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View Full Version : The Ebon Hawk; whose ship is it really? SPOILERS!!


shinyjedi
04-11-2006, 12:21 AM
The secret narrator.

We talk a whole lot about Kriea the conniver in these forums, but T3 starts the game pretty high up the intelligence scale and is quite the little manipulator himself.

Remember, in the prelude it's T3 who gets the ship running and flies it to Peragus. In fact, Kriea and the exile are the only meatbags there, the rest are all droids.

On Peragus you learn that T3 shuts HIMSELF down. He remains so until the exile calls for him. At which point he finds a way to get the exile off the admin level. Okay, not a great way off, but a way off. (T3 gets THREE solo missions in TSL)

It’s T3 who, unordered, and while held by Atris and the handmaidens, finds the locations of the Jedi Masters and the recording of the exile’s trial aftermath.

It's T3 who gets the goods (entirely on his own, to include finding an accomplice) to get to G0-T0's yacht without any of the crew knowing what he's up to or even that he’s up to anything. An adventure during which he takes down--solo--the same number of HK50s that only a few levels earlier Exile, Kriea, and Atton together had their hands full with.

And when HK starts asking uncomfortable questions? T3 tunes him up and we hear no more about it. HK even later tells the exile that T3 should continue to provide all astrogation functions. Anybody starting to get suspicious yet?

T3 admits to the exile that he’s the one who locked the navicomputer, doesn’t he? And then claims to have deleted the memory of the reason from his own memory core.

In the shyrack cave, T3 appears as one of your allies arrayed against Kriea? T3? He's a droid! A tool! Isn't he?

How about the cut content? Originally you’re supposed to find out that it was T3 who’s been scouring the galaxy for the scattered pieces of HK47. How was he doing that?

Playing dark side? Try and sell T3, see how THAT works out for you.

G0-T0s break from the republic and its subsequent rise to become a major exchange crime boss in order to conform to the primary goal of its programming provides the final clue.

The question....okay, the gripe that keeps coming up everywhere is “how did the exile get the Hawk?” Hmm....Well, he got it from Kriea, or so it seems at first. The question should be “how did Kriea” get the Hawk. Always assuming she did in fact, get it.

See, she shows no particularly possessive feelings toward it, and speaks of her journey to find the exile almost as though she’d been a passenger. (She considers droids as little more than furniture, but speaks of “we” when telling the exile of the boarding of the Harbinger to affect the exile’s rescue.) Almost as though she still considers the Hawk Reven’s ship and under the control of Reven’s crew. Later, she suffers an outburst concerning Reven’s love for and extensive use of droids. Kind of bitter considering her hatred of the force, and the droids’ utter lack of it, no? You’d think she’d be better disposed toward droids. Unless, of course, she had another axe on the grinder concerning droids, or one in particular, at least.

And then, with the exile supposedly dead, when Kriea and Brianna return to Telos, they do so on a ship other than the Ebon Hawk. Why? It’s pretty evident that they could have taken it if they’d wanted. You find Atton laid out on the ground, after all. Almost as if Kriea hadn’t even tried to commandeer the ship. Or perhaps because she knew for sure she couldn’t? Like she knew categorically that the Hawk’s TRUE captain wouldn’t cooperate and that she couldn’t force him to short of destroying him, which would still leave her stranded and certainly weaker given his strength.
With all these clues, is it really so hard to figure out? The one character really driving TSL is the li’l tin Jedi (and the source of my username, I must admit)

T3 obviously decided, at some point, to stop waiting for Reven and follow his secondary orders. I mean, you watch the holo and see Carth/Bastilla giving instructions to T3 on how to act when/if Reven gets into trouble! So T3 waits patiently until he figures it's been long enough, fires the old scow up and goes looking for help.

We can only surmise how Kriea came into the picture; perhaps she was the first choice for rescuer, but T3 then realized how flawed she was. Time for plan B. Now who was that seemingly ruthless jedi Reven had talked about that time? The one who saw duty above all else? The one who’d given the final order at Malachor and had been so damaged by the darkness that had ensued? Perhaps such a one would be able where this old woman wasn’t? After all, duty had been something Reven had understood well. And to a droid, wasn’t duty god itself?

If the Ebon Hawk appears in K3, there won’t be any real question as to how it gets into the hands of the PC. It will be provided by the Hawk’s “captain” just like it was in K2. The bigger question will be, does the PC ever figure out who’s really in charge?

TSR
04-11-2006, 06:50 AM
wow. you have a lot of spare time., and i still have no idea what you're talking about. meh.

Alkonium
04-11-2006, 08:25 AM
I think I agree, but this technically should be in the K2 or K3 forum.

Darth SINner
04-11-2006, 08:31 AM
I know what he is saying. He is saying that t-3 is the master manipulator not kriea. the events of TSL is because of T-3. He went looking for someone to assist Revan and found Kriea then the exile.

KyleOfHarpenden
04-11-2006, 09:09 AM
ye T3 rules! maybe hes uncovered some hidden plotline or something for K3 like Revan is working through T3 that would make a lot of sence like GOTO that might be 1 of the big things in K3. But he's doing it all for Revan because droids are loyal so why doesnt he got and talk to carth and basitla about it?

Meatbag
04-11-2006, 10:45 AM
T3-M4 is one of the best characters ever. What you say may be true, but we can wait. But he doesn't remember quite a few things, doen't he? And why don't we see Mandalore recognize him?

RaV™
04-11-2006, 04:43 PM
That's a good question Mandalore/ Canderous should have recognized him as soon as he entered the Ebon Hawk. This is a great idea, but is it likely that T3 is the mastermind? OF course not. Just my 2 cents.

shinyjedi
04-11-2006, 07:57 PM
I'd wondered about Mandalore myself. You'll note that he also fails to recognize HK47. Perhaps he's one of those who consider droids furniture and can't or can't be bothered to tell them apart. I mean, apart from paint, how DO you tell one utility droid from another?

RaV™
04-11-2006, 08:04 PM
Well they just physically look different. I doubt Mandalore or anyone can think HK is T3's size and T3 is HK's size.

shinyjedi
04-11-2006, 11:03 PM
There was a utility droid on the Hawk during the prelude with the same physical appearance as T3. There was another on Citadel Station, and another on Nar Shadda.

It's kind of obvious that I wasn't suggesting Mandalore couldn't tell T3 from HK47. Gimme a break here and try not to be deliberately obtuse.

But if you didn't see them as anything more than tools, would you notice the difference between two of T3's archtype, particularly if you hadn't seen him in 5 years or so? Remember, other than that single mission, T3 didn't do much interacting in K1. He didn't even talk much.

Other than paint and personality, what sets HK47 apart from the HK50s? I'll give you a hint: the parts are largely interchangable. I'm guessing that, when it comes to non-weapon systems, they all look alike to good ol' Canderous.

Com Raven
04-12-2006, 09:12 AM
Moved the thread to the Telos Tourist Bureau.

Interesting theory, btw ;)

shinyjedi
04-13-2006, 02:09 AM
Just finished my latest runthrough and caught something in Kriea's summation of the companions that seems to support my theory.

http://wizz.home.bresnan.net/the%20small%20one.jpg

I'd forgotten this bit, but there it is :r2d

miraavery
04-13-2006, 02:40 AM
OMG! could you be right??? This could be a major plot line for K3... maybe the developers should employ u... T3 the next sith lord... the only droid sith lord EVER!

shinyjedi
04-13-2006, 02:57 AM
Snark if you will; the theory is no sillier than many, and far less silly than, for instance, pretty much ANYthing G0-T0 does in the game.

:nut: "you must save the galaxy, but I'm afraid you'll have to do it from inside that force cage, since I cannot allow you to leave. And, by the way, I'm not going to call off the bounty hunters who are out to kill you, since....er....I forgot.... uhm.... the phone number! Yeah, that's the ticket! The phone number!" :nut:

miraavery
04-13-2006, 03:24 AM
lol... but i think you might have a potential side quest at least for K3.. i mean only if the developers are at least as intellegent as you becaue i didnt even pick dat up until you pointed it out and i replayed K2

Beast-Thrasher
04-13-2006, 11:23 AM
It belonged to the Exile then before that I'm guessing Kreia or T3, before that Revan before that Davik Kang and before that I'm assuming Davik or one of his friends stole that ship from the guy you meet on Nar Shaddaa.

KyleOfHarpenden
04-13-2006, 12:49 PM
ye i guess But T3 cant be a sith lord i still think hes like GOTO acting thorugh revans orders maybe REVANS A DROID lol jks, But he could be like goto

Maverick5770
04-14-2006, 01:05 AM
I don't think T3 is a "master manipulator", he's just a spoof off of R2(in my opinion) He is always there to save everyones @$$, but he's not really a manipulator. Also doesn't it say somewhere in the game that Revan left T3 the ship when he went out into the outer rim?That is also sort of enforced by your picture. He isn't bad however. And droids aren't just tools, how dare you, they have some emotion and faithfulness. I do like you theory still.

shinyjedi
04-14-2006, 01:15 AM
I've never once said T3 is bad! Quite the contrary. But he does have an agenda, and he does pursue it steadfastly.




edit: it occurs to me that, while I allow for both sexes regarding the identity of the PC, I invariably refer to T3 as "he". How DOES one sex a non-humanoid droid?

Maverick5770
04-14-2006, 01:26 AM
Sorry about the misread. If T3 has an agenda, it is most likely to help the Exile find Revan, and the sex of a non humanoid droid is determined by it's personality chip.

PoiuyWired
04-16-2006, 01:46 AM
Well, when it comes to R2 and 3PO, R2 is definitely the "male" of the relationship!!!

But in general I do think the gender programming thingy is usually applied to only communication droids and such (ok, pleasure droids too but thats different)

As for T3 being "the one" behind everything, that is quite an interesting theory. Though I think T3 as the one with a specific instruction by an unknown party, rather than some "tin can jedi/sith" You don't have to be FS to be great!

Dark_lord_Cheez
04-16-2006, 03:46 PM
Very interesting idea. It will definately give me something to think about when I finally start a new game (with the Restoration project and M4-78 installed)

However, some points I would like to make regarding this all:


In the shyrack cave, T3 appears as one of your allies arrayed against Kriea? T3? He's a droid! A tool! Isn't he?

He is also one of the four characters that have joined your party no matter what prior to Korriban. The first four characters to join are; Kreia, Atton, Bao-dur, and T3... Atton, bao-dur and T3 are the first to array themselves against Kreia, followed by everyone else who has joined your party (if there is anyone else).

The fact that T3 is a droid has nothing to do with this scene. Think of Mira, or visas, or the disciple, do they say anything in the beginning of that conversation? They aren't droids, and yet they don't show up early on in that scene.

And also, the developers originally intended that after Atton says "guess again, Kreia", that *everyone* in your party comes in... (I don't recall seeing Hk, Mandalore, Hanharr, or others in that scene when I played games where they were already recruited) so, if you're asking why HK wasn't in that scene at all, just bear in mind, he wasn't the only one who got taken out.


How about the cut content? Originally you’re supposed to find out that it was T3 who’s been scouring the galaxy for the scattered pieces of HK47. How was he doing that?

This wasn't really that hard to figure out, seeing as T3 was the only character in the game who a) knew about hk, b) had a use for him, and c) was on the Ebon Hawk at the beginning of the game (seeing as HK's body could be found as early on as once you recieve the Ebon Hawk on Peragus, this is very important).

Playing dark side? Try and sell T3, see how THAT works out for you.

Do you mean selling him on Nar Shadaa, and then leaving the planet, to finish up all the other planets first? Or do you mean just selling him, and then continuing on with Nar Shadaa?

Because I've sold him before and completed Nar Shadaa, and nothing important really happens. Everything just goes about as it would have if I didn't sell him. (funny too, you don't seem to lose any influence with him after he rejoins your group at the end of Nar Shadaa)

And then, with the exile supposedly dead, when Kriea and Brianna return to Telos, they do so on a ship other than the Ebon Hawk. Why? It’s pretty evident that they could have taken it if they’d wanted. You find Atton laid out on the ground, after all. Almost as if Kriea hadn’t even tried to commandeer the ship. Or perhaps because she knew for sure she couldn’t? Like she knew categorically that the Hawk’s TRUE captain wouldn’t cooperate and that she couldn’t force him to short of destroying him, which would still leave her stranded and certainly weaker given his strength.

Uh... she left the Ebon Hawk alone because she wanted the Exile to follow her to Malachor, and then follow Revan's path into the unknown regions. The Ebon Hawk was the only ship with the information of where Revan had gone, if she took that from the exile, don't you think it'd be a little hard to follow after Revan? ;)


We can only surmise how Kriea came into the picture; perhaps she was the first choice for rescuer, but T3 then realized how flawed she was. Time for plan B. Now who was that seemingly ruthless jedi Reven had talked about that time? The one who saw duty above all else? The one who’d given the final order at Malachor and had been so damaged by the darkness that had ensued? Perhaps such a one would be able where this old woman wasn’t? After all, duty had been something Reven had understood well. And to a droid, wasn’t duty god itself?

Although this is an interesting observation, I believe you are forgetting something...

*(Major spoiler warning)*

The Exile's trial was private knowledge, it was locked away in the jedi archives, hidden from the public eye. However, Atris intentually 'leaked' this information out to the Republic, and then arranged for the exile to be carried to Telos by the Harbinger.

She did this because she wanted the sith to reveal themselves, and she thought that a jedi would be the greatest bait to lure them out with. However, because of her own carelessness (she was the one who leaked information about the jedi travelling to kataar, hoping that the sith would reveal themselves there. Unfortunately they did, and Nihillus laid waste to the entire planet), she was now the 'last of the jedi', and couldn't risk herself by letting the sith know where she was. Therefor, she used the exile as bait.

Judging by her reaction when you arrive on Telos, and when she tells you all of this at the end of the game, I doubt she anticipated you'd survive the sith's attack when they came for you on the harbinger.


Anyway, because of what Atris had done, every mercenary and bounty hunter in the galaxy knew almost everything about you already. HK even comments about how a holovid of the exile could be found practically everywhere on coruscant... which leads me to believe that it wasn't Revan that informed T3 about the exile...

And judging by how T3 was so set on repairing HK, and recoverring droids, I don't think it was his initial idea to seek out the exile in the first place.

Which leads me to this... Kreia has always been interested in the exile if you listen to her dialogue. And she makes it clear that the exile is her last hope at training a jedi as great as Revan. She admits that she has used you since the moment you awoke from the kolto tank, and had always known how it all must end...

I believe that it was in fact Kreia who sought out the exile, while T3 sought out as many droids as possible to aid in Revan's rescue.

I believe that Kreia snuck on board the Ebon Hawk, and using the same tactics she had used to shield herself from the disciple and the jedi masters, she shielded herself from the droids.

The odd thing about it all is though, that neither kreia, nor T3 seem to remember each other... at least, I've never seen any dialogue where they talk about knowing each other at all. So, if kreia shielded herself from the droids, how did she not notice T3? How did she use the Ebon Hawk to find the exile?



Anyway, my point is this... While T3 was trying to build up a group to search for Revan, he was doing so with what appeared to be only droids. T3 would have no way of knowing about kreia, as when Revan left, he/she still remembered only bits and pieces of their past, not enough to give accurate biographies of people from his/her past... only images, at least that's what carth leads you to believe when you speak to him in-game.

It appears to be kreia that was searching for the exile, so that she could use the 'last of the jedi' to spread her teachings.



However, if you think about it... who really is the true manipulator in this game? Atris manipulates the exile's return to bring an end to the sith, while Kreia manipulates the exile's path to get revenge on Nihillus and Sion, and stop Atris from becoming Darth Traya.

T3 downloads the information of the Jedi Masters, and the exile's trial in order to send the exile on a journey to reunite the jedi order.


Hell, even Mandalore (Canderous) isn't completely honest with the exile at first. He recognizes the Ebon Hawk right away, but when you talk to him about it, he smuggly says nothing about the ship, other than "this looks like a nice ship, where'd you get it?". And the reason for Mandalore to join your group is so that he can rebuild the mandalorian clans.

G0-t0 'uses' you to restabalize the republic, and reprograms bao-dur's remote to not do anything when the exile gives the command to destroy malachor...



who's the real manipulator? It's hard to say, everyone in this game has an agenda, everyone wants to use you to achieve some higher purpose. I think the true villain of the game isn't necessarilly Kreia, or atris, or nihillus, or even sion... The true enemy in this game is everyone around you, and you must decide whether you will submit to them, and give in to whatever they want, whether it be reuniting their clan, or becoming a greater jedi.

You decide who the true enemy is, you decide what you do about them. You decide who is trying to manipulate you, and you decide who you will manipulate to achieve whatever it is you're after.

shinyjedi
04-17-2006, 02:45 AM
Re: the scene in the shyrack cave



The fact that T3 is a droid has nothing to do with this scene. Think of Mira, or visas, or the disciple, do they say anything in the beginning of that conversation? They aren't droids, and yet they don't show up early on in that scene.



A valid point. It doesn't, however, go one way or another regarding the T3 as captain of the Ebon Hawk theory. I suppose it would depand on what meaning you give to the meeting. Is is Kriea projecting, or the Exile's inner mind sorting? The answer to that question would shed light on the meaning of T3's appearance. (always barring it just being the devs' desire to get as many sure fire NPCs in as possible and hang the story)

Re: T3 gathering the bits of HK47,



This wasn't really that hard to figure out, seeing as T3 was the only character in the game who a) knew about hk, b) had a use for him, and c) was on the Ebon Hawk at the beginning of the game (seeing as HK's body could be found as early on as once you recieve the Ebon Hawk on Peragus, this is very important).



The point remains that it was T3 gathering him up, a task which would have been nigh impossible had he been merely a passenger or handy power tool. The fact that he was able to gather the pieces up indicates a certain degree of control regarding destinations and activities while at those destinations.


Re: selling T3:



Do you mean selling him on Nar Shadaa, and then leaving the planet, to finish up all the other planets first? Or do you mean just selling him, and then continuing on with Nar Shadaa?

Because I've sold him before and completed Nar Shadaa, and nothing important really happens. Everything just goes about as it would have if I didn't sell him. (funny too, you don't seem to lose any influence with him after he rejoins your group at the end of Nar Shadaa)



The point is that he DOES rejoin the party. See, normally if you sell something, it's gone. T3 refuses to stay sold

Re: Kriea not taking the Hawk back to Telos


Uh... she left the Ebon Hawk alone because she wanted the Exile to follow her to Malachor, and then follow Revan's path into the unknown regions. The Ebon Hawk was the only ship with the information of where Revan had gone, if she took that from the exile, don't you think it'd be a little hard to follow after Revan? ;)



Another point that might or might not be valid. I'm still trying to work out how she gets from Dantooine to Telos at all when the EH is the only ship around bigger than a speeder. Is there transstellar force teleportation that I don't know about?

In any case, had she been able, there was no particular reason not to take the EH to Malachor. If the Exile died or didn't show up, she'd have the EH to troll for another candidate. If the Exile did show up, there would be the EH with all the nav data right there handy. Not that Exile could access it anyway. Were YOU able to in any of your playthroughs? I sure couldn't In going through the whole mess again, I still think my scenerio the more likely. Even given that Kriea's motives might not have been as pure as you credit them. I'm not entirely sure her plan wasn't to kill the Exile in the end. Going after Revan doesn't really spell the end of the force to me, and that had always been Kriea's goal right up until you "save" her in the final scene.




Re: the Exile's trial.



<snippage>

She did this because she wanted the sith to reveal themselves, and she thought that a jedi would be the greatest bait to lure them out with. However, because of her own carelessness (she was the one who leaked information about the jedi travelling to kataar, hoping that the sith would reveal themselves there. Unfortunately they did, and Nihillus laid waste to the entire planet), she was now the 'last of the jedi', and couldn't risk herself by letting the sith know where she was. Therefor, she used the exile as bait.

<snippage>

Anyway, because of what Atris had done, every mercenary and bounty hunter in the galaxy knew almost everything about you already. HK even comments about how a holovid of the exile could be found practically everywhere on coruscant...



Not trying to be the pot calling the kettle black here or anything, but that's a lot of conjecture crammed into a fairly tight space :)

True, the trial was private. The bit of holo T3 reveals was even more so. There's no indication anywhere that any of that bit existed anywhere but in Atris' private archives. There is no indication at all, anywhere that suggests Atris leaked the jedi meeting on Kataar, or that she was even attempting to draw the enemy out at that time. Keep in mind that, when Nihilous ate Kataar, Atris wasn't even close to being the last of the jedi. While it is possible that the reason she missed the meeting was foreknowledge, there isn't anything even vaguely resembling proof in that respect.

Her confession makes it pretty clear that she's the one who lured the Exile back into Republic space and then leaked the info of Exile's existance to all and sundry, but I rather doubt the holos released had anything to do with the trial. More likely just a simple still showing the Exile's likeness with the logo "here's a jedi for ya" or something similar.

In any case, the entire reason I mentioned the incident had nothing really to do with the actual snippet of information gleaned, but more the fact that he gleaned it. T3, throughout the game, exibits a level of independant will all out of proportion to his supposed status, and this was just another example of it.



which leads me to believe that it wasn't Revan that informed T3 about the exile...



Nor have I yet suggested that T3 is even working under Revan's orders. I believe Revan parked the EH, with T3 aboard and said something like: "wait here, I'll be back in a jiffy." I further believe that, after waiting a few jiffys and a couple extra for good measure, T3 assumed that Revan was in trouble and defaulted to secondary command. At which point, the orders shown in the Carth/Bastilla holo kicked in. T3 might let everyone believe he's still following Revan's orders, but I think that if he were, he'd still be parked in low orbit somewhere out past the rim.



And judging by how T3 was so set on repairing HK, and recoverring droids, I don't think it was his initial idea to seek out the exile in the first place.


The only droid we have any evidence of regarding T3s ministrations is HK47. There is no proof anywhere that he was trying to gather up a force of droids beyond the one he knew had travelled with Revan before.



I believe that Kreia snuck on board the Ebon Hawk, and using the same tactics she had used to shield herself from the disciple and the jedi masters, she shielded herself from the droids.


Except that Kriea cannot cloud the minds of droids. She cannot even read them; she admits as much when she's teaching exile to read thoughts. Not only is she limited to organics, she seems unable to gather up much from aliens, as evidenced by Bao Dur.


The odd thing about it all is though, that neither kreia, nor T3 seem to remember each other... at least, I've never seen any dialogue where they talk about knowing each other at all. So, if kreia shielded herself from the droids, how did she not notice T3? How did she use the Ebon Hawk to find the exile?


Why would Kriea know T3? Unless Revan rejoined Kriea (or vice versa) after the events of Kotor1, Kriea wouldn't ever have had anything to do with T3. And even then, would she have separated him out from the other "utility" droids on the ship? Or it could simply be that the only contact the two have had has been since the EH returned to Republic space with the little guy at the helm.


Anyway, my point is this... While T3 was trying to build up a group to search for Revan, he was doing so with what appeared to be only droids. T3 would have no way of knowing about kreia, as when Revan left, he/she still remembered only bits and pieces of their past, not enough to give accurate biographies of people from his/her past... only images, at least that's what carth leads you to believe when you speak to him in-game.


Again, no indication that T3 was even using droids other than HK47 and the few needed to help crew the ship (I can't remember exactly, but I think I counted 3 on board, not counting HK47; P3-CFD, and a couple of rubble piles that might have once been protocol droids). Kriea had been Revan's first teacher as well as his/her last. Whether T3 and Kriea had ever met prior to the search for the exile, it's arguably possible that T3 at least knew "of" her, as well as the exile. Remember, T3 had unfettered access to the ship's records for who knows how long before the game starts. There is also Revan's predaliction (which Kriea mentions) to get close to droids. Perhaps T3 was the "mirror" Revan spoke to, to get things off his/her chest. Perhaps T3 did a bit of research; remember, he was originally built as a security hacker, which task generally requires a bit of research ability.
The thing is, we'll never know (unless one of the writers 'fesses up) the hows or whys. I've just put together what I encountered in the game without relying on any more added but unsubstantiated information than was feasibly required.


However, if you think about it... who really is the true manipulator in this game? <much snippage>
who's the real manipulator? It's hard to say, everyone in this game has an agenda, everyone wants to use you to achieve some higher purpose. I think the true villain of the game isn't necessarilly Kreia, or atris, or nihillus, or even sion... .

These are all good points. The plot is wonderfully complex as are the motivations of your companions You have, however, not shown me anything to make me believe I was wrong.

KyleOfHarpenden
04-17-2006, 10:31 AM
hmmm intresting so atris was to blame for the downfall of the jedi(now i should have killed her) but T3 is a slimy one isnt he i mean he could just be working to get by, Or maybe these are just more loop holes and errors in TSL i mean it's made really fast so it was probally all acidental not trying 2 point figer but lucas arts rushed kotor2 alot!! And in the end there where so many errors! The storyline was weak and obvious they didnt show the characters right. All in All TSL shouldn't have done as well as it did because of the errors it made but KOTOR1 was good so people will buy the sequal TSL was good but was it that good?

Prime
04-17-2006, 10:53 AM
Keep in mind that T3 cannot use the Force, being a droid and all.

Beast-Thrasher
04-17-2006, 01:09 PM
There is no indication at all, anywhere that suggests Atris leaked the jedi meeting on Kataar, or that she was even attempting to draw the enemy out at that time.


Sorry to burst your bubble but your wrong. If you go to the official TSL site then fo to game info then chronicles and then part 13 you will read this....

One of the Order, JEDI MASTER ATRIS, gives in to her frustration and the collapse of the Jedi Order, and begins to delve into Sith holocrons to attempt to determine the nature of the threat facing the Jedi. Attempting to summon the remaining Jedi she has kept contact with, Atris attempts to call a Jedi Conclave under the strict agreement of secrecy on a Midrim world. She struggles to comprehend her actions as the Conclave is interrupted when every single Jedi attending vanishes without a trace. It is later discovered that all of them were savagely culled by Dark Side Sith Assassins under the command of DARTH NIHILUS. Unknown to the rest of the Jedi, Atris secretly leaked knowledge of the Jedi attending the Conclave in the hopes that the enemy would reveal themselves. However, the results were worse than Atris could have possibly imagined.

voila.

Melly
04-17-2006, 01:57 PM
Originally Posted by shinyjedi
There is no indication at all, anywhere that suggests Atris leaked the jedi meeting on Kataar, or that she was even attempting to draw the enemy out at that time.

And also this from the .tlk files:
Atris: {Contemptuous}I did not flee. I did what was necessary to fight the Sith - and preserve the last of the Jedi. {A little distant, like watching a scene far away} Yes... I sensed what would happen on Katarr. It was I who leaked knowledge of its presence in the hopes of drawing the Sith out. I will not deceive you... I knew what could happen there, but it had to be done to make the Sith reveal themselves. But I did not know the extent of their power - and what that meant for the Jedi. I will not underestimate them again.

shinyjedi
04-17-2006, 02:20 PM
I will confess that I haven't dissected the "OFficial" TSL website, so I hadn't read that. It would seem that Atris did, indeed, give the Jedi up. @melly, does that dialog ever show up in-game? Not doubting it, but just curious that I'd never seen it before. Still, if it didn't make the final cut, and as I'm not yet a modder, I'd never have occasion to see it.

@ beast thrasher: beyond the johnson swelling self congratulatory nature of the phrase "sorry to burst your bubble," what was the point of using it? We've been having what I thought was a thoughtful exchange of ideas here and the contentious nature of that phrase seems out of place. My bubble, if I had one, is not inviolate, and I have not yet had any problem with anybody with more information than I in disproving any of my theories.

Beast-Thrasher
04-17-2006, 02:32 PM
Just saying your wrong sounded a little mean, the part that you talked about,(Atris) well you were wide of the mark and I wanted to let you know. Perhaps I said sorry to burst your bubble because in what you said, you never mentioned that if anybody else knew anything on the matter if they could reply or that you weren't sure, you just wrote that there was no way of knowing that Atris leaked information on the whereabouts of the Conclave when infact there was. I didn't mean anything by it. Sometimes things on the net don't sound the way they do in person.

Melly
04-17-2006, 04:11 PM
@melly, does that dialog ever show up in-game? Not doubting it, but just curious that I'd never seen it before. Still, if it didn't make the final cut, and as I'm not yet a modder, I'd never have occasion to see it.


Not to my knowledge. :( I found it in the .tlk files when I was looking for something that Visas said about Katarr, but I've never heard it in game.

Master Alex
04-17-2006, 06:34 PM
Maybe Revan programmed T3-M4 so he would lead someone to find him. T3-M4 somehow picks up Kreia in the Ebon Hawk and because of her T3-M4 might have found you instead of the designated target ( like Bastila or some other Jedi). Or Kreia could tell what T3-M4 was doing and she manipulated the manipulator to taking you instead of someone else. Makes you think doesn' t it.

Melly
04-17-2006, 07:47 PM
T3 mentions to the Exile that he came looking for her specifically.

But why me? I was powerless... defenseless. You needed the last of the Jedi... the last hero of the Mandalorian Wars. Me.

or

You needed someone strong enough to fight the danger that was coming.

Also I don't think Kreia was on the Ebon Hawk originally (before it was attack by the Sith warship) Kreia says: When we intercepted the Harbinger, it was crippled, drifting in space. It was a simple matter to board the vessel and rescue you. {Sighs}Unknown to me, however, the Sith were already on board. Just as we made the jump to hyperspace, they fired upon us, nearly destroying the Ebon Hawk. How could she intercept the Harbinger if she was already on board the Ebon Hawk which was on board the Harbinger?

PoiuyWired
04-19-2006, 05:30 PM
Should we get back to the topic? This thread should be about EH and T3 mainly...

Actually, I would say that since T3 has been the default droid for EH for a long time the system on EH is reprogrammed/modified so much that any droid other than T3 would have a hard time flying it. So yeah, in a way T3 is a necessary part for the EH.

Yes we do know T3 being almost the only one working on EH for quite some long period of time, and probably ever since he joins the EH from Revan.

HerbieZ
04-19-2006, 05:38 PM
To be honest as T3 has pretty much got the T-Shirts, so to speak, i imagined a possible scene from Kotor 3. The player, exile, revan, bob, whatever gets a vision from the future and there is a humanoid man telling them about what happened to the ebon hawk and what happened in the past. This man is actually T3 as an advanced cybernetic lifeform (remember this is like 100 thousand years in the future) who appears suave much like James Bond and wears a T3 beanie so players get a clue that it's him.

Typical Responses aside.. I believe we have not found the true first owner of the Ebon Hawk yet.

deathdisco
04-20-2006, 11:20 PM
^^^^^^
How about a vision of the future where T3 get upgraded and a new designation...
R2D2 :r2d2:

Canderous_ordo1
05-23-2006, 05:25 AM
ive got a few hunches about the ebon hawk that i picked up in the game that i think the exchange stole the ebon hawk from the red eclipse then as we all know canderous worked for the echange so what i think he was there as extra guns to steal the ship from the red eclipse but they wernt able to get it back because of the planet lock down on taris therefore falling into davik hands

Darth Manus
05-23-2006, 12:00 PM
The Ebon Hawk never belonged to the Red Eclipse. It used to belong to that guy who shows up on Nar Shadaa, and he claims it was stolen from him near the end of the Mandalorian Wars, during a mid-rim run. Since Davik was the next known owner, one can assume that he either liked the ship's speed and had it stolen, or someone else did. Also, the way Davik talks about the ship makes it sound as if he already had it before the planetary blockade. Don't forget that the Sith went around confiscating all the heavy weapons and spaceships on Taris.

Ztalker
06-02-2006, 09:01 AM
^
^
The theory started AFTER the events you described, so the Red Eclipse has nothing to do with the shinyjedi's theory.

In fact, i kind of like it. I always felt that R2 was causing the events in Star Wars too. He brought Ben and Luke together, etc etc.

Good theory, but we'll have to wait till K3 to find out the truth, won't we? :)

PoiuyWired
06-02-2006, 02:05 PM
So... maybe T3 is what Skippy COULD HAVE BEEN if he had survived???

So T3 is the original Jedi Droid!!!

j/k

PS: For Skippy awareness read more EU!!! :3

lessthanjake2
08-18-2006, 02:25 AM
Heres what I think:

Revan went off by himself, and he couldnt take Bastila and all them cause he thought they would get corrupted by dark side powers wherever he was going. So once he got where he wanted to go, he sent T3 to find the Exile who he knew was not able to be corrupted completely by dark side powers because he became that whole echo in the force thing (and obviously because he was the only guy that wasnt corrupted or killed by Malachor V). So Revan figured the Exile would be his best ally in what was to come. He also wanted T3 to gather up droids because they are also not corruptable by darkness.

Kreia was also looking for the Exile to save him/her from the danger of the Sith assault orchestrated by Atris leaking info of the Exile. I think that Kreia could sense that the Ebon Hawk was trying to find the same thing she was, and joined forces (the EH is fast and a good ship, it was probably her fastest way of getting to the Exile).

After the whole Peragus thing, Kreia just wanted to evade the Sith long enough to teach the Exile enough so that he/she would become stronger than her. She even said she didnt know the Jedi Masters were still alive. T3 had other ideas. I think he was programmed by Revan to have The Exile trained again in the ways of the Force by real Jedi Masters (cause he had to be as powerful as possible to help Revan). In fulfilling that function, he found out where the remaining Masters were and gave that info to The Exile as well as the holovid of the trial, hoping that he/she would try to find the Masters and in doing so would subsequently learn stuff from them and learn along the way getting there.

Kreia complicates things with how she uses the Exile but in general T3 makes the plan work.

goldberry
08-18-2006, 05:16 AM
How could T3 be the manipulator if he has wiped all memory of his reasoning from his system? The only manipulator is Kreia, as she pretends to be an ally and then screws you over at the end. While T3, HK-47, and Canderous (Mandalore) know that something must be done, they haven't ever tried to manipulate the Exile asside from T3 getting the ship to him in the first place.

While on the subject of Revan, could I pose the question that while he decided he should have no attachments in the unknown regions, it seems coherant to the story that Zalbar would have gone with him (As he is a normal, non-psycotic wookie who honors his lifedebts properly.), and if Zalbar went, Mission would have gone with Zalbar. I can't remember if Bastilla went (though that was mentioned in one of T3's holo-recordings (WAHOO BACK ON TOPIC XD). Regardless, the attachment thing seemed to have died pretty quick...

PoiuyWired
08-19-2006, 04:29 PM
Bastila is trying to find Revan, but did not go with him(as per recording), probably got ditched or something.

Mission and Zalbar is not mentioned cause they can be killed with DS endings. Also, Revan probably would prefer them to stay, and would sneak out on them, definitely making Zalbar a really annoyed fluffball in the process. Well, they are a nice couple anyways, they can survive(if not killed by a DS Revan).

goldberry
08-19-2006, 06:23 PM
Mission and Zalbar is not mentioned cause they can be killed with DS endings.

While the rest of your post is fair enough (thanks for clearing up the thing with bastila btw.), the canon ending is LS, so Big Z and Mission are still alive.

DarthScribble
08-20-2006, 03:40 PM
And also this from the .tlk files:
Atris: {Contemptuous}I did not flee. I did what was necessary to fight the Sith - and preserve the last of the Jedi. {A little distant, like watching a scene far away} Yes... I sensed what would happen on Katarr. It was I who leaked knowledge of its presence in the hopes of drawing the Sith out. I will not deceive you... I knew what could happen there, but it had to be done to make the Sith reveal themselves. But I did not know the extent of their power - and what that meant for the Jedi. I will not underestimate them again.

Since it was asked, yeah, this quote is available in the first interaction with Atris, but it's a fairly complex (read: confusing) conversation tree, so I can see how most may miss it. I stumbled across it while attempting to provoke her (if memory serves...it's been a while now), but at any rate, I can guarantee it's there.

Btw, interesting theory here. I would be inclined to give it some weight to some extent. I too have always mused at how independent R2 is in the films and how he always seemed to know more than he was able/willing to communicate. I am fairly confident that T3 is at least a nod in that direction if not a blatant spoof, so it makes since that 'his' character would be the same.
Also, as a side, keep in mind that Lucas' own interpretation of how droids are treated in the SW universe is very much as slave labor. Some are appreciated and even loved, but most are expected to be seen and not heard unless request, and definitely not much more than a tool at best. They are basically ignored and taken for granted by most all sentients. That is why it is 'unusual' or 'irritating' to most SWU characters when one 'special' character has an affinity to droids. It seems odd to the 'galactic culture' as a whole and just wrong somehow. (Ref. Anikan, Revan, etc.) It's hard to see for us as fans b/c those "unusuals" (that are actually more common to us viewers) are the characters that we have gotten used to b/c they are more common in the SW books/movies than what the setting is assuming to be the norm. (*shew*)

Jediphile
08-20-2006, 08:10 PM
I do agree with most of the original theory on this topic. T3 is quite a manipulator, albeit one with far more benevolent intentions than Kreia. A few points...

First of all, T3 and HK went with Revan to the unknown regions. Bastila says in T3's holorecording that Revan would take T3 with him, and HK later tells us that while his memory has been wiped, he does remember that it was his master (meaning Revan) who did this.

Kreia: "The Sith is a belief. And its empire, the true Sith Empire, rules elsewhere.And Revan knew the true war is not against the Republic. It waits for us, beyond the Outer Rim. And he has gone to fight it, in his own way.He left the Ebon Hawk and its machines behind, for he knew he would not need them.And, like you, he knew he must leave all loves behind as well, no matter how deeply one cares for them. Because such attachments are not the way of the Jedi, and they would only bring doom to them both in the dark places where he now walks. It would have helped had he made her understand. But she was always strong-willed, that one, and did not understand war as Revan did."

The last bit speaks to Revan's non-droid companions (and particularly Bastila) and why they did not go with him. But did the droids go? Yes, they did, because they were on the Ebon Hawk, and the LS Exile learns this from Carth.

Carth: "We saved the Republic. But it was like the war didn't end for him. He would keep remembering things that he'd done, and it kept driving him.And I think he finally remembered something terrible that he'd done during the Mandalorian Wars. And he went to put an end to it.{Talking about Bastilla}He left a lot of people who cared about him behind. But I think he did it because he thought it was the right thing to do. But whatever he set out to do, I...I don't think he succeeded.And here you return, with his ship, without him. Yes, wherever he went, your ship's been there."

The navicomputer is locked, because Revan did not want anyone to follow him. T3 locked it. Kreia implies that she locked it, but what she really says is just that she has the means of controlling the ship. All she has is really the knowledge that T3 controls the ship. Because unlike the droids, she did not go with Revan to the unknown regions.

Kreia: "Because I did not know where he had gone. If he had asked... would I have gone? I do not know."

But Kreia did meet Revan before he went to the unknown regions, though.

Kreia: "He came to me, yes. Both before and after, before Revan knew himself.And after, in the times when Revan was coming into his own and learning he was more than he had been told."

It may be taken as a supposition that the time she refers to in the latter case is after the events of KotOR1, but I do think it fits. Revan needed to learn the location of the Sith Empire, and he learned that at the Trayus Academy on Malachor V after KotOR1. He met Kreia there, but did not trust her, since she was Darth Traya, and so did not take her with him or even trust her. He was there only for knowledge, and when he had it, he left again, leaving Kreia behind.

How Kreia reenters the story is then a good question. Personally I think she came looking for the Exile as a means to stage her own vengeance against Sion and, particularly, Nihilus. She knew full well that the Exile was the only one who could defeat Nihilus in spite of his power, and she used that to her advantage. But I don't think she was on the Ebon Hawk, though I'm not sure how she got there. She could have been hiding on the Sith warship or on a fourth ship (neither the Harbinger, EH, or the Sith warship), but we actually never learn the details of the prologue...

psychomonkey62
08-23-2006, 08:59 PM
I say he gets a spin-off.