PDA

View Full Version : Force Power Suggestions


razorace
03-09-2006, 04:38 PM
Hello All,

I think we're at the point of development with Enhanced's saber system that we need to start considering what changes we should make to the Force Powers to make them a part of a more rounded Enhanced gameplay system.

Here are My Ramblings So Far:

- Force Powers are exhausting! The FP cost for Force Powers should be high since they require so much concentration and effort.

- Body-based Force Powers (speed, jump, etc) are inherently easier to do because the force user has a more personal Force connection to his own body. External/Unnatural powers like Push/Pull and Lightning should be harder to do. This is also the primary reason why it's easier to do lightsaber combat than Force power battles for Jedi.

- Using a Force power while using your saber lowers it's effective power because the player is also having to concentrate on being ready to block saber attacks.

dtriniman
03-09-2006, 07:11 PM
Prepare for a long thread because everyone will want to put in their 2 cents. For me the ultimate SW game will have a KOTOR storyline with Jedi Knight action. So taking this into consideration, if you want to go with force powers even if it is to inject it into a Jedi Knight game lets talk KOTOR (and KOTOR II :TSL).

For Jedi Knight (both Outcast & Academy) so far we've encountered (both SP & MP): Jump, Speed, Push, Pull, Lightning, Grip, Dark Rage, Absorb, Drain, Saber throw & Heal.

What I like about the 2 KOTOR games is the wide range of powers you got:

Universal Powers

Adv Throw Lightsaber
Affect Mind
Battle Meditation
Beast Trick
Breath Control
Burst of Speed
Dominate Mind
Energy Resistance
Force Affinity
Force Body
Force Breach
Force Camouflage
Force Channel
Force Confusion
Force Deflection
Force Immunity
Force Potency
Force Push
Force Redirection
Force Resistance
Force Sight
Force Suppression
Force Wave
Force Whirlwind
Imp. Battle Meditation
Imp. Energy Resistance
Imp. Force Body
Imp. Force Camouflage
Knight Speed
Mind Trick
Mstr Battle Meditation
Mstr Enrgy Resistance
Mstr Force Body
Mstr Force Camouflage
Mstr Speed
Precognition
Throw Lightsaber

Light Side Powers

Destroy Droid
Disable Droid
Force Armor
Force Aura
Force Barrier
Force Enlightenment
Force Shield
Force Valor
Heal
Imp. Force Barrier
Imp. Heal
Imp. Revitalize
Inspire Followers I
Inspire Followers II
Inspire Followers III
Inspire Followers IV
Inspire Followers V
Knight Valor
Mstr Force Barrier
Mstr Heal
Mstr Revitalize
Mstr Valor
Revitalize
Stasis
Stasis Field
Stun
Stun Droid

Dark Side Powers

Affliction
Choke
Crush Opposition I
Crush Opposition II
Crush Opposition III
Crush Opposition IV
Crush Opposition V
Death Field
Drain Force
Drain Life
Fear
Force Crush
Force Scream
Force Lightning
Force Storm
Fury
Horror
Imp. Drain Force
Imp. Force Scream
Insanity
Mstr Drain Force
Mstr Force Scream
Kill
Plague
Shock
Slow
Wound

And btw having a saber in your hand doesn't make your powers less effective or accurate for that matter.

End of part 1

Tapela
03-09-2006, 07:12 PM
I personally think force powers should be part of the gameplay but have a draining risk or con to them, they should cost a decent amount depending on the power, here are my suggestions on the current powers available ingame. Basically I think powers should be activated for a one time use like push or toggled and have them drain force over time. (phew took awhile to post couldnt connect to the forums for some reason for awhile razor x.x)

This is just a rough description of how i see most force powers based on what they would do. I thought about making it have ranks and everything to be more detailed but I didnt wanna make the post any longer than it already is.

Neutral Force powers : Powers given both to Jedi and Sith I personally have viewed them as basics and thus shouldn't cost too much to perform but because of that they're mainly to assist the player and not for attacking/defending.

1) Force Sense : I've always felt that this power was pretty decent to find enemies but I always used it only for a few seconds unless I was completely lost and could not find the enemy at all. I think it could be a toggle force power and gradually drain force as it is enabled, though right now Its cost is 20 fp which doesnt seem to be that much normally but thats quite a bit of attacking(20 swings) in OJP E. Allows you to see people through walls, and see what force powers someone has on them IE absorb/protection. If they have both mix the shader color to tell you that. (2 fp every 3 seconds up to 20 fp for the full duration of the ability cost at max rank)

2) Force Jump : Right now I think it might drain a bit much fp for the power, I know you adjusted the back flip and side flip fp cost maybe this could be adjusted. I don't think anything else would be necessary to change in how it works. There is worry about people jumping around like bunnies but i think the cost would eventually stop that pretty quick as the cost will build up and they will be exhausted. (I think maybe 10/15 FP for a full jump at max rank)

3) Force Push : As it is now it seems pretty nicely balanced and there probably should be little change. I know razor implemented the knock down from sp and now it seems pretty perfect. The only adjusting would be how it affects things like other force powers. (Should cost about 20/25 FP which is a good amount at max rank).

4) Force Pull : I'm not quite sure why it pulled people to you but I can see how useful it is if you'd wanna bring someone who is gripping you down off a ledge with you. Not quite sure how much this one should cost seeing as this seems one of the fairly basic and easier things to do in the movies, maybe make it weaker as in not cause knock down and only pull people forward. Otherwise it would disarm weapons for a little lower cost than push. (Maybe 10-15 FP at max rank)

5) Force Speed : I've never really liked how this one was implemented in Jedi Outcast/Academy. I've always felt it should be a toggled burst of speed that drains force powers extremely quickly leading to exhaustion. Pros of this power would be the ability to catch fleeing enemies and quickly attack and cons would be its draining force cost and your saber must deactivated to run. When you swing the power is automaticly toggled off. (I think the FP drain over time hould be 5 FP every 3 seconds as it is toggled on at max rank)


Lightside Powers : To me the lightside has been more about enhancing your defensive abilities and concertration, in JKA base we see them mostly be miracle powers of healing and shields. I think that should be changed quite significantly.

1) Force Heal : This one I'm not sure how to change, right now hp in a duel is not very significant since the sabers are lethal and DP is more like your life points. I think it should be a toggled force power to convert your FP to DP at a faster rate as well as slowly heal your health if you are wounded. Since it requires alot of concertration it should be broken if you're forced to block, swing or run. It should convert the fp to dp at a much lower rate when your saber is drawn. (Force heal drains 10 fp every 3 seconds and converts it to restore 10 hp every 3 seconds and 5 dp every 3 seconds at max rank)

2) Force Protection : I for one have always hated how protection has been portrayed because it seems so out there and unrealisticly silly. It pretty much was a ugly green shield (get rid of the graphic and enhance the sound!) that lowered damage delt on you. I believe it should be an enhancing force power, enhancing your defense making it cost less dp to block. The power should be activated for a base force cost, much like is in base. (FP cost would be 30-40 FP to activate and force protection would last for 10 seconds decreasing the DP it costs to block attacks by 50% at max rank)

3) Mind Trick : I'm not sure how I would change this ability as it seems pretty unorthodox in a fight against force sensitive. I think it would be fine left alone, to be used as an escape method or sneak attack.

4) Force Absorb : This power should absorb all offensive powers and give you FP for it much like it does currently. However I'm not sure if it is a toggled ability that drains force over time or if it is an activated ability. I think it should be activated so it isnt too overpowering of a counter against darkside powers. However it shouldnt play a sound or have a graphic that a player could see without sense. (30-40 FP to activate absorb for 10-15 seconds, at max rank grants you 2x the force cost of the darkside power used on you while absorb is active)


Darkside Powers : Darkside powers should be very offensive and drain alot of FP to use as they are the most unnatural and take alot of concertration and cause exhaustion pretty quickly.


1) Force Lightning : I want to say that I love the way you have it now, it causes knock back and is fairly lethal but can be blocked with a saber. However it should drain little of the victims dp when you use force lightning while your saber is drawn and it shouldnt knock back unless you're unarmed (in melee). That way you sacrifice being chopped up if you use force lightning at its full power (both hands) but its very lethal and causes knock back.

2) Force Grip : Ahh the evil grip, we've all been victim of it in MP games. I wonder if it is possible to port the SP grip to MP, make it have a sort of push effect when you fling your mouse in one direction and let go. I think grip should cost quite alot of FP because it disarms an opponent and causes a bit of damage, however it is easily countered by force push or damaging the opponent using grip. With a saber drawn the grip should work much like it does now, however without one drawn It could work like in SP where you're able to fling your victim around like a ragdoll. (I think fp cost should be 40 FP and cause 10 damage a second at max rank while your victim is gripped until they're dead)

3) Force Rage : I think this should be an offensive enhancement force power and make your swings cost more DP damage if not parried or nullified by another swing. However it should cost alot of FP as a con and your damage could be all nullified by a skilled player with parries/swing blocking paired with force protection . (I think it should cost 30-40 FP to activate and give you double DP damage for all swings, including doubling the fake dp damage for 10 seconds at max rank)

4) Force Drain : Not much to say about this power aside from it being really unorthodox, i don't like it much and so I have no idea how I would change this for OJP E balance. I think it could be removed and replaced with a new force power using the force to throw objects offensively. Razorace had a good idea about it.


Soo finally done with my post, I look forward to everyone elses ideas and suggestions for force powers.


And btw having a saber in your hand doesn't make your powers less effective or accurate for that matter.

I strongly disagree in the movies we've never really seen advanced force powers unless it was with two hands and in pretty good concertration. I think basics like neutrals should be unaffected by having an ignited saber but the advanced ones should.

dtriniman
03-09-2006, 07:28 PM
In KOTOR (I & II) your level determines the amount of Force Powers you have, the amount of points you have towards these powers and the rate @ which they refresh once you start using them. In battle your powers regenerate slower than being out of combat. Now heres what I like also the powers dont just upgrade they change. e.g for both JK games lets take push for example
Push begins at 1 then goes to 2 and 3 with the amount for force you use goign up, the area affected by your power goign up and the effect time goign up.

In KOTOR you start out with push which affects the person in the direction you're facing. Level 2 is called Force Whirlwind in which the person is picked up off the ground and is twirled around in a malestron of air and dust rendering them unable to attack you while leaving them wide open to attack. The next upgrade is Force Wave which is like a telekenetic explosion all around the jedi. Knockign every enemy to the floor and stunning the weaker ones. (360 degree push bomb you could say).

This is the kind of thought that was put into the game why its arguably the best SW game ever. (oh right it won game of the year 2003 how could i forget) If this kind of stuff was injected into a JK game it would make my day.

JRHockney*
03-09-2006, 07:46 PM
I was thinking, maybe sense it takes a long time to kill someone in the movies with lightning, maybe we should lessen the FP cost, lessen the damage done (since it has knock down now), AND DEFINITELY lessen the rate of DP drain on when zapping a person with a saber.

With the lessened damage and lessened FP cost, we might have to allow gunners some kind of get away though so its not spammed against them.

Idea: Make absorb, reflect the lightning back at the person in malee and have the absorber use the lightning throwing animation to do it. Eventually, this idea could turn in to a "lightning lock" like in espisode 3.

Tapela
03-09-2006, 08:21 PM
I was thinking, maybe sense it takes a long time to kill someone in the movies with lightning, maybe we should lessen the FP cost, lessen the damage done (since it has knock down now), AND DEFINITELY lessen the rate of DP drain on when zapping a person with a saber.

With the lessened damage and lessened FP cost, we might have to allow gunners some kind of get away though so its not spammed against them.

Idea: Make absorb, reflect the lightning back at the person in malee and have the absorber use the lightning throwing animation to do it. Eventually, this idea could turn in to a "lightning lock" like in espisode 3.

I think that lightning should definitely be lethal, if it isnt it becomes useless and its one of the core darkside powers so I don't think it should be useless, infact I don't think any power should be totally without benefit at a cost. But I do agree that it should drain less dp damage because people can easily just drain your dp and do a lunge and win very fast. Just not so little dp damage that its essentially useless to use against anyone that isnt a gunner.

Your idea for absorb is cool but it could be a hassle, would it require new graphics / animations? For my suggestions I tried to be more simple, wish JKA originally had the ability to throw barrels/objects from the map at your opponent kind of like in JK1 :(. That to me fits darkside more than some weird drain ability heh.

JRHockney*
03-09-2006, 08:41 PM
I think that lightning should definitely be lethal, if it isnt it becomes useless and its one of the core darkside powers so I don't think it should be useless, infact I don't think any power should be totally without benefit at a cost. But I do agree that it should drain less dp damage because people can easily just drain your dp and do a lunge and win very fast. Just not so little dp damage that its essentially useless to use against anyone that isnt a gunner.


I just dont think thats movie realistic for it to do that much damage that quickly. I think that as long as the FP cost is balanced against the DP damage, it will work alright.

Your idea for absorb is cool but it could be a hassle, would it require new graphics / animations?

I think with the existing animations it wouldnt be that much of a hassle. Just some interesting if/then C statements which razor could do pretty easily most likely.

Sushi_CW
03-13-2006, 03:39 PM
EDIT: Sorry about the double post. Network issues. :/

Sushi_CW
03-13-2006, 05:06 PM
- Force Powers are exhausting! The FP cost for Force Powers should be high since they require so much concentration and effort.

- Body-based Force Powers (speed, jump, etc) are inherently easier to do because the force user has a more personal Force connection to his own body. External/Unnatural powers like Push/Pull and Lightning should be harder to do. This is also the primary reason why it's easier to do lightsaber combat than Force power battles for Jedi.

- Using a Force power while using your saber lowers it's effective power because the player is also having to concentrate on being ready to block saber attacks.

This all sounds pretty good to me. However, I think that it would be better to have lowering your saber boost your force abilities instead of having your abilities lowered when a saber is out. For example, I'd rather have a +1 boost to push ability with saber lowered than a -1 penalty to push ability with saber raised. Also, I don't think it should necessarily apply to every force power.


I personally think force powers should be part of the gameplay but have a draining risk or con to them, they should cost a decent amount depending on the power, here are my suggestions on the current powers available ingame. Basically I think powers should be activated for a one time use like push or toggled and have them drain force over time.


I agree with this as well... for force powers that are chosen to apply (speed, sense, etc), I'd generally rather see a slow drain with no initial cost than a huge initial cost with no drain. The "toggled" powers should automatically deactivate after a certain time, though, to prevent players from accidentally draining all of their FP because they forgot to deactivate a power.


And now my own rantings...

Force Push, Force Pull
These are basically fine as they are. I would kind of like to see the force pull-slash and force pull-stab moves work effectively, so they cause significant DP damage (they don't seem to at the moment).

Force Jump
It would be nice if this cost slightly less.

Force Speed
I'd like this to be a toggled power.
I kind of like Tapela's idea of having this automatically deactivate on swing. It would make this most useful for catching up to enemies or attempting an escape. I think it would be cool if a force push on a charging speeder or a pull on an escaping speeder would deactivate their speed as well (besides potentially knocking them down).

Force Sense
I'd like this to be a toggled power.
This works pretty well as is. It would be kind of cool if a high-level force sense on a nearby enemy would show their current FP, DP, or both.

Absorb
Good as is, I think. I can see this working well as a toggled power.

Protect
I agree with Tapela on this one... it should reduce DP costs by a fraction depending on the level of Protect. I think this one would work well toggled as well.

Mind Trick
Works just fine. This should be a toggled power.

Heal
I mostly agree with Tapela, although I don't think it should necessarily stop during combat. How easy it is to heal/how fast you can convert FP/DP should depend on the level. I'm not so sure about the idea that having your saber drawn penalizes your heal.

Lightning
This seems pretty good as-is. Lightning should be saber-blockable if the defender is more-or-less directly facing the attacker. It would also be kind of cool if at very close range, the lightning blocked by the saber would actually reflect back on the attacker (ala Windu vs. Palpatine). Blocking lightning should cost less DP than it does now, but should cost enough to hurt (since it's so expensive in FP for the attacker).

Grip
This works fairly well as is. I like Tapela's suggestions on this too.

Rage
This should be a toggle power that increases DP damage, but drains FP as well as health. Simple enough. :)

Drain
Like Tapela, I wouldn't be sorry to see this go (my least favorite power). It doesn't seem to fit very well in the OJPE system, but if we have to keep it, make it do something like drain enemy FP to increase the DP regen rate (similar to heal). The advantage to using Heal is that it couldn't be blocked by an absorb, the advantage to Drain is that it hurts the enemy in the process.

Tapela
03-13-2006, 09:33 PM
Hi Sushi_CW you have some pretty good ideas (sense why didn't I think of that? And drain is a very good idea too, hehe) but I disagree with a few things. Just to clarify I think toggle powers should have a cost to activate, that way players don't abuse things like absorb and toggle it on for 1 second and then off before it drains fp. Lets just say for example Tapela uses Absorb : 5 fp drained, 3 seconds till next 5fp is drained, like a tick.

1) Sense if it was as useful as displaying the stats of your opponent would have to cost a little more or something cause that information would help alot in a 1v1 fight.

2) Absorb being a drained toggle power would be overpowering if it didnt drain enough fp per second But yeah toggle could work fine as long as its a moderate fp/sec drain rate.

3) Protect as a toggle ability would be very very powerful and I'm not sure it would be balanced unless the FP/sec ratio is very high. Guess that would make most lightside toggle abilities and alot of darkside activated.

4) Heal being penalized cause of saber drawn plays off razoraces guidelines/ideas about force powers. I think the idea would work best with heal because it healing dp would make it very strong with a saber to protect you being forced into a dodge, so if its reduced by 50 percent or 25 while your saber is ignited its effectiveness is exchanged for protection.

Lathain Valtiel
03-14-2006, 08:16 PM
Here's a nice suggestion.

UN-NERF FORCE LIGHTNIG AND GRIP.

Seriously. What is wrong with you people?

Do you all suck so bad you can't Absorb, Push, Pull, or Lightning somene who tries to Grip you? If I can do that without binding any of them, you really don't have an excuse short of your own ineptitude.

And saber lightning absorb... Is this a joke? It's not very funny. If you don't have absorb, YOU PAY THE DAMN PRICE. Or, wait, try this: DRAIN THEM DRY AS THEY LIGHTNING YOU! A novel idea! Make it so that they basically drain their force twice as fast! Except, oh, you all complained about Drain. Grand.

*Rolls eyes*

Oh, PS: Protect as toggle... HELLO? WHAT DO YOU THINK DRAIN IS THERE FOR!?

razorace
03-14-2006, 11:38 PM
As I mentioned in the saber suggestions thread. The unmodifed grip was a major issue in power duel because the double team could just grip the player and have the other player just slash the soler down before they can even push (there's a delay) the gripper away.

Lathain Valtiel
03-14-2006, 11:41 PM
Then pre-empt with absorb.

Or disable Grip in PD. Or whatever. No need to kill the thing.

razorace
03-14-2006, 11:44 PM
I haven't killed it. I just made it be auto-counterable just like Push/Pull. If the player has a stronger level of grip than the victim has grip/absorb, they can still use the power just like they used too.

Lathain Valtiel
03-14-2006, 11:46 PM
But why do this ANYWHERE but PD? It makes no sense.

razorace
03-15-2006, 12:00 AM
Well, why should grip/lightning not have auto-protection like push/pull does in basejka? It's not like grip or lightning have any sort of windup period, they're all instant start attacks.

Tapela
03-15-2006, 12:53 AM
Doh I guess my post earlier never went through correctly. Anyways I think the powers need to be rebalanced because FP is your life in OJP enhanced and draining it from ranged kind of broke things. It reduced the gameplays speed greatly and generally made it unfun. So I was thinking drain could be made like it is in singleplayer which is more like a grapple move that drains the opponent. The cons would be that you'd have to get up close in melee to use it, the pros would be draining your enemies force by a moderate amount while restoring your own fp/hp. I think people who preffered melee would like it, just an alternative idea for drain, also it could work with a saber activated at a reduced rate or something.

razorace
03-15-2006, 02:39 AM
Personally, I don't think Dark Jedi can stuck FP/DP like vampires. It's a cool move, but not a realistic one.

As for drain, for 0.0.9, I just replaced it with lightning so it does the drain effects but does lightning instead of drain damage.

Lathain Valtiel
03-15-2006, 11:53 AM
Well, why should grip/lightning not have auto-protection like push/pull does in basejka? It's not like grip or lightning have any sort of windup period, they're all instant start attacks.

Because you can completely nullify them with almost painful ease (Oh wow, 5 damage. *Cry*) and they suck FP greedily?

The same does not apply to Push and Pull, since you go into a momentary movement lapse with or without Absorb. But they don't do damage.

Alesh
03-15-2006, 12:08 PM
Here's a little idea i had a long long time ago (suggested it for MB but i don't think anybody liked it :P) about jump.

Looking at the movies, every time we see jedi do a "force jump" (ie: a really superhuman one) they seem to prepare, so my idea would be modifying jump so it does the following:

Level 1: Allows for a force jump.
Level 2: Normal jump x1.5, cheaper force jump, charges faster.
Level 3: Normal jump x2, chapest force jump, fastest charge.

Pressing the jump key would be only for non-force jumps (i might've gone a bit low on the values for the upgrades, perhaps x2 and x3 would be better), to perform a force jump you'd crouch and press jump while doing so to start charging it (and spending force, giving a more visual indication on how charged it is). The moment you release crouch the jump triggers. Releasing jump without releasing crouch would abort the jump.

The direction you're pressing could decide the direction you're "shot" to, so if you're pressing forward you do the SP speed+jump thing perhaps, while staying still does a very high one, without much direction.

This could have the side effect of making it harder to jump away from fights, since you'd be restricted to "low" jumps or having to charge it.

razorace
03-15-2006, 06:01 PM
Because you can completely nullify them with almost painful ease (Oh wow, 5 damage. *Cry*) and they suck FP greedily?

The same does not apply to Push and Pull, since you go into a momentary movement lapse with or without Absorb. But they don't do damage.
That doesn't apply to lightning anymore since it now causes knockdown and knockback.

As for grip, the fact that the player ends up floating in the air without any sort of protection is much more vulnerable than it used to be due to the lethal nature of being midair and with lethal weapons. The idea of requiring Dodge to be depleted a bit before it can be used to to prevent players from abusing grip on players that have equal or greater force points in those skills. Right now, I suppose you do technically have to be in stun or heavy slow bounce to make it work. Maybe it would be better if it was just based on the current DP level of the player or something.

As for Jump, I don't think charging up jump would make the jump better. I remember the original Jedi Knight game and the charging just made it much harder to perform jumps correctly. I like the idea of a vertical based crouch jump thou. Plus, in the movies, we do see the stronger force users jump without much preparation (Dooku, Yoda, Sidius).

Grey Raven
04-12-2006, 09:47 PM
Just a thought I've been tinkering around with: in the movies and the books, which have to hold as our only true references, the Force doesn't exist with a Jedi in a pool that he or she can just throw around at anytime. Instead we're given the idea that the Jedi channel the Force. To recreate this, use the saber alt-attack button as a Force-channel button.

I know this sounds crazy, especially after the major sabersys revamp, but stick with me.

The basic premise would be that when a Jedi-class character enters a game, he is begins with a very small amount of mana, say 0 to 10 on the meter. This value would remain the same until the player presses the alt-attack button. This would cause the player's force meter to charge slowly for the duration the button is held down, until the meter reaches a maximum amout (100 - 200). This charging of the meter, or "channeling of the Force" would cause different things to happen: the player would automatically block incoming projectile and saber attacks, their swings would become faster, they would run/walk faster, jump higher, jump faster, and be able to "Force see". Now, while the button is held down, other force powers would also become available, based on how charged the meter is, and would be accessed by pressing the appropriate key. Basically, the more charged the meter, the more powerful the force power. Also, as a hitch to balance things out a little: I can't be the only one to realize that the dark side powers nerf the light side. The only useful light power is absorb, and that is buggy. Therefore, any use of light side-oriented powers would come off as usual, but the dark side powers, due to the idea that cause a much greater more chaotic flow of energy to flow through the body, would actually do damage to the player who uses them. The greater the power of the dark side power, the health it would drain to use. To balance this, the drain ability would drain health from opponents, instead of FP. As a second counter to this and other effects, the as the force meter charges, the player would become more resistant to powers of a lower charge, and a bonus would be granted to players who could maintain a charged meter by giving them HP for every time interval (say, 30 sec) that they have a charged meter.

Now, I know this sounds like players would just run around and blast everyone with force powers, because the powers themselves would cause NO MANA DRAIN to use. BUT, any time a player would take damage, or be affected by a more powerful force power, their meter would begin to drain.

You could also add other effects, like making dark side users lower the charging rate of any light side users within a certain radius of them (sort of a KOTOR2 "Sith Lord" effect), and things of the like. Use your imagination.

razorace
04-13-2006, 04:50 AM
So, it would really be more of an concentration meter than a energy meter. I've thought about something like that. The problem I see with it is that it only really works for constant effect powers. Instant powers and such just wouldn't work too good.

Secondly, charging up your Force would probably be too slow of a build up compared to the speed of the Force usage in the movies.

Vruki Salet
04-13-2006, 01:18 PM
Secondly, charging up your Force would probably be too slow of a build up compared to the speed of the Force usage in the movies.

How about starting with a pool of FP automatically then getting more by charging? Like starting with half your potential then needing charging the rest.

razorace
04-13-2006, 04:16 PM
When would a jedi in combat NOT be focusing their connection to the Force?

Neon
04-13-2006, 05:43 PM
I always liked to be able to push switches from a distance with the force.

razorace
04-13-2006, 08:11 PM
Which switches don't let you do that?

Grey Raven
04-13-2006, 10:08 PM
So, it would really be more of an concentration meter than a energy meter. I've thought about something like that. The problem I see with it is that it only really works for constant effect powers. Instant powers and such just wouldn't work too good.

Sure it would. Simply add a multiplier to all the force-based powers. For instance, the height of a force jump would be the base jump height multiplied by (ps->fd.forcepower / 4), and the velocity would be base velocity multiplied by (ps->fd.forcepower / 8). Of course, you'd have to do some type-casting, but it would work. For things like speed, use the same kind of multiplier, but change the values for balance.

Secondly, charging up your Force would probably be too slow of a build up compared to the speed of the Force usage in the movies.

What I had in mind was making the force meter have instant and automatic effect on the player. Say your speed is based on a base speed multiplied by half of your force meter system. The idea is to make this effect automatic. As the player charges his meter, the code automatically applies the changes to his speed, jump height, jump velocity, defense, offense etc. However, to keep the player in control of what's happening to him, program a maximum auto-level. In english, once the player has reached a 25% increase in his speed, he would not become any faster until he pressed a button to activate his force speed, regardless of the charge of his meter.

How about starting with a pool of FP automatically then getting more by charging? Like starting with half your potential then needing charging the rest.

Bingo, but something less than half. More like 10 to 25% meter. The exact value would have to be determined through actual beta testing, but anywhere between that range would be a safe bet.

razorace
04-13-2006, 11:33 PM
Sure it would. Simply add a multiplier to all the force-based powers. For instance, the height of a force jump would be the base jump height multiplied by (ps->fd.forcepower / 4), and the velocity would be base velocity multiplied by (ps->fd.forcepower / 8). Of course, you'd have to do some type-casting, but it would work. For things like speed, use the same kind of multiplier, but change the values for balance.
Then what prevents you from just constantly using lightning, push, etc? Having your concentration being affected by getting hit would only work if the player actually gets hit.

I guess my issue is that I don't see a point of having a seperate button for charging. When would you ever want to not charge?

wisealma
04-14-2006, 01:23 PM
Then what prevents you from just constantly using lightning, push, etc? Having your concentration being affected by getting hit would only work if the player actually gets hit.

I guess my issue is that I don't see a point of having a seperate button for charging. When would you ever want to not charge?


Charginig up a force power should come at a cost. Perhaps, the person is disabled (can't move) while they charge? Or perhaps they are severly hampered in some way. Also, the time it takes to charge is long enough to expose them to an attack.

wisealma
04-14-2006, 01:27 PM
I always liked to be able to push switches from a distance with the force.


This concept was key to making a JK game feel like the Star Wars universe. There is nothing like leveraging the force to interact with the environment (like throwing things at people, flipping switches, breaking into secret areas by smashing rocks etc)

I know many people would love to see this factor brought back into the game!

wisealma
04-14-2006, 01:31 PM
Then what prevents you from just constantly using lightning, push, etc? Having your concentration being affected by getting hit would only work if the player actually gets hit.

I guess my issue is that I don't see a point of having a seperate button for charging. When would you ever want to not charge?


There should be a reward for keeping your your force meeter full, and a cost for letting it drop at all (using it). For example, if it is full, you have the full sensitivy to the force, allowing you to use your lightsaber, dodge attacks, etc at your best ability). As you use the force at all, your force enhanced normal abilities (saber, dodging, speed etc) should diminish. This will naturally drive people to conserve the force until they really need it. Once they use it, they are not as able as they were when their force meeter was full. They become a little slower, don't dodge as well, less effective with their weapon (accuracy, hit power etc).

Thoughts?

wisealma
04-14-2006, 01:36 PM
How about starting with a pool of FP automatically then getting more by charging? Like starting with half your potential then needing charging the rest.

How about earning more force power during around by accomplishing certain things? Jedi's have to heal so many other people, for example (good deed) and sith have to kill so many people a certain way? (do something bad)

wisealma
04-14-2006, 01:43 PM
Also, as a hitch to balance things out a little: I can't be the only one to realize that the dark side powers nerf the light side. The only useful light power is absorb, and that is buggy. Therefore, any use of light side-oriented powers would come off as usual, but the dark side powers, due to the idea that cause a much greater more chaotic flow of energy to flow through the body, would actually do damage to the player who uses them. The greater the power of the dark side power, the health it would drain to use.

Why not make the light force powers neutral, and just create more offensively comparable force powers to those of the dark side?

razorace
04-14-2006, 05:27 PM
wisealma, please try to place your replies into one post. It's much easier to read that way.

Charginig up a force power should come at a cost. Perhaps, the person is disabled (can't move) while they charge? Or perhaps they are severly hampered in some way. Also, the time it takes to charge is long enough to expose them to an attack.
I think that would really slow down the combat and it's not movie realistic. Jedi never slow down in combat to "focus".

I know many people would love to see this factor brought back into the game!
When is it not in the game? Most of the switches I can think of are Force activatible.

There should be a reward for keeping your your force meeter full, and a cost for letting it drop at all (using it). For example, if it is full, you have the full sensitivy to the force, allowing you to use your lightsaber, dodge attacks, etc at your best ability). As you use the force at all, your force enhanced normal abilities (saber, dodging, speed etc) should diminish. This will naturally drive people to conserve the force until they really need it. Once they use it, they are not as able as they were when their force meeter was full. They become a little slower, don't dodge as well, less effective with their weapon (accuracy, hit power etc).
This sounds like the Fatigue Meter...just with a different name.

How about earning more force power during around by accomplishing certain things? Jedi's have to heal so many other people, for example (good deed) and sith have to kill so many people a certain way? (do something bad)
1. We never really see Jedi "heal" other people in major capacities in the movies.
2. This would totally bone both sides of the force in one on one duels.
3. We've already had the idea of having a Force power that's based on a player's combat ability (IE, good light sider parrying or good attacking for dark siders) and affects your Force regen rate.

Why not make the light force powers neutral, and just create more offensively comparable force powers to those of the dark side?
I wasn't a huge fan of the "other" offensive powers given to Light siders in the original Jedi Knight. I think light siders should have better sensing abilities or other advantages than offensive force powers.

JRHockney*
04-14-2006, 11:21 PM
Five in a row? I think thats a new record isn't it? Is that Alma69 from moviebattles 2? If so, good to see you. If not...um....still good to see you! LOL

Greiver
04-15-2006, 12:55 AM
going from the books jedi can heal each other and themselves healing others requires alot more concentration though

i agree with razor on the whole jedi not haveing offensive force powers because there more for letting things flow there coarse unlike the sith who bend the force to the will which is why you never see a jedi go bonsai!!!!!! catch some hand crafted lightning keeping in mind yoda did not make the lightning he threw at dooku he just redirected it

so heres an idea or an elaboration of someone elses if its already come up

concertration- instead of physicaly draining the player its a drain on the mind it would need a new bar thingy on the hud, concertration recharges all the time more so while stationary or meditating a rather slow recharge rate on all but the last which would be considerabley faster it decreases when a power is used instead of the FP bar, but there is a difference between it and the normal FP bar, its a case of the more you have the cheaper Force powers are to the point where you get around 5-15 secs of force spaming before you start to worry about force consumtion but thats not all when you concertration gauge starts to get low about 20% the screen starts to get blury not the the point where its impossible to hit someone with the pistol just more difficult as well as the fact that force powers get less effective as the gauge goes down

razorace
04-15-2006, 06:27 PM
So, the only reason why the concentration bar is seperate from the FP is because low concentration reduces aim and makes the screen blurry?

Greiver
04-15-2006, 09:27 PM
well sortof the bar part is really just there for teh n00bs who think that unlimited force power is cool untill you get the side effects from useing teh force too much

rgamble
04-19-2006, 08:20 AM
I've disabled certain powers, but due to what I've read here, I might try re-enabling them for now, see how it goes. But even sticking with the basics (push/pull, saber throw, jump etc), I've noticed that most of the time, I'm focusing on conserving my fp for saber combat rather than using fp to try and push someone. I don't know many people that don't max out force push/pull, so maybe in this case, a stronger rank might not influence your ability to counter it. I was thinking a chance to fail would be something to introduce. By that I mean making a certain window (rear quarter at rank 3, rear half at 2, rear three-quarters (outside field of view) at rank 1) where if someone hits them with that power, there's a much greater chance that it will work against that person (since they essentially aren't going to be able to pay as much attention to that particular opponent). Gunners etc probably shouldn't have nearly as much defense against someone they aren't facing, since they're concentrating on trying to shoot someone from a distance half the time.

Anyhow, the balancing etc I'll leave in your hands. The bottom line of what I was trying to say is that I've increased the FP recharge rate to 500 on my server, and I've found it to be a really interesting change. My opinion is admittedly biased, since I rarely use force powers when I'm dueling anyways. But I've found that the slower recharge rate made sitting down almost a crucial part, and having to pay attention to your surroundings that much more important. The increased recharge rate for sitting is greatly appreciated in this way, and is a lot like the meditation (I think) used by Qui-Gon during Ep 1. I've gotten to the point that unless it's a real nasty duel, I can usually take on a few opponents before I've used enough fp that I have to sit down and get my fp back, even with the increased recharge time.

Anyhow, that's it for my input on this matter at present. Gotta get ready for work, I'm afraid.

Have fun, everyone! Talk to you later.

ensiform
04-19-2006, 02:47 PM
I don't know many people that don't max out force push/pull

i use no push or pull in my force config :smash:

razorace
04-19-2006, 04:00 PM
Right now, players are vulnerable to push/pull when facing away from their opponents. As for setting the defensive arc to be based on force skill level. I'll have to think about it.

Finally, gunners are concentrating just as much as saber users. I don't think it would be fair to make the pull/push defense not work as well for gunners.

Grey Raven
04-19-2006, 09:58 PM
Then what prevents you from just constantly using lightning, push, etc?
Using any neutral or light-side power would halt the charging of the meter, while using dark-side powers would still allow you to charge, but would consume health for the duration you use them. The only way for a dark-sider to regain that health would be to drain it from someone else, which would require a whole separate set of strategies. The goal is to promote the idea that using the light-side is not overtly powerful, requiring a harder path to tred, but its more defensive qualities would promote self-preservation, while using the dark-side grants the player quick and easy access to great offensive power, but at the cost of self-preservation.


Having your concentration being affected by getting hit would only work if the player actually gets hit.
By "getting hit" I meant any time either DP or HP are deducted from your current playerstate. If your hit with a lightsaber, you lose charge. If your saber makes contact with another, you lose charge, very much like like the DP, but much less forgiving. The catch would be that instead of losing, say 5 to 10 points, you would lose 50% of your current total. This would be much more difficult to manage, especially since your DP regen would still drain your FP meter. The entire set-up would require some pretty fancy finger flying; if you intend to stay alive, of course ;-).

razorace
04-20-2006, 05:45 AM
mmm, does that mean that Dark Siders would die if they overused their force powers?

Vruki Salet
04-20-2006, 11:44 AM
They could get all mutated and ugly instead!

Grey Raven
04-20-2006, 08:40 PM
mmm, does that mean that Dark Siders would die if they overused their force powers?

No. A health bonus would be awarded to players who maintain a certain charge level for a certain period of time. Because the dark-side powers would allow the meter to keep charging, dark-siders would be able to use this to they're benefit. This, too, has a catch, though. The bonus would be global to all force-users, whether dark or light, so all players benefit. The trade-off that balances things out: light-siders lose no health for using the force, but are more vulnerable to losing force charge; dark-siders are less vulnerable to losing charge, but using the force consumes their health. The dark side would really depend on the health bonus to stay alive (sort of "feeding" off the Force, get it?), whereas the light side would not require it, as their powers are centered around defense and self-preservation. This whole idea plays on a few references from EPIII and EPVI.

They could get all mutated and ugly instead!

It's an idea, but would require alot of external (non-code-based) work that probably wouldn't be worth our while. If you're gonna make THAT big a change, you might as well just make a new game!

JRHockney*
04-20-2006, 09:04 PM
They could get all mutated and ugly instead!

We would need a skinner with alot of time on their hands to do that. They would have to make at least one extra skin for each character and then we would have to code it so they switch to that skin when this mutate thing happens....or something like that.

Maybe if it was just a mild mutation like gray skin and red eyes or something, it would take less time, but otherwise, it would take forever.

Vruki Salet
04-21-2006, 10:10 AM
I was just joking, even though it would be a funny/neat thing to have happen on rare occasions. I didn't really mean for someone to code this in and provide skins etc.

JRHockney*
04-21-2006, 04:00 PM
I was just joking, even though it would be a funny/neat thing to have happen on rare occasions. I didn't really mean for someone to code this in and provide skins etc.


Awww, just when I was starting to like the idea! LOL! :lol: Come on skinners! I have a project for you!!! :sign2:

314566
04-23-2006, 09:52 AM
The direction you're pressing could decide the direction you're "shot" to, so if you're pressing forward you do the SP speed+jump thing perhaps, while staying still does a very high one, without much direction.

This could have the side effect of making it harder to jump away from fights, since you'd be restricted to "low" jumps or having to charge it.

What about if tapping forward twice lets you do the speed, jump thing and just holding forward lets you jump forward like in the movies.

razorace
04-23-2006, 03:59 PM
We'd have to impliment a double taping system for that to work, but that is an idea.

Maxstate
04-26-2006, 06:03 PM
I dont know, personally I would like to see force powers like Push, Pull and Jump be more like they were in DF/MotS. The amount of time you hold your button is what determines the power of it, I just hate the instant, strong push, pushing away droids like Ob1 did in Ep1 is one thing, but pushing or pulling saber wielding force using Jedi and Sith is another thing.

I dont even know if it is possible mainly because I've never seen it done, maybe its just because most people just dont like my ideas :p. I dont see how it would affect balance or realism, having to charge up your push for it to work on better enemies.

Push 1:
Longer time to build up, cant push saber-wielders but you can repel thermal detonators. (Razor, what would it take to enable JO blaster fire pushing again?)

Push 2:
Ability to push away Jedi and Sith if charged for 2-3 seconds, depends.
Wont knock them over. It will knock over anyone wielding a gun, but only if theyre running/jumping. Knocking over gunners only works if you charge it for a bit.


Push 3:
Push 3 like we know it now for running non saber-wielders, saber wielders can only be pushed with a 3 second charged push and only if theyre running.

Charging should be either heard or seen somehow, to warn players of people trying to force whore.

razorace
04-26-2006, 10:05 PM
Blaster Bolt reflection is possible as far as I know.

RBitG
04-27-2006, 01:23 AM
Do you mean that we can actually use force deflection? or that you can enable it in Enh?

JRHockney*
04-27-2006, 01:52 AM
I dont know, personally I would like to see force powers like Push, Pull and Jump be more like they were in DF/MotS. The amount of time you hold your button is what determines the power of it, I just hate the instant, strong push, pushing away droids like Ob1 did in Ep1 is one thing, but pushing or pulling saber wielding force using Jedi and Sith is another thing.

I dont even know if it is possible mainly because I've never seen it done, maybe its just because most people just dont like my ideas :p. I dont see how it would affect balance or realism, having to charge up your push for it to work on better enemies.

Push 1:
Longer time to build up, cant push saber-wielders but you can repel thermal detonators. (Razor, what would it take to enable JO blaster fire pushing again?)

Push 2:
Ability to push away Jedi and Sith if charged for 2-3 seconds, depends.
Wont knock them over. It will knock over anyone wielding a gun, but only if theyre running/jumping. Knocking over gunners only works if you charge it for a bit.


Push 3:
Push 3 like we know it now for running non saber-wielders, saber wielders can only be pushed with a 3 second charged push and only if theyre running.

Charging should be either heard or seen somehow, to warn players of people trying to force whore.

This isn't a bad idea, although I do think there should be times when a saberist is vulnerable to an instant push (like an a heavy bounce with low DP). I also think with a charged push they should be able to lift their opponent off the ground like obi did with grevious.

Btw, Razor. I think I just thought of a way to kill lightning spam in saber combat. At the moment, all you have to do is heavybounce a person and tap lightning to make them fall over (and you only lose like 3 FP to do it). I would suggest making it so that they don't fall over until the lightning..um...er, has lost used at least 15 FP. Maybe make an exception for low DP people.

A person getting lightninged who is just about to attack should also not enter the lightning block pose (and be prohibited from swinging) until after the lightninger are lost about 5 or so DP

Sushi_CW
04-27-2006, 09:51 PM
Jon's ideas for lightning sound good to me. :)

razorace
04-27-2006, 10:15 PM
I think this would be a hassle to impliment and not feel right. Besides, I think the lightning spam issue isn't a problem anymore with the faster block animation speeds.

JRHockney*
04-28-2006, 01:55 AM
I think this would be a hassle to impliment and not feel right. Besides, I think the lightning spam issue isn't a problem anymore with the faster block animation speeds.

Not feel right? The way it use to be, lightning didn't knock people over period, and considering how fast you reach the usage of 10 or 15 FP, it wouldn't look that bad.

The faster animation speeds only help prevent using lightning to force your opponent into a block (sort of, it can still be used), but it doesnt stop the problem of getting cheap knockdowns with lightning when you opponent is in heavy bounce.

I'll probably be waaay off track here, but as far as implementation for this, wouldn't it just be something like this psuedo code wise?:

public lightningFallThing(){
for(int FP = (starting FP); FP >= (starting FP - 10 (or 15); FP--){
(opponent value) = (electricuted opponent value);
}
return (opponent falling backward value);
}
:p
I'm sure none of that makes sense with the way the game code actually is and its obviously not correct C syntex. But I hope thats the general idea. I need practice with loops anyways. LOL!

razorace
04-28-2006, 02:28 AM
The faster animation speeds only help prevent using lightning to force your opponent into a block (sort of, it can still be used), but it doesnt stop the problem of getting cheap knockdowns with lightning when you opponent is in heavy bounce.
Well, it's 3 FP for a guarnteed knockdown vs 1 FP for a kick. While you can miss with the kick, you're more likely to be close enough to get a good hit on the other player while they're on the ground.
public lightningFallThing(){
for(int FP = (starting FP); FP >= (starting FP - 10 (or 15); FP--){
(opponent value) = (electricuted opponent value);
}
return (opponent falling backward value);
}
The hard part is storing/updating the starting FP for the attack and not the actual logic check. :)

JRHockney*
04-28-2006, 02:42 AM
Well, it's 3 FP for a guarnteed knockdown vs 1 FP for a kick. While you can miss with the kick, you're more likely to be close enough to get a good hit on the other player while they're on the ground.

We'll see. I don't have a problem hitting people on the ground after that attack, personally, but I do have a problem hitting people with a kick because of my stupid ping. This means that other people with bad ping may have the same problem and resort to using lightning this way like I do. Stupid ping!

The hard part is storing/updating the starting FP for the attack and not the actual logic check.

Oh ok. I can't give you a BS equation for that! LOL! But does this mean my logic check was close!!!?? LOL :p

Maxstate
04-30-2006, 07:41 AM
I need to vent some of these ideas going through my head:

Grip 3 counter= If 2 darkside saberists are fighting and one is armed with grip 3, but the other doesnt have Push nor (duhhhh) absorb, he could use lightning to break free from the grip and damage his opponents FP.
Theory behind this: Force is being used on you, you and the guy you're fighting are both force sensitive, he opened up a connection of force with you by using grip right? You "overload his current" by using lightning :D

Also, lightning 3 should be able to be countered by a well-aimed saberthrow, keeping the force user from doing it again for a few seconds.
Why? Well imagine yourself, stretched out arms, frying your enemy with lightning. All of a sudden your enemy throws his saber at you which subsequently hits your fingers/hands, would hurt like a bitch.

One more thing, the falling animation you get when you're pushed is rather dull. There is a much more realistic one out there and I cant say I've seen it in OJP thus far, could be because I rarely use anything other than force jump :p People that've played MB will recognize it as the melee slap falling animation. When you're hit you make a backwards somersault of some sort and you land face down on your belly, I think I've seen this animation in single player so its not something thats MB-specific. I think if we could combine that animation with some vertical lift it would bring some more movie-realism into play. (Think of what Dooku did to Obi wan in Ep2.)
Maybe this is already in the game, but I haven't noticed it yet. :ears1:

razorace
04-30-2006, 03:38 PM
grip stuff
Good ideas.

lightning idea
mmm, and when would you do this without getting knockdowned in the first place?

One more thing, the falling animation you get when you're pushed is rather dull.
I'm using the SP system for the knockdowns now so the results are based on that. As a result, the knockdown animations are affected by how much force is put into the impact. To give the somersault impact that you're suggesting, you'd have to get hit REALLY hard. I'll look into it.

Maxstate
05-01-2006, 06:46 AM
I can look up the name of the animation for you, considering you taught me how to use modview why shouldnt I? heh. Give me a sec.

I dont know about getting knocked down, saberthrow while on the floor would be foolish.
Let me ponder this for a moment, I'll edit my post later.

Maxstate
05-01-2006, 06:56 AM
The board is freaking out, I cant edit, and when I try to post it gives me an error message and tells me I should contact the webmaster.

1:
Its : BOTH_DEATHBACKWARD2 , first one.

2:
Maybe if the victim holds his saberthrowing key while on the floor, he could negate the effects of the lightning as long as he would have DP. And he could slowly get up. Now comes an ethical question; would he be forced to throw his saber? :p

Kurgan
05-09-2006, 12:34 AM
I say bring back classic Force Powers from Jedi Knight and Mysteries of the Sith:

Blinding (unless they have seeing on, whites out their display for a time, more white the higher the level, targetted power, long range)
Seeing (the real deal!+map let's you see everyone everwhere, and lights up dark rooms)
Throw (toss world objects at the opponent, targetted power)
Chain Lightning (target opponent, bolts leap from person to person at close range, massive damage)
Far Sight (leave your body and spy around as a floating energy whisp, also useful for slowing your fall to avoid landing damage when timed properly)
Defense (weaker version of Absorb that's "always on" for people who don't want to have to worry about using force powers, since it takes up lots of force points)
Deadly Sight (look at your opponents from long range and they "begin to burn" before your eyes! aim with your body, time based power, like an invisible long range flame thrower)
Destruction (toss a massive ball of flaming dark force energy that does splash damage and physically pumels them if it hits too! can knock world objects around and blast people off cliffs)
Projection (drops a decoy of yourself that stands there and punches.. though probably would be better to have it do random actions or mirror your own actions, but it can't be harmed, people just walk right through it and seeing detects it, can't be destroyed but disappears over time, not affected by outside world)

Maxstate
05-09-2006, 04:55 AM
I say bring back classic Force Powers from Jedi Knight and Mysteries of the Sith:

Blinding (unless they have seeing on, whites out their display for a time, more white the higher the level, targetted power, long range)
Seeing (the real deal!+map let's you see everyone everwhere, and lights up dark rooms)
Throw (toss world objects at the opponent, targetted power)
Chain Lightning (target opponent, bolts leap from person to person at close range, massive damage)
Far Sight (leave your body and spy around as a floating energy whisp, also useful for slowing your fall to avoid landing damage when timed properly)
Defense (weaker version of Absorb that's "always on" for people who don't want to have to worry about using force powers, since it takes up lots of force points)
Deadly Sight (look at your opponents from long range and they "begin to burn" before your eyes! aim with your body, time based power, like an invisible long range flame thrower)
Destruction (toss a massive ball of flaming dark force energy that does splash damage and physically pumels them if it hits too! can knock world objects around and blast people off cliffs)
Projection (drops a decoy of yourself that stands there and punches.. though probably would be better to have it do random actions or mirror your own actions, but it can't be harmed, people just walk right through it and seeing detects it, can't be destroyed but disappears over time, not affected by outside world)


You wont believe how many times I've played Mysteries of the Sith just to see in how many ways and combinations of force powers I can kill off the stormies :) The throw power is one of the biggest things that Jedi Academy lacks, unlike JO where you could (in some way) manipulate your surroundings, JA has a very limited star wars feel to it. The animation for this power is already there, its called both_forcegrip3throw and its almost exactly what you see maul doing in EP1. There's also an npc called "rocks"... well you know what im after ;)

Maxstate
05-19-2006, 09:08 AM
How about making speed useful?

Make it like a sprint button; you hold it down to get a burst of speed or (depending on your level) BURSTS of speed. Level 3 should enable you to run for as long as you have FP.

It would surely make sense in CTF and siege games.

ensiform
05-19-2006, 02:52 PM
most CTFers use strafe though and i dont recall any standard siege maps that actually allow you to use speed.

Maxstate
05-19-2006, 02:55 PM
most CTFers use strafe though and i dont recall any standard siege maps that actually allow you to use speed.
It was just an example, it doesnt really matter.

I hate the current speed, its not usable anywhere, it costs too much to use and it doesnt pay off. Having control of defined bursts would be a lot better than being stuck in mode of force draining for a minute.

Just like you would hold "walk" , you hold the force speed button to run faster while you drain your force meter.

Darth Cariss
05-19-2006, 06:31 PM
That'd have to be a really fast 'run' if you wanted it to be better than Bunny Hopping. Well, unless you guys remove Bunny Hopping (like MB2 does)

Kurgan
05-19-2006, 09:15 PM
People on both sides on Siege Korriban have access to speed, and Defense has access to Dark Rage.

Defense has access to Dark Rage on Siege Desert.

That's it, otherwise you have to strafe-run.

Are you thinking like the "sprint" feature in Star Wars Battlefront II?

ensiform
05-19-2006, 10:14 PM
That'd have to be a really fast 'run' if you wanted it to be better than Bunny Hopping. Well, unless you guys remove Bunny Hopping (like MB2 does)

pls 2 not remove strafe jump and bunny, its part of ctf strategy :(

Darth Cariss
05-20-2006, 03:46 AM
It can be good for crossing large areas quickly... But if you think about it realistically, why does hopping like a mad man make you get places faster?

Personally I think a Sprint Function (Like BF2) would be great. It could probably just take Force Points too I assume.

It could always be a server-side option to stop Bunny Hopping?

JRHockney*
05-20-2006, 04:57 AM
It can be good for crossing large areas quickly... But if you think about it realistically, why does hopping like a mad man make you get places faster?


I'd have to agree there. Bunny hopping is effective, but very silly and could probably be replaced by something more realistic or at least cooler. The sprint from BF2 might be a good idea, or maybe make the roll so it is faster or more continuous into run and add sort of a longer jump flip like the ARC troopers have in moviebattles 2.

JRHockney*
06-22-2006, 02:46 PM
Something needs to be done about drain since it does nothing and maybe absorb (since its ratherly used) for the next build. I have a few possibilities.

1. Replace drain and absorb with sort of an automatic force block. The higher points you have at them, the more resistant you are to force.

2. same idea except make them about blaster resistance. Heck we could probably even have game modes that prohibit a certain level for both these ideas eventually. Since absorb isnt used very often, these ideas would kill two birds with one stone.

3. for drain, maybe make it so that when you use it on someone, they move really slowly. They would remain slow for a second or more after they got hit depending on how much FP was used on them. At least 10 FP should be use to make them slow for a second after. Higher points would either make them move slower, or use less fp. I thing absorb should just be automatic to some degree if nothing else.

4. Make drain cause the opponent to not be able to use force powers for a certain amount of time depending on how many points in it they have. Kind of like a dark cloud idea, but more generalizied.

5. Make drain block blasterbolts while in malee or else where like vader did to solo in episode 5. This idea could be combined with idea 2, but this would only work at the highest point level and only reduce DP drain by a bit.

comments? Preferences? Ideas?

Kurgan
06-22-2006, 10:11 PM
Something needs to be done about drain since it does nothing and maybe absorb (since its ratherly used) for the next build. I have a few possibilities.

1. Replace drain and absorb with sort of an automatic force block. The higher points you have at them, the more resistant you are to force.


Hmm, sort of like "Force Defense" from Mysteries of the Sith? Sounds very similar anyway.


2. same idea except make them about blaster resistance. Heck we could probably even have game modes that prohibit a certain level for both these ideas eventually. Since absorb isnt used very often, these ideas would kill two birds with one stone.

Well isn't damage defense what Protect already does? Granted, it could be tweaked or something I suppose, since it never stops all damage, only reduces it (which was how "shields" in Jedi Knight 1 worked, whereas the shields in JK2/JA now simply absorb damage until they are depleted; also the old Protection from JK1 would absorb all damage until the bubble was taken down, so it was a force shield basically, for reference).

I would caution about "not used very often" arguments though, because there are thousands of different players with many different styles. It's hard to pin down what "everybody" or "nobody" is doing I think. You can already ban individual force powers, but few admins do this well enough to be able to not create imbalances in the game (short of banning all force powers altogether, a better solution is limited force points, but few do this).


3. for drain, maybe make it so that when you use it on someone, they move really slowly.

Ah, Force Slow, this is interesting. It would certainly be annoying! But changing the speed of a player is certainly possible as it's already present in parts of the game (Rage recovery, force speed, etc).

4. Make drain cause the opponent to not be able to use force powers for a certain amount of time depending on how many points in it they have. Kind of like a dark cloud idea, but more generalizied.

Interesting. Again, something taken from gameplay, so it could work (Ysalamiri, Korriban crystals, etc)


5. Make drain block blasterbolts while in malee or else where like vader did to solo in episode 5. This idea could be combined with idea 2, but this would only work at the highest point level and only reduce DP drain by a bit.

comments? Preferences? Ideas?

That would be interesting. Would they have to target blaster bolts with their fists to block them (almost like having an "invsible lightsaber")? Or would they just automatically block all bolts while in Melee mode?

The real trick is balancing everything, the more gameplay changes the more of a challenge it can be. But some of these ideas sound cool.

razorace
06-22-2006, 11:05 PM
hmmm, call me crazy, but I think a blaster bolt deflection ability would be something that would occur automatically whenever a powerful force user is attacked without his saber out.

UDM
06-22-2006, 11:27 PM
I like it. Kind of like Vader in ESB, where Han shoots and Vader just pushes the bolt away

I think we should just agree on one thing: Jedi will and always shall be ub3r pwn4g3

Vruki Salet
06-23-2006, 12:28 AM
I think the thing vader did should be pretty special. Under normal circumstances a jedi should pull his saber out real fast to deflect a bolt coming, assuming that he has a saber available and it's off. At least that should happen if his force sense ability and/or fp are high enough.

UDM
06-23-2006, 01:55 AM
I read on some website that Vader had pushed the bolt away. Either that, or theoretically his armour was tough enough to absorb the bolt

It's possible, because the bolt is contained by a moving force field (again, read that somewhere). Therefore, if I exert enough energy, it should move the bolt away. Maybe this is a special type of force push that requires lots of force points?

MisterM
06-24-2006, 11:37 AM
Drain:
Maybe do it like in Sp - so you have to be near another player to drain life

Vruki Salet
06-24-2006, 01:05 PM
Drain:
Maybe do it like in Sp - so you have to be near another player to drain life

I agree with this.

Maxstate
06-28-2006, 06:07 PM
I agree with this.
Goddamnit, this is the third time Im writing this, IE keeps crashing.
Switched over to Firefox now.
Aniwai, I agree as well and I have a couple of suggestions too:

Jump: The flip should make you jump higher, the "leap" should make you jump further horizontally.

Speed: SWBF2 sprint, "hold-to-use" with an x amount of fp drain per second. Lets call it fps for the time being.

Absorb: Make it "hold-to-use" and have it make your player hold out his hand push or lightning style. Now, any hostile powers that hit you in the small arc infront of your hand will be neutralised and they should add to your FP.
The power should also drain an X amount of FPS for you to restrict spam and emulate the state of deep concentration for jedi.

Grip should become Force manipulate.
I've had 2 ideas, both require a small bit of coding:

First is to get random objects spawned randomly across a map, and make grip affect them like it would an npc so that you can pick up the objects.
You could use Force push to fling the objects at your opponent, damaging them.

Other idea is to make npcs and bots get affected by other npcs and bots that hit them at an accelerated rate, example: Group of stormies, I pick one up, lift him off the ground and push him at his mates, making them fall over and get damaged.

I've got more ofcourse, lets see how these work out.

Beast Boy
06-29-2006, 05:11 PM
Grip should become Force manipulate.
I've had 2 ideas, both require a small bit of coding:

First is to get random objects spawned randomly across a map, and make grip affect them like it would an npc so that you can pick up the objects.
You could use Force push to fling the objects at your opponent, damaging them.

Other idea is to make npcs and bots get affected by other npcs and bots that hit them at an accelerated rate, example: Group of stormies, I pick one up, lift him off the ground and push him at his mates, making them fall over and get damaged.

I've got more ofcourse, lets see how these work out.

That's a cool idea.

Sushi_CW
06-29-2006, 09:23 PM
I like the idea of Absorb being a hold-down power, or maybe toggleable on-of without a huge initial FP drain (just a constant drain while it's on). Likewise for Protect and Rage: One to increase your defense, the other your offense, costing you extra FP while active without completely hosing your FP meter in one use. Drain could be retooled into a "slow", I think that would work well.

JRHockney*
08-08-2006, 04:18 AM
When I was fighting jack the other night, I realised that if someone has one forcepower point higher than you for a power such as push or pull, they have full access to using it on you whenever they want. This is very spammable and needs to change in my opinion. If anything it should work like this using push as an example:
no levels higher, only access to back pushes at low DP, anyjumps at low DP, and running swings at low DP
1 level higher = only can push jumps at any level of DP and maybe running swings
2 levels higher = can push jumps and running at any level of DP.
3 levels higher = full access.

Sushi_CW
08-08-2006, 08:26 PM
Spammable, but easily preventable. Just modify your force settings. :)

Maxstate
08-08-2006, 08:30 PM
Spammable, but easily preventable. Just modify your force settings. :)

I don't think everyone with a server should be arsed to go bugging around with settings everytime OJP releases something new. It's already complex enough to get the hang of teh saber system.

razorace
08-08-2006, 09:05 PM
hmm, I think what it does is make the power of the push be based on the the difference between the powers. The idea being that a more powerful force user would be able to overpower a weaker user of the Force.

JRHockney*
08-08-2006, 10:10 PM
hmm, I think what it does is make the power of the push be based on the the difference between the powers. The idea being that a more powerful force user would be able to overpower a weaker user of the Force.

yeah, but all you have to do to spam somebody is make sure you have a point higher on something, and when they adjust to stop the spamming, you just find another power to be more powerful and spam again. Hopefully, the idea I have put above will prevent that. OJP should always remain a "no spam zone" in my opinion and this is an obvious way to spam.

The best thing about beta testing with Jack is that he spams the heck out of everything he suspects is spammable until he is proven wrong or right. He was definitely right in this case.

Sushi_CW
08-08-2006, 10:42 PM
What I meant was that the player can simply adjust his force settings to max out push and pull. If you want to be immune to those powers, you pay the price, and that works for me. That's how it already works in base JA, and I think it's a good way to go.

The only "spam" moves we need to worry about are the ones without a good counter. In this case, the counter is very easy: adjust your force powers and no need to worry about it anymore.

JRHockney*
08-08-2006, 11:08 PM
What I meant was that the player can simply adjust his force settings to max out push and pull. If you want to be immune to those powers, you pay the price, and that works for me. That's how it already works in base JA, and I think it's a good way to go.

The only "spam" moves we need to worry about are the ones without a good counter. In this case, the counter is very easy: adjust your force powers and no need to worry about it anymore.

As long as you can do it without dying for it to take effect, otherwise this is still going to be spammable as heck. Even if you can do that. your still likely to get pushed or what not into a pit before you can fix it. I dont know how base players live with that, and ours would be worse since ours knocks people down. Coming from MB2, that would drive me insane.

It would be like this:
find the force power they dont have maxed out and push them, pull them, lightning them or grip them into a pit. When they adjust, find another that they dont have and repeat. When they have them all take advantage of what they dont have. Losing a fight? Push or what ever else he doesn't have full until he's dead.

I'm sorry but this would make playing almost intolerable for me personally, even if its not used much, I'd know its possible. And if it is used, I dont want to have to go into each game with all the pushing abilities maxed out. I'm sorry but think we should think more along the lines of MB2 when balancing this rather than base. Like Razor has said before, OJP does not allow spam if it can help it[/end paraphrase].

razorace
08-09-2006, 12:59 AM
Hocky, you make a good point. Just keep bugging me about it and we'll have to give that a shot.

JRHockney*
08-09-2006, 01:54 AM
Hocky, you make a good point. Just keep bugging me about it and we'll have to give that a shot.

No problem. :stick: LOL

Greiver
08-09-2006, 04:55 AM
with force drain you should make it so you have to be in physical contact with the person your draining for example you grab em by th throght lift em off the ground and suck the life out of emand the different lvls increase the range from point blank to around 2 metres which is about 3 yards i think

razorace
08-09-2006, 12:47 PM
I'll admit that I don't think drain is a movie-realistic move, even if it's cool to do ingame.

Kurgan
08-10-2006, 09:55 AM
It might help explain how Palpatine was able to beat those Jedi so easily in Episode III. ;)

UDM
08-10-2006, 01:21 PM
Palpatine's a n00b

Maxstate
08-10-2006, 09:37 PM
Palpatine's a n00b
They really made a faggot out of Mace, he should've stabbed him when he had the chance.

razorace
08-25-2006, 02:23 AM
Hocky has brought up a good issue. We really need to come up with a standard way of handling force power level differences, especially if we want to have a experience system.

Here's what Hocky suggested...
only access to back pushes at low DP, anyjumps at low DP, and running swings at low DP
1 level higher = only can push jumps at any level of DP and maybe running swings
2 levels higher = can push jumps and running at any level of DP.
3 levels higher = full access.
Maybe this should apply to all of the Force Powers?

Maxstate
10-18-2006, 08:24 AM
Enable more animations for when you get pushed over.
Currently we only have one in which it seems that the jedi or gunner in question is getting taken down from behind instead of pushed over. There are a lot of animations in the .cfg that are great for pushed-over anims like the one where the person makes a backflip and lands on his belly or the death one where he spins around before he falls down.

razorace
10-18-2006, 06:55 PM
Are you referring to getting pushed down from the forward or backwards direction?

Maxstate
10-18-2006, 06:56 PM
Are you referring to getting pushed down from the forward or backwards direction?
Forwards.

For me you just kinda topple over while clutching your saber or gun.

Maxstate
11-12-2006, 12:06 PM
Well as I haven't received an answer I'll post something else:
Maybe Force Drain should grant the user some of the force powers of the targeted person if some demands are met?

For example if I have mind trick and you have drain, you can get mindtrick 1 for a set amount of time from me if you drain me (ofcourse this would be balanced..)?

razorace
11-12-2006, 07:22 PM
That would be possible. But I think Drain is going bye-bye simply because it's not movie realistic.

JRHockney*
11-12-2006, 11:18 PM
Well, it might not be realistic in terms of actual movie reference, but it is a pretty good idea and its really not that far fetched. Windu was supposedly able to defeat "reflecting" palpatine's rage back at him. There might be something in the books somewhere about doing the same thing with force powers. Anyone know the books well enough? :p

Maxstate
11-13-2006, 03:54 AM
Well, it might not be realistic in terms of actual movie reference, but it is a pretty good idea and its really not that far fetched. Windu was supposedly able to defeat "reflecting" palpatine's rage back at him. There might be something in the books somewhere about doing the same thing with force powers. Anyone know the books well enough? :p
We can always pull a EU and CREATE a book, even if it's just one sentence that says that "Force Drain BLALLABLBA" :D

Edit: If it's not clear, I'm just joking.

As far as I'm concerned I only want to see heal and mindtrick come back to play and see the other force powers get tweaked a bit.
But if you want to implement the other powers like Rage I might have other ideas for ya if you want.
Rage for example could work like the Dark Rage Boon thingy you can pick up on the field:
-Either give you every Dark Force power and the ability to use level 3 for a while.
-Or drain 50-70 FP and enable you to use any Force Powers you want without draining FP.