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View Full Version : Clone pilots are aiming impaired?


j-muny
02-05-2006, 04:34 AM
I was watching epIII the other day and it just really dawned on me how much the clone pilots suck in combat. For instance each arc-170 has a tailgunner, but every fighter following anakin and obi wan was blown to hell. Are they really that terrible of an aim or what? i like the clone troopers but i would have liked to see some 170's holding it down chuck liddel style. Your thoughts? :clone:

MachineCult
02-05-2006, 08:40 AM
There were maybe hundreds of Droid Starfighters following them, they couldn't hit all of them.

Commander Obi-Wan
02-05-2006, 12:52 PM
There were maybe hundreds of Droid Starfighters following them, they couldn't hit all of them.

Exactly. The numbers of the Republic compared to the CIS was quite different. CIS had much more troopers.

Darth Andrew
02-05-2006, 02:29 PM
i like the clone troopers but i would have liked to see some 170's holding it down chuck liddel style.I have to agree with you. Though the overwhelming number of droid starfighters is a good point, why couldn't they hit many when they (and Obi-Wan and Anakin) were attacking head on? After all, the droids were clumped together.

j-muny
02-05-2006, 06:55 PM
yeh exactly what im saying, the droid star fighters were in like a clump behind them, JUST HOLD THE TRIGGER.

MachineCult
02-05-2006, 07:23 PM
They're better than those TIE retards.

Redtech
02-09-2006, 11:49 AM
The Wright brothers were better pilots.

Lieutenant_kettch
03-07-2006, 06:39 PM
it makes sense that they were outnumbered... one on one, an x-wing could take on a tie-fighter with little difficulty in a situation similar to that of BoC... (by that i mean each pilot knows the other pilot is there, and knows his location--no surprises) along the same thoughts, an ARC could do the same with a droid starfighter... however, if you consider the sheer difference in numbers, it doesn't really matter how good of a squadron you have, your pilots WILL, in fact, die... not all of them, but many of them, its just a fact of warfare... sure, your truly exceptional pilots will survive against all odds, being outnumbered, and/or being in an inferior ship (for example, anakin, fel, antilles, and others) but you will lose a lot of pilots, no matter how good or bad their aim

Redtech
03-08-2006, 09:49 AM
Your point does stand. I think the main argument is the fact that the clones don't seem to enjoy the idea of firing at closely tight packed droid formations. Although I dunno how going 1 on 1 or two on one they should have so much trouble. ESPECIALLY with tail gunners.

Guess it's dramatic effect.

Prime
03-08-2006, 12:25 PM
yeh exactly what im saying, the droid star fighters were in like a clump behind them, JUST HOLD THE TRIGGER.As if it were that simple.

Kensai
03-08-2006, 03:40 PM
Maybe it was to signify the decline of humanity and the superiority of the droids over human counterparts, allbeit clones.

Prime
03-08-2006, 05:57 PM
"Clones are immensely superior to droids."

Kurgan
03-09-2006, 02:54 AM
A matter of opinion in terms of combat usefulness... plus they're far more expensive and time consuming to produce!

Lieutenant_kettch
03-09-2006, 03:55 AM
A matter of opinion in terms of combat usefulness... plus they're far more expensive and time consuming to produce!

yes, they are more expensive and time conuming to produce... however, they have one very great advantage over droids, they have the ability to think, and improvise, and are very capable warriors even when put out on their own or in a chaotic situation, or without a commanding officer. droids tend to go haywire without their commanding officer (the droid "captains" or whatever they were called; the big droid disc-circle-ship-thingisms; or a wet to guide them)

sure, if you pit as many droids as you could into an arena against the same monetary value in clones, the droids will be victorious, why? because that takes away the advantage from the clones (or, more precisely, prevents it from being a disadvantage to the tinnies)

unfortunately, a big arena isn't the average battlefield, thus, why clones are superior warriors

j-muny
03-09-2006, 04:06 AM
i think what really gets to me is how much i dont like the droid army, its boring, plain. I've always been into the republic forces and imperial forces of the original trilogy. But seeing the clones humiliated in space kind of dissapointed me.

Redtech
03-09-2006, 10:13 AM
Personally, I would have nuked Coruscant. That shows my disspointment in the CIS, but heck, this is Lucas, it's star "wars" without the cruelty or sadism of warfare.

I ain't dissapointed the clones were in trouble, it felt "plot deviced" anyway.

Prime
03-09-2006, 11:44 AM
this is Lucas, it's star "wars" without the cruelty or sadism of warfare.http://www.cswu.cz/epizoda-iii/dvd/dv01.jpg

:)

Redtech
03-09-2006, 01:27 PM
Why is all the violence behind the scenes? Next you'll tell me that the Clones have a Guantanamo-style torture camp and that the Empire disintegrated millions using some sort of planet-sized superweapon! :P

MachineCult
03-09-2006, 03:27 PM
A whole army of Gungans got totally slaughtered by droids in Dark Horses Clone Wars series, theres a 2 page picture of a big pile of dead Gungans in a swamp.

Kurgan
03-09-2006, 04:04 PM
Which was not in the actual movie... I don't think we see any piles of dead gungans in TPM (though it has been awhile since I watched the DVD, so feel free to provide counter examples).

Sure we see them lifted off their feet and tossed by an explosion (presumed dead, since this isn't a cartoon), but the only "carnage" seen in the prequels is of droids (ROTS being the sole exception with the children in the Jedi temple and a few clones littered about on the planets).

As far as the droids being unable to "think" we see plenty of examples of them thinking. Behind the scenes they've become independent of the droid control ships (backup systems) after the events of TPM, but even in TPM we have examples, like the droid who goes "uhh, err.. um... that doesn't compute... you're under arrest!" to Qui Gon after he announces he's leaving for coruscant with the Naboo personel. Take a look at the Super Battle Droids in ROTS. Sure they have stupid squeeky voices and they aren't as smart as R2D2 or Threepio (two droids who do a ton of thinking and outsmart plenty of biological entities in the movies), but that's because they're the bad guys. ;)

Clones, however resourceful, still have to obey orders, even if those orders are foolish, and we know the clones are so loyal they'll follow even suicidal orders given by incompetent generals, at least in the movies. Despite the pride of the Kaminoeans in their work, it seems the biggest draw of the clones, besides looking cool, is their superior weaponry and vehicle support. Their tactics improve drastically in ROTS, but they still get mowed down by droids in actual combat and are given as good as they get. We've all wondered why the Empire switched to clones instead of droids, but it seems like the only real answer is that the people who controlled most of the droid production were defeated. But then all those droid armies would become property of the Empire, so why didn't they use them later? The real reason is that Lucas didn't have the CGI tech to show massive armies of droids. The only droids we see in the classic trilogy under the Empire are the usual protocol an astromech droids, and the occasional mouse droid or floating security camera. Dark Troopers are in the EU and various other "war droids" that mostly surface as secret projects or long after the Empire's fall.

Perhaps there was just public sentiment and stigma against droids among the masses after all the propaganda of the Clone Wars (that's one way to interpret the scene where the droids are kicked out of the Mos Eisley Cantina, though it might just be local prejudice, since Tatooine isn't part of the Republic, and only nominally part of the Empire, if that).

In any case, one could argue that after the Clone Wars, the Empire didn't need droids OR clones, since both are supposed to be for large scale land wars, which really weren't occuring (the battles with the Rebellion were tiny by comparison, and could be more easily won with fleet engagements). If pacifying populations was what was needed, they'd need massive more amounts of troopers than they had, meaning they'd have to setup local populations, etc. But I'm rambling now.

All things being equal droids just have too many advantages over clones in combat, unless you deliberately cripple the droids to maximize their shortcomings. The rest is mere propaganda value.

MachineCult
03-09-2006, 05:32 PM
yeh exactly what im saying, the droid star fighters were in like a clump behind them, JUST HOLD THE TRIGGER.
It's not a f***ing video game, you have no idea what you are talking about.

Darth Andrew
03-09-2006, 07:05 PM
I don't see why people are still attacking a month-old post. :confused:

When you think about it, it really doesn't matter whether the clone pilots were great or not, since they got so little screen time. :(

Prime
03-10-2006, 03:13 PM
Why is all the violence behind the scenes? So the film doesn't get a restricted rating. Adults don't buy Star Wars toys (well not the ones who don't post in the collectors forum). :)

But then again, we do see lots of dismemberment (three heads even), and someone burned alive.

j-muny
03-11-2006, 03:21 AM
I don't see why people are still attacking a month-old post. :confused:

When you think about it, it really doesn't matter whether the clone pilots were great or not, since they got so little screen time. :(


excuse us for offending you in anyway, im so sorry. idiot

Kurgan
03-11-2006, 04:55 AM
Was that really necessary? :P

Darth Andrew
03-11-2006, 01:44 PM
excuse us for offending you in anyway, im so sorry. idiotActually, I was defending your post:
yeh exactly what im saying, the droid star fighters were in like a clump behind them, JUST HOLD THE TRIGGER.that happens to be over a month old. Just sayin'. ;)

Redtech
03-12-2006, 12:30 PM
No, USE MISSILES!

There you go. Pfft, these guys don't know the first rule of air-air combat. If they can't see you, then they can't tell where you're shooting from.

As for the violence, well, I suppose it is to make the film "Kiddy" although the argument that "adults don't buy Star Wars" falls a bit flat, I mean, I bet more adults buy Star Wars toys then kids! Unless the next generation are 100% dweebs..oh well, less threat of being beat up in my old age then.

Kurgan
03-12-2006, 05:35 PM
Yeah I'd imagine only rich kids can afford to keep up collections with adults (who have jobs and thus more money). Even kids often get their parents to buy them stuff, so it's often adults buying the stuff than kids...

Prime
03-12-2006, 10:43 PM
My "adults don't buy SW toys" was in jest. ;)

Redtech
03-13-2006, 08:59 AM
And that is why all of us need to learn how to become sarcastic online. Heck, I can't do it IRL well either.

Mind you, I want to buy a Tri-fighter model. They do have a certain "elegance" in form.

Kurgan
03-14-2006, 12:11 AM
Yeah, sorry I had to pawn my Sarcasm Detector... ;(

Justus
03-14-2006, 10:01 AM
They were basically swarmed with fighters. Plus it appears that the ARC-170 isn't as agile as the droid fighters, or even the Jedi starfighters so it may have been difficult for them to do evasive maneuvers against the droid fighters. Not much they can do if they are swarmed with fighters, the one clone pilot made it pretty obvious they were overwhelmed "They're all over me...get them off m...*static*".

Even though I like the ARC-170, it is a bulky fighter - would make an easy target.

Prime
03-14-2006, 02:07 PM
Even though I like the ARC-170, it is a bulky fighter - would make an easy target.It appears to be more akin to the fighter/bombers of WW2.

Justus
03-14-2006, 04:33 PM
It's possible some of those ARC's got hit with some buzz droids, so that could account as to why they were doomed. I haven't read the novel, so I don't know what it says about the situation.

Kurgan
03-14-2006, 09:49 PM
"They're all over me...get them off m...*static*".


Or as he says in Backstroke of the West, "He's in my behind!"

Redtech
03-15-2006, 10:11 AM
Am I allowed to make gay innenuendo in this board?

Oh yeah, I've skimmed the book, tends to add that they were swarmed. Pretty much Tie-fighter strategies, but with decent ships.

Tri>>>Tie after all.

JMAS
03-31-2006, 06:01 PM
Why does this bother people so much? It makes perfect sense.

Who are the clone troopers the predecessors of?

Stormtroopers. And we all know Stormtroopers couldn't hit the broad side of a bantha to save their life.

http://img347.imageshack.us/img347/3843/helmetbones10245qq.th.jpg (http://img347.imageshack.us/my.php?image=helmetbones10245qq.jpg)

Darth Andrew
03-31-2006, 06:34 PM
And yet the clones absolutely slaughtered the droids on Utapau.

Darth Alec
03-31-2006, 06:48 PM
Because the movies mean that the stormtroopers would miss Alderaan with the DS, but clones have to win. In th EU there are loads of Imperial victorys.

RaV™
04-09-2006, 02:09 AM
Well the Clone Pilots aim was on fine mark when they killed Plo Koon over Cato Neimoidia. So it worked for something didn't it?

Darth Ru
04-27-2006, 11:29 AM
There is an explanation for the clone's lack of space combat proficiency. And although never really explained in the movies, the recent Starwars game, Battlefront II, in its cut scenes, explains that the republic clones didn't have enough pilots, so many of the pilots where actually ground combat troops that where pressed into filling pilot roles and given crash courses in space combat. Their clone training didn't really cover space combat or was glazed over in favor of the ground combat. When we see the clone trainging/growing facility on Kamino in AOTC I don't remember seeing any of the clones doing space fighter simulations, which I thought was kind of odd. But there you have it, most of the pilots wheren't really pilots at all. Its like taking a marine that has been trained to hold his own with a squad and saying hey we don't have enough pilots, here read this manual on how to fly an F-16 and get up there and take out some MIGs.

PoiuyWired
04-28-2006, 03:07 PM
well, actually its the weaponary design's fault.

If droid fighters are always cramped together, then weaponary with AoE effect would work on them more efficiently. So it would only be reasonable if they have some "time bomb" like weapon dropping out from the tail of those arc 170s

Elukka
05-06-2006, 06:15 PM
Well, if the Republic were to use weapons like the Slave 1's bomb, the Droid fighters probably wouldn't be flying cramped together.

PR-0927
05-17-2006, 04:42 PM
Well, the reason they died is probably that they really couldn't hit every fighter in the swarm of droid fighters.

The Jango Fett clones were extremely...elite and well trained. The Imperial Stormtrooper ranks are filled from new recruits or their clones. The clone pool got diluted. They are not as good.

- Majin Revan

JoesGuy
07-16-2006, 07:05 AM
Let's just say the shear numbers of Vulture Droids pwnd those clone pilots. =D

RC-1162
07-16-2006, 02:02 PM
They're better than those TIE retards.

MC, they are those TIE retards :xp:

Pho3nix
07-16-2006, 05:00 PM
Actually that whole sequence was badly made, some dogfights would have been nice. :|

JoesGuy
07-17-2006, 06:09 AM
I know what you mean Pho3nix. It was to centralized around Ani and Obi.

St. Jimmy
07-17-2006, 08:14 AM
It'd be cool if they made like, an extra scene that follows a squad of clones for a bit during a battle.

Nedak
07-17-2006, 04:21 PM
This is how I see it. Lucas made it so that clones were only good sometimes, he made it so Stormtroopers stink at shooting and die way to fast, He never showed any blood or gore during any battles (which ticks me off). The way I see it he messed up 1,2,3, and 6. I love the movies but I have to admit that he should have considerd more things when making the movies.