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Darth Windu
12-18-2005, 01:44 AM
If you're wondering 'I thought this thread was longer' then you are right. However, I decided to delete my original thread on the same topic because it turned into an argument on one point of the many I have put forward, which really should have been in another topic. That idea has been removed.

Well, having played both KotOR and KotOR2 many times, I thought I may as well post some ideas I have for gameplay improvements if there is a KotOR3. Anyway, here goes.


Attacks
- Player should be able to chose default attack for all NPC party members and self. For example, player could choose a party member to use Flurry as their default attack, which that character would use without any external input.


Classes
- Non-Jedi Prestige classes should be introduced with LS and DS variants. These would be

Soldier --> Peacekeeper (LS) / Mercenary (DS)
Scout --> Commando (LS) / Bounty Hunter (DS)
Scoundrel --> Smuggler (LS) / Slaver (DS)

These classes would give access to various feats/abilities similar to those obtained in the Jedi Prestige classes. For example, the Peacekeeper/Mercenary would get the same extra two-weapon fighting and weapons proficiency feat options as the Jedi Weapon Master. These would also provide an option in terms of training NPC party members. Do you want to train a Soldier as a Jedi Guardian, or as a Peacekeeper/Mercenary?

- Jedi Master should be renamed Jedi Force Master, while Sith Lord should be renamed. These titles are indicative of Rank, not ‘path’. For example, irrespective of what class you are, you will still be either a Jedi Master or Sith Lord.


Feats
- Allow associated Prestige classes access to class-specific feats. For example, if player chooses Jedi Sentinel --> Jedi Weapon Master, player should be able to choose Force Jump feats. These would not be automatically granted however.


Force Powers
- Restrict certain ‘iconic’ force powers to either Light Side or Dark Side. In this case, Force Heal could only be used by a LS Jedi, while Force Lightning could only be used by a DS Sith. Neutral players would not be able to use either.

- Restrict the final tier of force powers, eg Master Force Speed, Master Force Valour etc to Prestige classes only. This would show a much greater difference between Masters and Knights/Padawans.


Lightsabre crystals
- Give colour crystals small bonuses that reflect the Jedi/Sith that would be using them. These would be

Blue, Cyan = +1 Dexterity
Yellow, Orange = +1 Intelligence
Green, Veridian = +1 Wisdom
Red, Purple = +1 Strength
Silver, Bronze etc = +1 Charisma


Loadout
- Party Members should have to load up on weapons/items before leaving the Hawk or whatever base you are using at the time, and then have no access to any other weapon you have picked up previously once you leave your base, much like the system used in Jedi Academy. However, if you picked up items while travelling, they would all be accessible to your party members.

- Add more weapon-carriage places for party members, such as Pistol Holsters (thighs) and a backstrap for Blades, Rifles etc.

- Allow party members to carry 'holdout blaster's' on their arms, where Energy Shields are carried, much like Mira's rocket launcher. At present, 'Holdout' blasters are useless because they are simply not powerful enough, especially considering there are many much more powerful pistols out there.


NPC reaction to player’s clothes
- NPC’s should react to what the player is wearing, which currently does not happen. For example, an NPC will react exactly the same to you regardless of whether you are wearing Dark Jedi robes with a Red double-bladed lightsabre, or wearing Jedi robes with a Blue or Green lightsabre. This would be similar to how NPC’s react to you on Taris in KotOR if you are wearing the Sith Uniform or not.


Random Item placement
- All unique items, such as Onasi Blaster, Jolee’s Robes etc should be non-random.

- Shopkeepers and items should be divided into levels. For example, a level 1 shopkeeper would stock very basic items, but they would be completely random basic items. To the same extent, a high level shopkeeper would stock only the best items, but would have randomised selections of the best items.

- All other loot etc should be random, but in keeping with where the loot is coming from. For example, Dark Jedi wielding Red lightsabre’s shouldn’t drop Jedi robes and Blue/Green sabres.


Swoop racing
- Enable player to purchase or choose a swoop bike at the start of the game. Bikes could come in combinations of average acceleration/average top speed, poor acceleration/good top speed, good acceleration/poor top speed etc.

- Allow Swoop bike upgrades to be purchased.

- Enable swoop bike ‘tuning’ to fit them better to each track.


Weapons
- Add Sniper rifles. These would have a very long range and high power, but ineffective at short range and a long time between shots. Effectively, they would be at one extreme, with blaster Rifles in the middle, and Repeating blasters at the other end. This would also lend different attack feats to different weapons. Power Blast would be very useful for Sniper rifles while Rapid Shot would suit Repeating blasters more by accentuating their strengths.

- Add Assault Rifles. Especially rifles similar to modern weapons such as the M-16/M-203 combination. This would allow NPC’s to launch grenades and darts from their weapons much like Mira’s rocket launcher in KotOR2 instead of having to throw them.

- Re-introduce Heavy Weapons feats for Repeating blasters and Sniper blasters.


Workbench
- Allow player to build all basic weapon types eg. Vibro-blades, blaster pistols, blaster rifles, Lightsabre’s etc.

- To be able to build basic weapons, player should have to break down one example first with no components received in order to learn how to build that type of weapon.


Thoughts?

RobQel-Droma
12-18-2005, 02:05 AM
Everything but removing short lightsabers and restricting force powers.

Darth Windu
12-18-2005, 02:18 AM
Rob - not sure if you saw it, but I've also added my 'Loadout' idea, that is similar to JA.

Darca Lar
12-18-2005, 04:30 PM
Well, i like the weapon idea with the contents of the gun and sword holsters, the whole idea that it shows the character with these actual things on them rather than its there one second, gone the next. Getting rid of the short lightsabers might be fine from your point of view since they are used just like a standard lightsaber only shorter, but if they changed the style to holding the saber reversed and giving it its own attacks with maybe like spd/evade is higher, but dmg/crit is lower, it could stay. And with the loadout thing, i get what your saying, and i dont think i would mind all that much to have that, but if the loading screens are still there and the return to base option isnt, then the loadout thing would kinda suck. Put in the return to base option and take out the loading screen wait times, then the loadout thing might not be a bad thing really...

RobQel-Droma
12-18-2005, 06:15 PM
Hmm, I missed that Darth Windu. I'd have to say no, I guess. While I think it is a good idea and all, it still wouldn't be as fun for me. It would be more realistic, and maybe make the game more interesting, probably. But the fact is, I guess it is just my personal preference.

Jackel
12-18-2005, 06:51 PM
Attacks
- Player should be able to chose default attack for all NPC party members and self. For example, player could choose a party member to use Flurry as their default attack, which that character would use without any external input.
I say just make the AI smarter so they use the best attack anyway, what if oyu ome across a character that is immune to critical strikes and you have your NPCs using critical strike? Their attacks wouldnt do anything and you would then have to go in and change their attacks anyway.

Classes
- Non-Jedi Prestige classes should be introduced with LS and DS variants. These would be

Soldier --> Peacekeeper (LS) / Mercenary (DS)
Scout --> Commando (LS) / Bounty Hunter (DS)
Scoundrel --> Smuggler (LS) / Slaver (DS)

These classes would give access to various feats/abilities similar to those obtained in the Jedi Prestige classes.
Non Jedi prestiage classes sound good to me, just aslong as they are don well and are balanced.

- Jedi Master should be renamed Jedi Force Master, while Sith Lord should be renamed. These titles are indicative of Rank, not ‘path’. For example, irrespective of what class you are, you will still be either a Jedi Master or Sith Lord.
Dont really care either way about this.

Feats
- Allow associated Prestige classes access to class-specific feats. For example, if player chooses Jedi Sentinel --> Jedi Weapon Master, player should be able to choose Force Jump feats. These would not be automatically granted however.
Maybe maybe not, depends what the rules for the game (the original d20 version which this is based on) says.

Force Powers
- Restrict certain ‘iconic’ force powers to either Light Side or Dark Side. In this case, Force Heal could only be used by a LS Jedi, while Force Lightning could only be used by a DS Sith. Neutral players would not be able to use either.
NO NO NO NO NO.

"Im evil! I attack! I get hurt! I must resort to med packs to heal me! Oh noes I run out of dem! I die rather then being able to force the force to heal me to make me stronger!"

- Restrict the final tier of force powers, eg Master Force Speed, Master Force Valour etc to Prestige classes only. This would show a much greater difference between Masters and Knights/Padawans.
Pretty much done. You must be a certain level before you get them anyway and your PC is usually a prestiage class at that level anyway. But yeah sounds fine on paper.

Lightsabre
- Remove short lightsabres. They are for all intents and purposes useless.
In your opinion they are useless. Lets just get rid of vibroblades, guns, armour etc, in my opinion they are useless because I dont use them even though everyone else might.

Lightsabre crystals
- Give colour crystals small bonuses that reflect the Jedi/Sith that would be using them. These would be

Blue, Cyan = +1 Dexterity
Yellow, Orange = +1 Intelligence
Green, Veridian = +1 Wisdom
Red, Purple = +1 Strength
Silver, Bronze etc = +1 Charisma
No. If I use a counseller and I want them to be stronger I would have to use a red saber. What if I want them to use a veridian one but get the bonus?

Its the same as restricting force powers based on DS or LS, not a good idea.

Loadout
- Party Members should have to load up on weapons/items before leaving the Hawk
Ugh no. Just no.

- Add more weapon-carriage places for party members, such as Pistol Holsters (thighs) and a backstrap for Blades, Rifles etc.
I wouldnt mind seeing the weapons I give my characters on them as part of their outfit, if they were on their back / thigh as you were exploring and not in your hands. Running around with swords or blasters out looked stupid to me anyway. If just as oyu entered combat they character pulled out his swords / guns (which ever was in weapon spot 1) and started using them it would be good.

- Allow party members to carry 'holdout blaster's' on their arms, where Energy Shields are carried, much like Mira's rocket launcher. At present, 'Holdout' blasters are useless because they are simply not powerful enough, especially considering there are many much more powerful pistols out there.
Never used holdout blasters, prefered to use either blow the bad guys away or slice and dice them. They usually dont need to be stunned or held in place while I do so.

NPC reaction to player’s clothes
- NPC’s should react to what the player is wearing, which currently does not happen. For example, an NPC will react exactly the same to you regardless of whether you are wearing Dark Jedi robes with a Red double-bladed lightsabre, or wearing Jedi robes with a Blue or Green lightsabre. This would be similar to how NPC’s react to you on Taris in KotOR if you are wearing the Sith Uniform or not.
I dont really want to have to keep changing my clothes to "fit in" so to speak. What if oyu are suddenly ambushed by a bunch of guys carrying big heavy guns ... oopsey to fit in to the area you are wearing clothes. Not the best protection against weapon fire. It wouldnt make for much fun. Especially as you cant sudenly change your armour in the middle of combat.

Random Item placement
- All unique items, such as Onasi Blaster, Jolee’s Robes etc should be non-random.
Agreed, it wouldnt make sense for that evil sith saber from K1 to be spawned in the middle of Dantooine rather then the sith trial tomb.

- Shopkeepers and items should be divided into levels.
Not really a good idea, there should be a chance that each shopkeeper has certain items but saying "guy with cheap stuff cant have expensive good stuff" doesnt really make for fun roleplaying, look at auctions, sometimes you find something at a auction that is really worth paying for but might be worth a lot more then the other items there.

- All other loot etc should be random, but in keeping with where the loot is coming from. For example, Dark Jedi wielding Red lightsabre’s shouldn’t drop Jedi robes and Blue/Green sabres.
Agreeds mostly, dark jedi / light side jedi should drop things related to what they are wearing carrying.

Swoop racing
Never bothered with swoop racing except where we were forced to so dont really care for it.

Weapons
- Add Sniper rifles.

- Add Assault Rifles.
We already have repeating blasters and heavy guns in game so another one isnt really needed.
- Re-introduce Heavy Weapons feats for Repeating blasters and Sniper blasters.
Guess I never noticed they were mising ...

Workbench
- Allow player to build all basic weapon types eg. Vibro-blades, blaster pistols, blaster rifles, Lightsabre’s etc.
All but lightsabers and unique items. I dont want to be able to make Jolees Robe on the Hawk' etc. But normal robes, swords, armour etc yeah sure.

- To be able to build basic weapons, player should have to break down one example first with no components received in order to learn how to build that type of weapon.
Id prefer if a work bench was more like a computer that already had the plans their for you to view while you build an item. I dont want to be forced to give up some of my items just so I can recreate them, this would be a penalty to the player. ie They start the game with a vibroblade, we find a workbencha nd decide to make another vibroblade. We would have to give up the one we have, but oopsey w find we dont have enough components to make two vibroblades seeing we dont get components back from breaking the one we had down. In fact seeing we didnt have components first we cant even make one! Yah! We now have no vibroblades at all and are now weaponsless.

RobQel-Droma
12-18-2005, 11:15 PM
Meh, guess I'll give my ideas and thoughts too, since the other thread is gone.

Classes
- Non-Jedi Prestige classes should be introduced with LS and DS variants. These would be

Soldier --> Peacekeeper (LS) / Mercenary (DS)

Personally, I think you should change "peacekeeper" to something else, it doesn't sound right at all. How about this:

Soldier ---> Commando (LS)/ Mercenary (DS)
Scout ---> Ranger (LS)/ Bounty Hunter (DS)
~(Keep scoundrel the same)~

I know you think that "Commando" should be for scouts, but I say have a scout become a "Ranger" if LS. If you remember, in the beginning of K1, if you were a soldier, Trask remarks about you being an elite commando; He doesn't say that if you were a scout, he just says something about exploring worlds, which fits a "Ranger."



As Jackel said, just because you think they are useless doesn't mean other people don't use them. They can have their uses, and they do help in the offhand, even if you don't notice it.

And they aren't exactly detrimental, so why get rid of them? You don't have to use them, you know. In fact, one thing that would be nice is to maybe make it so that if you wield two at the same time it adds another attack, or something, just to increase their usefulness.

[QUOTE=Darth Windu]Lightsabre crystals
- Give colour crystals small bonuses that reflect the Jedi/Sith that would be using them.

Yes, I have thought about that too. I was thinking along the lines that since blue (or shades of blue) is used by a Guardian, give bonuses that are suited to a Guardian. Same for the other classes. Also, what about giving the "in-between colors" (colors that are the combination of a Jedi color and Sith red: Orange, Purple, etc.) a combination of a Sith bonus and Jedi bonus?

Swoop racing ~snip~

Yes, although I think that you should purchase one later than the beginning. I like the rest, I was dissapointed that stuff wasn't in the first two games.

To go along with that, I'll add something. What about having different races where you are actually racing other people on the track at the same time, like podracing? You'd have bigger tracks, and it wouldn't really depend on time. That is what I wanted to do on swoop racing in K1 and TSL, but it was timed races instead.

- Add Sniper rifles. These would have a very long range and high power, but ineffective at short range and a long time between shots.

And probably be very good at Sniper Shot, too. I've always wondered why there hasn't been a sniper weapon so far.

- Restrict certain ‘iconic’ force powers to either Light Side or Dark Side. In this case, Force Heal could only be used by a LS Jedi, while Force Lightning could only be used by a DS Sith. Neutral players would not be able to use either.

You know what I think, but I'll post it anyways. No. I'm usually a Jedi and I really like Force Storm. Besides, trust me, penalties are enough. One time I gave myself Force Crush as a Jedi, and I could only use it ONCE before I ran out of enough force. Trust me, its good as it is. I usually don't waste stuff on Charisma, so that is probably my lowest attribute- I don't need restrictions.

Have you ever tried using Master Heal as a super dark character? Even though you can use it, it is just plain not practical or efficient. And that is the way it should be- Sith should be able to use it, but not to any kind of efficiency. It just is anothing thing that would make the game terrible for some people, because the devs decided that they can't use a certain force power no matter what. Not to mention it would contradict everything in the last two games.

And about the grey Jedi, NO. That goes against what a grey Jedi is, in fact. They aren't outcasts that can't draw from the force, they are people who have left the Jedi because they aren't satisfied with them, nor are they with the Sith. So, they usually create their own set of beliefs about the force taking from both sides- they are the middle of good and evil, so they are drawing from both, as they see fit.

Darth Windu
12-19-2005, 12:44 AM
NO NO NO NO NO.

"Im evil! I attack! I get hurt! I must resort to med packs to heal me! Oh noes I run out of dem! I die rather then being able to force the force to heal me to make me stronger!"
Remember that you would still have free access to Force Drain Life, and characters would still automatically regenerate health.

No. If I use a counseller and I want them to be stronger I would have to use a red saber. What if I want them to use a veridian one but get the bonus?

Its the same as restricting force powers based on DS or LS, not a good idea.
No. If you had a consular and you wanted them to be stronger, you could use implants, robes etc. As for your Veridian comment, I don't follow. The idea here is that, as KotOR pointed out, Lightsabre colours are linked to certain classes. Therefore, if colour crystals had bonuses, they should reflect the class they are linked to. Hence, as the Consular is force based, Green and Veridian would boost Wisdom. Sentinel is skills based, so Yellow and Orange boost Intelligence. Guardian is combat yet as Jedi are supposed to use it for defence, Blue and Cyan add to dexterity, while the Sith who use the force to attack get an addition to strength for Red and Purple. As the others don't fit in well elsewhere, they get an addition to charisma.

In terms of restricting force powers, it's completely different. There would be no penalties or restrictions as to what sabre colour you use, just bonuses.


I dont really want to have to keep changing my clothes to "fit in" so to speak. What if oyu are suddenly ambushed by a bunch of guys carrying big heavy guns ... oopsey to fit in to the area you are wearing clothes. Not the best protection against weapon fire. It wouldnt make for much fun. Especially as you cant sudenly change your armour in the middle of combat.
Uh, well then you're an idiot for not wearing armour/robes in that area now aren't ya? Just seems to me that it would add more depth to the areas you're wandering around in.


Not really a good idea, there should be a chance that each shopkeeper has certain items but saying "guy with cheap stuff cant have expensive good stuff" doesnt really make for fun roleplaying, look at auctions, sometimes you find something at a auction that is really worth paying for but might be worth a lot more then the other items there.
Perhaps, but this isnt an auction. In general, shops are divided into categories depending on what they sell. For example, you're not going to find Diamond Rings worth thousands of dollars at Kmart now are you?


We already have repeating blasters and heavy guns in game so another one isnt really needed.
Sniper Rifles are completely different, as are Assault Rifles.


Id prefer if a work bench was more like a computer that already had the plans their for you to view while you build an item. I dont want to be forced to give up some of my items just so I can recreate them, this would be a penalty to the player. ie They start the game with a vibroblade, we find a workbencha nd decide to make another vibroblade. We would have to give up the one we have, but oopsey w find we dont have enough components to make two vibroblades seeing we dont get components back from breaking the one we had down. In fact seeing we didnt have components first we cant even make one! Yah! We now have no vibroblades at all and are now weaponsless.
Well then you're an idiot for breaking down your only weapon. You're assuming that people won't think about these things - I'm sure they will. It doesn't take a great deal of intelligence to figure out that if you break down your only weapon, you won't have a weapon anymore.


Personally, I think you should change "peacekeeper" to something else, it doesn't sound right at all
Yeah I know, I can't think of anything else though.

As for the Scout --> Commando, if you're a Scout in KotOR, Carth says you 'have the skills of an elite Commando'. Besides, Commandoes really do have more in common with Scout's than Soldiers. As for 'Ranger', the problem with that is it's US-specific. Everyone knows what a Commando is, but the Rangers aren't as well known. Funnily enough, the reason the US forces are called Rangers is because the Brit's already had the name 'Commando' :)

Emperor Devon
12-19-2005, 02:23 AM
Soldier --> Peacekeeper (LS) / Mercenary (DS)
Scout --> Commando (LS) / Bounty Hunter (DS)
Scoundrel --> Smuggler (LS) / Slaver (DS)

Mmm, not quite. Smugglers and commandos could be evil. I like that idea, but I don't think the alignment part is needed. Best to save that for the Jedi classes. It might be best like this:

Scoundrel -> Smuggler

Scout -> Mercenary

Soldier -> Commando

- Jedi Master should be renamed Jedi Force Master, while Sith Lord should be renamed. These titles are indicative of Rank, not ‘path’. For example, irrespective of what class you are, you will still be either a Jedi Master or Sith Lord.

I disagree. I would not like my character to be classified as a "Sith Force Master".


Blue, Cyan = +1 Dexterity
Yellow, Orange = +1 Intelligence
Green, Veridian = +1 Wisdom
Red, Purple = +1 Strength
Silver, Bronze etc = +1 Charisma

That is unrealistic. Simply using different color crystals does not affect the properties of a lightsaber. Red crystals actually do slightly more damage, but apart from that, none of them have any unique attributes apart from color.

- Shopkeepers and items should be divided into levels. For example, a level 1 shopkeeper would stock very basic items, but they would be completely random basic items. To the same extent, a high level shopkeeper would stock only the best items, but would have randomised selections of the best items.

Some shopkeepers should have better items than others, but there is no reason to give them levels.

What I did not quote I agreed with.

RobQel-Droma
12-19-2005, 02:42 AM
As for the Scout --> Commando, if you're a Scout in KotOR, Carth says you 'have the skills of an elite Commando'

I don't really remember him saying that. I do remember Trask saying that you are an elite commando if you are a soldier. Of course, you could look at it one way and say that just because Carth said you had the "skills" of one didn't mean he said you were one.

No. If I use a counseller and I want them to be stronger I would have to use a red saber. What if I want them to use a veridian one but get the bonus?

Its the same as restricting force powers based on DS or LS, not a good idea.

Not really- with anything else can you choose what bonus you get? No, you can't. And the idea isn't restricitive, it is adding something to you. May not be what you want, but still; Any bonus is better than no bonus, and the idea doesn't penalize someone.

Emperor Devon
12-19-2005, 03:32 AM
I don't really remember him saying that. I do remember Trask saying that you are an elite commando if you are a soldier. Of course, you could look at it one way and say that just because Carth said you had the "skills" of one didn't mean he said you were one.

Carth only says that if you're a male character.

RedHawke
12-19-2005, 03:42 AM
My humble suggestion Darth Windu is to go out and find a copy of the Basic Star Wars D20 RPG Book (by Wizards of the Coast), read it and soak in how the game works and it's rules, then re-work your ideas to fit into that system.

As things like assault rifles don't exist in that game system, you want Repeating Blasters for this weapon type, a Light Repeating Blaster is equal to an Assault Rifle.

Class names cannot be changed as they are fixed classes bound by the system. in D20 D&D a Paladin is a Paladin, you can feel free to call your Paladin character a High Templar if you want to in the game as you are roleplaying him/her, but your actual class is fixed as a Paladin, the same applies to D20 Star Wars. A Sith Lord is a Sith Lord, you can call yours a High Priest of Wacca Wacca if you want to in-game, you are still a Sith Lord Class.

Also basic weapons (aka Color Crystals, Basic Sabers) cannot possess any "Magical" type bonuses, remember this only applies to the basic ones, not unique ones you could find later, like say a Marka Ragnos Vein of Hate Color Crystal. It can have bonuses, but basic weapons do not. ;)

Lastly, your whole Force and Feat adjustments are out of place because you lack an understanding of the game system itself, but once you read up on it I think this part could change.

Little things like this. Once you read up a little and see what the games rules say or don't say, if you adhere to those rules when re-working your ideas you will be far better off.

Again just a humble suggestion! :D

Darth Windu
12-19-2005, 04:56 AM
RedHawke - how do I find a copy of the D20 rules?

As for the colour crystals, are they not magical? After all, if bonuses were added to them, then they would be no different to any of the other crystals in terms of modifiers.

With the feats, why wouldn't that be possible? I've actually just modified the feats.2da file for TSL which should give, for example, Force Jump feats to Weapons Masters at levels 18, 24 and 30. Whether it works or not is another thing.

Oh yeah, why can't an Assault Rifle exist? Firstly, it's not a light repeating blaster - different weapon. The Assault Rifle would have the same properties as the normal Blaster Rifle, but with the added ability to fire grenades like Mira's launcher.

RedHawke
12-19-2005, 06:00 AM
RedHawke - how do I find a copy of the D20 rules?
Your best bet is either a Bookstore, RPG Game Shop, or EBay.com (http://www.ebay.com/)... Or here at Amazon.com (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/078692876X/ref=pd_sim_b_3/102-8497484-7831340?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance&n=283155) :D

As for the colour crystals, are they not magical? After all, if bonuses were added to them, then they would be no different to any of the other crystals in terms of modifiers.
Any bonuses on a color crystal or saber, especially ones that add an attack/defense bonus, attribute bonuses, or blaster bolt deflection bonus are considered supernatural or "Magical" in game terms. Attribute bonuses are among the most powerful bonuses you can give an item.

Stock normal game items almost never have these kinds of bonuses. And the basic color crystals create the basic sabers listed in the RPG book and the game, they have no bonuses for a reason as they are meant to be starting equipment, and in RPG terms you never give starting characters equipment with those kinds of bonuses. The add-on crystals and upgrades that you find or make later on are the actual "Magical" bonus adding part of the lightsaber process, it should stay that way.

While unique color crystals should exist that give bonuses, bonuses should never be applied to the standard saber color crystals.

While there is no problem finding a Vein of Evil, or Source of Light unique color crystal during play that gives huge bonuses to my saber, you should never apply any bonuses to base game items. This is what we in PnP RPG circles call a "Monty Haul" type game, with beginning equipment like this why go adventuring? ;)

With the feats, why wouldn't that be possible? I've actually just modified the feats.2da file for TSL which should give, for example, Force Jump feats to Weapons Masters at levels 18, 24 and 30. Whether it works or not is another thing.
Just because you can do it in a 2da files does not mean it fits the games rules system... Class Feats are almost never available to anyone else for the simple reason there is no need to play a certain class if everyone can get those Feats, even Prestiege Classes (Who have their own bonuses).

Also remember in the eyes of the game system when you switch to another class or Prestiege class you no longer gain expirience as your previous base class, that is why Force Jump will not be able to be improved by even a synergious class like a Jedi Weapon Master or Sith Marauder, you have become another class completely, and immediately halt any and all advancement in your previous class, you don't lose anything, but the old classes abilities and bonuses will never improve. This is all part of the necissary checks and balances in a game system, without these the game loses it's fun factor, believe me. :)

Oh yeah, why can't an Assault Rifle exist? Firstly, it's not a light repeating blaster - different weapon. The Assault Rifle would have the same properties as the normal Blaster Rifle, but with the added ability to fire grenades like Mira's launcher.
Simple, it is Star Wars, there are no "Assault Rifles" that is very much an Earth based weapon term. Not to mention it isn't on the base weapons list.

But I never said the weapon "couldn't exist" I just was saying to you that the term wouldn't exist and what it would be called in Star Wars. (See Below) ;)

Under barrel (M-203) Grenade Launchers are not standard game Blaster Rifle components as they have limited use in Star Wars compared to our world. But they are an optional Blaster Rifle attachment (At least we use them in our games, but we play D6 Star Wars so there are differences)... but these are House Rules at best. I have just looked and there are no listed Grenade Launchers in the base equipment, while I'm sure they do exist in D20 SW, they aren't in the base book.

Just for FYI and some typing fun, some simple Star Wars RPG to Our World Weapon class equivalents... What you call them in Star Wars.

Assault Rifle = Blaster Rifle (Small Calibur, M-16) or Light Repeating Blaster (Large Calibur, AK-47)
Sniper Rifle = Blaster Rifle, Sporting
Small Caliber Pistol = Hold-Out Blaster
Target Pistol = Blaster Pistol, Sporting
Med. Cal. Pistol = Blaster Pistol
Magnum Pistol = Heavy Blaster Pistol
Machine Gun = Heavy Repeating Blaster
Light Machine Gun = Repeating Blaster or Light Repeating Blaster
SMG = Blaster Carbine
Anti-Tank Weapon (Bazooka, RPG, LAW, HAW) = Blaster Cannon

You can acertain this from the item descriptions in the game book, but I put this here to give you a head start.

I hope this helps explain some of the things! :D

RobQel-Droma
12-19-2005, 02:29 PM
Talking about classes, there is something else I would like to know. Since Redhawke seems to know everything about RPGs, is it possible to make it so you could level up a character as a previous class: for example, leveling up Bao-Dur one time as a Tech Specialist even though his current class is Jedi Guardian?

Oh yeah, why can't an Assault Rifle exist? Firstly, it's not a light repeating blaster - different weapon.

There I disagree with you, I think that an "Assault Rifle" is pretty much the repeating blasters. Besides, why do we really need a weapon that is pretty much the same as another? The grenade thing doesn't do much, besides a different animation- you might as well just throw them.

As for the colour crystals, are they not magical? After all, if bonuses were added to them, then they would be no different to any of the other crystals in terms of modifiers.

Well, I don't think they are magical, although I like the idea. But as far as realism I agree with Redhawke, the crystal in itself wouldn't have special powers. Of course, he also said something about "Marka Ragnos's Vein of Hate Crystal", and I think that is a good idea, having special crystals, for instance: Bring back the MotF and HotG, have other special crystals, like the one mentioned (VoH) and perhaps others, to have even more special color crystals.

Darth Windu
12-20-2005, 01:36 AM
Well with the colour crystals, thats why I liked KotOR a bit better. It made sense to me that the normal colours - Red, Purple, Yellow, Green, Blue do normal stuff, while the oddly coloured ones like Cyan had some special properties.

RedHawke
12-20-2005, 01:43 AM
Talking about classes, there is something else I would like to know. Since Redhawke seems to know everything about RPGs, is it possible to make it so you could level up a character as a previous class: for example, leveling up Bao-Dur one time as a Tech Specialist even though his current class is Jedi Guardian?
Nope, once you accept the new class you are literally forgoing any further advancement in your previous class... this has to be done for game balance issues.

Well, I don't think they are magical, although I like the idea.
Anything supernatural I refer to Magical simply because D20 has it's roots in Dungeons & Dragons, and items with properties like those were called "Magic Items"... in the eyes of the D20 game system they are "Magic" because of this relation to it's Fantasy cousin, so is the Force the realm of Magic. ;)

Darth Windu
12-20-2005, 11:56 PM
Okay, I've now refined my idea for 'loadout'. What I'm thinking now is that you have different weapons-carrying places. These would be

1. Thighs (new) - can carry two single-handed weapons such as vibro-blades, lightsabres, blaster pistols etc

2. Back (new) - can carry one two-handed weapon such as double-bladed lightsabre, blaster rifle etc

3. Forcearms (old) - in addition to energy shields, can carry two 'holdout' (aka miniature) blasters

This would fit in with the KotOR2 system of carrying two weapons you can quickly switch between. So, for example, if carrying two lightsabres on your thighs and a rifle on your back, your sabres would be your primary weapon and your 'switch' weapon would be the rifle.

Thoughts?

RobQel-Droma
12-21-2005, 12:27 AM
Well, seeing as how I don't really like the idea, I couldn't really offer anything. :D But if it was implemented, what about this: You know those "metal cases" that were lying around in TSL? What if you got to take x many of those for every character you take out, along with a backpack on each of them. The metal cases and backpacks would have to have a item limit, but it would still work.

After all, it is a good bet that your party members could carry something like that around, as long as it wasn't so heavy or filled with 40 or more items. Just have a rating for the items, like "heavy," "light", "medium", "miniscule." Then have a value you could get it up too before you couldn't fit anything else. Have the option to take things out of there like it was your regular inventory, but then make it so they would go straight back to that same case/pack, just to not have so much micro-managing every time you leave.

As for your idea, you could have that too- alternate weapons on your back or belt. And I bet that belts, implants, stims, medpacks, shields, and maybe another set of gloves could all be carried on you or on pouches in your clothes.

The only problem with having all of this (beside the fact that I'm not too keen on the idea) is the amount of complexity and time it would add too the game, and all the managing you would have to do just so you could set foot outside the Hawk. So, I don't really want this idea too happen, but if it does, I'll just have to hope that something like what I suggested will be used. :D

Mmm, not quite. Smugglers and commandos could be evil.

Umm... What do you mean? Commando doesn't really imply any side at all, it is not an "evil" name like Assassin; Soldiers could be evil too, if they were Sith. So what you are saying doesn't really mean anything. A lot of other names for classes "could" be evil people, possibly. It is just a rank, one that isn't usually thought of as evil.

As for Smuggler, well, what about Scoundrel? Scoundrel doesn't really sound like a LS person, although they might not be DS necessarily. Han Solo was a smuggler, and he wasn't evil. Smugglers aren't mostly evil people, just kind of law-breakers- much like a Scoundrel is. Again, not relevant that they "could" be evil, and mostly not true.

That is unrealistic. Simply using different color crystals does not affect the properties of a lightsaber. Red crystals actually do slightly more damage, but apart from that, none of them have any unique attributes apart from color.

So is living through 5 plasma grenades- and living to do it again. :) Many things are "unrealistic." But anyways, I understand what you are saying, and it might be "unrealistic" in a KotOR sense, but still- most color crystals are found on certain planets (green/blue on Ilum, purple on Hurikaine, etc.), so it isn't that farfetched that they might inherit small properties.

Darth Windu
12-21-2005, 12:35 AM
Well Rob, as I said, the system would be like JA. In that game, you get to take your lighsabre (or sabres), a blaster pistol, two extra weapons, and some grenades. Obviously that's too much to be realistic, but just having the items limited a bit adds some realism.

In that sense I wouldn't have a problem with ading more items but as I said, while you're wandering around, any items you found would be useable in the same way they are in the previous games, it's just that you can't take lots of items from the Hawk, not that you can't carry them. :)

JediMaster12
12-21-2005, 01:45 PM
Lightsabre
- Remove short lightsabres. They are for all intents and purposes useless.


They are NOT useless. With the right upgrades, they can be made into some deadly weapons especially if used in the Off hand


Lightsabre crystals
- Give colour crystals small bonuses that reflect the Jedi/Sith that would be using them. These would be

Blue, Cyan = +1 Dexterity
Yellow, Orange = +1 Intelligence
Green, Veridian = +1 Wisdom
Red, Purple = +1 Strength
Silver, Bronze etc = +1 Charisma


I'll give you credit on this mainly because the power crystals used to enhance the blade work similarly, mostly for attack/defense mods but I think one plays to your attributes. So 10+ points for you

Darth Windu
12-22-2005, 06:29 AM
Alright, main post has now been changed to remove the 'remove short sabres' bit. Obviously some people want them and really it doesn't affect those who don't use them.

RobQel-Droma
12-22-2005, 03:39 PM
You've seen the light! :D Exactly as you said, some people use them, and the people that don't don't have to use them- there's no skin off of anyone's nose.

Darth Windu
12-23-2005, 01:33 AM
See Rob, I can be reasonable every now and then :)

RobQel-Droma
12-23-2005, 01:35 PM
You- you can? *jaw drops*... Just kidding. :D

Now, don't you think that you ought to follow that up by dropping the saber idea... :D

Jackel
12-23-2005, 07:07 PM
Sorry for not replying sooner - was away for several days on holiday and had no access to a comp at all! (bad idea that , must by a laptop :P)
Remember that you would still have free access to Force Drain Life, and characters would still automatically regenerate health.
But forcing someone to choose Power X and saying "you cant choose power z" is not a roleplaying thing, I want to roleplay a slightly evil guy who still uses force heal as it is part of his background story, bring told "nope you cant do that" breaks immersion in the game and forces me to end up using certain force powers, this would make all "bad guys" exactly the same, they would have access to only powers that are restricted to darkside and no access to lightside powers. As someone else stated, you are already penalised for using lightside powers when darkside, banning darksiders or lightsiders from using certain powers is an extra penalty.

No. If you had a consular and you wanted them to be stronger, you could use implants, robes etc. As for your Veridian comment, I don't follow. The idea here is that, as KotOR pointed out, Lightsabre colours are linked to certain classes. Therefore, if colour crystals had bonuses, they should reflect the class they are linked to. Hence, as the Consular is force based, Green and Veridian would boost Wisdom. Sentinel is skills based, so Yellow and Orange boost Intelligence. Guardian is combat yet as Jedi are supposed to use it for defence, Blue and Cyan add to dexterity, while the Sith who use the force to attack get an addition to strength for Red and Purple. As the others don't fit in well elsewhere, they get an addition to charisma.
This has already been dealt with by Red, I agree with what he said.

I never really liked the "guardians use blue, sentinals use yellow etc" thing anyway, my character is my character, and my character will use what ever colour they like because it fits the character which is what I would be roleplaying, not the class.
In terms of restricting force powers, it's completely different. There would be no penalties or restrictions as to what sabre colour you use, just bonuses.

Uh, well then you're an idiot for not wearing armour/robes in that area now aren't ya? Just seems to me that it would add more depth to the areas you're wandering around in.
And your an idot for making the suggestion, anyway your suggestion was NPC's react to what you wear, to make them feel more comfortable around you wearing clothes/robes would be better then wearing heavy armour, if you are wondering around in an area in your clothes having people like you and bad guys appear your stuck in your clothes.
Perhaps, but this isnt an auction. In general, shops are divided into categories depending on what they sell. For example, you're not going to find Diamond Rings worth thousands of dollars at Kmart now are you?
Depends on how badly your local K-Mart is run :p

Thats the thing though, the mercahnts int he game ARENT chain stores selling the same goods on every planet, they are individuals seeing what comes in to their possesion, if a thief has to get rid of an item that is worth a pile of money he might sellit to that semi dodgy guy in the under world of coruscant, who you then come across and he offers to sell it to you. Your way of doing it would mean you would have to keep going to different mercahnts trying to find someone that sold "level 3" goods, not fun.

Sniper Rifles are completely different, as are Assault Rifles.
I was going to write something about siper rifles in my original post, but forgot to and now cant recall what it was ...

Well then you're an idiot for breaking down your only weapon. You're assuming that people won't think about these things - I'm sure they will. It doesn't take a great deal of intelligence to figure out that if you break down your only weapon, you won't have a weapon anymore.
You're an idiot for assuming everyone knows they wont get components for breaking down their first type of a weapon, It doesnt take a great deal of intelligence to know your idea is stupid.

Darth Windu
12-23-2005, 11:01 PM
Rob - what Sabre idea? You mean the LS/DS modifiers for twin blades/double-blade? I've already dropped that.

Jackel - in terms of armour, thats not what I mean. I'm talking about LS/DS, not looking heavily armed. For example, if you were in Iraq and a US/Australian/British etc soldier turned up with their whole kit - kevlar vest, M-16 etc - would you be frightened or reassured?

Also for the 'breakdown item to learn how to build it' - you would think that, as with KotOR and KotOR2, there would be a small tutorial section that would introduce players to the changes made in KotOR3. Besides, you would be able to buy plans for weapons as well.

RedHawke
12-24-2005, 01:08 AM
*Puts on new moderator cap*

Lay off the name calling ("idiots" comments) in your posts folks... ;)

RobQel-Droma
12-24-2005, 02:20 PM
You're an idiot for assuming everyone knows they wont get components for breaking down their first type of a weapon, It doesnt take a great deal of intelligence to know your idea is stupid.

Well, I'm not quite sure what that means. It does tell you how many components you'll get from breaking down a weapon, so I must be missing something here... If I'm not, I'd have to agree with Darth Windu- if you didn't pay attention, that is your fault. BTW, I'm intelligent and I agree with him. :dozey:

Rok_stoned
12-28-2005, 01:34 AM
Okay windu most of these ideas are awesome and Iv'e thought of them too, others are awesome and completly undreamed of by most. However I think some need a bit of tweaking For example Mercenaries and bounty hunters are neutral maybe for scout it could be "infiltrator", or "spy" and for soldier it could be "spartan" "Warrior" "Myrmidon" (yeah my soldier names suck)

wahtbut about your RPG attachement thingie MARK VI What if there was a weapon slot in your... weapon that you could place attachements like a bayonette (melee penalties removed) laser sight (+accuracy) or stun attachement (stun chance).

Darth Windu
12-28-2005, 10:29 PM
Rok - thanks, and that bayonet attachement is actually a pretty good idea, maybe with a small penalty for ranged shots due to the added weight and unbalancing effect.

Rok_stoned
12-29-2005, 01:28 PM
Thanx I suggested that stuff months ago and it never caught on... I never thought of the weight thing tho yeah it might and penalty to pistols (especially holdouts!).

Darth Windu
12-30-2005, 02:37 AM
Well I was thinking more of bayonets on Rifles, not pistols - they can't handle them.

Vaelastraz
12-30-2005, 11:20 AM
I agree with most of the ideas.

But:
Lightsabre crystals
- Give colour crystals small bonuses that reflect the Jedi/Sith that would be using them. These would be

Blue, Cyan = +1 Dexterity
Yellow, Orange = +1 Intelligence
Green, Veridian = +1 Wisdom
Red, Purple = +1 Strength
Silver, Bronze etc = +1 Charisma

No, i'd like to choose my saber color without being limited to certain colors to become stronger... even if i play as a sith i want to use a blue saber because I like a dark dressed jedi/sith with a blue saber. Saber upgrades are nice but leave the colors out.

Force Powers
- Restrict certain ‘iconic’ force powers to either Light Side or Dark Side. In this case, Force Heal could only be used by a LS Jedi, while Force Lightning could only be used by a DS Sith. Neutral players would not be able to use either.

No! On the contrary, iam really for the possibility to play a "Gray" jedi, someone who knows the light side as well as the dark side (like Revan or Jolee). Why taking away the fun to use many force powers?


All your other ideas are nice.
I've also an idea:

Make using 2 Sabers, Double bladed saber AND one saber alone equal. I Dont want to be forced to use 2 sabers to get the maximum of stat boosts (crystals). Why should a master of 2 sabers be more powerful than someone who mastered using only 1 Saber?
I Dont want them to be exactly the same but i wish the decision between 1 saber 2 sabers or double saber would be only a matter of personal preference.

jedi3112
12-30-2005, 01:17 PM
First let's start with Windu's ideas

- Attacks
- Player should be able to chose default attack for all NPC party members and self. For example, player could choose a party member to use Flurry as their default attack, which that character would use without any external input.

I think this is quite usefull. I always hated it when my other charactes ran out of attacks, or when you just killed one enemy and attacked the next one automaticly with normal. I also think Force Jump should be attached to this list, I wouldn't want my NPC's to go run off for Flurry when they can open with FJ.

- Classes
- Non-Jedi Prestige classes should be introduced with LS and DS variants. These would be

Soldier --> Peacekeeper (LS) / Mercenary (DS)
Scout --> Commando (LS) / Bounty Hunter (DS)
Scoundrel --> Smuggler (LS) / Slaver (DS)

I agree with ED here

- Jedi Master should be renamed Jedi Force Master, while Sith Lord should be renamed. These titles are indicative of Rank, not ‘path’. For example, irrespective of what class you are, you will still be either a Jedi Master or Sith Lord.

I can see your point here, though I don't have any good names for the Sith Lord. Still any Sith class is a Sith Lord. As well as Any Jedi with a prestige class is a Jedi Master.

- Feats
- Allow associated Prestige classes access to class-specific feats. For example, if player chooses Jedi Sentinel --> Jedi Weapon Master, player should be able to choose Force Jump feats. These would not be automatically granted however.

With RH on this point

- Force Powers
- Restrict certain ‘iconic’ force powers to either Light Side or Dark Side. In this case, Force Heal could only be used by a LS Jedi, while Force Lightning could only be used by a DS Sith. Neutral players would not be able to use either.

Bonusses and penelties are fine by me, I also want to be able to choose freely from any Force Powers. If you ask me it's not the power you use, but it's the reasoning that makes it LS or DS

- Restrict the final tier of force powers, eg Master Force Speed, Master Force Valour etc to Prestige classes only. This would show a much greater difference between Masters and Knights/Padawans.

I think it works fine the way it is. No need to change it, but I wouldn't be against this idea either.

- Lightsabre crystals
- Give colour crystals small bonuses that reflect the Jedi/Sith that would be using them. These would be

Blue, Cyan = +1 Dexterity
Yellow, Orange = +1 Intelligence
Green, Veridian = +1 Wisdom
Red, Purple = +1 Strength
Silver, Bronze etc = +1 Charisma

I don't really like the idea of a preset bonus to preset color crystals. Please chech my posts here (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=157467) for what I would have done.

- Loadout
- Party Members should have to load up on weapons/items before leaving the Hawk or whatever base you are using at the time, and then have no access to any other weapon you have picked up previously once you leave your base, much like the system used in Jedi Academy. However, if you picked up items while travelling, they would all be accessible to your party members.

I don't really think this is a good idea, going back to get other weapons is something I don't really want to see. Though I do generally only use one set of weapons.

- Add more weapon-carriage places for party members, such as Pistol Holsters (thighs) and a backstrap for Blades, Rifles etc.

Not really sure how you mean that, if it is to actually carry weapons, I think 2 sets of weapons are fine. However I would like to see the weapons holstered when out of combat. Introducing scabbards for swords and holsters for guns where they are actually holstered would be a good idea.

- Allow party members to carry 'holdout blaster's' on their arms, where Energy Shields are carried, much like Mira's rocket launcher. At present, 'Holdout' blasters are useless because they are simply not powerful enough, especially considering there are many much more powerful pistols out there.

Sounds like a good idea to me, however I don't think they should replace your bracers/shields.

- NPC reaction to player’s clothes
- NPC’s should react to what the player is wearing, which currently does not happen. For example, an NPC will react exactly the same to you regardless of whether you are wearing Dark Jedi robes with a Red double-bladed lightsabre, or wearing Jedi robes with a Blue or Green lightsabre. This would be similar to how NPC’s react to you on Taris in KotOR if you are wearing the Sith Uniform or not.

Some form of recognition would be nice, but I don't think it should be taken too far. I think the Sith uniform on Taris would be too much, however if it has a purpose (game wise, like the uniform had) it would be fine. Otherwise/in other places a simple comment would be enough. Not restricting information you get, and not resulting in extra attacks.

- Random Item placement
- All unique items, such as Onasi Blaster, Jolee’s Robes etc should be non-random.

I agree, I always though it was somewhat silly that personal items were quite common.

- Shopkeepers and items should be divided into levels. For example, a level 1 shopkeeper would stock very basic items, but they would be completely random basic items. To the same extent, a high level shopkeeper would stock only the best items, but would have randomised selections of the best items.

I think this would make sense, I've never bought a Ferrari at Burger King

- All other loot etc should be random, but in keeping with where the loot is coming from. For example, Dark Jedi wielding Red lightsabre’s shouldn’t drop Jedi robes and Blue/Green sabres.

A good idea, I also think some attacks should be random (like the sandpeople on Tatooine) and maybe even get upgrade parts (but not 2 of the same from somebody with 1 saber)

- Swoop racing
I never did that, I don't care what you do with it.

- Weapons
- Add Sniper rifles. These would have a very long range and high power, but ineffective at short range and a long time between shots. Effectively, they would be at one extreme, with blaster Rifles in the middle, and Repeating blasters at the other end. This would also lend different attack feats to different weapons. Power Blast would be very useful for Sniper rifles while Rapid Shot would suit Repeating blasters more by accentuating their strengths.

- Add Assault Rifles. Especially rifles similar to modern weapons such as the M-16/M-203 combination. This would allow NPC’s to launch grenades and darts from their weapons much like Mira’s rocket launcher in KotOR2 instead of having to throw them.

Sounds good to me, but just as extra weapons, not with their own line of feats. Also I think sniper shot should be usefull for sniper rifles, instead of powerblast.

- Re-introduce Heavy Weapons feats for Repeating blasters and Sniper blasters.

Agreed

Workbench
- Allow player to build all basic weapon types eg. Vibro-blades, blaster pistols, blaster rifles, Lightsabre’s etc.

- To be able to build basic weapons, player should have to break down one example first with no components received in order to learn how to build that type of weapon.

I think the workbench works fine the way it is (K2). I don't need extra items as there are plenty of everything in the game.

Now something I'd like to see as well is that armor absorbs damage, and not increases the change you avoid getting hit.

RobQel-Droma
12-30-2005, 05:20 PM
No, i'd like to choose my saber color without being limited to certain colors to become stronger... even if i play as a sith i want to use a blue saber because I like a dark dressed jedi/sith with a blue saber. Saber upgrades are nice but leave the colors ou

They aren't limiting you to use a certain color, all of them give bonuses to whoever wields them. Besides, what about MotF and HotG (those super crystals in K1)? Didn't they limit you to a cyan color and orange color? If you used another color you wouldn't get those good bonuses, so how is that any different than this, where you get bonuses on all the crystals?

Make using 2 Sabers, Double bladed saber AND one saber alone equal. I Dont want to be forced to use 2 sabers to get the maximum of stat boosts (crystals). Why should a master of 2 sabers be more powerful than someone who mastered using only 1 Saber?

Actually, if you hadn't noticed, for dual sabers/saberstaff to be a practical weapon for your PC, a person needs to get the Two-Weapon Fighting feats. Otherwise, if you are using a two-handed weapon, the attack and defense have a lot of penalties, unlike the single saber.

The line of feats for the single saber actually increases attack and defense, unlike the two-handed ones which reduce a penalty. So really, a single saber > two sabers/saberstaff, because of the attack/defense penalties. You can't do much good if you can't even hit the enemy. :)

Besides, it makes sense the way it is. You shouldn't be able to have much success wielding a saberstaff/dual sabers, versus a single saber. However, if you can master the weapon, it should become a dangerous weapon. But near the end of TLS I could take on three Sith all with dual/doublebladed sabers, and slaughter them all with a single saber, so it really doesn't do much toward the end.

BattleDog
12-30-2005, 08:33 PM
I like most of those ideas but the bonus for sabre cystals isn't really a great idea while idea of resricting Force powers is just bad. The modifier is good enough to discourage you but consider these points:

1. Each "power" is just a use of the Force, you don't really learn new spells.

2. In the films/books powers aren't restricted, Luke uses choke in ROTJ.

3. Drain life, Force Speed, Wound, and Heal all use the same Force skills. Jump, choke and sabre throw are also the same.

4. What if you change alignments, all those points you spent were wasted.

RobQel-Droma
12-30-2005, 09:21 PM
2. In the films/books powers aren't restricted, Luke uses choke in ROTJ.

Huh? You must have the super special edition or something, because as I remember, Luke never, ever chokes anybody in RotJ. :xp: I think you must be confused with something else.

3. Drain life, Force Speed, Wound, and Heal all use the same Force skills. Jump, choke and sabre throw are also the same.

Don't quite understand this... What do you mean?

Rok_stoned
12-30-2005, 10:25 PM
No he's right Luke uses choke. Think back, when Luke enters Jabba's palace, Luke points to pig-man guy and he staggers back grabbing his throat and gagging.

-Introducing scabbards for swords.

Whats a scabbard? Another word for sheath? Some kind of challange buried in the ground?

Darth Windu
12-31-2005, 02:17 AM
Rob - yeah Luke does use Force Choke on the Gamorean guards in Jabba's palace, and he uses 'force peek' on Leia

BattleDog - yes Luke does use Choke, but look at it this way. Two of the Four Sith Lords we've seen use Force Lightning, yet no Jedi ever uses it. To me, that says that it resricted to the Dark Side, while other DS powers like Choke are not.

Rok_stoned
12-31-2005, 02:21 AM
Plo koon uses lightning.

Vaelastraz
12-31-2005, 10:34 AM
They aren't limiting you to use a certain color, all of them give bonuses to whoever wields them. Besides, what about MotF and HotG (those super crystals in K1)? Didn't they limit you to a cyan color and orange color? If you used another color you wouldn't get those good bonuses, so how is that any different than this, where you get bonuses on all the crystals?

Yes, that's true and i didnt like it in Kotor I , i wish those crystals werent color crystals


Actually, if you hadn't noticed, for dual sabers/saberstaff to be a practical weapon for your PC, a person needs to get the Two-Weapon Fighting feats. Otherwise, if you are using a two-handed weapon, the attack and defense have a lot of penalties, unlike the single saber.

The line of feats for the single saber actually increases attack and defense, unlike the two-handed ones which reduce a penalty. So really, a single saber > two sabers/saberstaff, because of the attack/defense penalties. You can't do much good if you can't even hit the enemy.

Besides, it makes sense the way it is. You shouldn't be able to have much success wielding a saberstaff/dual sabers, versus a single saber. However, if you can master the weapon, it should become a dangerous weapon. But near the end of TLS I could take on three Sith all with dual/doublebladed sabers, and slaughter them all with a single saber, so it really doesn't do much toward the end.

And again.. i know that u can slay 3 sith at once, i did it myself. But with 2 sabers i am much stronger. And the feat u need for dual wielding can be upgraded, for weapon masters even more. Why isnt there a singel saber prestige class upgrade for 1 saber? and i cant see where the superior attack and defense is? even with the feat is is only 3 i think!

Hm i have to find out how to quote things ..

jedi3112
12-31-2005, 03:16 PM
-Introducing scabbards for swords.

Whats a scabbard? Another word for sheath? Some kind of challange buried in the ground?

Yes, a scabbard is a sheat, or a holster for a sword. Though I'm not really sure if they are exactly the same.

Darth Windu
01-01-2006, 12:42 AM
Plo koon uses lightning.
WHAT?!?!?!?!?!

No, he doesn't. In TPM he never got out of the Jedi Temple except for the Naboo victory celebration. In AotC he fought a bit with a lightsabre, and in RotS he got shot down. So where did he use Force Lightning?

Rok_stoned
01-01-2006, 02:05 AM
Yes, a scabbard is a sheat

Whats a sheat some sort of a challange? another word for sheath?
j/k thanks for the clarification

Plo koon uses lightning in jedi power battle as his ranged attack.

lukeiamyourdad
01-01-2006, 04:25 AM
I haven't replied to this, but since I have some time to kill, I'll do it :)


Attacks
- Player should be able to chose default attack for all NPC party members and self. For example, player could choose a party member to use Flurry as their default attack, which that character would use without any external input.

I think smarter AI would solve the problem. Since not every attack is fit for every situation, it's not always a good idea to make the NPC stick with a default one except the multi-purpose normal attack. Critical Strike for example, has a defense penalty and it wouldn't be suited for fighting a group of enemy, yet, the NPC might be forced to use that attack.
Either, I simply think an AI boost is all we need.


Classes
- Non-Jedi Prestige classes should be introduced with LS and DS variants. These would be

Soldier --> Peacekeeper (LS) / Mercenary (DS)
Scout --> Commando (LS) / Bounty Hunter (DS)
Scoundrel --> Smuggler (LS) / Slaver (DS)

I agree with most of it, except Smuggler for Scoundrel. A Smuggler isn't generally a good guy either. I'll think about it.


These classes would give access to various feats/abilities similar to those obtained in the Jedi Prestige classes. For example, the Peacekeeper/Mercenary would get the same extra two-weapon fighting and weapons proficiency feat options as the Jedi Weapon Master. These would also provide an option in terms of training NPC party members. Do you want to train a Soldier as a Jedi Guardian, or as a Peacekeeper/Mercenary?

Wouldn't be too bad an idea, but I don't think there should be a choice between Jedi and a non-Jedi class. Why? 95% of the people will choose the Jedi one.


- Jedi Master should be renamed Jedi Force Master, while Sith Lord should be renamed. These titles are indicative of Rank, not ‘path’. For example, irrespective of what class you are, you will still be either a Jedi Master or Sith Lord.

I agree with this. Maybe not Force Master, but something more classy and less direct to the point. I'll have to think about this too.


Feats
- Allow associated Prestige classes access to class-specific feats. For example, if player chooses Jedi Sentinel --> Jedi Weapon Master, player should be able to choose Force Jump feats. These would not be automatically granted however.

I'm totally against this. It kills the purpose of choosing Jedi Guardian for example instead of Sentinel if you want to become a Jedi Weapon Master later on.
I know there will be slight advantages in terms of VP and FP, but we want the classes to be sufficiently different.



Force Powers
- Restrict certain ‘iconic’ force powers to either Light Side or Dark Side. In this case, Force Heal could only be used by a LS Jedi, while Force Lightning could only be used by a DS Sith. Neutral players would not be able to use either.

Absolutely not. Penalties are the way to go here. However, better penalties should be implemented. I ridiculous +75% FP cost to a 100% Light Side Jedi Master using DS Force Powers is ridiculous. Something along 200% would be a lot better.


- Restrict the final tier of force powers, eg Master Force Speed, Master Force Valour etc to Prestige classes only. This would show a much greater difference between Masters and Knights/Padawans.

I don't think it's necessary for Force Powers. However, allow Masters to have better feats and maybe Force Powers based on their class.

Lightsabre crystals
- Give colour crystals small bonuses that reflect the Jedi/Sith that would be using them. These would be

Blue, Cyan = +1 Dexterity
Yellow, Orange = +1 Intelligence
Green, Veridian = +1 Wisdom
Red, Purple = +1 Strength
Silver, Bronze etc = +1 Charisma


No way. Though it wouldn't change much, I'd rather leave bonuses to bonus crystals.

Loadout
- Party Members should have to load up on weapons/items before leaving the Hawk or whatever base you are using at the time, and then have no access to any other weapon you have picked up previously once you leave your base, much like the system used in Jedi Academy. However, if you picked up items while travelling, they would all be accessible to your party members.

This is actually a very bad idea for an SP RPG like KotOR. Having to go back and forth between the Hawk and X place will become a major annoyance since you actually have 3 inventory to take care of. This is something that's fitting for the MMORPG, but not for KotOR.

- Add more weapon-carriage places for party members, such as Pistol Holsters (thighs) and a backstrap for Blades, Rifles etc.

There wouldn't be much point in this if you don't have a restricted inventory.


- Allow party members to carry 'holdout blaster's' on their arms, where Energy Shields are carried, much like Mira's rocket launcher. At present, 'Holdout' blasters are useless because they are simply not powerful enough, especially considering there are many much more powerful pistols out there.

Exactly, hold-out blasters are pretty useless, as they should be. Since there's no ammo consumption or anything, such kind of back-up weapons are not very useful, unless you want to surprise someone who cheats at Pazaak.

NPC reaction to player’s clothes
- NPC’s should react to what the player is wearing, which currently does not happen. For example, an NPC will react exactly the same to you regardless of whether you are wearing Dark Jedi robes with a Red double-bladed lightsabre, or wearing Jedi robes with a Blue or Green lightsabre. This would be similar to how NPC’s react to you on Taris in KotOR if you are wearing the Sith Uniform or not.

I have to agree with you here. There should be a decent reaction, but it shouldn't be nothing more then simple reaction. Your clothing shouldn't determine whether or not you can get certain sidequests.



Random Item placement
- All unique items, such as Onasi Blaster, Jolee’s Robes etc should be non-random.

God yes.

- Shopkeepers and items should be divided into levels. For example, a level 1 shopkeeper would stock very basic items, but they would be completely random basic items. To the same extent, a high level shopkeeper would stock only the best items, but would have randomised selections of the best items.

I don't think shopkeepers should have an independant level, but rather the shopkeepers have their inventory evolve with your level.
What I want to avoid is areas where shopkeepers are having very good and expensive items and another where the shopkeepers have bad ones. Considering we can travel to any planet first, it would be best not to force people into a certain path just so they don't have to journey to some planet for items that are not too expensive for them.
Of course, you could say let's have many shopkeepers of different levels, but then it just becomes weird that there's many person selling the same things in the same area. True in real life, but weird in RPG.

This excludes special vendors like Suvam on Yavin.


- All other loot etc should be random, but in keeping with where the loot is coming from. For example, Dark Jedi wielding Red lightsabre’s shouldn’t drop Jedi robes and Blue/Green sabres.

God yes.


Swoop racing
- Enable player to purchase or choose a swoop bike at the start of the game. Bikes could come in combinations of average acceleration/average top speed, poor acceleration/good top speed, good acceleration/poor top speed etc.

- Allow Swoop bike upgrades to be purchased.

- Enable swoop bike ‘tuning’ to fit them better to each track.

This isn't SW: Swoop Racers of the Old Republic. Swoop racing is fun, but it should be nothing more then a mini-game. Giving it too much importance is not such a good idea. I'm not against choosing a certain swoop bike which wouldn't be too bad, but upgrades and tuning might be too much.


Weapons
- Add Sniper rifles. These would have a very long range and high power, but ineffective at short range and a long time between shots. Effectively, they would be at one extreme, with blaster Rifles in the middle, and Repeating blasters at the other end. This would also lend different attack feats to different weapons. Power Blast would be very useful for Sniper rifles while Rapid Shot would suit Repeating blasters more by accentuating their strengths.

I'm not sure how Sniper Rifles will work out in a turn base RPG. Remember that this isn't an FPS, where Snipers can shine and seem natural.
I just don't think it would look and feel natural.

- Add Assault Rifles. Especially rifles similar to modern weapons such as the M-16/M-203 combination. This would allow NPC’s to launch grenades and darts from their weapons much like Mira’s rocket launcher in KotOR2 instead of having to throw them.

I'm totally against this. It makes no sense in the Star Wars universe. We've never seen something like this and frankly it would look weird on one of those KotOR blasters. Mira's rocket and dart launcher was a special ability and I think we should keep it a special ability.

- Re-introduce Heavy Weapons feats for Repeating blasters and Sniper blasters.

I agree about Heavy Weapons feat for Repeaters, but if Sniper is in, it should be something different.
Think about it. Machinegunners have different skills then Snipers.
I'd like to add that Repeating blasters should actually have repeating properties and feel like real machine guns. Right now, they're no different then regular blaster rifles.

Workbench
- Allow player to build all basic weapon types eg. Vibro-blades, blaster pistols, blaster rifles, Lightsabre’s etc.

- To be able to build basic weapons, player should have to break down one example first with no components received in order to learn how to build that type of weapon.

Again, this is something that works well for an MMORPG where such attention to particular trade skills are important, but in SP, it becomes more tedious then anything else.

Darth Windu
01-01-2006, 07:38 AM
Rok - as much as I enjoy it, Jedi Power Battles is not canon. This is because it gives the option of different characters doing the exact same thing. For example, you can have Mace Windu rescue the Queen, fight Darth Maul etc when clearly thats not how it happened.

Luke
I think smarter AI would solve the problem. Since not every attack is fit for every situation, it's not always a good idea to make the NPC stick with a default one except the multi-purpose normal attack. Critical Strike for example, has a defense penalty and it wouldn't be suited for fighting a group of enemy, yet, the NPC might be forced to use that attack.
Either, I simply think an AI boost is all we need.
True, but then its a question of whether they can give NPC's a smart enough AI.

Wouldn't be too bad an idea, but I don't think there should be a choice between Jedi and a non-Jedi class. Why? 95% of the people will choose the Jedi one.
Maybe so, but non-Jedi are useful as well. In KotOR, I often found that Carth with twin blasters and some good heavy armour was more useful to me than Juhani, Bastila or Jolee.

I agree with this. Maybe not Force Master, but something more classy and less direct to the point. I'll have to think about this too.
Yeah, I don't really care what they change the name to, just as long as it's not Jedi Master. I mean really, are we supposed to believe that every single Jedi who has ever been on the Jedi Council is a force-based prestige class? I think not. It doesn't even make the most basic of sense, because if this was the case, the training of younger Jedi would be severely restricted.

I'm totally against this. It kills the purpose of choosing Jedi Guardian for example instead of Sentinel if you want to become a Jedi Weapon Master later on.
I know there will be slight advantages in terms of VP and FP, but we want the classes to be sufficiently different.
Not true. As I said, you wouldn't be automatically getting them, but they would become available to you. Just doesn't make much sense to me that a class that is supposed to specialise in melee combat doesn't have the ability to Force Jump.

Absolutely not. Penalties are the way to go here. However, better penalties should be implemented. I ridiculous +75% FP cost to a 100% Light Side Jedi Master using DS Force Powers is ridiculous. Something along 200% would be a lot better.
True, that would be better than the current system. I'd still like to see LS/DS bans for these two powers though.

I don't think it's necessary for Force Powers. However, allow Masters to have better feats and maybe Force Powers based on their class.
The idea here is that Master's are more powerful than Knights and Padawan's. After all, at the moment a Master can have the exact same powers as a Knight, which strikes me as a bit odd.

This is actually a very bad idea for an SP RPG like KotOR. Having to go back and forth between the Hawk and X place will become a major annoyance since you actually have 3 inventory to take care of. This is something that's fitting for the MMORPG, but not for KotOR.
Well, you wouldn't have to go back and forth if you equipped your party properly :). This is mainly to add some realism to the game. After all, for example, I am playing KotOR2 Onderon Mk.2. At the end of the Tomb group's mission, I unequipped them, and then used that same equipment on my Iziz group. Huh? It just doesn't make sense.

Exactly, hold-out blasters are pretty useless, as they should be. Since there's no ammo consumption or anything, such kind of back-up weapons are not very useful, unless you want to surprise someone who cheats at Pazaak.
But then every item should have a use. This is mainly for my idea of having to equip before you leave the Hawk rather than being a walking armory. This way you would be able to have, say, two lightsabres, an ion rifle and two holdout blasters in case you needed them.

I have to agree with you here. There should be a decent reaction, but it shouldn't be nothing more then simple reaction. Your clothing shouldn't determine whether or not you can get certain sidequests.
Absolutely. I'm not saying that clothing as opposed to LS/DS should determine what side-quests you get. All it would be is NPC reactions to you.

I don't think shopkeepers should have an independant level, but rather the shopkeepers have their inventory evolve with your level.
What I want to avoid is areas where shopkeepers are having very good and expensive items and another where the shopkeepers have bad ones. Considering we can travel to any planet first, it would be best not to force people into a certain path just so they don't have to journey to some planet for items that are not too expensive for them.
Of course, you could say let's have many shopkeepers of different levels, but then it just becomes weird that there's many person selling the same things in the same area. True in real life, but weird in RPG.
Good idea, similar to KotOR2 where you can upgrade the Rodian's shop on Nar Shadaar. Maybe when you get to a certain level, shopkeepers say 'hey, you look like you could use some advanced weapons...'

This isn't SW: Swoop Racers of the Old Republic. Swoop racing is fun, but it should be nothing more then a mini-game. Giving it too much importance is not such a good idea. I'm not against choosing a certain swoop bike which wouldn't be too bad, but upgrades and tuning might be too much.
I'm not proposing that Swoop Racing be a huge part of the game, but I would like to see it expanded. At least Swoop Racing, as opposed to Pazaak, requires skill instead of luck. Besides, if you didn't want to upgrade your swoop etc you wouldn't have to.

I'm not sure how Sniper Rifles will work out in a turn base RPG. Remember that this isn't an FPS, where Snipers can shine and seem natural.
I just don't think it would look and feel natural.
Basically they would act like Rifles, except with a longer range, more power and a longer reload time. Plus, they would suffer significant penalties when firing at close range.

I agree about Heavy Weapons feat for Repeaters, but if Sniper is in, it should be something different.
Think about it. Machinegunners have different skills then Snipers.
I'd like to add that Repeating blasters should actually have repeating properties and feel like real machine guns. Right now, they're no different then regular blaster rifles.
Well the problem with different feat lines for Repeating Blasters and Sniper Blasters is that it all becomes too complex and feat-consuming. This way you still have the option of using Repeating Blasters and Sniper Blasters if you have a specialised party member.

Again, this is something that works well for an MMORPG where such attention to particular trade skills are important, but in SP, it becomes more tedious then anything else.
I really don't see how. After all, in KotOR2 you can already build basic Vibro-blades etc, this would just be expanding it. As for breaking an item down to gain the ability to build more of them, its rather realistic - after all, thats how reverse-engineering works. In addition to this, you would be able to buy weapons/item plans from vendors, saving you the trouble of breaking down an existing item.

lukeiamyourdad
01-01-2006, 02:39 PM
True, but then its a question of whether they can give NPC's a smart enough AI.

I'd rather live with the idea that they can improve the AI :)

Maybe so, but non-Jedi are useful as well. In KotOR, I often found that Carth with twin blasters and some good heavy armour was more useful to me than Juhani, Bastila or Jolee.

I don't doubt that some more hardcore players would find it better to change some of their NPC to non-Jedi prestige classes, but it's a question of whether or not make the option useful enough for a good amount of people to use it.
Remember the dual pistol and saber wielding debate? It was even agreed by the pro party that it should be nerfed to the ground making it only a aesthetic choice for some people.
If not enough people use the option, then there's a failing.


Not true. As I said, you wouldn't be automatically getting them, but they would become available to you. Just doesn't make much sense to me that a class that is supposed to specialise in melee combat doesn't have the ability to Force Jump.

Well, that's the thing. You're not a melee combat specialist. Well, not a full one. That's what class mixmatching is all about: making a certain hybrid, not bad at this but not bad at that either.
This is something natural in RPGs. When you match different classes, you try to create a hybrid, bringing the abilities of say the Sentinel and the ones of the WeaponMaster classes together.




The idea here is that Master's are more powerful than Knights and Padawan's. After all, at the moment a Master can have the exact same powers as a Knight, which strikes me as a bit odd.

Well, more or less odd since something like Force Telekinesis wouldn't change much between a Master and a Padawan. Anyway, it would be a lot better if Masters only got special powers and feats.


Well, you wouldn't have to go back and forth if you equipped your party properly :). This is mainly to add some realism to the game. After all, for example, I am playing KotOR2 Onderon Mk.2. At the end of the Tomb group's mission, I unequipped them, and then used that same equipment on my Iziz group. Huh? It just doesn't make sense.

Actually, you've just proven why it's not a good idea. You're actually managing a total of 6 inventories in that situation. It becomes more tedious then anything. Even on your first playthrough, you might not even know what's waiting for you and you might pack the wrong equipment.
It might be more realistic, but it certainly is more tedious then anything else.



I'm not proposing that Swoop Racing be a huge part of the game, but I would like to see it expanded. At least Swoop Racing, as opposed to Pazaak, requires skill instead of luck. Besides, if you didn't want to upgrade your swoop etc you wouldn't have to.

Yes, but tuning and upgrading involves getting better performances which in turn might make it a little too much.



Basically they would act like Rifles, except with a longer range, more power and a longer reload time. Plus, they would suffer significant penalties when firing at close range.

Yeah, but in KotOR, you actually have to enter combat mode before firing a shot so range is more or less unimportant thus why I'm not too sure about this.



Well the problem with different feat lines for Repeating Blasters and Sniper Blasters is that it all becomes too complex and feat-consuming. This way you still have the option of using Repeating Blasters and Sniper Blasters if you have a specialised party member.

Yes and no. Maybe like right now, still allow basic feats like pistols and blaster rifles but make two "specialist" feats being Sniping weapons and Repeating weapons. That way, it would make sense and not restrict people too much.

I really don't see how. After all, in KotOR2 you can already build basic Vibro-blades etc, this would just be expanding it. As for breaking an item down to gain the ability to build more of them, its rather realistic - after all, thats how reverse-engineering works. In addition to this, you would be able to buy weapons/item plans from vendors, saving you the trouble of breaking down an existing item.

Like I said, it's actually more tedious then what you make it sound like.
In an MMORPG, you actually have to get a recipe for an item you want to make, gather the ingredients and then build it. It is natural for an MMORPG as it can focus on these elements.
SP RPGs tend to be different, and such kind of recipe looking becomes more tedious and might even bog down the story over keeping a decent pace.

Darth Windu
01-02-2006, 12:17 AM
I'd rather live with the idea that they can improve the AI :)
Me too, but in the meantime this idea would be useful. Besides, all of the combat feats aside from Critical Strike are way more useful than 'attack' so it would still easily work, especially if you use something like Master Flurry which gives you an extra attack with no penalties.

I don't doubt that some more hardcore players would find it better to change some of their NPC to non-Jedi prestige classes, but it's a question of whether or not make the option useful enough for a good amount of people to use it.
Remember the dual pistol and saber wielding debate? It was even agreed by the pro party that it should be nerfed to the ground making it only a aesthetic choice for some people.
If not enough people use the option, then there's a failing.
Perhaps, but then you're assuming there will be a choice between Jedi and non-Jedi. What about Mandalore for example? He can't be a Jedi, so you could turn him into a non-Jedi prestige class.
As for the duel-wielding debate, I'm a relative newbie here so I've never heard of it.

:eyeraise: Yes you have, you even posted in that thread! (http://64.20.36.211/showthread.php?t=156117) ;) -RH
Well, that's the thing. You're not a melee combat specialist. Well, not a full one. That's what class mixmatching is all about: making a certain hybrid, not bad at this but not bad at that either.
This is something natural in RPGs. When you match different classes, you try to create a hybrid, bringing the abilities of say the Sentinel and the ones of the WeaponMaster classes together.
You're a Weapons Master but not a melle specialist? As said, you'd gain the ability to learn but not gain automatically like the Guardian.

Actually, you've just proven why it's not a good idea. You're actually managing a total of 6 inventories in that situation. It becomes more tedious then anything. Even on your first playthrough, you might not even know what's waiting for you and you might pack the wrong equipment.
It might be more realistic, but it certainly is more tedious then anything else.
It may be tedious, but the fact that I can do it at all is bizarre. It's like you teleporting these items from one place to another, which gets ever wierder when you consider you are teleporting them back in time as well, since the two missions happen simultaneously.

Yes, but tuning and upgrading involves getting better performances which in turn might make it a little too much.
It's like sabre upgrading in KotOR2. You don't have to do it to beat the game, but it helps.

Yeah, but in KotOR, you actually have to enter combat mode before firing a shot so range is more or less unimportant thus why I'm not too sure about this.
But then a lot of the time you get into combat range without being in weapons range. In addition you could just increase combat range.

Like I said, it's actually more tedious then what you make it sound like.
In an MMORPG, you actually have to get a recipe for an item you want to make, gather the ingredients and then build it. It is natural for an MMORPG as it can focus on these elements.
SP RPGs tend to be different, and such kind of recipe looking becomes more tedious and might even bog down the story over keeping a decent pace.
Not as complicated as you think. For example, you want to build single-bladed lightsabres. You go to your workbench and break one down, losing it forever. In exchange you get the plans to build single-bladed lightsabres. Then, you can go to the workbench at any time and, using the same 'compnents' system from KotOR2, you build as many as you want. See, easy. :)

Rok_stoned
01-02-2006, 12:32 AM
[Quote]Rok - as much as I enjoy it, Jedi Power Battles is not canon. This is because it gives the option of different characters doing the exact same thing. For example, you can have Mace Windu rescue the Queen, fight Darth Maul etc when clearly thats not how it happened/[Quote]

Doesn't change the fact that he can use lightning, I mean its not rewriting the history of the characters before episode I.

Darth Windu
01-02-2006, 12:43 AM
Doesn't change the fact that he can use lightning, I mean its not rewriting the history of the characters before episode I.
Actually yes it does change it. As I said, Jedi Power Battles is NOT canon - ie, nothing that happens in the game really happened in the SW universe. As that is the only time Plo Koon is seen or referred to using Lightning, it is irrelevant. End result is that no Jedi uses Force Lightning.

As for your second post, don't spam.

RobQel-Droma
01-02-2006, 01:23 AM
Hm i have to find out how to quote things ..

Here is how you do it: Type " what you are trying to quote ". Except, without the quotation marks, and the "quote" inside the brackets has to be capitalized.

Yes, that's true and i didnt like it in Kotor I , i wish those crystals werent color crystals

Well hey, for one: You don't have to use them, and for two: There are always mods. :) But it doesn't matter if you didn't like it, that was just the way it is, and it makes sense too- you are never, ever going to get a perfect combination of bonuses and look. Meaning that while you make like the look of say a Jedi Knight Robe, it isn't going to be able to be upgraded as much as regular armor is.

But still, even if you didn't like those crystals, this is still different. While the MotF and HotG limited you to cyan and orange, these crystals give bonuses to every color crystal, or at least a shade of it, so you get the full range.

Doesn't change the fact that he can use lightning, I mean its not rewriting the history of the characters before episode I.

Yes it does, actually. You never see Plo Koon use lightning in any movie, so why base it on number one, a game that has no connection with the game we are talking about, and two, something that doesn't even connect with the movies? I'm not saying that we need restrictions for force powers, I just don't agree with your argument.

This is mainly to add some realism to the game. After all, for example, I am playing KotOR2 Onderon Mk.2. At the end of the Tomb group's mission, I unequipped them, and then used that same equipment on my Iziz group. Huh? It just doesn't make sense.

But then again, many things don't make sense- kind of like living through someone throwing a plasma grenade at you, so you really can't base it on realism in a game. It is good the way it is, I don't really think they need to change it. As LIAYD said, it would be very tedious to go through the whole system taking certain items with one party and then getting others for a different party. Its bad enough trying to keep track of upgraded armor and robes, and who is using what. :)

lukeiamyourdad
01-02-2006, 02:56 AM
Me too, but in the meantime this idea would be useful. Besides, all of the combat feats aside from Critical Strike are way more useful than 'attack' so it would still easily work, especially if you use something like Master Flurry which gives you an extra attack with no penalties.

Well, according to the manual and various guides, Power Attack is used for low armor enemies with lots of VP and flurry for high armor enemies with low VP.
It's a bit stretched, but each and every one of the attacks serve different purposes.
Like I said, improved AI is all we need.
And there's no "in the meantime" because it would technically assume that the AI in K3 will suck and let's just be optimistic enough to assume that it will be actually good.

Perhaps, but then you're assuming there will be a choice between Jedi and non-Jedi. What about Mandalore for example? He can't be a Jedi, so you could turn him into a non-Jedi prestige class.

These would also provide an option in terms of training NPC party members. Do you want to train a Soldier as a Jedi Guardian, or as a Peacekeeper/Mercenary?

:dozey:

You're a Weapons Master but not a melle specialist? As said, you'd gain the ability to learn but not gain automatically like the Guardian.

Nope. That's what mix-matching RPG classes is all about. Core RPG convention. Unmovable or it debalances everything.

It may be tedious, but the fact that I can do it at all is bizarre. It's like you teleporting these items from one place to another, which gets ever wierder when you consider you are teleporting them back in time as well, since the two missions happen simultaneously.

Bizarre or not, making the gameplay as smooth as possible is preferable. What you're proposing is too many inventories. It is extremely tedious.


It's like sabre upgrading in KotOR2. You don't have to do it to beat the game, but it helps.

Yes, but sabre and combat are what? 90% of the non-dialogue game time? What about Swoop Racing? 1%? 2%? Doesn't justify the time investment especially since it's only a mini-game.



But then a lot of the time you get into combat range without being in weapons range. In addition you could just increase combat range.

Well, you walk maybe 4 steps before getting into blaster range so...increased combat ranged might not be good either. If the areas are not too big, you'll be in combat mode all the time without resting if the range is too large.


Not as complicated as you think. For example, you want to build single-bladed lightsabres. You go to your workbench and break one down, losing it forever. In exchange you get the plans to build single-bladed lightsabres. Then, you can go to the workbench at any time and, using the same 'compnents' system from KotOR2, you build as many as you want. See, easy. :)

I'm not saying it's complicated, I'm saying it's yet more tedious work for nothing. It's an idea that raises the question:"Why would I invest time into making objects when I could simply buy them or expect them to drop when looting corpses?"
So basically, you're just breaking it down to make the exact same weapon later, when you have enough parts.
Frankly, losing it forever is also pretty weird. I mean, what did you do with it? Carefully disassemble the thing or smashed it with a hammer?
Technically, you should be able to reassemble the thing.
Anyway, I think this is a really minor thing that you want to make bigger. In an MMORPG, yes, it's excellent, people spend time gathering things to make weapons but in SP, your goal should be to move forward in the story.

Det. Bart Lasiter
01-02-2006, 02:59 AM
I'd like to see the radial menu from NWN in KotOR III, it makes things more organized.

ChAiNz.2da
01-02-2006, 07:05 AM
I'd like to see the radial menu from NWN in KotOR III, it makes things more organized.Now that's a superb idea! :thumbsup: I luuurrrved the NWN radial menu... I'd like to see this option, or something similar to it's design incorporated as well..

Though, the only drawback is the players that have "grown up" along with the KotOR gameplay will be fiddling around with the controls unless they ever played any of NWN series... I'd love it, it's so much more user friendly, but unfortunately I don't think the devs would go in and re-code that part of game..

but if they did.. wow.. :emodanc:

Prime
01-02-2006, 01:00 PM
I'm playing NWN for the first time now. I have to say, apart from being a great game, there are some excellent interface ideas I'm surprised didn't make it into KOTOR.

Rok_stoned
01-02-2006, 02:04 PM
As for your second post, don't spam.

I wasn't spamming, for some reason my stuff wouldn't work when I tried to edit it and I reloaded my browser several times tried to edit several times so I tried a bunch of things to see I if Icould even post; it worked. But I deleted it.

And also Kyle katatarn uses lightning in JKII:Outcast.

P.S: sdfewijf;jsoadjfo;sajfo

Det. Bart Lasiter
01-02-2006, 10:43 PM
Though, the only drawback is the players that have "grown up" along with the KotOR gameplay will be fiddling around with the controls unless they ever played any of NWN series... I'd love it, it's so much more user friendly, but unfortunately I don't think the devs would go in and re-code that part of game..
They're going to have to do that anyway, it's going to be on a new engine(hopefully it's an Electron-derivitive, but it will definitely be a new engine). That sort of thing would be the least of their work load, especially if it's an enhanced Electron Engine and it already has the radial menu, and it probably will.

Darth Windu
01-02-2006, 11:20 PM
And also Kyle katatarn uses lightning in JKII:Outcast.
Perhaps, but then Kyle isnt technically a Jedi in JK2 now is he? Besides, those events take place over 3000 years later, so it's irrelevant.

Jmac - I disagree. While the NWN interface is good, I prefer the KotOR system.

Prime - I'm playing NWN for the first time too, and I like it. I was really suprised how extensive the character creation, skills, feats etc were especially considering was made before KotOR.

RobQel-Droma
01-03-2006, 01:54 AM
Perhaps, but then Kyle isnt technically a Jedi in JK2 now is he? Besides, those events take place over 3000 years later, so it's irrelevant.

I agree 100% percent, he technically wasn't a Jedi. In fact, if I remember, doesn't he say at a point that he isn't "a Jedi, just a guy with a lightsaber"?

And as JO isn't KotOR, and isn't ever remotely related, it really doesn't matter. While maybe he does use it, it really doesn't mean anything to this.

YertyL
01-03-2006, 06:13 AM
I agree 100% percent, he technically wasn't a Jedi. In fact, if I remember, doesn't he say at a point that he isn't "a Jedi, just a guy with a lightsaber"?

And as JO isn't KotOR, and isn't ever remotely related, it really doesn't matter. While maybe he does use it, it really doesn't mean anything to this.
Well, the JK series builds up a bit of its own philosophy concerning the Force. In JKA Kyle literally tells you: "Remember: Powers are not inherently good or evil - it's how you use them."
This is IMHO ... not quite true to say the least. Using the Force to choke or electrify someone is most often not necessary and thus an act of evil.
Also, in my imagination the use of a Force power is related to an emotional involvement, e.g. to tap into the Dark Side to use the Force destructively you must conjure a certain hatred and will to destroy.(see e.g. the emperor's face when he uses lightning - it is stated that the Sith call upon their darker emotions to fuel their abilities)
IMO one of the main differences between jedi and Sith is that the jedi do not believe the end justifies all means (believing that the use of an evil mean while sooner or later corrupt the user) while the Sith do.
In short: I agree with the above posters that the use of Dark Side powers should not only cost additionally, but should either give the user Dark Side points after a while (which would IMO be more "realistic", but less comfortable for some I guess) or at least be restricted to a certain degree of evilness(I'm at a loss for the correct term :p ), depending on the power.

ChAiNz.2da
01-03-2006, 07:08 AM
They're going to have to do that anyway, it's going to be on a new engine(hopefully it's an Electron-derivitive, but it will definitely be a new engine). That sort of thing would be the least of their work load, especially if it's an enhanced Electron Engine and it already has the radial menu, and it probably will.Then I'd have to say "I've got my fingers crossed" :D

If they incorporated a radial menu.. well then, ChAiNz would be one happy camper ;) hehehe...

MachineCult
01-03-2006, 08:10 AM
Perhaps, but then Kyle isnt technically a Jedi in JK2 now is he? Besides, those events take place over 3000 years later, so it's irrelevant.


Alright then, Kyle is a Jedi in Jedi Academy and he uses lightning in that.

marvidchano
01-03-2006, 09:02 AM
I like it all! I think its a great Idea ;)

RobQel-Droma
01-03-2006, 01:02 PM
Alright then, Kyle is a Jedi in Jedi Academy and he uses lightning in that.

But does he use it in the cutscenes? No, he doesn't. He only uses it in-game; because he has the force power, the AI naturally will use it sometimes when fighting. If you notice, the devs never have him use it in a cutscene (like I said), or anything where the characters are following a predetermined battle.

MachineCult
01-03-2006, 05:14 PM
He didn't fight in any cutscenes. The devs set the NPCs force powers individually, Luke only used light side powers, Kyle had light side powers and Lightning.

Clone L68362
01-03-2006, 07:16 PM
This thread is too long. I can't comment on everything I don't agree with! Oh well, let me just say a few things.

First off, powerful items are kinda tricky. If they weren't random you would ALWAYS get them, and always getting the same thing would get boring. If they make it so things are random, but the game is designed to only spawn one in the whole game, that would work better, this way you might end up with it or not. However, powerful items should have more restrictions. I'd also like more offensive Light Side powers. Also just improve the general quality of things. Graphics, fix glitches, make NPCs and characters react better to your actions (like others have said, when in TSL you go DS, Atton might go DS too if you have inf with him, yet he still talks like a good guy.)
More animations couldn't hurt, as I'm tired of seeing a character say he's gonna do something, have the screen go black, and then they go, "Ok I'm done!" Can we at least see what happened? I'm sure there's other things but I can't think of em now.

Darth InSidious
01-03-2006, 07:28 PM
If you're wondering 'I thought this thread was longer' then you are right. However, I decided to delete my original thread on the same topic because it turned into an argument on one point of the many I have put forward, which really should have been in another topic. That idea has been removed.

Well, having played both KotOR and KotOR2 many times, I thought I may as well post some ideas I have for gameplay improvements if there is a KotOR3. Anyway, here goes.


Attacks
- Player should be able to chose default attack for all NPC party members and self. For example, player could choose a party member to use Flurry as their default attack, which that character would use without any external input.

You can. It's called the "Tab" button.


Classes
- Non-Jedi Prestige classes should be introduced with LS and DS variants. These would be

Soldier --> Peacekeeper (LS) / Mercenary (DS)
Scout --> Commando (LS) / Bounty Hunter (DS)
Scoundrel --> Smuggler (LS) / Slaver (DS)

These classes would give access to various feats/abilities similar to those obtained in the Jedi Prestige classes. For example, the Peacekeeper/Mercenary would get the same extra two-weapon fighting and weapons proficiency feat options as the Jedi Weapon Master. These would also provide an option in terms of training NPC party members. Do you want to train a Soldier as a Jedi Guardian, or as a Peacekeeper/Mercenary?

Bad idea. Means overly-complex start-up, and it also means you can't decide to change course midway.

- Jedi Master should be renamed Jedi Force Master, while Sith Lord should be renamed. These titles are indicative of Rank, not ‘path’. For example, irrespective of what class you are, you will still be either a Jedi Master or Sith Lord.

Perhaps....But who ever heard of a Sith Lord who was bad at using the Force?


Feats
- Allow associated Prestige classes access to class-specific feats. For example, if player chooses Jedi Sentinel --> Jedi Weapon Master, player should be able to choose Force Jump feats. These would not be automatically granted however.

Why do that, though? Surely it would make more sense to go Sentinel==>Watchman? And in any case, you get the JWM's special feats, don't you.


Force Powers
- Restrict certain ‘iconic’ force powers to either Light Side or Dark Side. In this case, Force Heal could only be used by a LS Jedi, while Force Lightning could only be used by a DS Sith. Neutral players would not be able to use either.

- Restrict the final tier of force powers, eg Master Force Speed, Master Force Valour etc to Prestige classes only. This would show a much greater difference between Masters and Knights/Padawans.

1) Pretty much in the game, or did you not notice the Force Point modifiers?
2) Why? You're Lvl 15 already by the time you can get Master Speed/Valour anyhow. What would one more level make?


Lightsabre crystals
- Give colour crystals small bonuses that reflect the Jedi/Sith that would be using them. These would be

Blue, Cyan = +1 Dexterity
Yellow, Orange = +1 Intelligence
Green, Veridian = +1 Wisdom
Red, Purple = +1 Strength
Silver, Bronze etc = +1 Charisma

Sorry, but no. They power your lightsabre...isn't that enough?


Loadout
- Party Members should have to load up on weapons/items before leaving the Hawk or whatever base you are using at the time, and then have no access to any other weapon you have picked up previously once you leave your base, much like the system used in Jedi Academy. However, if you picked up items while travelling, they would all be accessible to your party members.

That would just be annoying.


- Add more weapon-carriage places for party members, such as Pistol Holsters (thighs) and a backstrap for Blades, Rifles etc.

- Allow party members to carry 'holdout blaster's' on their arms, where Energy Shields are carried, much like Mira's rocket launcher. At present, 'Holdout' blasters are useless because they are simply not powerful enough, especially considering there are many much more powerful pistols out there.

Yeah, it would be make a nice doohickey-addon, but at the end of the day, it's hardly vital...


NPC reaction to player’s clothes
- NPC’s should react to what the player is wearing, which currently does not happen. For example, an NPC will react exactly the same to you regardless of whether you are wearing Dark Jedi robes with a Red double-bladed lightsabre, or wearing Jedi robes with a Blue or Green lightsabre. This would be similar to how NPC’s react to you on Taris in KotOR if you are wearing the Sith Uniform or not.

See above. Anyway, that would take a lot of programming, extra dialogue, and more than one set of basic clothing - at the end of the day, is it worth it?


Random Item placement
- All unique items, such as Onasi Blaster, Jolee’s Robes etc should be non-random.

Play KotOR.


- Shopkeepers and items should be divided into levels. For example, a level 1 shopkeeper would stock very basic items, but they would be completely random basic items. To the same extent, a high level shopkeeper would stock only the best items, but would have randomised selections of the best items.

- All other loot etc should be random, but in keeping with where the loot is coming from. For example, Dark Jedi wielding Red lightsabre’s shouldn’t drop Jedi robes and Blue/Green sabres.

1) Erm, this pretty much is so anyway...
2) NO! I do NOT want to carry on finding droids with medpacs and sith soldiers carrying a lightsabre, a Ruusan crystal and the robes of an ancient Jedi mystic. It spoils the immersion completely.


Swoop racing
- Enable player to purchase or choose a swoop bike at the start of the game. Bikes could come in combinations of average acceleration/average top speed, poor acceleration/good top speed, good acceleration/poor top speed etc.

- Allow Swoop bike upgrades to be purchased.

- Enable swoop bike ‘tuning’ to fit them better to each track.

Would be nice, yes.


Weapons
- Add Sniper rifles. These would have a very long range and high power, but ineffective at short range and a long time between shots. Effectively, they would be at one extreme, with blaster Rifles in the middle, and Repeating blasters at the other end. This would also lend different attack feats to different weapons. Power Blast would be very useful for Sniper rifles while Rapid Shot would suit Repeating blasters more by accentuating their strengths.

- Add Assault Rifles. Especially rifles similar to modern weapons such as the M-16/M-203 combination. This would allow NPC’s to launch grenades and darts from their weapons much like Mira’s rocket launcher in KotOR2 instead of having to throw them.

- Re-introduce Heavy Weapons feats for Repeating blasters and Sniper blasters.

Modern rifles are useless compared to Star Wars rifles. Why would you want them?


Workbench
- Allow player to build all basic weapon types eg. Vibro-blades, blaster pistols, blaster rifles, Lightsabre’s etc.

- To be able to build basic weapons, player should have to break down one example first with no components received in order to learn how to build that type of weapon.


Thoughts?

1) I think you can pretty much do this already.
2) No, that's an extremely annoying and silly idea, particularly if you're going to have a loot randomiser.

Darth Windu
01-03-2006, 11:30 PM
You can. It's called the "Tab" button.
Not what I'm talking about. My idea here is to reduce micro-management of party members during battle.

Bad idea. Means overly-complex start-up, and it also means you can't decide to change course midway.
Huh? Did you read my idea properly? This system, for party members, would be exactly the same as the prestige class in TSL. As a certain point, you would be able to either turn them into a normal Jedi class or non-Jedi Prestige class, or in cases like Mandalore, just a non-Jedi prestige class. It would add nothing as start-up, and would give you the option to change your characters through the game, which you currently can't.

Perhaps....But who ever heard of a Sith Lord who was bad at using the Force?
Ever heard of a Jedi who was bad at the Force? Seriously, Darth Maul would be a Sith Marauder class, yet he's still a Sith Lord. It's like saying the available classes are 'Infantry, Driver, Pilot and Colonel'. Huh? It just doesn't make sense.

Why do that, though? Surely it would make more sense to go Sentinel==>Watchman? And in any case, you get the JWM's special feats, don't you.
That's relevant how? As for the Sentinal --> Weapon Master it gives you good skills and melee combat. As the weapon master is supposed to be unmatched at melee combat, you'd think they'd have the opportunity to learn Force Jump.

1) Pretty much in the game, or did you not notice the Force Point modifiers?
2) Why? You're Lvl 15 already by the time you can get Master Speed/Valour anyhow. What would one more level make?
1. No, it's not. I'm not talking about force point modifiers, I'm talking about stopping LS players using Lightning, and DS players using Heal
2. Then it doesn't matter if my idea is put in now does it?

That would just be annoying.
If by 'annoying' you mean 'realistic', I agree :)

See above. Anyway, that would take a lot of programming, extra dialogue, and more than one set of basic clothing - at the end of the day, is it worth it?
Yes.

Play KotOR.
:rolleyes: isn't an argument. It really annoys me when people come up with moronic comments like that. If you don't like the idea, argue against.

1) Erm, this pretty much is so anyway...
2) NO! I do NOT want to carry on finding droids with medpacs and sith soldiers carrying a lightsabre, a Ruusan crystal and the robes of an ancient Jedi mystic. It spoils the immersion completely.
1. No, it isn't, which is the problem.
2. Huh? Please, read my ideas properly before responding. I said that I would like random loot to be relevant to the source they are coming from. This would mean lightsabres only on Jedi/Sith, only droid stuff on droids etc.

Modern rifles are useless compared to Star Wars rifles. Why would you want them?
Huh? I don't want modern rifles, I want sniper rifles. HK tells us they exist, and really do you think they wouldn't be in the SW universe?

1) I think you can pretty much do this already.
2) No, that's an extremely annoying and silly idea, particularly if you're going to have a loot randomiser.
1. Not with lightsabres you can't
2. What does the loot randomiser have to do with it?

Darth InSidious
01-04-2006, 10:14 AM
Please don't just flatly contradict me and call me a moron.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth InSidious
You can. It's called the "Tab" button.


Not what I'm talking about. My idea here is to reduce micro-management of party members during battle.

Hardly necessary, unless you are chronically lazy, in which case lie in bed all day until you die of starvation - then you won't need to make effort again!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth InSidious
Bad idea. Means overly-complex start-up, and it also means you can't decide to change course midway.


Huh? Did you read my idea properly? This system, for party members, would be exactly the same as the prestige class in TSL. As a certain point, you would be able to either turn them into a normal Jedi class or non-Jedi Prestige class, or in cases like Mandalore, just a non-Jedi prestige class. It would add nothing as start-up, and would give you the option to change your characters through the game, which you currently can't.

I did read it, but it wasn't very clear. Anyway, it's a useless doohickey-addon.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth InSidious
Perhaps....But who ever heard of a Sith Lord who was bad at using the Force?


Ever heard of a Jedi who was bad at the Force? Seriously, Darth Maul would be a Sith Marauder class, yet he's still a Sith Lord. It's like saying the available classes are 'Infantry, Driver, Pilot and Colonel'. Huh? It just doesn't make sense.

That's got a lot more to do with the Rule of Two than with rank. Since there are only two Sith, both hold the title of Sith Lord. Or it might be that Qui-Gon simply guesses he's a Sith Lord (He's not named as such by himself or by Siddy, IIRC), since knowledge of the Sith is so scarce. It's open to speculation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth InSidious
Why do that, though? Surely it would make more sense to go Sentinel==>Watchman? And in any case, you get the JWM's special feats, don't you.


That's relevant how? As for the Sentinal --> Weapon Master it gives you good skills and melee combat. As the weapon master is supposed to be unmatched at melee combat, you'd think they'd have the opportunity to learn Force Jump.

Maybe so, but if the JWM is so awesome at combat he doesn't need to charge, does he?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth InSidious
1) Pretty much in the game, or did you not notice the Force Point modifiers?
2) Why? You're Lvl 15 already by the time you can get Master Speed/Valour anyhow. What would one more level make?


1. No, it's not. I'm not talking about force point modifiers, I'm talking about stopping LS players using Lightning, and DS players using Heal
2. Then it doesn't matter if my idea is put in now does it?

1) Then that's a completely crap idea. Never heard of "Electric Justice"? It also means being grey is impossible, and makes the game less fun.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth InSidious
That would just be annoying.


If by 'annoying' you mean 'realistic', I agree

No, I mean irritating. You can change that anyway in the inventory screen while aboard the Ebon Hawk - it's another lazy arse's doohickey-addon of no real use.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth InSidious
See above. Anyway, that would take a lot of programming, extra dialogue, and more than one set of basic clothing - at the end of the day, is it worth it?


Yes.

At the expense of a decent plot? No. If you want a game with all the doohickeys and no decent plot play JKA.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth InSidious
Play KotOR.


isn't an argument. It really annoys me when people come up with moronic comments like that. If you don't like the idea, argue against.

It was a suggestion, not an argument. If you can't tell the difference, don't post, and certainly don't accuse others of being morons.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth InSidious
1) Erm, this pretty much is so anyway...
2) NO! I do NOT want to carry on finding droids with medpacs and sith soldiers carrying a lightsabre, a Ruusan crystal and the robes of an ancient Jedi mystic. It spoils the immersion completely.


1. No, it isn't, which is the problem.
2. Huh? Please, read my ideas properly before responding. I said that I would like random loot to be relevant to the source they are coming from. This would mean lightsabres only on Jedi/Sith, only droid stuff on droids etc.

1) Yes it is. Can you buy heavy repeating blasters and uber-powerful upgrade crystals on Telos? Hmm....let me see...NO!
2) Don't patronise me. What you are talking about would mean individually inventorying every single placeable and character in the game - so it wouldn't be random loot anyway.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth InSidious
Modern rifles are useless compared to Star Wars rifles. Why would you want them?


Huh? I don't want modern rifles, I want sniper rifles. HK tells us they exist, and really do you think they wouldn't be in the SW universe?

I referred to your comment on assault rifles. Darts and grenades are supposed to be separate weapons - otherwise it would be way too easy to get a frag grenade launcher...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth InSidious
1) I think you can pretty much do this already.
2) No, that's an extremely annoying and silly idea, particularly if you're going to have a loot randomiser.


1. Not with lightsabres you can't
2. What does the loot randomiser have to do with it?

1) Then there's a mod which fixes this, and really you could do it yourself without breaking a sweat.
2) Because you mightn't get a vibroblade until your on the last planet, meaning you can't have vibroblades through the entire game.

RobQel-Droma
01-04-2006, 03:59 PM
I did read it, but it wasn't very clear. Anyway, it's a useless doohickey-addon.

And your basis for this is... Would you say that the prestiege classes Sith Lord, Jedi Watchmen, etc. are "useless doohickey-addons"? For those people like Hanharr and Mandalore in TSL, wouldn't you like it if they could go from Soldier and Scout to, say "Mercernary" and "Bounty Hunter"? I don't see this as useless, and I don't really see how it would really take anything away from the game. On the contrary, it would add.

That's got a lot more to do with the Rule of Two than with rank. Since there are only two Sith, both hold the title of Sith Lord.

But this isn't about rank, it is about class. Sith Lord is the name of a rank, but it is the name of a class, too. Sith Lord (the rank) doesn't have anything to do with force ability, although Sith Lord (the class) does. As Darth Windu said, Darth Maul was probably one of those not good in force ability. :)

At the expense of a decent plot? No. If you want a game with all the doohickeys and no decent plot play JKA.

While I don't really see the total use of this idea, I suppose their should be some clothes that are partly important storywise, like the Sith Armor and the Sand People clothing. But it doesn't necessarily have to take away from the plot; Personally I would think that they would give OE or whoever is making it a bit more time to do this "useless doohickey-addons" thought up by "lazy arses." :xp:

It was a suggestion, not an argument

Just a little thing- why in the world did you post that "Play KotOR" when we are talking about improvements in KotOR III? No offense, of course, but it was kind of stupid comment that had nothing to do with what we were talking about.

Modern rifles are useless compared to Star Wars rifles. Why would you want them?

An Assault Rifle is just a type of weapon, it has nothing to do with slugthrower ammo. You can have futuristic Assault Rifles shooting blaster bolts.

ChAiNz.2da
01-04-2006, 04:14 PM
It really annoys me when people come up with moronic comments like that. (ChAiNz.. Darth Windu posted this one!) -RH
No offense, of course, but it was kind of stupid comment
RobQel-Droma,

Please refrain from "flame-type" namecalling.

The "no offense" line doesn't really do the trick in this instance... it is an offense and there are other words out there that can be used.

Flaming, namecalling, etc. are against Forum Policy... I understand, and hope you weren't trying to intentionally insult Darth InSidious, just please try to be more careful next time... I'm not involved in the discussion, but even I found the comments to be offensive.

You 2 have a really good debate going on and I'd hate to have to end it prematurely. Carry on gents, and keep it civil ;)

Darth InSidious
01-04-2006, 07:02 PM
And your basis for this is... Would you say that the prestiege classes Sith Lord, Jedi Watchmen, etc. are "useless doohickey-addons"? For those people like Hanharr and Mandalore in TSL, wouldn't you like it if they could go from Soldier and Scout to, say "Mercernary" and "Bounty Hunter"? I don't see this as useless, and I don't really see how it would really take anything away from the game. On the contrary, it would add.

Only if it's not done at the expense of storyline.


But this isn't about rank, it is about class. Sith Lord is the name of a rank, but it is the name of a class, too. Sith Lord (the rank) doesn't have anything to do with force ability, although Sith Lord (the class) does. As Darth Windu said, Darth Maul was probably one of those not good in force ability. :)

Um....that's pretty much what I said: Both Sith are called Sith Lord as a rank, regardless of class ;)


While I don't really see the total use of this idea, I suppose their should be some clothes that are partly important storywise, like the Sith Armor and the Sand People clothing. But it doesn't necessarily have to take away from the plot; Personally I would think that they would give OE or whoever is making it a bit more time to do this "useless doohickey-addons" thought up by "lazy arses." :xp:

Please don't misquote me. It just makes you look stupid ;)
Sure, some plot important clothing, fine. But every time you wear something different, having an NPC react? Not worth the effort, IMO.


Just a little thing- why in the world did you post that "Play KotOR" when we are talking about improvements in KotOR III? No offense, of course, but it was kind of stupid comment that had nothing to do with what we were talking about.

I was making the observation that, if Darth Windu wants to play a game where special items are not randomised, he might like to play KotOR. Furthermore, KotOR has everything to do with KotOR III – without it, III couldn’t even be a glint in the programmer’s eye.


An Assault Rifle is just a type of weapon, it has nothing to do with slugthrower ammo. You can have futuristic Assault Rifles shooting blaster bolts.
Sure, but the way Darth Windu posted, it sounded to me more to me like he wanted some slugthrowers.

Darth Windu
01-05-2006, 12:13 AM
Please don't just flatly contradict me and call me a moron.
I wouldn't contradict you if you didn't post contradictory things :)

Hardly necessary, unless you are chronically lazy, in which case lie in bed all day until you die of starvation - then you won't need to make effort again!
This is about micro-management during battle, thats all. Also, I do not appreciate comments such as the 'chronically lazy' one. Do not post it again.

I did read it, but it wasn't very clear. Anyway, it's a useless doohickey-addon.
Then you should have asked for clarification before passing judgement.

That's got a lot more to do with the Rule of Two than with rank. Since there are only two Sith, both hold the title of Sith Lord. Or it might be that Qui-Gon simply guesses he's a Sith Lord (He's not named as such by himself or by Siddy, IIRC), since knowledge of the Sith is so scarce. It's open to speculation.
No, it doesn't. Darth Maul, Darth Tyrannus, Darth Vader and Darth Sidious are all Suth Lords. However, Darth Maul and Darth Vader aren't particually strong in using the Force, while Darth Sidious is extremely strong with the Force.

1) Then that's a completely crap idea. Never heard of "Electric Justice"? It also means being grey is impossible, and makes the game less fun.
Nope, never heard of 'electric justice'. It also does not make being Grey impossible. As for less fun, I think the added realism would make it more fun, so what's your point?

No, I mean irritating. You can change that anyway in the inventory screen while aboard the Ebon Hawk - it's another lazy arse's doohickey-addon of no real use.
So hang on, having to determine the inventory of each party member before you leave the Hawk as opposed to not having to would make you lazy? How on Earth did you come to that conclusion?

At the expense of a decent plot? No. If you want a game with all the doohickeys and no decent plot play JKA.
And how, exactly, would this come at the expense of a decent plot? The two have very little to do with each other. Again, cut it out with the 'go and play...' comment.

It was a suggestion, not an argument. If you can't tell the difference, don't post, and certainly don't accuse others of being morons.
I didn't accuse you of anything.

1) Yes it is. Can you buy heavy repeating blasters and uber-powerful upgrade crystals on Telos? Hmm....let me see...NO!
2) Don't patronise me. What you are talking about would mean individually inventorying every single placeable and character in the game - so it wouldn't be random loot anyway.
1. Again, not what I'm talking about. Telos is different because you must visit that plent second, but the others you can do in any order.
2. No, it wouldn't. There would be 'classes' of random loot, such as 'droid', 'jedi', 'soldier' etc, so the loot would be relevant to the victim, but you wouldn't have to code for every individual.

I referred to your comment on assault rifles. Darts and grenades are supposed to be separate weapons - otherwise it would be way too easy to get a frag grenade launcher...
Sure, but the way Darth Windu posted, it sounded to me more to me like he wanted some slugthrowers.
Then you should have specified that. How did you come to the conclusion that by 'Assault Rifle' I mean projectile weapons?

1) Then there's a mod which fixes this, and really you could do it yourself without breaking a sweat.
2) Because you mightn't get a vibroblade until your on the last planet, meaning you can't have vibroblades through the entire game.
1. Not good enough. A game should be made properly, and shouldn't require mods to be complete. I probably could do it myself, assuming of course that KotOR3 was already out, which it isn't.
2. Oh good grief. Vibro-blades are the most common weapon along with Blaster Rifles in KotOR, so that argument just went out the nearest airlock.

RedHawke
01-05-2006, 01:50 AM
DarthInSidious, you see ChAiNz post? Right above yours?

It tells Rob to not resort to flame-type name calling?

The very next post you type...
It just makes you look stupid
When a Moderator adresses something you also need to heed the warnings, I know you were replying to Rob, but you needed to ignore that part and move on.

@ Darth Windu, this is where the "moron" comment came in from you...

It really annoys me when people come up with moronic comments like that.
This is where Darth InSidious is getting this from. This won't be tolerated either Darth Windu.

Keep it civil everybody... Last chance for this thread, any more flame like remarks and :lock:

ChAiNz.2da
01-05-2006, 06:08 AM
It really annoys me when people come up with moronic comments like that. (ChAiNz.. Darth Windu posted this one!) -RH
^^^
corrected (Thank you RedHawke) :)

My mistake, and my apologies to RobQel-Droma about the mis-quote.. :(

However, as RedHawke has stated, and this goes to you too Darth Windu & DarthInsidious and everyone else, ignore a warning again, and this discussion ends.. period.

YertyL
01-05-2006, 08:33 AM
No, it doesn't. Darth Maul, Darth Tyrannus, Darth Vader and Darth Sidious are all Suth Lords. However, Darth Maul and Darth Vader aren't particually strong in using the Force, while Darth Sidious is extremely strong with the Force.

!!! Darth Vader was extremly strong in the Force and so was Maul I would guess, although we do not see him use it much. IMO the way the movies show it the outcome of a lightsaber fight is primarily determined by the skill and strength in the Force and not by the physical possibilities of the opponents: We e.g. see Dooku being stronger than Obi-Wan (Ep.2 the saberlok in the end), which is physically pretty impossible. (as he was in his 80s while Obi was in his 30s)

Nope, never heard of 'electric justice'. It also does not make being Grey impossible. As for less fun, I think the added realism would make it more fun, so what's your point?

In this point I have to agree with you. The idea of "electric justice" is in my eyes just an excuse of bringing in another cool ability without having to think about consistency

Darth Windu
01-05-2006, 09:04 AM
RedHawke, Chainz - I said the comment was moronic, not the person making it - there's a difference. I'll freely admit that I've made some pretty stupid statements at times, but does that make me stupid? No.

Chainz - as for warnings, I didn't ignore them, nor do I appreciate the inuendo that I did.

RedHawke
01-05-2006, 09:42 AM
RedHawke, Chainz - I said the comment was moronic, not the person making it - there's a difference. I'll freely admit that I've made some pretty stupid statements at times, but does that make me stupid? No.
Darth Windu, you said it, and it was taken otherwise by the other person. That is what we have to go with.

Chainz - as for warnings, I didn't ignore them, nor do I appreciate the inuendo that I did.
There was no inuendo, you need to take a different tone when a moderator warns you, you are warned. I posted my first warning on Page 1, ChAiNz posted his initial warning a few posts up, yet the problem persisted. No matter if it was you who ignored the warning or not. ChAiNz post singled out no one and covered it's bases, that is what he is supposed to do, I don't care if you feel somehow insulted by it, it is a warning to everyone... period!

I then tried to give the thread a second chance out of respect to you, but I see now that I was wrong.

You do not argue with any of us publicly when we issue a warning.

If you have a problem with this decision feel free to PM any Mod/SMod/Admin about it and plead your case.

This thread has ended. :lock:

Edit: (Clairification for Darth Windu, and anyone else interested.)

Page 1, I posted this... clearly saying to not name call anyone.

*Puts on new moderator cap*

Lay off the name calling ("idiots" comments) in your posts folks... ;)

That was #1,

Page 2, ChAiNz posted his warning...

RobQel-Droma,

Please refrain from "flame-type" namecalling.

The "no offense" line doesn't really do the trick in this instance... it is an offense and there are other words out there that can be used.

Flaming, namecalling, etc. are against Forum Policy... I understand, and hope you weren't trying to intentionally insult Darth InSidious, just please try to be more careful next time... I'm not involved in the discussion, but even I found the comments to be offensive.

You 2 have a really good debate going on and I'd hate to have to end it prematurely. Carry on gents, and keep it civil ;)

This was chance #2... as the flame type name calling continued. (Thread on last legs here.)

Then our posts #75 and #76... chance #3, this put the thread beyond it's last legs.

Instead of taking offense at a harmless warning Darth Windu, you posted something regarding them that you should have just PM'd, had you simply continued the discussion and followed the warnings, this thread would have remained open... simple as that.

ChAiNz.2da
01-05-2006, 09:46 AM
Chainz - as for warnings, I didn't ignore them, nor do I appreciate the inuendo that I did.Sorry you're taking it personal, but my statement is regarded towards everyone as a general warning to not ignore warnings despite who they are initially given to.

However, as RedHawke has stated, and this goes to you too Darth Windu & DarthInsidious and everyone else, ignore a warning again, and this discussion ends.. period.

However, since you are part of the 3 that has been involved in this altercation, I felt the necessity of including you. People around here seem to think that if a warning isn't directly stated to them, then it's "ok" if 'they' do it...

We've had alot of people here recently disregarding multiple warnings, and have been dealt with. This will no longer be tolerated.

If you think I have misjudged, or you disagree with my decisions.. then you (and anyone else) are always free to contact (PM) myself, a Super-Mod or Admin to state your case.