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View Full Version : Did Dooku know of the rule of two?


Char Ell
01-24-2006, 11:00 PM
I couldn't find any related threads on this forum within the past few months so my apologies if this has already been posted before.

Did Dooku know of the Sith rule of two? I find it hard to believe that he didn't but his actions in the movie seem to indicate that either he didn't know or he just wasn't bright enough to do anything about it.

First, in the Anakin v. Dooku duel at the end of AotC. Dooku slices Anakin's hand off and then force pushes Anakin across the room but then gives out a sigh, like maybe he regretted that he had to go the extreme of separating Anakin from one of his appendages.

Second, during the RotS duel in the observation tower, Dooku tells Anakin how he senses great fear in Anakin, how Anakin has hate and anger but doesn't use it. Then what happens? Anakin apparently starts tapping into that hate and anger and returns Dooku the favor and then some.

This just doesn't seem like behavior one might expect from a Sith who knew that he was #2 and that #1 was eyeing someone else to fill his spot. One would think that more reasonable behavior would be to eliminate the competition. But then one might ask how Dooku could not know, given how long he was a Jedi and the extensive exposure he would have had to Jedi/Sith history.

MachineCult
01-25-2006, 10:01 AM
He may not have known but your examples don't prove anything.

Alkonium
01-25-2006, 10:39 AM
I think Dooku had expected to make Anakin one of his disciples, much like Asajj Ventress was.

Char Ell
01-25-2006, 10:40 AM
I think Dooku had expected to make Anakin one of his disciples, much like Asajj Ventress was I agree that this is a distinct possibility. In AotC Dooku tried to enlist Obi-Wan Kenobi by telling him that a Sith Lord had taken control of the Senate so Dooku apparently felt that he would need aid to unseat Sidious. But then Dooku's actions in the duel with Anakin on the observation deck only make sense to me if he didn't know about the rule of two. Otherwise I would expect that Dooku knew his opportunity to make Anakin his disciple was lost as he couldn't very well try to sway Anakin to his side in front of Sidious.

He may not have known but your examples don't prove anything.:eyeraise: Eh? Your stating my examples don't prove anything doesn't prove anything to me.

You would need to take the time to explain why you can summarily dismiss what I've pointed out while noncommittally stating that Dooku may not have known about the Sith rule of two. In truth, I don't understand why you bothered to post if that was all you had to say... :¬:

MachineCult
01-25-2006, 11:14 AM
...Dooku may not have known about the Sith rule of two. In truth, I don't understand why you bothered to post if that was all you had to say... :¬:
Theres no way to actually know if he did know about the rule of two, you could say that all Sith know from their masters, on the other hand you could say that Sidious kept it from him so that it might be possible for him to find a new apprentice.
As for my comment on your examples, I just felt that they didn't prove anything and thought that you might have given more than #1. a misinterpreted sigh, and #2. Dooku merely taunting Anakin like Vader and the Emporer both did in ROTJ.
You can tell by the look of horror on Dookus face when Palpatine tells Anakin to kill him, that he did not expect it and therefore probably didn't know that Palpatine wanted to replace him with someone else, especially since he was the CIS leader during the critical point of the Clone Wars.

As I tried to say in my first post there isn't a way we can be sure that he knew or not, the fact that he was a Jedi might have given him access to information about the Sith in the archives, that another of Palpatines apprentices wouldn't have been able to find out.

Char Ell
01-25-2006, 09:10 PM
Theres no way to actually know if he did know about the rule of two Yes, I agree that there may very well be no way to really know unless one were to get an answer from George Lucas. However I also know that there are some hardcore SW fans who post on these forums and I thought that maybe there was something out there that an avid SW fan had seen that would better explain how Dooku got duped into the situation of losing his life at the hands of Anakin.
BTW, thanks for taking the time to post your thoughts on the matter much more extensively this time around. :thumbsup:
As for my comment on your examples, I just felt that they didn't prove anything and thought that you might have given more than #1. a misinterpreted sigh, and #2. Dooku merely taunting Anakin like Vader and the Emporer both did in ROTJ. Hmmm... How did you interpret Dooku's reaction after he sliced Anakin's hand off in AotC? While I don't recall exactly how Vader and the Emperor taunted Luke in ROTJ (I'll have to go back and watch) I noted that Dooku's taunting was more like a challenge to Anakin to draw on the dark side instead of taunting that he was better than Anakin and would be killing Anakin in short order.
You can tell by the look of horror on Dookus face when Palpatine tells Anakin to kill him, that he did not expect it and therefore probably didn't know that Palpatine wanted to replace him with someone else... Point taken. He looked surprised to me too when Palpatine told Anakin to kill him. So maybe I should have worded my question as, "How could Dooku not know of the Sith rule of two?"

The Source
01-25-2006, 09:14 PM
I couldn't find any related threads on this forum within the past few months so my apologies if this has already been posted before.

Did Dooku know of the Sith rule of two? I find it hard to believe that he didn't but his actions in the movie seem to indicate that either he didn't know or he just wasn't bright enough to do anything about it.

First, in the Anakin v. Dooku duel at the end of AotC. Dooku slices Anakin's hand off and then force pushes Anakin across the room but then gives out a sigh, like maybe he regretted that he had to go the extreme of separating Anakin from one of his appendages.

Second, during the RotS duel in the observation tower, Dooku tells Anakin how he senses great fear in Anakin, how Anakin has hate and anger but doesn't use it. Then what happens? Anakin apparently starts tapping into that hate and anger and returns Dooku the favor and then some.

This just doesn't seem like behavior one might expect from a Sith who knew that he was #2 and that #1 was eyeing someone else to fill his spot. One would think that more reasonable behavior would be to eliminate the competition. But then one might ask how Dooku could not know, given how long he was a Jedi and the extensive exposure he would have had to Jedi/Sith history.
Dooku could have been eyeing Anikan as a possible Apprentice for himself.

Darth_Terros
01-25-2006, 10:47 PM
Dooku knew about the rule and mentions it in the dark randevous novel when its not so late i'll dig out the book and post a qoute.

Commander Obi-Wan
01-25-2006, 10:48 PM
Dooku could have been eyeing Anikan as a possible Apprentice for himself.

Actually, it was Sidious who wanted to lure Anakin to the Dark Side.

El Sitherino
01-25-2006, 11:27 PM
Dooku was looking at Anakin, same as Vader at Luke.

Palpatine just kinda beat him to the punch. :(

Char Ell
01-26-2006, 01:47 AM
Dooku was looking at Anakin, same as Vader at Luke.

Palpatine just kinda beat him to the punch.
Yeah, he kinda did, no if's, and's or but's about it. ;)

Maybe Dooku was just caught up in his own plans to usurp Palpatine's power that he failed to see how Palpatine was setting him up. I have a hard time thinking Dooku was so blind but perhaps he was. It just seems to me that by the time he dueled Anakin in front of Palpatine he should have realized that it was the Rule of the Thunderdome: "Two men enter, one man leaves."

lord ignarn
01-26-2006, 07:14 AM
I believe that Palpatine just saw Dooku as a mere puppet, the prize he wanted was Anakin all the time. So he lets Dooku have some humble apprentices just to feed his hunger for power. And also Palpatine made sure that the apprentices weren“t too powerful.

As I see, Asaj Ventress just is used to try to drive Anakin to the dark side, as is depicted in Clone Wars“ first season. Palpatine“s efforts are focused on driving Anakin to the dark side and making him his apprentice, has he can sense that it would be a great sith.

MachineCult
01-26-2006, 11:18 AM
BTW, thanks for taking the time to post your thoughts on the matter much more extensively this time around. :thumbsup:
Not a problem.

Hmmm... How did you interpret Dooku's reaction after he sliced Anakin's hand off in AotC?
I think it was merely a sigh of pity, as if he thought that it was sad that they thought they could take him on.

While I don't recall exactly how Vader and the Emperor taunted Luke in ROTJ (I'll have to go back and watch) I noted that Dooku's taunting was more like a challenge to Anakin to draw on the dark side instead of taunting that he was better than Anakin and would be killing Anakin in short order.
Palpatine - "You want this, don't you? The hate is swelling in you now. Take your Jedi weapon. Use it. I am unarmed. Strike me down with it. Give in to your anger. With each passing moment you make yourself more my servant."

Vader - "Give yourself to the Dark Side. It is the only way you can save your friends. Yes, your thoughts betray you. Your feelings for them are strong. Especially for... sister. So, you have a twin sister. Your feelings have now betrayed her, too. Obi-Wan was wise to hide her from me. Now his failure is complete. If you will not turn to the Dark Side... then perhaps she will... "

Like you said, Vader and Palpatine challenging Luke to draw from the dark side, as Dooku challenged Anakin to draw from the dark side. Just the normal Sith thing to do.

"How could Dooku not know of the Sith rule of two?"
I have just realised that contrary to what I said, Dooku wouldn't have been able to find anything about the Sith rule of two in the Jedi Archives because the Jedi didn't know about it. Ki-Adi Mundi - "The Sith have been extinct for a millenia."
So the Sith rule of two is obviously something that only the Sith knew, and Palpatine didn't follow that rule exactly the same as previous Sith Lords, having had three (maybe more) apprentices.
I believe that Darth Sidious didn't tell Dooku about the rule of two.

Cercueil
01-26-2006, 11:59 AM
just want to add that it was very possible that dooku did know. Yoda and mace knew in phantom menace and I dont believe that type of information on the study of the Darth Bane would have been super secret information only found as a prize at the bottom of Jedi Crunch cerial.

Alkonium
01-26-2006, 12:11 PM
Here's something I thought of: Whether or not Dooku knew of the Rule of Two, people break the rules.

Darth_Terros
01-26-2006, 01:03 PM
HE KNOWS! its mentioned in Yoda:Dark rendezvous even ventress knows she says how they could join together kill sidious and then dooku could take her as an appprentice.

Commander Obi-Wan
01-26-2006, 01:58 PM
Dooku was looking at Anakin, same as Vader at Luke.

Palpatine just kinda beat him to the punch. :(

I stand corrected.

Here's something I thought of: Whether or not Dooku knew of the Rule of Two, people break the rules.

Treachery is the way of the Sith.

The Source
01-26-2006, 04:29 PM
I think that Dooku saw Anikan as a possible Apprentice. Like all Sith, Palpatine also looked at him in this manner. Palpatine probally found it easier to manipulate Anikan, and he probally knew that Dooku was ready to betray him.

Of course Dooku knew about the 'Only Two' rule. One Master and One Apprentice. Since Dooku was an Apprentice, he was probally looking at Anikan as his Apprentice. Together they could over throw Palpatine. What surprised Dooku was that Palpatine took advantage of hisown relationship with Anikan, and he had the same thought process.

Dooku was looking to become a Master, and Palpatine wanted a nieve Apprentice. Return of the Jedi was a reflection of this as well. Palpatine knew that Vader was getting stronger, and he saw Luke as a way for himself to gain more power... Young, nieve, and willing to submit to the Emporer's will. Unfortuately for the Emporer, Luke saw this taking place, and helped his father end the Sith...

"Strike him down, and take your father's place at my side." - The Emporer.

When the Emporer said those lines, Anikan/Vader woke up to his Master's manipulation. At that point, everything became clear.

Char Ell
01-26-2006, 09:10 PM
Thanks to all who have shared their thoughts thus far. This was just one of those parts from RotS that I didn't find very believable.
I think that Dooku saw Anikan as a possible Apprentice. Like all Sith, Palpatine also looked at him in this manner. Palpatine probally found it easier to manipulate Anikan, and he probally knew that Dooku was ready to betray him. I don't see the logic behind the argument that Dooku wanted Anakin for his own apprentice. If so, then Dooku had a funny way of showing it when he cut off Anakin's hand. Sure Anakin really left Dooku no choice but why would Anakin want to become his apprentice after that? All Anakin would likely want is revenge and besides what opportunity would Dooku have to try to sway Anakin to his way of thinking? Dooku and Anakin were on opposite sides of a war. It's not like they saw each other on a daily basis. No, Palpatine was much better situated to tempt Anakin with the power of the dark side. Dooku really wasn't in a position to do so on his own.

I'm willing to consider now the possibility that Palpatine told Dooku to forget about the rule of two, that they needed to find other force sensitives to enlist in the cause of the Sith since there were so many Jedi arrayed against them. We all know how Palapatine can so convincingly lie through his teeth. In this situation I can also see Palpatine telling Dooku of the fear and anger in Anakin and that he was an ideal candidate for DS conversion. I can envision Dooku latching onto this idea because he thought that once he and Palpatine lured Anakin to the dark side he could then convince Anakin to help him kill Palpatine and become the Sith master. So to me this would explain why Dooku sighed after he hacked Anakin's lower arm off and why he was encouraging Anakin to use his fear and anger to become more powerful during their duel on the observation deck. Dooku thought that he and the Emperor would convert Anakin to the DS so there would be three of them. Then Dooku would later try to enlist Anakin's help in killing Dooku. By adding this unwritten element to the story I find the story more believable when Dooku shows his surprise after Palpatine tells Anakin to kill Dooku. In essence Dooku gambled he could outwit Sidious and as invariably happens when one deals with the devil, he lost.

Now I haven't read the RotS novelization or anything so perhaps there is something written that would offer a more substantive explanation. Absent that however I'm feeling pretty good with my current thoughts on how Dooku got duped, despite knowing of the Sith rule of two.

Treachery is the way of the Sith. And no doubt Sidious was one of, if not the, most cunning and treacherous Sith ever.

Kurgan
01-26-2006, 11:43 PM
He could always have assumed that they were "breaking the rules" and doing away with the rule of two, now that the Sith were coming back into their power and could do what they liked. The situation with Vader/Palpatine taking on Luke as an apprentice could have gone along similar lines as well. Or you could always say that both Sith thought they would be the one to take on the new apprentice (if he proved "worthy" and take out the other former Sith Lord).

arkodeon
01-28-2006, 12:50 PM
I have just realised that contrary to what I said, Dooku wouldn't have been able to find anything about the Sith rule of two in the Jedi Archives because the Jedi didn't know about it. Ki-Adi Mundi - "The Sith have been extinct for a millenia."
So the Sith rule of two is obviously something that only the Sith knew, and Palpatine didn't follow that rule exactly the same as previous Sith Lords, having had three (maybe more) apprentices.
I believe that Darth Sidious didn't tell Dooku about the rule of two.

Perhaps you forgot Yoda saying, in Phantom Menace (Or was it in AotC? ... Hm, can't remember)

Mace Windu: There's no doubt that this warrior was a Sith
Yoda: Only two there are, no more, no less. A Master and an Apprentice.
Ki-Adi-Mundi: But which was destroyed? The Master, or the Apprentice?

... atleast I think it was Ki-Adi-Mundi.


EDIT: Oh and, perhaps Dooku himself was plotting to overthrow Palpatine. Being someone's underdog is only attractive for so long. Anakin seemed like the perfect specimen.

MachineCult
01-28-2006, 03:12 PM
All I knew about Dooku is that he wasn't the best apprenice Sidious had ever had. I do now remember what Yoda said (it was Mace who asked which one was destroyed).
It is contradictory, Ki-adi-Mundi said that the Sith were extinct, but it seems that Yoda knew that they weren't and didn't say anything.
So i can only conclude that, either only the highest members of the order knew the Sith still existed, or something else happened to do with the Jedi and Sith after Bane that I don't know about.

arkodeon
01-28-2006, 08:01 PM
I don't think any of the Jedi knew they were ALIVE now, but I believe Yoda, and possibly Jocasta Nu, knew about the existence of the old Rule of Two through the Sith Holocron. It seems that Mace Windu knew a little more about the Sith, as well.

Who knows. XD

Kurgan
01-28-2006, 08:18 PM
The Jedi seem to have had a knowledge gap about the Sith. If they hadn't encountered any for 1,000 years, who's to say that the Sith hadn't changed any since then? The Jedi were wrong about them after all, thinking that they were "Extinct." Somebody that's extinct can't exactly have an evolving tradition can they? It's a miracle that the rule of two was still in effect!

On the other hand, wasn't the Rule of Two instated after the apparent demise of the Sith Order? If so, how did the Jedi know about it? Did Yoda find some old Sith Holocron right before they "disappeared" and kept it for curiosity's sake? But anyway, the only thing keeping the Rule of Two was tradition. There's only two Sith. They could just up one day and say "you know this rule we have? Yeah. Screw it! Okay!" ;)

Somehow through the Force Sideous was able to hide out right under their noses. They only "discovered" that the Sith were alive when they had one fo their members (Qui Gon) attacked by them. Then they were forced to re-evaluate their understanding of the Sith Order's fate....

And yes, unless Yoda kept it a secret, I would think that Dooku would have heard of the "rule of two" from the Jedi unless he had already left the Order before the discovery of Darth Maul (the Jedi never learned his name of course). As a Sith he surely would have known about it. Even if Sideous never told him, he would have heard it from the Jedi, surely.

MachineCult
01-30-2006, 07:22 PM
Did George Lucas create all these inconsistencies himself so that his fans would have something to talk about?

LordSerion
06-29-2008, 06:24 PM
Bane installed the RoT after he had learned everything from the Holocron of Darth Revan - in order to do so, he had to wipe every other Sith out with the Thought Bomb technique, that he learned from the Holocron as well. Bane destroyed Revan's Holocron after he learned everything from it.

The Jedi had many other Sith Holocrons in their possession - but only Masters had access to them. Yoda definitely knew about the RoT, so it's possible that one of the Holocrons had some info on them. Anyway, when he became a Jedi, it was maximum a few centuries after the Ruusan battles, so he may have known more about tha era better.

Dooku obviously didn't know about it, othervise he wouldn't have left Anakin alive on Geonosis, or would have killed him outright on the Invisible Hand.

HK-42
07-02-2008, 12:56 AM
ok i know you had the answer but please dont post in a 2 year old thread:lol:

Juno Eclipse
08-15-2008, 12:48 PM
Sidious just told Tyrannus that Anikan would be trained as a dark jedi like the apprentice in the Force Unleashed. Not a Jedi, but not Sith either....

Maphisto86
08-16-2008, 02:29 AM
Dooku obviously didn't know about it, othervise he wouldn't have left Anakin alive on Geonosis, or would have killed him outright on the Invisible Hand.

I do not see the connection you make between Count Dooku's knowledge of the Rule of Two and him not killing Anakin. He actually did attempt to kill both Skywalker and his master at the end of the battle with Yoda.

According to most EU sources, Dooku was well aware of the Rule of Two but both he and Darth Sidious where willing to "push the envelope" by recruiting dark side users as Dark Jedi. These acolytes that served under Count Dooku where taught some skills in the Force as well as lightsaber combat but nothing in detail about the ancient knowledge of the Sith.

So technically, they where not Dooku's Sith apprentices and could have easily been destroyed had they rebelled. I am sure however that the Count was "grooming" some of his acolytes to become his own Sith apprentice, such as Asajj Ventress and Sora Bulq. When or if the time came when Sidious was dead, then Dooku could become the Sith Master and have an apprentice already under his wing.

Henz
10-13-2008, 11:54 AM
I never saw Dooku as an effective Sith, he's more of a power-hungy fallen Jedi, and a very persuassive recruiter. He was a perfect pawn for Palpatine at the time, as he could easily rally together the forces needed to start the Clone Wars.
He was described as a "political idealist, not a murderer", and I think that is actually truer than it was intended to be. I think he showed genuine regret when he failed to sway Obi and Anakin in AotC. Dooku was so busy gathering partners that he was completely blind to the possibility that he'd be replaced.

FinlandGirl
11-06-2008, 11:57 PM
Wish I did...