seem to have any problems, and Bastila has no problems using a double-bladed saber.

RobQel-Droma
12-15-2005, 10:58 AM
Rob - again, the films are everything. If EU contradicts the film, then that EU is wrong.

In a game that is set 4000 years before the films? :rolleyes: No, it is not. It came originally from the films, but everything else are things that have been expanded upon. I gave you evidence from the game we are playing! And you ignore it for the stupid films. I don't care, we are in a discussion about KotOR, not what four Sith did in the movies. And none of this EU contradicts the films, either- So why bring that up?

As for the credibility of the evidence, you are wrong there too. Mine, while it is from the EU, is from that same exact game, time period, etc. The evidence from the films, while it is good, is from four, repeat four people, who 1) Are set 4000 years later than the game, and 2) only four, while their are hundreds in KotOR. Who knows, maybe if there was only four, it might be an actual possibility that maybe between the four of them, neither really wanted to dual-wield, and it was just a matter of preference between them. :xp:

No. Lightsabre's are Jedi-specific, other weapons are not, so it's irrelevant. As for the generalisation sure, I am generalising, but given the sample sizes it can't be avoided.

*cough* Then why are Sith Assassins using sticks? :rolleyes: And why through half of TSL are you not using a lightsaber? Ok, so they are the weapon of a Jedi. But they are still a weapon. Basically we are arguing about whether a lightsaber is DS or LS. Since it in itself is not, then what really makes a simple lightsaber really different? If the Jedi used plasma torches in the movies, then everyone would be saying "A plasma torch is the weapon of the Jedi." There would be, of course, something that would make the torch "special." And lightsabers would just be some other weapon.

Comes my point about the robes and warblades. None of the DS/LS restricted items in the game are lightsabers, they are robes, armor, and headgear, mostly. And the ancient vibroblades are also said to be powerful artifacts, too (although they usually aren't restricted). So what is so special about the lightsabers? They are simple tools/weapons.

No. No, no, no, no, no, no. That is not what I'm saying, nor has it ever been. What I'm saying is that since we only ever see the Sith using it, and it's more aggressive, it is linked with the DS more than the LS. LS players would be able to use it the same as they do now, they would just have some penalties.

I guess you don't understand this. Who is going to want to use a weapon that has penalties to it naturally because they are of the "wrong" alignment? They can use it, but they won't. People will hate it, because it limits what they can do.

As for evidence, great you've given some evidence, but your's is from EU, mine is from the films. Hence my evidence is 'better' in terms of canon.

Uh-huh, right. And if the films said that Leia was your mother you'd believe them too. :xp: I hate to thing what the game would be if you were producing it. It would be a battle against two single super-powered Sith, with everyone else being simple troops, you couldn't choose your favorite weapon because of penalties, and it would be an absolute rip-off of the movies.

Windu, the movies are not God. They do not decide what is right and wrong in a EU game set 4000 years before the films; Especially something as trivial as lightsaber penalties.

As for 'nothing indicates only the Sith use it', there are in fact two pieces of evidence. A Sith Lord uses it, yet Jedi do not, and it is offically called the 'Sith Lightsaber'.

"A Sith Lord uses it, yet Zez-Kai Ell and Bastila Shan use it too." They use it in the game we are talking about. And Asajj Ventress- Sith dual wielder- Remember that scar on Anakin's face in RotS? It is said to specifically have come from an encounter with Ventress between AotC and RotS. That alone is enough for me, not to mention the amount of other examples I've given.

"It is officially called the 'Sith Lightsaber'." And your point is?... That doesn't mean one single thing, if you look at it. It doesn't matter really that it is called that, it doesn't mean that because it is "associated" with them it is a DS weapon. It is just associated with them, like all black robes are associated with the Sith. But does that mean a lightsider can't wear the black Sith robes or use them effectively? No, it doesn't.

Say, what was all this about "Sith Masters" not really being "Sith Masters" but being bad Jedi? Even when "Sith" is their official name? And now you are talking about "the official name" for the saberstaff? Come on.

As said, I agree I'm generalising but it is still a logical conclusion to draw. Of all of the Jedi we see, which would number around 100 or more, only one of them uses a double-blade, with that person being a Sith.

Does it ever tell you that a Jedi in the films doesn't? How do we know, one of them actually might, we just don't see him. In fact, I don't remember seeing dual-wielding Jedi in the arena.

Darth Windu
12-16-2005, 03:52 AM
Prime - not a bad idea, meditate on this I must...

Rob - as for duel sabre-wielding in the arean, there are a few examples.
1. Right after Obi, Anakin and Padme get blasted off the beat they were riding, in the background there is a Jedi with one blue and one green lightsabre.
2. After Mace gets trampled by the same beasty, there is one, maybe two (I only have VHS so it's hard to tell) Jedi with twin-blades, but you only see them for a second.

JediMaster12
12-16-2005, 11:22 AM
We still on this DS/LS penalty thing for dual wielding and saberstaffs? Darth Windu give it up. I think half the people in the forum say the same thing: NO.
They like the current style and I'm in that club. Frankly I'm getting tired of this discussion.

*Draws saberstaff and cuts PC to pieces*

RobQel-Droma
12-16-2005, 11:34 AM
I guess I'll have to watch closer for those Jedi. But that still brings me back to my point. Look at it this way:

1) First of all, has it ever ocurred to you that maybe there were Jedi using the saberstaff but you just didn't see them? I know, it is kind of pointless to say "what if", but still; Just because you didn't see any doesn't mean there wasn't, especially since you only see a few Jedi fighting.

2) The whole thing about saberstaff being DS because you only saw Darth Maul use saw doesn't really mean anything. Just because you only see him using it doesn't mean that it is a DS weapon, actually. As I said, out of 4 people, could just be a matter of personal preference, among the Sith and the Jedi.

As for evidence, great you've given some evidence, but your's is from EU, mine is from the films. Hence my evidence is 'better' in terms of canon.

3) Your's is better? No, its not. My evidence was EU, in fact, it was EU from the same time period, all connected to the game we are talking about, even some from the game itself. Going on the films and saying since because of that it is "canon" and has relevance over everything else is wrong. The films are just films, they aren't games, and just because you generalize a saberstaff into DS because of one person in the films doesn't mean that (a) it is relevant 4000 years ago, and (b) that that person, Maul, is the only one. The game we are talking about mentions and shows people like Zez-Kai Ell, Bastila Shan, etc. And so, in the game we are talking about, Jedi do use the saberstaff, and evidence in the very game we are talking about is better than evidence from four people in the films.

No. Lightsabre's are Jedi-specific, other weapons are not, so it's irrelevant. As for the generalisation sure, I am generalising, but given the sample sizes it can't be avoided.

4) But it doesn't matter. I was talking about the amount of generalization you were doing, in which it doesn't matter what weapon the Jedi were using, since I am talking about another certain point. It is exactly relevant. I said, one Jedi uses a plasma torch, so it must be LS, right? It doesn't matter that it isn't a Jedi weapon, it is still the same appliance of generalization.

5) :rolleyes: "Given the sample sizes...."? We've given you many examples Windu, much more than one out of four, yet you ignore them. It isn't that it can't be avoided, its just that you can't get it through your brain that KotOR Jedi/Sith matter just as much, in fact, more than film Jedi/Sith.

EDIT: JediMaster12 is right, your idea has only two votes- Frankly, the devs aren't going to put in an idea especially if it has about a 1% minority that says yes.

Darth Windu
12-16-2005, 09:53 PM
Rob - actually, my idea has three votes, not two :p

As for Jedi using Sith Lightsabre's in the arena, nope. The offical site says that sabre is only in TPM, and I have never seen any evidence of Jedi using it.


Jedi Master - fine, I'm actually still looking for comments on my other ideas.

RobQel-Droma
12-17-2005, 01:00 AM
How about we get off the subject and get to things we agree on, like JediMaster said. :) I'm not really sure we are getting anywhere to each other with this.

As for the classes, I don't particulater like "Force Master," but I would rather have something other than "Jedi Master" and "Weaponsmaster." However, the only problem I would have with renaming them is that it would be kind of wierd to have one name for them in TSL and another in KotOR III. Of course, it wouldn't be changing the basics. But for non-Jedi classes:

Soldier: Commando (LS), Mercernary (DS)

Scout: Ranger (LS), Bounty Hunter (DS)

Scoundrel: No clue. Maybe something like "Noble", or "Assassin." Help me out on that one.

The names could be changed, of course, especially with Bounty Hunter and Mercenary, if it was more suited to the other class.

Darca Lar
12-17-2005, 09:47 PM
I think Bounty hunter is good, but merc should be changed since its about the same thing as a Bounty Hunter.

lukeiamyourdad
12-17-2005, 09:50 PM
Not really. A mercenary is just a soldier for hired. He does regular soldier duties.
A bounty hunter is a specialist who tracks down or hunts targets for money. They are more assassins then foot soldiers.

RobQel-Droma
12-17-2005, 09:51 PM
^Yes, a merc and a bounty hunter are different. As LIAYD said, a merc is a regular soldier that is for hire, while a bounty hunter is more of a hired assassin.

Darca Lar
12-17-2005, 10:05 PM
You've got a point...


Edit by D333: thread closed at the request of the author.