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View Full Version : What is KISS? Is it outdated?


DarthMaul v.1/2
04-24-2006, 06:51 PM
:dmaul3:

What's up y'all?

Can someone give me the break-down on KISS?

- Is it still useful to MODding KotOR (Particulary TSL )?

- If it is useful, how so?

- Is it compatible with TSL , or just KotOR?

This is the 1 tool/utility for MODding KotOR and TSL that I could not find info on in the " sticky's" section - Is this because Fred's KT or other tools made it obsolete? I was just curious because I saw it mentioned (only briefly) in another thread.

Thanks in advance for the 411!


P.S. - I have to log out for a while, but I will be back later tonite to respond!
- DM.005 :dmaul3:

tk102
04-24-2006, 07:13 PM
Hi there DM1/2,
KISS is a mod installation system that is based on the free Nullsoft Scripting Installation System (NSIS -- http://www.nullsoft.com ). In functionality, it is comparable to TSLPatcher/ChangeEdit in that it is used to create installation files for mods, as well creating ERFs/RIMs/(!)BIFs. I've used NSIS before for other real-world distributions and while I like it, it does have a learning curve. I've never used KISS (or TSLPatcher for that matter, as most of my mods are small), but I have played with both of them. TSLPatcher and ChangeEdit have a GUI interface while KISS has no interface -- you must create the script yourself. Of course ChangeEdit/TSLPatcher also support dialog.tlk editing, SSF editing, NSS compiling, advanced GFF editing, etc... Given all this, and stoffe -mkb-'s excellent support and continual improvements, TSLPatcher has gained wide acceptance by modders on this forum.

DarthMaul v.1/2
04-24-2006, 09:24 PM
Hey, the great tk102! :urpdude:

Thanks for low-down, tk! So, basically KISS is an older version of TSLPatcher- I kind of figured that it was something along those lines, considering I never see anyone mention it (wll, almost never).

BTW, your KSE savegame editor is my favorite MOD/utility available for KotOR and TSL - all those options are BIG pimpin'! It may sound cheesy, but my favorite function is simply being able to change my party's names - I love being able to re-name my new apprentices Darth 'Whatever', great work all the way around here, man! :cool:

Also, I have D/L ALL the great MOD tools you've put out there for us, and I am now 'studyin' up' on them all as I am just getting started with MODding KotOR and TSL. Also, thanks for all the great tutorials, they are REALLY helping a nOOb out! :laughing:

I hope you won't mind me asking you some more MOD stuff in the future, I was hoping to be able to use the true Masters of MODding as a resource when I first decided to try MODding TSL and KotOR, and you definitely fit the description!

Thanks again,tk!

- DM.005 :maul5:

Darkkender
04-25-2006, 01:19 AM
One of the other things that KISS does is modify the chitin.key file when it modifies the ".bif" because of this it has had adverse effects with Kotor Tool. Fred has added support into KT for modified chitin.key for K1 but I'm not sure if the same applies to K2.

DarthMaul v.1/2
04-25-2006, 03:06 AM
One of the other things that KISS does is modify the chitin.key file when it modifies the ".bif" because of this it has had adverse effects with Kotor Tool. Fred has added support into KT for modified chitin.key for K1 but I'm not sure if the same applies to K2.
What's up, Darkkender! :smilsab

Sounds like my suspicions were right, KISS has been eclipsed by newer (better) tools, and it sounds like I should avoid this one altogether, and stick with the newer tools, huh? :dmaul3:

So, what you're saying is that I should kiss KISS good-bye? :laughing:

Thanks for the info, DK!

- DM.005 :maul5:

Darth333
04-25-2006, 10:32 AM
Not only Stoffe's patcher is easier to use but it doesn't modify the chitin.key. Not only this was posing problems with KotOR tool in the past (I believe it has been fixed) but it would also prevent you from installing the official patches in the event they were not installed before using KISS.

stoffe
04-25-2006, 11:03 AM
Not only Stoffe's patcher is easier to use but it doesn't modify the chitin.key. Not only this was posing problems with KotOR tool in the past (I believe it has been fixed) but it would also prevent you from installing the official patches in the event they were not installed before using KISS.

I'd imagine the same problem would arise with TSLPatcher installed mods that add new entries to dialog.tlk. But I don't think either is much of a problem as it currently stands, since LucasArts/Obsidian seems quite satisfied with the current state of the game (complete with the show stopper bug at the Telos Academy introduced with the 1.0b patch) and thus I doubt there will be any more patches any time soon. :)

That said, I also fail to see why you'd want to pack modded game resources into a BIF file. It'll only make maintaining compatibility with other mods that alters the same resources a whole lot more difficult than using override, and I doubt you'd gain any in-game performance by doing so. It'd also make it harder to remove a mod since you'd need to remove the BIF index from the chitin.key file.

I have only looked at KISS briefly since I was made aware of its existence (unfortunately after I'd already made the TSLPatcher since I didn't think anything like it existed), but I got the impression it can work with files in the override folder as well and not just put non MOD/RIM-capable files in a BIF.

* * *

@DarthMaul v.1/2:
In general I think you can say KISS and TSLPatcher are two different approaches to solving the same problem, that of making mods compatible with less manual tinkering required by the prospective mod user. KISS offers a more advanced, flexible scripted approach to be used with traditional Installer software, which may require more effort by the modder to learn. TSLPatcher is a simpler, more primitive solution that may be easier to work with if the Mod you want to use it for isn't too complex (and if you can get past my dubious GUI design.).

Personally I prefer being able to see what an installer does before I run it. This is why I chose to use an INI config file and a common folder containing the data files for TSLPatcher, rather than bake everything into a single EXE file like how most installers work. But that's a matter of taste I suppose, and who your imagined target group for the mod is. The single EXE may be less confusing for the normal mod users who aren't visiting this forum. :)

Darkkender
04-25-2006, 11:11 AM
So, what you're saying is that I should kiss KISS good-bye? :laughing:

From your mouth not mine. :D

But seriously I have made a silent promise to no longer outwardly trash talk this particular utility. Even if the makers of it rarely come to Holowan and have never listened to our feedback even though they try very hard for us to support this tool. Almost to a point of spamming a thread by jumping in and saying that somebody could use KISS and then letting it drop and not being seen again for another 3 months.

I'll admit I'm not one to usually bad mouth others work however there interaction with this community has left a foul taste in my mouth. However I would gladly welcome them in becoming active here at the Holowan if it meant that they would hear our concerns and offer solutions. Of course maybe Fred Tetra, tk102, cchagrin, Stoffe, & Darth333 have just spoiled us.

*Of course the above opinions are only those expressed by Darkkender on the subject. They in no way should be considered the views or opinions of Holowan Labs. These comments are not meant to be inflamitory however it can be understood as to where that impression could be left.

DarthMaul v.1/2
04-25-2006, 06:29 PM
Hey all! :dmaul3:

I was TRYING for the last hour to make 1 big post with quotes and replies for stoffe, darth333, and Darkkender - but the most annoying 'freeze' problem has been stopping my browser (IE 6.0) - I know, I know-I need to get Firefox, right? :mad2:

Anywho, I guess I'll just have to make this 'generic' post to say thanks to you guys for the info and help, so THANKS! :)

To darth333, I just wanted to personally THANK YOU ! for all the great resources and links you have in the "sticky" section- they are a huge help to a nOOb MODder like me! Also, you and the other modERATORS (especially ChAiNz.2da and RedHawke!), and the pro MODder members here have made me feel right at home here in a short period of time - I really appreciate it!

My only regret is that I didn't find you guys and this site alot sooner!

Please keep up the good work!

- DM.005 :maul5:

DM, no need to post and ask for the thread to be closed, so I deleted your post, just let it slide down the page and nature will do this for us. ;) -RH