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lonegungirl
03-11-2006, 06:09 AM
...only a year or so after everyone else on the planet. I suppose any KOTOR is better than none, but I thought this was definitely a step down from KOTOR 1. I was surprised at all the reviews stating that the characters were so much better defined in 2, because I could barely find 1 new branch of conversation per person throughout the whole game. I kept thinking that Atton was going to say something different after his initial revelations/Jedi training, but nothing! Not even after the cutscene where he asked Bao Dur about his chances! Just the same paazak lessons!

I also don't know if there's a preferred order to do the planets--I just seemed to go wherever it seemed logical, and ended up getting some of the team members (Disciple) so late in the game, I literally never had an opportunity to talk to him again once back on the ship. There were no incidences that I remember (with the exception of Atton) where people came up to the party and initiated side quests that took you back to different planets for more party member backstory as there was in KOTOR 1, but maybe I just didn't unlock them properly.

The ending was also very disappointing, and made me think that perhaps I had just skipped a lot of content, as the whole assassination droid subplot...or pretty much any droid subplot...never came to fruition. After reading around the internet, however, it looks like they were just aborted.

I could not believe that they were not going to give us any dialog with the characters before the final sequence, or after. The whole thing winds down with just painfully repetitive solo corridor fighting from the landing on Malachor to the final fights. The irking part is knowing that the Force will compell me to play the game several more times to see the different gender/side variations, only to have to go through that whole end gauntlet to see the finish each time.

Ultimately, I thought this was a very promising first half of a game, which plummeted into suckage in the last third. It just seems wrong that out of all the characters, I still felt most connected with Carth, when he gives you the message for Revan (snif.)

[thanks for letting me vent. No one in the Real World could hope to understand my frustration with this game.]

Ztalker
03-11-2006, 09:10 AM
Most of the cool side-quest have been erased from the game.
Maybe the term 'droid planet' and 'HK factory' ring a bell?
Anyways, on the droid planet, Bao-Dur's story would actually 'start' and end dramatically. And the droid factory is a side story for HK 47 to destroy the HK 50's.

Also, Atton would have an interesting side story as well. Let's just say he encounters 'Sleeps with Vibroblades' once more..

You can find descriptions of the hidden content here:
http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=161361

To conclude:
YOu are right. There was much stuff cut out, which makes the game quit...incomplete.

PS: Some teams are attempting to restore the cut content. I don't know the sites, but maybe someone else could post?

Vibro
03-11-2006, 09:13 AM
The first play through of the game is definitely the worst. You are right, there are plenty of disappointements within the game, the ending is also disappointing. To get more dialogue options you need to gain influence with those characters, try the Influence Guide, written by Achilles, which can be found here: http://lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=153012&highlight=influence+guide

I've never played as female so I have no idea if the Disciple's in the same place as he is as a male PC (Jedi Ruins), if so, go to the ruins and then fight your way through the Laigreks to reach him. You don't have to do the Planets in any particular order.

If you're playing as DS do not finish Dantooine first, Vrook is a very difficult opponent (probably the most difficult in the game), so I don't advise you trying to complete Dantooine first, but that doesn't mean you can't find the Disciple

Suikotsu
03-11-2006, 02:10 PM
www.team-gizka.org, http://forums.team-gizka.org all the info you need on cut content.

The Distorted
03-11-2006, 05:46 PM
lonegungirl, just to let you know - ALOT of people are on your side. You are undoubtedly completely justified in the posting of this thread, and in the eyes of many fans of this series.
We got screwed, cos they knew we'd buy it - and then it'd be too late. They didn't care that we'd be getting an incomplete game what-so-ever.

Ayway, cheers :cheers:

Kitty Kitty
03-11-2006, 06:50 PM
Well I wouldn't go quite that far. Game developers know damn well that pissing off their fan base is a really bad idea.

What's far more likely is that the game simply ran too far over budget / time constraints. If you know much about software development, there's a lot going on before a game ends up at your local wal-mart.

Somewhere amidst the rest, there's some person who says, "Ok... I like this idea, you can spend $ X and you have Y months to get it done. Go get your team together and let's do this."

Now also bear in mind that with a game, you usually have several companies all coming together to create your finished product. There's a development house with a team of people actually doing the coding, then you'll have a publisher who deals with things like advertising, packaging and so on, and then a distributor who takes care of sending them all over the place when they're done and so on.

Cut content to the degree we see in TSL actually backs up the idea that the game developers care a great deal in giving us a product we'll be pleased with, else they'd never have made any content to be cut in the first place. The fact that it's cut rather than entirely absent means it got approved at some point, but due to again probably budget and time constraints, it had to be scrapped in order to meet costs and deadlines.

Meh, sorry for the speech, I just get kinda cranky when everyone starts grabbing pitchforks and acting like the people writing the games don't give a damn if their fans enjoy them. That's so far from reality it's not even funny, and even though I happen to very much agree that there was a LOT about TSL that was very dissapointing, I still can't in good concience see the lynch mob on the march and not say anything.

In conclusion then, if you simply must point wagging fingers and blame someone, and absolutely can't bring yourself to accept the simple truth that quite often a project's initial goals are simply too lofty to attain by the final shipping date, then blame the big CEOs and the people who were responsible for how much time and money was allocated to the people who actually drew and coded and scripted and built the game(s). ;)

Cheers,
-Kitty

Point Man
03-11-2006, 11:50 PM
We all know exactly how you feel; we were all there. But, as Vibro said, the first playthrough is the worst. On subsequent times through you will know what the ending will be like, so you can concentrate on gleaning little details that you missed before. There is a lot to pick up on later. I think one big reason for the disappointed feeling we all got from TSL is that KOTOR was sooo good that it gave us unrealistically lofty expectations for the sequel. So let's all set our expectations low for K3, so it can be a pleasant surprise for us. :)

lord ignarn
03-12-2006, 06:55 AM
Donīt worry too much lonegungirl, after all team-gizka itīs doing a good work, and there are lots of good mods to enhance the game.

And, yes, the Disciple is allways there doesnīt matter the gender of the PC for that.

The Distorted
03-12-2006, 07:37 AM
Well I wouldn't go quite that far. Game developers know damn well that pissing off their fan base is a really bad idea.

What's far more likely is that the game simply ran too far over budget / time constraints. If you know much about software development, there's a lot going on before a game ends up at your local wal-mart.

Somewhere amidst the rest, there's some person who says, "Ok... I like this idea, you can spend $ X and you have Y months to get it done. Go get your team together and let's do this."

Now also bear in mind that with a game, you usually have several companies all coming together to create your finished product. There's a development house with a team of people actually doing the coding, then you'll have a publisher who deals with things like advertising, packaging and so on, and then a distributor who takes care of sending them all over the place when they're done and so on.

Cut content to the degree we see in TSL actually backs up the idea that the game developers care a great deal in giving us a product we'll be pleased with, else they'd never have made any content to be cut in the first place. The fact that it's cut rather than entirely absent means it got approved at some point, but due to again probably budget and time constraints, it had to be scrapped in order to meet costs and deadlines.

Meh, sorry for the speech, I just get kinda cranky when everyone starts grabbing pitchforks and acting like the people writing the games don't give a damn if their fans enjoy them. That's so far from reality it's not even funny, and even though I happen to very much agree that there was a LOT about TSL that was very dissapointing, I still can't in good concience see the lynch mob on the march and not say anything.

In conclusion then, if you simply must point wagging fingers and blame someone, and absolutely can't bring yourself to accept the simple truth that quite often a project's initial goals are simply too lofty to attain by the final shipping date, then blame the big CEOs and the people who were responsible for how much time and money was allocated to the people who actually drew and coded and scripted and built the game(s). ;)

Cheers,
-Kitty

:indif:

:bored:

Sorry to inform you - but that post was ultimately pointless.
The THEY I was referring to - I thought - was quite obviously not pointed at the actual game developers/Obsidian at all. Seriously, do you understand what I was getting at now?
Look, I'll make it easier on you - here ya' go:

;) :nod: :thumbsup: :thumbs1:

PS Where exactly are the pitchforks, eh? er, yeah...feel the anger/resentment/drama :Ž:
Can't someone voice their disagreement with something anymore these days - without people feeling inclined to label them as going overboard, everytime? Oh no, you can't express dissapointment - that means you're on the rampage.

All I said to lonegungirl was, "You are undoubtedly completely justified in the posting of this thread". Yeah man, woah - watch it. He's gonna blow any second, now. Talk about taking what I said and warping/spinning it.

Why are you trying to defend it - at all? We did get a second-rate deal y'know. I'm not blowing this out of proportion - I think it's just quite obvious myself. I mean - fair enough if we were to be informed prior to the purchase of the game - but we weren't. And that was deliberate. It's the principle - seriously, where are yours?

Oh, here ya go ;)
Just to make you feel at home y'know

;)

RedHawke
03-12-2006, 08:05 AM
Sorry to inform you - but that post was ultimately pointless.
Yours is actually no different...

I hate to break it to you, but Kitty was not referring to you at all in her post, she was posting in general. Her logic got under your skin methinks. ;)

stoffe
03-12-2006, 08:54 AM
Why are you trying to defend it - at all? We did get a second-rate deal y'know. I'm not blowing this out of proportion - I think it's just quite obvious myself. I mean - fair enough if we were to be informed prior to the purchase of the game - but we weren't. And that was deliberate.

I would beg to differ, K2:TSL is one of the better games I have bought in recent years. I've even bought it twice (since I managed to scratch my original CD), hardly something I would do if I concidered the game a second-rate deal.

Just because a game does not live up to (in retrospect) unrealistically high expectations brought about by marketing hype, it does not mean the game is bad in itself.

Yes, the game could have been better, but the same can be said of pretty much any game released thus far. Its numerous shortcomings, when weighed against what the game does well, does not change the fact that it over all was a good game that was well worth buying and playing numerous times, in my opinion.

Since playing TSL, I haven't been able to replay the original KotOR. While I loved the first game and it did have a somewhat more coherent story throughout, leaving less to the imagination of the player, it feels so... primitive... in a way when you have gotten used to TSL. :)

* * *

Speaking in general and not really refering to what has been said in this thread, complaints and expressed disappointment is just as legitimate as the praise of those who likes a product.

What I dislike is when the complaining goes overboard and assumes the pitchfork-toting pack mentality mentioned above, since it can have undesired consequences. Deus Ex:Invisible War was an excellent example of this, in my opinion. In itself it wasn't a bad game at all, well worth the money. However, since it didn't reach the high standard set by its predecessor the DX fans went on an Internet rampage painting the game as the worst P.O.S ever being pushed onto the market whenever given the chance.

The screams of that mob eventually lead to Ion Storm abandoning all contact with the community and putting further development of games in that series on hold indefinitely.

Not something I would like to see happen with KotOR due to a loud minority going militant over their disappointment with the game. :)

In short, complaints and praise are equally legitimate as long as it's kept in perspective, in my opinion. :)

stoffe
03-12-2006, 09:44 AM
I was surprised at all the reviews stating that the characters were so much better defined in 2, because I could barely find 1 new branch of conversation per person throughout the whole game. I kept thinking that Atton was going to say something different after his initial revelations/Jedi training, but nothing!


The main difference between KotOR and TSL In that respect seems to be that KotOR hacked up the party member conversations in digestible chunks, where you had to level up before being able to talk with them about something new. This way their conversation options/topics where spread out throughout the game.

In TSL, on the other hand, you can (usually) blow through their entire conversation tree directly (if you have enough influence, which usually isn't that hard to get) and explore all conversation topics with them the first time you get a chance to talk to them.

So, while KotOR doesn't necessarily have more conversation with your party members it's more spread out, making it last longer. :)

I'll agree it was a bit disappoinging that your conversation options with your party members come to a screeching halt when you have trained them. That would have potential for interesting things to talk about.



Not even after the cutscene where he asked Bao Dur about his chances! Just the same paazak lessons!


The Exile wouldn't really know anything about that though, unless she's omniscient as to what goes on aboard the Ebon Hawk, like Kreia. :)



I also don't know if there's a preferred order to do the planets--I just seemed to go wherever it seemed logical, and ended up getting some of the team members (Disciple) so late in the game, I literally never had an opportunity to talk to him again once back on the ship.


I agree that freedom of choice isn't always only for the best. In this case you can miss out on sizable chunks of game content by visiting planets in the "wrong" sequence, with nothing in the game really hinting at what way would be the best to go about it.

Personally, after leaving Telos, I prefer to do things this way:

Head to Dantooine, go straight to the crystal cave and pick up your bonded lightsaber crystal. Skip the rest of the planet for now, head back to the Ebon Hawk and pick up Visas.


Head to Nar Shaddaa, do the whole planet and pick up Mira (or Hanharr I suppose if you are Evil).


Head back to Dantooine, pick up Disciple (if the Exile is female and you haven't hacked the game to let you choose) and do the rest of the planet.


Head to Onderon/Dxun, do the whole moon and city, pick up Candalore.


Head to Korriban, academy first, then the secret tomb.


Head back to Onderon and finish up the business there.


Head back to Dantooine to meet with the Jedi Masters (unless you are vengeful or evil and killed them already).


The downhill railroad to the end... :roleyess:


This way you get most of your party and important items (lightsaber, bonded crystal) fairly early in the game giving you plenty of opportunity to see party member interjections in conversations and to influence them. :)



There were no incidences that I remember (with the exception of Atton) where people came up to the party and initiated side quests that took you back to different planets for more party member backstory as there was in KOTOR 1, but maybe I just didn't unlock them properly.


While the landing pad welcoming committee was a bit too predictable in KotOR for my taste, I agree it would have been nice to have some personal issues of your party members to distract you from your purpose for a while.

In TSL this kind of fleshing out party member personality was done with the numerous Ebon Hawk cutscenes instead, though they were of course a lot less interactive than the side quests of KotOR. The party members mind their own affairs and involve their leader a lot less than Revan's gang did. It would have been nice to have both. :)

At least it made the Ebon Hawk feel a bit more alive than the party member storage facility it was for the most part in KotOR. :)



The ending was also very disappointing, and made me think that perhaps I had just skipped a lot of content, as the whole assassination droid subplot...or pretty much any droid subplot...never came to fruition. After reading around the internet, however, it looks like they were just aborted.

I could not believe that they were not going to give us any dialog with the characters before the final sequence, or after. The whole thing winds down with just painfully repetitive solo corridor fighting from the landing on Malachor to the final fights.


Indeed, the ending (from after the Jedi meeting at Dantooine) was by far the most unspectacular part of the game, where it became most obvious that the developers where running out of time. The transition between the Telos Academy and Citadel Station was very abrupt, as was the transition from the Ravager to Malachor. The fact that Visas conversation options didn't change at all after her Meditation chamber scene, or the showdown with Nihilus, was also very disappointing.

And Malachor was, aside from the confrontations with Sion and Traya, rather bland. Just a FPSeque running & gunning solo trek towards the end. I liked the showndowns with Sion and Traya though, they were a lot more talkative with interesting things to say than the Malak vs. Revan showdown was.

(And from seeing the scraps left behind from the unfinished endings that were planned at some point I am somewhat ambivalent if it was a good thing they didn't follow through with that or not. It would have fleshed out the ending a lot more, but it would also feel like a huge anticlimax for it to end that way.)

While the ending was indeed a bit disappointing, I think the rest of the game compensated for that though.



The irking part is knowing that the Force will compell me to play the game several more times to see the different gender/side variations, only to have to go through that whole end gauntlet to see the finish each time.


When replaying, I'd suggest modding the game to allow you to bring (some) party members on Malachor. It does make that part a little more fun, and Mandalore has some pretty interesting things to say about the planet when you talk to him about it while on the surface. (Apparently it wasn't meant to be a solo trip at some point in development.)



[thanks for letting me vent. No one in the Real World could hope to understand my frustration with this game.]

See the good sides of the game and try to ignore the bad ones as much as possible. It makes for a much more enjoyable and fun experience. :)

When replaying (if you have the PC version) I'd also suggest having a look at the various 3rd party mods released for the game and install a few of the better ones. It can make the experience richer and make up for some of the shortcomings of the game.

The Distorted
03-12-2006, 09:54 AM
Yours is actually no different...

I hate to break it to you, but Kitty was not referring to you at all in her post, she was posting in general. Her logic got under your skin methinks. ;)

So generalising is now referred to as "logic"?

OK - if you say so

That, as far as I'm concerned, included my post. I was proving that this was irrelevant, as far as this thread goes, because then where did her inspiration come from? lonegungirl's post, no less - which I think (as I've already said) is justified. It was (as she said) just a post to vent in. Big deal. Then this sudden leap to a broad generalisation...where did that come from?
I was using my post to illustrate how this stereotyping was pointless. Seriously, if she wasn't referring to the thread then - why post in it at all? It just makes no sense. If the content of that post wasn't "inspired" from this thread, then why post it? I don't see anyway in this thread a "pitchfork mob mentality" so where's the relevance, eh?

Look:

Originally Posted by Kitty Kitty
Well I wouldn't go quite that far.

---

If that's not a referral to at least something in this thread, then what the hell is it?

So, dude, no - your post is irrelevant too.

Yes - her post got under my skin, so what? I never tried to deny that? What are you on about, man?

Just because I'm arguing from a certain point of view doesn't necessarily mean that I'm angry. In this case, the general tone of the argument insulted my principles more-so, so that's why I spoke out. Don't confuse steadfastness with outrage. You chose to equate it that way, not the way it was intended.

Plus, all this patronising smilie wink, wink, stuff is just absurd. It just reeks of "superiority complex". I know its seeking a reaction through appearing "above it all" but, really, c'mon - it just reveals a pitiful side more than anything...
I've seen it many times within this board, and much by some of the moderators. Need I say more? No, I didn't think so...

They are called emoticons/smiles. They are only patronising if your mind makes them so. While you, yourself do not have to use them, realise that others can and will use them, they convey sometimes what words cannot. You are free to think of them what you will but you do need to get used to them. -RH

The Distorted
03-12-2006, 10:12 AM
I would beg to differ, K2:TSL is one of the better games I have bought in recent years. I've even bought it twice (since I managed to scratch my original CD), hardly something I would do if I concidered the game a second-rate deal.

Just because a game does not live up to (in retrospect) unrealistically high expectations brought about by marketing hype, it does not mean the game is bad in itself.

Yes, the game could have been better, but the same can be said of pretty much any game released thus far. Its numerous shortcomings, when weighed against what the game does well, does not change the fact that it over all was a good game that was well worth buying and playing numerous times, in my opinion.

Yes - it is still a good game (very good in fact). But don't you feel cheated in its incompleteness - the principle I mean. This was never mentioned as we bought it. It was deliberately released earlier than originally planned, and for the sake of quick-profit over customer satisfaction. How do we know this won't happen again? We didn't receive what we were lead to believe we were getting - a complete game, as originally intended and promised. It was misleading, that's all. Paying for what you think you're receiving, and actually getting something else, are two different things entirely.

God, look - it really seems like I'm whining now, but I'm no more "passionate" about it then I was when I first posted in this thread, or even before that. It's just this lack of understanding at what I'm trying to get at is what is keeping me posting...
I'm not asking for people to agree with this perspective, only understand, acknowledge and respect it (I'm not saying none of these have been achieved at all, but I feel just not coherently enough so as to let my side of the argument die or stop - in an attempt to communicate this point of view thoroughly enough so it's considered as a "legitimate" angle, that's all).

Char Ell
03-12-2006, 12:54 PM
I hate to break it to you, but Kitty was not referring to you at all in her post, she was posting in general. Her logic got under your skin methinks.The way I read the thread, Kitty Kitty's post (#6) was in response to The Distorted's previous post (#5). She disagreed with The Distorted's view that the game was purposefully released incomplete because they knew the fans would buy the game whether it was complete or not. I believe they refers to LucasArts but am not 100% sure. But yeah, sure does seem like her views really irritated The Distorted.
Sorry to inform you - but that post was ultimately pointless.I must disagree. I thought Kitty Kitty's post made some very specific points about the process by which games are developed. I checked out Kitty Kitty's profile and went to her website. She seems to be quite experienced with the computer world and gaming and I personally thought she made some very astute comments. But while I believe her comments about computer game development in general were quite on the mark I also think she may not be fully aware of TSL's development timeline and history.

To briefly rehash what has been rehashed so many times before in other forum threads:
- TSL was originally announced with a 2005 February release date at E3 2004.
- Sometime after 2004 May TSL for Xbox got pushed up to a 2004 December release date. TSL for PC was still slated for Feb. 2005. So with 4-6 months warning (my best guess) two months of TSL's development timeline was chopped off.

I like Achilles' concept <link> (http://www.lucasforums.com/showpost.php?p=2035609&postcount=29) of how this decision may have occurred:
LA - "Hey, OE. How's it going?"

OE - "Pretty good. You?"

LA - "Good. Good. Hey, just got out of a board meeting and the Directors are a little concerned that we might not hit our profitability numbers for the quarter if we don't have a strong Christmas. I know we originally agreed on February, but do you think you could take a look at some things and tell us if a December release is even possible"

OE - "Err...well...I don't know. I suppose we could juggle some resources and get you the xbox version by then, but there's no way we could have the PC version finished in time. We'll have to cut some of the stuff we originally sent over for approval and we might not have time to test it as much as we'd like, but yeah we could probably do it. I have to tell you, I'm a little concerned about the quality".

LA - "Well if you can't do it, you can't do it, but if you can it would really mean a lot to us. The stuff you've demoed for us so far has been really good. Do you really think quality is at risk?"

OE - "Without testing, there's no way to know for sure. We could probably get through some very basic testing, but there's no way we could really hammer on it the way we'd like to".

LA - "Ok. We're willing to cut some corners to get this game out early. If you think it's total crap we won't move forward. I know you wanted to do more with this, but we'd rather get a good game out by Christmas than a great game out when the credit card bills start coming and our audience is pinching pennies to recover".

OE - "Alright, we'll get you the best game we can ASAP"

LA - "Hey, thanks, we really appreciate it"

That's the type of thing that happens in business...especially when one of the parties is an important player recovering from a major downsizing in a highly competitive market right before the most profitable period of the entire fiscal year.
To wit, I believe Kitty Kitty's final comment is applicable in TSL's case.... blame the big CEOs and the people who were responsible for how much time and money was allocated to the people who actually drew and coded and scripted and built the game(s). And this I think is really where your beef lies, that LucasArts decided to release a game that didn't meet yours or my expectations of what it should have been because LA would make more money from the game by releasing it during the US holiday season than by the originally planned 2005 Feb. timeframe. It's an often times unfortunate fact of the capitalistic society that we live in that corners are cut to deliver products in order to achieve profitability goals. I'm sure you know this happens with most everything in our society (think of drug testing, the Ford Pinto).
Plus, all this patronising smilie wink, wink, stuff is just absurd. It just reeks of "superiority complex". I know its seeking a reaction through appearing "above it all" but, really, c'mon - it just reveals a pitiful side more than anything...
I've seen it many times within this board, and much by some of the moderators. Need I say more? No, I didn't think so... Interesting. You consider this type of emoting as patronizing? I interpret it more as a way to take some of the edge off of statements that are in opposition to statements made by other thread participants. To me it's like saying, "Hey man, I don't agree with you but it's not personal."

Achilles
03-12-2006, 01:24 PM
Great! We just get Kitty Kitty back and now Distorted is trying to chase her off again...:D

@Distorted: If all you're really after is some acknowledgement that your perspective is being heard, then you should take comfort in knowing that it appears to be coming across loud and clear.

As with any opinion, it is your own, and you're welcome to it. It seems that you feel everyone should see it your way (you state this quite plainly in post #9) and that just isn't going to happen. Perhaps with some more facts and well-developed arguements, you might be able to persuade some people to your side (which appears to be your intention, whether you acknowledge that or not). Unfortunately, empassioned pleas and blanket personal attacks for anyone that disagrees with you isn't going to get you far.

RedHawke
03-12-2006, 02:08 PM
The Distorted,

You need to take Achilles good advice above to heart here, you really do. Also note any sort of personal attack will not be tolerated here.

I'm not asking for people to agree with this perspective, only understand, acknowledge and respect it (I'm not saying none of these have been achieved at all, but I feel just not coherently enough so as to let my side of the argument die or stop - in an attempt to communicate this point of view thoroughly enough so it's considered as a "legitimate" angle, that's all).
Just an FYI, we all are entitled to our own opinions, and if you are asking for people to "understand, acknowledge and respect" your opinion, then what is with the post by you toward Kitty? That post is anything but understanding or respectful of her opinion.

Perhaps you need to curb your emotions before posting rebuttals.

If you expect something from people it is wise to first give it. ;)

Kitty Kitty
03-12-2006, 03:07 PM
:blinks and backs away slowly:

Well that was.. Interesting.

Seems like most folks got where I was aiming there, and just to be doubly clear, I was never looking to attack anyone or start a flame war or anything... If you look back at my first post in fact, you should find something in there which quite clearly indicates that yes, I too feel the game was far less than it could have been, or that we had been led to expect it to be, and that was less than satisfying. Which would.. y'know, sorta tend to be me essentially agreeing with the root of the matter.

I must say however that smileys and emoticons (at least as I intend them) are not patronizing. They're a means of establishing things like, 'gee, while reading what I've posted here I see there could be the potential for an angsty tone to be conveyed... not my intention. Let's add a smiley in here to show there's no ill intent and keep it light.'

Well... when they're not being used by someone who has essentially no argument or point and just wants a fight and then uses them in a manner obviously meant to be sarcastic and baiting, but I digress...

If you (ambiguous 'you' meaning anyone) choose to consider them as condescending and patronizing, there's not much I can do about it except to express my condolences. If you're looking that hard to find personal attacks and conflicts, you're going to spend a whole lot of wasted time engaged in utterly pointless bickering, where lots of things get said over and over but no one ever listens.

I would also invite you to show me in your initial post where you in any way clarified who this "they" is who "screwed us". I'm not a mind reader, so what you meant is completely irrelevant unless you also say it.

A much better approach would have simply been to have said, "Woah Kitty, that was pretty much what I meant in that first post. Seems you might not have quite understood that and misread me a bit..."

Probably would have served your interests better, if those interests are in fact to convince people to acknowledge and respect you and your opinions, as you say.

Lastly, and I only say this because I care -but there are a lot of decaffeinated brands on the market today that are just as tasty as the real thing.

(Yes, that's a blatantly stolen quote from the movie 'Real Genius', which I included to further attempt to convey the fact that I'm really not looking to insult or fight with anyone, and it just felt too fitting to resist. ;))

Cheers,
-Kitty

HerbieZ
03-12-2006, 04:11 PM
The game was excellent i though. There are some buggy parts and the ending was appaling but the more i play it the more it grows on me. It's hit a sort of cult status with me.

Char Ell
03-12-2006, 05:08 PM
^^^
I can't say the same. I'm on my 3rd play-thru of TSL, 1st time DS, and I just find that I'm not that interested in playing it anymore. It took me about 9 or 10 times thru KotOR before I lost interest. I don't think this is 100% attributable to TSL itself as my life situation changed (employment) between the time I played KotOR and the time I played TSL but I know I don't find TSL's story as compelling as KotOR's.

Great! We just get Kitty Kitty back and now Distorted is trying to chase her off again...:D@ Kitty Kitty - Well, I do hope you will continue to grace us with your insight and intellect in ...

***looks at Kitty Kitty's avatar***

Oh, excuse me. Where was I? Oh yes, I would be most disappointed if we didn't hear more from you on the more esoteric matters of the KotOR and TSL storylines and characters, game development, modding...

***looks at Kitty Kitty's sig pic***

... uh yeah, and did I mention how I appreciate your tastes in the genre of anime artwork? :brow: :D

The Distorted
03-12-2006, 06:23 PM
@Distorted: If all you're really after is some acknowledgement that your perspective is being heard, then you should take comfort in knowing that it appears to be coming across loud and clear.

OK - I am done repeating that now. It was because - I felt - that words that I didn't say were being put into my original point, and then an argument was being based upon those meanings, not my own.
Mine was a simple point, yes. That was the reason why I felt it necessary to rephrase that which I believed had been misunderstood, yet felt nothing further needed to be added.

As with any opinion, it is your own, and you're welcome to it. It seems that you feel everyone should see it your way (you state this quite plainly in post #9) and that just isn't going to happen. Perhaps with some more facts and well-developed arguements, you might be able to persuade some people to your side (which appears to be your intention, whether you acknowledge that or not). Unfortunately, empassioned pleas and blanket personal attacks for anyone that disagrees with you isn't going to get you far.

I can see where you got that first impression from ("Why are you trying to defend it - at all?") Ok, the tone was not helpful, I'll fully admit that. But look at it closely, it was a question. Obviously came across too aggressively though to seem that way. But I couldn't understand why this other line of argument was being placed against the one I was referring to in such a tone, either. I was questioning the true nature of the post - to Kitty Kitty specifically - not the questioning of my point. I felt like she was already decided in her view - not hearing what was actually being said.
Alright, now she says she didn't mean to offend or antagonise, and I'll choose to believe her (benefit of the doubt) - it was a misunderstanding. I am telling you now - I am sincere in this apology, but I get the impression that this sentiment won't be so easily returned (which again, is partly my fault). Please, prove me wrong. I don't desire to be right, just for the sake of it (for my ego, I mean).

As for your second point - I have addressed why this is so, above. I felt my original point was being missed more than anything.
It also seems (with referance to your bracketed point) that no matter what I say then, that I wouldn't be able to convince yourself otherwise. You can put anything into someone else's mouth with that technique, and read what you so desire into it. I don't believe derogatorarily lumping me in with a crowd is disagreeing with my point of view as a well-placed argument either. The facts listed had no semblance on my argument. So let's call it even, yeah? This is how I saw it at the time. Yes, I probably did act too hastily in my response, but I still believe that Kitty Kitty did the same with me too. This is why (not justifiably so, but just why) I responded - in my mind - in kind.

Lastly, it didn't seem to me that it was disagreements with my argument at all, but a complete generalisation of it, and then criticisms based upon where these eventually ended up in someone else's mind. That's why I felt my voice wasn't truly being heard.

Seems like most folks got where I was aiming there, and just to be doubly clear, I was never looking to attack anyone or start a flame war or anything... If you look back at my first post in fact, you should find something in there which quite clearly indicates that yes, I too feel the game was far less than it could have been, or that we had been led to expect it to be, and that was less than satisfying. Which would.. y'know, sorta tend to be me essentially agreeing with the root of the matter.

I must say however that smileys and emoticons (at least as I intend them) are not patronizing. They're a means of establishing things like, 'gee, while reading what I've posted here I see there could be the potential for an angsty tone to be conveyed... not my intention. Let's add a smiley in here to show there's no ill intent and keep it light.'

Well... when they're not being used by someone who has essentially no argument or point and just wants a fight and then uses them in a manner obviously meant to be sarcastic and baiting, but I digress...

I would also invite you to show me in your initial post where you in any way clarified who this "they" is who "screwed us". I'm not a mind reader, so what you meant is completely irrelevant unless you also say it.

A much better approach would have simply been to have said, "Woah Kitty, that was pretty much what I meant in that first post. Seems you might not have quite understood that and misread me a bit..."

Probably would have served your interests better, if those interests are in fact to convince people to acknowledge and respect you and your opinions, as you say.

If you didn't know who this "they" was Kitty Kitty, then you should've just asked me, not made an assumption instead (and lumped where I was coming from with a broad generalisation of an apparent point of view) and based judgements upon that supposition. That's what grinded me - what I was actually saying wasn't being heard at all. OK - I admit, I didn't go about responding to that in the best manner possible, but I'll apologise for that now. I am sorry for the tangent I went off on, and am truly sorry if I did offend you on any level (I don't think I did - but I see that as a good thing now, right?) but (rightly or wrongly) I felt I was being put in a position that "warranted" it. I felt I was responding to a show of disrespect and dismissal of my opinion first and foremost, so I put out a what I saw as a retaliation, such as it is.
Now - in hindsight - I see there have been many misunderstandings in this thread, and I have come to admit that I have had many myself. And I have been wrong in places too. But I am not alone. No one of us here is RIGHT or WRONG (I honestly never believed that also, and am not saying anyone else does) but it does feel like there is a mental block here (i have been guilty too) where no-one will give way because they feel justified, etc.

Just an FYI, we all are entitled to our own opinions, and if you are asking for people to "understand, acknowledge and respect" your opinion, then what is with the post by you toward Kitty? That post is anything but understanding or respectful of her opinion.

Perhaps you need to curb your emotions before posting rebuttals.

1. As mentioned above, I felt hers was neither. And that in turn, is why I asked for such a thing.

2. Again - not emotion, just sticking with my argument.

I disagree, hence my above advice. -RH

---

In regards to personal attacks - not naming names (the irony) - but I have seen many guilty of such things on this board, and on what I would truly term as a "personal" level. I did not believe anything I said was insulting, myself on a personal level, but more of a questioning of the person's grounding - as a challenge to back up their points, with moral etiquette to complement them.
I personally regard stereotyping as an insult too (I believe that this is not excusable just because there is no direct referance to the person in question).

As stated previously, many of these I felt justified with at the time, but now I obviously formed (at the least) some of those based on misconceptions. I am sorry for them, believe me.
This thing has been blown out of proportion (blatantly) and I think pointing out any blame in any degree would only perpetuate this situation further, so I will just accept my part in it, and leave this thing alone from now on, on my part.
I have said my peace, that is all. No more, no less.
No hard feelings.

Sincerely,

Martyn.

PS Could this have gone anymore off topic? :lol:

Achilles
03-12-2006, 06:45 PM
*reads*

I feel like I just spent an afternoon with Alan Greenspan :D

<snip> ...leave this thing alone from now on, on my part.
I have said my peace, that is all. No more, no less.
No hard feelings.Sounds great. Done and done.

Kitty Kitty
03-12-2006, 09:05 PM
@ Distorted - Hey, it's all good on my end.

I mean, this is the internet. For better or worse, it's almost entirely text based communication. No tone, no body language, no extra clues to lend context, meaning or intent. This isn't the first time I've seen that lead to misunderstandings, and I'm pretty sure it won't be the last either.

You're quite correct of course though. I should have requested clarification rather than making assumptions, and for that I do sincerely apologize.

Additionally, with all the posts that have come after in mind and reading back through the original I can see where you might not have read it quite as I had intended. Your statement was indeed what spawned my initial response in regards to the 'mob mentality' and so forth of bashing the game company, developers, etc etc -but what I didn't make very clear in hindsight was the fact that while you comments had been the catylist perhaps, my response wasn't actually designed to be targeted at you personally so much as it was more of a blanket statement intended to remind everyone that it's a whole lot more involved than just a simple equation of 'well they don't care so they gave us a crap game on purpose'.

Anyways, I wanted to be sure to make it known that there's no hard feelings on my end, other than my being a bit annoyed by the irony. Here I was trying to avert what I had percieved as a potential for this thread to degenerate into a big argument, and because I wasn't as clear as I should have been I wound up helping to start a completely different one. Yay me, eh? ;P

So in an effort to reverse a bit of the derailment we've done, I'll say again that while I did like TSL, there are a great many things about it that really bugged me -especially when compared back to the original.

Among those is the fact that I'd expected more side quests tied to your party members and interesting little bits of conversation to try to discover rather than less.

One rule of thumb for any successful sequel whether it be a book or a movie or a game or whatever is that if you expect it to be well recieved, you need to make it bigger and better than the original. Fallout and Fallout 2 are an excellent example of this being done correctly. While there are still a lot of people out there who'll in the end say they favor the first in that series, most of them still admit it's a very hard choice because there was so much more of everything in the second game, but they just prefer the feel and story of the first.

In TSL, I felt that was sorely lacking -much of the story and gameplay felt... rushed and forced I suppose. Like Keira (I really hate her), and how she seems more like a "crutch" tool rather than a well fleshed out character. It's as if in many places the team needed to steer things in a certain direction, but couldn't think of a good way to do so, and just dumped in yet another thing you had to bother with Keira to accomplish even though it didn't really make any good sense.

I'm gonna cut it short though, because just complainging about her alone could fill pages and pages (especially with my trend for verbosity), but suffice to say that yes, I definitely felt there were a lot of ways in which we could have gotten a much better and more complete feeling game. I'm just hoping they take some of this to heart for the next one.

Cheers,
-Kitty

lonegungirl
03-14-2006, 02:39 AM
Thanks to everyone for sympathizing with me!

In retrospect, I think stoffe -mkb- is correct in observing that the same character interaction may be present, but just presented in fewer/larger chunks. I sort of think it works a little better to space it out more, so it doesn't seem like people initially give long thoughtful monologues, and then forever after say "wanna play pazaak?"

I don't have too much experience with mods (although I remember getting the one adding the Carth scene back in the end of KOTOR1) but there does seem to be a lot of intriguing ones out there, and I'll certainly be waiting to see how all the good work to restore the deleted content turns out.

I'm working on light side/male now and I would still say that the beginning of the game is very good, and probably more interesting than many of the other games I've seen out. I'll try changing up the planet order and see if that punches things up a notch.

Thanks for all the input!

Jae Onasi
03-14-2006, 03:00 PM
I agree with a lot of what lonegungirl feels. There are parts of TSL that I liked better than Kotor and parts I liked less. I hated running around without party members on Peragus (til the Harbinger) and Malachor. I didn't like getting the NPCs' conversations all in one big chunk. I liked that the TSL story was different, darker, and that Kreia, whether you love or hate her, was a very well developed and fascinating character. I thought her character was the best done out of both games. I was frustrated with the ending, and being in the med field, having a dying person _standing_ and 'monologing' for 10 minutes to give you the ending was unrealistic enough to blow my suspension of disbelief. I did enjoy being able to play as different NPCs, and being 'forced' to use some NPCs meant that I played some characters that I might not ordinarily play. The bonded crystal was really cool, and I loved being able to upgrade the lightsabers more. The new robes and armors were cool. The random loot was cool (or drove you nuts if you got 50 of the same things. :) ). I liked the construction and lab benches so that I didn't have to run all over the place trying to scrape up enough money to buy the super-cool lightsaber crystal or extra battle stimulants that was on the planet that I'd already completed 2 star maps back. I didn't like that they left out the romance options in TSL that were available in Kotor.
I think if I'd been able to have my party on Malachor, had an ending that was a little less heavy on the dialog and a little more cinematic, had the opportunity to declare my true love for one of the party members, and actually got to see us inside the Ebon Hawk as we escaped so that I knew for sure we all made it (if LS), then I probably would have felt less disappointed with how the game went. Overall, though, I enjoyed the game, and have played it a number of times since because you really can't get the full story from just one play-through.
The mods do help the game a fair bit, and so I have a number of those installed. There's a lot of really cool stuff to choose from in the mod department. I'll be interested to see how the TSL restoration project changes things in terms of gameplay.