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View Full Version : A strange idea perhaps, but it's an interesting one too...


Clone L68362
12-23-2005, 06:24 PM
Well, before I owned KOTOR, in fact I didn't even know it was an RPG, the reason I thought it was so successful was because of it's multiplayer. Imagine how surprised I was when I found out it only had single player. I have no complaints about this, but I recently wondered what a KOTOR multiplayer mode would be like. Maybe you can have fights with your characters from the game? Like certain rooms only take a certain level character. Maybe one mode has you and another player working together to complete a mission? What do you think?

Achilles
12-23-2005, 06:33 PM
Maybe one mode has you and another player working together to complete a mission? What do you think?They kinda hinted at gameplay like this (ala single-player rather than multi-player) in the tutorial (the part where you have to change control of the characters to gain access to the closed off section of the Ebon Hawk). While I don't necessarily care for multi-player games, I would like to see more mileage from the character control options in future iterations of KotOR.

Hallucination
12-23-2005, 09:09 PM
I don't like the idea of a co-op mode, because then there would be those guys who try to sabotage you. However, I had an idea for a duelling room a while ago, but I also thought of a high-score thing for swoop racing.

Darth333
12-24-2005, 02:20 AM
No multiplayer for me. For once we have a good single player game. I prefer to see them develop the history, the characters and the worlds instead of adding multiplayer. I definitely don't want two "half-games"... and the dialogue part would suck.

IndianaSolo
12-24-2005, 02:30 AM
No multiplayer for me. For once we have a good single player game. I prefer to see them develop the history, the characters and the worlds instead of adding multiplayer. I definitely don't want two "half-games"... and the dialogue part would suck.

What she said.

This suggestion sort of falls under the same category as FPS-action elements added in that I don't want to see it done to KOTOR.

RedHawke
12-24-2005, 03:01 AM
No multiplayer for me. For once we have a good single player game. I prefer to see them develop the history, the characters and the worlds instead of adding multiplayer. I definitely don't want two "half-games"... and the dialogue part would suck.
What she said.

This suggestion sort of falls under the same category as FPS-action elements added in that I don't want to see it done to KOTOR.
What they said! :D

Emperor Devon
12-24-2005, 04:06 AM
No multiplayer for me. For once we have a good single player game. I prefer to see them develop the history, the characters and the worlds instead of adding multiplayer. I definitely don't want two "half-games"... and the dialogue part would suck.

Quoted for emphasis! :)

Sabretooth
12-24-2005, 07:58 AM
sigh.... everybody's killing creativity today...

Anyways, I say a no to Multiplayer, atleast to the co-op mode or such modes they put to make good RPGs look ugly. A dueling room would be fine, though I don't think it'll be particularly enjoyable considering the current battle system and engine being customized for Singleplayer.

So... the final bet is Pazaak and Swoop Racing lobbies! We can have those lobbies you see in the games and take them online, so you make your score live. That'll be interesting and the only piece of worthy multiplayer from KotOR.

Vladimir-Vlada
12-24-2005, 09:19 AM
Well, before I owned KOTOR, in fact I didn't even know it was an RPG, the reason I thought it was so successful was because of it's multiplayer. Imagine how surprised I was when I found out it only had single player. I have no complaints about this, but I recently wondered what a KOTOR multiplayer mode would be like. Maybe you can have fights with your characters from the game? Like certain rooms only take a certain level character. Maybe one mode has you and another player working together to complete a mission? What do you think?
To do that you will need to throw away the entire effort Bioware and Obsidian put into KOTOR, because the story is too complex and the game isn't made for multiplayer. And, truthfully, I am sick of multiplayer games. Multiplayers get to play with smart enemies, while singleplayers get badly made and moronic A.I.'s.

This suggestion sort of falls under the same category as FPS-action elements added in that I don't want to see it done to KOTOR.
Will you people, please, knock it off with the 'This element is bad because it is a FPS element' attitude? Not everything belongs in the category FPS, this also falls into RTS, Sports, Turn-based Strategy and so on. And, also, FPS's aren't that bad you know.

I am not trying to be rude and so, but seriously, blaming FPS's for bad sugestions isn't exatcly guardian work.

Darth333
12-24-2005, 10:13 AM
We're not saying FPS are bad games, Vlad (but several FPS are bad games, just as you have bad RPGs). What's bad would be to introduce FPS elements in Kotor. We're saying that Kotor is a single player rpg based on the d20 system and that we want to keep it that way.

Accept that there will always be different opinions. There's no need to get upset about that as no one forces you to adhere to their opinions. Even if they provide arguments to try to convince you, you are still free to think whatever you want.

The purpose of the forums is to give opinions and discuss about what we would like to see or not to see in the game. If people want so say that they don't want FPS elements , I won't stop them (unless they start duplicating threads, start spamming, yada yada yada... ) just as I won't stop you from saying that you'd like FPS elements.

So please stop it with the "Will you people, please, knock it off" type of comment.

Now back on topic as I don't want this thread to derail.

HQ|Delta 07
12-24-2005, 11:09 AM
like Dath 333 said, I don't want Tow half-games. They should design avery good SP game. Let JK, RC and SWG do the MP stuff;)

The idea sounds interesting. A Co-op KotOR. Yeah but i think that that will be very difficlut to design. I mean you have several moments in the game where you can only use your PC. would this then be designed for two instead only for one? If not what does the other player do in that time. Probably he'll watch the other player and drinks a cup of coffee. maybe he eats a pizza, too:D I just think that MP is too complicated for KotOR

Ztalker
12-24-2005, 12:39 PM
Well...

Did anyone of you play Guildard or WoW?
It also uses and semi-turn based role play system. Rememberm, the rules of Kotor can also function in Multiplayer.
You cant lightning someone from kilometers away, and consulars have all kinds of neat litle tricks to protect them from incoming Guadrians.

I think it could work, mainly because it's already proven it can.

RobQel-Droma
12-24-2005, 01:59 PM
Well, it might work, but I would say no. The main focus is to make a good single-player game, so for me, I don't really care if I can go and play with other people. So no, I don't think so at all. Better to just keep it the way it is.

Hallucination
12-24-2005, 02:10 PM
So... the final bet is Pazaak and Swoop Racing lobbies! We can have those lobbies you see in the games and take them online, so you make your score live.
And if they can fix that nightmarish turret mini-game they could squeeze it in there.

Vladimir-Vlada
12-24-2005, 02:39 PM
We're not saying FPS are bad games, Vlad (but several FPS are bad games, just as you have bad RPGs). What's bad would be to introduce FPS elements in Kotor. We're saying that Kotor is a single player rpg based on the d20 system and that we want to keep it that way.

Accept that there will always be different opinions. There's no need to get upset about that as no one forces you to adhere to their opinions. Even if they provide arguments to try to convince you, you are still free to think whatever you want.

The purpose of the forums is to give opinions and discuss about what we would like to see or not to see in the game. If people want so say that they don't want FPS elements , I won't stop them (unless they start duplicating threads, start spamming, yada yada yada... ) just as I won't stop you from saying that you'd like FPS elements.

So please stop it with the "Will you people, please, knock it off" type of comment.

Now back on topic as I don't want this thread to derail.
I am sorry if I was a bit rude. I didn't mean that it looks that way. I wanted to merely point out that all the elements from different genres, that were sugested to be implanted into KOTOR, aren't only FPSs but are some from other genres as well. Look at my sugestion in the 'What do you want to see in KOTOR?" It's like I wanted to make the one and only giant, massive, unstable, tasty pizza. Meaning I sugested implanting strategy. And is that an FPS element?
I am just trying to say that sugested FPS elements aren't the only thing that could destroy KOTOR. And I am also trying to defend FPS from being everyones mocking object.
I guess I went a bit over the edge. Sorry about that.

I just think that MP is too complicated for KotOR
I think that this sentence says everything needed to say about this subject.

Darth333
12-24-2005, 03:40 PM
Well...

Did anyone of you play Guildard or WoW?
It also uses and semi-turn based role play system. Rememberm, the rules of Kotor can also function in Multiplayer.
You cant lightning someone from kilometers away, and consulars have all kinds of neat litle tricks to protect them from incoming Guadrians.

I think it could work, mainly because it's already proven it can.
That's a completely different game. If they were going to turn Kotor in a MMORPG, they they would loose me as well as many others. I would never buy the game. For once we have a good single player game why does everything has to turn in multiplayer...let's improve the single player experience instead.

Vladimir-Vlada
12-24-2005, 03:45 PM
let's improve the single player experience instead.
As far as I know, that's the only thing that can be improved in KOTOR (well besides the story anyway).

Clone L68362
12-24-2005, 07:41 PM
Yeah, I did think the idea is a bit far fetched for KOTOR, but it seemed like an interesting concept.

RobQel-Droma
12-24-2005, 09:30 PM
But more like for another game; Doesn't quite fit in KotOR.

As D333 said, do more work on the single-player rather than adding a multi-player.

Master_ Tyvokka
12-24-2005, 09:49 PM
Well perhaps you can have duels between the main character of Kotor to see who has built there character better. This would be online only though.

IndianaSolo
12-24-2005, 10:13 PM
Well perhaps you can have duels between the main character of Kotor to see who has built there character better. This would be online only though.

The problem with this is it's not as easy as just saying "well just add this feature for those who want to duel their characters online". I'm no developer, but I'd be willing to bet that would be a pain to code considering the rest of the game is geared towards single player.

In other words, it's not just as easy as typing a couple of lines of extra code to let players do the online duel thing. If they added it, it would come at the expense (both in development time and in quality) of features that are more important to a single player game.

RobQel-Droma
12-24-2005, 10:23 PM
Welcome to the Forums Master Tyvokka!

That would be cool, to maybe play online with your friends, each of you using his/her best KotOR character in a mission, but I don't know how difficult that would be. Besides, I'd rather they keep KotOR single-player.

Master_ Tyvokka
12-25-2005, 02:04 AM
well it sounded fun but yet i know it would be a pain to do but still cool.

Ztalker
12-25-2005, 06:01 AM
@ D333:
I wasn't talking about if it's mmorpg or not. I was talking about the semi-turn based controls that are Kotor-like, that do work online.
In WoW, you walk with wasd, en target with the mouse. Clicking once will attack your target. You can click skills on the skill-barr below. The only thing that's missing is the option to pause. (That can't be implented anyway ;) )
And if you'd like to now: SW already has it's major mmorpg **** up: Galaxies.

lukeiamyourdad
12-25-2005, 12:40 PM
KotOR is based on dialogues and story, even if you spend more time in combat, the base, its foundations are these non-MP elements.
MMORPGs relie on exploration and the making of a universe where you can do pretty much what you like.
MMORPGs are a lot of fun, but they're not what KotOR is all about.

That's why it can't really work online. It's not adapted for it, it's not meant for it and it shouldn't be for MP.



PS: Actually, adding MP to a game could technically be considered an FPS element, as every FPS these days has to have an MP mode, however basic or half-done it is.

Vladimir-Vlada
12-25-2005, 01:41 PM
PS: Actually, adding MP to a game could technically be considered an FPS element, as every FPS these days has to have an MP mode, however basic or half-done it is.
It concerns RTSs also these days.

lukeiamyourdad
12-26-2005, 02:09 AM
More or less, some RTS still have no MP mode. Off the top of my head, I can't name any, but I'm sure there is.

There's however, a big detail that needs to be taken into consideration: FPS are the most popular games these days. Most of the MP universe is dominated by the likes of Battlefield, Counter Strike, Unreal Tournament, Halo, etc.
Even during the glory days of the RTS, it never had the popularity of MP FPS (if you do not take Korea into account).

It becomes obvious when people talk about MP games and the first things that comes to their mind are Halo and Counter Strike.

There's no RTS designed for MP only also. Well, there is a few, but they turn out pretty bad. On the other hand, FPS designed for MP is a common sight and they turn out mostly good.

Vladimir-Vlada
12-26-2005, 07:16 AM
But never the less, Multiplayer is a thing that has been in existence since the beginning of all games. Be it RTS, FPS, Sports... They all began at, approximately, the same time. So in it's basis, Multiplayer is a general element, not just an FPS element.

Ztalker
12-26-2005, 07:33 AM
Indeed.

If i take a look at my games, many of them have multiplayer that aren't FPS:
-Need For Speed (any part)
-Lotr: battle For Middle Earth (RTS)
-Age of mythology (RTS)
-Neverwinter Nights ( Medieval kotor, YES multiplayer)
-Rome Total War (RTS)
-Dungeon Siege 2 (An RPG like kotor with again, Multiplayer)

So, many games have multiplayer, most jsut as extra. NvN and DS2 however, have a balaced, good Multiplayer.

lukeiamyourdad
12-26-2005, 05:35 PM
Are those MP modes nearly as popular as any MP FPS? No.

My point is that MP has become an integral element of FPS games, so much that whenever anything MP is mentionned, people think about CS, Halo, etc.

I'm not saying that MP has never been in other games (because that's frankly insulting my intelligence), I'm saying that MP has become the "flagship" of FPS games, as opposed to racing games or RTS (non-MMO mind you), who still see most of their game rely on SP, since any of those can remain succesful without an MP mode.

Vladimir-Vlada
12-26-2005, 06:02 PM
My point is that MP has become an integral element of FPS games, so much that whenever anything MP is mentionned, people think about CS, Halo, etc.
But still, it isn't in the basis. In the basis it is still a general element.

Jamps
12-26-2005, 06:49 PM
I wouldn't mind seeing a mulitplayer Co-op mode. If any of you have played 007: Everything or Nothing, there was a seperate Co-op mode which was a side story to the single player campaign. It was shorter, but still a lot of fun and didn't interfere with the single player experience.

Maybe having a co-op mode which has you and a friend playing as Jedi Knights on a mission for the Republic which has some ties to the single player game would work. Maybe you would have to follow the tracks of the single player character, showing what happened after the single player character left. That sure would have been interesting for Onderon. Of course it would have to be unlocked so it wouldn't spoil the story.

Maybe even some co-op missions with T3 and HK-47 would be interesting. But, making the game itself co-op wouldn't be right, it would probably upset many fans. Adding co-op missions or a co-op campaign along with the single player game would satisfy both sides without taking anything away from the experience.

IndianaSolo
12-26-2005, 07:55 PM
But still, it isn't in the basis. In the basis it is still a general element.

I...don't even know what that is supposed to mean.

Vladimir-Vlada
12-26-2005, 08:11 PM
I...don't even know what that is supposed to mean.
I am trying to say that multiplayer's roots come from the meaning of games themselves. Games were a thing made for fun, but it is generally intended to be, in fact, a social tool. Games were meant to be played with many other people, so multiplayer comes from all games in general. The conclussion is that Multiplayer is not just a FPS element.

Still, that takes us back on the subject. KOTOR is made for Singleplayer in a very complex way, and inserting Multiplayer in it is like making water the material that builds mattery.

Darth InSidious
12-26-2005, 10:26 PM
IF, and *only* IF everything else is completed or is ahead of schedule or can be done, then a duelling room/swoop/2player pazaak/chat would be nice, and maybe do what Dungeon Siege did and have the possibility of playing through again with the exact same storyline but 2 player? After all, you don't *have* to play it if you don't want to, and co-op works great over LAN :)

Edith: Ooh, and on a side, why are attempts to make KotOR/TSL multiplayer illegal/not allowed?

lukeiamyourdad
12-27-2005, 01:01 PM
The conclussion is that Multiplayer is not just a FPS element.


When did I say it was an FPS element only?
I said that it evolved to the point of being associated with the online FPS, whenever mentionned.

Vladimir-Vlada
12-27-2005, 03:36 PM
I said that it evolved to the point of being associated with the online FPS, whenever mentionned.
Now, let me put it this way:

Look at living beings. They are all very unique, some are even completely different from the rest. But they are all tied with one thing that makes them all, they are all tied with the thing from which it all began: Cells.
That's the same with multiplayer, it began in the roots of all games. So, from my point of view, associating only FPSs with multiplayer is like associating only Humans with life.

Clone L68362
12-28-2005, 01:12 AM
Jeez Vlad, could you drop it? Your taking this on and on even though luke has never really outright mentioned disagreeing with you.

Vladimir-Vlada
12-28-2005, 06:09 AM
All right, I apologise. I'll stop.

P.S. Why is my post edited? :confused: I don't remember anyone saying anything wrong.

I deleted part of LIAYD's post about "reading abilities" and the reply to it

Ztalker
12-28-2005, 08:56 AM
Well,

Liayd: Your arguments are better then most of the others, and i should know. I've been playing Unreal and Battlfield for ages, and you are right. it just adds an experience no other multiplayer game could give.

(Although i liked rushing down some orks using Rohan ins Lotr: Bfme)

JediMaster12
01-05-2006, 04:30 PM
No multiplayer for me. For once we have a good single player game. I prefer to see them develop the history, the characters and the worlds instead of adding multiplayer. I definitely don't want two "half-games"... and the dialogue part would suck.

Kudos to you Eleven out of ten! Absoloodle!

Jae Onasi
01-05-2006, 05:12 PM
Yep, keep it single-player. A 2-player pazaak game might be fun, but I'd prefer to have a good single player game. Going from 1 player in K1/2 to MP for K3 would be a bit disappointing--it just wouldn't play the same.
Vlad--it's possible to socialize in a single player game, but it's a different kind of interaction (and I understand your point on games being a social activity). My son and I play together--he makes the choices, I do the mechanics (since it's my laptop we play on) and the math puzzles that he's too young to do. We get to laugh at HK's comments and talk about the choices he's making and how it could affect his character. Hubby and I end up chatting about how we fought x Boss, or how we handled a particular sidequest, what planet was best, what lightsaber upgrades work best in a given situation, etc. Granted, we're not physically playing at the exact same time against or with each other, so it's not quite the same as in an MP game, but nevertheless we've made it work. So, while it's a SP game, we've gotten some good socializing going on in our family, and I'd argue that all of us posting on the forum are socializing quite a bit. When my family wants to all play the same game at the same time, we pull out the board games and play Life or Mousetrap or Monopoly or something like that. Kotor's just a nice alternative and a very fun SP RPG, and I'd like them to keep as much of the framework as possible for K3.

Cygnus Q'ol
01-06-2006, 01:09 PM
Someone please explain how the heck you could keep the story and dialogue intact in a mulit-player game.

...ridiculous.

The gaming experience, however unique and creative, would be too much of a derailment from the other two games.

I would oppose such blasphemy.

JediMaster12
01-09-2006, 06:25 PM
Yes I believe you would as well I