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Darth Sceltor
01-27-2001, 01:51 AM
I'm having a philisophical debate of sorts with Nute. Shaft says:
my world is like Sparta. Yours is Athens. Who won that war?
Emperor James I says:
People nowadays look back and think it wouldn't be so bad to live in Athens. They also think, "Who would want to live in Sparta?"
Shaft says:
people who don't want have their city sacked and be raped and murdered...
Emperor James I says:
Great minds came from Athens.
Emperor James I says:
I often wonder how advanced earth would be had Rome not fallen, had we not become ignorant in the Middle Ages...
Shaft says:
and sparta destroyed them.
the germans destroyed rome.
Shaft says:
militarily powerful societies always win over the intellectual societies
Emperor James I says:
Soviet Union won over America? I think not.
Shaft says:
because we said it was only a matter of time until we destroyed them. our MILITARY won
Emperor James I says:
People don't look back and admire a civilization because they went in and conquered an advanced culture and set them back centuries.
Emperor James I says:
People admire a civilization because they developed and bettered themselves.
Shaft says:
because they were in turn conquered
Emperor James I says:
Ignorant societies conquered more advanced societies and all they gained was more land. They lost much more.
Shaft says:
Rome conquered Gaul and Carthage and made them the most powerful you know
Emperor James I says:
Rome also did more than conquer. All the german barbarians did was destroy a great society and set humanity (at least in europe) back centuries.
Emperor James I says:
I WILL admit that Rome was corrupt and had problems by the time of its downfall, but it DID preserve its ideas and it DID contribute greatly to civilization.
Shaft says:
but who WON? the military societies
Emperor James I says:
What is the POINT of conquering somebody? All it proves is that you can kill people and steal stuff from them.
Shaft says:
that is the piont
Shaft says:
*point
Emperor James I says:
Killing is POINTLESS
Shaft says:
Alexander the Great is GREAT because he conquered the WORLD
Emperor James I says:
He also DIED at 30.
Shaft says:
because he got SICK...
Emperor James I says:
Hitler also conquered much, but look at him. He KILLED HIMSELF. No one (that is sane) admires him today.
Shaft says:
i do. the man was a master of demagougery
Emperor James I says:
He also is the 2nd biggest BUTCHER of all time.
Emperor James I says:
Stalin being the first.
Shaft says:
he's more like fifth or sixth...the only reason they SAY he was was because he started WWII
Emperor James I says:
Hitler was ****head.
Shaft says:
the guy knew how to wrap a country around his finger...
Emperor James I says:
He also knew how to kill millions for NO GOOD REASON.
Shaft says:
hitler didn't kill anyone....i don't equate the order and the act
Shaft says:
the head of the SS ordered most of the executions actually
Emperor James I says:
He was the maniac who lead people to believe people should be killed.

That's the conversation as of now. Now I ask, am I the ONLY one that thinks that people, such as Hitler who thought it neccessary to kill MILLIONS to acheive his goals are evil?? Who admires the Germanic Invaders for destroying Rome? Who thinks the Spartans great for conqering Athens? I rant on and on because I belive killing is WRONG and so is destroying societies.

K_Kinnison
01-27-2001, 02:04 AM
THis is a morality issue. And following orders. I dont want ot bring too much religion into it, but here is what I have to say.

Murder is wrong, killing is wrong if it is murder.

If i was in the Armed forces, and i was told by my superior to kill vietnamese becasue thye are killing civilians, i would.

If I was told to kill a small village of veitmanse because my commanding officer didn't like them, then i would have to decline.

Wars are fought because people belive one thing, and someone else belives anoteher. Sometimes thier leaders Lie to thier soldiers and that is the biggest crime.

If a person broke into your huse and had intent to harm you,and your family.. would you kill him? YOu are darn right you should. Does taht make it right, no, killing is never a nice thing. But sometimes it is a neccesary evil.

Nute Gunray
01-27-2001, 02:08 AM
man those spartans beat the crap out of athens...

Admiral
01-27-2001, 02:42 AM
Hitler is a sick individual. Here are some death tolls. In World War I and II over 40 million died of those 6 million were of the Jewish faith. Over 70000 americans died in Vietnam.

I admire the Roman Empire because of their tactics they used to conquer the world. A pure military society can never survive, the Soviet Union only built weapons no lururixes that made the workers not like their jobs and as such they didn't do a good job, the Soviet Union fell. Sparta was military and would not have advanced themselves. Athens invented democracy and we would not have been here with out them.

Murder is wrong, but killing is not necessarily murder, in combat you kill but do not comit murder. I am a patriot for the US, and I will fight in any war my country needs me to fight. Wars are started for 4 reasons. 1. power 2. land 3. religion 4.because they can

Nute you forget a couple of things. Hitler ordered the extermination of the Jews, he order them to be hunted down. Hitler was a carzy and could wind up a crowd, he had childern fight for him.

The SS that actually killed him are monsters that deserve to be hunted down and and tortured then strangled to death while people spit upon them, but let me make a difference the front line SS were elite soldiers and not the butchers in the camps, the soldiers I respect for their skill.

A society can only remain strong with both a military and culture one with out the other will not work. War is necessary sometimes to get dictator out of power.

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"Dulce bellum inexpertis."
(Sweet is war to those who have never experinced it.) Roman Proverb

TheRogue 3000
01-27-2001, 05:09 AM
I dunno guys. The Spartans do have the upper hand with the super cheer!

SNL joke.

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Admiral
01-27-2001, 05:53 AM
finds hammer and chases Rogue3000.

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"Dulce bellum inexpertis."
(Sweet is war to those who have never experinced it.) Roman Proverb

Nute Gunray
01-27-2001, 06:48 AM
Originally posted by Admiral:
Nute you forget a couple of things. Hitler ordered the extermination of the Jews, he order them to be hunted down. Hitler was a carzy and could wind up a crowd, he had childern fight for him.

Julius Streicher was responsible for that, not Hitler.



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The virtues of Pokemon are lost in a sea of animal warfare and Nurse Joy's miniskirt.

Innror
01-27-2001, 11:34 AM
Hitler was indeed responsible for the murder of the jews. He may not have given the direct order, but he certainly approved of the decision to kill them. In fact, at the very end before he died, he boasted that he at least managed to rid Europe of the jews. The fact that he didn't give the direct order is irrelevant, since the SS was his personal army, and Himmler was always trying to determine the will of the Fuehrer, thereby setting in motion the Holocaust which Hitler totally approved of. Another interesting fact is that not only the SS was involved in jew killing, but also the german army. Try reading the book "Hitlers army" by Omer Bartov or "Ordinary men" by Christopher Browning, both books are recognised by historians as great books.

Flying Beastie
01-27-2001, 02:51 PM
Well, I dislike war just on general principle. I'm not a pacifist (and I'll beat anyone who says I am http://www.xwingalliance.com/forums/wink.gif ), but I agree with the explanation of war that Mara Jade gave in one of the NJO books (the title escapes me at the moment):

War is bad because it's contrary to nature: political power, resources, territorial expansion, these are things that don't exist in nature. The only things animals fight for are survival, defence, and to maintain territory (which falls into defence). Note that if food is plentiful, even carnivores won't attack needlessly --lions have been known to let antelope wander right up to them because they're not hungry.

That said however, I do appreciate artistry, including combat artistry. There's a certain appeal to being considered "best of the best."

War should be fought one-on-one, between skilled opponents, not a hundred men with swords running and screaming at each other.

There's nothing particularly artistic about 100 men running at each other with swords and trying to hack through as many bodies as possible before they get killed. This is also why I don't particularly like guns (or cinematic gun fights); there's no skill involved in walking into a room and spraying ammunition around (as in most movies). I'm more impressed by a fighter who can snap-shoot, while in motion, against a moving target, amidst distractions (alarms, explosions, screaming) and disable the target with one bullet into a small target (as Heero Yuy would).

I don't (didn't?) like the Romans because, well, they weren't warriors, they were butchers. Very good butchers, of course, but butchers nonetheless.

I loathe the Nazi philosophy as it runs counter to everything that I believe in, but I do respect (and even admire) the Luftwaffe --whatever you say about the Germans, they had great pilots. I respect Hitler's oratorial ability (because I have no public speaking skills worth mentioning), the same way I would respect a pit viper or a tarantula. Dangerous and untrustworthy, but damn good at its job.

Note that I put "evil" in quotation marks. That's one of my philosophies; I don't believe in evil.

Don't get me wrong, there are some things that I consider wrong, but I appreciate that it's all a matter of perspective. No matter what Hitler did, he or members of his party believed it to be necessary for the greater good. Were they right? No, but that doesn't make them evil, just mistaken and opposed to the majority of other views.

Senator Palpatine created a galaxy-wide tyranic Empire because he thought it was the only way to uphold/impose order on the lawlessness and corruption of the galaxy.

Senator Kelly tried to gather mutants into concentration camps because he believed they would abuse their powers.

Gul Dukat committed a coup, precipitated and interstellar war, and allowed the Dominion a foothold in the Alpha Quadrant because he believed it would make Cardassia strong (and weakness = extinction).

Satan rebelled against Heaven because he refused to spend his eternity bowing to (what he percieved as) a tyranical regime.

Everything comes down to perspective, and I refuse to kill someone just for doing what they think is right. I find it much more effective (and artistic) to convince them to change their approach, to compromise, to learn about the opposite point of view.

BTW, I prefer Athens because (as a pagan), one of my patron spirits is Athena, goddess of Wisdom, although I do understand Sparta's aggression.

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"Do fish-people eat fish, or would that be like humans eating monkeys?"
"Humans do eat monkeys. In fact humans eat other humans. . . Y'know, as a species, we are really quite unpleasant."

Admiral
01-27-2001, 07:43 PM
I like the roman legions, they did butcher people but they also were a well trained military with excellent military tactics. Also I find an atristry with a hundred men swing swords, there is skill in being able to do that, or of the bowman that trained for life on his skill.

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"Dulce bellum inexpertis."
(Sweet is war to those who have never experinced it.) Roman Proverb

Nute Gunray
01-28-2001, 12:26 AM
The only things I truly admire about the Third Reich are:
1) undeniable swift and efficient use of mechanized infantry and armored units.
2) Hitler's speaking skills. (I mean, holy crap that guy knew what he was doing)
3) Erwin Rommel and the rest of the high ranking Wehrmacht commanders. (they basically told the rest of the military command to screw ideology and fight the war.)
4) this one is an interesting story which will be explained: the guts to FINALLY create Total War.
At some point in 1940, a small group of German bombers were tasked with bombing some minor target in Southern England. The weather was poor and it was night. Eventually, the bombers got lost in the darkness and clouds. After a very long time, they had a decision to make: they couldn't find their target and they barely had the fuel to make it home. What should they do? The relatively young commander of the group decided to turn for home and face the wrath of his superiors for aborting the mission. Then he made a decision that probably wound up saving his career (and life...): he ordered the bombers to dump their bombs to lighten themselves and conserve fuel. Those bombs fell on London itself. The Nazis were stuck. They had bombed a city and killed ONLY civilians. They couldn't back out it and claim it was an accident. There was a war on. The Luftwaffe decided to go with it and launch an all out aerial campaign against an urban target. They basically decided to do what was one of the most obvious things to do in war: demoralize the civilians and destroy the factors of war production.

Psycho Tycho
01-28-2001, 12:29 AM
I don't understand any of this topic.

And this is my 900th post.

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Admiral
01-28-2001, 01:20 AM
I agree with you on those points Nute.

------------------
"Dulce bellum inexpertis."
(Sweet is war to those who have never experinced it.) Roman Proverb

Zoom Rabbit
01-28-2001, 05:58 AM
I agree that that was Psycho Tycho's 900th post!

Innror
01-28-2001, 06:50 PM
That is nonsense about the bombing of London being a new tactic for the germans. They had already attacked Warsaw and Rotterdam with heavy bombings, thereby destroying plenty of civilian targets. And they didn't manage to demoralize the english population, on the contrary they became even more determined to hold out. The same thing happened when the allied bombed the german cities, the germans became more determined to fight on. And the generals weren't anti-nazi, quite contrary. Especially on the eastern front they totally approved of killings of POW's, jews, civilians and socalled "partisans", which in most cases were innocent civilians, often local jews. Once again i recommend the book "Hitlers army" by Omer Bartov, excellent book.

Nute Gunray
01-28-2001, 08:00 PM
the stuff i've read all pointed to London being a prize city, like Paris. More of something to TAKE than destroy, but they were stuck after they bombed it accidentally.
The British, like the Russians and probably Americans, don't seem to be the of people you can break....

Admiral
01-28-2001, 08:21 PM
WWII, was definetly a war that needed to be fought. I find it scary to think of what would happen if we lost.

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"Dulce bellum inexpertis."
(Sweet is war to those who have never experinced it.) Roman Proverb

JR2000Z
01-28-2001, 09:47 PM
Great balls of fire! Those are big posts!
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