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The Source
02-10-2006, 03:20 PM
Why Obsidian may not be designing KotOR 3 or any Lucas Arts projects.
(Theory only)

Even though I have been hearing intresting things about the possible existance of a KotOR 3, I don't think there will be a concept developed until the year's end. Every time I visit Lucas Arts, they seem to be too busy with: Battlefront, Galaxies, Empire at War, etc... I don't think that they know what to do with the series, and Obsidian's unprofessional handling of the aftermath. I believe this will make Lucas Arts take their time. I would too. If you think about it, KotOR 2 is a major public relations mess. I know many people don't see it that way, but look at all the event that occured between now and its release in February: 1. Fans find cut content. 2. Obsidian explaining the cut content. 3. Article released by Obsidian about their side of the story. 4. We never truely hear what Lucas Arts is thinking. 5. The Movie and Sound patch was debated over for three months. 6. The questionable sales. 7. Obsidian's story/script was not taken by a good amount of the Star wars fans. (People complaining about the story not being complete.) 8. An online petition, which fans put together about making KotOR 3, or the other one that is out their somewhere about fixing KotOR 2.

Releasing a comicbook maybe their way in taking steps to heal the franchise. We never will know what actually happened between Obsidian and Lucas Arts behind closed doors.

All I know is that:
1. If the developer I hired didn't meet the deadline I give them, with the quality that people expect from my products, I would not hired them again.

2. If a developer releases an article about the flaws found in my product, and they created the flaws, and then tried to turn the public against me, that would be the end of our buisness arangements.

Buisness is buisness...

igyman
02-10-2006, 03:49 PM
I agree with you completely. I don't understand why Lucas Arts even chose to give the KoTOR 2 project to Obsidian instead of Bioware, since Bioware was the one that made the first part and did an excellent job, by the way!

I have nothing personal against Obsidian (why would I have), they had good ideas, but they weren't very good at turning them into reality.

Jackel
02-10-2006, 03:58 PM
I agree with you completely. I don't understand why Lucas Arts even chose to give the KoTOR 2 project to Obsidian instead of Bioware, since Bioware was the one that made the first part
Bioware refused to do it, thats why. They really didn't want to do the second game. Or any IP's that belonged to another company. They were ready to get on with their on ideas and were doing them. LA came to them with K2 and Bioware suggested Obsidian make it.

igyman
02-10-2006, 04:03 PM
Damn. How did you find that out? Don't take this the wrong way, it's just hard to believe that Bioware would refuse to make a sequel, if they made a great first part of the game.

Jackel
02-10-2006, 04:07 PM
It is, and has been, common knowledge for a long time. It was never kept secret that BW didn't want to make the sequal. And it's not really that hard to believe. Just look at id with Quake and Wolfenstein. They farmed those out to other companies even though they had created the first games in the series and owned the copywrites etc to them.

igyman
02-10-2006, 04:10 PM
OK, but I'd still like to read an article/announcement/whatever that says that. I'm really surprised by this, since all I heard is that Lucas Arts decided to give the project to Obsidian and that some of the most experienced RPG developers are at Obsidian.

The Source
02-10-2006, 06:29 PM
OK, but I'd still like to read an article/announcement/whatever that says that. I'm really surprised by this, since all I heard is that Lucas Arts decided to give the project to Obsidian and that some of the most experienced RPG developers are at Obsidian.
I would like to see evidence as well. I keep reading that BioWare decided not to work on KotOR 2, but I have never seen an article about it.

Point Man
02-11-2006, 02:37 PM
That's why LucasArts needs to hire the people who make all the excellent mods for KOTOR and TSL to develop KOTOR 3. :bluidea:

Darth Sun_Tzu
02-11-2006, 02:45 PM
It is, and has been, common knowledge for a long time. It was never kept secret that BW didn't want to make the sequal. And it's not really that hard to believe. Just look at id with Quake and Wolfenstein. They farmed those out to other companies even though they had created the first games in the series and owned the copywrites etc to them.

Thats what i heard also. They had Jade Empire on the go and another in development so they did not want TSL. As for a press release saying so, I'd have to look, it has been some time.

Vibro
02-11-2006, 02:53 PM
If LA don't have a developer by now they will certainly be looking for one. They won#t want to waste any time at all. The KOTOR series has a huge fanbase and is a big earner, they wouldn't turn that down. I believe they will go with Obsidian again.

The Source
02-11-2006, 03:24 PM
Thats what i heard also. They had Jade Empire on the go and another in development so they did not want TSL. As for a press release saying so, I'd have to look, it has been some time.
That would be an intresting read.

Clone L68362
02-11-2006, 03:28 PM
That's why LucasArts needs to hire the people who make all the excellent mods for KOTOR and TSL to develop KOTOR 3. :bluidea:

Except that we'd all be bickering over whether or not to play as Revan or a new PC, and the game will never be finished :p

Phaedra36
02-11-2006, 03:37 PM
I have a simple solution, flip a penny or do eeny-meeny-miney-mo! Lmao.

Darth Sun_Tzu
02-11-2006, 05:31 PM
That would be an intresting read.

Can't find anything now but that was 2 years ago. Anyway i think the infomation was mostly passed down through the forums. I guess that we will never know for sure now whether it was just assumed or official. To be honest i can't be bothered to try to find anything, its not that important but i can say that the impression i got was that bioware did not want it because they were too busy with their own projects.

The Source
02-11-2006, 05:34 PM
Can't find anything now but that was 2 years ago. Anyway i think the infomation was mostly passed down through the forums. I guess that we will never know for sure now whether it was just assumed or official. To be honest i can't be bothered to try to find anything, its not that important but i can say that the impression i got was that bioware did not want it because they were too busy with their own projects.
If I had an opportunity to create my own project, outside of everyoone elses, I would take the opportunity as well.

Azuth
02-23-2006, 01:24 AM
Can't find anything now but that was 2 years ago. Anyway i think the infomation was mostly passed down through the forums. I guess that we will never know for sure now whether it was just assumed or official. To be honest i can't be bothered to try to find anything, its not that important but i can say that the impression i got was that bioware did not want it because they were too busy with their own projects.

You're right... it was passed down through the forums with statements like this:

http://swforums.bioware.com/viewtopic.html?topic=471185&forum=26

Posted 02/22/06 21:20:13 (GMT) by Derek French

There are no current plans for another KotOR game from BioWare at this time.

We are currently working on Mass Effect, Dragon Age, and another unannounced title.

Bioware employees have been making these statements since they finished production on the first KotOR. I'll bet if you search Derek's posts on that forum you would find a 100 such statements.

Azuth

Ztalker
02-23-2006, 05:39 AM
I always have the feeling that LA is surpressing their developers.
We can opbviously see K2 was rushed, just like Rogue Squadron 3 and so on.

I think Bioware wanted to quit because they wanted to make their own games, instead of being stuck to an publisher like LA.

Point Man
02-23-2006, 09:34 PM
Except that we'd all be bickering over whether or not to play as Revan or a new PC, and the game will never be finished :p
So that's what's taking so long in getting K3 out!

Mister Chief
02-26-2006, 12:42 AM
You can't say LA puts too much pressure, look at all thier great games. i think it is on the other side. The developers need to get their Sh*t together. If Kotor 3 isn't in production yet after 2 years, I wouldn't expect to see it until 2008.

Jae Onasi
02-26-2006, 12:48 AM
I'll just be happy if _someone_ is designing the game, as long as they're good. :)

Nuitari_28
02-26-2006, 12:07 PM
Well i think were going to hear something from lucas arts pretty soon.

With no new films to make, they are focusing on game with a massive haul of games spewing from them. We havn't heard one word about KOTOR yet but i think that will change.
With Star wars battlefront 2 out, empire of war or whatever its called, and many other games out, they have only got lego on the devoloping list. (Which will be out sometime in autumn) they are running out of things to do. I dont think they will redo star wars galaxies because it just doesnt contain a large portion of the mmorg market, with such games as world of warcraft miles better. SO I dont really see anything else they can build on except kotor. With the kotor series having a massive loyal fan base, brings in good money. So sometime soon werll hear something from old lucasy himself.

So until then...

Sordes
02-26-2006, 06:56 PM
You guys should really not be insulting Obsidian for the low quality, well atleast don't make it all their fault. In a recent interview with IGN I think it was, the President (founder of someone) of Obsidian said that Lucasarts wanted KotORII out for the holiday season.

KotORII I believe is Obsidians first project and can you really blame them for trying to make a good first impression? Sure, in the end they didn't quite get it done but I wouldn't blame them.

Mister Chief
03-01-2006, 10:54 PM
[QUOTE=Nuitari_28]
With Star wars battlefront 2 out, empire of war or whatever its called, and many other games out, they have only got lego on the devoloping list. (Which will be out sometime in autumn) they are running out of things to do.

[QUOTE]
I can almost guarantee you that there will be an Empire at War Expansion. they also have Mercenaries 2 (possibly), and an Indiana Jones Game for 360 (officially).

Char Ell
03-02-2006, 09:14 AM
You guys should really not be insulting Obsidian for the low quality, well atleast don't make it all their fault. In a recent interview with IGN I think it was, the President (founder of someone) of Obsidian said that Lucasarts wanted KotORII out for the holiday season.

KotORII I believe is Obsidians first project and can you really blame them for trying to make a good first impression? Sure, in the end they didn't quite get it done but I wouldn't blame them. Ah, the infamous "Who is to blame for KotOR II:TSL's shortcomings?" debate. So many people have got to have someone to fault. Oh well, it's human nature I guess. :giveup:

It's always a good thing if one actually provides a link to a source of information so that others can verify one's assertion about what someone else said. I don't know if this <link> (http://pc.ign.com/articles/684/684902p2.html) is the article you refer to but it's from Feb. 1 of this year and so is fairly recent.
The team also had a firm grasp of Knights of the Old Republic and was glad to get the opportunity to develop a sequel. "It was a game we understood and a game we knew how to make with an engine that was already done," says Feargus. "I hate to say that we didn't think about it; we knew that it was going to be a challenge and we knew it was going to be hard work, particularly in the short time that we had."

According to Feargus it was simply a matter of making the pieces fit. "Chris Avalon writes incredible dialogue and incredible design, so we weren't worried there. Our lead artist Aaron Meyers had worked on Planescape: Torment and Icewind Dale and had just gotten off the ill-fated Baldur's Gate 3, so he had a lot of experience building RPGs. Chris Jones was the lead programmer and he had been the chief architect on the Fallout engine and at Troika the Arcanum engine and what would have been the engine for Baldur's Gate 3. You roll all that together and it seemed like we had all the parts that we needed. The arrogant thing was to agree to do it in the time that LucasArts wanted it done in." (bold added) I read this article again but didn't find anything in it where the Obsidian CEO says that LucasArts wanted TSL out for Christmas. Now I'm not saying that LA didn't want the game out for Christmas because it seems to me like LA did. A 2004 May 4 LA press release, LucasArts E3 2004 lineup to include Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords (http://www.lucasarts.com/press/releases/88.html), originally announced that both the Xbox and PC versions would be released in Feb. 2005. But sometime after E3 2004 LA decided to move the release of TSL for the XBox up from Feb. 2005 to Dec. 2004 thereby shaving 2 months off the originally slated development timeframe.

So on the one hand you have the developer CEO saying it was arrogant of his company to think they could get TSL finished in the time the publisher, LucasArts, wanted and on the other you have the publisher cutting 2 months off the original development time without much warning. From my POV it doesn't really matter who is to blame for TSL's shortcomings. I'm just someone who played the game and was disappointed with some aspects of it. I'm not the developer or the publisher and my only concern is that this doesn't happen with the next KotOR. Assigning blame doesn't accomplish anything. All I can do is hope that LucasArts and the next KotOR developer learn from mistakes made with TSL.

The Source
03-02-2006, 01:57 PM
A deadline is a deadline. If I hired someone who cannot keep a deadline, and produce quality work, they don't deserve to work for me. It is how the buisness world works.

Achilles
03-02-2006, 02:20 PM
Well, since you seem so well versed with "business world" concepts, then you are surely familiar with scope creep. You know, like when a publisher originally sets a February release date then later changes it to December. Not to obsolve OE of their responsibility for agreeing to the change (I suppose they could have just decided not to complete the project), but it seems pretty clear that the tail did not wag the dog in this situation. While you certainly have a right to your incessant OE bashing, I find it to be short-sighted and foolhardy. Perhaps you should ponder your position on this one for a while longer.

Master Kavar
03-02-2006, 02:40 PM
A deadline is a deadline. If I hired someone who cannot keep a deadline, and produce quality work, they don't deserve to work for me. It is how the buisness world works.

And we live in the real world, where quality is directly proportionate to development time. If I owned a programming company and you expected us to produce a product that high caliber in a ridiculously short period of time, you wouldn't deserve to hire me. The business world still exists in the real world.

Jackel
03-02-2006, 03:45 PM
Well, since you seem so well versed with "business world" concepts, then you are surely familiar with scope creep. You know, like when a publisher originally sets a February release date then later changes it to December. Not to obsolve OE of their responsibility for agreeing to the change (I suppose they could have just decided not to complete the project), but it seems pretty clear that the tail did not wag the dog in this situation. While you certainly have a right to your incessant OE bashing, I find it to be short-sighted and foolhardy. Perhaps you should ponder your position on this one for a while longer.
I remember reading from someone over at the OE boards (one of the leads on the game if I recall right) about the new release date having no effect on when the game will be finished. It just mean there wouldn't be as much final testing and tweaking that is usually done before release. They were given a certain date to finish which never changed to an earlier date*.

To me its not really one side of the coins fault. Both were pretty much to blame. LA for wanting it pretty damn quick, IE for not making sure they got it done in that time frame. Oh well at least we still have the community "fixing" things that weren't fully working / left out etc.

(* I think they had a three month extention at one point, not sure though)

Achilles
03-02-2006, 05:05 PM
In project management (SDLC, etc) you factor in time for testing and revisions. These always take place before a project is considered to be finished. They could have very well had a project milestone scheduled for November, December, whatever at which they would have considered the game "essentially finished". This would have been followed with testing, etc before the game was shipped for production. To cut time out of the QA phase is still shortening the timeline resulting in a deadline change. I know that's a awful lot of project management philosophy to take in but does that make sense?

It's not that I feel like LA is to blame and OE is the victim. I don't agree with LA bashing anymore than I agree with OE bashing. If I had to take a guess, I imagine that the conversation went something like this:

LA - "Hey, OE. How's it going?"

OE - "Pretty good. You?"

LA - "Good. Good. Hey, just got out of a board meeting and the Directors are a little concerned that we might not hit our profitability numbers for the quarter if we don't have a strong Christmas. I know we originally agreed on February, but do you think you could take a look at some things and tell us if a December release is even possible"

OE - "Err...well...I don't know. I suppose we could juggle some resources and get you the xbox version by then, but there's no way we could have the PC version finished in time. We'll have to cut some of the stuff we originally sent over for approval and we might not have time to test it as much as we'd like, but yeah we could probably do it. I have to tell you, I'm a little concerned about the quality".

LA - "Well if you can't do it, you can't do it, but if you can it would really mean a lot to us. The stuff you've demoed for us so far has been really good. Do you really think quality is at risk?"

OE - "Without testing, there's no way to know for sure. We could probably get through some very basic testing, but there's no way we could really hammer on it the way we'd like to".

LA - "Ok. We're willing to cut some corners to get this game out early. If you think it's total crap we won't move forward. I know you wanted to do more with this, but we'd rather get a good game out by Christmas than a great game out when the credit card bills start coming and our audience is pinching pennies to recover".

OE - "Alright, we'll get you the best game we can ASAP"

LA - "Hey, thanks, we really appreciate it"

That's the type of thing that happens in business...especially when one of the parties is an important player recovering from a major downsizing in a highly competitive market right before the most profitable period of the entire fiscal year.

JediMaster12
03-02-2006, 05:23 PM
I just had a crash course in project management and I hope I understood it correctly. I have to agree with you Achilles because isn't it the nature of any company to test their product thoroughly before shipping,etc? The FDA is a good example of testing blah blah. I understand that companies try to boost their fiscal year if it sufferred a low but I have to wonder, don't they take into account what it would affect on the broad public scale before making a choice like that?
Maybe I misinterpreted because I'm not into that kind of thing and some days it might as well be written in Greek.

Achilles
03-02-2006, 06:21 PM
I just had a crash course in project management and I hope I understood it correctly. I have to agree with you Achilles because isn't it the nature of any company to test their product thoroughly before shipping,etc? The FDA is a good example of testing blah blah. I understand that companies try to boost their fiscal year if it sufferred a low but I have to wonder, don't they take into account what it would affect on the broad public scale before making a choice like that?
Maybe I misinterpreted because I'm not into that kind of thing and some days it might as well be written in Greek. At the heart of capitalism is a fairly basic concept: Business is risk and the reward for succeeding in the face of risk is profit. Some businesses try to negate risk by spreading it out (i.e. incorporating the business and sharing the risk and the rewards with shareholders). When investors buy shares in a company, the company is then ethically bound to make decisions that are in the best interest of their shareholders. Generally this means acting in the best interest of your stakeholders too (not the same thing, although a shareholder is almost always your primary stakeholder), but sometimes managers lose sight of this and you end up with Enron, WorldCom, etc.

LEC is a publicly traded company. People like you and me (and some other people not like you and me) may decide that we feel good about the product that LEC provides and choose to invest our hard earned money into LEC so that it can pool its capital and create new products. By doing so we make an agreement with LEC that basically says, "we know that we might not get our money back, but we believe in you and trust that you will use this money to make 'our' company more profitable. Because we are sharing that risk, we also expect to share the profits should 'our' company be profitable".

LEC knows that without investors, they take all the risk themselves. Additionally they have to pony up all the capital and if they fail, they go out of business. Companies that aren't profitable don't have many investors, therefore it is always in the company's best interest to remain profitable.

It's also no big secret that the month between Thanksgiving and Christmas is the biggest month in retail. The market refers to the Friday after Thanksgiving as "Black Friday" because that's the day that most companies become profitable (accountants use red to signify a debt or a loss and black to signify a profit or gain). There is a lot of pressure on companies during this month because it's the time when most people are out spending money like it's growing on trees. Everyone knows this, so they are all competing for the money.

So LEC knows that are sitting on the sequel to the previous year's Game of the Year. As a responsible manager, do stick to your originally announced Feburary release (knowing that January's credit card bills are going to be through the roof because most American's finance Christmas and no one is going to be spending money in February)? Or do you go to your developer and try to convince them to up their timeline a little so you can get in on the action? Maybe there will be a few bugs, but games always ship with bugs. It's a risk, but there's risk in everything and if the risk pays off there will be considerable profit (and in turn, more investors to help finance the next big title).

I suppose you could say LA took the shot and missed, but then again they did sell over 1.5 million copies of the game and it was even nominated for some awards. The only people complaining are the die hard fanboys (and fangirls). The people that bought KotOR, played it a few times and liked it enough to buy the sequel aren't up in arms over this. They're going to buy the 3rd installment without ever hearing about cut content or thinking twice about why TSL was released early.

I suppose you could also say that if LA hadn't taken the shot, they would have only sold 1 million copies, but they could rest well knowing that they made the safe play. Unfortunately, always playing it safe is not always in the best interest of the company or the shareholders.

Did I answer your question or did I miss it entirely?

Darth InSidious
03-03-2006, 05:37 AM
On the other hand, delaying the release time only increases anticipation, and the number of people who hear about the game. It allows for more marketing to seep through.

Achilles
03-03-2006, 05:51 AM
On the other hand, delaying the release time only increases anticipation, and the number of people who hear about the game. It allows for more marketing to seep through.Apparently you missed all the references that I made to the psychotic feeding frenzy that is the American holiday (shopping) season, etc. Take another stab at it and let us know what you come up with.

-JoBo-
03-03-2006, 07:33 AM
Apparently you missed all the references that I made to the psychotic feeding frenzy that is the American holiday (shopping) season, etc. Take another stab at it and let us know what you come up with.

LOL!
It's very true game developers simply love to get there games out around this timeframe hoping to rake in some extra money from casual gamers.Most XBOX players are casual gamers.

Personally i don't care when a great game comes out because i would always go out and buy it , even if i had to sell a kidney in order to pay for it.
(erhm ok that might be a little extreme , but it's close lol )

Does anyone know what the sales were like for KOTOR II ?
I keep reading it's supposed to have made LA a good bundle, but how does anyone know this?
Maybe the development cost and profits were simply not enough and thats why we still haven't heard anything about a KOTOR III.

If a Empire at War RTS game costs less time to develop and rakes in more money then a KOTOR game then it wouldn't be logical for LucasArts to want to make another one.
LucasArts is really turning into a sort of EA, moving away from making legendary adventure games to "shallow" FPS and the like.
Geared for the casual gamer.

Char Ell
03-03-2006, 08:36 AM
Does anyone know what the sales were like for KOTOR II ?
I keep reading it's supposed to have made LA a good bundle, but how does anyone know this?
Maybe the development cost and profits were simply not enough and thats why we still haven't heard anything about a KOTOR III.
Hmmm, perhaps if you had taken the time to read what Achilles wrote a mere 3 posts before yours... :dozey:
I suppose you could say LA took the shot and missed, but then again they did sell over 1.5 million copies of the game and it was even nominated for some awards The 1.5 million copies of TSL sold comes from a statement made by Obsidian CEO Feargus Urquhart in an IGN interview. <link> (http://pc.ign.com/articles/684/684902p1.html)
I'm not sure what number constitutes "successful" sales for a video game as the number may vary depending on how much it cost to develop and market the game. In the music business however if an album sells over 1 million copies it's considered pretty successful. I can't see how the video game industry would be much different in that regard. I've never been able to find any dollar figures for what LucasArts made from TSL. I don't think LA makes that information available to the general public.

EDIT: Regarding the question of why LA hasn't announced KotOR 3, IMO there could be a number of reasons like market conditions, next-gen console availability, deciding on a developer for the game, in-house political machinations. In other words, unless you've got access to LucasArts decision makers we can only speculate. :)

Darth InSidious
03-03-2006, 08:49 AM
Apparently you missed all the references that I made to the psychotic feeding frenzy that is the American holiday (shopping) season, etc. Take another stab at it and let us know what you come up with.

No, I did get the point, thank you. I was simply making an observation. Do you want to be any more aggressive, or shall we descend into an all-out row right away?

Darth InSidious, you are also coming off quite agressive yourself here. Achilles may have been slightly sarcastic with you, but this kind of argumentative response is unwarranted. -RH

The Source
03-03-2006, 11:49 AM
And we live in the real world, where quality is directly proportionate to development time. If I owned a programming company and you expected us to produce a product that high caliber in a ridiculously short period of time, you wouldn't deserve to hire me. The business world still exists in the real world.

You wouldn't get the job.
The developing world keeps evolving. What use to take 10 hrs takes 2 hrs. The unfortunate side affect is the lose of those companies that can't keep up with the speed and changes of demand. I want to hire a company that can develop high quality products in a short time period. This is true in advertising and game development. If my client changes the date and time, I am still required to deliver the same quality that it would be if I had more time. That is just how it works. Non one said it was fair.

lukeiamyourdad
03-03-2006, 12:22 PM
No, I did get the point, thank you. I was simply making an observation. Do you want to be any more aggressive, or shall we descend into an all-out row right away?

Well, you certainly didn't think about it a long time before posting did you? To claim that Q1 2005 will sell more the Christmas 2004 is pretty foolish.

You wouldn't get the job.
The developing world keeps evolving. What use to take 10 hrs takes 2 hrs. The unfortunate side affect is the lose of those companies that can't keep up with the speed and changes of demand. I want to hire a company that can develop high quality products in a short time period. This is true in advertising and game development. If my client changes the date and time, I am still required to deliver the same quality that it would be if I had more time. That is just how it works. Non one said it was fair.

And no one said they (OE) can make miracles happen.
I might have been budget problems. If you want to make things faster, you need more people. They could have been short-handed when the release date was moved and couldn't afford to get more staff. Who knows...
You're forgetting one major point here. What used to take 10 hrs now takes 2 hrs, correct. However, it took 10 hrs for a group of 20 person, while it takes 2 hrs for a group of 100. There's a lot more people now then back then. That's the reality.
If you really want to pull it off with a small group, you have to increase productivity, but there are limits to everything. You've probably never seen how it is to manage anything.
Was Obsidian capable of pulling it off? They thought so, but the product certainly did not lack quality, what it did lack was polishing.

Frankly, the incessant OE bashing is getting quite old, especially since it really doesn't do anything anymore. It's been over a year and that's all. The fact is, I'm pretty sure that only a very small minority have even heard of the cut content. They sold 1.5 million copies. How many out of that do check out internet forums for cut content and the such? 50 000 maybe? Just a wild guess.
So what's the point? If OE is chosen to make K3, how many will actually care? Does anyone think that LA will care if 50 000 forum goers are not happy out of 1.5 million?

LORD SPARTAN
03-03-2006, 12:59 PM
Well I have to admit that TSL was a deception to me. The got a whole bunch of new characters and cool jedi robe, but the global render and storyline are weak. I didn't felt the embiance in TSL as I did in K1. Also the interaction with party memebers is borring and feels like getting no where. What I am saying it's that it takes too long to accomplish something interresting and the force in this game became too about isoterism. In shorter, I didn't beat or close to resemble the feeling we got in Kotor 1.

I also heard about those rumors about Bioware not doing kotor II or III game. But I can say one thing, they read in theire forums and they saw all theire fans wishing Kotor III to be made by Bioware. I also saw something saying by one of the Bioware's representant saying that Bioware is not rejecting any thing about Lucasart Kotor III, but no decision has been taken by any corporations. Even Lucasart didn't made the choice to officially anounce a third sequel and I will try to findback those articles.

For my part, I also wish Bioware taking the third sequel, so I wouldn't be bored again by a cheap incomplete storyline. I also would like to remind that what I said was true of what I saw but until I fingback some proof, it's not an official statement ecept for the part wich I say I didn't like TSL very much and got bored with it before getting to the end.

The Source
03-03-2006, 01:17 PM
OE Bashing? I fail to see anything that I personally said that would be considered bashing. I never once attacked the company personally, but I did make statements about how they handled business. Try to keep on topic please.

Achilles
03-03-2006, 01:43 PM
Please explain to me how your negative commentary on their organization does not constitute "bashing". I could be wrong, but from where I sit you appear to be someone that understands very little about business but feels inclined to offer feedback on how others run their's. Also, I note that rather than address any of the points that I made in post 26, you chose to respond with "I'm not bashing". If you would like to have a serious discussion about business practices, I'm right here.

Jae Onasi
03-03-2006, 01:57 PM
The computer field has certainly made tremendous strides, and that's allowed companies to increase productivity simply because the computer can do more of the work. I remember watching Phil Vischer describe how the changes in technology affected the production of VeggieTales and how much faster and better they could make the shows in '02 compared to even '97 with the same people.

I thought OE had a number of people hired from Bioware who had also worked on Kotor, so the shift from Bioware to OE didn't seem as unusual as I first thought.
Whatever the specific problems were, if OE was in a position to fix those problems and then followed through on that, then they might be in a decent position to do K3. I wouldn't blame LA for going with someone else, however--no company likes being made to look bad by another, and I certainly would be far less inclined to hire someone who had publicly made my company look bad. The problem between OE and LA was a 2 way street, though. When OE was taking a lot of heat, LA could have stepped in to do some positive PR instead of letting OE hang out in the breeze. I would respect both more if they'd be honest and just admit that they both did things that contributed to the rushed game and both were committed to fixing the problems as quickly as possible instead of publicly squabbling with each other on who was to blame.

Achilles
03-03-2006, 02:05 PM
--no company likes being made to look bad by another, and I certainly would be far less inclined to hire someone who had publicly made my company look bad. What, specifically, are you referring to here?

instead of publicly squabbling with each other on who was to blame.Link please. To date, I am unaware of any public (or otherwise) squabbling between the two groups.

I do think you're right on one point though: they both contributed to the quality of the final product. I think they both acknowledge this and that's why we don't see any finger pointing. Similarly, neither party sees the need to come to the other's defense. I'm sure that both groups have better things to do with their time.

I, for one, hope that OE gets a shot at K3. I just hope they get more than a year to make it ;)

Azuth
03-03-2006, 03:07 PM
According to this 1up.com article entitled "PlayStation 3: Everything We Know from 1UP.com" Obsidian's next game will be a "third-person action-RPG using the Unreal Engine 3", for the PS3.

http://www.1up.com/do/feature?pager.offset=5&cId=3148332

Project New Jersey
Publisher: TBA
Developer: Obsidian Software

Obsidian, who recently worked on Star Wars: The Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords, is currently working on a third-person action-RPG using the Unreal Engine 3, for next-gen platforms.

Project New Jersey web page at 1up.com: http://www.1up.com/do/gameOverview?cId=3148441

I should also point out that Joseph Bulock on the OE forums said that:Joseph Bulock,Jan 14 2006, 06:05 PM:
[. . .] PNJ is our own IP as has been stated else where.
http://forums.obsidianent.com/index.php?showtopic=39422&st=0&p=528437&#entry528437

For those that don't know IP=Intellectual property. That statement means that it can not be a Star Wars game, as Star Wars is an Intellectual property owned by Lucas Arts for consoles and computer games.

Azuth

edited for spelling

The Source
03-03-2006, 04:00 PM
Please explain to me how your negative commentary on their organization does not constitute "bashing". I could be wrong, but from where I sit you appear to be someone that understands very little about business but feels inclined to offer feedback on how others run their's. Also, I note that rather than address any of the points that I made in post 26, you chose to respond with "I'm not bashing". If you would like to have a serious discussion about business practices, I'm right here.
I just read your posts again. Do people get successful by being kind? Even though I may like someone, I am going to fire them (or break a buisness relationship with them) for not doing the job at A+ quality regardless about the deadline.

I submit to the notion that the problems with LA and OE are based upon a two way street. Obsidian Ent. released a magazine article that did set blame onto Lucas Arts. Therefore, they did play a blame game. Plublicly. I will see if I can find it, for I have seen a link to it online somewhere.

Achilles
03-03-2006, 04:40 PM
I just read your posts again. Do people get successful by being kind? Even though I may like someone, I am going to fire them (or break a buisness relationship with them) for not doing the job at A+ quality regardless about the deadline.Sir, what is your point? Again you show a general lack of knowledge of project management. It appears that you want to argue philosophy when philosophy is not the matter at hand.

I wasn't in the room so I can't speak from 100% certainty. What I can say is that it looks pretty freakin' likely that LEC scope creeped the hell out of TSL. OE has admitted that they weren't able to do some of the things that they wanted to do, but I'm pretty sure every game developer has those feeling about every game they make. If you want to talk about something, talk about that.

I submit to the notion that the problems with LA and OE are based upon a two way street. Obsidian Ent. released a magazine article that did set blame onto Lucas Arts. Therefore, they did play a blame game. Plublicly. I will see if I can find it, for I have seen a link to it online somewhere.I sure hope that you are not referring to the post-mortem published Game Developer magazine. Surely someone with your business background knows that port-mortems are a best practice in project management. Interestingly enough, I happen to own that article and have read it more than once. I do not recall anything remotely close to LA bashing; in fact, I'll quote you part of the article summary:

"Without the high quality engine and toolset from Bioware and the extensive support from LucasArts, a game of this calibur would not have been remotely possible in little more than 14 months'.

This hardly sounds like bashing to me.

The Source
03-03-2006, 04:58 PM
Achilles:
I am going to repectfully drop the subject.

Achilles
03-03-2006, 05:04 PM
MacLeodCorp,

That is perfectly acceptable. If you bring it up again in another thread, please expect me to pick up right where I left off. Just so we're clear.

Jae Onasi
03-03-2006, 05:42 PM
I just read your posts again. Do people get successful by being kind? Even though I may like someone, I am going to fire them (or break a buisness relationship with them) for not doing the job at A+ quality regardless about the deadline.

I submit to the notion that the problems with LA and OE are based upon a two way street. Obsidian Ent. released a magazine article that did set blame onto Lucas Arts. Therefore, they did play a blame game. Plublicly. I will see if I can find it, for I have seen a link to it online somewhere.

I saw something on it, too (hence my comment above). However, Achilles, (and pleasant conversation mode is on here, not sarcasm!) I didn't file that reference away because it honestly never occurred to me that I might have to cite my sources on a game forum. ;) :) I imagine I'll have to go hunt that down sometime this weekend. :) While I do have a decent ability after all my years in college/grad/professional training to sift through fiction and rumor to get to fact, every now and then I'm going to believe something someone credible says which may in fact be rumor. I'm susceptible just like anyone else. However, I promise you all that I will never resort to intellectual dishonesty. I'm not that kind of girl. ;)

Sure, LA and OE don't have to go "Rah, Rah, we love each other!" :sbdance
I do agree with Macleod that if a company doesn't produce, they shouldn't get repeat business unless they can demonstrate an improved track record. I will say that if LA pushed up the deadline on OE, that's not exactly fair to OE, either.
However, these 2 companies partnered together for the game, and they're in the same boat. What one company does or does not do on the TSL project definitely affects the other. I am not attempting OE bashing here, either, since I was, overall, satisfied with the game. It just appeared to me that LA was conspicuously silent when lots of people complained about the cut content issue, though I'll be the first to say since I have a lot of reading to do for work, I don't have the opportunity to read gaming articles nearly as often. Granted, since OE is the dev, they take the most responsibility. However, LA still has their name on the box, too. Presenting a united front as soon as problems were discovered and saying 'hey, we don't want people who are just 'satisfied' with the game, we want people to be really happy with and excited about this game. We're going to investigate and fix the problems right away' might have been better for both. However, hindsight is 20/20, and neither company can undo what has already been done.
Since OE is intimately familiar with what goes into a Kotor game, it makes sense to me for them to do K3 also, as long as both OE and LA have identified the real cause(s) for the rush release and have dealt with it appropriately so that it doesn't happen again. If only one of them acknowledges what the problems might be or what to do about them, or if one of them has unreasonable expectations, then both companies are probably better off going their separate ways. If they can't work together reasonably well, the probability of a good quality K3 project is lower.

The Source
03-03-2006, 06:00 PM
It just occured to me that we are arguing over a bloody game. We could be debating about the crisis in Iraq or other politics, but we are arguing over a piece of entertainment. Yeah. I am not an expert at buisness, and I plainly posted in the first post that this was based upon a theory.

At the end of the day, what in the world did we accomplish here? We don't agree? I hope we don't all have the same opinion. If the world was made up of people with similar opinions, we will all be in some major trouble. Ever read the book Fahrenheit 451?

I thank you Achilles for the debate, and for some insight to your side of the facts. Harrassing people until they see things either way is wrong. Self included.

(Edited:: I forgot the tittle of the book, so I had to look it up.)

Achilles
03-03-2006, 06:09 PM
I do agree with Macleod that if a company doesn't produce, they shouldn't get repeat business unless they can demonstrate an improved track record.Right, however I do not believe that's what happened here. Many factors indicate that LA asked for changes to the original agreement. This is known as scope creep (when a project sponsor changes the project after work on the project has already begun).

I will say that if LA pushed up the deadline on OE, that's not exactly fair to OE, either. Precisely, although this does not make LA a big, mean bully, it just makes them a business. I think that the change from a February, simultaneous release for both platforms to a December release for xbox followed by a February release for PC is a pretty clear indication that this is exactly what happened. Either that or OE was promised a bonus for a christmas xbox release while they were negotiating the deal and they decided to try to take advantage of it. We may never know.


However, these 2 companies partnered together for the game, and they're in the same boat. What one company does or does not do on the TSL project definitely affects the other. I am not attempting OE bashing here, either, since I was, overall, satisfied with the game. It just appeared to me that LA was conspicuously silent when lots of people complained about the cut content issue It entirely possible that it's not LA's place to address the cut content. Really, cut content be damned, I would prefer to see an explanation for the lack bug-fixing game patches. These are controlled by LA and I think we absolutely should have heard more on that front.

Don't forget that this game sold well and was put up for many awards. It's not like this was some crap game scraped off of someone's shoe. PC gamers are up in arms about cut content and game patches, while I'm willing to be there are hundreds of thousands of xbox owners that were perfectly satisfied with the game.

The Source
03-03-2006, 06:39 PM
I think Achilles just hates me.. Hehehe... ;)

I think we should get this thread closed up, for it is creating more heat than what it was intended. There are most likely facts that we are all missing. Since we are not OE or LA, we will never truely know what happened behind closed doors. OE and LA may be hoping the game will disapear for a while, or someone is working on it as we speak. Who knows the truth? I personally don't.

Speculation is healthy. When we don't have all the facts, driving at uncertain conclusions only creates unhealthy obsession.

Point Man
03-03-2006, 07:05 PM
I know we all wish OE had more time to get the game perfect, but if we look at things from an unemotional business point-of-view, moving the release date to November was a shrewd business move. I have no doubts that both companies made more money because of that. The gaming industry may have some idealistic artists in it, just as the film and music industries do, but the bottom line is still the bottom line. You do what will make you the most profit. Even if it means you will not have your product as perfect as it could be.

Char Ell
03-03-2006, 07:43 PM
I think that the change from a February, simultaneous release for both platforms to a December release for xbox followed by a February release for PC is a pretty clear indication that this is exactly what happened. Either that or OE was promised a bonus for a christmas xbox release while they were negotiating the deal and they decided to try to take advantage of it. We may never know.Interesting. I never considered the possibility that LucasArts offered a financial incentive to Obsidian Entertainment if they pushed up the release date for TSL's XBox version to make it out in time for the 2004 holiday season. While we may never know the answer I sure would like to. :naughty:
Really, cut content be damned, I would prefer to see an explanation for the lack bug-fixing game patches. These are controlled by LA and I think we absolutely should have heard more on that front. I wholeheartedly concur on this point. IIRC the "hi-quality" movie and hi-quality music patches weren't released until long after the game had been out but their files were dated much earlier, seemingly indicating that these patches were sitting around gathering dust until somebody finally remembered about the need to actually release them to the people who bought the game. I also find it quite interesting that modders are releasing TSL game fixes for dialog bugs and such. I couldn't figure out then and still don't understand now why LA and/or OE provided such shoddy (IMO) post-game release support. :giveup:

Achilles
03-04-2006, 02:59 AM
^^^^
Based on my limited knowledge of the game industry, such patches are created at the request/with the approval of the distributor. Since LA owns the game, they have to commission the patches from the developer. If such a commission never takes place, then the patch doesn't happen (hence why OE has only released a limited number of patches. Bioware had 4 chances to get KotOR right, but bashers seem to conveniently forget that).

Since the patch is distributed by the distributor (LucasArts), it must be approved by said party. OE stated that the patch was complete and ready for download months before it was actually released. This leads me to the following 2 scenarios:

1) The patch was given to LA for distribution, but additional bugs were found. The patch was then kicked back to OE for revision or...

2) The patch was sent, ready to go, to LA but was caught up in bureaucracy for a couple of months before release.

Considering the news that LA had undergone major restructuring during the period that the patch was released, combined with the nature of the patch itself, I'm more inclined to believe that scenario 2 happened rather than scenario 1. Odds are that LA didn't have the resources necessary to test and approve a patch for some time, hence the delay in the patch. Rather than potentially bash their business partner, OE kept quiet and took the heat as "fans" continued to bash them for not producing the media patch they "promised".

Achilles
03-04-2006, 03:46 AM
I think Achilles just hates me.. Hehehe... ;)Hates you? No. Thinks you talk an awful lot about something you know little about? Yes. :D

Hey, we're all guilty of it and I hold no animosity toward you. Just lighten up and maybe spend some time considering the possibility that the world does not operate under the intricate rules that you have assigned to it ;). Something that I tell my direct reports constantly: If management was all about clear cut decisions, they could replace us all with robots tomorrow. The fact is that most decisions are not clear cut and require the judgement of a person. If we (managers) don't accept that, then we are in the wrong business.

The Source
03-04-2006, 04:07 PM
Hates you? No. Thinks you talk an awful lot about something you know little about? Yes. :D

Hey, we're all guilty of it and I hold no animosity toward you. Just lighten up and maybe spend some time considering the possibility that the world does not operate under the intricate rules that you have assigned to it ;). Something that I tell my direct reports constantly: If management was all about clear cut decisions, they could replace us all with robots tomorrow. The fact is that most decisions are not clear cut and require the judgement of a person. If we (managers) don't accept that, then we are in the wrong business.
:fist: Those robots... Hehehe...

I think we all come to these forums, and sometimes we forget where we are. Even though we don't leave our desk, everyone is drawn to one location or another to releive stress and have fun. Every now and then, both of us included, we forget where we are and the stress that builds up throughout the day gets splattered across threads. It is all about being human.

No hard feelings on this end either. :)

Buzz1978
03-05-2006, 08:19 AM
OE has admitted that they weren't able to do some of the things that they wanted to do, but I'm pretty sure every game developer has those feeling about every game they make.

You can leave the "game" out of that. An acquaintance of mine runs/owns a small audio company and develops his own amplifiers and speakers. He once told me something like "You *always* know that additional time makes your product better, but if you're doing business then at some point your product just has to be completed."

Achilles, I think you made some very good points in this thread, probably the best one is that if two companies decide to do business together it actually means *together* and not against each other. I think people around here attach too much importance to this whole cut content stuff. I presume that the hardcore gamers (the ones who are keen on finding every glitch just to be annoyed...) are taken serious also but they're just a small part of the target audience and their opinions cannot (must not) dominate a game company's decisions. One thing is clear IMO: If either LA or OE would have thought that TSL wasn't ready to be released they wouldn't have released it...

thebighirt
03-05-2006, 07:11 PM
The main question with regard to blame is did OE use the time they were given well? If they were dragging their feet, and then suddenly had an "ohhh sh$t moment when LA gave them a shorter deadline, then it's OE's fault for procrastinating and then having to do a rush job (which, examining the game, it seems like this is the case). It's difficult to understand why OE needed a ton of time to make KOTOR II: they didn't have to develop a graphics engine, which generally takes a majority of the time, they worked with bioware to understand the engine, and they had a good amount of time.

lukeiamyourdad
03-05-2006, 07:37 PM
You don't seem to know how much time it would take to make such a project. It did take them less time to make K2 then Bioware with K1.
Accusations of procrastinations are not the smartest criticism I've heard. You've overlooked a lot of points made earlier in this thread.

Point being, even without an engine to build, they have to write a story adn the dialogues, then make new models, new skins, make new areas, new animations, new cutscenes, record sound, record voices and test the game for bugs and even more things. They had around 14 months to do it with a relatively small staff. Good amount of time? I don't think so.

Achilles
03-05-2006, 07:43 PM
^^^^
Not to mention all the revisions that were made to the engine; stuff the average player wouldn't see unless they took up modding. Major overhauls to the dialog system, game difficulty, random loot stuff, etc. Things like influence weren't built into the original game engine, OE had to go in and make it from scratch. Sure they had someplace to work from, but that doesn't mean that they didn't have a lot to do.

DarkLord1981
03-09-2006, 05:40 PM
Well, i know for sure is if i was a publisher, i would give the developer a reasonable time to develop the product, something like 5yrs to develop it, but ask them to do their best.

But then if i was the developer and i got asked if i could get it done 3 months earlier and it was make the game no where near good enough to be a good title, i would have said no.

but thats just my opinion.

zadi
03-09-2006, 06:13 PM
Frankly, I think that the really good game modders should be hired BEFORE a game is released (when it's in the alpha stage) and let them go at it to find and fix any potential problems. Modders are going to find and fix things as needed so why not pay them to do it and give them copies of the games before it's in beta testing. If it weren't for many of the modders I wouldn't be as big of a fan of KOTOR as I now am. Oh sure I loved the game before but if it weren't for the fixes of the little things (like Carth's romance fix in KOTOR or Bao-Dur's remote influence mod) I wouldn't be here. Those little extras and tweaks that the modders come out with makes the game more enjoyable and it's not like the company has to use a modder's work in the final game but if the modder can find and fix potential problems (like how Team-Gizka is working on TSL) then HIRE them.

The Source
03-09-2006, 10:41 PM
Frankly, I think that the really good game modders should be hired BEFORE a game is released (when it's in the alpha stage) and let them go at it to find and fix any potential problems. Modders are going to find and fix things as needed so why not pay them to do it and give them copies of the games before it's in beta testing. If it weren't for many of the modders I wouldn't be as big of a fan of KOTOR as I now am. Oh sure I loved the game before but if it weren't for the fixes of the little things (like Carth's romance fix in KOTOR or Bao-Dur's remote influence mod) I wouldn't be here. Those little extras and tweaks that the modders come out with makes the game more enjoyable and it's not like the company has to use a modder's work in the final game but if the modder can find and fix potential problems (like how Team-Gizka is working on TSL) then HIRE them.
***Cringe.***
I want to comment, but I humbly disagree with this. I do reframe from pushing my thoughts about this onto anyone. However: ***Cringe*** :fire2:

Jackel
03-10-2006, 03:52 PM
Frankly, I think that the really good game modders should be hired BEFORE a game is released (when it's in the alpha stage) and let them go at it to find and fix any potential problems.
Programmers working ont he game are paid to do this already. Why would a company who alreadys employs people to do a job spend more money on people to do the job that people they already have employed are paid to do? They wouldn't.
Modders are going to find and fix things as needed so why not pay them to do it and give them copies of the games before it's in beta testing.
An alpha stage of a game isnt even really playable, finding bugs is going to be a given do to its an ALPHA and not a Beta. Beta means "mostly done, just need to double check balancing and other things like that". Companies would also never give away their game code to anyone incase it gets leaked. Which is a big no no. Companies do not like their games to be leaked to the public.
If it weren't for many of the modders I wouldn't be as big of a fan of KOTOR as I now am.
I can agree with this. I sometimes only buy games just because I can add mods to it or make my own.
Oh sure I loved the game before but if it weren't for the fixes of the little things (like Carth's romance fix in KOTOR or Bao-Dur's remote influence mod) I wouldn't be here.
"Bao-Dur's remote influence mod" Is not a *fix* it is a hack to show you something you were never meant to see. (no offense to the maker of the mod of course) If it was a fix it would be something that was meant to be in the game and just never worked properly and was needing "fixing".
Those little extras and tweaks that the modders come out with makes the game more enjoyable and it's not like the company has to use a modder's work in the final game but if the modder can find and fix potential problems (like how Team-Gizka is working on TSL) then HIRE them.
See above. Game companies are not going to hire people to do a job they already have people employed to do. Not just because they already have people but every extra person on the team adds more then their wage to the budget, You still have to pay for other things that are required by law (holiday pay, sick leave etc etc) More people = more money having to be spent = less profit.

Modders are modders and not employees because they have lives outside of working on games and like it that way. Sure some would love to be working on real games and being paid for it but I bet the majority would only want to work on a game once it is finished.

The Source
03-10-2006, 05:51 PM
Modders are modders and not employees because they have lives outside of working on games and like it that way. Sure some would love to be working on real games and being paid for it but I bet the majority would only want to work on a game once it is finished.
I considered modders as game players out to have more fun. I don't believe thier intention is to be an employee for any other company except for themselves. It is all about fun. :)

If a modder does get hired by someone, that just enhances the fun. I don't know any modder who is doing this to get hired. I could be wrong.

Aleggy
03-10-2006, 07:42 PM
ok i'll be honest i read the 1st few message boards of this thread and a few others in it so if the points i am about to make are just meer echos of other people i apologise

ok as to where blame should lie for k2 i believe 3 groups are to blame

1) bioware for not continuing there great work with kotor

2) LA for putting such a tight deadline on obsidian

3) Obsidian for accepting this deadline

and as to obsidian working k3 i have heard they are and they are creating there own games angine for it wich is probably why it taking so long and they are trying not to make the same mistake twice


as for bioware refusing to do k2, this is not hard to believe it doesnt take much homework to notice that bioware are good at create games but i have yet to see them make a sequal game they always pass the buck and it seems they pass the buck a fair bit to obsidian 'never winter nights' is a good example of this and i suspect the reason they passed the buck to obsidian is because some of the obsidian team are ex-bioware team worers

but as there werent many complaints about nwn2 and there was as far as im aware a lot of people looking forward to nwn3 i dont think that obsidian are completely to blame about how bad k2 was

ViperSkeele
03-14-2006, 01:37 PM
I'll just be happy if _someone_ is designing the game, as long as they're good. :)

Uh you mean even like: John Maddens KOTOR III by EA Sports? (devils advocate) :O)

Well, since you seem so well versed with "business world" concepts, then you are surely familiar with scope creep. You know, like when a publisher originally sets a February release date then later changes it to December. Not to obsolve OE of their responsibility for agreeing to the change (I suppose they could have just decided not to complete the project), but it seems pretty clear that the tail did not wag the dog in this situation. While you certainly have a right to your incessant OE bashing, I find it to be short-sighted and foolhardy. Perhaps you should ponder your position on this one for a while longer.
I agree, after all, look at the talent on the Obsidian Team. I'd be interested to see a comparison between the amount of time spent developing KOTOR I, and KOTOR II, and I would hazzard a guess that LucasArts probably wanted the next installment to begin developement ASAP. If my calculations are correct, I would imagine that Obsidian had a chance to tell LA "I told you it'd be a little ragged if we released it so soon" So if you boil it all down, and look at the amount of time Obsidian has had to work on KOTOR III, I bet you all that KOTOR III turns out to be the best of the series, eclipsing the first two, think about it

Aleggy
03-14-2006, 02:43 PM
well actually i believe your half right obsidian said in their posts in their forum that their deadline for kotor2 never changed and the change of release date had nothing to do with them. So the blame in my opinion is shared between 3 parties as i half already said in a previous post on this very thread, but that just my opinion