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RobQel-Droma
01-09-2006, 06:54 PM
While there is a thread about mini-games, I don't think I've seen one specifically about this. Basically, this is a thread for the thoughts on being able to fly/drive/float/however-it-gets-around some kind of vehicle or creature. Riding a Bantha across the Dune Sea instead of having to walk in K1, or actually flying that airspeeder yourself on Nar Shaddaa in TSL. Using those swoop bikes for more than just racing- saving some time in between places without using Force Speed.

Of course, this kind of goes along with my idea of having a lot bigger planets and terrains to explore and wander in, to really get the feeling of the place being an actual planet. These vehicles would cost money, of course, but they might be worth it in the long run.

And as for space battles: While I think we are going to get the Ebon Hawk sometime in the game, it might be a little bit. So, if you are a Jedi, or even still just a soldier or something, wouldn't you have a starfighter that you might have to fight in during a battle in the story? Any thoughts?

Darth Windu
01-09-2006, 10:33 PM
Well a starfighter is included in my upcoming 'KotOR3 Storyline Ideas'. :)

Jae Onasi
01-09-2006, 10:46 PM
A starfighter could be a lot of fun. Are you going to put T3 in there, too? That might be an interesting tie-in....

Darth Windu
01-09-2006, 10:54 PM
Jae - really? What a good idea ;)

It would make a rather good tie-in wouldn't it. I've also figured out how it would tie-in to the Ebon Hawk but I'll keep that quiet for now.

Carthaholic
01-09-2006, 10:54 PM
Yeah, riding a dewback or a tauntaun or piloting a landspeeder or a swoop bike would be neat I'd say. A starfighter is a good idea too.

CondorFalco
01-10-2006, 01:47 AM
I would love to be able to pilot a vehicle. With the starfighters, I would love to pilot one of the Jedi fighters in KOTOR 1.

JediMaster12
01-10-2006, 02:55 AM
A starfighter could be a lot of fun. Are you going to put T3 in there, too? That might be an interesting tie-in....

Yeah that's cool!

Venom750
01-10-2006, 06:59 AM
i like to see it but it might only happen in a one off mission because you'd need a transport vessal to carry the crew IE: the ebon hawk

Prime
01-10-2006, 10:11 AM
I don't want things to get to far from the RPG style...

Cygnus Q'ol
01-10-2006, 10:29 AM
If it's for the novelty or convienience of getting around, I'd say OK, sounds good. I'd like to pilot a starfighter on brief, dogfighting sides perhaps.

Using creatures or machines for transport in a larger world would be a nice touch. Perhaps you'd even have to aquire beast control or repair skills to be able to do this.

Yeah Rob, good stuff!

Darth InSidious
01-10-2006, 12:16 PM
I don't want things to get too far from the RPG style...
Quoted for emphasis, and corrected for...uh...the pedants :D

Besides, spare a thought for the poor reaction-impaired, won't you? One of the reasons for playing these games is that they're a break from the endless Hack-slash-and-pow-pow-pow-style JK series...JKA in particular.

Jeremia Skywalk
01-10-2006, 12:59 PM
And this would also make credits usefull. I mean in kotor1 i almost didn't find any use of them at all and about tsl im not sure, as when i left peragus i had enough credits for rest of the game. You find best equips as loot anyways., So buying venichles would be great. Maybe irs not too rpgish, but well... I think it doesn't make game unrpg, now does it?

JediMaster12
01-10-2006, 01:03 PM
I'm with you on that Jeremia Skywalk. By the end of TSL, I had enough creds to buy the most expensive thing. I think having a vehicle or beast transport is good.

Sabretooth
01-11-2006, 08:11 AM
I'm totally with vehicles, of all sorts. It can make a nice minigame, especially a spin-off from the Swoop game. Starfighters, speeders, swoops, tanks etc. would make nice examples. Besides, who doesn't want to be a part of a Basilisk Drop Team? :D

Darth InSidious
01-11-2006, 09:33 AM
Me. Now we're moving into FPS/TPS realms, and getting away from RPG.

Cygnus Q'ol
01-11-2006, 09:42 AM
Me. Now we're moving into FPS/TPS realms, and getting away from RPG.

How so?

Vaelastraz
01-11-2006, 09:52 AM
i partly agree with Darth Insidious

Did you guy actually like the.. hm i dont really know how explain that..
maybe how it feels when you control the swoop bike? for me this was just as i expected it to be in a RPG. If the game was Star Wars Swoop racers of the old republic i would be disappointed because the racing is actually just a mini game-as it is supposed to be.
And unless the devs will make the vehicle control as good as it is in Unreal Tournament 2004 (and this wont happen) i dont really want more driving/flying vehicles.

RobQel-Droma
01-11-2006, 11:05 AM
Well, there are already spots where the game turns into kind of an FPS: The turret, the swoop racing, that one on Peragus where you shoot all of those Sith troopers. That is why I didn't think it would be moving too far away. Besides, as for the ground vehicles and animals, it would be like walking- you would just go faster, and get there faster. It doesn't change the combat.

Prime
01-11-2006, 11:24 AM
Quoted for emphasis, and corrected for...uh...the pedants :DThanks for that. :)

Darth n00b
01-11-2006, 11:41 AM
Sure it would be fun to have a starfighter, but where should you put it?
Could you dock it to the Hawk?
Program it to follow the Hawk?
Have a NPC to ride it and follow the Hawk?

If it is well done, then it would be nice.
If not, GOD NO!

For the creatures dosn't I see the point.
I doub't any of the beat a jedi with Master Speed in a race anyway.

Darth InSidious
01-11-2006, 12:36 PM
I hate having to move in 3D. I absolutely hate it, because I suck at it (one reason I try to avoid modelling). It's incredibly difficult for me, and frankly the idea of piloting the Hawk just seems a bit...redundant.

The fighter...What would you do with it? Where would you keep it? What use is it? Those are questions To which the answers come back, methinks, as "Ermm...", "Ahh...," and "Uh, well...".

I player KotOR and TSL because I hate having to directly control. I'm bad at it, and besides which, I play with a touchpad. Which makes such ideas incredibly difficult. I've played with a touchpad for several years now, and a mouse would just feel wrong. So that's almost all the reasons I don't like the idea, aside from that it feels wrong :)

@Prime: Any time :D

I would also like to mark the occasion of 1,000 useless, silly, nonsensical and off-the-floor-wall-ceiling-and-several-light-years-from-the-box-thinking-type posts :D

Meatbag
01-11-2006, 01:30 PM
If we don't want to pilot a landie, how about cutscenes as we speed from one area to the other?
No starfighters... only in cutscenes, like the awesome G-Wing that belongs to Mandalore and his friends.
I think there should be one main planet that only it has swoop tracks on... many different enviromentally-controlled tracks, faking Coruscant, Taris and things. Many swoop garages, ie. quests and Plasteel Containers, plus maybe buy a swoop? Choose a colour, buy or quest upgrades, but not too much... maybe play Pazaak for parts? Just a few thoughts. Bet on races? Could also work...

lukeiamyourdad
01-11-2006, 01:48 PM
A lot of ideas seem to take the shape of KotOR 3: Galaxies.
Roaming in vehicles across vast planets, piloting Starfighters, buying upgrade for swoop bikes...

Definitaly not the good old KotOR.
Anyway, a Starfighter? How useful would that actually be? So you just fly it around for what, one mission? Maybe two? Whatever happens, it's way too low to justify getting used to the controls of a Starfighter.

Meatbag
01-11-2006, 02:58 PM
I concur, starfighters are uncalled for. We can stay at renting swoops. Plus, riding around on a bantha... would breed difficulties. For the Devs I'd say.
Making a actual starfighter system would be useless... the Hawk is far better. Let's stay at the NS airspeeder system too... more Bao-Dur influence chances? lol

Darth InSidious: I know the feeling, I hate games where I have to aim and stuff... that's why I like KoTOR... and the original SWG (which now, combat is just mousing over the target and holding the left button; there isn't much more to it).

And bigger terrains to explore without zoning... would be low FPS I'd say. I really like the zoning idea in KoTOR, really helps.

Also to the starfighter idea, a even small space battle zone around a planet is not something fun. Also a Dev pain would be coding the opponents and upping the FPS of the place. They do a great job with the standard stuff, let's leave flying things to the X-Wing games and such.

RobQel-Droma
01-11-2006, 10:39 PM
Anyway, a Starfighter? How useful would that actually be? So you just fly it around for what, one mission? Maybe two? Whatever happens, it's way too low to justify getting used to the controls of a Starfighter.

The starfighter was an optional idea- I just thought that perhaps if you didn't get the Ebon Hawk at the beginning of the game, you might start off flying a starfighter once or twice. Besides, you could always have an option to not have a starfighter battle- or perhaps the devs just leave it out completely. It was just an idea.

Sure it would be fun to have a starfighter, but where should you put it?

I concur, starfighters are uncalled for. We can stay at renting swoops. Plus, riding around on a bantha... would breed difficulties. For the Devs I'd say.
Making a actual starfighter system would be useless... the Hawk is far better.

The fighter...What would you do with it? Where would you keep it? What use is it? Those are questions To which the answers come back, methinks, as "Ermm...", "Ahh...," and "Uh, well...".

This wasn't really what I was talking about. See my above post: It was in the possiblity that you might be flying a different ship than the Hawk for around the first quarter of the game or so. When you got the Hawk, you would lose the fighter, it wasn't some add-on to the EH. But as I said also, I could live without it, I don't really care about that part of my idea.

A lot of ideas seem to take the shape of KotOR 3: Galaxies.
Roaming in vehicles across vast planets, piloting Starfighters, buying upgrade for swoop bikes...

And your point is?

For the creatures dosn't I see the point.
I doub't any of the beat a jedi with Master Speed in a race anyway.

The point is, you could go around as fast as Force Speed without using the force. If you aren't a Jedi at the beginning of the game, this would help with the time it takes to move around- it would benefit your party members too, if you are on a mission like the Freedon Nadd tomb and you can't do Force Speed.

Especially with areas like Tatooine in K1. Even if that is the biggest the areas get up to, it still was a major pain to try and get from one side to the other. That was why it might be nice to have a speeder or a beast. Besides, this wouldn't change the combat system; just give you a faster way to move around.

In fact, with all of this, you really aren't forced to use it. You could just run at force speed, if you want, it doesn't change the way the game works.

player KotOR and TSL because I hate having to directly control. I'm bad at it, and besides which, I play with a touchpad. Which makes such ideas incredibly difficult.

But that doesn't have anything to do with moving around on a speeder or riding on a beast. That would only be a problem for the possible starfighter, and that is probably the lowest on this list, leave it out for all I care. The rest does nothing more than what you already do- use four keys to control which direction you move. No difficulty there.

Prime
01-12-2006, 10:57 AM
And your point is?That is serves no real purpose to the story and belongs more in a Galaxies-like game and not a KOTOR game.

Plus Galaxies sucks and we want is little related to that as possible. :)

RobQel-Droma
01-12-2006, 11:08 AM
^Well, several other things could fit into "serves no real purpose to the story." It was just an option to make the game maybe more interesting or take away from the time spent just going through areas. :)

JediMasterDeath
01-12-2006, 11:10 AM
Whoa, whoa, whoa Guys, !RPG! Role-Playing Game. Role-Playing means to "act the part" If your a Jedi, you mostlikley fly a starfighter! So why not actually make it so you can? I for one would love to own a starfighter in KOTOR :D Get into a dog fight with one of my rivals while attempting to bord his ship would be awsome! Use the force to improve your guidance system ^.^ "Use the force luke.." lol > . <

lukeiamyourdad
01-12-2006, 02:04 PM
The starfighter was an optional idea- I just thought that perhaps if you didn't get the Ebon Hawk at the beginning of the game, you might start off flying a starfighter once or twice. Besides, you could always have an option to not have a starfighter battle- or perhaps the devs just leave it out completely. It was just an idea.

And far from being the best one. A starfighter mode requires a lot of time investment and people would expect it to be pretty good.
It's always the "it could only be an option" argument. It's not that most of us can't play a starfighter game, but it's actually because it's time consuming for the developpers who could focus time and money on everything important.

It seems "good" ideas are being thrown around without thinking and who knows? Maybe a developper or worse, an LA executive could see this and force some useless modes into the game.


And your point is?

That it brings back bad memories? That it focuses too much on unimportant elements?

Darth InSidious
01-12-2006, 04:55 PM
And far from being the best one. A starfighter mode requires a lot of time investment and people would expect it to be pretty good.
It's always the "it could only be an option" argument. It's not that most of us can't play a starfighter game, but it's actually because it's time consuming for the developpers who could focus time and money on everything important.

It seems "good" ideas are being thrown around without thinking and who knows? Maybe a developper or worse, an LA executive could see this and force some useless modes into the game.




That it brings back bad memories? That it focuses too much on unimportant elements?
Motion seconded :)

JediMaster12
01-12-2006, 05:16 PM
They are just suggestions PLEASE!! It is just a new idea to extend gameplay.

Darth Windu
01-12-2006, 10:53 PM
Lets see, what doesn't fit into the RPG style.

1. Pazaak
2. Swoop Racing
3. Trurret mini-game

Now, where have I see them again? Oh, thats right, they're integral parts of two great RPG's!

Sure, the game is an RPG, but that doesn't mean you can't divert from that every now and then.

lukeiamyourdad
01-12-2006, 10:58 PM
Mini-game

Besides, those are far from starfighter piloting.

Darth Windu
01-12-2006, 11:07 PM
...says who? The piloting would have to be a simple point and click, none of this flight sim 'toggle flaps, rudder etc' stuff.

Emperor Devon
01-12-2006, 11:31 PM
Vehicle transportation? It's already in both KotOR games. Just look at the Ebon Hawk. It would be a very long walk without it.

I think that's all the vehicle transportation the KotOR games will ever need. :)

REDJOHNNYMIKE
01-13-2006, 02:39 AM
One thing that I want to see for KIII is large scale maps (ever seen a clip from one of george's movies, they usually don't try to make you feel like you're in a tiny module.
If you've played Mercenaries (I'm not suggesting a Shooter ;)), you have a good idea of the kind of map I want (Multiple faction areas, with the possibility of impassible canyons/mountains dividing it up for a bit mor moduleistic feel) one problem with a large map is getting from one place to another, a transporter system (Fable, Dungeon siege) just wouldn't fit in in star wars like a landspeeder would.
If you've played mercenaries you'll probably think of launching sportscars of cliffs at 120 mph, and go RPG fundamentalist on me, remember you don't need arcade physics to get around, and it doesn't need to be a complex simulator either, if you keep the controls toned down and removed combat abilities (or made them weak, or make it impossible to attack altogether) you could have a decent transport to get you to your secret contact in the north woods (faction based vehicle recognization would be interesting) It would make sense to keep it just slower than force speed, but with bonuses to Armor, Constitution, and some immunities.
A light vehicle which decreases armor (and has a DC against wiping out, destroying and leaving you stunned with half HP, when suffering a critical hit at high speed (AI would have to be aware with quick sniping response)) would have the ability for higher than force speed.
Any Vehicle used MUST be composed of RPG stats.

Another option for transportation would be "rails" you can get in and out whenever you want and control the speed, but you can't start a hitnrun funfest on sith soldiers,
This would also work well on large scale vehicles such as jabba's desert "yacht" where the story might have you escorting an ambassador while fending off boarders

One advantage of a vehicle over walking is that you couldn't suffer melee or AOE attacks, or even harsh weather, depending on wether or not it's a ragtop;)
Armorwise the vehicle would work similarly to an expensive energy shield (except for a repair/recharge option) after the armor takes a certain number of hits, both you and the vehicle can suffer damage, a critical hit would bypass armor (think grassy knoll)

lukeiamyourdad
01-13-2006, 11:42 AM
...says who? The piloting would have to be a simple point and click, none of this flight sim 'toggle flaps, rudder etc' stuff.

Even something as simple as Rogue Squadron wouldn't be simple enough.
If you put something in, you have to do it right. If it's a relatively dumb mode, people will wonder why it was put in.
Like both the Swoop Racing and Turret Mini-game.
The first time I heard Swoop Racing, I thought SW EP1 Racer. It was only a simple drag race. I know other people felt that way.
The Turret Mini-game was also badly implemented with fighters always flying in the same pattern.

Both of them were as simple as those modes allowed them to be.

A starfighter mode however, would indeed be more complicated even in its simplest form. You have to get used to the flight mechanics, shooting arcs, etc.

Besides, what is this with the mixing of every possible genre into a single game? Look what happened to SWBF2. Mixing everything possible into a single game is not generally a good idea.

Cygnus Q'ol
01-13-2006, 12:26 PM
I enjoy Swoop racing.
I enjoy pazaak.
I (kind of) enjoy the turret sequences.

These are quick, harmless breaks in the game, but don't deter from the RPG feeling. If they can be slightly upgraded or improved then fine.

If I want a starfighter, dogfighting game then that's what I'll go and get.

This is not the essence of Kotor.

Meatbag
01-13-2006, 12:31 PM
I think Pazaak and swoops add to the feel of the game. Let you get a break, in Pazaak you can win helpful items. And swoop galleries are fun, I liked the Nar Shaddaa one, it gave of the feel of the planet: messy and ruleless.

RobQel-Droma
01-13-2006, 01:16 PM
A starfighter mode however, would indeed be more complicated even in its simplest form. You have to get used to the flight mechanics, shooting arcs, etc.

All right- forget the fighter idea! I don't care, I agree that it may be a waste of time. But that wasn't really the main part of my ideas. I was mostly talking about piloting ground vehicles, which I haven't really heard many people say anything about- you seem to all be stuck on the fighter. :)

JediMaster12
01-13-2006, 02:00 PM
Lets see, what doesn't fit into the RPG style.

1. Pazaak
2. Swoop Racing
3. Trurret mini-game

Now, where have I see them again? Oh, thats right, they're integral parts of two great RPG's!

Sure, the game is an RPG, but that doesn't mean you can't divert from that every now and then.

Point taken. I hope others see that as well:)

mogga
01-16-2006, 01:49 PM
It would definatly be a breath of fresh air to be able to pilot all the discarded landspeeders lyings around, the only problem is, the levels wu=ould have to be much larger,or else you could get through them in no time at all.

Vladimir-Vlada
01-17-2006, 12:45 PM
Lets see, what doesn't fit into the RPG style.

1. Pazaak
2. Swoop Racing
3. Trurret mini-game

Now, where have I see them again? Oh, thats right, they're integral parts of two great RPG's!

Sure, the game is an RPG, but that doesn't mean you can't divert from that every now and then.
Quoted for emphasis.

I remember that while I was reading something, I came up on this thing:
PALADIN'S MOUNT
The paladin's mount is different from a standard animal of its type in many ways. The standard mount for a Medium-size paladin is a warhorse, and the standard mount for a Small paladin is a warpony. A paladin's mount is a magical beast, not an animal. It is superior to a normal mount of its kind and has special powers, as shown below
Paladin Bonus Natural Str
Level HD Armor Adj. Int Special
------- ----- ------- ---- --- -------
5–7 +2 4 +1 6 Improved evasion, share
spells, empathic link, share
saving throws
8–10 +4 6 +2 7
11–14 +6 8 +3 8 Command creatures of its kind
15–20 +8 10 +4 9 Spell resistance
Paladin Level: The level of the paladin. If the mount suffers a level drain, treat it as a mount of a lower-level paladin.
Bonus HD: These are extra eight-sided (d8) Hit Dice, each of which gains a Constitution modifier, as normal. Remember that extra Hit Dice improve the mount's base attack and base save bonuses.
Natural Armor: The number listed here is an improvement to the mount's AC. It represents the preternatural toughness of a paladin's mount.
Str Adj.: Add this figure to the mount's Strength score.
Int: The mount's Intelligence score.
Improved Evasion: If the mount is subjected to an attack that normally allows a Reflex saving throw for half damage, it takes no damage if it makes a successful saving throw and half damage even if the saving throw fails. Improved evasion is an extraordinary ability.
Share Spells: At the paladin's option, the paladin may have any spell cast on him or herself also affect her mount. The mount must be within 5 feet. If the spell has a duration other than instantaneous, the spell stops affecting the mount if it moves farther than 5 feet away and will not affect the mount again even if the mount returns to the paladin before the duration expires. Additionally, the paladin may cast a spell with a target of "You" on the mount (as a touch range spell) instead of on herself. The paladin and the mount can share spells even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the mount's type.
Empathic Link: The paladin has an empathic link with the mount out to a distance of up to one mile. The paladin cannot see through the mount's eyes, but they can communicate telepathically. Even intelligent mounts see the world differently from humans, so misunderstandings are always possible. This is a supernatural ability.
Because of the empathic link between the mount and the paladin, the paladin has the same connection to an item or place that the mount does, just as a master and his familiar.
Share Saving Throws: The mount uses its own base save or the paladin's, whichever is higher.
Command: The mount's command ability is a spell-like ability that it can use at will against other creatures of its kind with fewer Hit Dice than it has itself. The mount can use this ability once per day per two levels of its paladin, and the ability functions just like the spell command (for purposes of this spell, the mount can make itself be understood by any normal animal of its kind). Since this is a spell-like ability, the mount must make a Concentration check (DC 21) if it's being ridden at the time (as in combat). If the check fails, the ability does not work that time, but it still counts against the mount's daily uses.
Spell Resistance: The mount's spell resistance equals the paladin's level + 5.
DRUID & RANGER ANIMAL COMPANIONS
Druids and rangers can use the animal friendship spell to gain animal companions. Use these rules of thumb when characters have animal companions.
While the spell allows a character to have animals whose Hit Dice total double the character's caster level, that maximum assumes optimal conditions. The typical adventurer should be able to maintain animal companions whose Hit Dice total half the maximum caster level. If the character spends most of her time in the animals' home territory and treats them well, she can approach and even achieve her maximum Hit Dice. If she spends most of her time at sea, in cities, or otherwise in places that the animals don't like, her animals desert, and she will not be able to retain even half her maximum. Remember, these creatures are loyal friends but not pets or servants. They won't remain loyal if being the character's friend becomes too onerous.
The animal is still an animal. It's not a magical beast, as a familiar or a paladin's mount is. While it may have learned some tricks, it's still no more intelligent than any other animal of its kind, and it retains all its bestial instincts. Unlike intelligent followers or cohorts, animals can't follow complex instructions, such as "Attack the gnoll with the wand." A character can give a simple verbal command, such as "Attack" or "Come," as a free action, provided such a command is among the tricks the animal has learned. A more complex instruction, such as telling an animal to attack and pointing out a specific target, is a standard action. Animals are ill-equipped to handle unusual situations, such as combats with invisible opponents, and they typically hesitate to attack weird and unnatural creatures, such as beholders and oozes.
Left to its own judgment, an animal follows a character and attacks creatures that attack her (or that attack the animal itself). To do more than that, it needs to learn tricks. An animal with an Intelligence of 2 can learn six tricks. Possible tricks include:
"Attack": The animal attacks apparent enemies. The character may point to a particular creature to direct the animal to attack that creature. Normally, an animal will not attack unnatural creatures (though it will defend people, guard places, and protect characters against them). Teaching an animal to be willing to attack unnatural creatures counts as two tricks.
"Come": The animal comes to the character, even if the animal normally would not do so (such as following the character onto a boat).
"Defend": The animal defends the character (or is ready to defend the character if no threat is present).
"Down": The animal breaks off from combat or otherwise backs down.
"Fetch": The animal goes and gets something. The character must point out a specific object or the animal fetches some random object.
"Guard": The animal stays in place and prevents others from approaching.
"Heel": The animal follows the character closely, even to places where it normally wouldn't go.
"Perform": The animal does a variety of simple tricks like sitting up, rolling over, roaring, and so on.
"Protect": The animal follows a specific other character and protects him from danger (like "Defend," but for another character).
"Seek": The animal moves into an area and looks around for anything unusual.
"Stay": The animal stays in place waiting for the character to return. It does not challenge other creatures that come by, though it still defends itself if it needs to.
"Track": The animal tracks the scent presented to it.
SORCERER & WIZARDS FAMILIARS
Familiar: A sorcerer or a wizard can call a familiar. Doing so takes a day and uses up magical materials that cost 100 gp. A familiar is a magical, unusually tough, and intelligent version of a small animal. It is a magical beast, not an animal. The creature serves as a companion and servant.
Even if the character is multiclassed with two or more classes that allow a familiar, only one familiar is permitted. For these kinds of multiclassed characters all the class levels in classes allowing a familiar are combined for determining the familiar’s abilities.
The master chooses the type of familiar he gets. As the master increases in level, the familiar also increases in power. In the special case of a character with both sorcerer and wizard levels, the character can add those levels together to determine the power level of the familiar.
If the familiar dies, or the master chooses to dismiss it, the master must attempt a Fortitude saving throw (DC 15). If the saving throw fails, the master loses 200 experience points per class level. A successful saving throw reduces the loss to half of that amount. However, a master's experience point total can never go below zero as the result of a familiar's demise. A slain or dismissed familiar cannot be replaced for a year and day. Slain familiars can be raised from the dead just as characters can be, but do not lose a level or a Constitution point when this happy event occurs.
These special abilities only apply when the master and familiar are within one mile of each other.
Table: Familiars
Familiar Special
-------- -------
Bat -
Cat Master gains a +2 bonus to Move Silently checks
Hawk -
Owl Has low-light vision; master gains a +2 bonus on
Move Silently checks
Rat Master gains a +2 bonus to Fortitude saves
Raven Speaks one language
Snake (Tiny) Poisonous bite
Toad Master gains +2 to Constitution score
Weasel Master gains a +2 bonus on Reflex saves
Familiar Basics: Use the basic statistics for a creature of its type, but make these changes:
Hit Dice: Treat as the master's character level (for effects related to Hit Dice). Use the familiar's normal total if it is higher.
Hit Points: One-half the master's total, rounded down.
Attacks: Use the master's base attack bonus. Use the familiar's Dexterity or Strength modifier, whichever is greater, to get the familiar's melee attack bonus with unarmed attacks. Damage equals that of a normal creature of that type.
Saving Throws: The familiar uses the master's base saving throw bonuses if they're better than the familiar's.
Skills: Use the normal skills for an animal of that type or the master's, whichever are better.
Familiar Ability Descriptions: All familiars have special abilities (or impart abilities to their masters) depending on the level of the master. The abilities are cumulative.
Table: Familiar Special Abilities
Master Natural
Class Level Armor Int Special
----------- ------- --- -------
1–2 +1 6 Alertness, improved evasion, share
spells, empathic link
3–4 +2 7 Touch
5–6 +3 8 Speak with master
7–8 +4 9 Speak with animals of its type
9–10 +5 10
11–12 +6 11 Spell resistance
13–14 +7 12 Scry on familiar
15–16 +8 13
17–18 +9 14
19–20 +10 15
Natural Armor: This number improves the familiar's AC.
Intelligence: The familiar's Intelligence score.
Alertness: The presence of the familiar sharpens its master's senses. While the familiar is within arm's reach, the master gains Alertness.
Improved Evasion: If the familiar is subjected to an attack that normally allows a Reflex saving throw for half damage, the familiar takes no damage if it makes a successful saving throw and half damage even if the saving throw fails. Improved evasion is an extraordinary ability.
Share Spells: At the master's option, he may have any spell he or she casts on themselves also affect a familiar. The familiar must be within 5 feet at the time. If the spell has a duration other than instantaneous, the spell stops affecting the familiar if it moves farther than 5 feet away. The spell's effect will not be restored even if the familiar returns to the master before the duration would otherwise have ended. Additionally, the master may cast a spell with a target of "You" on a familiar (as a Touch range spell) instead. The master and familiar can share spells even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the familiar's type.
Empathic Link: The master has an empathic link with the familiar out to a distance of up to one mile. The master cannot see through the familiar's eyes, but the two of them can communicate telepathically. This is a supernatural ability.
Because of the empathic link between the familiar and the master, the master has the same connection to an item or place that the familiar does. For instance, if his familiar has seen a room, a master can teleport into that room as if he has seen it too.
Touch: If the master is 3rd level or higher, the familiar can deliver touch spells for the master. When the master casts a touch spell, the familiar can be designated as the "toucher." (The master and the familiar have to be in contact at the time of casting.) The familiar can then deliver the touch spell just as the master could. As normal, if the master casts another spell, the touch spell dissipates.
Speak with Animals of Its Type: The familiar can communicate with animals of approximately the same type as itself (including dire variants). The communication is limited by the Intelligence of the conversing creatures.
Speak with Master: The familiar and master can communicate verbally as if they were using a common language. Other creatures do not understand the communication with out magical help.
Spell Resistance: If the master is 11th level or higher, the familiar gains spell resistance equal to the master's level + 5.
Scry: If the master is 13th level or higher, the master may scry on the familiar (as if casting the spell scrying) once per day. This is a spell-like ability that requires no material components or focus.

This sounded like RPG rules to me, but when I wanted to see which rules are these, I saw:
• d20 = twenty sided dice
That's weird. D20 rules support mounts. But what are mounts?
Answer: Vehicles

Now, about the flying Rogue Squadron style: I was thinking of the same idea. But since I know that there is aiming in the Rogue Squadron style and it is an absoulte which cannot be adapted to the RPG system, the RPGers don't agree and I didn't want to be patronised ( :rolleyes: ); I gave up on it. (Strangely no one who sugested it didn't get patronised... Nah.)

But then I realised that maybe it wasn't meant to be; Rogue Squadron style and so.

But until:
Tactical Movement
Use tactical speed for combat.
Some creatures have other modes of movement.
Burrow
The creature can tunnel through dirt, but not through rock unless the descriptive text says otherwise. Creatures cannot use the run action while burrowing.
Climb
A creature with a climb speed has the Climb skill at no cost and gains a +8 racial bonus to all Climb checks. The creature must make a Climb check to climb any wall or slope with a DC of more than 0, but it always can choose to take 10, even if rushed or threatened while climbing. The creature climbs at the listed speed while climbing. If it chooses an accelerated climb, it moves at double the listed climb speed (or its normal land speed, whichever is less) and makes a single Climb check at a -5 penalty. Creatures cannot use the run action while climbing.
Fly
The creature can fly at the listed speed if carrying no more than a medium load. All fly speeds include a parenthetical note indicating maneuverability, as follows.
Perfect: The creature can perform almost any aerial maneuver it wishes.
Good: The creature is very agile in the air (like a housefly or hummingbird), but cannot change direction as readily as those with perfect maneuverability.
Average: The creature can fly as adroitly as a small bird.
Poor: The creature flies as well as a very large bird.
Clumsy: The creature can barely fly at all.
Creatures can use the run action while flying, provided they fly in a straight line.
Most flying creatures have to slow down at least a little to make a turn, and many are limited to fairly wide turns and must maintain a minimum forward speed. Each flying creature has a maneuverability rating that defines how it moves when flying.
Table: Flight Maneuverability
Type: Perfect Good Average Poor Clumsy
----- ------- ---- ------- ---- ------
Example: (Will-o’-wisp) (Beholder) (Gargoyle) (Wyvern) (Manticore)
Minimum Forward Speed None None Half Half Half
Hover Yes Yes No No No
Fly Backward Yes Yes No No No
Reverse Free –5 ft. — — —
Turn Any 90º/5 ft. 45º/5 ft. 45º/5 ft. 45º/10 ft.
Turn in Place Any +90º/–5 ft. +45º/–5 ft. No No
Maximum Turn Any Any 90º 45º 45º
Up Angle Any Any 60º 45º 45º
Up Speed Full Half Half Half Half
Down Angle Any Any Any 45º 45º
Down Speed Double Double Double Double Double
Between Down and Up 0 0 5 ft. 10 ft. 20 ft.
Minimum Forward Speed: If a flying creature fails to maintain its minimum forward speed, it must land at the end of its movement. If it is too high above the ground to land, it falls straight down, descending 150 feet in the first round of falling. If this distance brings it to the ground, it takes falling damage. If the fall doesn’t bring the creature to the ground, it must spend its next turn recovering from the stall. It must succeed at a Reflex saving throw (DC 20) to recover. Otherwise it falls another 300 feet. If it hits the ground, it takes falling damage. Otherwise, it has another chance to recover on its next turn.
Hover: The ability to stay in one place while airborne.
Fly Backward: The ability to fly backward.
Reverse: A creature with good maneuverability uses up 5 feet of its speed to start flying backward.
Turn: How much the creature can turn after covering the stated distance.
Turn in Place: A creature with good or average maneuverability can “spend” some of its speed to turn in place.
Maximum Turn: How much the creature can turn in any one space.
Up Angle: The angle at which the creature can climb.
Up Speed: How fast the creature can climb.
Down Angle: The angle at which the creature can descend.
Down Speed: A flying creature can fly down at twice its normal flying speed.
Between Down & Up: An average, poor, or clumsy flier must fly level for a minimum distance after descending and before climbing. Any flier can begin descending after a climb without an intervening distance.

This caught my attention.

Hmmm... I crossed the line. Ladies and gentlemen, start your lecturing... NOW.

Prime
01-17-2006, 04:05 PM
I remember that while I was reading something, I came up on this thing:

This sounded like RPG rules to me, but when I wanted to see which rules are these, I saw:

That's weird. D20 rules support mounts. But what are mounts?Yes, mounts have been included in d20 since the beginning.

Now, about the flying Rogue Squadron style: I was thinking of the same idea. But since I know that there is aiming in the Rogue Squadron style and it is an absoulte which cannot be adapted to the RPG system, the RPGers don't agree and I didn't want to be patronised ( :rolleyes: ); I gave up on it. (Strangely no one who sugested it didn't get patronised... Nah.)

But then I realised that maybe it wasn't meant to be; Rogue Squadron style and so.

But until:

This caught my attention.But d20 mount rules have nothing to do with twitch-based RS style flight sims. What is your point here?

Hmmm... I crossed the line. Ladies and gentlemen, start your lecturing... NOW.OK. Can the attitude.

Vladimir-Vlada
01-17-2006, 04:29 PM
But d20 mount rules have nothing to do with twitch-based RS style flight sims. What is your point here?

But why are they then mentioning tactical movement? From what I see here, the quote I listed pretty much resembles flying sims. Which is strange considering how strict RPG rules are.

If there is an explanation that I don't know about, please state it.

Prime
01-17-2006, 09:03 PM
I'm not sure where you got it, but it appears to be the rules for the pen and paper rpg.

RedHawke
01-17-2006, 11:32 PM
But why are they then mentioning tactical movement? From what I see here, the quote I listed pretty much resembles flying sims. Which is strange considering how strict RPG rules are.

If there is an explanation that I don't know about, please state it.
Remember Vlad PnP RPG rules are physically "tactically" mapped out using map sheets with 1 inch squares or Hex grids with lead or pewter miniatures, this is the tactical movements you are talking about. It is a slow tedious process as each player takes their turn pending their initiative rolls, something that would be very booring for most players, except the "die hard" fans, which is why many RPG games have the use of miniatures as an optional rule. ;)

Hallucination
01-18-2006, 12:04 AM
Lets see, what doesn't fit into the RPG style.
1. Pazaak
2. Swoop Racing
3. Trurret mini-game
Now, where have I see them again? Oh, thats right, they're integral parts of two great RPG's!

in·te·gral adj.
1.Essential or necessary for completeness; constituent: The kitchen is an integral part of a house.
2.Possessing everything essential; entire.
Wait.... something almost entirely avoidable is integral?
1.You don't need to play pazaak in either KOTOR.
2.You only need to swoop race once in the series.
3. a)trurrets don't exist.
b) If you meant turrets, if you took out the mini-game, who would really care? Its only 30 seconds in between planets.

On topic: I'm not really interested in vehicles, the Ebon Hawk and Force Speed are enough for me.

Vladimir-Vlada
01-18-2006, 09:21 AM
Remember Vlad PnP RPG rules are physically "tactically" mapped out using map sheets with 1 inch squares or Hex grids with lead or pewter miniatures, this is the tactical movements you are talking about. It is a slow tedious process as each player takes their turn pending their initiative rolls, something that would be very booring for most players, except the "die hard" fans, which is why many RPG games have the use of miniatures as an optional rule.
Oh... Well at least the feeling was good while it lasted. I really thought that I had something there. :(

RobQel-Droma
01-18-2006, 11:10 AM
Wait.... something almost entirely avoidable is integral?
1.You don't need to play pazaak in either KOTOR.
2.You only need to swoop race once in the series.
3. a)trurrets don't exist.
b) If you meant turrets, if you took out the mini-game, who would really care? Its only 30 seconds in between planets.

On topic: I'm not really interested in vehicles, the Ebon Hawk and Force Speed are enough for me.

You know, you really should be an English Teacher.

But anyways, forget "integral." We really didn't need the exact definition; I think everyone understood what he meant. But still, as you said, all of those mini-games are optional, except on story points. Furthermore, you said that you didn't really care about the vehicle transportation.

So.... why not have this in the game? It would be absolutely optional, if you want to run at force speed you can, if you want to spend some credits on a beast you can. Completely un-connected with the storyline, completely optional, and completely miniscule. Not even more than one mode of transportation per planet, if you want.

JediMaster12
01-18-2006, 05:57 PM
3. a)trurrets don't exist.
b) If you meant turrets, if you took out the mini-game, who would really care? Its only 30 seconds in between planets.

On topic: I'm not really interested in vehicles, the Ebon Hawk and Force Speed are enough for me.

Trurrets do to exist, at least when you use Force Speed to type:)

Still I think it is a worthy suggestion because it can get the player to places without having to run all over the place. I was lazy in TSL on Nar Shadaa, I used that speeder everywhere. :)

Hallucination
01-18-2006, 07:47 PM
You know, you really should be an English Teacher.
Thanks, but I'm a little more ambitious than to settle for that. ;)

So.... why not have this in the game? It would be absolutely optional, if you want to run at force speed you can, if you want to spend some credits on a beast you can. Completely un-connected with the storyline, completely optional, and completely miniscule. Not even more than one mode of transportation per planet, if you want.
Good point, but isn't it going to make KOTOR too short? KOTOR already is very short, and the areas are too small for it to really matter who has the bigger bantha. So to make the big banthas better (alliterations are cool:cool:), they would need to make the areas bigger, and if the areas are bigger it would make using your own to feet rather slow and useless.

RobQel-Droma
01-18-2006, 08:53 PM
Make KOTOR too short? Huh? I'm not quite sure what that has to do with what I am talking about, or what you mean.

Clone L68362
01-18-2006, 09:09 PM
Geez, a lot of these topics now are being responded with "No no no it's an RPG, not an FPS!"

This idea is okay.

Darth Windu
01-18-2006, 10:40 PM
Hey, leave my trurrets alone :P

Sure, you don't need to play Pazaak to complete the game. You only need to do the swoop racing once, but you do need to do the turret game many times.

However, to win the game, you don't need to
- wear clothes
- take companions
- use weapons

You can still beat the game, but still those features are an integral part of the game. :)

RobQel-Droma
01-18-2006, 11:39 PM
^Somethings that I have not needed or used at times, just to prove I could solo take on 5 Sith in my underwear, with my bare hands.

But anyways, very good point. In the unlikely event that you don't want/can't use it, you don't have to.

Prime
01-19-2006, 10:00 AM
Geez, a lot of these topics now are being responded with "No no no it's an RPG, not an FPS!"Because many people do not want KOTOR to become a FPS-ish series. ;)

RobQel-Droma
01-19-2006, 10:19 AM
^But this wouldn't change it into an FPS.

JediMaster12
01-19-2006, 11:11 AM
I think others are behind you on that Rob.

Hallucination
01-19-2006, 08:00 PM
Hey, leave my trurrets alone :P

Sure, you don't need to play Pazaak to complete the game. You only need to do the swoop racing once, but you do need to do the turret game many times.

However, to win the game, you don't need to
- wear clothes
- take companions
- use weapons

You can still beat the game, but still those features are an integral part of the game. :)
Prove it. Go through all of K1 without using any party member, armour, or weapon (or cheats/mods), unless they are nessesary to do a quest. And then only at the moment when you need it.
You can't do it, and even if you could you wouldn't be able to prove it

@Rob: I meant that, for a mount to be worth paying for it would have to go atleast three or four times as fast as normal running. In an area that takes 30 seconds to run across on foot, it would take 10 seconds for a mount to run that distance. As you can guess, that wouldn't very useful if you only use it 10 seconds at a time, so the places you can use it would have to be bigger, about 1:30 to run across (at normal running speed). Now, if someone didn't want to use a mount it would really suck for them to run across a place for 1:30.
P.S. Banthas in K1 went slower than walking.

Jae Onasi
01-19-2006, 10:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobQel-Droma
You know, you really should be an English Teacher.



Thanks, but I'm a little more ambitious than to settle for that. ;) ...So to make the big banthas better (alliterations are cool:cool,....(snipped)





;) English professor then? :p :)

There are some times that I'd like to zip through an area, and I missed the transit function in TSL. A swoopbike or landspeeder would be nice for that kind of thing.
Of course, we could just ask Scotty to beam us up.... :beam1:

:D

Hallucination
01-19-2006, 10:57 PM
;) English professor then? :p :)
I was thinking more like Literary God :p (I'll steal that position from ForceFight and make it more...masculine...someday...)

There are some times that I'd like to zip through an area, and I missed the transit function in TSL. A swoopbike or landspeeder would be nice for that kind of thing.
Of course, we could just ask Scotty to beam us up.... :beam1:
:D
I like that system just fine (although I was sad the K1 rapid transit system got thrown away :(. And they didn't even take it out of the Xbox manual!) The thing I won't like is the mount/vehicle thing, mainly because I don't want to see thing become a driving sim. We have games devoted entirely to that genre if people wanted to go for it, but apparently we need 'Grand Theft Speeder: Mos Eisly', minus the theft.

RobQel-Droma
01-19-2006, 11:22 PM
Prove it. Go through all of K1 without using any party member, armour, or weapon (or cheats/mods), unless they are nessesary to do a quest. And then only at the moment when you need it.
spoiler:
You can't do it, and even if you could you wouldn't be able to prove it

Ok, you can't go through around 21.253492% of the game without those things. :xp: Seriously, first you argue about the correct usage of a word, then you start talking about how much of the game you can go through with nothing equipped. :) You're kind of getting into too much detail with what people say.

And actually, I would dispute you on that. I don't think it is entirely impossible to do without, with the exception of the boss fights and stuff. But as I said, this is kind of pointless and irrelevant figuring out whether you can or can't. Darth Windu's point still stands- there are several things in KOTOR and TSL that you don't need to use, yet are parts of the game.

The thing I won't like is the mount/vehicle thing, mainly because I don't want to see thing become a driving sim.

It isn't going to be a driving sim. Please, all you do is have your character get up on top of a beast, and move faster. Then, you get off, and attack- you can't get on during combat, and you can't use them in some areas. I kind of get the feeling that when one little option is suggested, even if it doesn't change anything, especially the game system and style, is immediately shouted down because "it becomes something else."

We're talking about the most minor of options- I don't know how to describe how miniscule this is. It has no impact on the game, or the gameplay.

I meant that, for a mount to be worth paying for it would have to go atleast three or four times as fast as normal running. In an area that takes 30 seconds to run across on foot, it would take 10 seconds for a mount to run that distance. As you can guess, that wouldn't very useful if you only use it 10 seconds at a time, so the places you can use it would have to be bigger, about 1:30 to run across (at normal running speed). Now, if someone didn't want to use a mount it would really suck for them to run across a place for 1:30.
P.S. Banthas in K1 went slower than walking.

Think back to K1. Remember the Dune Seas? It did suck to run across it without force speed, because it took a while. Not extremely long, really, but it still took a while. Now add a mount; it takes a little less. You don't have to use it, you could just use force speed. If you didn't use anything, it took a bit to get to the other side- but have I heard people complain about that, or say anything about that? No. And there is a perfect example of what I am proposing.

P.S. Banthas in K1 went slower than walking.

1) Banthas are only one mode of transportation.
2) You never saw them run, just walk, so- who knows how fast they can go if they really want to go?
3) Anyways, thanks for telling me, but... I don't really understand your point...

Jae Onasi
01-19-2006, 11:24 PM
:D As long as Grand Not-So-Theft Speeder: Mos Eisley is optional, I could live with it being in the game. Those who want to play it can, those who don't won't be forced to do so. I'd probably not play it more than once or twice unless there was an EZ-speeder mod because I'm not particularly good at that kind of thing and it isn't germane to the story. I have no desire to spend a lot of time trying to beat it. I just want something to use to get around a little easier once I've already been through an area, whether that's a rapid transit function, a speeder/swoop bike, or a guide like the Mandalorian guide on Dxun (or something equivalent).

RobQel-Droma
01-19-2006, 11:47 PM
^You know what, that is another thought- if you actually decide to use it, you could have in some places a option for it to just "warp" you there, like the Mandalorian guide.

Darth Windu
01-20-2006, 07:01 AM
Hmmm, interesting. Perhaps in a side-quest there could be a little swoop race thingy, except that you had to steal one and get it somewhere without being killed...

Prime
01-20-2006, 09:25 AM
^But this wouldn't change it into an FPS.That's why I put the "ish". :)

JediMaster12
01-24-2006, 02:36 PM
Hmmm, interesting. Perhaps in a side-quest there could be a little swoop race thingy, except that you had to steal one and get it somewhere without being killed...

So turn it into like stealing the Ebon Hawk from Davik? Sounds cool! I liked killing Davik. The Exchange needs to die!!!

There is no emotion, there is peace. I did it again. I need to go back to Jedi boot camp: Basic Training. I'm totally losing it.

ChAiNz.2da
01-24-2006, 02:53 PM
There is no emotion, there is peace. I did it again. I need to go back to Jedi boot camp: Basic Training. I'm totally losing it.
@JediMaster12
Please stop spamming the threads with your one-liners and "I agree" posts.

While agreeing with a Member is an admirable gesture... constantly doing it over & over, while not contributing anything else to the topic is considered SPAM. Unless you have something else to add to the thread's topic other than simply "cheerleading".. don't clutter up the thread(s) again.

This latest "Basic Training" line is another thing that needs to "not happen again".

Consider this a Warning.

ChAiNz.2da

JediMaster12
01-26-2006, 11:15 AM
@ ChAiNz.2da: I apologize.

The idea of having vehicles on planets is a good one. I personally liked trying to get the speeder functional on Nar Shadaa. What I disliked was that it was sabotaged by the time you get back to Nar Shadaa after blowing up the yacht. How about the dev making that not happen if they manage to send you back to Nar Shadaa for what ever reason.

Cygnus Q'ol
01-26-2006, 01:35 PM
It's really not that big of a deal.

It would be cool to use a transport, as long as there isn't to much to it piloting wise. The idea is just to get where you want to go faster. Right?

Hallucination is right though, it really wouldn't be worth it unless the board was really large. Which is OK with me.

I feel the areas in KotOR and TSL were too small anyway, especially if you play it more than 10 or 20 times.

Cut scenes could also be utilized. That way we would get to our destination quicker and visually it would enhance the experience and no one would get upset over a lost RPG feel.

Oh yeah, it would be strickly optional.
Sometimes I like to take my time getting places.

Lord_Andre
02-22-2006, 03:27 PM
The Idea of a starfighter is good,but the question is what type of starfighter.
In Kotor 1 and 2 whe have two types:the Republic starfighter and Revans
Star Forge prototype starfighter.

Darth Windu
02-22-2006, 10:14 PM
Huh? What Prototype fighter? We've god

- Republic Fighter
- Republic Bomber
- Sith Fighter
- G-wing/Mandalorian Shuttle
- Basalisk Droid

JediMaster12
02-23-2006, 11:39 AM
How about a capital class vessel like the Harbinger? You could man the turrets just like the Hawk.

Lord_Andre
02-23-2006, 03:05 PM
Sorry I forgot about them.The SITH Fighter is Revan's Star Forge prototype,
actualy its a hybrid.You can look at its history at www.starwars.com/databank. :vadar: