View Full Version : The Jedi training
04-03-2006, 01:47 PM
Didn't you guys think that although training many npcs as a Jedi was pretty cool, it didn't really seem to deliver much on the character side of things? I mean hardly anything changed...sadly this seems to be one of the general flaws with the characters in TSL...one would think that with such an important change in their relationships it would show. I mean training as a Jedi or a Sith is a serious thing. I mean they shouldn't instantly become all sombre Jedi like, but they don't treat you differently at all.
For example i was excited about Training Mira and Handmaiden as Dark (or regular) Jedi, because i thought we would get to see some interesting interactions. Mira especially i was looking forward to slightly more melodramatic lines form her. Not only that but i was hoping for a more "Dark Jedi" like lines from Brianna. Or anyone really, having a bunch of Dark Jedi on the ship would ahve been interesting. There is an interesting collection of phrases when you first trained them. What do you think? Couldn't they have improed this part of the game maybe in TSL?
Something to the effect of:
Handmaiden: I want to become a Jedi, like my mother before me.
Dark Handmaiden: I wish to face your enemies in combat and end them.
Mira says an intruiging: I am ready,I shall not fail you.
Atton also talks about following you to hell and back or something, which would indicate a good apprentice.
But after that nothing changes. I mean Bastila regards you differently in kotor I between Jedi and Dark Jedi. Nobody in TSL speaks to you any different from non-force user to dark/light force user.
I thought this was dissapointing, i mean we got 1 cool phrase from the training and thats all. I thought all the characters had good potential to start. They were all either basically good (or bad), but had seeds of darkness (or compassion) in them. Which seemed to provide the perfect peson to train as a Jedi. But apart from force powers they are exactly the same. Surely one would treat their Master/teacher at least slightly differently? You even got lines to treat them like servants or apprentices but they never responsed like you talked to then differently.
04-03-2006, 02:13 PM
It was disappointing because on Dxun during the tomb raid thing,if
you took Mira, she says something along the lines of "I'm no jedi, but you
shouldn't do that." and i DID train her as a jedi.
04-03-2006, 02:36 PM
Yes, I know what you mean, Non-false Jedi. The thing that bugged me the most was that when I had converted the "lighter" characters (such as Brianna) to the darkside of the force, not only did their dialogue not change, but they would still give me negative influence if I did something that contradicted with their original personalities e.g. I took Brianna with me (as well as Atton, but I digress) in the fight on Telos, before the Ravager: Now - when I got to the injured soldier and killed him, my FULLY darkside (with Mastery bonus to boot) Brianna went "NO! - Why did you attack him?! He meant us no harm!! *Wahh*" then I lost my hold over her and (of course) consequently she lost LOADS of darkside points. Frustrating. Even if they didn't have time to script new dialogues for your converted characters in such a situation, they could have at least made it so that they were removed (unable to trigger) once you had initially trained them in the ways the force i.e. "Handmaiden has taken her first steps into becoming a Dark Jedi Guardian", etc.
And yes, ~DarthGeek~, the opposite also happened to me - Handmaiden claiming that she could "sense" the darkside nature of the tomb, when (in my first game) I hadn't even trained her as a Jedi.
Plus, in the game where I had converted her completely to the DS, she still said, "We should avoid this area completely" when she approached the first of the two DS areas (purpley static thing). Again, could have simply been designed so that this dialogue would not occur under such circumstances.
Here's another one that soon peeved me off, "We've seen alot in the war, general. Do you wish to continue this suffering?"
Atton worked well though (a little off topic, but also Visas), as they had two sides to their personalities that opened up opposing paths that they could each follow.
Mira wasn't as extreme as Brianna, Mical and Bao-Dur as well in this regard, so that was better too.
04-03-2006, 05:14 PM
I noticed that myself. At least in KOTOR there are separate dialogues coming from NPCs based on your alignment tendencies. I have yet to play completely DS all the way so this is new to me and quite interesting. I would expect more of a blind obedience and also a pleasure in the DS. Reading these posts, it seems as if the NPCs may have been under developed in terms of training.
04-04-2006, 10:51 AM
I hated the fact that by the time you converted them to Jedi, their stories were done. I mean, I didn't train anybody. They said OK, and poof they were fully trained Jedi. Apparently the only thing I could train Atton in was pazaak.
04-05-2006, 12:29 AM
What do you mean? I thought Atton taught you. :D
04-07-2006, 10:39 AM
Yeah, they give you all the conversation in one lump sum. I would have preferred smaller chunks of conversation spread out over the life of the game.
A short cutscene showing even a little of the training process for each party member might have mitigated the "Poof! You're now a Jedi!" feeling.
04-07-2006, 12:59 PM
What do you mean? I thought Atton taught you. :DTouche!
04-07-2006, 08:48 PM
Before that, they should start cutting up Lady Visas Dialogues in pieces, that would make her a much better character, even though she is already really nice currently.
04-08-2006, 01:23 PM
I like using them as Jedi in battles, except Bao-Dur--I think he is better as a tech specialist. But, yeah, their character development as new Jedi was lacking.
04-08-2006, 01:33 PM
I find that turning Bao-Dur into a Jedi is the most disapointing. Theres two things of dialogue and then BAAM he is now a Jedi Guardian. Atton had a lot of dialogue to get through, Mira was cool turning to a Jedi aswell as the Disciple and the Handmaiden. If you go darkside its rewarding to make the Disciple fall.
04-09-2006, 02:54 PM
Well, Bao have the personality to be a jedi for sure, but It would be wonderful to get more jedi-like dialogue with him after the training.
Mira have a nice sequence, but a bad followup.
Brianna's taining is somewhat tied to the story though.
Atton's is nice, and makes a nice story on its own, don really care much about Mical so can't tell. I just goes thru his jedi training part "for the sake of it" really, then again I don't like that character to start with.
04-09-2006, 03:18 PM
I don't know why so many people don't like the Disciple, at first I kinda didn't like him but now his character has kinda grown on me, its nice to have Atton and then the complete opposite with Mical.
04-09-2006, 03:25 PM
In addition to the alignment aspect there is the student aspect...
Anakin's reaction to Palpatine changed in Rots.
Mira still regards you as a bounty she has to baby sit, and Handmaiden doesn't act like "your disciple" at all. They gave us a couple hints of their reaction to being trained but thats all...you think it would have been too hard to add more in critical parts? How hard would it have been to add "Yes Master"
or "i pledge myself to your teachings" if you use you're Sith Master dialog choices? I Noticed there are rather limited varriance in all kotor II dialogue actually.
How cool would it have been to see Hanharr get surprised when his prey pulls a lightsaber on him? Perhaps they could have added a "strong Mira" Dialog if she turned Dark while conversing with him.
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