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View Full Version : The Prequels - Too Political?


Alkonium
03-12-2006, 11:29 PM
I'm just curious if anyone thinks that the Star Wars prequels have too much politics in them. I for one don't mind, in fact, political humour is one of my favourite kinds of humour, but this is about your opinion, not mine.

Lynk Former
03-12-2006, 11:36 PM
I think its needed to show just how the Republic was destroyed. It's more than just an evil villian with super powers that led to such events.

Jeff
03-12-2006, 11:38 PM
I agree, the movies would not have made sense had the political parts not been included.

TK-8252
03-12-2006, 11:39 PM
Umm... we are talking about the fall of a republic and the birth of an empire here, after all. It kinda has to have the politics.

Commander Obi-Wan
03-12-2006, 11:44 PM
I don't care, but I think they belonged there. It sorta helps the storyline.

Kensai
03-13-2006, 04:24 AM
If anything there should have been more.

Samnmax221
03-13-2006, 04:40 AM
THe politics in the prequels are an importent allegory, the less government the better

Redtech
03-13-2006, 09:20 AM
Personally, it mirrors our society far too much at the mo. If anything, it's a War on Terror allegory. Oh, and I dislike politics, it's far too anal on the details and not on the actions.

Way I see it, if you can't call everyone an idiot, including oneself, then you ain't looking hard enough. and that's a failing in any system.

Heck, the Emperor's final speech "is" a Bushism right there. I'm surprised he hasn't used it yet.

arkodeon
03-13-2006, 10:10 AM
Personally, it mirrors our society far too much at the mo. If anything, it's a War on Terror allegory. Oh, and I dislike politics, it's far too anal on the details and not on the actions.

Way I see it, if you can't call everyone an idiot, including oneself, then you ain't looking hard enough. and that's a failing in any system.

Heck, the Emperor's final speech "is" a Bushism right there. I'm surprised he hasn't used it yet.

I agree. I can totally see Bush making a speech like that.

Watch, at the end of the presidency, you'll see a "War" pop up, and to ensure the Safety and Security of the Republic of America, Bush will institute his own Imperial Role. XDD

Darth Macca
03-13-2006, 11:26 AM
Extremely political. Maybe it's trying to give the viewers a good inside to Chancellor Palpatine. He's a main figure throughout Star Wars.

Good Sir Knight
03-15-2006, 02:16 AM
I agree. I can totally see Bush making a speech like that.

Watch, at the end of the presidency, you'll see a "War" pop up, and to ensure the Safety and Security of the Republic of America, Bush will institute his own Imperial Role. XDD

Nah I think people see what they want to see. If Lucas wanted to make this look like some sort of anti-bush film, it would fail just like all those dried up has beens (Shean).

arkodeon
03-15-2006, 09:46 AM
Nah I think people see what they want to see. If Lucas wanted to make this look like some sort of anti-bush film, it would fail just like all those dried up has beens (Shean).

Considering the fact that a lot of the Senators and characters in the Star Wars universe borrow names from current/past senators, vice-presidents, and other politicians, I think this indeed is a very politically charged by the real world.

That being said, George Lucas doesn't seem like the person who blatantly puts out Bush-hate messages, but you can't help but make correlations between today's American government and that of the Galactic Senate, Intended or not.

Redtech
03-15-2006, 10:05 AM
I think he would argue it is the classical case of "absolute power corrupts absolutely", which to be fair, is a universal theme.

It's just sad that "ol' Bushy" just happens to be the definition of "Insidious" at the moment.

Who knows, 10, maybe 20 years down the line, it could be another US president. :) Although I dunno if we'd have run out of enemies to fight by then? How many countries are there???
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Well, there are other standards of goverment as well, the Star Wars "Senate" is pretty similar to the US one, although I would have loved if it was more like the Roman one, anyone who's seen the Beginning credits to Rome:Total War will love the way that the "man" just shouts out the popularist 'everyone with me, say aye!' Notion for just about anything.

But I doubt Lucas is going to go through "Democracy 101" to find other methods of policy, so he stuck with what he knew.

Good Sir Knight
03-16-2006, 04:02 AM
Alot people don't see Sidious in Bush okay, this is abundantly obvious.

Jump on the Band Wagon, If you see Sidious in Bush, great..good for you...Star Wars fans are about as divided as any other American's politicaly so stating it as fact is a coax at best.

You need to remember that you see the world from yourself, your beliefs.

Redtech
03-16-2006, 08:32 AM
Erm, I'm not American. +350 intellect bonus right there for all the RPG stats fans out there.

Somehow I fail to see the plus sides to a leader so incompetant that while declaring war on two countries at once, and threatening a third, he can't save a few hundred people in one of his own cities.

Oh yes, if only Bushy could declare war on Hurrican Katrina.

If anything, Bush is too stupid to use the Darkside of the force. Your point is "teh win" there.

And as already mentioned, I'm "neutral" to the idea that there is such a thing as an ideal leader. But at least I can make many interesting and insulting gestures to world leaders. A TRUE democracy is critical to every single aspect their leaders make.

Y'know, if only they did that, the Republic would still stand, so in that way, the film does indeed have a nice metaphor.

Probably better to keep the thread on topic, rather than basting on the "my leader is better than yours" bandwagon etc. *sigh* and that's why politics sucks.

arkodeon
03-16-2006, 09:39 AM
Leaders aren't like they used to be.

It's like.. the factory in which they came out of simply...went out of business.

I mean...Look at Alexander. He united all of the Eastern World under one flag, and he EVEN WENT INTO WAR with his people.

Nowadays, if a leader were to step foot on the battlefield...

"...LOLOLOLRZ! N00BZ FO' SHO! SNIPZ HIS HEAD, YO!"
*Leader is snipered.*
*Enemy wins. ;D*

That's the problem. I think political leaders are always stuck in their damn offices...they need to get out and see the true problems of the world, not the pretty little picture of High-class lifestyle. ): Oh yeah, and Bush is already turning more and more into Palpatine. D:

Dare I say...Patriot Act, anyone? That sounds like a very Palpatine-thing-to-do.

TSR
03-16-2006, 09:44 AM
well, the clone wars and the phantom menace were, but revenge of the sith made up for it.

Good Sir Knight
03-16-2006, 01:50 PM
Erm, I'm not American. +350 intellect bonus right there for all the RPG stats fans out there.

Right buddy. So what makes the British so smart? I'm not into gross generalizations though I'd suggest you look at your own leader before criticizing ours.

Patsy?

I understand though. It's so hip to hate America these days, I even see it in my home city.


Oh yes, if only Bushy could declare war on Hurrican Katrina.

Oh like you even gave a shat. The British press fiended over the carnage. Please don't pretend like you care, they were just a bunch of ignorant Americans right?


.....on the "my leader is better than yours" bandwagon etc. *sigh* and that's why politics sucks......

Blair went along with everything, he's such a good little boy.

TK-8252
03-16-2006, 05:08 PM
The problem with comparing Bush to Palpatine is that Palpatine, like Hitler, was a good speaker. He could speak with force and with emotion, to really rally his supporters.

Bush is known for being rather sucky when it comes to speeches.

Kurgan
03-16-2006, 11:31 PM
Well, let's agree that the prequels can be political without Bush = Palpatine being an absolute fact accepted by everyone. ;)

The heavy dose of politics in TPM turned off many people and it was somewhat boring and overdone by the time of AOTC. And despite what some have implied, no it was not NECESSARY to show the politics in the prequels. They could have shown the effects of the policies like they did in the classic trilogy, show various characters complain about this or that thing that affects their lives. Palpatine could have gained power via a coupe (remember, this wasn't all set in stone, Lucas freely changed many things, like making Palpatine into a Force user, and making him Chanceller instead of president, and he never had to be a human, though ROTJ strongly implied it, he looked rather strange at that point). Palpatine's machinations were interesting, but it's quite a contrast to the usual swashbuckling adventure we're used to in the rest of the series. Not everyone took up that part of the prequels with gusto. So you had the space opera version of CNN with lots of CGI, that's the impression a lot of people got from their first theater reactions of TPM and AOTC... or else they saw TPM as a silly kiddie cartoon with some preachy politics stamped on top for good measure (and AOTC being a cardboard romance novel with the same type of tacked on political sermon).

A political story can be quite interesting, and palace intruige and all that makes for a great yarn. The question is, is it as legitimate a thing to put into a Star Wars flick, or have we been trained so much on the adventure aspect that it seems out of place?

Redtech
03-17-2006, 09:12 AM
Snip!
If you read my post before, you'd remember I said I am being "neutral", I try to see past the gloss of most rubbish. After all, Kerry is a as big a dolt as Bush, "OMFG! I GOT 200+ KILLS!" Anyway, way I see it, UK is just an American Protectorate in self denial, we can't even dominate our own millitary or airforce! Tell me, if you had a foreign nation dictating your foreign policy, what would you say?

As for Katrina, well, I have quite a few American relatives who live in "down south", it's nice to think that if the worst shall happen, they'll be looked after better than some people in a country several thousand miles away who hate everyone's guts.

As for Blair, I would point you to a board which has some interesting opinions on the man, but it's NSFW due to any reason imaginable.
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Kurgan, you seem to sum up the whole issue really well. Personally, I think the OT had the whole advantage that it didn't matter what the Senate thought, or the attitude of planets towards the rebel aliance, it just told a story using strong characters. But I feel that politics is not black or white, just a mono shade of grey and it's the boring shade at that. I mean, you could easily skip almost all the scenes with the senate and still get a decent film, besides maybe the Jar Jar bit, and personally, I'm annoyed he still does so little in ROTE at least give him a bit where he realises the consequences of his action. If anything, he's too throw away, he didn't need to be in any of the sequels considering the little impact he does.

Good Sir Knight
03-17-2006, 11:45 AM
Look I'm sorry for coming off crisp but I'm just really tired of hearing the "Americans are dumb" generalization.

So overused, it's like saying the British have bad teeth.

Prime
03-17-2006, 12:55 PM
The heavy dose of politics in TPM turned off many people and it was somewhat boring and overdone by the time of AOTC. The political stuff was some of my favorite stuff from the prequels. It was nice to have a villian who took over the galaxy through means other that straight up conquest.

rccar328
03-17-2006, 06:40 PM
The political aspect was undeniable...I think Lucas kind of started going over the edge, but it wasn't too much. The Palpatine thing was political, but it was part of the plot...the attempts at Palpatine=Hitler, and Anakin's "if you're not with me you're my enemy" line were laughable...but I still enjoyed the movie.

I stopped caring about politics in movies a long time ago, so it didn't phase me. I agree with Kurgan - keeping the politics out & having characters complain about policies instead would've been interesting...but I think it would've taken away from the films overall, given the political role of the Jedi council.

Samnmax221
03-17-2006, 10:21 PM
Dare I say...Patriot Act, anyone? That sounds like a very Palpatine-thing-to-do.
Only if you have something to hide

TK-8252
03-17-2006, 10:36 PM
Only if you have something to hide

Or maybe if you favor your Constitutional rights.

Samnmax221
03-18-2006, 01:25 AM
Or maybe if you favor your Constitutional rights.
This may shock you but there is no right to privacy declared in the constitution or bill of rights

TK-8252
03-18-2006, 01:29 AM
Well this is not the place to discuss this, but I'll just say that you should check out the Fourth Ammendment...

Samnmax221
03-18-2006, 03:03 AM
That would be search and seizure not privacy, but as the Constitution and Bill of Rights were written open to interpretation it would be up to the Supreme Court to decide what it means

Kurgan
03-18-2006, 05:03 AM
Only if you have something to hide

That's the thing, we ALL have something to hide. It's not just terrorists and criminals that have secrets after all. There's this thing called "blackmail." Everybody has some secret shame or something they're not proud of, that someone if they knew it all, could use it against you in some way if they really wanted to. It's part of dirty politics. Information is a weapon.

Maybe you have somebody you trust, whom you share your secrets with. Your doctor, your attorney, your priest, your spouse, your mom, your dad.. how about a group of strangers in some back room some place? How about some government official you voted into office? What about somebody you didn't vote for? Some corporation or NGO? See, it gets sticky...

Anyway, the point is that by invading people's privacy you can use dirty tricks to silence opponents, blackmail people or threaten them for favors, money, or just getting the heat off something they're doing that actually IS illegal, etc.

If you have a right to privacy and its violated, then the violater is doing something ILLEGAL. If you have no right to privacy, what they're doing may still be UNETHICAL. Notice how the government keeps things top secret and doesn't let ordinary citizens check in on a lot of it with claims of national security and executive privilege. Is that fair? Especially when our taxes pay their salaries? So they get to spy on you, but you can't spy on them, that seems to be the double standard. And what have they done to earn your trust? It's one thing to tell somebody a secret voluntarily. It's another for them to just spy on you and get the secret just on a personal whim. There's that famous phrase we've all heard "who watches the watchers?"

Plus it's just plain nosey. It's like if the government got to watch videos of you in the shower, bedroom and the toilet every day. I mean, what business is it of there's? It's one thing to be a celebrity and put your private life out in public, but the average person just wants to do their thing and be left alone. It's natural enough. The common "dream" of being famous is mostly because people assume they'd also be wealthy and universally loved, not that knowledge of their private lives would be used against them or that they'd be constantly viewed with suspicion, waiting for them to make some kind of mistake or blunder to pounce on.

Anyway, sorry for the rant, let's try to stay on topic with regards the SW movies here. If you want to branch out and argue constitutional law or privacy rights or something, I suggest the Senate Chambers, which is our best place for debating and (non-star wars) political discussions. ;)

Samnmax221
03-18-2006, 02:46 PM
I see your point, though I'm still in favor of the patriot act I do think it should be moniterd some how, how I don't know. Albiet the Allegory seen in the prequels could also be related to Hosni Mubarak in Egypt, who has held political power long past his time and silenced his oppenents, Strictly speaking the politics could be related to any government people see as totalitarian

Redtech
03-19-2006, 09:49 AM
Hmmm, fair point, but it's very, very, very easy in our realitively soft governments to lay judgement, then complain of critisisms of ourselves.

Ass for the patriots, well,
guess it's 1-0 to team evil though.

Point Man
03-19-2006, 08:11 PM
I loved the political stuff in the prequels. How can you not be fascinated by the way Palpatine manipulated everyone into thinking they were acting of their own accord, when they were actually helping him? I mean, here you have the entire Jedi council in his office, they can't even tell he is the most powerful Sith Lord ever, and he is using them to advance his goals. I still get goosebumps when I watch those scenes again.

Samnmax221
03-20-2006, 05:20 PM
Well he didn't have everyone fooled, the Rebels for one

Point Man
03-21-2006, 11:16 PM
Well he didn't have everyone fooled, the Rebels for one
Just goes to show that sometimes the Jedi Masters aren't as smart as ordinary folks.

Samnmax221
03-22-2006, 06:06 PM
Or they just have water on the brain

boinga1
03-24-2006, 12:41 PM
Actually there is no evidence that the Rebels know anything about Palpatine being a Sith (except for Luke). There is considerable suggestion (in the EU) that the majority of the galaxy's inhabitants know nothing about Palpatine's Force abilities. This make sense, for how many people would knowingly make a Sith Lord their leader?

Fealiks
03-24-2006, 01:38 PM
Very political yes, but thats good. Its also helping kids. The OT knowingly taught kids to be good, by making them try to get onto the "light side", the PT, in a way, is explaining politics to small children; kids love the star wars films so they really will take it in.
Also, you cant have the PT (especially epIII) without politics, the political side of the movies is where the mainstream events lie so you cant really make movies like this without politics.

Justus
03-24-2006, 01:42 PM
Your average joe in the Star Wars galaxy would probably have no idea or knowledge of Palpatine being a Sith lord, or even Vader being one. If you are a regular bloke in that galaxy you wouldn't even realize that Palpatine created the Clone Wars and was playing both sides, we the viewers get a unique perspective on events to progress the story. To an average guy Palpatine would probably 'appear' to be a great ruler, since he was getting things done -of course Palpatine was playing his cards rather well to get public support and sympathy and it worked.

Other than maybe tabloids or rumors on the holonet (which would probably be quickly censored) no one other than maybe Luke and a small handful of others know of Palpatine's true power.

Redtech
03-24-2006, 02:43 PM
Fealiks, some of us don't live in the Matrix. Firstly, try explaining to children that thousands of people today are living in fear, terror and death because of the whims of a few people in Ivory Towers. Heck, tell them that their views and beliefs don't matter and that their lives are only as cattle for their elders and betters and that their deaths will be largely insignificant (and in the UK, a valuable source of taxable revenue). I believe politics are a fundamental evil of hypocrisy, but there you go..

And you can make movies without politics.

I doubt that "Sauron's policy of anti-Elvism established in 1000 along with the Isengard/Morder alliance under the coalition of the Enemies of The West motivated the Gondorian-Rhohirrim alliance known as the Men of The West to begin pre-emptive assurtive millitary pressure on the allies of the EOTW via attacks on the Rhum-Morder millitary supply routes.." makes a good movie!

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Justus, an interesting point really, I'm surprised how readily everyone accepted their "place" as lackeys to an emperor. I suppose there may have been some strong benefits that aren't seen. After all, Pharoh had some divine richees despite being a despicable monarchy.

Prime
03-24-2006, 03:34 PM
Actually there is no evidence that the Rebels know anything about Palpatine being a Sith (except for Luke). Although it is very possible that they might considering all the discussion between Yoda, Kenobi, and Bail Organa before they go their seperate ways. Bail knows that Yoda failed to defeat/capture the emperor and no doubt the events were passed to him by Yoda. Since he was a founding member of the Rebellion...