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Non-false Jedi
03-12-2006, 11:21 AM
So when Kreia talks about "There must always be a Darth Traya, one who holds the knowledge of betrayal, who was betrayed and will betray in turn. For the galaxay needs it's betrayers, especially in the dark times to come."

That was a major "WTF moment" for me in Kotor II. That doesn't make sense to me. What the hell does that even mean? It really seems to reinforce the idea that TSL is filled with nonsensical contradictory drivel.

Maverick5770
03-12-2006, 11:55 AM
I belive that she meant that there will always be someone who manipulates,betrays and lies to mess up the galaxy. Darth Sidious would be an example of this. That was my take on it anyway.

Char Ell
03-12-2006, 12:13 PM
If we had a crystal ball and could see KotOR 3 in it then we would know. Well hopefully know anyway. :)

Until such time though, I agree with Maverick5770's view. In a way I see Revan fitting Kreia's description. Revan betrayed the Jedi after the Mandalorian Wars, was in turn betrayed by Malak, then Revan's followers were betrayed again in a sense when Revan inexplicably left them for the Unknown Regions.

Tysyacha
03-12-2006, 03:09 PM
What I never could understand: If the Exile is living proof that someone
can live without the Force, and Kreia's only hope in a sense, then why
does Kreia want to kill the Exile on Malachor V?

Meatbag
03-12-2006, 04:29 PM
She doesn't want to kill him, he leaves her no choice.

Non-false Jedi
03-12-2006, 04:38 PM
What? How does the exile do that!?

Meatbag
03-12-2006, 05:14 PM
The Exile doesn't agree to help her destroy the Force, you know? There is not other choice, you know?

JediMaster12
03-13-2006, 01:55 AM
I belive that she meant that there will always be someone who manipulates,betrays and lies to mess up the galaxy. Darth Sidious would be an example of this. That was my take on it anyway.
Quoted for emphasis!

PazaakPrincess
03-13-2006, 11:15 AM
It's all just a big endless circle of lies and betrayals it is inherit in the Sith to betray one another for power.

There can also be no balance without chaos so it is impossible to completely end the cycle and the inevitability that some will fall to the Dark Side.

It's also one of the motivations Kreia has for "ending" the force or atleast believing that she can because she had ultimately been betrayed by it more then once.

Darth SINner
03-13-2006, 11:49 PM
I think Kreia wanted to kill the exile on Malacore V because she figured that the Exile caused the destruction of Malacore and with in the planets core it would also be the end of the force.

JediMaster12
03-14-2006, 02:33 AM
Kreia hated the Force yet couldn't bear the thought of being separated from it. She, IMO, wanted to test the Exile and prepare him for thr trials he would face should he choose to follow Revan into the Unknown Regions.

Non-false Jedi
03-14-2006, 05:01 AM
but what has testing the exile got to do with ending the force?

And the other thing is she makes it sounds like there MUST be betrayers? huh? Since when was that required? and when was it required by one individual?

Meatbag
03-14-2006, 11:04 AM
Nobody is perfect, not even me...

Jae Onasi
03-14-2006, 01:13 PM
So when Kreia talks about "There must always be a Darth Traya, one who holds the knowledge of betrayal, who was betrayed and will betray in turn. For the galaxay needs it's betrayers, especially in the dark times to come."

That was a major "WTF moment" for me in Kotor II. That doesn't make sense to me. What the hell does that even mean? It really seems to reinforce the idea that TSL is filled with nonsensical contradictory drivel.

It's just Kreia messing with your mind once again. ;)

JediMaster12
03-14-2006, 01:54 PM
So simply put and yet so right. She has been betrayed by Sion, Nilhilis and the Force and to an extend her former pupil Revan. Betrayal does strnge things to a person and ususally the best form of revenge takes time and planning, like the Count of Monte Cristo.

Maverick5770
03-14-2006, 11:23 PM
@JediMaster12, how true!

PisOgPapir
03-16-2006, 09:52 AM
No, it's because of cut content. Originally Atris was going to turn to the dark side but if you saved her. Kreia would. Hence the "There must always"

The Sith'ari
06-27-2006, 05:00 PM
There's one thing I don't understand though: what about the bond between Kreia and the exile? Wasn't it previously mentioned that if one was dead the other would likely die too? Why didnt the exile suffer anything when he killed Kreia?

And I still don't understand why Traya had to kill the exile... loads of question marks in my head when I finished the game.

mimartin
06-27-2006, 05:52 PM
There's one thing I don't understand though: what about the bond between Kreia and the exile? Wasn't it previously mentioned that if one was dead the other would likely die too? Why didnt the exile suffer anything when he killed Kreia?.

It was a lie. It was just another of Kreia’s manipulation of the Exile. The Jedi Masters tell you as much when you ask them about force bonds. Her weapon is lies, betrayal and manipulation (although the floating lightsaber was a pretty good trick too).


And I still don't understand why Traya had to kill the exile... loads of question marks in my head when I finished the game.

She didn't, but she had to fight the Exile as a test. If the Exile could defeat her it proved that he/she was the greatest Kreia had every trained and was ready to follow Raven into the unknown region.

tbl1
06-28-2006, 01:28 AM
Kreia was betrayed by the Jedi, when they exiled her and then betrayed again by the sith (Sion and Nihilus), when they exiled her. Thus the moniker, Traya. Traya blamed the force which had destined her to be betrayed by those who she had loyally served. She wanted to kill the force to stop it from controlling peoples lives and she wanted to use the Exile to help her do it, being the wound in the force. As for why the had to fight, there could be a few reasons:
1) She was a Sith Lord etc.
2) What mimartin said.
3) It proved her philosophy correct about living without the force or wound in the force or something along thos lines.

Lord Foley
06-28-2006, 01:25 PM
What I never could understand: If the Exile is living proof that someone
can live without the Force, and Kreia's only hope in a sense, then why
does Kreia want to kill the Exile on Malachor V?

She doesn't want to kill him, she wants him to kill her- but it has to be a challenge, because it is his final test, to see if he really was all she wanted him to be.

It was a lie. It was just another of Kreia’s manipulation of the Exile. The Jedi Masters tell you as much when you ask them about force bonds. Her weapon is lies, betrayal and manipulation (although the floating lightsaber was a pretty good trick too).


You're quite foolish to fall for Jedi propaganda. If you talk to Kreia, she tells you that you won't die because you can shield each other from the pain- which you do from there on out. That's why you only once get hurt when she does. Kreia didn't want the exile to die, she wanted him to prove himself by killing her- so she was undoubtably shielding him from her own death.

I have combined your Double Posts. Please refrain from Double Posting, that is having multiple posts in a row, while it is alright to do in some rare instances, here it isn't. Use the 'edit this' post feature to add any new content to your previous posts, thanks. -RH

The Sith'ari
06-29-2006, 02:04 AM
Yah, I get it now. But just one more thing: How does Traya intend to kill the force with the help of the exile? I know the exile is the wound of the force, death of the force, etc., that he is the echo and he had to cut himself from the force just so to save himself in Malachor. But how is it related to killing the force? How can it be achieved?

Sorry if I didn't listen hard enough to the scripts in the game (but I did try), but there're still sthg I don't quite understand. Like, the jedi said that they wanted to find the exile when they knew of this new threat. Erm...I don't get it why they wanted to find him.

Also, in the beginning, when T3 plays the holocron stolen from Atris and it's known that the 5 jedi master who sentenced the exile were those last existing, it's said that as if there's a plan and a trap going on. What is that plan??

Sorry again if the last 2 questions don't belong here, but I asked anyway.

darth_traya
07-17-2006, 03:33 AM
Yah, I get it now. But just one more thing: How does Traya intend to kill the force with the help of the exile? I know the exile is the wound of the force, death of the force, etc., that he is the echo and he had to cut himself from the force just so to save himself in Malachor. But how is it related to killing the force? How can it be achieved?

I believe there are 2 reasons Kreia wanted to fight the Exile.

1. All through the game Kreia does everything she can to be able to make the exile rely on no one but himself. She doesn't want the Exile to get close to anyone (ie. Handmaiden etc) and she wants him to conquer his past (ie. Atris on first visit to Telos). This fight would stop their connection and make hime stand alone.

2. The Exile is a wound, a hole in the force and when one dies they become one with the force. But this could not happen with the Exile. Maybe when the Exile dies instead of becoming one with the force the force is drawn into the Exile's hole destroying it.

Jediphile
07-17-2006, 03:47 AM
To me Kreia's goal was always to prepare and teach the Exile, so that he would embrace her philosophy. Kreia wants to kill the will of the force, but she knows she cannot do that herself, since she just doesn't have the ability to do so. But the Exile does, and her eventual goal is to bring the Exile to a point where he will make that choice. She can't force him into it, but she can guide and manipulate him to that point, though only if she submits him to the right tests and challenges. When Kreia dies that quest is still unresolved for her, but she accepts that, because she knows there is no alternative for her - only the Exile can kill the will of the force, and she must do all she can to bring him to a point where he might - just might - make the choice to do so. But she also knows that in the end it is his choice to make and not her's. Whether a KotOR3 will pick up on that remains to be seen...

The Sith'ari
07-17-2006, 07:59 AM
Maybe when the Exile dies instead of becoming one with the force the force is drawn into the Exile's hole destroying it.
I just dont' quite manage to get it. He rejected the force, he severed himself from it, he's now a hollow shell, without the force. But how does that
relate to detroying the force itself? Are you saying that when he segregated from the force he tore a part of the force from the force?

The exile produced a wound in the Force the last time he willingly detached himself from it. Then, to cause death to the Force, what is he supposed to do? I don't think he dying will achieve that because that is different from "willingly detach". Can anyone explain?

Mace MacLeod
07-17-2006, 06:42 PM
So when Kreia talks about "There must always be a Darth Traya, one who holds the knowledge of betrayal, who was betrayed and will betray in turn. For the galaxay needs it's betrayers, especially in the dark times to come."

That was a major "WTF moment" for me in Kotor II. That doesn't make sense to me. What the hell does that even mean? It really seems to reinforce the idea that TSL is filled with nonsensical contradictory drivel.

Yeah, you might be right about that.

As far as I interpret it, Kreia wants to kill the force itself because she was betrayed not only be the Sith but also by the Jedi, who cast her out of their order as well. Her revenge goes beyond just messing with either faction, she wants to kill the very thing that gives both their power. She blames the force itself for her repeated downfalls, so she wants to get rid of it altogether. With the Exile's "hole in the force" weirdness, he/she just might be able to do it. It really doesn't explain how that might happen in any meaningful way in the game (at least not one I ever stumbled across), but that's the most coherent interpretation I've been able to reason into it.

Vaelastraz
07-18-2006, 07:07 PM
Ok, Kreia said that. And because it was Kreia who said that it has to be right, right?
No.

Kreia could as well be wrong will all her precious predictions and wise slogans.

That particular phrase of her you quoted is almost like Obi Wan's
"Only a Sith deals in absolutes", which is a paradoxon.

In my opinion, Kreia talks a lot of ****.

And I consider her motives a bit erm strange as well. Because of being betrayed by Sith and Jedi (Jedi? Did they actually betray her?) she wants to kill the force (what a lame thought) using the Exile who is a leak in the force (again, what a lame ...).

Ok i stop here, but don't take anything Kreia says as the ultimate truth.

Mace MacLeod
07-18-2006, 07:51 PM
Never said it wasn't lame...

Yeah, it could be crap, but hey we're talking about a video game philosophy here. If she's wrong, what's the point in playing it? She's the final boss after all.

pegasus71
07-21-2006, 04:39 PM
IMO Kreia thinks that for any belief to live for any struggle or conflict to end it is necessary if not inevitable that some betray their belief like Revan did. Betray in order to save, it is taking your teaching -here the ones of the jedi- to their limits in order to protect them in a sense (though it was never kreia's intention to protect the jedi teachings i think). It is a very remakable statement I've never seen anyone defend that point of view in the past, I got handed to the; that Kreia is a hell of a character.

Kreia did not want to kill the Exile, she wanted to break him to drive in to the heart of malachor where the force runs strong and breaking him in order to great an echo that would only amplify the wound that he is. All she wanted to do is to re-enact what happened at the end of the mandalorian wars on malachor that caused the exile to break of the force, but on a much bigger scale so that the whole galaxy would have to break of it.

Did I get it right guys???

PoiuyWired
07-21-2006, 05:16 PM
Anyone notice how similar Kreia is to Lumiya?

Jediphile
07-22-2006, 08:32 AM
Kreia is far more complex and manipulative than Lumiya, who is little more than a Vader/Palpatine wanna-be. Besides, Lumiya was not betrayed by both sides - she was the one who betrayed Luke, though she is too filled with hatred to see it herself. Still, I'm glad they picked up on the character - she was wide open to be used as a villain even after the Marvel comics stopped.