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Non-false Jedi
03-04-2006, 10:31 AM
One of the major problems i had with TSL was the idea it was pedalling that contradiced the movies completly.

Kreia seems to think that the force controls everything and that nobody has any free will, so she tried to "kill the force".

And she says she loves you because the exile lives "without the force"

We also hear that perhaps life without the force is not the punishment it was thought to be.

The Jedi Council says that they sensed an emptiness in the exile when (s)he was brought before them. And they felt like they were staring into the death of the force. Now fine, perhaps after the horros of war he witnessed a void of feeling isn't really that much of a stretch, but the game treats the force as it it is compeltly independent or even unnatural to life.

The mandalorians say "no use of your force" in the battle circle as if one can turn if off. But the Mandalorians being alive draw from the force aswell!

Most of the lore of the game is whisptered to us through a manipulative (and i'm convinced) mad-woman, who wants to kill destiny which is why this whole thing is confusing, but i get the distinct impression that unlike everything else we've ever heard from star wars...The Sith Lords promotes that idea that the force isn't connected to life, its just something that you can turn away form completly.

Anyone else have any opinions?

Meatbag
03-04-2006, 12:37 PM
The Mandalorian thing is that they don't want you to use the Force for battle, not to turn it off. The Exile stripped himself from the Force to survive. And Kreia is not mad, just complicated. If you get to know her and things, you understand why she is as she is... I hate her but pity her.

Vibro
03-04-2006, 12:41 PM
Yes, the Mandalorians don't want you to turn off the force, merely not to use it against them.

Non-false Jedi
03-04-2006, 02:49 PM
fine that was just a minor point in my "thesis" anyway

Meatbag
03-04-2006, 05:44 PM
You are wrong about Kreia thinking the Force controls everything... she merely sais she hates that the Force seems to have a will, and can affect things.
And The Exile turning away from the Force made him survive, but also made him to be a wound in the Force, a being that should not exist.

Non-false Jedi
03-04-2006, 06:23 PM
on the Academy on Telos, she suggests Revan didn't have any choice to defeat Malak, that it was somehow all the force's doin

Meatbag
03-04-2006, 06:25 PM
So? That doesn't change anything.

Non-false Jedi
03-04-2006, 06:29 PM
what are we talking about here? That the force controls peoples free will or that it has a destiny?

Kreia keeps going on about hte force guiding the party places for a reason

Vibro
03-04-2006, 06:48 PM
You've completely lost me. What's this discussion all about? Whether all life is "touched" by the force?

The Doctor
03-04-2006, 09:37 PM
Here's how I view the issue:
All life is touched by the Force to some degree - the Jedi and Sith are simply more in tune with it, and are able to feel it more freely. What Kreia was saying was not that the Force controlled every aspect of mortal life, but that it seemed to guide events to a certain outcome, and that she wanted life to be free of its influence. The Exile was improtant because she/he was a whole in the Force, one that could use the Force, but not truly feel it. The Exile was an echo, a void in the Force. Kreia wanted to use her/him to deafen the galaxy to the Force, essentially killing it. This is not, as it seems, a contradiction of the believe that without the Force, life could not exist. The Force would live on, but would be unable to influence the events of the galaxy any longer. Why she wanted to do this, and why she hated the Force, I really don't know.
When she says that Revan had no choice but to destory Malak, I think she meant that the Force wanted Malak's death, and that Revan should be the one to bring him down. Why the Force wished Revan to stop Malak, or even why it wanted Malak stopped, nobody can be sure.
The Mandalorians, like all life, feel the Force, but only distantly - not even aware that it's there. When they tell you to not use the Force in the battle circle, they don't mean that you can just turn it off, but that you must refrain from using your Force powers in the battle, giving you an unfair advantage.

Jae Onasi
03-04-2006, 11:33 PM
I view the Force sort of like a sixth sense. Just like some people have better hearing or eyesight than others, some people have more of the Force in them. The more Force power you have, the more you can utilize it. You can actually 'turn off' or ignore your senses--'hysterical blindness' is one example, and many of us have seen the guy who walks across hot coals or lays on a bed of nails but says he feels no pain. I think the turning away from the Force is also like that--it's still there, but the user, for whatever reason, is not able or chooses not to utilize that anymore.

Alkonium
03-04-2006, 11:36 PM
Life without the force, makes me think of the Yuuzhan Vong, who are essentially force-dead, which I guess means a midi-chlorian count of 0. They're a perfect example of life without the force.

HerbieZ
03-05-2006, 11:56 AM
I don't think life would be any different without the force. It's just what they say because they are afraid to lose it. So if you did take it away from them, they'd realise it doesnt make them any different. Just like the human race loosing the ability of Kittens or Cherry Pie, if it's permanantly gone we can still live.

Alkonium
03-05-2006, 12:17 PM
That was the point of my mentioning the Yuuzhan Vong. The exist fine without the Force, although they are a bunch of religious fanatics, but there's probably no corellation.

Point Man
03-05-2006, 12:57 PM
I think The Force is like God: you can deny its existence, and even turn your back and ignore it, but that does not make it cease to exist. Kreia was angry with The Force in the same way some people get angry with God when life does not go the way they want. However, she was deluding herself if she thought she or The Exile could bring about the end of The Force.

JediMaster12
03-05-2006, 01:37 PM
The Force is an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us, pentetrates us and binds the galaxy together. Most people don't understand it.

Calda Raric
03-05-2006, 05:36 PM
nice quote ;)

PoiuyWired
03-05-2006, 05:43 PM
Without the force... you would hate technology and start a weird religious cult...

On the plus side, tentacle hentai seems to be commonplace. :3

Alkonium
03-05-2006, 05:56 PM
Without the force... you would hate technology and start a weird religious cult...

On the plus side, tentacle hentai seems to be commonplace. :3
Ok, maybe the Yuuzhan Vong are a bad example.

Buzz1978
03-05-2006, 06:00 PM
One of the major problems i had with TSL was the idea it was pedalling that contradiced the movies completly.
This wound in/death of the force thing didn't make much sense to me. Other things made a lot of sense IMO.

Kreia seems to think that the force controls everything and that nobody has any free will, so she tried to "kill the force".
First of all I don't believe that this was her motivation. I think she wanted the Exile to become "complete".
O.k. Kreia believes that nobody has any free will. In K1 Bastila said that feeling the force means ultimate free will. Maybe they are both right?
What is free will? Do you possess free will? Let's say you can walk out of the door right now and buy ... I don't know... some peanut butter. And because you got lots of free will you're free to do it in nothing but your underpants! But if you do it, what made you do it? Our whole personality and therefore our ambitions are a product of the (social) environment we grew up in, without this influence we would be only empty shells... So what about free will, now?
Some time ago I discussed this matter with someone who's married to a psychologist and he refused to accept my point and insisted on free will being a mere illusion. I took that as a proof of my opinion that it all depends on the personal point of view...

And she says she loves you because the exile lives "without the force"
Didn't she say it was because the Exile was no real Jedi?

The Jedi Council says that they sensed an emptiness in the exile when (s)he was brought before them. And they felt like they were staring into the death of the force.
Ok, that's what they see. Visas/Disciple think differently...

The mandalorians say "no use of your force" in the battle circle as if one can turn if off. But the Mandalorians being alive draw from the force aswell!
This doesn't make much sense from a Jedi's point of view. They meant actual force powers and have a different understanding of the force but they seem to be unaware that a Jedi draws his physical strength from the force also.

Most of the lore of the game is whisptered to us through a manipulative (and i'm convinced) mad-woman,
Until the end of the 19th century behavior and thinking aberrant from moral standard was considered as madness. People from that time would agree with you. But madness is a concept that totally lacks any sort of rules whether or not it can be applied to someone. As for Kreia she doesn't show any obvious signs of a mental illness.

JediMaster12
03-06-2006, 01:30 AM
The Mandalorian thing is that they don't want you to use the Force for battle, not to turn it off.
My guess is that they don't understand that the Force touches all living things. It is around everyone and everything, in the rock, the tree, a person. Even the most skilled of warriors knows that there is that part that they rely on to survive. Some call it guts, some call it strength. The samurai and the warriors of old believed in balance and that to become skilled it must be brought into balance and the Force is like that; it brings the being into balance. If this sounds wierd forgive me for rambling.

And Kreia is not mad, just complicated. If you get to know her and things, you understand why she is as she is... I hate her but pity her.
Yeah Kreia was a manipulative witch. She...is complicated and for me it was hard to figure her out but one thing sticks in mind is when she sayd, "Perhaps I'm neither" This was in reference to the Are you a Sith question. She hates the Force yet she can't bear the though of being severed from it. I guess she is the epitome of what a person is when faced with a question like that.

HerbieZ
03-06-2006, 11:06 AM
... pentetrates us ...

Wondered what that was last night, i thought it was just a sharp stick.

JediMaster12
03-06-2006, 12:36 PM
If you read it was an energy field created by all living things, then you would know. Probably the best way to describe it is when you reach that point in your life when have an epiphany, a realization of truth. The Exile's dialogue has some good descriptions of that feeling when he speaks to the Handmaiden. It is not a sharp stick it is a feeling that washes over you. Remember the midichlorians speak to those who can hear them and they reveal the knowledge of the Force. If I am sounding to...philosophical, forgive me. Comparative religious study is a subspecialty of mine.

Meatbag
03-06-2006, 03:41 PM
I spent a lot of time to understand the Force, and I think I do. It is complicated, and my mind is set to a specific way of thinking, so worry not if you don't really get it...
I know it doesn't exist (though I hope it does), but it's a interesting phenomenon.

PoiuyWired
03-06-2006, 05:04 PM
Ok, maybe the Yuuzhan Vong are a bad example.
Then, any other example you can find?

JediMaster12
03-06-2006, 05:04 PM
Then I guess you don't hear the Force like the Jedi do :D
I'm not trying to contradict you Meatbag, I'm merely trying to make sense of where your line of thought was heading. I've spent a lot of time studying the theory behind religions and what I found interesting concerning the Force are the parallels drawn to Buddhism and Zen, the whole peace thing going for you. I'm no expert but those are my thoughts and I've come to see the Force as that part of you that is like God touching your heart or what have you. Still if you elaborate on your ideas I would be most willing to view them.

Meatbag
03-07-2006, 10:18 AM
The Force is... unique. It is a specific energy field that interconnects nearly all life. It's nearly everywhere. It's nature is a mystery, but a sentient being's brain can, let's say, develop a interface with it. Let's say the being can interpret signals from it, as if it were a sixth sense, one more powerful than any other. A Jedi learns for the Force to become a part of him. Using the Force, a being can not only "sense" things ("see" them through the Force, I think feeling them through the Force is the best way to say that) but also use the Force to do things, such as move matter. Think of a Jedi with a band over their eyes. Or a Miraluka. They can not only make out the silhouettes of beings and objects, but can also see farther than normal sight - through a wall, for example. Using the Force, one can enter another's mind (the nature of this is somewhat complicated).
The whole will idea, I think the Force might in a way be sentient, but not all the time and controlling everything.
The Force allows one to feel another, but without touching them, or perhaps seeing them. Because our brains work with the set of senses we have from our birth, it is very hard for us to imagine how the Force feels. It's tough, but I sometimes try, not that I can achieve much, though.
I find it kinda hard to explain, that's why this post is so muddled... I think I would do better talking in person, lol, or sharing my thoughts via a brain connection, lol

Prime
03-07-2006, 11:54 AM
Warning: nitpicking below.

I think ultimately you have to keep in mind that the descriptions of the Force and things relating to it are usually discribed metaphorical and it is not always a literal description of how things work.

Kreia seems to think that the force controls everything and that nobody has any free will, so she tried to "kill the force".I think she is thinking more about how the Force guides destinies, and not that it controls everything that happens. We see this first hand in the movies in regards to the prophecy, and has to with the unifying force.

And she says she loves you because the exile lives "without the force" The question is, what does "without" really mean? Is it that the energy field that is the force does not touch/penetrate the Exile? That the Exile's connection to it has been actually severed? Or that the Exile, counciously or subconsiously, has decided to no longer listen/use his connection?

I think the last option is the most likely. The first two are something that probably are out of the Exile's control and ability to rectify, where as the latter can be corrected, which is what we see happening throughout the game. The Exile relearns to listen to his connection. We also learn that the Council did not "physically" severe the Exile from the Force as he originally thought. He had subconciously done that himself as a result of trauma.

We also hear that perhaps life without the force is not the punishment it was thought to be.I think "punishment" is the Jedi point of view. No doubt they think that losing their connection to the Force would be the ultimate loss. I don't think that "life without the Force" is refering to a state where the Force itself didn't exist.

The Jedi Council says that they sensed an emptiness in the exile when (s)he was brought before them. And they felt like they were staring into the death of the force. Now fine, perhaps after the horros of war he witnessed a void of feeling isn't really that much of a stretch, but the game treats the force as it it is compeltly independent or even unnatural to life. I think the "emptiness" they saw was result of the Exile completely isolating himself from the Force. Where they expected to feel his presence in the Force due to the fact he was a Jedi, they did not feel anything, perhaps comparable to a hole in the Force. In essense, the Force didn't seem to exist around the Exile. This lack of existence could be compared to "death" of the Force.

The mandalorians say "no use of your force" in the battle circle as if one can turn if off. But the Mandalorians being alive draw from the force aswell! In this sense they are simply refering to the abilities that the Force provides. Using the Force to provide such abilities is a learned skill, and the Jedi can choose not to use them. No doubt many such abilites become second nature to a Jedi and no longer require thought, but there is no reason to think a Jedi cannot choose to avoid using them. They will still get the "input" from their connection to it, they would just choose to ignore it.

Most of the lore of the game is whisptered to us through a manipulative (and i'm convinced) mad-woman, who wants to kill destiny which is why this whole thing is confusing, but i get the distinct impression that unlike everything else we've ever heard from star wars...The Sith Lords promotes that idea that the force isn't connected to life, its just something that you can turn away form completly.I think it is more trying to severe ones connection to it as much as possible, and so live without relying on it. I don't think it is so much trying to destroy the existence of the Force itself. Again, more a metaphorical explanation.

Just like some people have better hearing or eyesight than others, some people have more of the Force in them. A small point, but I think that it isn't so much that people have more Force in them, but that their connection to it is stronger. One's midiclorian count represents that connection, not how much Force "is in them."

Life without the force, makes me think of the Yuuzhan Vong, who are essentially force-dead, which I guess means a midi-chlorian count of 0.I don't think it is that their midiclorian count is zero, since according to Qui-Gon life without midiclorians would not exist in the SW universe. It is more likely that the Vong have been conditioned/bred/whatever to ignore that connection, much as the exile did.

However, she was deluding herself if she thought she or The Exile could bring about the end of The Force.I think she was delusional to some extent.

It's nature is a mystery, but a sentient being's brain can, let's say, develop a interface with it.Again a nitpick, but the interface with the Force is the midiclorians. The brain only gets trained to listen to what the midiclorians "have to say" about the state of the Force around them.

Let's say the being can interpret signals from it, as if it were a sixth senseEven more nitpicking. I don't think the Force sends signals in the sense of "look out" and "duck now". It is more that the Jedi have learned to judge what is happening around them from the changes in the Force they feel. So they can sense that the Force feels different when something is about to hit them, for example. They have learned to interpret what they feel in the Force and react accordingly.

Meatbag
03-07-2006, 12:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meatbag
It's nature is a mystery, but a sentient being's brain can, let's say, develop a interface with it.

Again a nitpick, but the interface with the Force is the midiclorians. The brain only gets trained to listen to what the midiclorians "have to say" about the state of the Force around them.
I know that! :D

IIRC it's mostly the midichlorians, but also some infusions with the Force to some extent, like the cave on Dantooine, and Holocrons.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meatbag
Let's say the being can interpret signals from it, as if it were a sixth sense

Even more nitpicking. I don't think the Force sends signals in the sense of "look out" and "duck now". It is more that the Jedi have learned to judge what is happening around them from the changes in the Force they feel. So they can sense that the Force feels different when something is about to hit them, for example. They have learned to interpret what they feel in the Force and react accordingly.
I made wrong vocabulary use there, I did not mean the Force tells them to duck. it's their own brain using the Force for "information".

JediMaster12
03-07-2006, 02:29 PM
I think what Prime is intending is that the Force is all the perceptions that a sentient has but heightened to a degree. People talk of auras and how they change when something significant shifts its 'normal' state. The Force is the same way when it comes to sensing danger or what have you. It is a change in the 'aura' surounding the person that it is going to affect. Correct me if I'm wrong Prime.

PazaakPrincess
03-09-2006, 03:25 PM
Look Kreia is just p'd that she was at the pinnacle of Sith Power and lost it all to her two apprentices (though being a Sith she really should have expected it) her real goal is self deluded revenge some sort of compensation for not being to destroy her betrayers herself and being thrown down especially because she had walked both paths and inbetween.

She's just a whole lotta messed in the head. If you're smart Exile you want take much of what she has to say to heart.

PoiuyWired
03-09-2006, 03:38 PM
I know that! :D

IIRC it's mostly the midichlorians, but also some infusions with the Force to some extent, like the cave on Dantooine, and Holocrons.

I made wrong vocabulary use there, I did not mean the Force tells them to duck. it's their own brain using the Force for "information".

... well maybe the force DID tell them to duck... the force can also be a living entity?

Prime
03-10-2006, 01:27 PM
I will try to explain my view better... :)

I think what Prime is intending is that the Force is all the perceptions that a sentient has but heightened to a degree. The force is an energy field that has a natural state (sometimes that seems to be refered to as the "flow"). Presumably every living thing affects the state to some degree, with force-seneative beings have a larger effect (due to their midiclorian concentration perhaps). Force-sensatives can perceive these changes in the state, and interpret them as a different way to perceive there surroundings, amongst other things.

People talk of auras and how they change when something significant shifts its 'normal' state. Pretty much. An "aura" around a force-sensative person really is how they affect the state of the Force.

The Force is the same way when it comes to sensing danger or what have you.Sensing "danger" really is the interpretation of the force-sensative being, not a state of the Force itself. That being senses the state of the Force surrounding them and all the things that it affects it, like other beings and presumably just about anything. The force-sensative being may conclude, either conciously or subconciously, that these things present a threat to them.

PisOgPapir
03-16-2006, 09:54 AM
You are wrong about Kreia thinking the Force controls everything... she merely sais she hates that the Force seems to have a will, and can affect things.
And The Exile turning away from the Force made him survive, but also made him to be a wound in the Force, a being that should not exist.
Actually, you are wrong. She says, i dunno if the dialogue is cut or not, but that the essence of what she is saying is that the force uses us.

Meatbag
03-16-2006, 10:09 AM
Actually, you are wrong. She says, i dunno if the dialogue is cut or not, but that the essence of what she is saying is that the force uses us.
That's what Kreia believes, not what is considered true. Remember, Kreia is slightly deranged. She does say she hates it for having a will.

JediMaster12
03-17-2006, 02:17 PM
Well she sees it as a betrayal when Revan fell to the DS. Then when Sion and Nihilis betray her, that was too much. What greater way o strike down your enemies than to strike down the thing they rely on. In the case of the Jedi, the Force.