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CadmiumRED
01-17-2006, 11:37 PM
Would it be possible if armor and robes can be worn at the same time? Look at Ulic Qel-Droma before he was a Sith, he wore armor/robes on him, and he looked REALLY cool. Maybe it might not be for KOTOR III, but I'd love to see this happen in future KOTOR games. What do you all think of this idea?

Darth Dmitrius
01-18-2006, 12:54 AM
Maybe it's a good idea, but don't forget, that KotOR is a game, RPG game. If player wears an armor and a robe at the same time, armor will be too strong, player may become too strong for the game.

Char Ell
01-18-2006, 01:17 AM
IIRC Darth Bandon from the original KotOR had light armor and seemed to use force powers normally restricted from use by armor-wearing characters. Coincidentally I'm in the middle of my first DS playthru of TSL and I keep thinking how it would rock to have light armor underneath robes for my Sith Marauder PC. :devsmoke: So I think it's a great idea. :D

Actually, Colma Adawin (formerly MattColejk) has a Jedi and Sith Battle Robes Mod (http://www.pcgamemods.com/mod/13728.html) that goes along these lines. I really like the look of it but the tslpatcher didn't seem to work right with my TSL installation, like it was installing the mod 2x. My game kept crashing to desktop after I installed it and it took me removing all my mods and reinstalling them minus Colma's battle robes mod before I could get my game to run OK again.

REDJOHNNYMIKE
01-18-2006, 01:31 AM
This is something I've always wanted;)

The simple solution would be to add a new class consisting of light armor and robe models, with their own niche in the item statistics.

The more complex (and ultimatley more rewarding) way would be to make it possible to combine different compatible types of underwear/clothes/armor/robes with different bonuses and penalties for each combination (per class not per individual item possibilities)
One way might be to weaken the stats on most items but have a layering system...
1st layer, underwear: base layer, mainly aesthetic, no defense or attributes (with the exception of expensive units that might utilize nanobots for regeneration, insulation for resistances, etc.)...boxers, briefs or thong (female pc:xp: )
2nd layer, clothing: most common item, base defense of 1-2 (3 would be very rare) more expensive outfits would provide some attribute benefits (less than armor, more than skivvies) the main advantage of clothing would be faction/alignment/attractiveness/charisma recognizable by npcs ingame.
3rd layer, armor: most versatile upgradeable item, base defense of 4-8 (with rare armor having base up to 10) easiest to find next to clothing, would include attachments for armbands and wrist rockets (they can still be used without armor, but armor including power units would give a small bonus to attached shields and weapons)
4th layer, robes: base defense 3-6 (rarest robes may have 7) larger robes can be worn over all armor (instead of optional replacement) the "smaller" the robe the lighter the armor it can fit over, may add dexterity penalty for wearing over armor.

Redhawke can hash out the numbers with me:D

I also want to see "real" gauntlets and boots, and maybe some sort of amulet (you could either use it to carry you're "one ring to rule them all" or possibly austin power's male symbol chain to increase mojo:cool: )

JediMaster12
01-18-2006, 11:13 AM
Adding another class system seems a bit much, don't it? I'm sure as to why the armour restrictions in the game but this idea might be a bit out of league for the game unless someone creates a mod.

RobQel-Droma
01-18-2006, 11:29 AM
Well, the Jal Shey and Zeishon Sha armor seems to take care of that anyways. Armor, yet not restricting force powers like robes.

As for these layers, that is a bit complicated- and unrealistic. Usually the PC isn't going to be wearing four layers of clothes. Way too much more to try and deal with, and besides, who in their right mind is going to wear underwear, clothes, armor, and robes at the same time, then go on to some super hot planet and fight Sith. It doesn't make any sense.

You see, if you have armor, clothes, and robes on, your movement is going to be seriously slowed, and even more force powers would need to be restricted. So in the long run, it doesn't really make any difference.

And besides, Jedi Robes are not meant to be armor- they are just that, Robes. If you want armored Jedi gear, go wear the Zeishon Sha and Jal Shey stuff. They already fit what you seem to want.

JediMaster12
01-18-2006, 06:10 PM
Thanks for the tip Rob and by the way, I think the Jedi Council dropped you off on Bandomeer, in the middle of the Agri-Corp project. Have fun! ;)

Dark$eth
01-18-2006, 07:14 PM
I would like a cape in KotOR3.

SUPERMAN!
That happen on the.. the.. that armor with a cape and a skirt in TSL, I forgot what it is called, but it has a blue cape. The cape doesn't fly :( but rolls over limply when you move. I like that armor alot; it's Blue!

Char Ell
01-18-2006, 07:29 PM
If you want armored Jedi gear, go wear the Zeishon Sha and Jal Shey stuff. They already fit what you seem to want. *** looks around *** Uhh, you talkin' to me? :confused:

Actually no, these armors don't fit what I want. While I like the fact that OE included some non-force restricted armor suits like the Zeison Sha and Jal Shey ones you refer to, I believe I've already pointed out a mod in post #3 of this thread that is more along the lines of what I would really like. Simply put, robes with light armor underneath. I'm thinking this parallels with rangers wearing leather armor underneath a forest cloak, affording a high degree of mobility and flexibility yet more protection than the cloak (a.k.a. robes) by itself. Besides the fact that IMO it just looks way cool. :D

RobQel-Droma
01-18-2006, 08:51 PM
I think the Jedi Council dropped you off on Bandomeer, in the middle of the Agri-Corp project. Have fun!

What the ****!!! Those stupid moronic idiots! I thought they sent me to Dantooine! Grrrhh...


*** looks around *** Uhh, you talkin' to me?

More to everyone in general.

I believe I've already pointed out a mod in post #3 of this thread that is more along the lines of what I would really like. Simply put, robes with light armor underneath. I'm thinking this parallels with rangers wearing leather armor underneath a forest cloak, affording a high degree of mobility and flexibility yet more protection than the cloak (a.k.a. robes) by itself.

But what I said still stands- it is no longer a Robe. It is light armor with a cape. In fact, it still is similar to the armors I mentioned, if you think about it. It has a robe/cloak/skirt, whatever, connected to a lightly armored suit. So there is no Robe/Armor combination like you seem to want.

Darth Windu
01-18-2006, 10:39 PM
Robes and armour at the same time is a bad idea. As Rob pointed out, if you want to wear non-restrictive armour, then wear the Zeison-sha armour.

Cygnus Q'ol
01-19-2006, 10:43 AM
What is the pupose of armor?
To increase the defense rating, correct?

The trade off for increased defense is that some of your force abilities are negated. Zeison-Sha Jedi robes are a great way to raise your defense rating while maintaining your force capabilities. Unfortunately, they are very ugly. I hardly use them.

Jal-Shey robes are similar in that they don't restrict force capabilities but provide somewhat adequate protection. Unfortunately, these are ugly also. These two robes are also upgradeable to a point to make them a bit more effective. If you can stand the sight of them.

I was really dissapointed when I aquired Darth Bandon's armor and was force power restricted. It would be really sweet to aquire the armor/robes, and weapons of a fallen opponent though. I really wanted to wear Nihilus' mask.

JediMaster12
01-19-2006, 11:01 AM
I don't like them either so I guess that's two for us. I use robes anyway.

Char Ell
01-19-2006, 08:43 PM
More to everyone in general.
OK. Got it. ;)
But what I said still stands- it is no longer a Robe. It is light armor with a cape. In fact, it still is similar to the armors I mentioned, if you think about it. It has a robe/cloak/skirt, whatever, connected to a lightly armored suit. So there is no Robe/Armor combination like you seem to want. Have you checked out my link to Colma Adawin's mod in post #3 of this thread? Those battle robes look like Jedi robes to me, not a cape. When I used the word parallel it was meant to draw a similarity, not say they would be exactly the same. Instead of just the regular Jedi tunic underneath the robes they have an armored vest but other than that I think the outfit looks fairly Jedi-like.
Robes and armour at the same time is a bad idea. As Rob pointed out, if you want to wear non-restrictive armour, then wear the Zeison-sha armour.
:eyeraise: IYO, not mine. I believe I've made it abundantly clear in this thread that I like the idea of light armor (or armored vest if you will) underneath Jedi robes. I don't know where you and Rob get off on telling those of us who like the armored robes to just deal with it and wear Zeison Sha or Jal Shey armor. Have you somehow missed the whole purpose behind modding? What if I told you, Darth Windu, that violet lightsabers is a bad idea and to use green or blue ones instead? Would you like that? I'm somewhat surprised at your temerity seeing as you're what I consider a forum veteran. I guess I should read more of your posts to see if I should have been surprised or not.
I was really dissapointed when I aquired Darth Bandon's armor and was force power restricted. It would be really sweet to aquire the armor/robes, and weapons of a fallen opponent though. I really wanted to wear Nihilus' mask. Yeah, I was disappointed too. Not only that it had the force power restrictions of normal armor but that when I equipped my PC with it he didn't look the same as Bandon did when he wore it. :(

Clone L68362
01-19-2006, 09:00 PM
Calm down Hai Wan. You're acting like he openly insulted you. He never said deal with it either. Just that the Zeison Sha stuff is a good substitute for now.

Char Ell
01-19-2006, 11:13 PM
Perhaps you're right, Clone L68362. But you're not helping matters... ::

From my perspective there is a big difference between "___ is a bad idea" and "I think ___ is a bad idea" If someone has an opposing opinion to mine I strive to respect that. I will argue my point but if someone doesn't see it my way then I accept their decision as their right and prerogative. But it bothers me when people make statements as if what they say is absolute truth. Statements like that don't sit well with me (as if you couldn't tell already;))

I get that Rob Qel-Droma and Darth Windu poo-poo the robes+armor idea. Obviously I won't be asking them to make any robes+armor mods for me as I believe that would be a waste of my time. :D But it seems to me like neither took the time to consider my argument that the robes+armor concept is feasible and in fact has already been done. I guess that is what really irks me. If they had come back and said, "Yeah, I checked that out but I still don't like it" then it would have been end of argument for me.

RobQel-Droma
01-19-2006, 11:37 PM
I don't know where you and Rob get off on telling those of us who like the armored robes to just deal with it and wear Zeison Sha or Jal Shey armor. Have you somehow missed the whole purpose behind modding? What if I told you, Darth Windu, that violet lightsabers is a bad idea and to use green or blue ones instead? Would you like that?

Clone is right: CALM DOWN, I wasn't insulting you, and I wasn't insulting anybody. But now you have gotten me a bit ticked off with what you have said.

For one, I never said "deal with it." And I am a bit annoyed at your "I don't get where DW and you can get off telling us to deal with it when we like the armored robes." I have said this before- THERE ARE NO ARMORED ROBES, unless you count the Zeison Sha and Jal Shey Armor, which is really light armor with a cape. Which is why I said that you should stick with those armors since they seem to fit what you want.

And that is just it- they are no longer considered "Jedi Robes" if they are armor, otherwise, just like I said before (I'm repeating myself) they are some kind of armored superman costume.

I don't have a problem with ZS/JS stuff, I have a problem with these so-called "armored robes", for my above reasons. I also have a problem with all these layers, which I explained my reasons for above, also.

ut it seems to me like neither took the time to consider my argument that the robes+armor concept is feasible and in fact has already been done. I guess that is what really irks me. If they had come back and said, "Yeah, I checked that out but I still don't like it" then it would have been end of argument for me.

*ahem* Those are MODS. Just that, GAME MODIFICATIONS. They have nothing to do with what would actually make sense and fit in the game. You could make a mod that made guantlets turn you into a storm beast (I've seen one). But does that mean that they would be feasible, and "already done"? No, they wouldn't.

Don't start acting like you know what we did and what is going through our minds, and we are just ignoring your "evidence"; it was irrelevant. Mods can do all sorts of things, many of which make no sense and do not fit into Star Wars. So the fact the somone has made a mod for it means nothing, since mods can and have done crazy things which really aren't "realistic" in the SW sense, or are no longer really what you are talking about.

Char Ell
01-20-2006, 12:56 AM
OK. I'm calm. At least I feel like you're paying somewhat closer attention now. It is unfortunate that my getting ticked off and in turn ticking other thread contributors off is what it took to get here but here we are now. :(

So let me get this straight RobQel-Droma. You believe that once the tunic/shirt is replaced with a light armor vest or suit underneath Jedi Robes then this no longer constitutes Jedi Robes, right?
THERE ARE NO ARMORED ROBES, unless you count the Zeison Sha and Jal Shey Armor, which is really light armor with a cape. Which is why I said that you should stick with those armors since they seem to fit what you want. Umm.. you must be speaking to CadmiumRED or someone else on this thread, right? I believe I've already stated that while I like the Zeison Sha/Jal Shey armors they aren't what I really want.

They (the armored robes) have nothing to do with what would actually make sense and fit in the game.I wholeheartedly, but respectfully, disagree. I believe that this concept is quite feasible, makes great sense to me and I like it. However I fully understand that you are diametrically opposed to this. So be it. ;)

RedHawke
01-20-2006, 01:28 AM
If you all are talking D20 Rules wise, Armored Robes that would allow the use of Force Powers are possible... sort of a sci-fi equivelant of Elven Chainmail.

So we got the ugly Zeison Sha and Jal Shey model in TSL, if they exist so can other ones as well. They are basically Armored Robes, even though the game gave us an ugly skirted light armor model for them they are supposed to be, at their core, Armored Robes. Hence why they allow the use of Force Powers, but the other basic armors do not.

Just my 2 cents! :D

REDJOHNNYMIKE
01-20-2006, 01:59 AM
*GAAAGHH*
Redhawke, I was sure you were going to go RP agro on this:D
What attributes would need to be modified to balance my multi-layer suggestion, to make it all d20ish?

@Rob, If I want more protection or simply a different look, It's my choice to wear all that (if I was in SW) and as for it being hot, depending on the materials and equipment contained in the suits it would provide much superior environment control than a jedi robe.

So, a combat suit with a jedi robe over it has worse flexibility than Mandalorian armor?

The JS and ZS don't fit what I want (or what CRed originally posted, "armor and"), they aren't armor with a robe over it.

@Windu, the point isn't always to wear non-restrictive armor (if you're talking about force restriction, you're not always a jedi and your party isn't always jedi)

@Cygnus, Another purpose of the armor is to provide a platform for support systems (regeneration), more layers, more upgrade room, movement will be restricted, but this will be compensated for by having more in-armor gadgetry than Q-branch.

Cygnus Q'ol
01-20-2006, 10:04 AM
Yeah REDJOHNNYMIKE, I would enjoy the support systems that would allow for upgrages and such. I wouldn't even mind the restrictive movement because of the compensation of in-armor goodies. (gimme, gimme, gimme).

But, if it's as ugly as the Jal-Shey or Zeison-Sha armor, what T'wilek dancer is gonna want to talk to me?

RobQel-Droma
01-20-2006, 10:31 AM
I wholeheartedly, but respectfully, disagree. I believe that this concept is quite feasible, makes great sense to me and I like it. However I fully understand that you are diametrically opposed to this. So be it.

I realize you like it- but I just don't see that it is feasible. Once you put armor "under" robes, you have force power restrictions, movement restrictions, etc. It becomes more trouble than what it is worth to try and have all these different layers. Combine Jedi Robes, however light, with light armor, and it gets to be pretty bulky, and restricting.

So, a combat suit with a jedi robe over it has worse flexibility than Mandalorian armor?

The JS and ZS don't fit what I want (or what CRed originally posted, "armor and"), they aren't armor with a robe over it.

Try this: get a set of medieval armor, put it on, and wear a bunch of clothes and blankets (robes) over it. Now try to move (or just imagine). Having multiple layers is not a good idea, since it does not make sense when you have those kind of combinations. To have it make more sense, you get all the restrictions I talked about earlier.

So let me get this straight RobQel-Droma. You believe that once the tunic/shirt is replaced with a light armor vest or suit underneath Jedi Robes then this no longer constitutes Jedi Robes, right?

Yes. Once you have armor all mixed up with the original robes, it is no longer a regular plain Jedi Robe. I never said you wanted the ZS/JS armor, I was just saying that that type of armor was probably the closest you will get to what you want. Ok, so instead of talking about this "layer" idea, which I have already explained my reasons for not liking it above, why not try and get some other ZS/JS-like armors that have a better look?

JediMaster12
01-20-2006, 11:17 AM
A voice of reason, yes. I can see Rob's point on the resrictions. As I said before, I tend to stick to Jedi robes. I thought they looked cool and forced me to think defensively when dealing with multiple enemies.

REDJOHNNYMIKE
01-21-2006, 01:35 AM
@Rob, Some knights did wear clothing over their armor, wether to show their personal symbols, distinguish between combatants, etc.
And the situation you describe is the most extreme (the equivalent to wearing Revan's Robes over Mandalore's suit) you could easily layer a jedi robe over light armor,
light armor (going by the skins and models) is pretty much a bulletproof vest over heavy duty clothes (think police) A jedi robe over that wouldn't add that much restriction.
And those restrictions are offset by bonuses unique to each item and your chosen upgrades.

lukeiamyourdad
01-21-2006, 03:02 AM
Try this: get a set of medieval armor, put it on, and wear a bunch of clothes and blankets (robes) over it. Now try to move (or just imagine). Having multiple layers is not a good idea, since it does not make sense when you have those kind of combinations. To have it make more sense, you get all the restrictions I talked about earlier.

Actually your comparison made no sense. Under the plates, they often wear chain mail and under that some sort of light shirt.
By the way, those things are actually insanely flexible. Well, not insanely, but a lot more then you think.

This is not a bad idea. I think some people focus too much on the possible combination of stats between the armor and the robe, which doesn't have to even exist.
It could be nothing more the aesthetic.

The other very feasible possibility is two different slots, one for armor, one for cloak. This actually would fulfil many people's demand.
You could then have the Jedi Robe without the cloak without creating a new type of armor and have regular armor with a cloak.

Rob- How is the layer system less realistic then what we currently have? To be realistic, I'd have to run naked without any kind of armor on Tatooine because it's too hot. At least with layers, I'd actually be able to remove my bigger armor to cope with the heat, but I won't, because it's a game and I can't feel the heat ;)
Also, too complicated? I don't think adding one armor slot will make things complicated.
Lastly, what do you think crusaders and arabs wore when they fought in the harsh heat of the middle-east? Light silk shirts?

Ztalker
01-21-2006, 04:55 AM
Well, in most Starwars stories/films, people wear some kind of extra protection over their robes.
For Example: Anakin wears a leather band over his upper tunic. Not only does it look cool, i bet it would give some extra protection. Also, Obi Wan wears a mixture of Clone Trooper armor and Jedi Robes, for it's protection in the battle of Mullinist (Clone Wars cartoon). I think adding such robes would be very cool, and give your more the feeling of being a 'general.'

They should go with some penalties though. Force should be usable, since it's ridiculous someone would lose all his force powers because he/she wears an other armor. Penalties on movement speed and dexternity could be an idea...

RobQel-Droma
01-21-2006, 03:07 PM
Well, in most Starwars stories/films, people wear some kind of extra protection over their robes.
For Example: Anakin wears a leather band over his upper tunic.

He doesn't actually wear anything else than other Jedi wear. That "leather band" was just a part of the regular Jedi Robes, except made of synthetic material to offer more protection. Being able to change/wear different materials on your robes might be a good idea, but that really isn't what this is about.

Actually your comparison made no sense. Under the plates, they often wear chain mail and under that some sort of light shirt.
By the way, those things are actually insanely flexible. Well, not insanely, but a lot more then you think.

Sorry, probably not the best example. I'm just saying that layers present a lot of difficulties with movement, force powers, etc.

The other very feasible possibility is two different slots, one for armor, one for cloak. This actually would fulfil many people's demand.
You could then have the Jedi Robe without the cloak without creating a new type of armor and have regular armor with a cloak.

Rob- How is the layer system less realistic then what we currently have?

Here is what I am trying to say. Jedi Robes have no armor, that goes against what a Jedi Robe is made for. Armor with a cloak doesn't make it Jedi Robes, it is just a different armor. You guys keep talking about having layers with a Jedi Robe and a Light armor, that would seriously complicate things:

For one, think about all the different possible complications that one could put in all these different slots. Would they all make your character have unique looks depending on the combination? You would almost double or triple the amount of appearances that your character would be able to have. It would also complicate things because now their is two-three clothing spots, and to make it at all feasible, you would have to keep in mind all the different bonuses and penalties.

A cloak, one connected to some kind of light armor, is not some all powerful object that causes the armor to be "Jedi Robes", and therefore not force-restricting. This would make the armor even more force power restricting, and it would ultimately be an absolute pain to try and fight with it. Why not just wear heavy armor?

Not only that, you don't need all this to have these "armored robes." As I said before, you guys are making it waaaay too complicated. I am fine with having ZS/JS armor, or that stuff that you wanted Hai Wan: Jedi Robe-like armor, some kind of "Jedi Armor" that has, say, a light chest plate, guantlets, and so on. You don't have to have these ridiculous "layers" to have that. Just make some more armor types, that in bonuses and type are basically the ZS/JS stuff, but look more like what you want. Wouldn't that be better than adding all this unnecessary stuff?

lukeiamyourdad
01-21-2006, 03:27 PM
Here is what I am trying to say. Jedi Robes have no armor, that goes against what a Jedi Robe is made for. Armor with a cloak doesn't make it Jedi Robes, it is just a different armor. You guys keep talking about having layers with a Jedi Robe and a Light armor, that would seriously complicate things:

I think you misunderstand. All I can see from Hai Wan's example is that he wants some sort of ZS/JS but good looking and ressembling a Jedi Robe. Basically, a non-force restricting armor with a Jedi Cloak.

For one, think about all the different possible complications that one could put in all these different slots. Would they all make your character have unique looks depending on the combination? You would almost double or triple the amount of appearances that your character would be able to have.

Inherently bad because? You've just said what a lot of people wanted to hear. Better clothing customization.

It would also complicate things because now their is two-three clothing spots, and to make it at all feasible, you would have to keep in mind all the different bonuses and penalties.

Which is bad in an RPG? That's actually what you should be doing in an RPG. Keeping penalties and bonuses in mind. Besides, on your character screens, you have a quite easy to understand summary of the different bonuses and penalties.


A cloak, one connected to some kind of light armor, is not some all powerful object that causes the armor to be "Jedi Robes", and therefore not force-restricting. This would make the armor even more force power restricting, and it would ultimately be an absolute pain to try and fight with it. Why not just wear heavy armor?

Of course not, but one could say the same about the ZS/JS armors. Yet, they're all powerful objects and you have stated you were ok with those.


Not only that, you don't need all this to have these "armored robes." As I said before, you guys are making it waaaay too complicated. I am fine with having ZS/JS armor, or that stuff that you wanted Hai Wan: Jedi Robe-like armor, some kind of "Jedi Armor" that has, say, a light chest plate, guantlets, and so on. You don't have to have these ridiculous "layers" to have that. Just make some more armor types, that in bonuses and type are basically the ZS/JS stuff, but look more like what you want. Wouldn't that be better than adding all this unnecessary stuff?

Actually, your claims of complications make no sense. In fact, many RPGs do use many armor slots with great success.

I think you focus too much on the thought that an additionnal layer of clothing means more complication. Then I ask, where is actually the complication? Yes, you'd have to get a cloak to go with your armor and put it in your cloak slot. That's it.
How is it complicated? It doesn't even have to be a special Force cloak or anything.

I think your claims of overcomplication are based on absolutely nothing. Having different clothing layers is nothing new, increases customization and is very easily doable.

Char Ell
01-21-2006, 09:07 PM
Yes. Once you have armor all mixed up with the original robes, it is no longer a regular plain Jedi Robe.Congratulations to us! We are finally communicating. :)

OK. I can see the whole "you can't call it a Jedi Robe if it has armor" concept. I think calling it something like Jedi Battle Robes would introduce a degree of separation that should be sufficient to distinguish from the classic Jedi Robe. In fact that is what Colma Adawin calls his mod.
Combine Jedi Robes, however light, with light armor, and it gets to be pretty bulky, and restricting. I don't see this at all. In KotOR and TSL you equip the PC and NPC's with armor and they fight in it. Adding a Jedi cloak to the mix shouldn't really do anything at all in the way of restriction, except maybe get in the way sometimes with all their swishing around. If we're talking downright realism here then IMO Jedi shouldn't be fighting in the style of robes shown in TSL to begin with. But of course most like the way TSL robes look more than the KotOR robes. I know I did.

All I can see from Hai Wan's example is that he wants some sort of ZS/JS but good looking and ressembling a Jedi Robe. Basically, a non-force restricting armor with a Jedi Cloak.
Yep. That pretty much sums it up. :D
I envision having the two regular armor upgrade slots but no upgrade slots for the robe/cloak itself but the armor having some level of energy resistance built into it in consideration of lightsaber dueling and blaster attacks. And I'm not thinking medium or heavy armor for this (sorry REDJOHNNYMIKE). This definitely would have to remain light class armor or it loses realism for me. But maybe a max dexterity bonus of +6 or something like that but with no force restrictions. I really thought the +4 DEX bonus limit on the JS/ZS armor was a bit too restrictive.

So yeah CadmiumRED, I'm with you on this. If this battle robes concept made it into the next KotOR that would be suh-weet indeed! The devs did it with the force pike in TSL, right? Maybe, just maybe, they will do it here too.

REDJOHNNYMIKE
01-22-2006, 02:43 AM
One thing I'd like to see, that would decrease the need for a model of every outfit variation....seperate physics based clothes/robes (like on your G.I. Joe dolls), you could have a base model for the clothing/underwear layers, and attach a seperate robe/armor model to it (clipping would be a project) if you used a sizing system where medium robes cover light armor, heavy robes cover medium armor this could work, this would also make possible one of my previous suggestions about degradeable armor.

Robes would still retain their slots, so you can swap robes and or armor for different attributes, since all moddable items retain their upgrades (wether or not you have them equipped

Maybe force restriction should be dropped entirely, Vader can choke you through a life support suit, while fighting you with a saber, after suffering critical injuries, if armor cuts your connection to the force then a helmet which both PC's and Vader use would decrease it drastically, not to mention hampering the force sight power.
And even if armor were to be a force "insulator" if it actually does "flow through living things" you could use the the force in your body internal to the suit to "force heal" yourself, thereby providing at least one exception to the restriction rule.
I don't think you can look at it as detaching a load from a circuit and cutting current through it, otherwise the second any jedi put on armor they would start to experience what exile did. Also, why can you feel the force through a robe and not the clothing worn with armor, body armor doesn't cover you entirely.
IMHO armor restrictions should apply more to movement speed and actual combat dexterity than force connection.

Why can't I wear Armor, or a Jedi robe, or a robe over armor, or armored robes, or whatever I want?

I'm starting to suspect that Rob might be an OE modeler ;)

RedHawke
01-22-2006, 03:14 AM
^^^^
Well, about the 'No Force Powers in armor' rules, see... this is where you get holdovers from universal RPG systems, like D20.

In the core D&D Fantasy version armor gets in the way of Magic Users being able to cast their spells, it is an attempt to limit a 'Spell Caster' character somewhat for the sake of game balance.

Though there are armors like Elvish Chainmail that Magic users can wear to play an Armored Mage, the Zal Shey suits were added into TSL for this exact same reason.

Now when that system is adapted to sci-fi, where armors work differently, and so does the 'Magic' instead of having to adapt rules to the genre, they fit the genre to the rules, a common practice BTW... hence The Force is handled exactly like Magic, and Armor is as it is in the Fantasy setting, so there are as little changes as possible so people who have played one game using that system will adapt easily to the new game.

Many people lament that they want a system "exactly" befitting the movies, this just isn't possible, you have to nerf and re-arrange things from the source material to make a system playable and balanced.

I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong, this is just what was part of the process to create the RPG game system itself...

REDJOHNNYMIKE
01-22-2006, 03:37 AM
It just doesn't seem right, there should be restrictions from heavier armor, but it shouldn't affect the force (unless it is designed to block the force, I know there was a mask that was similar in concept)

RedHawke
01-22-2006, 03:41 AM
It just doesn't seem right, there should be restrictions from heavier armor, but it shouldn't affect the force (unless it is designed to block the force, I know there was a mask that was similar in concept)
It is a correct rule according to the rules of that game system... so this part will not be changed, it is needed for game balance, simple as that.

Edit: Besides it is a simple 2da edit to remove it anyway! ;)

JediMaster12
01-23-2006, 11:54 AM
You know, this whole thing about armour and robes can depress a person but as I've stated before I prefer robes for the PC and when I jedified my NPCs I gave them robes too. I'm not saying that armour is bad, quite the opposite. I think it is quite useful if you look at the dexterity and defense bonus and attack modifiers. To have armour with a cloak doesn't sound right to me, in fact I looked at the JalShay armour and thought it looked ugly. I would probably have been more impressed if it looked more samurai-like if that was what the devs were attempting.

@Rob How's Bandomeer?

@RedHawke, your mod for TSL's Exile's general uniform pack is way cool!:)

Steve-O Kreesh
01-23-2006, 10:44 PM
I agree with JediMaster12, I never knew the debate over robes or armor would be so heated. Everyone take a breath and repeat after me,

"There is no emotion, there is peace."

Everyone feel better? :)

Now, combining armor and robes together is not a new idea for Star Wars. If anyone watched Clone Wars V2, you will notice that both Anakin and Obi-Wan wear robes with some armor pieces incorporated in the robes. Something similar to those would be nice in kotor3.

sidenote: Obi-Wan wore clone armor in V1 and it looked bada$$!!!

JediMaster12
01-24-2006, 02:04 PM
Yes I use that first part of the Jedi Code to calm myself. Thank you Steve-O-Kreesh.
As I've said before, in my badly typed previous post, armour isn't a bad thing. I've never seen Clone Wars V2 or V2 so I'll take your word on that. I think what really gets people is the D20 engine rules and restrictions. Heck maybe they could improve on the appearance of the Jal-Shey armour and make it look more appealing.

Shem
01-25-2006, 09:39 PM
Would it be possible if armor and robes can be worn at the same time? Look at Ulic Qel-Droma before he was a Sith, he wore armor/robes on him, and he looked REALLY cool. Maybe it might not be for KOTOR III, but I'd love to see this happen in future KOTOR games. What do you all think of this idea?

Kinda like Obi-Wan's armor in the Clone Wars cartoons.

RobQel-Droma
01-26-2006, 04:03 PM
^I don't exactly feel that a Clone Wars cartoon has much relevance on this, though. Just my opinion.

Actually your comparison made no sense.
Actually, your claims of complications make no sense.

Has anything I've said made any sense? :xp: It made sense to me, actually. I don't really care if other RPGs do this kind of thing, KOTOR hasn't so far. It doesn't make sense to completely change the clothing part.

I feel like the layer thing should be in another thread. It has nothing to do with "Jedi Battle Robes."

Inherently bad because? You've just said what a lot of people wanted to hear. Better clothing customization.

At the expense of the story? Do you want another TSL? Not that it was a bad game, but do you want to have the devs spend all this time incorporating this into K3, at having a crappy and unfinished story?

I think you focus too much on the thought that an additionnal layer of clothing means more complication. Then I ask, where is actually the complication? Yes, you'd have to get a cloak to go with your armor and put it in your cloak slot. That's it.
How is it complicated? It doesn't even have to be a special Force cloak or anything.

I think your claims of overcomplication are based on absolutely nothing. Having different clothing layers is nothing new, increases customization and is very easily doable.

*sigh* But WHY? Why are you not content with an armor with the same basic stats as the ZS/JS armor, yet looking better? You don't even have to have one layer for a cloak, and another for armor; Why not just combine them? I wasn't saying that a cloak with armor was bad, I was talking about this "wearing armor under full Jedi Robes." If you have armor with a cloak, why not just create some new armors? Don't go in this round-about way to get it.

I think I've pretty much stated all my views and opinions. I'm not going to argue with all this "actually, your whatever made no sense." :rolleyes: If you don't understand what I am trying to say, I can't do anything about it. It's not like we are going to change the game.

lukeiamyourdad
01-26-2006, 05:44 PM
Has anything I've said made any sense? :xp: It made sense to me, actually. I don't really care if other RPGs do this kind of thing, KOTOR hasn't so far. It doesn't make sense to completely change the clothing part.

Doesn't completely change everything. Only adds to it actually.


At the expense of the story? Do you want another TSL? Not that it was a bad game, but do you want to have the devs spend all this time incorporating this into K3, at having a crappy and unfinished story?

You're right. That is why adding vehicle transportation is very bad...



*sigh* But WHY? Why are you not content with an armor with the same basic stats as the ZS/JS armor, yet looking better?

Because I'd like to create my own clothing combinations?


You don't even have to have one layer for a cloak, and another for armor; Why not just combine them? I wasn't saying that a cloak with armor was bad, I was talking about this "wearing armor under full Jedi Robes." If you have armor with a cloak, why not just create some new armors? Don't go in this round-about way to get it.

That's because it might not turn out good looking. Personnal combinations of cloaks and armor would increase replayability.

I think I've pretty much stated all my views and opinions. I'm not going to argue with all this "actually, your whatever made no sense." :rolleyes: If you don't understand what I am trying to say, I can't do anything about it. It's not like we are going to change the game.

Actually, when I used that, it really doesn't make sense since you base your arguments on...errr pretty baseless accusations of overcomplication of the armor/clothing system.

Also, I'd advise you to re-read a whole post before quoting me totally out of context.

REDJOHNNYMIKE
01-27-2006, 01:21 AM
@RQD, So it is established in SW and RPGs, and it can't be applied to Kotor just because it hasn't yet???
For KIII maybe they'll go back and fix their greivous mistakes such as "influence" or expanded item creation/upgrades ;)

"I feel like the layer thing should be in another thread. It has nothing to do with "Jedi Battle Robes."___RQD

"Would it be possible if armor and robes can be worn at the same time?"___CadmiumR, thread topic.

Layering of clothing is a legitimate way of wearing multiple pieces of clothing at the same time ;)

"at the expense of the story"

I'm confused...When did all the writers start getting forced into modeling???
The story wasn't crappy, it was simply unfinished, given time (LA rushed it, remember?) the story would've been completed and possibly better features added.
The problem isn't with having to choose between story or gameplay, the problem is that the developer wasn't given enough time to implement all plans.

"content...ZS/JS"

I'm in agreement with LIAYD's response, it's the same reason I don't want to go into a shop and have all my options limited to sabers with locked crystals, an example....
I find three armor sets in the first level...
1. Your way: I find one light combat suit with a light robe over it, one heavy armor with a jedi robe, and one jedi master robe.
I have three options when I'm considering which items affect my characters strengths and weaknesses.
2. Multi-Layering: I find A. one light combat suit with B. one light robe, C. one heavy armor with D. one jedi robe, and E. one master robe.
My options...
AB
AD
AE
CB
CD
CE

Over time I gain more flexibility then I would've ever dreamed of using one-piece suits.

RobQel-Droma
01-27-2006, 06:16 PM
^I'm not saying that any new improvements are not good. I just don't like this idea, and think that the clothing options are good as they are without trying to implement this.

I'm confused...When did all the writers start getting forced into modeling???
The story wasn't crappy, it was simply unfinished, given time (LA rushed it, remember?) the story would've been completed and possibly better features added.

Say it however you want. All right, unfinished story, that is really what I meant by "crappy." But you still stated the problem- time. How long is the company going to get?

I don't see this at all. In KotOR and TSL you equip the PC and NPC's with armor and they fight in it. Adding a Jedi cloak to the mix shouldn't really do anything at all in the way of restriction

Argh.... I feel like we are talking in two different languages here. I'll try and communicate what I mean- I am not talking about cloak+armor, I am talking about robes+armor. I got the impression you meant having armor under full Jedi Robes. I don't have a problem with light armor with a cape; It's essentially ZS/JS stuff.

But why do you need layers to do this? What is the point of attaching a cloak to heavy armor? It isn't going to do anything, it doesn't make it not have force power restrictions, it just means you have a blanket hanging off your shoulders and swishing around.

Your right. Thats why adding Vehicle Transportation is a bad idea

Right. Like that compares in scale anywhere close to this. That has nothing to do with what we are discussing...

Char Ell
01-27-2006, 08:10 PM
Argh.... I feel like we are talking in two different languages here. Uh-oh. That's not good. I often wonder why it's so hard for people to clearly communicate with each other. Haven't come up with an all-encompassing reason though...
I'll try and communicate what I mean- I am not talking about cloak+armor, I am talking about robes+armor. I got the impression you meant having armor under full Jedi Robes. I don't have a problem with light armor with a cape; It's essentially ZS/JS stuff.
If I understand you correctly I think we're just tripping over the choice of words here and probably don't have much in the way of disagreement at this point. I could be wrong though. :D

Please allow me to clarify. As I see it, the Jedi Robe as depicted in TSL has at least two layers, the outer layer (cloak w/ hood, hereafter simply referred to as cloak) and the inner layer (tunic/pants). While I normally don't like to support my KotOR arguments with examples from the movies, I think (since the TSL robes seem to have been patterned after the ones in the movies) the SW prequels demonstrate this two-layer concept when Anakin, Obi-Wan, Qui-Gonn Jinn, and Darth Maul shed their outer layer (cloak) before they earnestly engage in lightsaber combat, leaving them with just the tunic/pants.
So what I would like to see is a variation of this Jedi robe, calling it something besides Jedi Robes if you want, where the inner layer of tunic and pants is replaced with a light armored vest, gauntlets, and greaves. But the outer layer (cloak) would still be worn over it since the cloak is readily identified with the Jedi. The JS/ZS armors really don't offer that sort of look.

You seem to be struggling with the idea of layers but I submit that Jedi Robes are already "layered" as they are in game. It's just the game doesn't allow upgrades to the outer layer (cloak). Even with the Jedi Battle Robes concept I think it only logical that the user would still be wearing pants and an undershirt underneath the light armor. So at that point it would be three layers, right? I just think that the only upgradeable part of the outfit should be the armor itself. So when I use the term armor+robes I should instead say armor+cloak as the cloak is what you seem to associate with the outer layer. I was thinking that cloak and robes were interchangeable terms but I see that you don't look at it that way. This is just a matter of semantics. ;)

As far as the multiple layers of stuff that REDJOHNNYMIKE and LIAYD refer to I think they already exist to a large extent. But in my view those things are already represented by the gloves, belt, headgear, etc. I really don't want to get down to managing all the clothing layers as I felt I spent too much time as it was with the various upgrades in TSL trying to figure out what items I could use what upgrades on. Adding more things to manage doesn't really appeal to me at this point.

lukeiamyourdad
01-27-2006, 09:13 PM
Right. Like that compares in scale anywhere close to this. That has nothing to do with what we are discussing...

It has. You came up with the time consumption for a concept that could take away precious developper time argument. It only shows you being inconsistent in your positions.

At the expense of the story? Do you want another TSL? Not that it was a bad game, but do you want to have the devs spend all this time incorporating this into K3, at having a crappy and unfinished story?

An easy "get-out-of-trouble" argument. It might work on the random novie forummite but not on me. It seems to be used as an instant win argument, preying on the feelings of resentment towards TSL's unfinished stoy and plotholes.
It goes around the actual argument and ends up doing nothing.
Why?
That argument has many flaws. First, it assumes that the developpers will be crunched on time, which might not be the case.
Second, it assumes that they'll spend a humongous amount of time on a new clothing/armor system at the expense of everything else. A rather false assumption as the time they'd spend on it wouldn't be much more then the time they'd spend on facial customization, which is wildly popular.
Finally, it simply stumbles on every possible gameplay amelioration. In other words, any good gameplay elements that can be added gets nuked because there's "not enough time". Basically, instead of being an actual video game with good gameplay, that argument usually wants to make it a text RPG.

I really don't want to get down to managing all the clothing layers as I felt I spent too much time as it was with the various upgrades in TSL trying to figure out what items I could use what upgrades on. Adding more things to manage doesn't really appeal to me at this point.

Different layers doesn't mean more upgrades for each layers. After all, armbands, headgear and belts didn't have upgrades.
Additionnal layers could have no upgrade possibilities.

Add to that, with different layers, you could have a multitude of combos possible. I know a lot of people would like to have a Jedi tunic in the game. It would introduce the tunic without having to create a seperate armor type or look.

I think the terms "layers" can get people confused and scared for who knows what. It's not supposed to be harder then putting an item on.
After all, one of the core concepts of the RPG is to customize your character.
It's actually one of the focus and normally isn't much more confusing or harder then a single armor slot.

REDJOHNNYMIKE
01-27-2006, 11:41 PM
IMHO each seperate equipable item should be upgradeable, even if that means weakening the upgrades such as power cells to balance the larger number of them.

With the exception of some larger and boss battles I always found item customization to be more entertaining than the actual combat, If I can go from spending an hour on my party's armor loadout to a well spent two hours then I'm all for it.

RobQel-Droma
01-28-2006, 01:58 PM
It has. You came up with the time consumption for a concept that could take away precious developper time argument. It only shows you being inconsistent in your positions.

Maybe I am misunderstanding (wouldn't be the first time in this thread), but I thought you wanted another clothing spot for a cloak of certain design. If so, say you have about six different cloaks- combine that to however many armors there are in the whole game. You just multiplied the amount of armor looks by six.

Now compare that to Vehicle Transportation. They really already did this, kind of, with swoop racing. Now just apply that to the other areas, change it a bit, and you have what I suggested. Sorry, but it just looks to me that VT pales in comparison to this layer idea.

But I'm not going to argue about which idea is the best, and most worth it. We were talking about layers. And a few questions about this: Would this work on all armors? I don't know about you, but I would puke if I saw a Jedi cloak hooked onto that red Bonadon armor that Carth wears in TSL.

An easy "get-out-of-trouble" argument. It might work on the random novie forummite but not on me. It seems to be used as an instant win argument, preying on the feelings of resentment towards TSL's unfinished stoy and plotholes.

Sorry, Master Forumite. I was not "nuking" this idea because "there is not enough time." I was talking about the priority level on this. And maybe your right, maybe it really has no point to the argument. I was trying to point out the complexity and amount of what will be changed. Like Hai Wan said:

I really don't want to get down to managing all the clothing layers as I felt I spent too much time as it was with the various upgrades in TSL trying to figure out what items I could use what upgrades on. Adding more things to manage doesn't really appeal to me at this point.

LIAYD, you might want to read his post again. He was not saying that it would be complicated because of the upgrades for each layer. Even if there wasn't, it would be very complex like he said. It is already hard enough to go through all the different armors and upgrades, and figure out which one is upgraded with what- now you are adding other clothing spots that we have to keep track of also.

You seem to think this is adding. It isn't "adding", it is "changing." You are changing the clothing part of the game into something a bit more complex. A few people obviously don't want this to change; it obviously has done well for the past few games, and it doesn't need to be drastically changed like this into something totally different and complex. We need "change," yeah, but not necessarily the key parts of the game.

lukeiamyourdad
01-28-2006, 02:31 PM
Maybe I am misunderstanding (wouldn't be the first time in this thread), but I thought you wanted another clothing spot for a cloak of certain design. If so, say you have about six different cloaks- combine that to however many armors there are in the whole game. You just multiplied the amount of armor looks by six.

Indeed. Which means more customization and as far as I know, there's nothing wrong with that.

Now compare that to Vehicle Transportation. They really already did this, kind of, with swoop racing. Now just apply that to the other areas, change it a bit, and you have what I suggested. Sorry, but it just looks to me that VT pales in comparison to this layer idea.

But dude! It's so much work! Developper time man!


But I'm not going to argue about which idea is the best, and most worth it. We were talking about layers. And a few questions about this: Would this work on all armors? I don't know about you, but I would puke if I saw a Jedi cloak hooked onto that red Bonadon armor that Carth wears in TSL.

Then don't put a cloak on that.


Sorry, Master Forumite. I was not "nuking" this idea because "there is not enough time." I was talking about the priority level on this. And maybe your right, maybe it really has no point to the argument. I was trying to point out the complexity and amount of what will be changed.

And have not yet given a good logical argument as to how it would be actually complex.



LIAYD, you might want to read his post again. He was not saying that it would be complicated because of the upgrades for each layer. Even if there wasn't, it would be very complex like he said. It is already hard enough to go through all the different armors and upgrades, and figure out which one is upgraded with what- now you are adding other clothing spots that we have to keep track of also.

And that's supposed to be insanely complex how?
If one more slot can make it very complex then perhaps we should remove armor all together. I mean, let the developpers decide my character's clothing, so much hassle gone.

No, it is not a lot more complex, it isn't that harder to keep track off. Afterall, what is the point of an RPG if you do not take care of your character? Sure, going through the story but like I pointed out, why not just make a text RPG then?

You seem to think this is adding. It isn't "adding", it is "changing." You are changing the clothing part of the game into something a bit more complex.

Exactly. Keywords: a bit more. It also does add more customization by changing or better yet modifying an existing feature.

A few people obviously don't want this to change; it obviously has done well for the past few games, and it doesn't need to be drastically changed like this into something totally different and complex. We need "change," yeah, but not necessarily the key parts of the game.

Keywords: a few. Totally different? Partly yes. Complex? I don't think so.
Key part of the game? I thought this was rather visual and eye candy. Certainly not key part. At least I've heard none yet who dared to claim that adding one more clothing spot would destroy the KotOR experience, destroy the feel of the game.

Seriously dude, look for better arguments then "OMG! Change man! You're trying to change the core gameplay man!"
You're just trying to prey on feelings again.

RobQel-Droma
01-28-2006, 06:58 PM
But dude! It's so much work! Developper time man!

I hate it when people respond in ways that imply that I post and think like this.

Then don't put a cloak on that.

Then give an answer to that problem instead of making sarcastic remarks.

And that's supposed to be insanely complex how?
If one more slot can make it very complex then perhaps we should remove armor all together.

Take what I said earlier. Now start thinking about whatever bonuses those cloaks would add, and penalties, then what that would do to the armor, etc. Figure out how to combine a cloak and armor so that it doesn't look horrible, and then try and sort through all these in an upgrade or equip menu.

Maybe your mind is somehow superior to Hai Wan's and mine; Seems to me it is getting hard to keep track of and equip.

Keywords: a few. Totally different? Partly yes. Complex? I don't think so.
Key part of the game? I thought this was rather visual and eye candy. Certainly not key part. At least I've heard none yet who dared to claim that adding one more clothing spot would destroy the KotOR experience, destroy the feel of the game.

You seem to like to pick apart my sentences. Let me clarify myself in some better words:

I don't know how many people oppose this- certainly a few people in this thread do. Key part: perhaps I should say "major part". It is something that is used quite a bit. And I did not claim that this would destroy the KOTOR feel of the game- it would change it into something else.

Seriously dude, look for better arguments then "OMG! Change man! You're trying to change the core gameplay man!"
You're just trying to prey on feelings again.

I never said that, or implied that. I never used the term "core gameplay", and I do not have a problem with change in itself. I just have a problem with what this would change. I was not trying to "prey on feelings" again.

How about trying to argue with me without quoting things I never said or meant. I could pretty much argue like you are: "OMG! Feelings man! You're preying on feelings!"

Char Ell
01-28-2006, 08:53 PM
Maybe your mind is somehow superior to Hai Wan's and mine; Seems to me it is getting hard to keep track of and equip. Actually, what I'm having a hard time keeping track of in this thread is what the points of contention currently are. :D

IIRC, the thread started out as a question of the feasibility of combining robes with armor for the next KotOR.

I think RobQel-Droma is pretty much opposed to the inclusion of armor without force restrictions, unless it's along the lines of the Jal Shey/Zeison Sha armor. He is also opposed to the use of multiple layers, e.g. robes over armor, as he feels it would be bulky and restrictive, all while adding additional complexity to the game.

I believe lukeiamyourdad thinks the layers concept is sound and is in line with general RP philosophy, allowing the player a great deal of flexibility and creativity to choose armor/clothing and equipment. Also that allowing a high degree of customization would only be good for the game.

And I think REDJOHNNYMIKE wants to be able to go all out and have upgrades for all item types, not just armor, robes, weapons as well as not have much in the way of force restrictions if a force user elects to wear armor.

So if I got the above right, I'm not sure that anyone's positions on the matter are subject to change at this point. *shrug*

Oh yeah, BTW and FWIW, I do think LIAYD has a superb intellect although I'm not quite willing to concede superiority. :xp:

RobQel-Droma
01-28-2006, 09:55 PM
^I do agree with you on one thing: I've kind of lost the original point of this thread, and the views of some people. BTW, your list helped, Hai Wan. :)

lukeiamyourdad
01-28-2006, 10:26 PM
I hate it when people respond in ways that imply that I post and think like this.

You're right. I did imply that. You've brought up developper time though.

Then give an answer to that problem instead of making sarcastic remarks.

Sarcastic? How is not putting a cloak on so that the armor doesn't look bad sarcastic?


Take what I said earlier. Now start thinking about whatever bonuses those cloaks would add, and penalties, then what that would do to the armor, etc. Figure out how to combine a cloak and armor so that it doesn't look horrible, and then try and sort through all these in an upgrade or equip menu.

Actually, I never said that the cloak would have bonuses. Ever.
Also, you imply automatically that it might look horrible very often. However, whether it looks horrible or not is based on opinion, not fact.

In my mind, a cloak would give no bonuses. The armor underneath would. It's more aesthetic then anything.

About combining so that it looks good, how is that supposed to be difficult? You put the armor and cloak on and see what it looks like. End of story. If you don't like it, remove it, sell it to vendor.

Maybe your mind is somehow superior to Hai Wan's and mine; Seems to me it is getting hard to keep track of and equip.

Yeah, looking at the character summary screen is that hard.

Oh and if a cloak did have a bonus, what would it be? +2 armor? +15 fire resistance? Hardly hard to keep track of, unless you're that scared of numbers.



And I did not claim that this would destroy the KOTOR feel of the game- it would change it into something else.

How does that not imply negative feelings towards change? In how would it change the feeling of KotOR? Did the D20 system suddenly crumble and the story got screwed because one armor slot was added? Does adding a cloak remove lightsabers?


I never said that, or implied that. I never used the term "core gameplay",

Look at this quote from you:

A few people obviously don't want this to change; it obviously has done well for the past few games, and it doesn't need to be drastically changed like this into something totally different and complex. We need "change," yeah, but not necessarily the key parts of the game.

As far as I know, core gameplay and key parts are pretty close in meaning.

and I do not have a problem with change in itself. I just have a problem with what this would change. I was not trying to "prey on feelings" again.

Re-read this quote:
And I did not claim that this would destroy the KOTOR feel of the game- it would change it into something else.

Obviously, you know the general veteran forummite consensus of keeping the feel of the game.
You know it is such a big deal for veterans. We would do a jihad against core gameplay changes.

Thus first, you introduce the developper time argument with TSL's unfinished story. Obviously trying to use the resentment one might feel towards it.
Then you came up with the key parts (which is pretty much core gameplay) argument so that it could stir up an anti-change sentiment.

Note that this is my interpretation of your words. Perhaps you did it without thinking about it, but I do believe that was the purpose of those arguments.

How about trying to argue with me without quoting things I never said or meant.

I challenge you to point out where I actually quoted something you have not posted yourself. Everything I have quoted were posted by you.


I could pretty much argue like you are: "OMG! Feelings man! You're preying on feelings!"

That is indeed one of my argument. It was a relatively good attempt at discrediting your own arguments, which I explained earlier in the post.

I'd like to repeat again, where are the right arguments against a cloak + armor option?
Overcomplexity is out of the window as a cloak would bring maybe one more stat bonus or two at most. Anyone can keep track of such a small boost and I personally don't even care if there are bonuses. I mainly want the aesthetic side of a cloak on an armor.
Developper time too. It automatically implies that they will indeed have no time, which is a rather weird assumption right now.
Changing a key part is also a non-factor, since such a addition can hardly be considered a change to a key part. It would definitely not change much, only add a greater deal of customization.

As a conclusion to this rather long post, I'd like to thank Hai Wan for summarizing the issues at hand.

RobQel-Droma
01-28-2006, 11:37 PM
Just a couple things.

You're right. I did imply that.

Thank you very much. I'd like it if you didn't imply, because I don't.

Sarcastic? How is not putting a cloak on so that the armor doesn't look bad sarcastic?

Because it is the same as using this logic:
"Dude, there are several armors that don't work, the whole armor is just white, and it doesn't have any icon but a white square!"
"Well don't wear that armor, then."

You just completely side-stepped the issue without giving any solution to the problem.

Also, you imply automatically that it might look horrible very often. However, whether it looks horrible or not is based on opinion, not fact.

Hmm... Actually, I'd have to say that it is a fact that red Bonadon armor would look horrible with a cloak. :) I could name a few others, too, and I don't think that many would argue that the horror isn't fact.

But besides that, it would look stupid or unrealistic on some other armors, like ZS/JS armor- or on something like Atton's ribbed jacket, or Mira's ballistic mesh jacket. And that is a problem I have with it: If this happens, I sincerely doubt the devs are going to make this an option for those I just mentioned.

Note that this is my interpretation of your words. Perhaps you did it without thinking about it, but I do believe that was the purpose of those arguments.

I was not intending to "prey on feelings", or try and get you into a "jihad." I was just suggesting some things I thought might be issues.

As far as I know, core gameplay and key parts are pretty close in meaning.

Obviously I did not use the right choice of words (Haven't I said that before?). It must be me using not-so-well-chosen words and phrases that miscommunicate what I am trying to say. I concede, clothing is not really a "key part." If you notice one of my later posts, I used a different word for it. I was just trying to say that it is a element used often in KOTOR.

How does that not imply negative feelings towards change?

You seem to not understand that there is a another view other than "Dude! All change is bad!" and "Dude! All change is good!"

It is not that it changes something- it is about what it changes.

I'd like to thank Hai Wan for summarizing the issues at hand.

I don't believe it. I actually agree with you, for about the first time in this thread. :)

I could go through more, but really don't want to type any more long posts; not to mention that I feel like I'm not really getting anywhere. This might not even be in the game, and we're not in charge of deciding whether it's put in, so... Sometimes I just wonder if there is a point to this. So, whatever.

Just on a closing note, developer is spelled with one p. :D

lukeiamyourdad
01-29-2006, 12:21 AM
Because it is the same as using this logic:
"Dude, there are several armors that don't work, the whole armor is just white, and it doesn't have any icon but a white square!"
"Well don't wear that armor, then."

You just completely side-stepped the issue without giving any solution to the problem.

No, I didn't side-step anything. You're going to find a lot of armor ugly. Don't wear them that's all. How do you expect everyone to like every armor piece?

For example, I hate how most armors look on Mira so I use her regular jacket, no matter how crappy it is compared to some medium armors.
The same goes for Atton.
I just didn't use the armors.

Also, if the cloak adds no bonuses, what does it actually matter if you wear one or not? It becomes a nice aesthetic bonus.


Hmm... Actually, I'd have to say that it is a fact that red Bonadon armor would look horrible with a cloak. :)

I think it's a general consensus that the armor alone looks horrible. Period. Thus the developer do not design armors that fits everyone's taste.


But besides that, it would look stupid or unrealistic on some other armors, like ZS/JS armor- or on something like Atton's ribbed jacket, or Mira's ballistic mesh jacket. And that is a problem I have with it: If this happens, I sincerely doubt the devs are going to make this an option for those I just mentioned.

Indeed it would not look good on some armors. However, that is far from an issue to not include such an option. Thus why it's called customization. You don't have to use it if you don't want to.


I was not intending to "prey on feelings", or try and get you into a "jihad." I was just suggesting some things I thought might be issues.

Well, look for other actual issues. In a debate, you might get rammed into for coming up with wrong issues.

Obviously I did not use the right choice of words (Haven't I said that before?). It must be me using not-so-well-chosen words and phrases that miscommunicate what I am trying to say. I concede, clothing is not really a "key part." If you notice one of my later posts, I used a different word for it. I was just trying to say that it is a element used often in KOTOR.

True enough. So changing it will change the feel of KotOR how then?


You seem to not understand that there is a another view other than "Dude! All change is bad!" and "Dude! All change is good!"

It is not that it changes something- it is about what it changes.

True enough, if you quote that alone, it sounds like that.

However, it seems you like to quote out of context.
Full quote:
How does that not imply negative feelings towards change? In how would it change the feeling of KotOR? Did the D20 system suddenly crumble and the story got screwed because one armor slot was added? Does adding a cloak remove lightsabers?

It is really about one particular change. The wording was not the clearest I admit, but I think that reading the rest of the paragraph and the quote posted above said paragraph should lead one to conclude that I was talk about change on the subject at hand.

This might lead to a misunderstanding:

Then you came up with the key parts (which is pretty much core gameplay) argument so that it could stir up an anti-change sentiment.

However, this is on another subject. Perhaps there was some confusion.


I could go through more, but really don't want to type any more long posts; not to mention that I feel like I'm not really getting anywhere.

No debate here will ever take us anywhere.

This might not even be in the game, and we're not in charge of deciding whether it's put in, so... Sometimes I just wonder if there is a point to this. So, whatever.

There is no point to anything we post or do on these forums. Whenever there's a debate going, we just keep going for the sake of it.

And I personally enjoy a good fight once in a while :)


Just on a closing note, developer is spelled with one p. :D

Thanks for the tip ;) Then again, for a french speaking guy, my spelling isn't too.

REDJOHNNYMIKE
01-29-2006, 01:11 AM
@RQD
Complexity: Why can't it be made in a way that can be as complex as you want it?
You don't have to put a cloak over armor if you don't want the effects of balancing them. You don't have to equip upgrades to every available spot if you don't want to spend the time sorting through them.
You've said that story should be focused on more then item management. Do you want more planets than TSL had, do you want more NPCs than TSL had, do you want more quests than TSL had, do you want more detail to the plot than TSL had?
Those are some of the most important parts of the game, I want them taken to the next level, I also expect the same for item management and character customization.

"Dude...white armor"
That does not apply as it is a problem with the actual item files or lack thereof, it in no way applies to personal taste (which is the only meaning I can translate from your I would puke if Carth wore that comment).
Do you want a solution to programming bugs that haven't happened yet, or an effeminate guy to review all item possibilities and make sure you can't be seen in anything that would affect your social status??? (you could simply hire him to play with you and make sure that you don't wear anything hideous)
I for one think it would look good on mira's jacket, but that's just my opinion, carrying the same weight as your opinion, and both opinions become choices in their own item select screen with absolutely no impact on the other.
Some people just have different tastes, I'm pretty sure most high class clothing manufacturers would imitate your puking after seeing what I wear:D


@Hai Wan, You were close, Actually all I want is for KIII to completely revolutionize the next and subsequent generations of gaming and entertainment, and be the game that all others are weighed against for the next 30 years:)

@LIAYD, It did come of as sarcastic, but no less true;) If you don't like the Ubese Environmental suit then don't wear it:lol:

I do disagree with you, to a certain extent, on the cloak though, I think it still needs it's own bonuses as a unique item class.
If a system of layers is used, then each part must be able to be swapped while retaining it's "identity", So I can wear a a Jedi Tunic with a robe (or cloak) and then switch the tunic for armor while still wearing the robe and retaining some small attributes from it, and then get rid of the armor completely and and wear the cloak over basic clothing while still getting effective use out of the cloak's attributes.
There is nothing wrong with adding aesthetic only cloaks and items in addition to statistic based versions though:)

JediMaster12
01-30-2006, 05:01 PM
I guess we still have a discussion over this. The Jal Shay armour has a cloak and it doesn't restrict Force powers, good for someone who wants extra protect. Butt ugly to look at. I was thinking that the look could be improved on. The textures could be rearranged to look more like samuraii armour which I still think the devs were attempting at. On the other hand, upgradeable robes are cool too and they could add the option to have the hood up or down.

REDJOHNNYMIKE
01-31-2006, 01:23 AM
If they use seperate models for layers, that would make "hoodies" simpler, you could just make animations for the cloak instead of using an "up" and "down" model.

Char Ell
01-31-2006, 08:29 PM
I really see this whole thing as greater customization/choice versus increased administration/management. I like the idea of having the ability to add a cloak/cape as long as I don't have to worry about cape upgrades or something like that. Because knowing me I'll be trying all the different upgrades I could to see what cape upgrades work best with what armor upgrades and yet getting irritated with myself that I stopped playing the game to figure that out. Yeah, strange. I know. :giveup:
And I personally enjoy a good fight once in a while :) ***remembers Revan's real class debate***
Really? I would have never guessed... ;)
You were close, Actually all I want is for KIII to completely revolutionize the next and subsequent generations of gaming and entertainment, and be the game that all others are weighed against for the next 30 yearsYeah, RJM, I can see now how you would have such grand aspirations. My bad. Should I go back up and edit my post? :xp:

JediMaster12
02-01-2006, 11:55 AM
So Hai Wan would you stand with the idea that armour with a cloak is an option to see? Personally this whole discussion has me depressed over the technically and the rules of RPG. Still I say stick with what we got in TSL just try not to make it such an eyesore.

Char Ell
02-01-2006, 08:29 PM
So Hai Wan would you stand with the idea that armour with a cloak is an option to see? I believe I've made it abundantly clear in this thread that I like the light armor with a Jedi cloak concept, right? ;)
Personally this whole discussion has me depressed over the technically and the rules of RPG. Still I say stick with what we got in TSL just try not to make it such an eyesore.I hope you don't get too depressed over it. Really, because it's not worth it. It's just a bunch of us passionate KotOR fans debating the merits of mixing armor and clothing and to what extent, if any, the game should allow said mixing to occur. In the end, it will be the developers who make the decision on what ends up in the game. If they think enough people want something in particular and they feel they can work it in the game without too much problem then I'm sure they'll do it. If not, then there is always modding (hopefully).

JediMaster12
02-02-2006, 12:49 PM
Yeah you're right. I've actually had some fun with mods that others have come up with. I can see that it is just fans being passionate about it but don't turn it into a soap :p The light armour option is a good one and maybe we may see it in KOTOR 3