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View Full Version : Flip kicks? (And Enhanced Saber System Discussion)


l33tleboy
12-22-2005, 08:53 AM
Okay, I've been playing this mod with a friend for a few days now, and I have to say the co-op mode is GREAT!

I have run into a few insignificant bugs, but no show stoppers, which is an incredible accomplishment, considering that most SP maps are playable to some degree.

The only thing I miss, however, are the flip kicks. I did a search, and all I could find was a few posts from some eight months ago, that claimed that flip kicking would not make it into the mod because it's unbalanced and not very Jedi-like.

While I can't argue with that, I still think it should be toggleable by means of a cvar. Let's face it, most JO/JA veterans have grown accustomed to use the flip kicks, and there aren't many new players taking this game up today. The most popular servers out there run mods that allow for flip kicking, and many have this option enabled. You can even toggle it in vanilla JA SP.
Please consider it.

If not, perhaps a new function could be added that allowed for the regular kick (the slow, puny, staff-only kick) to be used while using dual and single sabers too?
That'd be a poor substitute for the flip kick due to its slowness, but it would still make for a cool addition for the mod, without the balance and un-Jedi likeness issues.

Thanks, and keep it up!

Lathain Valtiel
12-22-2005, 09:18 AM
I'e asked for a flip-kick cvar (which would be OFF by default), but Razor has said no repeatedly, even frrom requests by two of his admins.

razorace
12-22-2005, 04:51 PM
All gameplay changes go into OJP Enhanced, where I've already added standard kicks to ALL saber styles. I'm all for more melee moves, I just can't place them into OJP Basic. :)

l33tleboy
12-24-2005, 10:40 AM
Right. So, I have downloaded Enhanced 2b8, and it indeed has regular kicks for all saber modes. Now, a couple of questions:

Is there any way of making the saber combat in Enhanced a bit more like that of vanilla JK (cvars?)? The concept of "dodge block" is cool (much better than the saber chopping your head off and only taking 30hp worth damage), but I can't quite get used to the new feint system, and the way bouncing works now is a bit weird, imo, with too excessive recover time and your lightsaber being blown to hell a bit too often. Also, I hate Desann and Tavion's stances. I'd very much like to disable them.

Also, I have seen in the readme that there is supposed to be a "block" button, but I have been unable to find it in the control config menu, or the cmd in the readme for binding purposes. Am I missing something?

Thanks!

razorace
12-24-2005, 05:03 PM
There isn't a cvar. Creating a totally configurable system would be a coding/balancing nightmare. However, this is still a WIP so unresolved balancing/gameplay issues can/will be addressed if they are brought to our attention.

How are you having problems with the Feint system? Is there something wrong with it or is it just something you're not used to? Any suggestions on how I can make it better?

The bouncing system only has a "recovery" time if you don't launch into a new saber attack by moving in a direction other than original attack's direction.

The saber only returns to the ready stance if the player attempts to attack in the same direction as the original attack when the impact occurs. To avoid this just move in another attack direction as the saber hits. This will have your player bounce off the impact into another attack. The goal of this change is to prevent bounce spamming for people that just charge blindly into combat.

uh, there isn't a manual block button anymore. Where did you find that in the documentation?

We experimented with serveral different variations of a manual block button earlier in the development cycle but we weren't happy with the results. The problem with a manual block button is that players end up getting caught "flat footed" simply because they weren't spamming the block button. Plus, when would you ever NOT want to block an attack?

As such, the manual block button system was converted into part of the Dodge system. Saber blocking now occurs automatically and deduces energy from your Dodge meter. However, to parry attacks (and create an openning in your opponent's defenses) you must take an active role in your blocking. To attempt to parry an attack, move in the direction of the attack as it approaches your player's body. Note that up/down parrying is inverted IE, Move left to parry left; Move right to parry right; Move back to parry up; Move forward to parry down. The chances of parrying an attack depends on the attacker's/defender's attack/defense saber skill levels, weither the players are running, etc.

A successful parry will stun your opponent, making him stumble and lose his ability to saber block for a shot period of time.

l33tleboy
12-24-2005, 09:53 PM
How are you having problems with the Feint system? Is there something wrong with it or is it just something you're not used to? Any suggestions on how I can make it better?
No, not really "problems". I'm simply not used to keeping my finger on the attack button for the whole duration of the attack/combo. It's a cool idea, though. It's just I'm a long time JO/JA player and some habits die hard. :)

However, I have found that not being able to follow up with a different attack from a feint is a great disadvantage, as that's one of the main uses of a feint. This is all the more obvious while using the strong stance of the single lightsaber, where recovery times are horrible.


The bouncing system only has a "recovery" time if you don't launch into a new saber attack by moving in a direction other than original attack's direction.

The saber only returns to the ready stance if the player attempts to attack in the same direction as the original attack when the impact occurs. To avoid this just move in another attack direction as the saber hits. This will have your player bounce off the impact into another attack. The goal of this change is to prevent bounce spamming for people that just charge blindly into combat.
Didn't know that. Thanks.


uh, there isn't a manual block button anymore. Where did you find that in the documentation?
It's in OJP_sabersys.txt, one of the docs included in the package. As it only lists changes up to b6, I assumed the "block" button was supposed to be there still.


Saber blocking now occurs automatically and deduces energy from your Dodge meter. However, to parry attacks (and create an openning in your opponent's defenses) you must take an active role in your blocking. To attempt to parry an attack, move in the direction of the attack as it approaches your player's body. Note that up/down parrying is inverted IE, Move left to parry left; Move right to parry right; Move back to parry up; Move forward to parry down. The chances of parrying an attack depends on the attacker's/defender's attack/defense saber skill levels, weither the players are running, etc.

A successful parry will stun your opponent, making him stumble and lose his ability to saber block for a shot period of time.
Well, that clears it up.

Now, my thoughts after putting to the test what you said.

I've been playing, and from what I've seen, the mod favors turtling quite heavily. Defensive play is much more likely to send the opponent into a stun that allows for delivery of the killing blow than aggressive tactics. Also, the single saber strong style is now seriously underpowered, as its chances of breaking the opponent's guard even on a clean hit are very much diminished. This was its main advantage in vanilla JK, and it compensated for the LONG recovery times.

Now, using this style to attack from a distance is unfeasible as well, as it requires constant distance adjustment, which is not possible without running. And if your saber gets hit (be it because you're attacking or defending) while you are on the run, you'll lose it like 80% of the time.

Quite often (as in the majority of the times) when I'm attacking, I'll lose my lightsaber. I know that running attacks are supposed to be less effective, but the frequency with which I lose my weapon seems a bit excessive. Right now, I'm spending more time without a weapon than with it, which is all the more annoying considering that I don't regenerate Force if I have lost the saber. Not only that, but as dual wielders can only lose one of their two sabers, this is somewhat of an unfair advantage.

I think the stun is seriously unbalanced as well, as it will leave you unable to move or parry for about 2 seconds. Guard breaks are fine, but fixing you to the floor is a bit too much.

I have noticed that while the mod works fine in a 1vs1 duel, when it comes to facing several opponents, it's really easy to become exhausted, at which point one gets mercilessly and unavoidably stomped. This is common while playing co-op, where facing several dark Jedi at once is the norm.

Another thing. Now that +altattack is used for kicking, how do I throw my lightsaber?

Also, and since you didn't answer last time, is there any way to remove Tavion and Desann's styles from the cycle?
And, um, what about flip kicks?

Oh, yeah. And how do I perform the katas now? I seem to be unable to do them at all...

Well, that's my $0.02. Sorry for the long post. :)

razorace
12-25-2005, 12:17 AM
However, I have found that not being able to follow up with a different attack from a feint is a great disadvantage, as that's one of the main uses of a feint.
Hold down attack + altattack + new move direction while winding up for an attack to feint into a new move. I hope that helps. :)

It's in OJP_sabersys.txt, one of the docs included in the package. As it only lists changes up to b6, I assumed the "block" button was supposed to be there still.
hmmm, ok. I'll update the docs then. :)

I've been playing, and from what I've seen, the mod favors turtling quite heavily.
Agreed, I've been considering some sort of "block breaker" move but I haven't been able to come up with a way to make it balanced vs blocking.

Also, the single saber strong style is now seriously underpowered, as its chances of breaking the opponent's guard even on a clean hit are very much diminished.
Yeah, since I rewrote most of the code, the breaker characteristics of the strong style have been removed. But to offset that, I've removed all the movement restrictions of the style and increased its speed to match that of the other styles, but that I think that's in the version of the code that you haven't seen yet.

I'll admit that I haven't experimented with the different styles much yet so the recovery moves might need to be tweaked. Remember that red does reach much farther than

And if your saber gets hit (be it because you're attacking or defending) while you are on the run, you'll lose it like 80% of the time.
That's intentional. I really want people to walk during saber combat. The running around and spinning like a top wasn't very movie realistic imo. :) I've greatly increased the walk speed to make walking a viable option during combat.

Right now, I'm spending more time without a weapon than with it, which is all the more annoying considering that I don't regenerate Force if I have lost the saber. Not only that, but as dual wielders can only lose one of their two sabers, this is somewhat of an unfair advantage.
Agreed, I'm going to really tweak the saber behavior percentages.

I'll fix the regeneration issue ( I wasn't aware of that ).

As for the dual wielders, I agree. I'll look into what we can do about it. Personally, I'm hoping that I can fix things so that people can

I think the stun is seriously unbalanced as well, as it will leave you unable to move or parry for about 2 seconds. Guard breaks are fine, but fixing you to the floor is a bit too much.
Well, I did that so players would have plenty of oppertunity to hit the player while they are stunned. Before I did that, players would just cut and run/move away whenever they got stunned. Plus, I'm trying to simulate the lack of movement that you'd have while stumbling when knocked off balance.

I have noticed that while the mod works fine in a 1vs1 duel, when it comes to facing several opponents, it's really easy to become exhausted, at which point one gets mercilessly and unavoidably stomped. This is common while playing co-op, where facing several dark Jedi at once is the norm.
Yeah, I know it's difficult. Battling multiple jedi at once is supposed to be difficult. I recommend fighting defensively and using kicks, like Maul, to knock opponents out of the fight so you can fight one-on-one. :)

Another thing. Now that +altattack is used for kicking, how do I throw my lightsaber?
Saber Throw is now a selectable Force Power in the Force Powers menu.

Also, and since you didn't answer last time, is there any way to remove Tavion and Desann's styles from the cycle?
unfortunately, no. You can't remove them. However, I'll try to whip up some different icons so it will be easier to avoid using them while cycling stances. :)

And, um, what about flip kicks?
Again, I wasn't a fan of the JKO flip kick. However, I might be able to add it as some sort of new special kick manover. Maybe something that knocks people on their ass when you use it. However, it would have to require a large amount of force and would be a risky move. :)

Oh, yeah. And how do I perform the katas now? I seem to be unable to do them at all...
I pulled them out. They weren't realistic and took all the focus off the normal swing/block attacks of saber combat.

Well, that's my $0.02. Sorry for the long post. :)
No no. That's great. I need all the feedback I can get. :)

l33tleboy
12-25-2005, 03:43 PM
Well, since you don't seem to mind long posts, here you go: :D

Hold down attack + altattack + new move direction while winding up for an attack to feint into a new move. I hope that helps. :)
Thanks. You might want to consider adding all that stuff to the documentation (I don't remember seeing it), so us n00bs won't come here bother you with this sort of questions...


Agreed, I've been considering some sort of "block breaker" move but I haven't been able to come up with a way to make it balanced vs blocking.
Um, that might not be necessary. To be honest, I was playing with sv_fps set to 20. Tried changing it to 50 or 60 and things work much better now. Hit detection, specifically. However, I have found that stun happens sometimes it's not supposed to. For instance, sometimes I hit the other guy, he goes into a dodge, and I'm forced into a stun even though there was no saber clashing.


Yeah, since I rewrote most of the code, the breaker characteristics of the strong style have been removed. But to offset that, I've removed all the movement restrictions of the style and increased its speed to match that of the other styles, but that I think that's in the version of the code that you haven't seen yet.
Yup, I don't think I've seen that. What do you mean by "removed all the movement restrictions", anyway? You can chain more than 3 now?
If so, it could be a great way of fighting while keeping your distance.
Unfortunately, without their guard breaking characteristics, the special moves (red and yellow DFAs and blue lunge) are pretty useless now.


That's intentional. I really want people to walk during saber combat. The running around and spinning like a top wasn't very movie realistic imo. :) I've greatly increased the walk speed to make walking a viable option during combat.
Yeah, I tend to agree. The run-in, swing, roll-out/kick back routine of vanilla JA wasn't very movie-like at all. But I really haven't noticed any increase in the walking speed... one still moves real slow while doing the lightstaff routine, for instance.


Well, I did that so players would have plenty of oppertunity to hit the player while they are stunned. Before I did that, players would just cut and run/move away whenever they got stunned. Plus, I'm trying to simulate the lack of movement that you'd have while stumbling when knocked off balance.
Yeah, I figured as much. But considering the loss of defense that going into a stun means, it shouldn't be too difficult to hit a stunned opponent if they can't move at full speed. Since the defender's guard is down, the attacking player doesn't need to be walking to deliver an effective blow. So perhaps forcing the stunned player to move at a (greatly) reduced speed would be both more natural from a visual standpoint, and more balanced, since a stun now pretty much means a guaranteed hit or two.

Oh, yeah. You can still jump upwards while stunned, and recover from the stun in mid air, which kinda defeats the whole point. I don't think that's supposed to happen.


Yeah, I know it's difficult. Battling multiple jedi at once is supposed to be difficult. I recommend fighting defensively and using kicks, like Maul, to knock opponents out of the fight so you can fight one-on-one. :)
Yeah, I know it's supposed to be difficult. My main gripe with that, however, is that exhaustion decreases your movement and attack speed, sending you into a spiral that ends in death if the enemies press on, as you can't run or jump away. And since without Force you can't regenerate Dodge, you're pretty much screwed. Maybe the system would work better if instead of 100 FP you had 200 or 300? While in 1v1 duels it's pretty balanced, when fighting several Force-wielding opponents, things tend to end quickly and brutally for the outnumbered player.


Saber Throw is now a selectable Force Power in the Force Powers menu.
Cool, hadn't noticed that.


unfortunately, no. You can't remove them. However, I'll try to whip up some different icons so it will be easier to avoid using them while cycling stances. :)
That will have to do, then. It would help if the speed at which one can change styles was increased, too. :)
And, do those styles have special moves? I remember you could do the red DFA and blue lunge from Desann's stance, and the yellow DFA from Tavion's, but apparently not anymore...?


Again, I wasn't a fan of the JKO flip kick. However, I might be able to add it as some sort of new special kick manover. Maybe something that knocks people on their ass when you use it. However, it would have to require a large amount of force and would be a risky move. :)
Sounds good. As a flip kick spammer, I know how unbalanced that move is. I liked its knockback effect and speed, though.
I think it wouldn't be too difficult to make it risky, as trying to kick someone in the face at the wrong time would most likely get you killed, since Dodge doesn't work while jumping.


I pulled them out. They weren't realistic and took all the focus off the normal swing/block attacks of saber combat.
Fair enough. Another thing that needs to be added to the documentation. ;)

razorace
12-26-2005, 12:52 AM
Thanks. You might want to consider adding all that stuff to the documentation (I don't remember seeing it), so us n00bs won't come here bother you with this sort of questions...
Will do. I've been writting a FAQ section based on your comments. Unfortunately, I don't have any documentation people so I gotta do all the doc work for this thing myself.

However, I have found that stun happens sometimes it's not supposed to. For instance, sometimes I hit the other guy, he goes into a dodge, and I'm forced into a stun even though there was no saber clashing.
Hmmm, I'll have to check into that. That shouldn't happen.

Yup, I don't think I've seen that. What do you mean by "removed all the movement restrictions", anyway? You can chain more than 3 now?
If so, it could be a great way of fighting while keeping your distance.
Unfortunately, without their guard breaking characteristics, the special moves (red and yellow DFAs and blue lunge) are pretty useless now.
yes, you can now chain as much as you want with all the saber styles. Since the sabers now actually bounce on impact, the old restrictions were outdated.

As for movement restrictions, I was referring to the fact that basejka really slows the player down while attacking with the various saber styles, this is especially noteable with the heavy stance.

With all the restrictions gone, saber combat style choice is really just a matter of preference now. Yes, there are differences in terms of range and such, but I intend to add subtle bonuses/penalties to the various

But I really haven't noticed any increase in the walking speed... one still moves real slow while doing the lightstaff routine, for instance.
Well, it's in there. Maybe it's just not in the last version I released to the public.

Yeah, I figured as much. But considering the loss of defense that going into a stun means, it shouldn't be too difficult to hit a stunned opponent if they can't move at full speed. Since the defender's guard is down, the attacking player doesn't need to be walking to deliver an effective blow. So perhaps forcing the stunned player to move at a (greatly) reduced speed would be both more natural from a visual standpoint, and more balanced, since a stun now pretty much means a guaranteed hit or two.
Maybe. I originally just slowed down the player movement during a stun but comboed with the attacker's knockaway animation, the opening was too short. I guess this just needs more playtesting. :)

Oh, yeah. You can still jump upwards while stunned, and recover from the stun in mid air, which kinda defeats the whole point. I don't think that's supposed to happen.
I actually kind of liked that, but you're right, it's not very fair. Maybe change it so that the backflip is a sort of counter to being stunned, but costs some fatigue to do?

Maybe the system would work better if instead of 100 FP you had 200 or 300? While in 1v1 duels it's pretty balanced, when fighting several Force-wielding opponents, things tend to end quickly and brutally for the outnumbered player.
mmm, right. The Force Powers/Fatigue balancing hasn't even been started on yet. I just haven't had anyone playtesting the system to figure out what the appropaite levels should be.

That will have to do, then. It would help if the speed at which one can change styles was increased, too. :)
Agreed, but I'm not sure if I can do anything about that as it might just be a lag issue. I'll add that to my to-do list. :)

And, do those styles have special moves? I remember you could do the red DFA and blue lunge from Desann's stance, and the yellow DFA from Tavion's, but apparently not anymore...?
I beleive they have those specials, but it's been a while since I've tried it. Maybe they don't do that anymore since JKO. *shrug*

I think it wouldn't be too difficult to make it risky, as trying to kick someone in the face at the wrong time would most likely get you killed, since Dodge doesn't work while jumping.
exactly.

l33tleboy
12-28-2005, 11:08 AM
Well, it's in there. Maybe it's just not in the last version I released to the public.
Looking forward to see the next version! :)


I actually kind of liked that, but you're right, it's not very fair. Maybe change it so that the backflip is a sort of counter to being stunned, but costs some fatigue to do?
Honestly, I don't know. It could work, as it's not too difficult to hit a backflipping opponent if you know what you're doing (and are expecting it), which would entail a risk in breaking the stun. Perhaps rolling and backflipping?

I'm concerned that it could put too much emphasis on fatigue management, but if the fatigue pool and stun chances are tweaked, it could work.


mmm, right. The Force Powers/Fatigue balancing hasn't even been started on yet. I just haven't had anyone playtesting the system to figure out what the appropaite levels should be.
That's a shame. I'd very much like to playtest this mod, but I doubt I'd have the time. Right now I'm playing more and posting all of this because of the Christmas holiday, but otherwise, I don't think I could become a regular playtester. :(

I'll try to keep posting some feedback, if that's ok with you, though.

razorace
12-28-2005, 04:30 PM
I understand the time issue. The holidays are my big break time as well. :)

As for the flip kick, are you really particular to the way the JKO system worked. IE the one click flip kicks or would it be acceptable to mess with the system a bit?

I remember seeing a mod a long time ago that changed the flip kick to make it require the players to jump onto another player before being able to use it. The idea behind it was to make it so opponents could see the flip kick coming by the pre-hop.

LightNinja
12-28-2005, 07:03 PM
Eazor im impressed with you, you attend everyone, its really nice. Its good to see people like you(sorry for the offtopic but i was quite impressed)

razorace
12-28-2005, 08:09 PM
Thank you. I think that communicating with fans is a great way to learn more about game design, which is one of the main purposes of this project for me.

Plus, it's just the polite thing to do. :)

razorace
12-28-2005, 10:10 PM
In other news, I've checked into some of the stuff that l33tleboy mentioned and I've determined the following:

- I have already fixed the problem about the FP not regenerating while a player has dropped his saber. This was fixed while I redid the Saber Throw behavior.

- I looked into the saber style switching speed issue and found out what was slowing things down. I've removed that block and the fix will be in the next release.

- I've also added different colored icons for the hidden styles as per your mentioning of it. :)

l33tleboy
12-29-2005, 09:31 AM
As for the flip kick, are you really particular to the way the JKO system worked. IE the one click flip kicks or would it be acceptable to mess with the system a bit?

I remember seeing a mod a long time ago that changed the flip kick to make it require the players to jump onto another player before being able to use it. The idea behind it was to make it so opponents could see the flip kick coming by the pre-hop.
Hey, it's your mod. I'll just be happy if you put flip kicks in, regardless of the method. :)

Anyway, regular flip kicks actually required two jumps (or at least tapping +moveup twice). If done in quick succession, it could look like you performed them without jumping. So, let me get this straight, you want to implement them so they can no longer be executed while standing on the floor? That sounds like a good idea, and it would probably work with the realistic theme of the mod. Such a risky move shouldn't be without its rewards, though.


In other news, I've checked into some of the stuff that l33tleboy mentioned and I've determined the following:

- I have already fixed the problem about the FP not regenerating while a player has dropped his saber. This was fixed while I redid the Saber Throw behavior.

- I looked into the saber style switching speed issue and found out what was slowing things down. I've removed that block and the fix will be in the next release.

- I've also added different colored icons for the hidden styles as per your mentioning of it.
Cool. :)

razorace
12-29-2005, 04:31 PM
I thought the side flip kick required only one button press. *shrug*

razorace
12-29-2005, 04:40 PM
Say, do you have a instant messenger service? That way I could contact you more directly and we could test this bad boy together. Just PM that info if you got it. :)

Kurgan
01-01-2006, 02:34 PM
You're right, in 1.02 flip kicks were a single click, in the patches (I don't recall if it was 1.03 or 1.04) it was changed to a double click, but side flip kicks remained a single click! ;)

razorace
01-01-2006, 03:38 PM
Thanks for the clarification Kurgan. :)