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View Full Version : Discussions on Kreia and the Exile (spoilers)


Tysyacha
03-07-2006, 04:43 PM
On Kreia:

Kreia was, in my opinion, a far more in-depth, and thus more sinister,
villain than Malak in the original KOTOR. I clearly knew what Malak's
goals were--to conquer the galaxy and keep his former Master, Revan,
from taking his place or defeating him. With Kreia--I still don't understand
her motivations totally. She always kept me guessing, and the test of
a great villain in my book is: "Do I still feel even a twinge of sympathy
for her in the end?" It was quite easy to defeat Malak--he'd been my
greatest enemy from the beginning. However, Kreia had been my ally
and party member since Level 1. I found it hard to betray her, myself.

If Kreia were a real-live human being, I'd compare her to Madalyn
Murray O'Hair or Ayn Rand, with a little bit of Nietzsche thrown in.
All three were avowed atheists who believed that the power of the
human body, soul, and spirit were far more powerful than that of any
deity. However, Kreia was far more cruel in insisting her way was right...

On the Exile:

At least the way I played my Exile, I don't consider her to be a "wound"
in the Force. Malachor V was the first "wound", and I think Kreia gave
my Exile too much credit. She said that the Exile chose to cut herself
off from the Force, but the Exile didn't completely know what was going
to happen when she activated the Mass Shadow Generator on Mal V.
I think my Exile was more of a "catalyst" in the Force, who could shape events and change the outcome of certain situations through the Force.

My Revan's story was about redemption by accident (I didn't find
out I was Revan until 3/4 of the way through the game!), but I think
my Exile's story was about redemption by choice. In the confrontation
with Atris on Telos, I chose to tell Atris I deserved exile and humble
myself to her, telling her going to war was a mistake. I know one thing
for sure--if I had done what the Exile did on Mal V, I'd be charged with
war crimes! Then I chose to side with the Light and try to heal the
damage I'd caused back then in the war, and the damage Kreia caused.

What are your views of Kreia and your Exile?

Maverick5770
03-07-2006, 09:49 PM
I think the concept of Kriea is very good. Someone so manipulatlive that almost no one can see her manipulation. I NEVER expected her to be the final boss. In a way I thought she was a vey well done character, but she does a little to much, "be willing to kill your friends to succeed" That kind of bothered me.
As for the Exile, I like my Exile, someone who caused so much death that he couldn't feel the force, then tried to heall the entire galaxy. That was a lot of fun. But I enjoyed Revan more, He was Good, Bad, then not knowing who he was he was good, when he found out who he was he still stayed good rather that reclaiming his mantle as dark lord of the sith.

Tysyacha
03-07-2006, 10:11 PM
As for the Exile...how could she heal him/herself? The Jedi Masters call the Exile
"a cipher, a wound in the Force". Is healing accomplished for the Exile after s/he
defeats Darth Traya?

zadi
03-07-2006, 11:24 PM
I never understood why they called Exile a cipher in the force considering the definition of a cipher is totally different then what they describe the Exile.

narfblat
03-07-2006, 11:46 PM
On Kreia:


On the Exile:
She said that the Exile chose to cut herself
off from the Force, but the Exile didn't completely know what was going
to happen when she activated the Mass Shadow Generator on Mal V...
I know one thing
for sure--if I had done what the Exile did on Mal V, I'd be charged with
war crimes!
I thought it was Bao-Dur who did that.

Meatbag
03-08-2006, 10:24 AM
I hate Kreia, but I think she's not stupid, and a very well-built character.
And the Exile? A interesting character! Talk about somebody with a traumatic past, that pointlessly travelled the Outer Rim for a few years.

gandiva
03-08-2006, 11:10 AM
On Kreia:

Kreia was, in my opinion, a far more in-depth, and thus more sinister,
villain than Malak in the original KOTOR.

Hmm... Kreia was no doubt a very good villian and I agree with what you say. But I hated how cryptic she was. That really got on my nerves. I think Malak was in a sense a better villian, though. He was typically more StarWars-ish. But then again, Kreia was too because the whole twist like, "I am actually your enemy" thing like Darth Vader's, "I am your father." I don't know, but I find Malak better. It's probably because Kreia's so cryptic. heh.

The Exile story was okay. It wasn't satisfying, I have to admit. Sometimes it didn't make sense.

jordanmc
03-09-2006, 08:27 PM
One thing I've been wondering about Kreia is how she was going to use the exile to kill the Force. I get that the exile had created a large wound in the force by the atrocity he committed at Malachor V and that his ability to easily form force bonds magnified its echo. But what was she going to have him do that would create a force killing, galaxy wide echo? Destroy Coruscant? Have him become like a more powerful Nihilus? Any ideas?

zadi
03-09-2006, 09:09 PM
I think Kreia's intent was not to become like Nihilus at all. He consumed the Force and killed everything around him. While Exile was a wound and the "Death of the Force" I don't think his/her wound kills the life connected to the Force - it'd be more like how we live without such a thing as "The Force."

Clone L68362
03-09-2006, 10:14 PM
I never understood why they called Exile a cipher in the force considering the definition of a cipher is totally different then what they describe the Exile.

I think that's partly why many didn't like TSL's story as much. Too much gibberish that makes no sense.

But I agree, Kreia was an ingenious and complicated character.

Non-false Jedi
03-10-2006, 06:54 AM
too bad she such was a major part of that gibberish that didn't make sense.

Meatbag
03-10-2006, 10:47 AM
It did make sense... it was just complicated...

Prime
03-10-2006, 11:14 AM
It did make sense... it was just complicated...That's probably more accurate...

JediMaster12
03-10-2006, 11:30 AM
I hate Kreia, but I think she's not stupid, and a very well-built character.
Such thoughts lead to the darkside. :D
Kreia is an interesting character because she sought to find out why Revan fell and in so doing fell herself. The betrayals by Revan, Sion and Nilihis were just to much that she plotted the ultimate revenge, the death of the Force. In doing that she got her revenge on Sion and Nilihis. She tended to see that not everything in the galaxy is the way it seems. The Jedi are not the full light blah blah. The Sith strive for power yes but she saw an even greater power in lies, deceit and manipulation. She is a great character, one ranked up with Sidious in how he managed to gain control of the entire Republic.


And the Exile? A interesting character! Talk about somebody with a traumatic past, that pointlessly travelled the Outer Rim for a few years.
The Exile was wandering the places he touched with war. Sometimes people visit the places they wreaked destruction on as sort of a healing process. It sounds wierd but like Kreia said, "War leaves many scars...It carries with it a terrible price." Sometimes we need to be reminded of the price that we paid for our actions if only to help us grow. The Exile I thought was one unjustly sentenced because of the fear and the arrogance of the Jedi council.

Meatbag
03-10-2006, 12:25 PM
I do not think the Council did it because of own fear. How would they be able to protect the Republic if the Force got destroyed (assuming the Galaxy would exist on, which I don't think would happen)?

JediMaster12
03-10-2006, 01:51 PM
It was fear. Why else would Kavar turn on you after all you have done to help Onderon? Remember it wasn't just them that existed, there were others all scattered. They only put that many in for interaction for game purposes.

Mojambo
03-10-2006, 04:52 PM
When you arrive at Malachor for the final showdown with Kreia and Sion(?), the story unfolds fully and you get to see the reasons and treasons who happen before. I think Kreia knew for a very long time, that she would not be able defeat the exile, and I'm not sure that she wanted to either. She just wanted him to follow Revan's path, whereever that went (KoTOR 3?).

Crunchy in milk
03-28-2006, 04:05 AM
I never understood why they called Exile a cipher in the force considering the definition of a cipher is totally different then what they describe the Exile.

Cipher (cypher) can mean zero, or nonentity.

Its often implied or directly spoken that 'the force' exists in all things (like in Yoda's speech to a young Luke in A New Hope) and likewise, everything is subject to the force.

In TSL there are special dark side assassins that can sense individuals strong in the force. The surviving, hiding council members speak of how they avoided detection. A common ploy being to hide on worlds teaming with life/the force so as not to stand out (even Yoda did this). But what about the exile?

Years wandering alone while all other jedi are hunted to near extinction and none of the assassins finds the exile (see the comments made when first encountering them on the Harbinger). Even Kreia admits to some extent how hard and lucky it was for her to finally track the exile down. The exile somehow withdrew themself not just from being able to lift rocks and shoot lightning from their fingertips... but from being influenced by (and detected through) the force its self. A nonentity.

Religious people in the real world feel that people who don't believe in the divine (or the correct divine) are still subject to divine influence and rules. That everyone faces judgement/is measured (and placed back on the wheel perhaps) and that right and wrong are intrinsic. There are strong parallels to this in Star Wars. Throughout TSL Kreia is continually asking the exile to question the nature of right and wrong and in particular the influence of the Force on perceptions of right and wrong. Bastila also covers it a little in KOTOR when discussing the justifications those influenced by the dark side create for their actions.

I'm inclined to believe Kreia's lines about destroying the force was a bit of mad outburst/pipe dream. A more attainable goal would be for her to make use of both of the exile's extraordinary talents. Use the force bond ability to draw the remaining force sensitives to the exile, and the cipher ability to switch them 'off' from the force. At least then she eliminates the existing dogma and training associated with the force (which would seem to be necessary on occasion if you view the movies in a particular way) and her revenge on those who betrayed her is so much more personal.

Given that in the ending of TSL where the big bomb is set off once again, one has to wonder if in any sequel we actually will play as the exile once more. Was it the great loss of life at Malachor V the first time that triggered the exile's cipher ability or something else? Revan embraced both extremes of the force to be prepared for what was in the unknown regions, a feat clearly not possible for the majority of jedi. Being able to switch yourself off from the force would seem the next best thing. An aid perhaps in slipping deep inside the enemy lines of a force sensitive race? Only to hook up with Revan and rebuild your force abilities (as with Kreia) for whatever mission of daring do the writers come up with?

Wishful thinking on my part I'm sure.

Meatbag
03-28-2006, 08:57 AM
The Mass Shadow Generator effects are reversed at the end of TSL. Bao-Dur says that. The Exile survives.

JediMaster12
03-28-2006, 12:12 PM
Years wandering alone while all other jedi are hunted to near extinction and none of the assassins finds the exile (see the comments made when first encountering them on the Harbinger). Even Kreia admits to some extent how hard and lucky it was for her to finally track the exile down. The exile somehow withdrew themself not just from being able to lift rocks and shoot lightning from their fingertips... but from being influenced by (and detected through) the force its self. A nonentity.
True. The Exile did withdraw himself but he was not cut off from the Force entirely. As you said before, the Force exists in all things. A better way to put it was that he deafened himself to its calling. Remember that everyone has the Force in them but for some it is barely but a measurable whisper. Others don't hear it like the Jedi or Sith do like Atton. He survived long enough without having the Jedi detect him.


Religious people in the real world feel that people who don't believe in the divine (or the correct divine) are still subject to divine influence and rules. That everyone faces judgement/is measured (and placed back on the wheel perhaps) and that right and wrong are intrinsic. There are strong parallels to this in Star Wars. Throughout TSL Kreia is continually asking the exile to question the nature of right and wrong and in particular the influence of the Force on perceptions of right and wrong. Bastila also covers it a little in KOTOR when discussing the justifications those influenced by the dark side create for their actions.
True but in KOTOR the one who seemed to get it right the most was Jolee Bindo. Too bad he's not in TSL.
Still Kreia is trying to make the Exile and us gamers see that not everything is as we were taught to believe, that everything is black or white, light or dark. She is showing us that there are shades of grey. How many of us have doubted what our parents taught us? I know I have and it is a particularly sensitive subject (religion).


I'm inclined to believe Kreia's lines about destroying the force was a bit of mad outburst/pipe dream. A more attainable goal would be for her to make use of both of the exile's extraordinary talents. Use the force bond ability to draw the remaining force sensitives to the exile, and the cipher ability to switch them 'off' from the force. At least then she eliminates the existing dogma and training associated with the force (which would seem to be necessary on occasion if you view the movies in a particular way) and her revenge on those who betrayed her is so much more personal.
Well to Kreia it makes perfect sense to destroy the Force. She was betrayed by Revan when he fell to the DS. She later was stripped of her power when Sion and Nilihis cast her out. She saw it as a betrayal from the Force yet she is afraid of life would be like without the Force. Nothing but a man, a woman or a child. It goes against the whole thing that the Force is in all of us and I think Kreia doesn't realize it that she contradicts herself.


Given that in the ending of TSL where the big bomb is set off once again, one has to wonder if in any sequel we actually will play as the exile once more. Was it the great loss of life at Malachor V the first time that triggered the exile's cipher ability or something else? Revan embraced both extremes of the force to be prepared for what was in the unknown regions, a feat clearly not possible for the majority of jedi. Being able to switch yourself off from the force would seem the next best thing. An aid perhaps in slipping deep inside the enemy lines of a force sensitive race? Only to hook up with Revan and rebuild your force abilities (as with Kreia) for whatever mission of daring do the writers come up with?

Malachor V was the final blow during the Mandalorian wars that triggered the Exile's deafening. At the scene where you meet the masters on Danooine, they explain it in those terms. The Exile was afraid of what he saw and felt of the dying and in so doing, deafening himself to the Force. Where Revan wanders now, Kreia said that he will need allies be they Jedi or Sith. T3 sought the Exile because the Exile knew the price of war and knew the costs. True the next installment is in the hands of the writers but eh...

†Saint_Killa†
03-29-2006, 08:07 AM
^^^^^
And the hands of the writers should be writing what the fans like and make it more $$$$$
kaching!!!!!

shinyjedi
04-13-2006, 09:41 PM
I've been trying to figure out what Kriea was up to from the moment I finished my first playthrough (just finished my 3rd) and I must admit that I haven't managed to come up with anything that passes the puzzle test.

We have her stated goals, we have her manipulations, we see some of her pawns. But we never see enough of her plans to put it all together coherently. There are too many things she does that just don't make any sense.

Among them:

What is Canderous' part in her plan? We know he has one, but it never gets properly addressed. Is is simply to protect the Exile? Exile has other protectors, and Kriea's already griping about how crowded the ship is. After Dxun, what does Canderous really bring to the party?

Why send Hanharr to Malachor? Okay, he's supposed to kill "the Huntress". To what end? Why her specifically? Mira doesn't actually do much storywise after the rescue. Obviously, Kriea sees her as some particular threat, but, again, the player never gets let in on the secret.

What's going on with the return to Telos? Kriea doesn't really need Brianna to get inside, and she obviously doesn't need her to get away. (And what the hell is she using for transportation?) With her power to either kil everybody in her wayl or conceal herself from notice, getting to Atris can't be much of a problem (as we see by the simple fact that she does it while Brianna, mysteriously separated from Kriea is dealing with the other handmaidens

Why use Tobin to draw in Nihilous? Was it Nihilous who was backing the Onderonian rebellion? Why? He's not even supposed to be aware of things on that level. Sounds more like one of Sion's operations. Anf if Sion was the Sith du jour, why go to Nihilous?

How about Sion? In the beginning, they fight, later we see how he (and Nihilous) cast her down, but in the end, she just waltzes in and takes over without a twitch from him. After killing a mess of assasins apparently just for giggles.

And the final confrontation just didn't make any sense at all. Was her intent to destroy the exile as she, herself was being destroyed, thus causing a ripple of non-force (anti-force?) outward? Was she trying to turn the exile? Into what? Was her goal to show the galaxy it's possible to live without the force, and thereby marginalize it? Who freaking knows?!?!

Kriea is a marvelously psychotic and layered character, but she's that great book you buy at the thrift store only to discover that half the pages are missing.


What to say about the Exile? As I play through the game and see all the little things that crop up here and there, I fear that the Jedi were right and that she/he is somehow leaching the force from his/her companions. But there are so many other things in the game that seem to contradict that. In the end, I choose to believe that the Exile has come to an accomidation of sorts with herself and the force. I feel as though he/she has reachieved a connection, but one so filtered through his/her experiences that traditional force users just don't recognize it. I can make all the puzzle pieces fit that way.

tbl1
04-18-2006, 07:33 AM
Even at the end, I never really felt that Kreia was a bad guy. She still seemed pretty neutral

Mace MacLeod
04-18-2006, 09:04 AM
And all this stuff is really TSL's single biggest problem--the fact that you can have endless speculation about what it all "really means". Obsidian made a lot of great improvements to KotOR, but they just didn't finish tying all the plotlines together into a coherent story. KotOR gives you a lot of great little easter eggs to dig for, but they were always in the context of a clear overarching storyline that was never in any doubt. I mean, your little avatar was butchering his/her way through hordes of sith and other assorted nasties to either save the galaxy or conquer it, and the sidequests were just that, sidequests. In TSL, you kind of ramble around, messing up a few planets and depopulating the local wildlife, trying to find someone to finally give you the answers to all the cryptic questions the game raises. To get those answers, you shouldn't have to have x influence with x character at any given time because you can miss them that way. Major plot points should not be missable--they should have large, clearly defined signs beside them in large flashing neon letters that say: "This Is A Major Plot Point". After the very first playthrough, regardless of gender or alignment, you should know clearly and unambiguously what the hell you just did. You should not have to go online and leaf through a walkthrough done by someone who played the game 300 times/was the lead beta tester/has personally gone to George Lucas's house for a pajama party/whatever to understand the story.

And this "death of the force" thing was just silly. In the back of your mind, you know damn well that the Star Wars universe, Republic, Jedi, Force and all keep right on going until the movies. Luke, Leia, Vader and the rest all have to eventually be born and make it to 1977. We all know this.

JediMaster12
04-18-2006, 02:35 PM
Kreia sought the death of the Force but never achieved it. She knew she couldn't. As to the flashing signs, I doubt that would happen unless a modder makes them :D
I think TSL was meant to make us see the chaos in a time of darkness and recovery for the Republic. Of course the Republic is a beast that is slowly dying. It snuffs it in ROTS.

KyleOfHarpenden
04-18-2006, 02:55 PM
Kreia:Always a subject of debate, she is in a way the queen of the chess board the Exile is the king(exectra) Kreia is a teacher she is trying to show u that she was cast out of the jedi and th sith and that the force in itself will ultimately betray you. The exile was a leader by making connections throuhg the force and taking it away from the person this is how he was able to reconnect with the force, Both the exile and Kreia where cut off from the force by the Mandlorian wars and at Malaccore 5 where it started she wanted to end it, She says that Malacore 5 has changed, it has because now the exile can hear the force over it. He was reconnected by the force because they connected when they where both half deadish, she didnt want you to be a sith or a jedi she wanted you to show the jedi the flaws in there teaching and show the sith the flaws in theres her characted was slimy and hard to preidct but she was strong and dark witch what made me think she is what make TSL;) she wanted to destory the force becaus eboth of the groups that used the fprce cast her out, she seeke3d the ultimate revenge she used the Exile because Nihilus couldnt drain the force out of him because he had lived wihtout the force and for sion he could make him let go of the force, In the final fight she was trying to show you the power of the force, She wanted you to defeat all of her apprentices and that is why she wanted you to follow revan so that you could destroy him and i think if there in a kotor3 there will be a big fight between Revan and the Exile over the galaxy.

Mace MacLeod
04-19-2006, 10:50 AM
heh, the flashing light thing was kinda metaphorical ;)

Don't get me wrong, TSL and KotOR were both two of the best games I've ever played, but in the first one, the guys who made it started out with a story and fleshed the game out around that story. In TSL, it's like they were making it up as they went along and just ran out of time, money and ideas. It's one thing to make the motives murky and mysterious, but for the story to work, sooner or later you have to tie it all together. Imagine how much more meaningful the ending would have been if TSL actually showed you what happened to your merry little band like the first game. Now imagine if, at the end of Return of the Jedi, Darth Vader just lay there on the Death Star floor and TOLD Luke what was going to happen to his friends, and the movie ended with Luke's X-Wing flying morosely off into the darkness.