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Beast-Thrasher
02-06-2006, 05:42 PM
I was just thinking that this would be a neat debate to talk about but I would always wonder what type of Jedi were Revan and Malak and then I saw the council and was like mmm I wonder what Master Dorak(I think that's his name), Master Vandar, Master Vrook and Master Zhar. After I played KOTOR 2 however, you find out that Vrook is a counsular...A very mean and bitter Counsular...Sheesh somebody needs to get l....uhhh moving on and After playing KOTOR 2 I wondered what Master Atris and Master Vash. So my questions is. What type of Jedi's do you think the Masters were, as for Revan and Malak what type of Jedi do you think they were before they went red? Can you find any clues that point to an obvious choice?

- Revan:
- Malak:
- Master Dorak:
- Master Vandar:
- Master Zhar:
- Master Atris:
- Master Vash:

RobQel-Droma
02-06-2006, 06:22 PM
BTW, wrong forum. Probably should be in some place like Telos Tourist Beaureu (sp?), or Republic Newsfeed.

- Malak was obviously a Jedi Guardian. He wielded a enormous saber and wasn't much for brains, just brawn. Although I think he is said to be a Guardian/Sith Lord...

- Revan is up for debate, since he was whatever you wanted him to be (and there was already a thread for this in Republic Newsfeed).

- Master Vandar was Jedi Consular/Master. Yoda was Consular (I think), and since Vandar character wields a green lightsaber and has tremendous force skills I think that pretty much implies Consular.

- Master Vash I would guess to be a Sentinel/Watchmen, but I don't know.

- Zhar I think is a Guardian, but just for the fact that he has a blue saber (I think). You don't really know anything about him.

As for the others, I have no clue. You only talk to Dorak once, and you never can know what kind of Jedi he is. Atris I'm not sure about either, since all you know is that she is weak and wields a blue saber. I started a thread about this sort of thing in Ahto (but with every single Jedi/Sith), but these never came up.

Beast-Thrasher
02-06-2006, 07:49 PM
Sorry for putting this in the wrong forum, new guy to these forums, but when you stat that Vandar wielded a green lightsaber and Zhar a blue one...uhh well could you tell me when that happens because I never remember any one of them stating that in the game or beaming up their sabers? It's been awhile since I've played but still, I have no recolection of that hapenning.

Beast-Thrasher
02-06-2006, 07:52 PM
Maybe I should of specified. As goes for Revan I meant what you thought he might of been before you were playing him and before he ever become a Sith Lord. The clues you get from the Masters of Revan, Kreia describing Revan, and the videos you see with Revan.

Master Dakari
02-06-2006, 08:27 PM
- Revan: Jedi Guardian
- Malak: Jedi Guardian
- Master Dorak:
- Master Vandar: Jedi Guardian
- Master Zhar:
- Master Atris: Jedi Consular
- Master Vash:

I got all of these from the .utc files of the KOTOR Tool. I had previously uninstalled K1 so I can't look through their files. Reguardless, from K2, they has Revan, Malak, and Vandar as Jedi Guardians, and Atris as a Jedi Consualr.

For some reason they did not have Kavar, Vrook, Zez-Kai Ell or Vash listed. I don't know why. But I would venture to guess that Zez-Kai Ell was a Guardian and Vash a Sentinel. Let me reinstall K1 and see what I can dig up.

The Doctor
02-06-2006, 10:43 PM
I think Dorak is a Consular. It just feels right, IMO.

Char Ell
02-07-2006, 07:54 AM
KotOR
- Revan: Jedi Guardian (n_darthrevan.utc + 3 more Revan .utc files)
- Malak: Jedi Guardian (n_darthmalak.utc + a bunch of other Malak .utc files)
- Master Dorak: Jedi Guardian (dan13_dorak.utc)
- Master Vandar: Jedi Guardian (dan13_vandar.utc)
- Master Vrook: Jedi Guardian (dan13_vrook.utc)
- Master Zhar: Jedi Consular (dan13_zhar.utc)
TSL
- Master Atris: Jedi Consular (p_atris.utc + many more .utc files)
- Master Kavar: Jedi Guardian (npc_kavar.utc)
- Master Vash: Jedi Guardian (vash.utc)
- Master Vrook: Jedi Guardian (npc_vrook.utc + more .utc files)
- Master Zez-Kai Ell: Jedi Guardian (npc_vrook002.utc) Curiously enough zez.utc has Zez-Kai Ell as a soldier :eyeraise:

I remember the Revan's true class debate on Republic Newsfeed and well I should since I was the one that started it. :D IIRC deathdisco pointed out that the .utc for Revan had Revan as a Jedi Guardian and that pretty much ended that debate. Now that I've taken the time to review the .utc files for the masters in KotOR it seems to me that the devs didn't really take the time to match the .utc file with the way the master was portrayed in-game. If you installed the 1.03 patch on KotOR then the masters wore different color robes. I thought the red robes represented Jedi Guardians, the blue ones Jedi Sentinels, and the brown ones Jedi Consulars. If that were the case then the only master whose .utc file matched his robe was Vrook. ***shrugs***

Timberwolf 21
02-07-2006, 05:54 PM
Kotor rulz!!!!

Det. Bart Lasiter
02-07-2006, 08:17 PM
I always had Revan pegged as a Jedi Consular...

Prime
02-07-2006, 08:30 PM
Kotor rulz!!!!Please attempt to contribute to the discuss and not just spam the thread. This is a warning. ;)

Master Kavar
02-07-2006, 09:12 PM
While the UTC files are usually pretty useful in cases like this, they can't be taken as "canon" all the time. While it's safe to say that Malak is a Jedi Guardian (since that's what class he is when you fight him), Bastila's mother and Mission's brother are certainly not Jedi, even though their UTC files say otherwise.

Sometimes characters were just given random classes because they were never meant to be used in battle, or in some cases just because they wanted the character to behave a certain way. You'll find the vast majority of Jedi/Sith characters in both games are Guardians, simply because they wanted the character to have high HP, attack, damage, etc.

If I had to give Revan an official Jedi Class prior to the mind wipe, I would pick Consular. Everyone who talks about Revan will also bring up how powerful Revan was in the Force, and I think Revan probably took after Kreia a bit.

Beast-Thrasher
02-07-2006, 11:31 PM
That's odd that in the files they would say Vrook is a Guardian but from what I feel and see, he's most definatly a Consular.

As for me I thought that Revan would of been along the lines of a Guardian or Consular because it is mentioned that he was strong in the force and also exellent in combat so hey maybe he was a sentinel and just mastered both, he may of had some spare time. As for Malak I would agree that he most likely fits as a Guardian because when you fight him his attacks do so much damage and he does the force jump which I just related to Guardian because that's the special ability Guardians get, anywho. As for Sentinels I can picture Vash, Dorak and Zez-kai Ell as being them just because to me it seems to fit and because Sentinels are suppose to be in the middle of what Guardians and Counsolars and Zez-Kai Ell kept a low profile while still doing some good and figuring things out from the shadows. Zhar I can see as a Counsularby the way he talks when your in training. Vandar I would think would be a Guardian because everyone relates Vandar's species with Yoda and him having a green lightsaber, so I would think that they would just want something different. As for Atris I believe she was a Guardian and believed in fighting for what was right but had her spirit borken and was too weak or not productive enough as a Guardian so the Jedi stuck her as historian.

vince56
02-08-2006, 06:07 AM
That's odd that in the files they would say Vrook is a Guardian but from what I feel and see, he's most definatly a Consular.


If you play darkside in KOTOR 2, he's the hardest bad guy in the game. Most definitely a Jedi Guardian.

Darth Windu
02-08-2006, 06:28 AM
I trust the utc files. Sure, some minor characters may have had odd classes, but clearly each Jedi Master has a specific jedi class, though I find it odd that none of them were Sentinels.

Master Dakari
02-09-2006, 11:29 AM
If you play darkside in KOTOR 2, he's the hardest bad guy in the game.

Shoot. You're not telling me anything I didn't already know. That turd wiped my ass from from wall to wall and was still going. However, .utc aside, I still consider him a Jedi Consular. Heck, even Yoda is a Consular but he was the tops when it came to lightsaber combat.

This just simply goes to show you that there are none these classes in the "real" SW universe. But I can understand why they are used in a RPG so I have no argument.

Again, .utc aside, these are the classes I thought the K1 masters were...
Master Dorak: Jedi Sentinel
Master Vandar: Jedi Consular
Master Vrook: Jedi Consular
Master Zhar: Jedi Guardian

And I considered the K2 masters...
Master Atris: Jedi Consular (Sith Lord)
Master Vrook: Jedi Consular
Master Zez-Kai Ell: Jedi Sentinel
Master Kavar: Jedi Guardian
Master Vash: Jedi Sentinel

But then again, these are only my opinions.

Bastila's mother and Mission's brother are certainly not Jedi, even though their UTC files say otherwise.
Well, Bastila's mother was wearing a Council Member's robe. And her template is a Female Council Member. I find that pretty ammusing. Maybe she's like Ulic's and Cay's mother who was a Jedi Master (and Council Member) but sent her sons to study under another master (Arca Jeth) when they opened up to the Force. Who knows...

Now Griff, on the other hand, I guess you could say he's Atton's Twi'lek twin brother. :xp:

Point Man
02-09-2006, 12:11 PM
Without going by the .utc files, here's what I believe the masters to be:
Revan: Guardian. He was too impulsive and action-oriented to be anything else. Regarding the "strong in the Force" argument, a guardian can be strong in the Force, too. How do you think you get to be so great at deflecting blaster bolts from multiple opponents while attacking the guy in front of you?
Malak: Guardian.
Dorak: Consular. In my mind, the chroniclers/historians are all consulars. Wisdom and understanding is their focus.
Vandar: Consular or sentinel. I can't make up my mind on him. I probably lean more toward consular for him.
Vrook: Guardian. He's too dogmatic to be any other class. The other classes seek wisdom and understanding. Vrook does not seek to understand anything other than his preconceptions.
Zhar: Sentinel. He seems to have a balance between fighting and peaceful pursuits.
Atris: Consular.
Kavar: Guardian.
Vash: Sentinel.
Zez-Kai Ell: Sentinel.

I agree with Hai-Wan: the in-game portrayals did not match up with the .utc files. I think I have to go with their behavior (especially since I don't know how to access the .utc files).

Diego Varen
02-09-2006, 12:47 PM
Without accessing the utc files (I don't even though how to access them), here's what I think:

Revan: Guardian (In The Mandalorian Wars), because he lead the Jedi in the Mandalorian Wars, Consular (In KOTOR), because if Light he turned away from the Dark Side.
Malak: Guardian because he is a fighter and all he cares about is brute force.
Vrook: Consular, because he is a wise Jedi Master.
Vandar: Consular, because he is also a wise Jedi Master.
Dorak: Consular, because he is a historian.
Zhar: Sentinel, because he is pretty much what jimbo fett 66 said.
Atris: Guardian, because she focuses on combat and I've seen pictures of her with a Blue Lightsaber.
Kavar: Guardian, because Canderous (Mandalore) says it's the famed Jedi Guardian.
Vash: Sentinel, because she is like Zhar.
Zez-Kai Ell: Guardian, because he has a double-bladed Lightsaber and not many people wielded a double-bladed Lightsaber around that time, except him and Bastila.

Point Man
02-09-2006, 01:13 PM
Vrook: Consular, because he is a wise Jedi Master.
You really see Vrook as wise? I see him as rash and arrogant.

Diego Varen
02-09-2006, 01:16 PM
I agree with that. To be honest he annoyed me. Espically when I was fighting him on TSL.

Vaelastraz
02-09-2006, 02:52 PM
Hm
I'd say if your connection to the force is strong, your force powers and your skill with the lightsaber is equally strong. So Jedi Like Revan would be everything :D

But of course in a RPG you need different classes (and i like that fact) so i would say:

Revan: Guardian/Consular: lol yeah. His lightsaber fighting is undoubtedly great, but remember what HK tells you in TSL about Revan's tactics how to win wars, kill jedi and so on? Iam sure he has the intelligence and wisdom of a Consular!

Malak: Iam pretty sure he is a Guardian

Vrook: hm.. Guardian! IMO the color of the saber or wielding one/2/staff doesnt say anything..

Kavar: Guardian

Vash: i cant tell

Atris: Sentinel, without stealth though

Zhar: Consular, he's a mentor

Dorak: Sentinel

Vandar: the only thing you ever get to know about him is that he is wise -> Consular

Zez-Kai Ell: Sentinel, iam sure of that

:D Darth Nihilus: Evil abnomination of the Dark side, iam pretty sure of that too

Master Dakari
02-09-2006, 03:50 PM
Revan: Guardian. He was too impulsive and action-oriented to be anything else. Regarding the "strong in the Force" argument, a guardian can be strong in the Force, too.

Actually, according to the RPG rulebooks, being strong in the Force is a really big requirement for Guardians. For the same reasons Vaelastraz said.

I have changed my views, due to some convincing from a few posts.

Master Dorak: Jedi Consular
Master Vandar: Jedi Consular
Master Vrook: Jedi Guardian (great argument to support this)
Master Zhar: Jedi Sentinel

I originally wanted to put Zhar as a Sentinel and Dorak as a Consular, but with Vrook as a Consular I would then have Consular, Consular, Consular, and Sentinel. No Guardian... not a very balanced Council. But anyway, it's fixed now.

Char Ell
02-10-2006, 12:51 AM
Master Dorak: Jedi Consular
Master Vandar: Jedi Consular
Master Vrook: Jedi Guardian (great argument to support this)
Master Zhar: Jedi Sentinel
Yes, this is how I saw the Jedi Masters in KotOR. But I've determined it's not worth spending too much of my time figuring out a character's Jedi class. It's understandably part of the game but I've come to think of class as more representative of a character's personality traits than anything else.

YertyL
02-10-2006, 07:31 AM
Just about the "guardians are dumb brutes without Force powers" thing:
IMO both intelligence and strength in the Force are equally needed by all the jedi classes... the difference is more in attitude than in attributes.
In TSL, the disciple tells the exile how he remembers the exile teaching him to hear the music in the movement of a lightsaber (back when he was still a padawan on Dantooine)
This is IMO a good example that guardians are truly not brutes.They also do not necessarily act rashly or unwise if they employ a more martial attitude towards the Dark Siders - it may be just as unwise of a counselor to try to bring back someone, leaving him an opening to be struck down. See Master Kavar as an example - I think it is safe to say that he,compared to the other counsel members, showed an equal or bigger amount of wisdomand understanding towards you in TSL.
Also, remeber that the being with the biggest Force-potential ever, Anakin Skywalker, was a guardian.

Prime
02-10-2006, 01:52 PM
Guardians still use discression for when to use their abilities. They use diplomacy as much as possible.

Char Ell
02-10-2006, 07:56 PM
Also, remeber that the being with the biggest Force-potential ever, Anakin Skywalker, was a guardian.See, this is where I think people go astray. :) I just don't think it makes much sense to apply character classes used in KotOR to SW movie characters. Where has an authoritative SW figure (e.g. George Lucas) stated that Anakin Skywalker was a Jedi Guardian? If this has happened somewhere then I would appreciate someone showing me where. I would be surprised if it has.

Anakin excelled in lightsaber combat, agreed? He was rash and fearlessly charged into the fight. So yeah, then he must have been a Jedi Guardian since they are the combat-focused class.
But wait, Anakin was also a skilled pilot and built/fixed droids, pod racers, etc. so then he must have been a Jedi Sentinel as they are the skills-focused Jedi class.
Hold on a sec, wasn't Anakin really strong in the Force with a midichlorian count higher than even Master Yoda? Anakin's ability to use the Force far outpaced most of the other Jedi of his time. So then of course he must have been a Jedi Consular since they are the force-focused class.

Anyway, I just wanted to illustrate my point. If someone considers Anakin Skywalker a Jedi Guardian then that is their prerogative. I just don't see the logic in taking something designed for an RPG and applying it to the movies. RedHawke or someone else with extensive background and knowledge of RP would be more suited to elaborate on this but the way I see it RP character classes were introduced to vary the game experience, to provide balance in the game by having characters with strengths AND weaknesses, thereby encouraging working with other characters that had strengths in the areas where your character was weak. But when telling a story via a medium like movies the same rules don't necessarily apply. Apples and oranges. :)

Master Dakari
02-11-2006, 12:15 AM
Anyway, I just wanted to illustrate my point. If someone considers Anakin Skywalker a Jedi Guardian then that is their prerogative. I just don't see the logic in taking something designed for an RPG and applying it to the movies.

Thank you for making this observation. Many don't.

The RPG classes added to the characters from the movies are only done so in the case that some might use them in their personal RPG. But they are not to be taken as their actual class; simply because the RPG classes do not exist in the 'real' SW universe.

Clone L68362
02-11-2006, 12:20 AM
I always thought that:

Dorak: Consular
Zhar: Guardian
Vandar: Sentinel
Vrook: Consular

And the K2 Masters were:

Atris: Consular
Vash: Sentinel
Kavar: Guardian
Zez-Kai-El: Guardian

If Revan were to ever have an establishes class, Sentinel/Watchman would be best. Malak was obviously Gaurdian.

RedHawke
02-11-2006, 01:12 AM
RedHawke or someone else with extensive background and knowledge of RP would be more suited to elaborate on this but the way I see it RP character classes were introduced to vary the game experience, to provide balance in the game by having characters with strengths AND weaknesses, thereby encouraging working with other characters that had strengths in the areas where your character was weak. But when telling a story via a medium like movies the same rules don't necessarily apply. Apples and oranges. :)
You are quite correct. :)

Remember folks RPG's are meant to be a way for us to play a character or role in the source materials 'universe', be it a Fantasy, SUperhero, Sci-Fi, etc. RPG systems have to deviate from the source materials to achieve something called game balance. D20 Star Wars deviates quite a bit from the source materials to allow the Star Wars universe to be depicted in its very confining game system, this is the problem here.

YertyL
02-11-2006, 06:25 AM
See, this is where I think people go astray. :) I just don't think it makes much sense to apply character classes used in KotOR to SW movie characters. Where has an authoritative SW figure (e.g. George Lucas) stated that Anakin Skywalker was a Jedi Guardian? If this has happened somewhere then I would appreciate someone showing me where. I would be surprised if it has.
*sigh*
Where has an authorative SW/KOTOR figure stated that Malak was a guardian? Still, I believe we can assume he was. Of course, this is speculation, but I cannot see how speculation about a movie should be worse than speculation about a game ...


Anakin excelled in lightsaber combat, agreed? He was rash and fearlessly charged into the fight. So yeah, then he must have been a Jedi Guardian since they are the combat-focused class.
But wait, Anakin was also a skilled pilot and built/fixed droids, pod racers, etc. so then he must have been a Jedi Sentinel as they are the skills-focused Jedi class.
Hold on a sec, wasn't Anakin really strong in the Force with a midichlorian count higher than even Master Yoda? Anakin's ability to use the Force far outpaced most of the other Jedi of his time. So then of course he must have been a Jedi Consular since they are the force-focused class.

Like I said in my earlier posts, the "class" of a jedi is IMO less determined by his skill than by his attitude. Would you say that Yoda was a guardian because he was the swordmaster of the jedi order? (at least this seems to be what the Ani-Obi-conversation in Ep2 indicates). I do not think so.
If Anakin had done the test you do in KOTOR, judging from his attitude I am pretty sure he would have ended up as a guardian, so, in my eyes, he is a "guardian", even if this class does not exist as a title in the movies.

Hallucination
02-11-2006, 01:06 PM
*sigh*
Where has an authorative SW/KOTOR figure stated that Malak was a guardian? Still, I believe we can assume he was. Of course, this is speculation, but I cannot see how speculation about a movie should be worse than speculation about a game ...
I think it was pretty obvious he was a guardian. The fact that he was a brute kind of pointed to it. And he also used a guardian-only ability (Force Jump).

TheGreenGoblin
02-11-2006, 02:18 PM
Ultimately, there's little information to definitely peg Revan down to one particular class, all of the information the game provides can be interpreted differently.

PoiuyWired
02-11-2006, 05:15 PM
Guardians still use discression for when to use their abilities. They use diplomacy as much as possible.

Negotiation with a lightsaber...

Well, since NPCs are not created with the same rules as with PCs they don't need to be min-maxed for the highest bonus. So yes even guardians can be nice and wise.