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View Full Version : A COMPREHENSIVE review of OJP E, Feb. '06


Kyle Kelasheski
02-16-2006, 01:04 AM
Hello Everyone!

Am I ever sorry that I was away from this splendid mod for so long. I ended up getting caught in an “infinity loop” with a fouled up installation of JA. For some reason, Windows wouldn’t uninstall it completely, deleting the files didn’t rectify the issue, and I was thus unable to install a fresh version of the game. I finally followed through on some rather detailed instructions from LucasArts regarding my situation, and after some nervous file hunting and deleting, I was finally able to reinstall JA, and thus the latest build of OJP E.

I really look forward to once again participating in OJP E.

Here’s my short review: WOW! Great work! Here’s a million dollars for all your strenuous efforts!

Now here’s my lengthier, more detailed and (hopefully) more meaningful review…

This post is VERY detailed. I hope you have the patience to read through it all. If I didn’t feel as strongly as I do for the immense amount of work that’s been poured into this more than worthwhile endeavor, I wouldn’t have poured as much time and thought into writing this review.





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BUGS

1. While it may be available in other game types, there is no ability to specify the game-ending score for Team Free For All.

2. There are no maps listed for the Siege game type.

3. For some reason, it seems like every time an electrostaff (that one that came with the very popular and superb MagnaGuardVM model, available here: http://jediknight2.filefront.com/file/MagnaGuardVM;55831 ) makes a kill that the game immediately crashes to the desktop. Since this model is SO popular, it’s perhaps prudent to investigate why this is occurring and integrate this weapon into the mod. There has only been one duel out of a dozen where I was able to conclude a duel with a MagnaGuard, and that was when it was occupying the first bot/player slot.

4. This build of OJP E seems fairly unstable compared to the last build I played half a year ago. For no apparent reason, it seems like it crashes to the desktop at least once every half an hour, and this is with a game that avoids using the MagnaGuardVM model and its electrostaff (see Bug Item #3 for details). It’s not uncommon to have the game crash to the desktop just several minutes into the first duel, and this may happen with almost every fresh startup.

I have found that if I REDUCE THE NUMBER of bots/players that are allowed to duel that the system gets moderately more stable, but even so, a crash may still occur and when it does happen, it’s usually JUST before the opponents’ sabers are about to collide with each other, OR immediately afterwards. What is strange about the “more bot/player slots=more instability” bug is that I noticed that after each restart the number of bots is increased by one AUTOMATICALLY, meaning that I did NOT manually increase the number of bots/player slots. For instance, I was playing with only 8 slots assigned to bots, and after starting the game back up after another crash I noticed that the slot number was increased by 1. After four restarts 12 bots were assigned without my deliberately doing so. This “add 1 to the bot/player slot” bug also occurs whenever one exits a game type without actually quitting the game entirely. This bug does NOT occur in Power Duel.

5. Many sabers that are thrown produce a second red blade that points straight down towards the ground. On second thought, maybe the “red blade” is actually the red line representing the x axis of the 3D model. Most of the time, this “red line/blade” shows up the most often in Solo Mode, but once in a while can also be found in the Create a Mission Mode.

6. In non-duel game types, all of the bots are randomly spawned with different saber styles and sabers; this is intentional, yes? Is there a means by which I can disable the random assigning of sabers? I checked through the config file twice, and couldn’t find any such variable. I like to setup “cinematic” battles on some maps, so it’d look/feel weird to see Maul show up with two lightsabers rather than just his saberstaff.

7. In Power Duel, if one has 4 slots open, with the first 3 being filled by bots, and the last slot reserved for a human player who is playing as the single duelist, then the game will not rotate the third bot in who is also a single duelist. Whenever the player loses, the game tries to load the other single duelist bot, but it’s never successful at doing so.



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LIGHTSABER EFFECTS

1. I love the new effects that you’ve implemented. They are very well done, and certainly remind me of the type we’ve seen in the films. The new flash upon the sabers colliding hits the bull’s-eye for accuracy, and I’m completely impressed by how you have the resulting flash quickly illuminating the surrounding architecture, and you’ve properly removed the “ozone cloud” and “small shower of sparks” effects that have plagued so many other lightsaber effects adjustments.

2. However, the saber trails still look like they’re too long and the backend of the trail’s glow is too “feathered;” the glow needs a more distinctive edge. The tip of the saber needs to be made a little bit blunter/rounder. I do realize that in Ep. 3 that there’s something like three distinct saber tips that make an appearance. I would just go with the most prevalent look from all the films, which means that the saber’s tip is mostly rounded. One point about the saber’s tip: from the first person view, the tip of the saber looks almost exactly as I’d imagine they would if one was holding a “real” lightsaber. That being said, from certain angles, there’s a faint thin glowing “line” that extends a little way beyond the very tip of the lightsaber itself. A lot of the saber mods that I’ve tried in the past have this “thin center line” glitch, and I’m hoping that it’s altogether avoidable.

3. Have the size of the flash that’s created whenever saber collides directly correspond to the amount of effort being put behind the swing. For example, if two sabers come in contact with each other and both wielders are using a weaker stance then the flash that’s produced is not very large nor bright. If two sabers collide while a both duelists are using a stronger stance then the resulting flash will be quite large and very bright.

4. Add inconsequential “combat” animations, such as when the opponents’ sabers collide with each other yet neither individual is making an ACTUAL attack. A little animation would play where the other’s saber is pushed a little to the side in annoyance, or a “come get some” hand gesture is made from one opponent to the next.

5. The only other specific suggestion that I have at this time in regards to the look of the sabers is the length of their streaking saber trails. They still look too long to me. I feel that they’d be perfectly cinematic if their trail length was reduced by 25-35%. Perhaps the length that they have in this build could be kept whenever a combatant swings with extra ferocity (see “Lightsaber Combat” below for more details).



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LIGHTSABER COMBAT (this topic strongly connected to “Bots and Other A.I. Concerns” which is detailed below)

1. Why do those using a “weaker” style get knocked back when they’re attacking, but their target who is using a “stronger” style is NOT ? I’ve seen this happen time and again in regards to the Desaan One Handed Strong style. Maybe I’m misinterpreting the exhaustion-filled attacks of a tired attacker for something else?

2. Why are stronger styles slower when attacking? Shouldn’t the ONLY reason why they take longer to execute is because the saber is being positioned to a starting point that’s further away than in a less vigorous attack? It’s this greater “wind up” that leads to a more powerful attack, and this attack should have the FASTEST swing speed near the END of its swinging-arc because it has MORE energy and speed invested into it. The further a distance the saber travels, the more energy and time it has invested in it so said blade will be moving VERY quickly near the end of its swing. The shorter the saber’s swing, the less energy and time it has invested in it, so it travels more slowly. Now it may LOOK like shorter saber swings are moving faster than longer ones, but this is an ILLUSION. The shorter saber swings LOOK faster because they’re completing their shorter journeys more quickly than a longer saber swing does. A simple question illustrates my point: what would you rather be hit by, a baseball bat that’s been swung only two feet, or a baseball bat that’s been swung four feet? We have no doubts about which will hurt worse. The same should hold true for saber combat. What would be IDEAL is that the amount of energy that’s delivered by a saber is directly proportional to the distance that the blade has traveled. So, longer swing arcs increases the POTENTIAL for the saber to deliver more energy towards the target’s body or saber. Why do I use the term “potential?” If the saber of this longer swing is interrupted BEFORE it reaches its zenith, then it has delivered LESS energy than it COULD have. So, one’s saber stance would only determine how much POTENTIAL energy could be delivered against a target.

3. Those who are using the weakest/most defensive saber style have the advantage of being more likely to disarm their opponents and/or knock away lightsabers that are intercepted in midair.

4. “Weaker” saber stances should receive defense bonuses when it comes to parrying. This reflects the fact that the person using the weaker stance is being much more cautious, conservative, and analytical in regards to how they’re battling their opponent. Their caution is communicated by the shorter chops they use in battle. Since the chops have a shorter swing arc, their potential for delivering a lot of energy against their attacker’s defenses/body is much more limited than what is found in a stronger/more aggressive saber stance.

5. “Stronger” saber stances should receive attack bonuses when it comes to “blowing through” an opponent’s parry. Not only do stronger stances leave their users more vulnerable to counterattack because of the longer time it takes to wind up/prepare an attack, but it also lowers their capacity to parry/dodge incoming attacks. Those who use a stronger stance are more focused on quickly eliminating their enemy through the greater use of force and power; finesse and delicate analysis do not play parts in this more aggressive equation.

6. Extra Ferocity: Allow players to make an extra vigorous attack(s) by holding down a hotkey, or this could be a combat state that’s automatically entered whenever a dueler RUNS towards/into his/her target. They’d receive bonuses to disarming, unbalancing, knocking back/down and/or stunning the target. However, they’d receive substantial penalties to their own defensive capabilities and they’d drain their offensive energy reserves more quickly. This combat state could be utilized during ANY type of saber style.

7. Even though it’s been enabled in the menu options, there are still no lightsaber lockups. Why? If lightsaber lockups are allowed, I hope that alternate depictions of this kind of event are permitted to be experienced. For example, it’d be nice to see lockups that take place at different heights and points of leverages, such as at the waist, at the torso, and above the head. Perhaps the point at where the lockups occur is determined by the combatants’ currently selected saber styles; so for example two opponents who are fighting with a “strong” style are much more likely to have their lockup occur at/above head height. Virtually every duel we’ve seen in the films has had at least one saber lockup experience, and it would be quite immersive to have a 70% chance of having at least one lockup per match.

8. Integrate semi-deliberate saber locks and saber disarmaments. Have the strongest/most aggressive style be the most likely to initiate a saber lock. The fastest winner of the “break the lock” contest will be able to temporarily take advantage of knocking back and stunning his foe. The greater the margin of victory the more traumatic the result for the target. A minimal win will have the target take a step back while his saber arm is forced to the side, exposing his torso to an attack for a second. A moderate win will cause the target to stagger back to his knees and turn him to a side, partially exposing his back to the attacker for 1.50 seconds. A substantial victory will have the target stagger back, fall, and be stunned for 2.0-3.0 seconds.

9. Please allow for hotkeys to be assigned to SPECIFIC saber stances.

10. If I’m not mistaken about my observation, I really enjoy the fact that there aren’t any katas in this build of OJP E (aside from the front-rolling stab move). Frankly, the katas’ scripted sequences look flat out ridiculous when a person MISSES their target. I mean, how believable is it to see a duelist “freeze” in a position for several seconds and wave their arms around like a fool when a target is no longer within range? And to add insult to injury, their super long saber trails are so removed from what we’ve seen in the films that all it serves to do is remind us that what we’re experiencing is NOT the universe from the films. Without question, the “fastest” lightsaber swings we’ve ever witnessed were in Ep. 3 when Anakin and Obi-Wan are standing barely a yard apart and whirling their sabers just inches away from each others’ bodies. Their saber trails weren’t even HALF the length of the saber trails we see whenever a super fast kata is produced. I also feel that katas tend to be spammed, and can lead to wins that clearly aren’t skill based, which is something that OJP E really emphasizes: skills and tactics over lucky button mashing. Please continue to leave katas out of the game.

11. Finishing moves: the injured lives for 5 more seconds after a nonfatal wound is delivered (“nonfatal” meaning that the head or torso aren’t decapitated), and if the surviving player does nothing to “finish off” the injured individual, then said individual “naturally” weakens and expires within another 3 seconds. Injured opponents will assume one of several positions: those who have a hand lopped off will stand and look down in shock at the missing part, those who have an arm removed will drop to their knees in shock and look at their attacker, those who have a portion of their leg removed will fall to the ground and slowly writhe in a stunned silence. Once the “injured animation” starts playing, the injured target is no longer able to defend him/herself in any way, thus the attacker’s lightsaber will have no hindrance in its capabilities, meaning that any portion of the wounded’s body will INSTANTLY become decapitated. Basically, any swing that hits an injured target’s body will finally lead to their gruesome death. If one desires a “spectacular” finishing move, then they will need SKILL to do it. In a perverted sense, the type of finishing move described here will be just one more display of the champion’s prowess in lightsaber combat.

12. Please extend the time between the death of a duel’s last opponent and the displaying of the score. The default setting is just a fraction of a second long, and there’s really no time to assess exactly how a duel ended. By giving us several more seconds, not only do we get a chance to closely register/assess how the final moves were played out, but it also gives the champion’s aching hands a much deserved several seconds of rest before the next match begins.

13. Since the field of battle is so limited in scope in regards to the number of combatants that are present for Duels and Power Duels, the setting for rag doll physics should always be on. I’d make it optional to have this resource draining feature activated for maps that are more likely to have more players on it, such as Capture The Flag and Team Free For All.

14. Convert the automatic stab-down attack against a fallen foe with a much more sensible and believable one: the player leaps into a crouch and SWEEPS the floor with his/her lightsaber and this would almost always result in an automatic kill. Why would anyone armed with a melee weapon of any sort decide to STAB instead of swing a stunned target especially when one considers that a swing almost always guarantees a hit?

15. In regards to the “Seven Forms” of lightsaber combat, well, it sounds “nice” on paper, and unless boiled down into one or two very basic principles per form, is almost completely pointless to execute game wise. And this comment is coming from a person who has spoken at great length in person to the creator of the Seven Forms, David West Reynolds. Both of us went to University of Michigan, both of us held very high regards for the same professor (Prof. David Potter, a brilliant professor of ancient warfare and Classic Greek/Roman history), both of us bought our comics from the same comic book store (Dave’s Comic II, sadly now closed), and both of us were crazy about Star Wars. However, David’s love and archaeological skills put him in the perfect position to actually get hired by Rick McCullum to take Lucasfilm staff back to Tunisia to try and find the original locations used in the first Star Wars film for filming the new bits for the Star Wars Special Editions (and “Yes,” I got VERY cool insider information LONG before any of it got out to the press). From there, he was able to write several oversized “technology” books based on the Star Wars films, and to continue writing such articles for the official Star Wars magazine. And so, as much as I like David, and as much as I enjoy his work, I would not go through all of the trouble to integrate the Seven Forms into this mod. Why?

First of all, just TRY to make sense of Wookieepedia’s summation on the topic, which is far more concise and clear than much of the Expanded Universe’s treatment of the material: http://starwars.wikicities.com/wiki/Lightsaber_combat . Now, I really admire and appreciate Razorace’s very thorough and hard efforts on this remarkable mod. That being said, I’d hate to almost literally bury him into interpreting the unbalanced Seven Forms into a saber combat system that is ALREADY highly geared for strategic, logical and BALANCED play. It’s highly evident how much of a perfectionist Razorace already is; I just don’t feel it’s fair to expect him to FULLY interpret and translate the sometimes bizarre Seven Forms into a cohesive system of game play.

At the most, I would simply ascribe the already existing stances to a Seven Forms description that matches it the most closely. So, would the strongest/most aggressive stance be the equivalent of the Vaapad form? Would the weakest/most defensive stance be the equivalent of the Soresu form?

Carefully read through the Seven Forms. How in the world would one begin to fairly balance such a system, as some of the forms as described are CLEARLY superior to others? Why would any player then want to deviate from the blatantly superior forms?

I firmly believe that it’s far wiser use of time to balance out the stances that already exist in OJP E, than to sit down and ponder over how one can take the arcane-described and clearly unbalanced Seven Forms system and make it applicable for game play.



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MISSILE WEAPON COMBAT

1. Missile weapon balance can be achieved by having its mass influence the player’s movement rate. The more powerful the weapon is, the denser it is. The heavier a player becomes the slower and less agile he gets, and this also applies to the player’s ability to twist and turn. Heavier players have a much more difficult time at jumping, and even climb more slowly. Heavier weapons are also more challenging to aim.

The added advantage to having weapon power + its density=movement/agility/jump/turn rate is that it SELFREGULATES every choice the player makes. There is NO need for creating “classes” in the classic sense. If a player wants to play a “Weapons God,” then let them pick all the weapons/gear they want. In most classic class-based systems, that would be a massively unbalanced player, BUT with this system, said player would soon find that his walk/run rate are that of a turtle, his agility is that of a cow, he can jump as high as a worm, and his turn rate is that of a tree. See, INSTANT and FAIR balance without having to needlessly agonize over what class can do this, and what class can do that. And on top of all that, it’s BELIEVABLE as all of us have had prior experiences with trying to carry too much stuff around.


2. It’d be very immersive to be able to aim via an iron sight/scoped system. Not aiming in this fashion would lead to MAJOR penalties in hitting one’s target, just as it is in real life, and just as we’ve seen it time and again in the Star Wars films. Over and over again, we see them aiming down the center of their weapon.

3. And another sight that’s commonly seen in the films: the characters make use of cover, and frequently LEAN out from behind said protection before engaging their enemies.



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BOTS AND OTHER A.I. CONCERNS

1. Most of the time, on the very first spawn on a map, the opponent bot appears IMMEDIATELY next to the player’s spawn point, and this is in spite of the fact that the bot’s spawn point is typically a dozen yards or so away. Generally this bug disappears after the first round has been concluded.

2. Bots like to hop on top of people. This really dampens the sense of immersion, but on a number of maps it IS important for bots to be able to jump. Is there a way to reduce/eliminate their tendency to jump on top of others?

3. Bots need to be better at conserving their defensive/offensive energies, which means they need to know when it’s wise to make a temporary tactical retreat, especially if they’ve been disarmed. Without knowing when to retreat, the bots tend to press ahead to a point of total exhaustion, too often leaving them vulnerable to a better reasoned and energetic counterattack. Ideally, in spite of such retreats, they would still defend themselves with hand-to-hand combat techniques, but these need to be broadened so that such unarmed individuals stand a better chance at survival till their sabers once again became available.

4. Bots frequently move in a “shaky” fashion. Is there any way to smooth this shakiness away? They also have a tendency to simply stop where they’re at and stare off into one direction.

5. Can bots’ .pk3 files be written so that RGB colors are assigned to their saber blades and will this work in the game when they’re spawned? What files would need to be manipulated, and what kind of text would need to be entered to enable this feature? Could you supply a blank bot template to serve as a guide? I can only imagine how many players out there would get excited over the prospect of assigning RGB colors to a bot file, and then seeing them active within the game.

6. Bots need to more efficiently/effectively utilize their melee skills. As it stands right now, all they do is punch at a saber wielding opponent. It would be nice to see them being able to execute F.E.A.R. like moves on them, or, at the very least, have them be able to competently execute sideways kicks. While a broader range of combat moves are already available to use, they’re frequently not used by the bots.

7. Bots need to try recalling their dropped lightsabers more often. Frequently they’ll run around for a minute or more completely weaponless. It’s rare that I have this problem as a player, so this bot limitation should thus be eliminated.

8. The default saber assigned to bots is the most boring design available. Could you have a better looking saber assigned for the default slot, or even better yet, enable an option to have the sabers randomly assigned to the bot each time it’s spawned? To push it even further, one could come up with a GUI option whereby the players can set whether or not they desire to have not only the particular model of saber to be randomly assigned to bots, but also if they want the saber style (single, dual or saberstaff) also randomly assigned.

9. I really admire how well you’ve implemented the bots’ utilization of deactivating their sabers. There’s been several times where they got the jump on me and gave me a good scare. Nice work!






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GRAPHICAL USER INTERFACE AND/OR CONFIG FILE OPTIONS

1. Get rid of the Power Duel team member icon. All it does is serve to pull the player from being fully immersed in the experience. How it’s possible for players to have to actually rely on this annoying feature is beyond my capability to understand. After all, how can one NOT know who one’s partner is on a map that only allows three players to spawn onto?

2. Supply an option via a GUI to play team based games without using the blue/red team based skins and sabers. This is one feature that I LOVED from ForceMod 3, as it really added to making the experience feel far more cinematic than it otherwise would.

3. Enable through GUI an option to have the bots saber type and range of saber styles to be randomly assigned each time the player faces against him/her.

4. Here’s an option that I’m completely confident the community would go head over heels for: integrate into the GUI the ability to specify whether or not the weapons that are loaded onto the maps are from the Republic, Imperial, or a “mixed” era.

5. Allow us to specify how long we want the corpses to be present on the board. Please allow an option for “permanent.”

6. Give us a capability to boost the number of bots/players that can be present on a map. Currently the default value for player/bot assignment is the standard sixteen, and I’m sure that by now quite a few community members have systems that can handle more than that. Perhaps two higher count options would be greatly appreciated: give us the capability to select 16, 22 (or 26?), or 30 (or 36?) bots/players. Whatever number is selected, a corresponding number of assignable slots would then be made available for match building; obviously this would mean that if more slots are desired then the font sizes would have to be smaller so that they all could be seen/interacted with on the screen.



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MISCELANEOUS SUGGESTIONS

1. Allow team icons for all game types to be eliminated. This would go a long way in enabling players to setup movie-defined teams of allied characters. Such setups don’t require the use of the huge floating and un-cinematic icons because everyone knows which side of the battle each character is already on just by seeing who the character is.

2. I can’t remember the name of the mod that’s already done this, but it would be VERY nice to have this same feature in OCP E; it adds Darth Vader’s mechanical breathing to his model(s) in an ambient fashion. Perhaps this feature could be added to a config file in such a way that future releases of Vader can be added to a list, and voila, the mod will play the ambient breathing effect for that model. In my opinion, the best Vader model to date is this one: http://jediknight2.filefront.com/file/Vader_VM_Episode_III;48471 , although HapSlash has an even better one in the works…that’s if it’s ever released. ; )

3. I see that maps typically devoted to dueling are now accessible in other game types. I have to wonder if this dramatically reduces the opportunity for the player to have access to maps that were specifically designed for those game types. Is there any way to at least double the length of the list of maps that are presented to the player as potential battlegrounds, so that having the duel maps included into those lists really doesn’t become an issue?

4. Create a dueling video that plays whenever the player loads up JA. One could even use a video from a Star Wars film, if it’s so desired. It’d also be nice if our view of the video wasn’t overly obscured by the GUI on the Main Screen.

5. When you’re spectating a player/bot, the text that’s displaying the player’s name is far too large and intrusive. If possible, please relocate this data high up into the left hand corner, where it’ll be out of the way so that the action can be more readily seen.

6. Please please please PLEASE oh PRETTY please get rid of the Force Dodge sound effect when an automatic dodge/evasion is made. It would be much more believable to hear the rubbing of cloth and a little bumping of gear than to hear that over-the-top sound effect whenever someone evades/dodges.

7. As #6 above, please oh PLEASE replace the Force Exhaustion sound with something a little more subtle, like maybe a rapidly beating heartbeat. The Force Exhaustion is such an alien sound to what one thinks about when it comes to vigorous exertion; the sound of a rapidly beating heart would maintain this crucial parameter and thus enhance the sense of immersion.

8. Models should be assigned a height scale, so that they look more proper in the game to what we’ve seen in the films. 6’ tall Jawas and Yodas go a long way to killing any sense of immersion when battling these models. Since taller characters would have a greater range (not only would they have longer arms, but their lightsabers would also be scaled to their size), it’d be important to incorporate an attributes system that scales up/down based on the character’s height to balance out the consequences of scaling.

Here’s an example of what I mean. If the average height is 1.01 (Katarn’s height is set to 1.0, but the figure 1.01 is the most common one) then any character who is of that same height has no advantages/disadvantages in regards to game play. The taller one gets, the greater one’s reach is with a lightsaber, and the stronger one gets (increases the odds of “blowing through” a target’s defenses), BUT greater height also means that one travels slower and gets a slower swing rate. The smaller one gets, the shorter one’s reach becomes and the less strength it has behind an attack, but shorter height also means that one travels faster and gets a faster swing rate. Yoda from Ep. 2 and 3 epitomizes this concept.

Assigning base attributes to a scaleable height system would thus lend a much broader range of experiences both against players and bots. ForceMod 3 only integrated the movement rate into the variable height function, and it was quite successful at what it did. I think that pushing the system further in such a fashion is not only believable but also exciting to contemplate.


9. Please replace the “suddenly horizontal OMG he’s spinning five times before he hits the ground” death animation with something far more believable. This kind of extreme death looks ridiculous even when death is caused by explosive devices.

10. Remove the yellow glow from a dropped/returning saber hilt. I don’t see why the player needs an advantage to look for it. If it’s lost, then that’s the player’s fault, and as Obi-Wan said in Episode 2, a foolish Jedi loses it at his/her own peril.

11. At this point in time it seems to me that a far more pressing need than to create the 7 saber styles would be to expand on the MARTIAL ARTS moves that are available to the player when he/she is disarmed. This is especially important since becoming disarmed is a fairly common occurrence, and the already available kickboxing routine is far too limited in its scope. Perhaps when the player is disarmed, they’re automatically switched to martial arts mode which allows them to select a combat style, such as karate type moves (such as the amazingly brutal ones that can be experienced in F.E.A.R.) versus ones that are more judo like (throwing opponents and/or getting them into chokeholds where a contest of mouse clicks determines whether the chokehold is maintained; if the choke isn’t broken, the opponent is suffocated to death). Broadening these options would certainly add a greater sense of hope for the disarmed player to escape his/her predicament.

12. Allow us to specify whether or not we want the single duelist in Power Duels to have “150” or “100” points of health. I think that it’d be more impressive if the single duelist was able to eliminate his/her enemies with the same amount of starting health that their opponents had.

13. Whenever a player is Force Pushed by another, their view is shaken to a degree. If a Force Push is successfully stopped by a player, then they’ll only experience a VERY mild degree of “camera shake.” If they’re unable to resist their opponent’s Force attack, then their camera is really shaken, and when they finally crash against a surface, their camera is very briefly shaken even harder. I feel that this will make the combat feel even more visceral and lend a sense of tactility.



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Whew! That’s a novella of highly detailed feedback, isn’t it? I hope that it proves to be intellectually stimulating, as well as useful.

I thorough enjoy playing OJP E. The current build is just phenomenal at depicting saber collisions. You made HUGE strides here, and this work goes FAR beyond anything Raven did.

I simply cannot wait to see what else you have in store for us.

As always,

Yours!

Kyle
Feb. 16, 2006

:)

.

Kyle Kelasheski
02-16-2006, 01:19 AM
Just thought I should mention that the version of OJP E that I was testing was version 5. I'm happy to see that a version 6 has since been recently released, and I'm eager to try it out soon.

Yours,

Kyle
Feb. 16, 2006

:)

.

JRHockney*
02-16-2006, 02:08 AM
:drop2: :freakout: I feel like I just read an encyclopedia page or two!! Razor, if you ever thought my posts were long...... lol. Anyways...

Version0.0.6 fixed alot of the bugs you mentioned and version 0.0.7 (which is coming out soon will fix even more of them.)

Since I mainly discuss saber combat with razor, I focus on that for my response.

Regarding the sabers themselves, not my area , butmany of your suggestions sound like good ones. I'm not sure if Razor made those flashes himself or not so he might not be able to make them bigger with stronger hits. Adding completely new animations takes a lot of time and is very hard to do unless you have 3dmax or are a master of Wudans dragon program and to my knowledge, razor mainly just uses pre-existing animation replacements for the most part.

Saber combat wise, you should really read the saber combat suggestions thread and not only will you see how this system came to be the way it currently is, but you will see that several of youre suggestions have already been discussed. A few things to point out:

1. all the saber styles currently do the same DP damage and razor is trying really hard to make them all move at the same speed (eventhough I like their speeds and just want differing DP damages, but thats just me). Its hard for him to do that because they already technically are moving at the same speed, but the number of animation frames are different between the styles. Because the styles do not currently have differing "strengths" DP or HP damage wise, many of your suggestions involving this area wouldn't really make sense at the moment.

2. The Extra feocity is not too bad of an idea, but it might have the potential to be spammed by people constantly backing up and running if that approach is taken. The hotkey idea would be better but razor is already adding a more powerful attack fake to the system in the next build that kind of doubles as a power swing. You can read about that in the saber suggestions thread.

3. I already suggested the 7 forms combat ideas on the suggestions thread as well and youll have to read there why it wasn't implemented yourself (because I can't remember! LOL).

4. We've also already discussed finishing moves and I think razor will get around to it one way or another.

12. Please extend the time between the death of a duel’s last opponent and the displaying of the score. The default setting is just a fraction of a second long, and there’s really no time to assess exactly how a duel ended. By giving us several more seconds, not only do we get a chance to closely register/assess how the final moves were played out, but it also gives the champion’s aching hands a much deserved several seconds of rest before the next match begins.


Might be a good idea.


9. Please allow for hotkeys to be assigned to SPECIFIC saber stances.

Might be a good idea if it can be done. Heck, that might even be possible with binds already but I'm prompt retarded. :p

Well that's all the brain I have left right now. But seriously, read the saber suggestions thread and you'll see what we've been planning for the system. Enhanced version 0.0.7 and 8 will rock beyond the extent of rocking if you already like this system. Thanks for spending so much time writing.

Have fun reading this and responding, Razor! LOL

Kyle Kelasheski
02-16-2006, 02:57 AM
JRHockney,

Yeah, that WAS a long post, but I did warn everyone about it! lol

Thank you for your reply. I have looked through that thread already several times, but I frankly don't have the time to comb through it completely. It's good to know that some of the bugs that I reported have already been fixed in v. 6, which I love by the way. The new saber stances, and the fact that they're maintained while moving is a very VERY nice plus!

I just want to make sure that ALL the bases are covered though. So I'm posting below an image that captures many of the saber collision bugs that I experienced in v. 5, plus a new saber bug that's in v. 6. Yes, I'm sorry to report, v. 6 does have a bug! lol

Here's the collage depicting what I've mentioned earlier, plus the new v. 6 bug:

[img=http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/9638/ojpesabercollisionmisalignment.th.jpg] (http://img214.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ojpesabercollisionmisalignment.jpg)


Strafing/sidestepping in the 1st. person perspective while in one of the new stances results in this very visible glitch: the saber blade does not stay inside the hilt's blade emitter! How embarassing! Imagine just how hard the Sith baddies will laugh at such a sight. lol

I hope it's easily remedied, as visually it's my favorite new stance.

I'm happy that you like some of my other suggestions, and I hope that they all get added (of course!). ; )


One aspect that became even clearer to me with v. 6 is just how much tweaking the bots need. They're still jumping on heads and staying there. They're still running way to much; in fact not once did I see any of the bots assume one of the new stances and keep it while moving. I can only assume that this is due to them running all the time.

However, one improvement I saw them exhibit a bit better is that they're more likely to pursue you up heights using Force Jump. In build v. 5 they never did this. With build v. 6 they did this some. I don't know if this was a conscious adjustment or not, but it sure seems like something was tweaked to make this admirable trait occur more often.

Here are some bugs that I forgot to mention that were in v. 5, and are still present in v. 6:

1. When climbing, the lightsaber does not emit a deactivation sound.
2. When faking a swing, there are no saber movement sounds.

That's it for now. I have one more image to post and then I'm off to bed.

Yours,

Kyle
Feb. 16, 2006

:)

.

Tapela
02-16-2006, 04:23 PM
The saber "collision" crashes you're having seem to be because of saberlocking. This has been fixed in 0.0.7 enhanced as Razorace has stated (saberlocks will work in this version). To get around it and play crash free simply disable saberlocks as they cause it, I'm pretty sure thats it because from those screens thats what happened to me and it was always during a possible saberlock.

As for your suggestions, which seem to be very nit picky and "Roleplayer /bow plz" based, I simply don't like em. Alot of the stuff simply changes too much for too little. For instance I do not see a reason for the heart beating sound, its a game and its a hud :P. Its kind of contradicting to be okay with the HUD but hate a HUD sound. Nevertheless i love the force depleted sound, its clear and noisy enough to actually remind you that hey you're in a weak state, thats usually easily forgotten when dueling. Same for force dodge sound, imo.

The graphic effects on the saber trails you comment on arent razoraces implementation, they're the base JKA ones and while I do agree they look pretty ugly if you look hard enough. I don't think he should have to change them for the mods sake. I think the sabersystem and balancing is more important than some graphics. But yeah I can agree, I have been looking for a mod that edits them like MovieBattles II's trails (which look pretty nice), so far the best I've found was whitening the core so theres no "streak" but its still really long for a trail.

For the stances, I like using red style, the swings are pretty long ranged and I guess its just preference from base JO. But the problem I've encountered mostly is that the wind up is just too slow to parry people or even attack when they're stunned because usually my saber is recoiling slowly from the impact or winding down from the swing. The swing speed itself doesnt seem too slow, just the wind up part. Hopefully with the stance attributes or whatever is being implemented in 0.0.7 will make red more usable in ojp against people who furiously keep attacking (double sabers etc).

JRHockney*
02-16-2006, 07:40 PM
Hopefully with the stance attributes or whatever is being implemented in 0.0.7 will make red more usable in ojp against people who furiously keep attacking (double sabers etc).

To tell you the truth, I'm a little worried about red style in the next version. There supposedly arent going to be varying DP damages for the styles and unless razor can make the windup animation faster for red in time, red is going to be wickedly underpowered against faster styles; especially since you can no longer parry while attacking or in a forced block. Simply put, unless I'm missing something from the the saber combat discussions, Red needs more DP damage or some other advantage so it doesn't suck to use! I'll have to comment more at the saber suggestions thread about this.

razorace
02-16-2006, 07:55 PM
1. While it may be available in other game types, there is no ability to specify the game-ending score for Team Free For All.
Uh, it's just "fraglimit" but I assume you're referring to the menus. Is the problem in the Solo Game or Create a Server menus?

3. For some reason, it seems like every time an electrostaff (that one that came with the very popular and superb MagnaGuardVM model
It's probably the saberlock bug. It should be fixed in the next release.

4. This build of OJP E seems fairly unstable compared to the last build I played half a year ago.
saberlock bug.

For instance, I was playing with only 8 slots assigned to bots, and after starting the game back up after another crash I noticed that the slot number was increased by 1.
Already been fixed. :)

5. Many sabers that are thrown produce a second red blade that points straight down towards the ground. On second thought, maybe the “red blade” is actually the red line representing the x axis of the 3D model. Most of the time, this “red line/blade” shows up the most often in Solo Mode, but once in a while can also be found in the Create a Mission Mode.
Not sure about this one. I'll need more information since I've never seen it before.

6. In non-duel game types, all of the bots are randomly spawned with different saber styles and sabers; this is intentional, yes?
Actually the bots spawn according to their bot files. It's just that bot files are randomly selected when bot_minplayers adds bots to the game. If you want to be more picky, manually add the bots to the game using the Add Bot menu item.

7. In Power Duel, if one has 4 slots open, with the first 3 being filled by bots, and the last slot reserved for a human player who is playing as the single duelist, then the game will not rotate the third bot in who is also a single duelist. Whenever the player loses, the game tries to load the other single duelist bot, but it’s never successful at doing so.
Not sure about this one either. Maybe try it again to see if it's a continuing problem?

Kyle Kelasheski
02-18-2006, 01:29 AM
I appreciate all of your comments! Here are some specific replies...


Razorace,

In regards to the electrostaff causing the crashing bug, well, I went in and turned saberlock off, and yet the electrostaff still caused the game to crash. After the third time this happened, I simply gave up on having the MagnaGuard droid in the maps. I thought that I read on some web site that featured a download of the MagnaGuard/electrostaff package that the electrostaff was tweaked to do less damage than a normal saberstaff, since in the films both Obi-Wan and Grievous were smacked by that thing and they still kept on coming. Perhaps the bug is related to how much damage is being assigned whenever the electrostaff hits a target.

The "red line/blade" bug that occassionally occurs when a saber is thrown happens the most frequently in "Solo Mode." It happens less frequently in a "Create Mission Mode." If I'm not mistaken, when this bug occurs it always happens as the saber reaches its maximum distance and begins to fall to the ground.

I think I need to be more specific in regards to bots appearing with randomly assigned sabers/saber colors in non-duel type matches. The bots that I'm describing have been manually assigned by me, and yet they're still appearing with lightsabers that are different than what's defined in their bot files, and the color of the sabers differ as well. Is there a setting that can be changed in the config file to make sure that sabers and their colors are not randomly assigned to player-defined bots? I looked through the config several times, and saw no such listing. What's a little tricky about this is that I don't want to confuse two separate issues: being able to toggle on/off team based skins/sabers and being able to toggle on/off the option to have sabers randomly assigned to bots. In my mind, they're two desirable features that are quite different from each other.

The Power Duel "the second single bot duelist is never cycled" bug is constant. I've never yet seen it not happen. Typically, the single duelist bot appears for only the first match, and then afterwards whenever the single duelist player loses his match the game tries to load the bot, but it always fails and the player is once again dueling. In my opinion, this isn't such a bad bug for those people who're playing only against bots, as it ensures that the player will more quickly get to duel again, but I can easily imagine that this bug would become a frustrating one for online sessions. Who knows, maybe this bug is only confined to bot-only matches.

I want to send HUGE accolades your way for a feature that I've just encountered with the TAB bots: they do a pretty decent job travelling maps without bot routes--this was a major and happily received surprise! Thank you! For the first time I was able to actually enjoy playing on some truly awesome looking maps, such as CaptainM's jaw droppingly gorgeous work on his jedi_temple and jedi_temple_battle maps. Now this opens up a whole new world to me, as I've always made it a rule to never download maps that don't come with bot routes. Are there any STUNNINGLY well made bot-route-free maps out there that you'd STRONGLY recommend to me? I now have a very good reason to add them to my library (please note that anyone can answer this question, as this forum's member's opinions are important to me)! :ears1:

I'd like to recommend that you check into the following saber effects mods that I tried out in OJP E. The mod "better_sabers" holds two files: one that alters how the saber blades look and another that alters their sounds. I dropped both of them into OJP E and noticed that the better_blades did not suffer from the "saber blade is outside the emitter" bug that I featured in the above image. I really liked its exhaustive sampling of Prequel sound effects, but the one sound effect that stood out to me was that frequently when the sabers collided we'd here the "rattling" saber collision sound we first heard when Maul saberlocked both Jinn's and Kenobi's sabers in Ep. 1. To me, this "rattling" effect would be better assigned to a brief saberlock sound. The effect sounded too "loose" to me to be assigned to an event as definate as two swinging sabers colliding with each other violently. The other saber effects mod I tried is "Episode 3 Sabers v 3." This mod is primarily concerned with how the sabers look, and I have to say they look very very accurate to what we've seen in the Prequels. One feature I really liked about is that the extra glow near the emitter is kept fairly small, which is something that too many other saber mods get wrong; too often they make it much too large. Most of the times in the films, we don't see this "extra emitter glow" at all, and it's usually only visible for the closeups. Both of these saber mods can be found at pcgamemods.com .



Tapela,

"...As for your suggestions, which seem to be very nit picky and "Roleplayer /bow plz" based, I simply don't like em. Alot of the stuff simply changes too much for too little. For instance I do not see a reason for the heart beating sound, its a game and its a hud :P. Its kind of contradicting to be okay with the HUD but hate a HUD sound. Nevertheless i love the force depleted sound, its clear and noisy enough to actually remind you that hey you're in a weak state, thats usually easily forgotten when dueling. Same for force dodge sound, imo. ..."

I'm not a roleplayer, and I've yet to bow to anyone in a match. I've only played JA twice online. :giggle1: So allow me to flesh out a bit more of why I offered up the suggestions that I did, that way your next assessment of my intentions might be more accurate.

Without question, we here have a lightsaber mod that is striving to be absolutely true to the heart of the combat that we've seen in the films. If one wants to heighten and maintain a high level of immersion, then it's really important to be as consistent as possible. Breaking consistency breaks immersion.

I strongly feel that if one carefully reads over all of the posts that I've ever made on this forum that one will see that I am entirely consistent in my game design convictions. The "class-free" weapons/gear suggestion I give above falls right in line with what we've experienced in our own lives and it's also what we've seen in the films. Now I know that some players just love their "running and gunning and bunny-hopping" ways, but I'm completely convinced that game players are getting tired of this one-trick pony. The success of this mod proves my point: it is much more demanding/challenging than Raven's awful "hyper-adrenaline-fueled" system and yet the fact that players are embracing this mod proves that they really want something that is much more complex/rewarding than what can be easily found in today's standard "how much bigger can the explosions of gore get?" fare.

The class-less combat system is an idea that I did not come up with. I used to be very active in playing online a tremendous total conversion of Unreal Tournament known as "Infiltration." I think that it's very fair to say that it is probably the first, and still the most accurate depiction of real life infantry combat yet made. "Yes" it is far more accurate than "America's Army." This game is brutally hardcore (and I MEAN that; every body movement one makes depletes one's stamina, and that influences every decision that one makes in this shooter-simulator), very unforgiving, and yet it is very, very VERY rewarding. Why? Because once one learns how to operate within the strict and real world parameters of the game, and once one can survive several encounters against some of the smartest players online, well, it's quite an adrenaline rush. No other shooter comes close to generating the sense of utter accomplishment that one gets from playing this mod, and it's because it demands that the player do more than simply shoot while running at an ubelievably fast pace; it demands the application of solid tactics and smart reasoning.

The above glowing descriptors for Infiltration precisely fit the remarkable saber system that Razorace has defined, and that's because at the heart of both endeavors is the same goal; they're both aiming very high in regards to making players very happy by constantly pitting them against very demanding challenges.

The class-less weight/movement system I described above is not geared towards roleplaying, but rather emulating what we've seen in the films, and what we've seen in the films parallels real life approaches to combat. And as "nitpicky" as my suggestions may seem, I still feel that they fall right in line to the principles that Razorace is exemplifying with how he's shaping the saber combat system. And my class-less suggestions, as detailed and demanding as they may seem are still a world away from the strictures one faces in Infiltration, which applies real world physics to ballistics, body movements, exhaustion, and altering one's capacity to regain one's stamina by literally counting the weight of EVERY magazine, weapon, and grenade that's discarded during combat.

I'm just hopeful that when all is said and done, not only will OJP E perfectly capture the almost god-like "one hit one kill" terror of dueling Force Users, but that it will also capture the "one/two blaster bolts = you're dead" terror of those wielding missile weapons. By placing the player's gaming heart into his throat, one's going to guarantee an adrenaline rush that'll be hard to ignore.


Time for me to go to bed fellas. I really enjoyed reading what all of you had to say, and I appreciate the fact that this community seems to go out of its way to be clear and thorough in its communications. I guess you could say that I'm in definately in that category, lol.

Good night, and I hope your weekend is off to a great start!

Kyle
Feb. 18, 2006

:lol:

JRHockney*
02-18-2006, 04:01 AM
The other saber effects mod I tried is "Episode 3 Sabers v 3." This mod is primarily concerned with how the sabers look, and I have to say they look very very accurate to what we've seen in the Prequels. One feature I really liked about is that the extra glow near the emitter is kept fairly small, which is something that too many other saber mods get wrong; too often they make it much too large.

Hey Razor! This one's done by Cloud too!!! LOL! It is pretty decent as well.

razorace
02-18-2006, 05:22 AM
Have a link?

Tapela
02-18-2006, 07:02 AM
http://www.pcgamemods.com/mod/13739.html Link to Episode 3 Sabers V3.


I havent tried it myself, I'm currently using the suggested sound pack by him which grew on me quickly with some other saber mod, pk3 is called NewBladesv4. Here is a link to that. http://www.pcgamemods.com/mod/15491.html Anyways I'll be sure to try the episode 3 sabers v3 later on, but so far I think that "Episode 3 Blades v4" is the best saber mod I've seen, the tip isnt pointed weirdly like some other mods and the rbg sabers tend to be and the trail core is made competely white so the swings look good. Unfortunately the mod doesnt change the actual length of the swing trails like in MBII but it still looks great since theres no streaking.

Lathain Valtiel
02-18-2006, 02:35 PM
Don't bother integrating them into the mod itself...

Instead, work on the modular saber blade core feature so we can all do it as we please.

Kyle Kelasheski
02-18-2006, 03:31 PM
Razorace,

Another bug, although I don't know if it's something you can adjust from your end, or it's a bug that's "hardcoded" into the map by the map's maker. In any case, here's the problem: in a majority of the maps that do NOT have bot routes the player and bots alike all spawn at the SAME point at the SAME time. Exploded body parts are everywhere! lol Is there any way that the spawning events could be spaced out both in the sense of AREA or TIME? If only one spawn point can be supplied, then it becomes critical that there is a short delay before the other participants spawn so that the earlier spawned character(s) has an opportunity to clear the spawn zone.

And one more AI concern: is there any way to make them scan the entirety of their environment more frequently? Too often the bots just stop moving, and face one direction (usually a structure). If one walks into their peripheral vision and/or within their hearing range, they will then look at the new opponent to engage. If they would pivot on their feet to scan the area they're stopped at, then perhaps this would lead to them getting into engagements more quickly.

And by the way, if you need help in setting up a model height scale system (hopefully linked to an attributes adjusting system as I suggested above) then let me know, and I'll approach Azymn to ask him if he'll let us use the .INI files that contain said data for ForceMod III. I put a TON of time into these files, and I'm guessing that I more or less doubled or tripled the number of models that were contained within the .INIs. I'm pretty confident that he won't have any issues with sharing these resources with us so that we can significantly cut down on the production time if we were to go with such a system for OJP E.

And before I forget, if you desire to have anything designed from scratch for OJP E, then please feel free to think of me as a potential designer. If you check out the links in my signature, you'll be taken to other mods I've done drawings for. The drawings are almost entirely focused on designs set in the Star Wars universe. I'm contributing to the "real world" Operation Flashpoint mods primarily in testing and giving game play design suggestions, although for the Dynamic AI Creator mod I'm doing the editing/proofreading of the German-English translation of the revolutionary utilitiy's in depth manual. Just look for any posting that has "Kyle_K_ski" in it and odds are you'll see some artwork there.

I'm particularly proud of my design for the Valiant cruiser http://adarkprophecy.proboards74.com/index.cgi?board=ship&action=display&thread=1136442404 and for the droid designs for the Star Wars total conversion for Operation Flashpoint http://gawmod.proboards85.com/index.cgi?board=gawgenquest&action=display&thread=1138656154

Of course, I'd be very interested in hearing this community's feedback on said work!




Tapela,

Thanks for the link to Episode 3 Sabers V4 . Somehow that file did not come up when I did a weapons search on pcgamemods.com. I have it now, and you can bet that I'm eager to see how those babies look in the game.

One other saber mod just got posted today, and it looks very, very promising. The author of this mod even supplies two different types of saber tips for those who prefer the pointy tip over the more commonly seen round ones. Here's a link to said file: http://jediknight2.filefront.com/file/Relatively_Perfect_Sabers;57115 .

One of the features that Azymn put into ForceMod III was that you could select from all kinds of different saber blade styles. It's pretty crazy to think about how different the sabers are from film to film, or in the case of Episode 3, how different they can appear in just the same film. He didn't offer any options for a pointy tip instead of a round one, but if it isn't too much work these kinds of options would make the community just drool.


Yours,

Kyle
Feb. 18, 2006

:)

.

razorace
02-18-2006, 06:27 PM
In any case, here's the problem: in a majority of the maps that do NOT have bot routes the player and bots alike all spawn at the SAME point at the SAME time.
That's just a problem with those individual maps. It means they don't have enough spawnpoints. I have implimented some code for MP that spreads out the spawning like you suggested, but it's only used in CoOp mode where it's needed sometimes. However, I don't think it's my role to make up for sloopy map/model/etc making since there's an infinite number of ways to screw up but only one way to do things right. I'd have to spend all my time fixing other people's mistakes, which isn't fun at all.

And one more AI concern: is there any way to make them scan the entirety of their environment more frequently? Too often the bots just stop moving, and face one direction (usually a structure).
Ah, someone finally noticed that. It's because I never finished the visual scanning behavior for when a bot loses sight of their enemy and goes looking for them. I didn't finish it at the time since I wasn't sure how to impliment that sort of looking back/forth action. I have some ideas now so I'll probably go back and fix that.

And by the way, if you need help in setting up a model height scale system (hopefully linked to an attributes adjusting system as I suggested above) then let me know, and I'll approach Azymn to ask him if he'll let us use the .INI files that contain said data for ForceMod III.
Model scaling is a bit of a low priority at the moment since I've never really come up with a good plan on how to balance the modelscaling vs the hit detection. Plus, a LOT of the code expects the players to be the same size. I'd be stuck tweaking settings to get it to work right for a long time and to be honest, it's not something that I've ever really cared about.

And before I forget, if you desire to have anything designed from scratch for OJP E, then please feel free to think of me as a potential designer.
Thanks for the offer, but I'm not sure what I'd get you to do. I'm only really a coder and don't have the capacity or time to create a lot of non-code based new content. However, I can always use more feedback on the gameplay and such. :)

Also, Op Flashpoint is the awesome.

One of the features that Azymn put into ForceMod III was that you could select from all kinds of different saber blade styles.
Yeah, that's what Lath was talking about earlier. I also agree with him that that's the best solution to our sound/blade needs. However, something like that would take a lot of work and it's something that I don't particularly care about (my main interests are saber combat, gameplay, and AI). As such, it will probably be done as I feel like it since I don't want to get burnt out doing something that isn't fun doing. That's why I stopped working on the NPC AI navigation code port for a while.

Lathain Valtiel
02-18-2006, 07:58 PM
The problem with Azymn's core selection system is that it only has a couple of slots.

What I'm asking for is a system similar to how the game processes hilts. You select your own blade core and saber sounds just as you would your hilt. If another client can't find the files in question, fall back on defaults.

razorace
02-19-2006, 03:30 AM
LIGHTSABER EFFECTS
2. Buh, that's not really my department. I'm pretty happy with the current saber blade effects.

3. I'm not sure that's technically possible since the effect sizes are determined by the saber clash fx file. I could probably make multiple sizes but I dont think it's nessicary, since all the attacks are supposed to have the same force behind them (one of my design philosophies is that all the styles should be roughly equal).

4. Mmm, I like the idea but it would slow down the gameplay too much. You'd force one or both of the players into animations that they couldn't abort and would leave them open to attack.

5. Well, right now I'm using the saber trail for giving a visual effect to the attack fakes. I'm not sure that tweaking the trails beyond that is nessicary.

JRHockney*
02-19-2006, 04:29 AM
Since a few of you gave links to saber mods, here an interesting one:
http://www.pcgamemods.com/mod/14374.html

This is interesting because it removes alot of the saber trail (blur) from swings and makes the swings (and power fakes) look more movie correct. However, there is a draw back to thisL: because the saber trail is shorter, the animations dont blend together as well and you can see the individual animations for the regular swings. I'm still debating whether or not I actually like this feature or not, so you can decide for yourselfs.

Lathain Valtiel
02-19-2006, 01:52 PM
Psst.

You can change the saber effects via .sab file. My sword has a nifty blue particle clash.

JRHockney*
02-19-2006, 07:09 PM
One other saber mod just got posted today, and it looks very, very promising. The author of this mod even supplies two different types of saber tips for those who prefer the pointy tip over the more commonly seen round ones. Here's a link to said file: http://jediknight2.filefront.com/fi...ct_Sabers;57115 .

Wow! Those saber trails are almost perfect and the glow is brightness is great! Although I do wish the fake saber trail was just a little shorter and the glow was a bit bigger, but this is a big improvement for movie realism. This in my opinion is the best saber mod for Enhanced.

Psst.

You can change the saber effects via .sab file. My sword has a nifty blue particle clash.

I couldn't find the sab.file you were talking about, but I retarded when it come to finding files with abbreviations I don't know LOL :p. I found one that had desann's and tavion's styles, but it only had length, radius, and I think effect options. I'm looking at modifying more the saberblur and saberglow than anything else. I tried editing the pictures themselves in the mod above, but that didn't work. I got an interesting "moving square" saber when I tried that. Any suggestions?

razorace
02-19-2006, 07:24 PM
there's a .sab file for each hilt. I think it's the in /ext_data of your assets files.

Lathain Valtiel
02-19-2006, 07:33 PM
HOckney: You probably didn't make the background of the jpg files dead black... Either that, or your files are plain messed up.

A .sab file can change the following about a saber hilt:

Its sounds
The damage effect it does to a person when it hits (Example: My sword draws blood)
The saber clash.

Can't do trails though. I thought you wanted saber clash.

JRHockney*
02-20-2006, 01:05 AM
HOckney: You probably didn't make the background of the jpg files dead black... Either that, or your files are plain messed up.

Got that part right, but I just realized that I can't change the overall size of the editing window without screwing it all up. I figured it out and just changed the trails to where their almost perfect. Hooray!

Kyle Kelasheski
02-20-2006, 03:48 AM
.

JRHockney,

I'm happy that you're enjoying the "Relatively Perfect Sabers" mod that I linked to. I think the glows look very appealing, however I do have some issues with them:

1. It has a rather prominent "ghost center line". Other saber mods have been able to reduce this very thin feathery center line that runs out of the center of the saber's tip.

2. In my opinion, its saber trails are too short. They need to be lengthened by 25-35%.



I tried Tapela's recommended saber effects mod "NewBladesV4" and I happen to feel that both in regards to the brightness of the glow, the thickness and color of its core, as well as its trail length that it's about as true to the Episode III look as we're going to get. It has some problems though, which can be seen in this screenshot: (http://img96.imageshack.us/my.php?image=newbladesv4stanceerror8vt.jpg)

1. OJP E's stances are fouled up for the extra positions we can take beyond the default Raven ones. This you can see in the screenshot.

2. I use RGB saber settings, and they're not being applied to my saber.

3. First person perpective does not work.


Other than that, the saber blades are [I]perfect. :spin:


Really though, except for how the blades affect some of OJP E's features, the appearance of them is dead on. I'm wondering if this is because these sabers come with stances of their own, and are thus interfering with what OJP E wants to do? I know that he's included a separate .pk3 for the JA+ mod, so maybe that's a part of it too. If the 3 bugs stated above could be ironed out, I wouldn't hesitate to make this saber mod a permanent addition to my "ojpenhanced" directory.

The other feature that's nice about the NewBladesV4 saber mod is that they've been enhanced to take advantage of DynamicGlow, and boy does it show!

If someone can figure out what's wrong, and post an updated version for us to use, it'd be GREATLY appreciated!





Razorace,

I certainly understand why you wouldn't want to go through all the trouble of adjusting other people's maps that had poorly thought out spawn points.

In regards to being able to have models/bots of different sizes in the game, I didn't realize that enabling such a design would create extra work in regards to saber hit detection and what have you. That being said, I'm hoping that there still might be the possibility of enabling a much more rigorous scaling system. Instead of having an open ended ForceMod 3 scaling system as I suggested above, perhaps you'd be more open to the idea of supplying a small .INI file that would only allow for up to THREE sizes: (1.) Vader size, (2.) Average size, and (3.) Yoda size. Maybe by limiting the assigning of model scaling so drastically it would cut down on the amount of work that would be needed to balance them out. I feel that a lot of players would REALLY appreciate the capability to play duels that look almost as real as the films, and having properly scaled models, especially of the major players, would go a long way to meeting that goal. If you want to go ahead with such a scaling system, I'd be happy to assist on entering in listings to the .INI file.

Is there any way you could set the next release of OJP E to automatically bypass the opening animations for JA? This would speed up our ability to join/start a game, and it would thus gives us more time to test the game.

Also, is there a way to enable the more realistic model shading we can use/see in the JA singleplayer game? And is there a way to enable the use of the more 3D looking Force Push/Pull effects?

If you so desire, feel free to integrate whatever sound effects you enjoy from my recently posted sound effects mod that can be found here: http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=160904 .

Well now, it's once again WAY past my bedtime. Goodnight all, and I hope we all have a wonderful start to a new work week.

Yours,

Kyle
Feb. 20, 2006

:)

.

razorace
02-20-2006, 06:22 AM
1. It's probably using animation files to screw with the animations. As such, it's conflicting with the Enhanced animations.

2. All blade mod I've seen so far don't affect the rgbsabers since they only alter the image files for the individual saber colors. If you want them to affect the rgbsabers, all you'd have to do is make them for the rgbsaber files. This might be as easy as renaming the files but I don't know for sure. Lath might know more about this subject.

3. That doesn't make any sense. Does the rest of the Enhanced stuff work right? I can't imagine the True View not working if the rest of the mod is working right.

I feel that a lot of players would REALLY appreciate the capability to play duels that look almost as real as the films, and having properly scaled models, especially of the major players, would go a long way to meeting that goal.
I totally understand the motivation for making the model scaling work and I agree that it would be cool. However, I just don't currently have the motivation to impliment something like that. Ideally, if I had more of a team, I could religate some of the more tedious/simplier tasks to the more junior staff members.

Is there any way you could set the next release of OJP E to automatically bypass the opening animations for JA? This would speed up our ability to join/start a game, and it would thus gives us more time to test the game.
I imagine that the Q3 engine already has a command line argument that does it but I don't know what it is. However you could try this mini-mod out to see if it works. http://jediknight2.filefront.com/file/No_Intro_Video;24546

Also, is there a way to enable the more realistic model shading we can use/see in the JA singleplayer game? And is there a way to enable the use of the more 3D looking Force Push/Pull effects?
The volumetric shading is one of the options in the shadows video option. And what do you mean by more 3D looking Push/Pull effects? You mean that foggy cloud stuff?

razorace
02-20-2006, 06:54 AM
As for the electrostaff, my debugger is telling me that the crash is occurring somewhere in the actual game engine. As such, it's probably related to something that's different/weird with the electrostaffs and not really something that I can fix. You gotta use third party mods at your own risk. :) Sorry!

Tapela
02-20-2006, 01:29 PM
I have none of these problems you're experiancing Kyle. Probably because I did not bother with the JA+ PK3 files because I did not have JA+ nor was I interested in it at the moment. I just put the Newblades4.pk3 and ONLY that in the base folder and it works fine with everything, including rbg (which is the same except for maybe the core of the blade when swung). If you put the JA+ stuff in I could see how it is conflicting with OJP. You may wanna try only using NewBlades4.pk3.

So as far as I know thats the only thing it could be unless its something else you might have in your base conflicting with them. For me the effects mod works fine and has zero problems.

Lathain Valtiel
02-20-2006, 02:45 PM
NewBladesV4 is incompatible with OJP in the first place unless I'm not being told something... It has its own client DLL.

Tapela
02-20-2006, 02:50 PM
Installation: - Put the file: "NewBladesV4.pk3" in your base directory. If you want to have the Episode 2 blue blade, put the file: "V3 Blue.pk3" in your base folder.

JA+ Installation: - Put the files: "V4Blades for JA+&ForceMod3.pk3" and "cgamex86.dll" located in the folder "for JA+" in your JA+ folder. If you want to have the Episode 2 blue blade, put the file: "V3 Blue for JA+.pk3" in your JA+ folder.


Its OPTIONAL. You do not mess with the .dll or anything in the JA+ Installation folder, that is for JA+. Use the base JKA pk3 and it works fine. Guys how is this a problem? I don't understand how this could get by anyone or how it would be difficult to understand.. In any case the mod works fine for me because I only put the NewBladesV4.pk3 into my base folder.

Lathain Valtiel
02-20-2006, 02:55 PM
...Open the NewBladesV4.pk3.

You'll notice that, surprise, inside of it is a dll file labeled cgamex86.dll!

Clearly your dll is getting overwritten and you have around half the mod.

Tapela
02-20-2006, 03:38 PM
I see, well maybe OJP is overwriting it when I run the .bat, otherwise I really don't have anything else that would change anything. When I used Newbladesv4.pk3 the only thing I noticed different was the saber blade effects, and even so RBG sabers werent really effected at all.


*Edit* Actually I'm wrong it changes alot of sounds, and I think the clash effects too. Still so far no animation differences or weird problems like kyle had.

Lathain Valtiel
02-20-2006, 03:50 PM
Correct, base is loaded first, then OJP basic.

If you want NewBlades to work properly in OJP, you have to ask Razor to put it SFX Effects into his code. Which I don't really like myself...

JRHockney*
02-20-2006, 03:55 PM
JRHockney,

I'm happy that you're enjoying the "Relatively Perfect Sabers" mod that I linked to. I think the glows look very appealing, however I do have some issues with them:

1. It has a rather prominent "ghost center line". Other saber mods have been able to reduce this very thin feathery center line that runs out of the center of the saber's tip.

2. In my opinion, its saber trails are too short. They need to be lengthened by 25-35%.

1. I didn't even notice it, but what I do like is the overall brightness of this mod. I actually modified the glow on one of my sabers so that it is even brighter. Over all I do like the episode 3 v4 mod brightness too.

2. This I don't agree with at all. Watch episode 3 an you'll se that there are there are hardly any saber trails at all except for when they swing fast. In fact, I modified the saber trails on this so that they are EVEN SHORTER! lol. This way, the saber trails are movie accurate for the normal swings and have a longer trail for the power fakes (as it should be), thus making it more movie accurate over all. The only downside is the fact that the individual animations can be seen more now. I made the glow trail a little longer to hide this more, but they are still a little visible (which is fine by me). It does kind of suffer at lower FPS though. I just wish there were more animation frames to begin with.

Tapela
02-20-2006, 04:42 PM
So I tried the Saberbladesv4 without OJP Enhanced and there are differences, I guess I didn't have the full mod running like Lathain said. Most noticable I guess is the actual saber itself, the glow is different than it is in OJP Enhanced also the swing trail is completely different and looks exactly like the movies in length (not short at all). The feature I liked the most is that it applies the yellow "Clash" flare thats also in OJP Enhanced for body hits, which I pretty much thought was an OJP feature :X.

Well I feel pretty stupid now but I think I'm going to keep using the pk3 because of the sounds and other stuff. Though notably Razoraces effects for the saber clashes/blocks are better and brighter but the sound and graphic effect when the saber actually hits someone in base JKA is so ugly and annoying so I prefer the prequel sounds in this mod. It also changed the force push, speed, and i think grip sounds. Push being from episode 1. So I'm sorry for suggesting the mod while not knowing much about it at all :(.

razorace
02-22-2006, 03:37 AM
Kyle, I played around with powerduel a bit today and I noticed that you were on the money about the players not rotating correctly. I spent a decent amount of time debugging it and fixed the problem I honestly have no idea if the TABBots broke it or if it was a basejka bug, but I got it done. :)

Kyle Kelasheski
02-22-2006, 09:29 PM
Razorace,

I'm happy that my observation regarding the "single player not rotating into the match" bug was accurate. For that matter, I hope that all of my observations are accurate! :nut:

Another potential bug: I noticed that about half the time the Force Pull sound effect is not played when a lightsaber is called back to the player's hand. This has been tricky for me to nail down, as I sometimes switch between different Force Powers setups. It seems like when this bug occurs is when I have no points invested in the Force Pull power. The saber still returns to me because that feature is built into saber throw, it just won't play the Force Pull sound effect when it returns. If points have been invested into Force Pull, then said sound effect will play when the saber is called back to me. Again, sometimes this happens, and sometimes it doesn't. I'll keep an eye on it to see if I can figure out what exactly is causing the bug.

I'm VERY sorry to hear that my observation/educated guess as to why the electrostaffs weren't working was correct. Razorace, or anyone else for that matter; is there a quick solution to this scenario? Can I use a text editor to alter a file in the electrostaff's .pk3 that will make it behave and use the values that a typical saberstaff does? I'm eager to try and correct this file myself for later release if someone's willing to give me some guidance regarding what it is I need to do.





JRHockney,

I'm impressed that you're playing around with the saber effects, and I'm looking forward to trying out whatever it is you come up with. I recently watched RotS again, and my assessment of the lengths of the average lightsaber swing is different from yours. As an example of what I mean, take a look at the scene where Obi-Wan very casually severs off the Magna Droid's head that's partially trapped underneath the heavy piece of machinery that Obi-Wan has dropped on its body (this is the scene shortly after he drops down from the ceiling strut to confront Grievous). That very "lazy" and slow swing's trail is significantly longer than the ones found in the "Relatively Perfect Sabers" mod. Indeed, in my opinion, the majority of swings, including the slow ones, are to one degree or another longer than what is found in the RPS mod.

I still feel that the NewBladesV4's effects are just about as perfect as one can get, barring the stance/no 1st person view/no RGB blade bugs it has when the mod is installed in the ojpenhanced directory. After reading the last several replies, I decided to try this mod out by installing it into the "base" directory, and lo and behold all of these problems went away for me. So, I now have a basic question regarding the "bugs disappear if in the 'base' directory" scenario: is it truly bug/error free if the mod is installed in the base folder? I guess that I'm just concerned that it can still mess up the things we can't see clearly on screen, such as altering values that are othewise set by OJP E's coding. If so, then I'll continue using it, if not, well I'm off to trying once again to find the perfect lightsaber graphics.

If values are being messed with, are there certain files within its .pk3 that I can delete/alter to make it so there aren't any conflicts?

Another point regarding the RPS mod is that its trails are SO short that it's usually only the ends of the sabers that actually produce a saber trail. It's pretty common to see to see "hooked" saber trails rather than trails that are as wide as the blade is long.


Before I go, I hope that all of you give my now updated sound effects mod a try. It can be found at: http://www.lucasforums.com/showpost.php?p=2027976&postcount=3 .


Until next time...

Yours!

Kyle
Feb. 22, 2006

:nod:

.

Lathain Valtiel
02-23-2006, 02:22 AM
The bot's electrostaff actually does 50% more damage than a normal saber, can chain up to 9 times, gets bonuses to locking, parrying, and disarming, it can't be knocked out of the user's hand... etc etc etc. Its animations are also 10% faster. Jesus Christ.

I'm so disgusted I question the wisdom of fixing this.

Second: NO to model scaling. If you ever played ForceMod II, you would see why it was THE most unbalanced thing EVER next to spawning with a rocket launcher. Especially if you picked a small fry.

JRHockney*
02-23-2006, 02:47 AM
Does any one have any idea how to make the sabers have the massive glow that the MB2 sabers have and make it work with OJP Enhanced? No matter what I do, I can get the glow that big.

razorace
02-23-2006, 03:41 AM
I'm eager to try and correct this file myself for later release if someone's willing to give me some guidance regarding what it is I need to do.
Go ahead and give that a shot. It's a engine bug so it could be a variety of things that are causing the crash. However, since the crash occurs on player death it's probably something that happens when you kill someone. Maybe the body hit effect?

As for the Force Pull noise when pulling back the saber, it shouldn't be possible to not hear the sound since it's always played. The only way I can see it not working if something is preventing the sound from playing on the body sound channel of that player.

Tapela
02-23-2006, 05:20 AM
As far as I know, installing the NewBlades v4 mod in base directory hasnt conflicted with OJP in anyway. It is however altered when OJP runs and overwrites a few things like saber trail sizes, and how the glow is rendered. Regardless of this the blades still look very nice, if not better (I prefer the way OJP made them when i use the mod in base).

As far as I can tell from listening to the sounds and comparing them to base jka sounds/ojp sounds the NewBladesv4 pk3 edited push, almost all saber sounds, pull, speed, jumping (i guess it changed it to a cloth or boots thud). One thing that I really liked is that it changed the saberhit graphics to the yellow clash and it changed the sounds so its more of a "pop" if that makes any sense. Its more like in the newer movies were it made a flash and had a pop sound, i love the effect and its what probably makes me keep the mod most.

JRHockney*
02-23-2006, 06:50 PM
As far as I know, installing the NewBlades v4 mod in base directory hasnt conflicted with OJP in anyway. It is however altered when OJP runs and overwrites a few things like saber trail sizes, and how the glow is rendered. Regardless of this the blades still look very nice, if not better (I prefer the way OJP made them when i use the mod in base).

As far as I can tell from listening to the sounds and comparing them to base jka sounds/ojp sounds the NewBladesv4 pk3 edited push, almost all saber sounds, pull, speed, jumping (i guess it changed it to a cloth or boots thud). One thing that I really liked is that it changed the saberhit graphics to the yellow clash and it changed the sounds so its more of a "pop" if that makes any sense. Its more like in the newer movies were it made a flash and had a pop sound, i love the effect and its what probably makes me keep the mod most.

Those sounds are from the saberclashmod. Their Ok, but their are better saber sound mods available in my opinion, like the sounds with moviestances2.0 and clouds sounds. I forget which sound it is, but there was one sound in the saberclashmod that was really annoying to me. Once I deleted that sound, it made playing with it alot better.

Kyle Kelasheski
02-24-2006, 02:38 PM
Three bugs to report:

1.I have finally pinned down one event that's part of the whole "thrown saber turns red" bug. You'll need TWO .pk3s to replicate exactly what happened for me. Both links to the downloads can be found here: http://pcgamemods.com/mod/16158.html On this map, whenever I throw my saber and it hits the underside of a bridge, my saber sticks there and turns red.

2. In FFA, whenever I exit a match the player/bot count automatically goes up by one. I wonder if this is related in any way to the "kill limit goes up by 1" bug I reported earlier.

3. Maps do not automatically rotate between matches. Is this because I frequently have Kill Limits set to 0 for most of the game types I play?


Yours,

Kyle
Feb. 24, 2006

:)

.

Lathain Valtiel
02-24-2006, 02:54 PM
It probably has sometghing to do with shaders... Or at least I wouldn't be surprised.

razorace
02-24-2006, 03:04 PM
1. Um, yeah. I can't fix bugs caused by the crazy @$$ stuff that other moders dump in their asset files. Baring an actual problem with the code in reference to said mod, I can't be responsible for PPP in other mods. If you want to fix it on your own, just dig around in those .pk3s and look for stuff that might conflict with OJP.

2. Nope, it's just that spectating humans don't count towards the bot limit. As per requested by Kurgan.

3. Set the g_autoMapCycle to 1.

Kyle Kelasheski
02-28-2006, 01:29 AM
Razorace and Lathain,

Thank you for your replies concerning the above "3 bugs" report.



Here’s my assessment of v. 8 of OJP E:

1. The bot matches are lasting significantly longer, and that's a good thing. It means that they're more formidable than before.

2. For some reason, a number of the saber trails are looking much longer than they did in the last build. I don't know if I'm seeing things or not, but I certainly can't recall seeing swings that looked like these: (http://img63.imageshack.us/my.php?image=v8sabertrailstoolong2examples3.jpg) They almost look like portions of animations taken from katas. Please note that in my Base directory I have installed the "NewBladesV4" saber mod, and it is in use in the above images. Thanks to JRHockney*’s GREAT introductory manual (found here: http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=161367 ) I now know that these super long saber trails are intentional. Please shorten these greatly extended and jagged-arced saber trails, as they look very different from anything else we've seen in any of the films. Perhaps a solid balance could be achieved with conveying information to the players by universally shortening ALL of the saber trails by 65-70%, or at the very least 50%. This way, the length of the saber trails are still conveying important data to the players, while also simultaneously looking much more like the films. See point 10 for me details.

3. I liked how my saber was batted out of my hand when I was knocked back. That's a very nice and believable touch. What I also liked is that I had to make a conscious decision to reactivate my saber blade after it had returned from my hand. I feel that this design decision should be used every time the saber is called back to the player. Right now, if the saber is Force thrown, it will automatically turn back on once it returns to the player's hands. If possible, [I]disable the automatic turn ons when the saber returns to the player's hands at the end of saber throw. To me, this extra step makes the event more immersive. After all, why would the blade be turned on automatically for this one Force power? Isn't it enough for this power to send the saber great distances towards a target and then to call it back? This could also add an extra level of tactics to the game. Someone who's badly wounded, hiding in the shadows, could try to get some sneak attacks in by using saber throw, and at the same time maintain some secrecy when the blade returns to his/her hand, and then does NOT ignite. Nothing gives one's position away more quickly than a loudly igniting and glowing object! :) This tactic would also be more successful if the strange yellow glow was disabled for the returning saber hilt. Why does it glow yellow anyway?

4. Exhaustion Effects on the Speed of Staggers and the Length of Saber Trails: Why do staggers take place so slowly? Shouldn't the staggering player get knocked into this position quickly and then slowly try to recover his wits and sense of gravity from the powerful blow? Also, another potentially great indicator of exhaustion could be achieved by linking together the length of one's saber trail to how tired the swinger is. The more tired they are, the slower they swing, and the slower the swing, the shorter the trail. So, if we were to have a fresh duelist standing beside a tired one, and they both executed the same swing, they'd still look different. The tired duelist would have a slower saber swing and thus his/her saber would produce a shorter trail. This would be a great tool for assessing the state of an opponent or ally.

5. Several times I couldn't easily leap feet first into my opponent after he/she knocked me down to the ground. Why is this feature so different from the last release? What makes this so glaring to me is that it seems that the bots are still operating without seemingly having to endure the same limitations. Time and again, I’ve seen them leap up at me from the ground within what seems like a 60 degree arc, while I’m lucky to respond in kind within a much more limited 15 degree arc.

6. If the player’s view is 3rd. person and a saberlock occurs, automatically engage a “4th. person view” ala the Lord of the Rings games. This way we get a clear and exciting view of the struggle instead of having our head/shoulders blocking everything. Check out this mod to more clearly understand what I’m mentioning here: http://pcgamemods.com/mod/15863.html Also take a look at this saberlock screenshot here: [img=http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/8783/saberlock5superb9of.th.jpg] (http://img156.imageshack.us/my.php?image=saberlock5superb9of.jpg) The saberlock image is on an exciting angle that emulates what I mean by the “4th person view.” We can clearly see what’s going on in such a view.

7. Are saber lockups influenced by the number that is entered for its cvar? Should I simply enter 0 for off or 1 for on? Does entering a number higher than 1 influence how saberlocks work in OJP E?

8. The animations look like they could use some speeding up, especially for Attack Fakes.

9. Reduce the time that is necessary to reset stances. This may be linked to point #8. Too often characters walk around with their saber temporarily “frozen” in an awkward looking position, as can be seen in this screenshot of Dooku’s arthritic shoulder suddenly seizing up: [img=http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/976/15yj2.th.jpg] (http://img164.imageshack.us/my.php?image=15yj2.jpg)

10. Attack Fakes produce saber trails that are far too long, and look completely uncinematic. In fact, they’re so long that instead of us seeing a smooth circular arc we see a rather sharply angled one. If the lengths of the saber trails were reduced by at least 50% (and I feel that 65% would be an even better figure to try) then we wouldn’t have to see the “angled arcs,” the lightsabers would look a lot more like the ones we’ve seen in the films. In fact I strongly advocate the reduction of ALL the saber trail lengths. If the trail lengths were all reduced by the same percentage, then we’d still have the valuable visual cue that an Attack Fake was being performed, because it would STILL be the longest trail that we’d see. I also highly advocate making the cores of the sabers an opaque white/near white hue, and I also advise that the amount of feathering being produced by the saber’s trails be greatly reduced, if not altogether eliminated as I can’t ever recall seeing a lightsaber arc in the film who’s glowing halo had a feathery appearance to it. As it stands right now, the saber trails are REALLY pulling me out of a sense of immersion, as they’re just visually very foreign to what we’ve seen in the films. The following collage of two screenshots illustrates my points: [img=http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/2386/v8sabertrailstoolong2examples5.th.jpg] (http://img156.imageshack.us/my.php?image=v8sabertrailstoolong2examples5.jpg)


11. Bots should start walking within at least 4 m. of any potential lightsaber wielding opponent. I seem to remember a much earlier build of OJP E that had the bots walking almost all the time, which was excessive because it took forever to close with them. However, if they could be adjusted to start walking at 4-6 m., that would create a much more believable scenario, and would also serve them from wearing themselves out too quickly.

12. Bots should quickly charge unbalanced/knocked down opponents so that they take advantage of their opponents’ drop in defenses.

13. Bots should use the new saber stances.

14. Bots should use the fullest range of their Force powers possible in matches where Force powers are allowed.

15. Force Push should work more like what we’ve seen in the films. Most of the time when it’s effective it solely pushes the target back, hopefully off of a ledge. However, Force Push in the films is a pretty debilitating attack. The target actually gets blown back and is knocked down to the ground, suffering what looks to be like some damage, or at least a nominal degree of being stunned.

16. I like how saber throw operates mechanically, but I’m not convinced by its visuals. In my mind, if a lightsaber hits you then it should almost always result in a limb decapitation, a feature that would terribly unbalance saber throw. A more convincing illusion would be to ALWAYS have the target at least partially “dodge” the thrown lightsaber that hits them. This way visually it looks like, and sensibly registers in the viewer’s mind as a thrown saber that only partially strikes its target and thus we have the justification as to why the struck area isn’t lopped off. When the target has truly depleted all of its defensive energies, then a thrown saber WOULD automatically decapitate the area that is struck.

17. Mind Trick and Force Sense could be adjusted to be much more valuable in acquiring information, rather than being a means to be “stealthy” when attacking. For example, if all Force power visual effects were deactivated, then it would become VERY valuable to perform Force Sense on the opponent to collect information on what powers he/she is currently running. The more powerful this ability is, the greater range at which one can collect this data, and at its maximum setting, we’d actually be privy to seeing a small countdown clock that indicates precisely when each power is going to shut off, and what the target’s Force power meter is at. This could be linked to seeing other attributes as well, such as how much physical energy the target still has left for defensive purposes.

Mind Trick would at the very least make its user invisible and a range of false attribute readings would be broadcast. The readings would be totally random, and would either broadcast that the user has little resources left, or that the user was fully charged for battle. At medium strength it would also produce an invisible doppelganger neighbor of its user that would replicate all of its user behaviors. The doppelganger would produce noises appropriate to its actions, so that one could hear it running and harmlessly swinging its illusionary lightsaber (this emulates Ben’s use of the Force on the Death Star to produce a false sound that coaxed the storm troopers to abandon their posts), and it too would broadcast false attribute readings that may be different from the readings its master is broadcasting. Creating confusion is the name of the game with this power. At its most powerful setting, two doppelgangers would be generated, with their positioning around the real Force User being randomly generated, and they could be given very simple orders to perform, such as “Wait here, Attack target, Return to formation,” etc., etc. The only way to completely defeat Mind Trick is to have a more powerful Force Sense rating. A rating of equal value would only reveal HALF of the misinformation that is being broadcast by the Mind Trick user.


18. After a lot of reflection, I am now convinced that stances should be linked to one’s ability to use the Force and/or melee attacks. Here’s what I mean:

A. In all of the films, when the Jedi really try to open up a can of Force whoopass, they SHUTOFF their lightsabers, and use BOTH hands so that they can better manipulate the Force. Obviously this leaves them at a great disadvantage to lightsaber attacks, but that’s the drawback to trying to open up a can of Force Whoopass.

B. Whenever the Force is used while a lightsaber is on, the Force manipulator is holding his lightsaber with only ONE hand. The freed up hand is used for Force conjuring, such as when Dooku chokes Obi-Wan and tosses him across the observation deck in Ep. 3.

C. A duelist holding his/her saber with one hand also has access to performing grappling moves with his/her free hand. This is extensively seen in Ep. 3, especially when Anakin grabs Dooku’s wrists and sets them up for the big decapitation.

D. A duelist having both hands on the lightsaber is able to evoke special protections against Force attacks, such as Obi-Wan’s and Mace’s absorbing/deflection of Dooku’s/Sidious’ attacks. They are not, however, able to use the Force in an offensive manner.


Considering points A.-D., the one handed styles that are available could be made to be actually valuable. Being completely unarmed also has its advantages/disadvantages, and all such points neatly fall in line with what we’ve seen in the films.


And I have one more question: how are Attack Fakes "fakes?" From what I've been able to determine, the saber's movement is not misleading. It's going precisely where the player wants it to go, and it's a very powerful means at directly engaging the enemy. I can usually drop a bot using just Attack Fakes within 3-5 swings.


That’s it for now. Time for bed. Good night!

Yours,
Kyle
Feb. 28, 2006

: )

.

Tapela
02-28-2006, 02:47 AM
I'm surprised you've not asked Razorace to make the hilts appear on the waists of the player models when deactivated :X. Actually now that I think about it I wonder if they appear on the model when you go to fists like the guns do.

Lathain Valtiel
02-28-2006, 04:15 AM
They do.

They're just strapped to the front of the legs unless you use staff, which is strapped to the back.

razorace
02-28-2006, 04:31 AM
Oh, they do. It's just hard to see them from the thirdperson view.

Replies to kyle's lastest list:

2. Mmmm, I might shrink the saber trail in the future. I currently like it but it might need to be tweaked if it's an issue for more users.

3. That's an interesting idea. I'll put that on my to-do list. As for the yellow glow, only the saber's owner sees the yellow glow. It's so that you can locate your saber quickly.

4. Well, the reason why it takes so long because I needed to make the vulnerability last long enough for people to be able to take advantage of it. The saber trail->fatigue is interesting but I'm not sure that I'd want that change to be gradual. I'd probably make it just be based on their fatigue status.

5. I rewrote the knockdown system to allow for forward knockdowns like in SP. The way the ported code works, it appears to require you to "move it or lose it" in terms of quick getups. If you don't, it makes you get up the slow way.

6. Good idea, but it's purely cosmetic. I might do that later. :)

7. Saber lock mechanics are the same as in basejka. Just check the cvar docs for details.

8. hmmm, for a particular stance or just the animations in general? If it's just the animations in general use the g_saberanimspeed cvar and let me know which setting you like.

9. It looks like you're referring to the slow bounces. That's intentional. Your player gets temp stunned instead of suffering a mishap at high DP/FP levels. I also noticed that there was a bug in the slow bounce code that was causing slow returns/bounces in the wrong situations. That has been fixed.

10. You're also using a third party saber blade mod. I think it normally looks better with the basejka blades.

11. Good idea. However, this will require more extensive enemy scanning than what is currently being used (since your target might not be the dude holding a lightsaber).

12. They don't now?

13. Yeah, I've been wanting to do that. However, it's not something that's easy to do. I'm still thinking about it.

14. See other thread on bot force powers.

15. Agreed. However, I haven't figured out a way to do this without unbalancing things. My guess is that a jedi shouldn't be affected by force push at all unless they're in a saber stun or the attacker is at a much higher force level.

16. Agreed. It should be doing that now. I honestly haven't testing it much so this might have to be messed with.

17. Interesting, but that would take a lot of work. Mind trick and Force sense are going to be tough to retool. :)

18. Actually Obi-Wan blocked Dooku's lightning with one hand on the saber. Anyway, it's an interesting idea but I don't think restricting the force powers to one handed styles would be fair. Realistically, it doesn't take that long to just take one hand off the saber. Plus, from what we've seen in the movies, we really don't know if using both hands is more powerful or not since the characters normally turn the blade off for another reason. Maybe using the force while holding a lit saber should be less powerful/take more FP so that the player can still saber block?

19. Attack fakes are changing the direction from which you're going to attack. you're winding up for one direction and then suddenly transition into another direction to attack. It's more visible the larger the different in direction is.

Kyle Kelasheski
02-28-2006, 01:36 PM
Razorace,

I’ve responded to your reply by quoting your points and then following up with more of my feedback by placing it after an arrow that looks like this: <----


2. Mmmm, I might shrink the saber trail in the future. I currently like it but it might need to be tweaked if it's an issue for more users.<-----Maybe supply us with a cvar that allows us to select a range of saber trail length options, from “Very short, Movie lengths, Long,” and “Very Long?”

4. Well, the reason why it takes so long because I needed to make the vulnerability last long enough for people to be able to take advantage of it. The saber trail->fatigue is interesting but I'm not sure that I'd want that change to be gradual. I'd probably make it just be based on their fatigue status.<----That sounds like an elegant and an easier way to approach this feature!

5. I rewrote the knockdown system to allow for forward knockdowns like in SP. The way the ported code works, it appears to require you to "move it or lose it" in terms of quick getups. If you don't, it makes you get up the slow way.<----So that means that if I’m going to do a “leap up from a knockdown” I have to do so immediately or else I’m stuck with slowly getting up from my knocked down position?

8. hmmm, for a particular stance or just the animations in general? If it's just the animations in general use the g_saberanimspeed cvar and let me know which setting you like…and…
9. It looks like you're referring to the slow bounces. That's intentional. Your player gets temp stunned instead of suffering a mishap at high DP/FP levels. I also noticed that there was a bug in the slow bounce code that was causing slow returns/bounces in the wrong situations. That has been fixed.<----I’ll just wait for the next release then to see how the animations are really intended to work. In general, most of the animations just seem slower to me than the last build. Perhaps this is partially due to the extremely long saber trails we see whenever an Attack Fake is made; the saber trails persist so long that it misleadingly contributes to the sensation that it’s taking a long time for a swing to be executed from its starting to finishing points. If this is the case (and I do believe that it’s playing some role in contributing towards my observations) then perhaps it’s another good reason to reduce the lengths of the saber trails.

10. You're also using a third party saber blade mod. I think it normally looks better with the basejka blades.<----Then I’ll try the mod without the third party saber mod. I hope it works, since in the last build of OJP E, this saber mod looked beautifully accurate to the films’ effects.

12. They don't now?<----I can’t recall ever seeing a bot charge a stunned enemy. It would be helpful for someone else to post their observations regarding this behavior that’s either absent or being missed by me.

15. Agreed. However, I haven't figured out a way to do this without unbalancing things. My guess is that a jedi shouldn't be affected by force push at all unless they're in a saber stun or the attacker is at a much higher force level.<----This is a solid and believable design decision of yours.

18. …Maybe using the force while holding a lit saber should be less powerful/take more FP so that the player can still saber block?<----Again, another sound approach towards using Force powers in consideration of saber usage.

19. Attack fakes are changing the direction from which you're going to attack. you're winding up for one direction and then suddenly transition into another direction to attack. It's more visible the larger the different in direction is.<----I need to get online to get a better feel for this, because in my mind having the fake so strongly pointed out by a super long saber trail that’s pointing to the ACTUAL direction of attack makes it seem like it’d be easier to avoid falling for the fake. As it stands right now, the bots are really lousy to responding to this kind of attack, and they’re pretty lousy at delivering it. I have yet to be consistently “fooled” by their Attack Fakes because I’m reading their super long saber trails. It might also be due to the fact that they really don’t change the direction of their actual saber attacks all that much so it might be because the course of their saber is mostly predictable and I’m automatically responding in the direction towards where the attack is being really delivered. There are a lot of variables involved in assessing this, so it’s tricky to judge exactly what’s going on and why. So, if the goal of the Attack Fake is to mislead the opponent into misdirecting their parry so that the actual attack can hit while their saber is in the wrong position then I’m not really seeing it play out that way against bots.

Your detailed response has really filled in a lot of gray areas for me. Thanks for taking the time to being so thorough in your responses.

Yours,

Kyle
Feb. 28, 2006

:)

.

JRHockney*
02-28-2006, 03:37 PM
Kyle, If you P.M. me your email address I'll send you a copy of the saber trail mod I constructed made specifically for OJP Enhanced. It shortens the trail length to a much more movie realistic length and still keps the regular trials decent. The trail "glow" might be a little longer than you like (because I'm sure you just want the core to blur) but if it wasnt longer, the animations won't blend together as well with the changes. Let me know.

razorace
02-28-2006, 06:17 PM
Kyle, please use actual quote tags when quoting other people's text. The arrow method you used is hard on the eyes.

2. I don't see a need for a dedicated cvar when a player can changes the trails by using saber mods.

4. Ok, added. We'll see how it works out. :)

5. Right something like that. I was missing the define for one critical value that is used to determine when a player can get up from a knockdown. This value might need to be tweaked a bit. The rest of the code is pretty straight from SP.

9. I haven't changed the animation speeds so I suspect it's an optical illusion. However, since you asked, I've shorted the saber trail lengths for attack fakes. Let me know if it looks better to you after the next release.

12. Bots should be always trying to get as close as possible to saber swing you if they're trying to use a saber in the first place. I just realized that they don't technically attempt to do a special downward attack to kill you so that might need to be fixed in the future.

19. The attack fakes aren't all that great vs the TABBots since they parry randomly instead of realistically like a human player would.

Kyle Kelasheski
03-01-2006, 02:21 AM
Razorace,

RE point 2: I guess my main concern is that different saber mods do different things, and placing them in the wrong directory can cause a good deal of havoc on game performance and confusion. If several variants were supplied via cvar, then odds are all of these potential negative outcomes could be altogether avoided. This leads to happier players, and happier players means more people playing the mod. At least that's what I hope it means.
; )

RE point 4: I am, of course, very eager to see how the "saber trail lengths reflect fatigue level" works out. I hope that it's a feature that the community members appreciate and enjoy!

RE point 9: "Shorter saber trails in the next release?" Yay! :lips1: This is one new visual feature I can NOT wait to see in action! Thank you for putting work into it and thus allowing us to give it a try!

RE point 12: If you're going to incorporate a downward attack on knocked down opponents by the bots, is it possible to replace the downward stab with a SWEEP of the floor with the lightsaber's tip? As I mentioned earlier, I believe that it's a far more believable action to see put into use.

RE point 19: Is it possible to code the bots so that they can look for and react to the direction of an incoming saber swing? I couldn't imagine how cool it would be to conduct a TFFA or FFA with a slew of saber users smartly reacting to their opponents' attacks! DROOL!

Razorace, I really commend everything that you're putting into this modding endeavor. In my opinion, the overhaul of Raven's crappy saber system is so complete that I feel it'd be more accurate to say that this mod is actually a total conversion . In my opinion, the number of players that this mod is going to totally convert to using the OJP E system is going to be sizeable. And "Yes," the use of the bad pun was intentional. One person's definition of "bad" is another person's definition of "creative."

I vote for the latter.

Good night!

Kyle
March 1, 2006

:)

.

razorace
03-01-2006, 04:40 AM
2. I think it's outside the mod's madate to account for human error on the part of the users. We can try to make things better, but there's a little to what I can do without it just being annoying for me.

12. At the moment I have no plans for adding an additional down attack to the moves list. However, if I decide to do one in the future, I'll try to make one like you suggested.

19. It's possible, but it really comes down to CPU usage and being able to come up with an algorithm that can handle such behavior, which is tough to do for something like you suggested. Unfortunately, predicting saber movement/positioning is tuff. I think I've finally come up with one that works (which is used for the bound box blocking) but I'm not sure how I could use it to make the bots react more intelligently around sabers.

And thank you. :)

Kyle Kelasheski
03-02-2006, 12:20 AM
Razorace,

Here's some more feedback. :)


Bugs

I. The rocket launcher's rocket isn't visible midair. All I see are the rocket's model's X, Y, and Z axis lines. I'd also consider toning down a bit the amount of shrapnel that's generated by the rocket's detonation.


Suggestions
I. Remove the "shield hit" visual effect. This would immediately make having Force Sense a real bonus, as one could see whether or not an individual has any shield energy left, and it would also simultaneously make the game look more cinematic, as the only time I can think of seeing a shield bubble forming in any of the films is when a droideka is attacked. If the shield effect must be kept, then I advocate making it look very similar to the kind of shield bubble the droideka produces, as it could then be justified that portable shields are based on droideka technologies. Or one could do what ForceMod did, allow an option to have shields visible/invisible.

II. I feel that there should be a greater penalty for those who are either recovering their battle stance and/or lightsaber. Too often I see individauls recover their hilts and they can then immediately use it without suffering any kind of performance penalty. It seems to me that it makes more sense that it would take half a second for a duelist to get a sound grip on his saber hilt once it's been recovered. If the duelist is attacked before this half a second has elapsed, then the duelist is unable to defend himself with his lightsaber because it has yet to be readied. The same goes for getting up from knockdowns.



New Force Powers

I. Force Jump-Recovery from Kicks:
After watching my newly purchased Revenge of the Sith DVD for what must be the fifth time in two weeks (my baby girl is currently very sick with RSV, a severe bronchial infection; about the only way she can nap is if she's on top of my chest, so I pass some of that time watching TV) I noticed a combat move that I thought was pretty sharp and smart. After being kicked by Vader on Mustafar's landing pad, in mid-knockback, Obi-Wan did a "Force-jump" to spin his way out of the nastier consequences of crashing to the landing pad's hard deck, and instead he landed several meters away on his feet, facing his former brother in arms. Perhaps the player/bot would have a fraction of a second to try and recover in this fashion from a kick. In my opinion, this option should only be offered while the kicked individual has a relatively high amount of defensive and Force energy left, and it would be moderately expensive move to make. I wouldn't charge too high a price for it, because even in the best of circumstances, timing is everyting.

II. Contest of Force Push-Lockups:
This is a feature that I'm confident would blow away players' minds. If two opponents utilize their Push powers against each other at/nearly at the same moment, then a "Contest of Force Push-Lockups" occur. We saw this event occur when Obi-Wan and Vader were dueling each other inside a Mustafarian control room. This works very much like saberlocks do. When a Push-Lockup occurs, for several seconds, the opponents have to try and outpace the other opponent's efforts to out-Push their enemy. The individual who hits his/her mouspad's primary attack button the most will win the contest and send their enemy flying a great distance and deliver enough physical damage to stun them for 5-7 seconds. A tied outcome would send both opponents flying in opposite directions, delivering only a small degree of physical harm, but both indivduals would suffer from being stunned for a short period of time. The more points invested in Push, the farther/more damaged/longer stunned the loser of the contest will be. Seeing this contest from a 4th. person view would be a very exciting experience.

III. Force Batter:
This would be a Dark Side power, and it would reproduce what we've seen Vader do in the Original Trilogy. The user of this power would pick up numerous small objects and pieces of debris and hurl them at his/her target, causing them to expend defensive energy/physical health. Dark Forces II, Jedi Knight had a great version of this power, and I've always missed it in Raven's Jedi series. It would be quite the feat if this power returned.

That's it for now. I'll be looking forward to the responses to these ideas.

Yours,

Kyle
March 2, 2006

:)

.

razorace
03-02-2006, 02:32 AM
The rocket issue has got to be something with a conflicting mod or something since I haven't touched the rocket models.

Suggestions
I. Remove the "shield hit" visual effect.
I agree that it's not very realistic. However, I'm not sure that if we should completely remove the effect or not. If we remove the effect, we're also probably going to have to remove the shield points as well.

II. I feel that there should be a greater penalty for those who are either recovering their battle stance and/or lightsaber. Too often I see individauls recover their hilts and they can then immediately use it without suffering any kind of performance penalty. It seems to me that it makes more sense that it would take half a second for a duelist to get a sound grip on his saber hilt once it's been recovered. If the duelist is attacked before this half a second has elapsed, then the duelist is unable to defend himself with his lightsaber because it has yet to be readied. The same goes for getting up from knockdowns.
Well, the movies seem to indicate that jedi have no problem using their sabers immediately after recovering them. Changing that would lessen the effect of a last minute retrieve by a player. Plus, I think players without sabers or that have been knockdowned have it hard enough as is. Making it possible to have multiple casading knockdowns/disarms wouldn't seem fair.

New Force Powers
I. Force Jump-Recovery from Kicks:
We've already thought of that. I just haven't implimented it yet. :)

II. Contest of Force Push-Lockups:
III. Force Batter:
There's a lot of technical issues involved in adding competely new and wildly different force powers like that. Ideally, I'd have the time and resources to impliment every new idea, but more are simply more practical than others. These are good ideas, they'd just be really hard to do.

razorace
03-02-2006, 10:04 PM
It just occurred to me that there might be a problem with the having the saber not auto activate when it returns to a player's hand. I think that some players might find that to be TOO realistic and annoying. I think I might. What do you guys think?

Tapela
03-02-2006, 11:08 PM
I would not like this at all for it is truely useless. Might as well give us control over finger movements on the model somehow as that is more realistic. Jedi always ignite their sabers as soon as they retrieve them, why does this need to be changed? If you get disarmed against a dual saberist already its hard to recover without losing dp especially depending on enviroment, all it would do is insure these mishaps meant the end of you.

JRHockney*
03-02-2006, 11:29 PM
It just occurred to me that there might be a problem with the having the saber not auto activate when it returns to a player's hand. I think that some players might find that to be TOO realistic and annoying. I think I might. What do you guys think?

Yeah, I think that would be more frustrating than anything.

Sushi_CW
03-03-2006, 12:38 AM
If anything, I'd like it the other way around, with the saber igniting before it comes back.

razorace
03-03-2006, 08:58 AM
I haven't been doing that since the jedi always manually reactivate their sabers when they do get their sabers back in the movies.

Greiver
03-03-2006, 07:38 PM
you could make it so that if the jedi attacks while his/her saber is coming back it turns on midair with a little foce drain and it would be all fair

razorace
03-03-2006, 08:59 PM
I don't think it's realistic. If they could reasonably do that we'd have seen it in the movies. I think the force strain would be too much of a hassle for the payoff.

Vruki Salet
03-03-2006, 11:48 PM
Just let the people turn it on when it reaches them. It's only a keypress or if they want to swing imediately then it'll go on when they press 'attack' right?

Tapela
03-04-2006, 02:08 AM
It isnt practical, its unneeded and just seems too silly. This isnt a realism mod or anything its a game. A button press away that is unnecessary.

razorace
03-04-2006, 04:07 AM
Well, other than Kyle, does anyone actually want this ability?

Vruki Salet
03-04-2006, 01:39 PM
I like the idea of the saber coming back to the hand unlit and then lighting it if you want. I don't like the idea of a performance penalty in the first moments after you get it back.

RBitG
03-04-2006, 02:05 PM
Agreed, it's not as if Jedi are useless enough to be weaker just after they have turned their on, we have all seen Obi-Wan deal killing blows immediately after igniting his saber and then turning it off again with little difficulty.

Sushi_CW
03-04-2006, 04:34 PM
I agree: I'd rather there not be a penalty for igniting the saber.