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Gregory_William
03-18-2006, 10:35 PM
Hello everyone! I tried the enhanced_009, and yeah Razor, that saber fight system is also good, but I noticed the single saber is still weaker than the dual and the saber staff. I watched kyle tabbot fight morgan katarn tabbot, and kyle always died, leaving morgan with more than 50% of DP.
Maybe it's because the dual and saber staff make double hits and have greater "fisical area" of hit detection using less DP to block, I don't know...
Perhaps if you changed the used percentage of DP in those kinds of fight...
P.S.: I thought of a suggestion for the next release: What do you think of Model scaling, having characters in the right size... Ojp doesn't have that, does it?
Thank you!
And keep up the modding!

RBitG
03-18-2006, 11:47 PM
the single saber is still weaker than the dual and the saber staff.

Yes, i've noticed this, wasn't Razor going to do something about making Staff/Dual harder to use?

And also, the dual/staff has the equivalent of Saber Offense 3 in holocron FFA, although i'm sure you already know that. ;)

JRHockney*
03-19-2006, 01:30 AM
Actually, Staff and dual are the weakest of the saber styles on a hit by hit basis. There are some differences though:

For staff, All hits on Staff only do about 50% the normal damage to the person using the staff, and thus it has very high defense. A staff using bot will usually win against a non-staff using bot because the bots don't no how to fight staff users. We still need to play test the staff a little more among players and make sure its not overpowered, but the tests so far say that it isn't.

For Dual, each saber hit is weak, but each saber hit is often counted as two hits so it can do alot of damage at times. They also have no penalty for faking.

Both styles have a 2 FP cost per swing to make them harder to use. Dual also has a high disarm probability. Overall, we just need more play testing time with these when the coding server gets back up.

P.S.: I thought of a suggestion for the next release: What do you think of Model scaling, having characters in the right size... Ojp doesn't have that, does it?

Yeah, I was wondering this myself. I WANT MY YODA THE RIGHT SIZE!!!!! lol

RBitG
03-19-2006, 02:18 AM
So, how does one beat a Staffer? And, if dual gets two hits, for double the DP, then it seems to me to be the same damage/cost, at a greater rate, this sounds rather overpowered to me. :/

JRHockney*
03-19-2006, 03:00 AM
So, how does one beat a Staffer? And, if dual gets two hits, for double the DP, then it seems to me to be the same damage/cost, at a greater rate, this sounds rather overpowered to me. :/

The biggest disadvange to the staff is its little damage and the fact that swings take 2 DP. This often makes staffers more cautious with there swinging and makes it harder for them to do enough damage to kill someone. The best way to kill a staffer is to wear them down gradually and kick slowbounces. Doing a slow slow bounce conversion on them is also alot easier because their is alot more saber to hit. Also use heavier styles on it to do more dp damage. We'll do some more testing when the code server is back up.

Dual sabers have a high mishap threshold, so its good to parry them alot. And they don't always to double damage, it kind of depends on the hit. Sometimes its rare.

RBitG
03-19-2006, 03:04 AM
So... Singles are better? And do you think they could make a single only gameplay option?

JRHockney*
03-19-2006, 03:33 AM
So... Singles are better? And do you think they could make a single only gameplay option?

Well, their not exactly better per se. We were trying to make them balanced against staff and dual (which we're hoping they are now). As for making a single only gameplay option, thats up to razor.

Gregory_William
03-19-2006, 12:07 PM
Another thing i've noticed it is that the dual/staff force the single saber user stay automatically in block position more time because of its double hits, leaving almost no time to counter attack, while the DP goes down too fast... D'you see?

So... Modelscaling is gonna be there? :)

ensiform
03-19-2006, 04:23 PM
that would be nice 8-) i have code to offer if razor wants.

Tapela
03-19-2006, 05:23 PM
I think razorace has commented on model scaling before saying it would be a pain to balance things and I would agree because small characters may look good but they will just be a pain to fight with OJP's system. I also think it would look ridiculous.

ensiform
03-19-2006, 08:09 PM
i didnt find it that hard and im pretty newbie at coding :L

RBitG
03-19-2006, 10:58 PM
No, i think Tapela meant that smaller models will be harder to hit using the OJP saber system, and that would unbalance the game.

JRHockney*
03-20-2006, 01:03 AM
No, i think Tapela meant that smaller models will be harder to hit using the OJP saber system, and that would unbalance the game.

Yeah, pretty much. The hit detection would be really weird and would have to be very specific. However, I might be worth trying for one size smaller, like yodas maybe. I think any smaller character of this size should be restricted to a short saber (like yoda). I always had a blast playing as him in base.

razorace
03-20-2006, 02:36 AM
Right that's the main issue and there really isn't a good answer for it. Basically, the saber animations and code was never designed for different body sizes. Anyone being yoda height would always land low hits so it would completely alter the parrying vs a short attacker.

Lathain Valtiel
03-20-2006, 03:02 AM
Even in BASE tiny models are grossly unbalanced... You just can't really hit them very easily except with splash damage guns, and if you're thinking of saber vs. saber, they get past block easily because of all their hits being low, which is known to influence how easily your saber can be blocked.

ensiform
03-20-2006, 03:48 PM
well most of the hit detection stuff is already adjusted i thought.

JRHockney*
03-20-2006, 03:55 PM
well most of the hit detection stuff is already adjusted i thought.

It would probably have to be readjusted for each size because of how the parrying system works. This is why it would be such a pain to do with general scaling. One size would be hard enough to balance correctly.

If it were to be adjusted for a model the size of yoda, maybe hits on him could do double DP damage in order to balance the fact that he's harder to hit.

ensiform
03-20-2006, 04:52 PM
well most of the saber system already adjusts for the modelScale factor.

mine also can adjust speed > 1 = faster, < 1 = slower.

also saber damage scaling > 1 = more damage, < 1 = less

min: 0.65, max: 1.3

well mine isnt like a client command, its server-side with a modelscale config. and can be disabled to certain extent. set it to 0 no scale, set it to 1 then you have speed scale and model, set it to 2 its the same thing but if u do 1+2 then you get saber damage scale also.

razorace
03-20-2006, 06:28 PM
Unfortunately, most of the code just isn't set up for it. I've seen several places where functions just assume that the player is the standard size.

Even with it set up properly, smaller players are MUCH, MUCH, harder to hit. It might work with a very liberal use of speed adjustment and DP/FP/Hit Point scaling. I'm open to suggestions.

I'd probably be willing to try it in Enhanced as long as everyone understand that it would have to be play tested extensively for balance and playability. Don't worry Lath, I'll be VERY careful. :)

What does JA+ use for its modelscale stuff? If there's a standard file format, I'd probably like to use that.

Samuel Kim
04-27-2006, 05:43 PM
I have an idea!

If anyone has seen episode 2 or 3 raise your hand! *raises hand*
Well, anyway, I think that damage control and blocking adjustments should do it!
"judge me by my size do you?" well we can, can we? maybe there should be a scaled damage control, smaller, less muscle or because of the smallerness, increase the parrying and blocking of the waist under for default or taller models.

razorace
04-27-2006, 08:06 PM
Say wha?

JRHockney*
04-28-2006, 01:00 AM
Even with it set up properly, smaller players are MUCH, MUCH, harder to hit. It might work with a very liberal use of speed adjustment and DP/FP/Hit Point scaling. I'm open to suggestions.

I kind of like this idea. For smaller characters, they should get a much shorter saber only (like yoda) and only be able to withstand maybe half the hits of a big person DP wise or maybe do a lot less damage with hits. ANYTHING TO MAKE A SMALL YODA PLAYABLE!!!

Gregory_William
04-29-2006, 10:43 PM
Yeah, actually I was thinking about a "real" size Desann and Grevious, but Yoda also Rocks!!!!