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RobQel-Droma
02-01-2006, 01:06 AM
Found this on Star Wars Wikicities, something I haven't seen before. Kind of interesting:

There is some debate whether Kae is Kreia. They do indeed have something in common—they were both female Jedi Masters, both taught Revan, and both were exiled from the Order. Evidence put forward by supporters of this theory includes the fact that both Kae and Kreia are referenced as being Revan's first master and Atris' exclamation "Kreia? That is not her name". However, Kae is said to be exiled because of the birth of her child, and Kreia to be exiled for Revan's fall. As for Atris saying "Kreia? That is not her name," it may not mean her name is Arren Kae, but that her name is Darth Traya. Thus speculation on the subject is ongoing.

And then the other one on Kreia's page:

There is an ongoing dispute as to whether the Jedi Arren Kae and Kreia are the same person. Evidence in the game indicates that both Kae and Kreia were both Revan's first and last master. Additionally, Kae was also exiled from the Order.

Furthermore, their names bear a distinct similarity. Kreia's name is pronounced as if it were an amalgam of the names "Kae" and "Traya." This is possibly in keeping with the character's personality. Given that she turned her back on both the Jedi Council and the Sith, instead embracing the Gray Philosophy, it is possible she combined her names to create a new one, much in the same way she combined both Light and Dark Side knowledges of the Force. The name similarities could, on the other hand, be striking coincidences.

Beyond etymology, however, there is also the confusion surrounding the events of Kae's death (no body was discovered) that help to fuel this argument, as well as a statement made to Kreia by Master Kavar "I thought you died in the Mandalorian Wars" towards the end of the game, when she is recognized by the assembled council. While this argument is ongoing, no one can conclusively prove their case, so it remains in the realm of speculation at this time.

Any thoughts?

CountVerilucus
02-01-2006, 01:15 AM
I don't want to know. If Handmaiden is really a spawn of Kreia then i will be disturbed, and disappointed.

RobQel-Droma
02-01-2006, 01:19 AM
It is an interesting idea, though. Maybe it might be resolved in KOTOR 3, if Brianna is in the game.

But I keep having recurring visions of a female Darth Vader shouting, "No, Brianna. I am your mother!" :xp:

Emperor Devon
02-01-2006, 01:34 AM
I don't think so. If Obsidian wanted Kreia to be the Handmaiden's mother, they would've stated it directly somewhere in the game, and the Handmaiden says her mother died on Malachor V.

RobQel-Droma
02-01-2006, 01:37 AM
I doubt that. I don't think that there was a need for them to come right out and say "Oh by the way, I'm your mother!" As for her mother dying thing, how could she know, since she wasn't there? Besides, it says in my original post that the body was never found.

Char Ell
02-01-2006, 09:32 AM
I would be very surprised if Kreia was the Handmaiden's mother. It doesn't make sense to me. But of course, if Kreia was Handmaiden's mother then it would be just one more reason why Kreia tells a male Exile to avoid mating with her, heh-heh. But seriously, wouldn't there be something more between Kreia and the Handmaiden if the Handmaiden was Kreia's daughter?
There is some debate whether Kae is Kreia. They do indeed have something in common—they were both female Jedi Masters, both taught Revan, and both were exiled from the Order.I never got anything from the game where it stated that Arren Kae, the Handmaiden's mother, trained Revan. Also I searched thru the dialog files and found only 3 references to Arren and all 3 were referring to her as the Handmaiden's mother but nothing was said about her teaching Revan. I would need to see a verifiable game reference before I would even begin to accept this idea as fact.

And besides, Handmaiden and Kreia sure don't look anything alike. Someone needs to do one of those computer simulated age progressions on the Handmaiden to see what she would look like in another 30-40 years. I feel confident Handmaiden would still be better looking than Kreia. :smirk2:

Cygnus Q'ol
02-01-2006, 10:07 AM
Nice stretch, but I don't think so.

Why would you have something as intriguing as Mom and daughter meeting up, even sharing the same ship, and it not be addressed?

I believe if that were the case, we'd have had some reference or a sub-plot or something.

RobQel-Droma
02-01-2006, 11:09 AM
Cygnus and Hai Wan: Why do you (and the others) think that for some reason it would have to be adressed in the game? Maybe the devs were thinking about this, but didn't put it in, and just left it to be speculated. But there is no need (as I said before) that there would have to be something in the game about it. In fact, I would be suprised if Kreia did reveal it. ("Bye, I'm off to the Trayus Academy, Oh, by the way I'm your mother Handmaiden.") I just don't see her doing that.

I never got anything from the game where it stated that Arren Kae, the Handmaiden's mother, trained Revan. Also I searched thru the dialog files and found only 3 references to Arren and all 3 were referring to her as the Handmaiden's mother but nothing was said about her teaching Revan.

Well, seeing as I have seen numerous other sources saying that Arren tought Revan (even in the trivia thread here), I would think that that would be enough.

The Doctor
02-01-2006, 11:53 AM
Sorry Rob, but I doubt it. There's just not enough evidence to convince me.

Lantzen
02-01-2006, 12:13 PM
Im not really sure, i have thoght about it. But can't make up my mind, but i wouldent be suprised if she was Handmaiden mother.

Jae Onasi
02-01-2006, 12:39 PM
Lordy, I sure hope not.

RobQel-Droma
02-01-2006, 12:45 PM
Sorry Rob, but I doubt it. There's just not enough evidence to convince me.

But there is enough evidence to go the other way, too. I see a lot of striking similarities and coincidences there, and it is quite enough evidence it seems like. While it may not prove that they are the same person, you can't honestly say that there is no chance. You say why, I say "why not?"

Clone L68362
02-01-2006, 05:01 PM
Sources can say all they want, the didn't provide any proof. I don't think Kae taught Revan.

RobQel-Droma
02-01-2006, 05:15 PM
You guys don't get this. Let me explain: (please read closely). Assume she really is Arren, and the Jedi Masters knew. Now they never refer to her as "Kreia", or "Traya." They just say "she" and "her." Now, what if Arren really did train Revan. When you talk to Kreia later, she trained Revan, and if they are the same person, then so did Arren. But Arren is not mentioned because Kreia is no longer "Arren" any more - she is Kreia. So really, "Arren" and "Kreia" trained Revan. That would explain also why the Council never used her name, because she had two.

Clone L68362
02-01-2006, 05:48 PM
Well, unless we get proof that Kae trained Revan, there's no way to know if she's Kreia.

RobQel-Droma
02-01-2006, 05:54 PM
But if Kreia is Kae, then Kae trained Revan. So, if they are the same person, it all works out. I doubt you can find anything that will say she isn't.

Edit: Alright, sorry for double posting, but I felt like this was worth it. Look at this, I finally found one of these sources.

Well, the Disciple claims that Arren Kae was one of the masters that trained Revan at some point.

Incidentally, Stoffe also thinks Kreia = Arren. :) But anyways, if you want to PM stoffe and verify this, Stoffe can probably go through the dialogues and tell you where he says this. I'm guessing that Hai Wan only looked through Kreia's dialogue?

So, not only do you have what I said before (the "if Kreia is Kae and Kreia trained Revan then Kae trained Revan"), you have this. I think this will clear up these doubts.

Don't double post like that again Rob! Use the edit post feature. -RH

Shem
02-01-2006, 06:48 PM
I don't want to know. If Handmaiden is really a spawn of Kreia then i will be disturbed, and disappointed.
I couldn't agree more.

RobQel-Droma
02-01-2006, 08:04 PM
^Too late now. Now, thanks to me, you will probably have this in your mind every time you speak to the Handmaiden. :)

And for everyone else, if you didn't notice, I double-posted above JediShemL - I would recomend reading my post.

I combined the Double Post, please don't do that again Rob, especially only a couple hours apart, a day or so maby you can double post an update like that, only occasionaly mind you, but not within a few minutes/hours. Use the edit post feature. -RH

Char Ell
02-01-2006, 08:10 PM
First, I wish to clarify that I didn't state Kreia wasn't Arren Kae, only that I would be quite surprised if this was the case. I think it would be an interesting plot twist if it was though.

Can it be definitely stated that Arren Kae is Kreia? I don't see how but I agree that neither can it be stated that she definitely isn't Kreia. There just isn't enough factual information available to know, unless there's something in a KotOR novel or comic that I'm not aware of.

For those interested in where stoffe -mkb- posted the quote that RobQel-Droma referred to.
Link to stoffe -mkb- post about Arren Kae (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?p=1836863&singlepostcount=17)Well, the Disciple claims that Arren Kae was one of the masters that trained Revan at some point. Perhaps one reason why I haven't seen this in the game is because I haven't played the Exile as a female with the resulting consequence of not having the Disciple as a party member. :D

My only argument at this point is that there is no dialog in the game where it is stated that Arren Kae was one of Revan's masters. Of course, this contradicts what stoffe-mkb- says but neither did stoffe-mkb- offer a direct quote. However stoffe-mkb-'s statement does make me question whether or not I was searching correctly so I'll do another search on the dialog files when I get home. I used tk102's FindRefs Utility to search all .dlg and .tlk files for the word "arren" I only came up with three references, two in Kreia's .dlg and one in Handmaiden's and all three were having to do with Arren Kae being the Handmaiden's mother.

FACT: Kreia was one of Revan's masters.
FACT: Arren Kae was the Handmaiden's mother.
HYPOTHESIS 1: Kreia and Arren Kae are the same person
HYPOTHESIS 2: Arren Kae was also one of Revan's masters

If someone can offer solid evidence that makes hypothesis 1 true then hypothesis 2 automatically will become true. At this point I don't know anything that can prove or disprove hypothesis 1. My only argument is that there is nothing in the game that supports hypothesis 2 although IIRC Kreia does state that Arren Kae was a master. I'll have to post the dialog quotes when I get home.

Oh yes RobQel-Droma, I'm not going to PM stoffe-mkb- about this. If stoffe wants to post on the thread then I'm sure stoffe will. ;)

EDIT:
She was a Jedi, her name was Arren Kae.
I knew her mother. She was a Jedi Knight - a master, named {ERIN}Arren Kae.
The Force flows strongly in the blood of those born from Force Sensitives. I doubt that Arren was any different. If the servant of Atris is of her blood, then the potential lies within her.

Clone L68362
02-01-2006, 08:26 PM
Well, it seems very possible now. Too much to be one big accident...I think something else is going on...

Char Ell
02-02-2006, 12:46 AM
Well, I searched for instances of 'kae' in the dialog files and found the statements by Disciple that stoffe-mkb- referred to in the trivia thread. Very interesting. Things that make you go hmmm...
Spoilerizing for those who may not want to know. :brow:
All the following were taken from disciple.dlg
Entry 260 - Revan had many Masters. Zhar, Dorak, Master Kae before Kae left for the Wars. Towards the end of his training, he sought out many to learn techniques.
Entry 261 - It is said that he returned to his first master at the end of his training, in order to learn how he might best leave the order.
And then interestingly enough Kreia does something here, using her Jedi powers or something as she is quoted ::Jedi:: in entry 263. And then Disciple says:
Entry 265 - {A little confused}I do not recall who Revan's master was... strange.

Entry 275 - Master Zhar taught Malak - and Revan had many masters, including Zhar, Kae, and Dorak... and towards the end of the training, Revan sought out many other teachers to learn certain techniques.
Entry 276 - As a Padawan, Revan was trained by Master Kae, before she was exiled. Strange, I do not recall who Revan's master was after that.
My only argument at this point is that there is no dialog in the game where it is stated that Arren Kae was one of Revan's masters.Duly retracted. I believe I was correct in saying that there is no game dialog that states Arren Kae was one of Revan's masters but it does state that Master Kae was. Since in all probability Master Kae and Arren Kae are the same person I was... w-r-o-n-g.

Master Dakari
02-02-2006, 02:06 AM
I believe I was correct in saying that there is no game dialog that states Arren Kae was one of Revan's masters but it does state that Master Kae was.
Uhm, all you had to do - whether male or female - was speak with Mical in the Jedi Enclave. The line of dialogue in which he states, "Zhar, Dorak, Master Kae before Kae left for the Wars." and a few others are there.

We have had this ongoing discussion over at ObsidianEnt.com's forums for a while. I will quote some of the points I tried to stress, but if you want to read the entire thread, go to forums.ObsidianEnt.com (http://forums.obsidianent.com/index.php?showtopic=39224). But here's some cut-and-paste of some of the points I made of them being one and the same.

Quoted from ObsidianEnt.com

Also... one of the biggest arguments used to derail the Kreia=Kae Theory is the manner of exile they 'both' supposedly received.

The argument is:
Kreia was exiled because every student she trained was viewed as a failure. Every one disobeyed the council and followed Revan to war. And her most promisingpupil became the Dark Lord.
Kae was exiled because "the shame of her birth was revealed". What you learn is that she fell in love with the Echani general, Yusanis, and became pregnant. She eventually gave birth, and was exiled from the Jedi Order. She later died in the War and no remains were ever found.

The biggest problem with this base argument is this.......Who told you this information?

KREIA!
The part of information about Kae falling in love, and becoming pregnant by Yusanis, and dying in the Mandalorian War (with no body being found) can be learned from both Mical and Brianna as well. However, everything outside of this limited information is learned from Kreia, and Kreia alone.

However, something comes to mind when I think of this...

PC: "You have been lying to me from the very beginning."
Kreia: "Yes, from the moment you awoke..."

And isn't it also curious that Kae is Revan's only master noted to have fought in the Mandalorian War. Not only that, but she is also the only to be firmly noted - by name - to have died. Then, standing before the Jedi Council, Kreia was roughly greeted with, "I thought you had died in the Mandalorian Wars"?
Thought for the Day:

As I stated before, the excuse of who was exiled for what goes out the window when you look at the source of the information. Kreia is the only one who tells you why both she and Arren were exiled. But could you be absolutely sure that she was ever telling telling the truth? If she is Arren kae, and she did not want you to know it, wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that she would tell you a lie?

Plus, the story of Kae being exiled for becming pregnant and giving birth does not fit in to the era that these games take place in. Many Jedi during this time frame have been married, and have had children. Sometime multiple times.

Also, the information that you receive from other sources almos discredit, completely, the information Kreia gives you. Mical tells you that Revan had many masters, "Master Kae, before Kae left for the war." He never once mentioned that she was exiled, either it be for getting pregnant or any other reason.

Now follow this next part closely...Brianna tells you that her mother, Arren Kae, went to war; and it was while fighting in the war that Arren fell in love with Yusanis and became pregnant. Then, shortly after having given birth to Brianna, she is believed to have died in battle. Never once do Brianna tell you that her mother was exiled, never once does she tell you her mother was, in the least, scolded for have gotten pregnant. For both Mical and Brianna, you only know that Kae did go to war. But only after having already gone to war did she meet Yusanis, fall into love (or lust) and get pregnant. And then she is believed to have died. No disgrace is ever mentioned (unless you count going to war as a disgrace), and no 'Exile of Master Kae' is ever mentioned.

I'm sorry, but even if Kreia's story is true, the order of events in which she told them is very faulty, and would already discredit it.

BTW, this last quote is being said in the context that Kae's exile never appeared in-game; it is cut dialogue.

RobQel-Droma
02-02-2006, 11:08 AM
Well, it seems very possible now. Too much to be one big accident...I think something else is going on...

Exactly my thoughts. Too many coincidences, I doubt all these could just be accidents. BTW, sorry if I didn't come off very well in my last few posts, or ticked some of you off.

Oh yeah, and sorry about the double post RedHawke. Thanks for editing it for me though. :)

Point Man
02-02-2006, 12:33 PM
I would like to believe they are the same person, but the timeline does not seem to work out. The Exile was in exile for 10 years. If he came back right after the end of the Mandalorian Wars, which lasted 5 years, Briana could only be 15 at most. She is definitely older than 15. Sorry, Rob, but intriguing as it is, it just does not fit.

RobQel-Droma
02-02-2006, 01:13 PM
^Just wondering - Where do you get those dates? And another thing I would also like to know, how do you know how old Brianna is? From what you are saying, 15 is the minimum. What if he didn't come back right after the Mandalorian Wars? Besides, we don't know when exactly Arren had Brianna.

Master Dakari
02-02-2006, 01:24 PM
This was also an argument over at Obsidian. But the counter claim is that... do you know for a fact that she isn't only 15? No. But what we do know is that she is youngest of her sisters. And how many are there of them? Also, Natalie Portman was supposed to be a 15 year-old Queen of Naboo while she was 19(?). And Leia was originally supposed to be 16 years old in ANH. Though this changed with Episode III, which made the character older.

It is not far-fetched at all to consider Brianna as 15. It doesn't change anything in my opinion.

Point Man
02-02-2006, 03:03 PM
Ya know, I was just thinking ("...a dangerous pastime."), and the age of Briana is irrelevant to whether Kreia is her mother. Proving her age does nothing to prove or disprove if Arren and Kreia were one and the same. Please forgive the Alzheimer's Moment.

PoiuyWired
02-02-2006, 03:18 PM
we also don't know if her species gave birth in a litter!!! so maybe all her sis if of the same litter, which explains alot.

Darth Exilus
02-02-2006, 04:56 PM
How could Arren possibly have been one of Revan's masters if she was only the rank of Jedi Knight?

When Kreia was in the Jedi Order, she was at the rank of Jedi Master. At this same time, Arren Kae was in the Jedi Order, and she had only achieved the rank of Jedi Knight.

Master Dakari
02-02-2006, 05:15 PM
How could Arren possibly have been one of Revan's masters if she was only the rank of Jedi Knight?

The term 'knight' is a broadly used term for the Jedi. You have the official title, Jedi Knight, meaning a padawan who has passed the trials successfully. Then you have 'Jedi Knights', meaning all of the Jedi Order. Believe it not, Jedi Masters or considered Jedi Knights, but they have achieved a higher position. But to not carry on about this, I'll just quote Kreia;

Kreia: Her mother was a Jedi Knight, a Master, named Arren Kae.

and Mical;

Mical: Zhar, Dorak, Master Kae before Kae left for the Wars.

She was a Jedi Master.

Melly
02-02-2006, 08:19 PM
I just want to put in my two cents about Handmaidens mum. Brianna says that her father left to join the Mandalorian Wars to be with Arren Kae, they did not meet during the war. She also remarks in the difference that was in him when he returned which means Handmaiden had to have been old enough to remember her father leaving. My guess would be that she was about 10. Add ten more years to that and you have the events of K2. Handmaiden is about 20.

Handmaiden also mentions that she never saw her mother, that Yusanis kept her and raised her with her sisters.

zadi
02-02-2006, 09:18 PM
How could Arren possibly have been one of Revan's masters if she was only the rank of Jedi Knight?

When Kreia was in the Jedi Order, she was at the rank of Jedi Master. At this same time, Arren Kae was in the Jedi Order, and she had only achieved the rank of Jedi Knight.

Wasn't Obiwan just a Jedi Knight when he was Anakin's Master?

Clone L68362
02-02-2006, 10:55 PM
The only thing I can't understand is the age. Kae had to have been OLD during the Mandalorian Wars, for her to be as old as Kreia in TSL. It's awfully complicated.

RobQel-Droma
02-02-2006, 11:25 PM
Maybe Kae was. But there is the other problem - just like Brianna, we really don't know how old Kreia was either. Sure, she seems old, and is probably around "ancient", but it might not be quite as old as we think.

narfblat
02-03-2006, 11:26 AM
One thing I noticed, but may not mean anything:
Atton says that Kreia may have been beautiful once, but now she has wrinkles from hard living. Later, the other handmaidens say that Echani women usually have a face like their mother.

RobQel-Droma
02-03-2006, 11:29 AM
That may be something, I don't know. As Atton says, Kreia has wrinkles from "hard living", so we don't really know what she once looked like. If it was similar to the Brianna's face, that might be even more evidence. Of course, even though everyone said Brianna was different than the other Handmaiden's, I for some reason couldn't tell. :dozey:

Shem
02-03-2006, 01:52 PM
As Atton says, Kreia has wrinkles from "hard living", so we don't really know what she once looked like. If it was similar to the Brianna's face, that might be even more evidence.
I think you're just looking for an added twist to the story that just isn't there.

RobQel-Droma
02-03-2006, 06:05 PM
And I think you're just ignoring all the evidence for this little "twist". :rolleyes:

Char Ell
02-03-2006, 07:31 PM
I know that whereas before this thread I didn't think there was any important connection between Kreia and the Handmaiden's mother but now I think there is definitely something going on there. I've added the Arren Kae/Kreia question to my list of things I hope will be addressed in the next KotOR game.

Clone L68362
02-04-2006, 01:03 AM
Me too. Hmm...Revan killed Yusanis...I wonder, if Kreia is Kae, what happened after that...

The_Maker
02-04-2006, 11:33 AM
Well, there are a LOT of coincidences pointing to them being the same person, but I just cannot imagine such a thing. And just because Arren "died" on Malachor V doesn't necessarily mean physically. Obi Wan told Luke Vader killed his father in the sense the the light within Anakin had died and he became Darth Vader, not one killing the other in the sense of two people.

Its plausible, but I really don't want to think its possible :eekanime:

Shem
02-04-2006, 05:13 PM
And I think you're just ignoring all the evidence for this little "twist". :rolleyes:
What evidence? :lol:

RobQel-Droma
02-05-2006, 12:17 PM
Umm... The evidence that I posted in my first post. Did you read any of that?

Shem
02-05-2006, 04:08 PM
Umm... The evidence that I posted in my first post. Did you read any of that?
I sure did.

There is some debate whether Kae is Kreia. They do indeed have something in common—they were both female Jedi Masters
That isn't evidence.

both taught Revan

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/JediShemL/Revan15.jpg (http://photobucket.com)
It says here that Revan had many masters.

And it never says that Kae taught Revan.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/JediShemL/Revan17.jpg (http://photobucket.com)
It says here that Revan welcomed Kae in his effort against the Mandalorians after she was exiled. Nothing about being Revan's teacher.

and Atris' exclamation "Kreia? That is not her name".
Yeah, it's Darth Traya.

Clone L68362
02-05-2006, 06:32 PM
Shem, read through the whole topic. There's better evidence than that. Kae DID teach Revan, Kae's body was never found so how can we be sure she'd dead...etc.

Char Ell
02-05-2006, 06:34 PM
And it never says that Kae taught Revan.Perhaps you didn't read these previous posts in this thread?
Post #21 by Hai Wan (http://www.lucasforums.com/showpost.php?p=2009706&postcount=21)
Post #30 by Master Dakari (http://www.lucasforums.com/showpost.php?p=2010229&postcount=30)

EDIT: Cool. An all AZ conversation going here, heh-heh. ;)

Master Dakari
02-05-2006, 07:01 PM
You are right, Hai Wan. But I'll quote Mical again, just for emphasis...

Mical: Revan had many Masters. Zhar, Dorak, Master Kae before Kae left for the Wars.

So yes. Once again it is settled that Jedi Master Arren Kae did train Jedi Padawan Revan.

Phew! How many times does one thing have to be said before it is no longer disputted? :rolleyes:

Shem
02-05-2006, 08:09 PM
But the fact remains that Revan was trained by many people because he/she had many masters. Kae is not Kreia. Just like Sifo-Dyas was not Sidious or or Grievous or anybody else in the Star Wars Saga.

zadi
02-05-2006, 08:11 PM
You are right, Hai Wan. But I'll quote Mical again, just for emphasis...

Mical: Revan had many Masters. Zhar, Dorak, Master Kae before Kae left for the Wars.

So yes. Once again it is settled that Jedi Master Arren Kae did train Jedi Padawan Revan.

Phew! How many times does one thing have to be said before it is no longer disputted? :rolleyes:

Heh. Many time. And for those who still don't believe it....

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/9799/disciple014am.th.jpg (http://img85.imageshack.us/my.php?image=disciple014am.jpg) http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/949/disciple020ht.th.jpg (http://img85.imageshack.us/my.php?image=disciple020ht.jpg)

But I still don't think Kreia and Kae are the same person. Kreia seems to have been Revan's first teacher and Kae was not her first.

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/6231/kreia271kr.th.jpg (http://img87.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kreia271kr.jpg) http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/3251/kreia280fo.th.jpg (http://img87.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kreia280fo.jpg) http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/1384/kreia297le.th.jpg (http://img86.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kreia297le.jpg) http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/8886/kreia317ts.th.jpg (http://img87.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kreia317ts.jpg) http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/3783/kreia321ue.th.jpg (http://img86.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kreia321ue.jpg) http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/566/kreia338gx.th.jpg (http://img87.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kreia338gx.jpg)

Jedi General
02-05-2006, 08:41 PM
The looks of the 2 is a mute point at this stage, considering we know from Kotor1 that the force can manifest itself visibly, like making the exile glow, or disfigurements, as said by Yuthura.

Consider this.

IF and i stress IF they are one and the same, Kreia's students all fell at some point or other. Kae fell in love with Yusanis and the 2 had Brianna. Atris then kept Brianna around, "Possibly" knowing who she was, Brianna had to find out from somewhere, considering Atris isnt exactly a prodigal Jedi, she may have intended Brianna for her apprentice, the force runs strong in children of jedi, if Kae is Kreia then Brianna may have been more receptive towards the dark side. Atris seemed to care more for Brianna than the rest of the handmaidens, as we know what happens when it all kicks of.

Kreia is blind, she never said how she became blind, aside from "atrophied from use or age" and i think we can all take what Kreia says with a pinch of salt.

If she sustained the injury from Malachor, survived the mas sshadow generator and found Trayus, it would explain how she fell, where she got the name Traya and where she was hanging out for 10 - 15 years.

The she suffers her own exile, suffers disfigurement from said exile and takes the shrouded jedi look.

Goes in seach of Yusanis for memorable memories, or protection.

Discovers he is dead, Revan is also missing so she has nothing to direct her anger except towards the ones who cast her down.

She objects to Brianna's presence on the Hawk, scared of confessing all, scared of feelings being revealed or simply scared of hurting her.

And we know Kreia changes her name to Traya, so why shouldnt she change kae to Kreia?

Kae was the jedi persona, Kreia, the grey persona and Traya the Darth.

Its all plausible and yet so far fetched at the same time, dont suppose anyone has there hands on the cut content incase theres some backstory at the ending conversation. Or what Atris spills once she is at your knees.

RobQel-Droma
02-05-2006, 11:34 PM
Yeah, it's Darth Traya.

How do you know what was going through Atris's mind? You can not say that it is a fact she was talking about the name "Darth Traya."

But the fact remains that Revan was trained by many people because he/she had many masters. Kae is not Kreia. Just like Sifo-Dyas was not Sidious or or Grievous or anybody else in the Star Wars Saga.

Shem. Read all of the previous posts. Several times. You don't seem to get any of this. What does the "fact that Revan was trained by many people because he/she had many masters" have anything to do with it? He was, and among those were: Kae and Kreia, which might be the same person.

And your comparison to Sifo-Dyas has absolutely no relevance to the discussion. Look at all the stuff I posted, and consider it all - and please have a better argument than "Kae isn't Kreia."

Shem
02-06-2006, 12:22 AM
How do you know what was going through Atris's mind? You can not say that it is a fact she was talking about the name "Darth Traya."
If you want to get that direct, then consider this. There nothing that directly says that Kae is Kreia. Nothing. It's just 100% pure speculation.



And your comparison to Sifo-Dyas has absolutely no relevance to the discussion. Look at all the stuff I posted, and consider it all - and please have a better argument than "Kae isn't Kreia."
Actually it does. If you followed any of the speculation of what's to come in the Star Wars prequels before they were released on the different message boards around the internet, you would see that the Sifo-Dyas thing was huge. So many people claimed that Sifo-Dyas was someone else other than a Jedi Master that was killed. Sifo-Dyas ranged from Sidious because of the simularity of the names and that Sifo-Dyas' name was changed from Sidodyas. Other claimed he was Count Dooku before he left the Jedi Order. When General Grievous was introduced to be in Episode III, many claimed they were the same person. It even went as far as Sifo-Dyas being Qui-Gon Jinn. And in each case, there were a list of things that were considered evidence to support their case. It got to the point where in each case, they convinced themselves that it was a fact. I see that happening again. It won't be long for others on here that are on the boarderline will go the speculation direction as fact. And mostly they are looking for a twist, like they did in Revenge of the Sith.

One thing I learned is if you have to stretch and say "It could mean this, or it could mean that," 95% of the time, you are barking up the wrong tree. I made the comparison to the Sifo-Dyas thing because I see the same thing all over again. I'm willing to bet that Lucas Arts would be laughing at this right now if they saw it. Especially Mike Gallo. Another thing that Mike said before the release of TSL is that there wasn't a twist like there was in KOTOR. If Kreia was Kae, then that would be a huge twist. And if that was true, why isn't it revealed in the game? What would be the point not saying anything? There isn't is why. Logically it doesn't make sense. If anything, it ruins the story that struggled. TSL isn't as strong storyline as KOTOR is and if this twist were true, it would ruin it even more. There is no way it's going to be true.

Char Ell
02-06-2006, 09:42 AM
Another thing that Mike said before the release of TSL is that there wasn't a twist like there was in KOTOR. If Kreia was Kae, then that would be a huge twist. And if that was true, why isn't it revealed in the game? What would be the point not saying anything? There isn't is why. Logically it doesn't make sense. If anything, it ruins the story that struggled. Well, I think it's safe to say the Arren Kae/Kreia issue wouldn't be a twist for TSL as it wasn't revealed in TSL. As far as I can see there isn't any solid evidence from TSL that allows one to say for certain that Kreia and Arren Kae are one and the same. However this doesn't mean that they aren't and more about this won't come up in the next KotOR game. If anything the TSL story writers did an excellent job at leaving us hanging on this one.

This is similar to what the writers of KotOR did with the ghost of Ajunta Pall in his tomb on Korriban. If you talked to Ajunta Pall enough he mentions something about where the Sith Lords source of power came from but you can't persuade him to tell you any more than that. IMO the Sith's source of power wasn't Malachor V and so I think we still don't know. Whether or not the writers will address this in the next KotOR is hard to say and the same can be said for the Arren Kae/Kreia question. They could just leave us interminably wondering but I hope not.

We can speculate and draw conclusions but there isn't enough factual evidence to fully support a conclusion one way or the other. But as for myself, I now think there is something significant that hasn't been revealed about Kreia and Arren Kae. I don't necessarily think that it's a matter of Kreia and Arren Kae being the same person but it very well could be. I wasn't open to that possibility before this thread.
Kae was the jedi persona, Kreia, the grey persona and Traya the Darth. Hmmm... An interesting idea this.

RobQel-Droma
02-06-2006, 11:13 AM
I'm willing to bet that Lucas Arts would be laughing at this right now if they saw it. Especially Mike Gallo. Another thing that Mike said before the release of TSL is that there wasn't a twist like there was in KOTOR. If Kreia was Kae, then that would be a huge twist. And if that was true, why isn't it revealed in the game? What would be the point not saying anything? There isn't is why. Logically it doesn't make sense.

Or laughing at you say that, because for all we know, they might have. Why did the devs say that Arren Kae's body was never found? What was the importance of that? Why does the Jedi Council never use Kreia or Arren's name, just saying "she" and "her"? Why is Kreia greeted by the Council with "I thought you died in the Mandalorian Wars"?

As far as it not being "logical", why would Kreia ever reveal this? It may be something addressed in the next game, or maybe it was stuff that was cut, who knows?

It's just 100% pure speculation.

Wrong. This is why your Sifo-Dyas thing doesn't have any relevance. There is absolutely no evidence that might point to him being (specifically) another person. All there is is a name, and just some mystery.

Now for Arren and Kreia: There is similar names, there are suspicious occurences, they are never mentioned by name, etc. Much more to go on.

Can you find something that says Arren is NOT Kreia? No.

But consider this. They were both exiled Jedi Masters who trained Revan. However, as I said before, no one ever mentions their names, or if they do (like Kreia and the Disciple), you never have an instance where they are both mentioned together, teaching Revan. Arren went off with Revan to war, and died - however, no body was found. Then, Darth Traya, Lady of Betrayal, appears at the Trayus Academy. But Sion and Nihilus betray her, and she goes into Exile. She changes her name to Kreia, now a grey Jedi, which can be gotten from a combination of the Sith Traya and the Jedi Kae. Then she finds you, and is greeted with "I thought you died in the Mandalorian Wars?"

Can you find any problem with that? I doubt it, and anything you find I am willing to bet that someone could explain. But you can not prove that this twist just isn't there, unlike this, which is so strange and coincidental that it doesn't make sense for there to be nothing going on.

Now if you still won't believe that, and just say "It isn't there", I can't argue anymore. I'm not going to waste time debating with someone who wouldn't change their views no matter what came up, even if the thing that proved this twist came up and danced in their face.

igyman
02-06-2006, 01:58 PM
OK, all of you who think Kreia is Arren should definitely go to the Sith Lords official site and under the ''game info'' section check out the ''chronicles'' subsection - I'm refering specifically to the following two:
Part XII: The Feeding of Malachor V
Part XIII: Ascension of the Sith

If this doesn't convince you that you are wrong, then nothing will, except for a statement from the authors of the story.

RobQel-Droma
02-06-2006, 02:47 PM
I'm not quite sure what it is we are supposed to be seeing...

If you are talking about the thing about "Jedi Master Kreia", alright, what does that have to do with it? Ok, Arren/Kreia goes off to war, is exiled when Revan fell for her teaching corrupting Revan, then is filled with guilt about this and wanders to Malachor V and is seduced by the dark side (she is believed to be dead). She then becomes: Traya.

igyman
02-06-2006, 02:51 PM
You were supposed to see that Kreia is always refered to as KREIA. There isn't a sentence in that story that says that Kreia followed Revan in the Mandalorian Wars and there isn't a sentence that calls Kreia Arren.

RobQel-Droma
02-06-2006, 03:08 PM
So? Kreia is her name (and so is maybe Arren). Besides, igyman, do you really think that they would say, right in there, that Kreia is Arren? :rolleyes: Talk about major spoilers... Besides, that fits with Kreia's story (and Kreia never refers to herself as Arren anyways).

igyman
02-06-2006, 03:17 PM
First off, I salute you staying true to your original oppinion.

The reason I mentioned the chronicles is because I thought they'd clear up some things, obviously they don't, at least for you. I on the other hand will satisfy myself with Kreia being Kreia/Darth Traya, since the evidence I saw here wasn't enough to convince me otherwise.

zadi
02-06-2006, 04:20 PM
First off, I salute you staying true to your original oppinion.

The reason I mentioned the chronicles is because I thought they'd clear up some things, obviously they don't, at least for you. I on the other hand will satisfy myself with Kreia being Kreia/Darth Traya, since the evidence I saw here wasn't enough to convince me otherwise.

Those Chronicles pretty much clear up the fact that Kreia has always been Kreia, not Kae.

Maybe the new comic that came out and will be coming out over the next few months will dispeal Kreia is Kae theories.

Melly
02-06-2006, 04:39 PM
When Disciple and Kreia are talking aboard the Ebon Hawk when he finds out what the Exile is he says to Kreia "I know who you are, not even the markings of the darkside can hide it."

I don't know if that has any significance or not though.

(Zadi, I like you avatar. I use that head for the Exile as well)

RobQel-Droma
02-06-2006, 04:50 PM
I thought about that too, but didn't know what it meant.

Those Chronicles pretty much clear up the fact that Kreia has always been Kreia, not Kae.

How do they do that? All they do is say "Kreia." Now since they pretty much tell you what Kreia tells you, don't you think that Kreia would never call herself "Arren", and always say that she is just "Kreia"? She never told you she used to be "Darth Traya". either.

Maybe the new comic that came out and will be coming out over the next few months will dispeal Kreia is Kae theories.

Or it might prove them.

Char Ell
02-06-2006, 10:22 PM
JEDI MASTER KREIA, Revan's old mentor, is still haunted by guilt, wondering whether it was her teaching that resulted in Revan's fall to the dark side, and begins to search for him. Sensing his last location, she travels to Malachor V, but is unable to shield her emotions, and is completely consumed by the dark side of the Force. She is lost to the Jedi, spending the next several years on Malachor V, learning its secrets, and eventually becoming The master of the Sith academy there. Guided by Kreia's influence, Sith assassins once again begin to emerge silently from Malachor V and strike at isolated Jedi across the Republic, capturing some Jedi to turn to the dark side, and slaying those that resist. Taken to the dark side world of Malachor V to be fed to the planet's dark energies, these Jedi husks create even more assassins and DARK JEDI, feeding the planet's hunger.
It is the beginning of the Jedi's decline throughout the Galaxy. Individual Jedi begin to leave the Jedi Order, and the Jedi Watchmen of many systems, disenchanted with the endless, pointless struggles, step down and exile themselves in unknown quadrants of the galaxy, echoing the disillusionment of Jedi Master JOLEE BINDO. These are referred to by scribes of the time as the LOST JEDI. With their numbers already thinned by the war with DARTH MALAK, the Jedi Order is reduced to less than one hundred surviving Jedi Knights. As the numbers of Jedi continue to dwindle, the remaining practitioners of the light side of the Force believe the Lost Jedi to have forsaken the Order, but in fact, many of them are victims of Sith Assassins, or are being captured and imprisoned on the dark side world of MALACHOR V, waiting to be converted to the dark side of the Force. Under the watchful gaze of a corrupted Jedi KREIA, many of these Jedi die, but some are converted.I thought it might be helpful to post the relevant parts about Kreia from the chronicles posted on the TSL website since igyman referred to them. But after having reviewed these two parts I don't see anything in them that makes me think that there is no way Kreia could be Arren Kae. Of course I still maintain my position that we can't know either way at this point in time.

The Sith'ari
06-30-2006, 02:57 PM
Wow, you guys are very serious about this. Let me see...now that you started this debate, I think there's really sthg intriguing about Arren and Kreia. Also, I recall Atton said sthg like Kreia must have been beautiful when she was younger, and coincidentally, if i remember right, there's a dialogue option when the exile talked to Brianna that goes "If your face is exactly like your mother's, she must have been beautiful.", sthg like that. This of course isn't any solid evidence, but it is intend quite interesting.

darth_traya
07-03-2006, 09:56 PM
This can be found in disciples dialogue file.

Entry 260 - Revan had many Masters. Zhar, Dorak, Master Kae before Kae left for the Wars. Towards the end of his training, he sought out many to learn techniques.
Entry 261 - It is said that he returned to his first master at the end of his training, in order to learn how he might best leave the order.
And then interestingly enough Kreia does something here, using her Jedi powers or something as she is quoted ::Jedi:: in entry 263. And then Disciple says:
Entry 265 - {A little confused}I do not recall who Revan's master was... strange.

Entry 275 - Master Zhar taught Malak - and Revan had many masters, including Zhar, Kae, and Dorak... and towards the end of the training, Revan sought out many other teachers to learn certain techniques.
Entry 276 - As a Padawan, Revan was trained by Master Kae, before she was exiled. Strange, I do not recall who Revan's master was after that.

He also says "I know who you are, not even the markings of the darkside can hide it."

Now Master Kae is the last master mentioned. Kreia is meant to be the first and the last of Revan's masters. This doesn't prove anything but it is worth noting.

Kreia doesnt want the Exile to know she was Revan's master but she is willing to tell the Exile this. The Exile must know something about Kreia & Revan that Kreia doesn't want the Exile to know.

Shem
07-06-2006, 05:15 PM
Here is a quote people should read.

"In here, speculation quickly becomes assumption, and then assumption becomes fact, and reveals itself as disappointment when what everyone forgets began as speculation turns out to be false."

Until I see concrete evidence that says directly that Kae and Kreia are the same person, then they're not.

Clone L68362
07-06-2006, 06:50 PM
Revanchow, you didn't need to bump this thread...

And Shem, no one has gone and said "No Shem! You're wrong, Kreia and Kae are the same person and that's that."

Jediphile
07-07-2006, 11:31 AM
Oh dear - this topic seems to taking just the same direction that it did in the Obsidian forum. Just to clarify a few things...

@Shem:

First, there is no definite proof that Kreia is Kae. None. I've been very interested in this very topic and followed the discussions, searched the files, etc. So trust me, no concrete evidence. And I say that as someone who does think that Kreia may indeed be Kae. Okay?

However, I have not seen anyone here saying definitely that Kreia is Kae, though, and I certainly have not seen Cutmeister say it. I have seen him say only that Kreia being Kae is a POSSIBILITY. And I even agree with it. Because while there is indeed no proof that Kreia is Kae, there is certainly enough circumstatial evidence to make us wonder, and nobody has been able to prove that Kreia is not Kae either...

Consider these points (which I have stated before on the Obsidian forum):

1. Kreia and Kae are both jedi masters exiled from the order. Kreia says she was exiled for her dark teachings, and Kae was presumably exiled for having a child. However, the only one to ever tell us that this the reason for Kae's exile is Kreia, and she only implies it - she does not actually say outright that it's the reason (and it seems incredibly harsh to me anyway - Jolee's crime was much greater, yet he was forgiven), and you have to be very careful when it comes to these things where Kreia is concerned. Kreia's lies are always 60% truth, and her truths are always 40% lies ;)

2. They both trained Revan. Kreia admits that Revan was her padawan and that he returned to her in the end. Disciple tells us that Kae trained Revan, that he was her padawan, and she is also the first master he mentions Revan training under.

3. Kreia and Kae both fought in the Mandalorian Wars. We know that Kae fought in it both from Mical and Brianna. She presumably died in the war on Malachor V, but her body was never recovered, even though Brianna conveniently has her robes. What? They found the robes but never the body?!? That at least raises a lot of suspicion with me as to wether Kae even died at all. Kreia, however, found the Trayus academy on Malachor V and became Darth Traya, strangely around the same time as Kae's presumed death.

4. IF we assume (and I note the "if") that Kreia is Kae, then she seems to have gone from a jedi master as Master Kae (light side) to a sith lord, Darth Traya (dark side), to a gray jedi (Kreia). Thus we have: K(ae)+(T)raya=Kraya=Kreia. It fits uncomfortably well, if you ask me.

5. "Kreia? That is not her real name", Atris says when you confront her on Telos toward the end of the game. So what is Kreia's name? Is it Darth Traya? No, I don't think so. Because in the very same conversation with Atris, you can get this response: "Atris... that is not who I am, not any longer. She has not existed for some time, I think." Now, if Atris is no longer Atris, then who is she? It seems to me that she can then be only Darth Traya. She's wrong, but she doesn't know that yet, and so it seem very odd to me for her to give that name to Kreia.

igyman
07-07-2006, 01:36 PM
Oh man, not this again. I thought we agreed there is no concrete evidence and agreed to disagree. If some of you want to beleive that Kreia is Arren Kae, then so be it. We who don't have tried our best to show you why we don't and why you shouldn't beleive it so strongly. Obviously, we are all too stubborn to change our minds, so there's no point in further discussion as it can only lead to stupid unnecessary fights between us.

Jediphile
07-07-2006, 04:54 PM
Huh?

I don't get it.

At the risk of repeating myself, nobody has said that Kreia is definitely Kae. At least I haven't heard anyone say so. All that has been done is to muse about the topic, which I don't see how can be cause trouble. What? We're not allowed to make observations and speculate about them?

I have no problem with people not believing that Kreia is Kae. I do have a problem with people saying it is not possible without bringing anything forward to support the claim. To make that claim and then scold other people for saying the opposite on the basis of observations quoted directly from the game does not seem to be a very fair basis for a discussion.

Besides, if people don't like to consider the idea of Kreia being Kae, then why did they click to read this topic? It's title is "Are Arren Kae and Kreia the same person?" - it's not that difficult, I think...

igyman
07-07-2006, 06:28 PM
What? We're not allowed to make observations and speculate about them?

I didn't say that. Did I?? I'm just saying that the 'evidence' presented here haven't changed anybody's mind in any way. People who thought Kreia isn't Kae still think so and people who thought Kreia is Kae also still think so. I just don't think that further repeatition of already posted arguments will lead anywhere.

Jediphile
07-08-2006, 10:22 AM
No, you didn't say that, but neither did I say you did.

And the topic is here for those of us who want to discuss it. If you don't, then that's fine. But it strikes me as odd that you denounce the idea of the discussion itself. Just because you're not swayed by the arguments doesn't make the discussion invalid or inappropriate, and as I've said, the topic is pretty obvious from its title. If people are not interested in it, then how difficult is to simply not click on it?

RobQel-Droma
07-08-2006, 11:27 AM
I agree with Jediphile. Igyman, if you consider this discussion basically closed, with no other way to convince anybody, then... why don't you leave? Don't start telling those of us who think this plausible to stop discussing this because you don't think that "further repeatition of already posted arguments will lead anywhere."

No, I don't think that we agreed that there is no concrete evidence (although I would probably admit that we do not have the kind of evidence you are thinking of), and "agreed to disagree." Not that I know of. But quite simply, you don't have to click on the thread if that is the view you take. I just hope you don't consider it a crime to discuss these things. If your mind is set, then you probably don't have anything else to discuss.

pegasus71
07-08-2006, 11:43 AM
well it's a debate!! debating is good it just means the plot was very well done!! Personally I think that to Kreia's mind if she really was Kae that chapter of her life is read and closed as she said. She was probably Kae or perhaps just Kreia, but for one such as myself who deeply admires Kreia's teachings she deserves to be seen for what she is now. It doesn't really matter who she was. Even if i think she was kae because she knows how and when Kae was pregnant and how she was received by Revan when she joined him. But in a dlg between Atris and Kreia in the sound files Kreia says that she order the exile of The Exile...it's inconsistant since at that time Kae was already exiled and joined the mandolarian wars... how coud kae if she is kreia order the council to exile the Exile at the end of the mandalorian wars she just fought... just weird...but whatever i'm basically contradicting myself with the beggining of my post lol

Char Ell
07-08-2006, 12:38 PM
We can speculate and draw conclusions but there isn't enough factual evidence to fully support a conclusion one way or the other. But as for myself, I now think there is something significant that hasn't been revealed about Kreia and Arren Kae. I don't necessarily think that it's a matter of Kreia and Arren Kae being the same person but it very well could be. I wasn't open to that possibility before this thread. I haven't read anything since I posted this that has swayed me from my previous stance.

Until I see concrete evidence that says directly that Kae and Kreia are the same person, then they're not. But are you open to the possibility that Arren Kae and Kreia could be the same person or are you 100% convinced that they are two different people, no ifs, ands, or buts about it? Sounds like you're the latter.

IMO this is one of many debates where one can take five different positions.
1) Kreia and Arren Kae are not the same person.
2) Kreia and Arren Kae are the same person.
3) Undecided if Kreia and Arren Kae are the same person.
a) undecided but leaning towards (1)
b) undecided but leaning towards (2)
c) completely undecided As for myself I'm 3b. I don't understand how anyone can be (1) or (2) if they're basing their position on the available data. All the evidence for Kreia and Arren Kae being the same person is circumstantial at best but such evidence does introduce the possibility that Kreia and Arren Kae are one and the same. However the question can't be definitively answered without further factual evidence provided by an authoritative source e.g. future KotOR game, LL authorized book, or comic series.

igyman
07-08-2006, 01:11 PM
I see I've stirred up the hive with that one post. This will be my last saying on the matter, I simply feel the need to give one last clarification on my position.
First of all, I'm sorry if I angered anyone, I never wanted to do that, nor did I want to tell anyone what they can and can't do, I'm not a moderator and that's not something I have the right to do. The point of that post that annoyed you so much was this:
- This is a discussion on whether Kreia could or couldn't be Kae.
- Both those who think she could and those who think she couldn't have posted arguments for their opinion.
- Neither of those arguments have made anyone change their mind about the matter.
- The end goal of this (or any other) discussion is to sway the others to your side, to convince them that they are wrong and you are right. If current arguments haven't done this, new arguments should be found and presented. This is what I meant by ''repeating the existing arguments will lead nowhere''.

Like I said this is the last you'll hear from me on this matter, any further posts from me will be on topic - comments on the posted arguments.

Phantom Joker
07-09-2006, 12:58 PM
At the risk of prodding rancors with a stun stick...

My own gut feeling is that this is a case where a character (well, characters, actually...) take on a life of their own quite outside the intention of the authors. But in the end, really, who knows other than the guys that wrote it? Has anyone heard their take on it?

The Source
07-09-2006, 03:56 PM
I thought Brianna's mother ran off to be with her father. They fought side by side until their death?

Nema_Suneimi
07-09-2006, 04:13 PM
I thought Brianna's mother ran off to be with her father. They fought side by side until their death?

Revan asked Kae to fight, and it was Yusannis who followed her.

Jediphile
07-09-2006, 07:05 PM
- This is a discussion on whether Kreia could or couldn't be Kae.
- Both those who think she could and those who think she couldn't have posted arguments for their opinion.
- Neither of those arguments have made anyone change their mind about the matter.

Actually, I was very much against the idea early on, until I realised that this was because I didn't want Kreia to be Brianna's mother, not because it didn't make sense, but because the idea was disturbing somehow. And obviously that is never a good reason to dismiss a theory, so I changed my mind.


- The end goal of this (or any other) discussion is to sway the others to your side, to convince them that they are wrong and you are right. If current arguments haven't done this, new arguments should be found and presented. This is what I meant by ''repeating the existing arguments will lead nowhere''.


On principle I can't agree with that, since it seems to confrontational and black-and-white, as if one side must be entirely correct and the other entirely wrong. Things are rarely that clear cut, and although Kreia obviously either is or isn't Kae, I don't see that one side must lose completely for a compromise to be reached.

Jediphile
07-09-2006, 07:09 PM
I thought Brianna's mother ran off to be with her father. They fought side by side until their death?

Kae was exiled, presumably for having a child. She then joined to fight in the Mandalorian Wars along with Yusanis (Brianna's father). Kae is said to have died during the wars, though her body was never recovered (but her robes were - Brianna has them).

Yusanis survived the war, but was changed after it. He stopped being a general/soldier and entered politics instead. When Revan turned to the dark side, Yusanis stood against him, and Revan killed Yusanis.

The Sith'ari
07-11-2006, 02:53 AM
Revanchow, you didn't need to bump this thread...

What do you mean by I "bumped" this thread? I was just adding a comment as to why they might be the same person.

Clone L68362
07-11-2006, 03:33 AM
If you mean what does "bump" mean, it's posting in order to bring a topic to the top. It's actually a no-no here, so I guess I should say you didn't need to post in this thread. It's 4 months old, and neither side has enough evidence to continue the discussion.

Jediphile
07-11-2006, 04:30 AM
If you mean what does "bump" mean, it's posting in order to bring a topic to the top. It's actually a no-no here, so I guess I should say you didn't need to post in this thread. It's 4 months old, and neither side has enough evidence to continue the discussion.

With continued discussion, there is always the possibility that this might change. Not a big chance, perhaps, but I'll give it the benefit of the doubt. And if someone wants to discuss it, then why shouldn't he?

The Sith'ari
07-11-2006, 04:42 AM
With continued discussion, there is always the possibility that this might change. Not a big chance, perhaps, but I'll give it the benefit of the doubt. And if someone wants to discuss it, then why shouldn't he?

I'm new here and that was the first time I saw that thread and I had a thought and naturally I wanted to add it here. I didn't know there is such a rule... sorry for that. However, it's not like someone has to has some evidence to post a comment here, is it? And I think though many here have been playing kotor for long, some people might have just learnt of the game recently and many threads here are new to them, I just think they are also entitled the right to join the discussion.

And btw, I'm a she. :P

igyman
07-11-2006, 06:18 AM
With continued discussion, there is always the possibility that this might change. Not a big chance, perhaps, but I'll give it the benefit of the doubt. And if someone wants to discuss it, then why shouldn't he?

There is a possibility, if you have new evidence that you want to share with us. Repeating old stuff won't do what you think it will. Clone L68362 and I have been here a little longer than you, so trust us on that one, OK?

I'm new here and that was the first time I saw that thread and I had a thought and naturally I wanted to add it here. I didn't know there is such a rule... sorry for that. However, it's not like someone has to has some evidence to post a comment here, is it? And I think though many here have been playing kotor for long, some people might have just learnt of the game recently and many threads here are new to them, I just think they are also entitled the right to join the discussion.

Actually it is, at least for this type of discussion. You are, of course, entitled to join a discussion, but you should have some argument to defend your position in it.

Beast-Thrasher
07-12-2006, 08:28 AM
I think that Kreia might infact be Kae, for me, these are the hints a picked up on.

When you get Brianna and Kreia says not to mate with that one and seems to not like Brianna too much, perhaps after Kae(Kreia) got pregnant with her and gave birth and she was exiled and then went to the DS and as we learn near the end Kreia hates both the Jedi(Light) and the Sith(DS) so perhaps she disliked Brianna as she may of been a small part in Kae fall, that's one of the things I thought of.


Then the whole Kae was Revan's first Master and then you talk to Kreia and she says that she was his first Master and that both had him as a Padawan.

When you talk to Brianna and she says her mother was a famed Jedi Guardian(remember this) When the Exile goes into the caves and then the tomb, near the end you find Kreia and she says "you have revisited the dark momemts of your past." Well that made me think because Kreia holds a blue Lightsaber in that part, even if you give her a green lightsbar before Korrriban she still has blue. So perhaps it showed the dark moments of Kreia's past as well a blue Lightsaber is usually recognized by being a Guardian which was what Kae was.

So I do think Kae and Kreia are the same, the reason they did not adresse it in the game was maybe the developpers wanted just some skimpy information on the subject so we could talk about it, also remember they had to cut stuff out, perhaps the whole Kreia and Brianna thing was a big thing but didn't play in the main story so they cut it out, there's a million and one reasons why or whatever but I've said my bit.

Melly
07-17-2006, 03:23 AM
Kae was exiled, presumably for having a child.

I've wondered of late if Kae was exiled, not because she had a child, but because of the affair that came along with it- I would imagine that that is not something the Order would smile upon- as Brianna says that her father was pledged to another that was not her mother.

Jediphile
07-17-2006, 03:52 AM
Well, they do say that affair was a scandal, so maybe the order did exile her for that reason.

But to me it always seemed unlikely, since the order accepted Jolee's marriage. Jolee's "crime" was far greater than Kae's, yet he was forgiven for it. That always seemed like a double standard to me, which is why I don't think the reason for Kae's exile is the one Kreia tells us, and which then becomes another clue suggesting that Kreia just might be Kae herself...

RobQel-Droma
07-17-2006, 11:12 PM
There is a possibility, if you have new evidence that you want to share with us. Repeating old stuff won't do what you think it will. Clone L68362 and I have been here a little longer than you, so trust us on that one, OK?

Well, I have been here much much longer than both of you, so trust me on this one, OK? ;) There isn't anything wrong with discussing and pointing out clues in the story that might fit in with either side. I personally believe you are wrong when you say that we have exhausted every discussion point (as we have gone along, people have brought up quotes, etc.). And we have convinced some people - not totally, of course - like Jediphile, who said right out in the open that he has taken a bit different stance from not wanting to believe in it to leaning toward or mostly believing in it. Hai Wan seemed to disbelieve it also, but upon realizing that it had been said that Kae was Revan's master, took up an undecided stance, as far as I know.

Even if we aren't currently convincing anyone else, there are people who don't seem to get all of what we are saying and believe we are doing this on the basis of "they were both Revan's master, and their names sound alike...." at which they need to be told. You saw that with, *cough*, Shem, I think, earlier in this thread.

You are, of course, entitled to join a discussion, but you should have some argument to defend your position in it.

Revanchow has the right to join in the discussion. True, the thread was a bit old, but he simply wanted to voice his opinion. After all, I saw many other people who didn't have any argument either - but as I remembered, revanchow did have something to add.

BTW, the reason I got so annoyed earlier at you, was because the fact you sounded like you were a moderator... which you, of course, addressed in an earlier post.

IMO this is one of many debates where one can take five different positions.

1) Kreia and Arren Kae are not the same person.
2) Kreia and Arren Kae are the same person.
3) Undecided if Kreia and Arren Kae are the same person.
a) undecided but leaning towards (1)
b) undecided but leaning towards (2)
c) completely undecided

As for myself I'm 3b. I don't understand how anyone can be (1) or (2) if they're basing their position on the available data. All the evidence for Kreia and Arren Kae being the same person is circumstantial at best but such evidence does introduce the possibility that Kreia and Arren Kae are one and the same. However the question can't be definitively answered without further factual evidence provided by an authoritative source e.g. future KotOR game, LL authorized book, or comic series.

Unfortunately, Hai Wan, many people tend to not just take a "3b" point, but a "1b" point, which irritates me; several people, simply because they don't want to believe it, don't, while also disregarding anything against their point of view, and having nothing for it. It's very frustrating to people who are trying to have a reasonable debate about it, because people let their preferences of the way it "should" be interfere with facts. (By "facts", I'm not saying that Arren is Kreia, I'm just talking generally about an illogical stance people take; and not just in this thread, either, I've had to deal with it elsewhere).

For instance, Shem comes to mind; not to bash on him, but he was one of the main debaters that was on the extreme 1 side. In fact, he hasn't changed at all.

Also, to add to the original discussion: If I remember, someone said something about a quote of Mical in which he says "even the mantle of the dark side cannot hide you", or something to that effect. Granted, he could be talking about "Darth Traya", but why would that be something mysterious and secret? Kreia basically tells you herself that she once was Darth Traya, so for that, the quote wouldn't make any sense, would it? Why would a "mantle of the dark side" hide a known-to-be former
Sith Lord?

Someone also mentioned the quote by Kreia that tells the PC not to "mate" with Brianna. Unfortunately, I don't remember this - I do remember her telling me not to "mate/sleep" with Visas, because "children would be difficult" or something like that. However, I might be wrong... does someone have a pic or quote that can confirm that, just in case?

jonathan7
07-18-2006, 01:38 AM
Rob, i agree with alot of what you are saying, but as someone who is completly undecided on if this matter is true or not, why does shem have to change his position, as someone who is undecided neither argument has disproved the other, or compelled me to believe either side is right or wrong.

ive also gotta say iggyman et al were a bit harsh on ravenchow, she has a right to post here, and if it offends you that much that this topic is back why not ignore the topic? finally - why would a noob bump?

Char Ell
07-18-2006, 02:17 AM
Someone also mentioned the quote by Kreia that tells the PC not to "mate" with Brianna. Here is what I found in kreia.dlg
KREIA: Before you continue questioning me, I hope your thoughts in the matter concerning this servant of Atris are clear.
Spend time with her if you must - but recognize where your true loyalties lie - to the galaxy and yourself.

EXILE: My feelings for her are none of your concern.

KREIA: Ah, so then perhaps I was mistaken in my judgment.
Never have you wondered what it would mean in the Echani rituals if the two of you sparred and fought - and you won, completely and utterly?
If perhaps she would give in, surrender herself to you?
Few are the thoughts that can hide in the shadows of your mind, exile... and such passions are not strength, but erosion. That's about the extent of it. Not exactly a clear and forthright statement like her one to the Exile about the importance of the Exile not mating with Visas. I didn't see anything else in Kreia's dialogue that referred to a sexual relationship between the Exile and Brianna.

- posted by: The LF Member Formerly Known As Hai Wan ;)

*bAsTiLaJeEdAi*
07-18-2006, 04:00 AM
Whoa I never thought of that possibility.
I think it would be cool, cause it adds a whole new twist.But if the exile hooked up with the Handmaiden then he would have Kreia as a mother in law. Wonder if he thought of THAT!

The Sith'ari
07-18-2006, 05:58 AM
@Rob and Jonathan Thanks for the support, I did feel a bit crushed as I really had something to add about Kreia and Brianna, though I know how trivial that might be.

But iggyman doesn't have to feel bad either, maybe you're just a nervous soul ;)

DarthScribble
07-18-2006, 01:58 PM
Ok, so I am new, so be gentle...

I came to this thread after playing through TSL 2xs, once light and once dark, both as a male PC. My point? I had a hunch there was something to the Kae=Kreia=Darth Traya thing long before I came here, and I just wanted to see what other people were thinking. I learned some new stuff, and got some things confirmed. I am still, however, not totally decided, as I feel we are all supposed to be (basically because game developers/writers aren't nearly as clever as we all like to think they are--knowing several and being one myself as my evidence).

I do have a couple questions, however...
1. Why would there be a Trayus Academy on Malachor V after the whole planet was destroyed?
b. Isn't it named 'for' Darth Traya?
c. Isn't it possible that (whoever she really is) Traya built/rebuilt this academy after the destruction of Malachor V? (thus placing the time line for Kreia/Kae more logically together?)

2. Doesn't Kreia only seem to remark/comment on things that she has experienced or familiar with (since the dark side is passion-driven, and even though she is supposed to be neutral, she is rather 'dark' in her attitude and comments)?
a. More specifically, I am thinking of the Echani 'mating ritual' of sparring. If she was Kae at one time, and hooked up with Yusanis (Echani, right?), that is likely how it all started--or more likely, the only way it could have--so she is speaking from experience, if not only to keep the Exile focussed on his mission and not the 'spoils of war'.
b. plus, IF this were the case, she may resent Brianna as a lightsider for various reasons. (possibly 'caused' her fall, represents a strong allegiance one way or the other for either Kreia/Traya or embodied in herself, and also could influence the Exile in the now)

3. Also, I have noted the cheeky movie references throughout TSL game (and, no unfortunately, I have not been able to play KotOR yet, so I may be out on some info), but let's face it. The SW cannonical series (movies I-VI) would seem to be poorly written in places, but upon scrutiny, are genious in their simplicity and logic within the bounds of a fantasy setting. My point? The similarities are amuck. Lines dropped and repeated, characters used, character architypes, etc. So what?
a. Aniken was thought deceased by Luke as stated by the people he trusted the most (Obi-wan and his Uncle Owen)
b. This was 'true'...from a certain point of view. (More Jedi half truths based on perception of the situation)
c. From a Jedi POV, Aniken did 'die' even as Darth Vader was born--but that point in between (actually, Jediphile's avatar gave me the idea--to see Aniken with both a blue and red saber would suggest he was teetering in the balance, trying to decide which side he would champion), when the decision had not been made yet, he really did not have a title. In fact, he would say at one point in the prequils that he deserved the title Master and was Obi-wan's (and most other Master's) better, but the Councel had broken their own rules (again!) to allow him to be on the councel (as a political move!) and remain the rank of Knight. (I'm getting there...)
d. So the question remains, in a time before solid 'rules' were in place (mostly), and the Councel seemed to be loosing control as well as redefining who and what the Jedi where, how difficult (easy) would it be for one jaded, powerful, and resourcefully manipulative woman to pull the strings of the government, and indeed the galaxy (Kreia did mention that she had held the galaxy by the throat at one time, yes?)?

I realize this doesn't 'solve' the issue, but it does, IMO add layers to Traya/Kreia and possibly Arren Kae. I'm mostly asking if I am skewed in my thinking, and well, let's face it, I love this stuff.
I was all over the Syfo-dias thing when it hit, and frankly, I still believe it was changed in mid-stream b/c people figured it out, but that's a creator's perogative I suppose. This topic may be a victim to the same series of rewrites and oversights that some other 'holes' in the SW Universe suffer from, but honestly, I think the unknown and mysterious stuff is what makes it tick.
Ok, have at me. :P

Clone L68362
07-18-2006, 02:29 PM
@Rob and Jonathan Thanks for the support, I did feel a bit crushed as I really had something to add about Kreia and Brianna, though I know how trivial that might be.

But iggyman doesn't have to feel bad either, maybe you're just a nervous soul ;)

So, are you saying I should feel bad? You mentioned igy but not me? You're mean. :(

But don't worry it's not like I'm serious...I just thought there was nothing further to add to the thread. But if the discussion must go on...

I'm sure there's lots of dialogue we haven't uncovered yet, but one thing that might give us a clue is anything about Yusanis and Revan. Since Revan killed him, Kreia might harbor some...anger...towards him. But since I'm not sure Yusanis is mentioned anywhere but in a few lines with the Handmaiden, I doubt we'll be able to figure out anything from that.

The Sith'ari
07-18-2006, 03:00 PM
So, are you saying I should feel bad? You mentioned igy but not me? You're mean. :(

Oh no, I just forgot about you since you weren't mentioned in Rob's post. You shouldn't feel bad either- we're all supposed to have fun here discussing KotOR. :)

RobQel-Droma
07-18-2006, 06:20 PM
Rob, i agree with alot of what you are saying, but as someone who is completly undecided on if this matter is true or not, why does shem have to change his position, as someone who is undecided neither argument has disproved the other, or compelled me to believe either side is right or wrong.

Sorry, I might have given you the wrong impression. ;) Here is my quote:

For instance, Shem comes to mind; not to bash on him, but he was one of the main debaters that was on the extreme 1 side. In fact, he hasn't changed at all.

I did not mean that Shem had to change his position by what I said, you might have misunderstood me. I just mentioned him because he was dead set against it, a "1" person according to Hai Wa- I mean cutmeister. Argh, I hate that. :D

So, are you saying I should feel bad? You mentioned igy but not me? You're mean.

He probably is. In fact, I'll make you feel bad for him. :dev7:

:lazerhead

How's that? :D

Anyways, I wasn't trying to make anyone feel bad - just trying to point some things out, that's all.

b. Isn't it named 'for' Darth Traya?

Unkown, as far as I know. In fact, it might be the other way around; I'm pretty sure that Kreia found the Trayus Academy, as opposed to founding it.

Jediphile
07-19-2006, 07:44 PM
Ok, so I am new, so be gentle...
1. Why would there be a Trayus Academy on Malachor V after the whole planet was destroyed?
b. Isn't it named 'for' Darth Traya?
c. Isn't it possible that (whoever she really is) Traya built/rebuilt this academy after the destruction of Malachor V? (thus placing the time line for Kreia/Kae more logically together?)

1a. Malachor V wasn't totally destroyed.
1b. Actually I think it's the other way around - she took her name from the academy and used the female form of "Trayus", which is then "Traya" (in latin).
1c. Nope, the academy was there long before that. Note that Revan studied the ancient Sith there. The Trayus Academy is where Revan learned of the threat of the true Sith. Kreia "took it over" after Revan had left.

See more here: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Trayus_Academy


2. Doesn't Kreia only seem to remark/comment on things that she has experienced or familiar with (since the dark side is passion-driven, and even though she is supposed to be neutral, she is rather 'dark' in her attitude and comments)?
a. More specifically, I am thinking of the Echani 'mating ritual' of sparring. If she was Kae at one time, and hooked up with Yusanis (Echani, right?), that is likely how it all started--or more likely, the only way it could have--so she is speaking from experience, if not only to keep the Exile focussed on his mission and not the 'spoils of war'.
b. plus, IF this were the case, she may resent Brianna as a lightsider for various reasons. (possibly 'caused' her fall, represents a strong allegiance one way or the other for either Kreia/Traya or embodied in herself, and also could influence the Exile in the now)


That's a difficult one to answer, because we just don't know Kreia's motives here. If she is indeed Kae, then this may be the last remnants of motherly concern, especially given what she knows she will have to put the exile through for the sake of her own agenda, and which she doesn't want her daughter to be hurt by. I must say that that I never felt she hated Brianna, although she does seem to want to give that impression. She clearly doesn't like Visas or Mical, though. I also find it interesting how she bascially plants the idea of training Brianna as a jedi in the exile's head by telling him that he shouldn't do so. What, this was a slip-of-the-tongue? By Kriea ?!? Right, tell me another... ;)

3. Also, I have noted the cheeky movie references throughout TSL game (and, no unfortunately, I have not been able to play KotOR yet, so I may be out on some info), but let's face it. The SW cannonical series (movies I-VI) would seem to be poorly written in places, but upon scrutiny, are genious in their simplicity and logic within the bounds of a fantasy setting. My point? The similarities are amuck. Lines dropped and repeated, characters used, character architypes, etc. So what?
a. Aniken was thought deceased by Luke as stated by the people he trusted the most (Obi-wan and his Uncle Owen)
b. This was 'true'...from a certain point of view. (More Jedi half truths based on perception of the situation)
c. From a Jedi POV, Aniken did 'die' even as Darth Vader was born--but that point in between (actually, Jediphile's avatar gave me the idea--to see Aniken with both a blue and red saber would suggest he was teetering in the balance, trying to decide which side he would champion), when the decision had not been made yet, he really did not have a title. In fact, he would say at one point in the prequils that he deserved the title Master and was Obi-wan's (and most other Master's) better, but the Councel had broken their own rules (again!) to allow him to be on the councel (as a political move!) and remain the rank of Knight. (I'm getting there...)
d. So the question remains, in a time before solid 'rules' were in place (mostly), and the Councel seemed to be loosing control as well as redefining who and what the Jedi where, how difficult (easy) would it be for one jaded, powerful, and resourcefully manipulative woman to pull the strings of the government, and indeed the galaxy (Kreia did mention that she had held the galaxy by the throat at one time, yes?)?

I realize this doesn't 'solve' the issue, but it does, IMO add layers to Traya/Kreia and possibly Arren Kae. I'm mostly asking if I am skewed in my thinking, and well, let's face it, I love this stuff.
I was all over the Syfo-dias thing when it hit, and frankly, I still believe it was changed in mid-stream b/c people figured it out, but that's a creator's perogative I suppose. This topic may be a victim to the same series of rewrites and oversights that some other 'holes' in the SW Universe suffer from, but honestly, I think the unknown and mysterious stuff is what makes it tick.
Ok, have at me. :P

Well, I can't really comment too much on this, because it's all speculation. Personally I see this rather a lot as you do. The really odd thing about Kreia is that she never quite lies to you, but neither does she tell the truth. Her lies are always 60% truth, and her truths are always 50% lies... She's very sly, cunning, and manipulating. In some ways, I like her rather a lot ;)

And yes, I think she's Kae. It fits well with her secrecy and her fall from both the jedi order and the sith. Kae was exiled from the jedi. Traya from the sith. Now there is only K(ae)+(T)raya=Kraya=Kreia...

DarthScribble
07-20-2006, 10:31 AM
You know, it's stuff like this that makes me appreciate the movies so much more. But unfortunately, in this media, unlike the movies, we can't just look at the cast listing and note that the same person played (or not) both characters as with Palpatine/Sidious.
That's probably one of the funniest quotables from the behind the scenes footage of the OT re-release set when Ian makes fun of the fact that people really should have known that Palpy was the Emporer all along the PT, but there was still a buzz about 'if' he was or not. He mentions that all one would have to do is check the casting. lol Too funny, and too bad we can't just do that with Kae as well. Grrrr.

Jediphile
07-20-2006, 06:06 PM
Well, Kae never makes an actual appearance in the game (unless the council really does recognize Kreia as Kae, I suppose), but is only mentioned by other people (Kreia, Brianna, and Mical), so there really would be no cast to check.

I mean, was Sifo-Dyas really Palpatine? We can't check that, since Sifo-Dyas is not in the film and so is not among the cast...

KyleOfHarpenden
07-22-2006, 12:26 PM
i thought the same thing but to be fair i thought that the handmaiden's mother would be a jedi gaurdian like her or maybe she got that from her fathers side, but it doesnt seem right really they dont look alike, and handaiden says'i honour the face of my mother'

Jediphile
07-22-2006, 06:37 PM
Others have noted that they don't look alike in that Kreia is old and ugly, while Brianna is young and beautiful, but note how Atton comments on her upon the escape from Peragus.

Atton: "Then she must be royalty, because she's got to be Queen of the Galaxy to bark out orders like that. Or maybe she's senile.I mean, how old do you think she is? She may have been good-looking once, but it takes some hard living to make creases like that."

The implication here is that Kreia was beautiful once, but that the reason why that is no longer the case is due the hardships she has faced. But think of a young and beautiful Kreia, and do you get closer to Brianna? I think so.

jonathan7
07-22-2006, 08:55 PM
To be honest im still undecided, hopefully the matter will be resloved in K3, but i was reading throught the chronicles and they do say that jedi master kreia went to malachor looking for he old apprentice revan and was consumed by the dark forces there.

im still undecided, but im unsue how kreia/kae related in terms of master, eg. why did revan hav 2 masters? it did happen on occasion, but then kreia wouldnt hav to blame herself for her failing (revan falling to the darkside) if there was also another person in charge of revan's training, on the otherside of that, wouldnt the chronicles say that jedi master kae went looking for her former padawan

Jediphile
07-23-2006, 09:15 AM
I always take the chronicles with a grain of salt. For example, they do say "jedi master Kreia", but then we know from Atris that "Kreia" is not her real name.

I take what is actually said in the game far more seriously. In this case I think "jedi master Kreia" simply means we're talking about Kreia, who had the power of a jedi master, since we know she was not truly a jedi master at that time - she had already been cast out of the jedi order. At best she was a grey jedi at the time.

Besides, it would have been very odd to mention Kae in the chronicles in any event, since you hear of her only during a few instances of the game that you might easily miss completely.

As for multiple masters, we already know that Revan had many masters, including Zhar, Dorak and others still. What is interesting is that both Kreia and Kae are said to have trained Revan as a padawan.

KyleOfHarpenden
07-26-2006, 08:42 AM
hmm ye kreia was beautifaul(aparently) and aparently kriea pretended to die at malacore5 and Brienas mum died there but u'd think that if kreia was her mum she'd be a bit nicer to her

Jediphile
07-26-2006, 09:51 AM
Kreia?!? Be nice to ANYONE? That'll happen right after we see pigs fly AND we have two tuesdays in a week... :D