PDA

View Full Version : Little Changes I'd like to see for Enhanced 0.1.0


JRHockney*
06-02-2006, 02:16 PM
Since I'd like the newest Enhanced to get out as quickly as possible, here's a "to-do" list of little things that I think should be done to it first in order to make this release the best and most balanced yet. Most of this list is brought over from the saber suggestions thread (not in order of importance):


1. balance blue style somehow. I would recommend making the slowbounce in it longer (because it is VERY fast) or making all the styles slowbounces that fast, which might serve to make the regular slowbounces in general more like reversals.

2. Here's an idea to make the attack fake more realistic, very useful, but balanced. This might only be made this way for the next build because me and razor had other ideas, but it would still be worth it:

a. Make the attack fake only parryable by attack parries and swings, but if you press the correct parry direction for normal swing, you will reduce the damage of the hit.

b. When an attack fake hits, it causes a block animation that is the time length of the old block animation (thus making it useful for starting combos.)

c. If you hit a person running with an attack fake, they get slow bounced unless they press the proper parry direction.

Yeah, this would definitely be more realistic. It also wouldn't be too far of a stretch from the way it was in 0.0.9, which alot of people are use to at the moment.

3. Possibly make force powers no longer workable from behind. Its almost impossible to win two on one when someone starts spamming them. Heck maybe they just shouldn't work on saber weilders at all until 50% DP? (anyone agree here?

4. Do something different with the saber lock. I suggest just making them cause mishaps on the loser. The other ideas I have for this are just too complex to complete before the next build.

5. Fix the bots in the coop mode so they do full swings and maybe behave a bit more like tabbots. A few more maps might be nice too.

6. Get rid of the 2 FP cost for the staff and maybe dual. I just dont think the staff needs it anymore. This may just require more testing in general, but the next build should help us make final decisions about those.

7. Enable people in a regular slow bounce to be able to move very slowly (but not in heavy bounce). Me and razor talked about doing it like this to make regular slow bounces more like reversals than stuns.

8. If any work has been done on adding keshires blocking anims, now would probably be a good time to add them. If not, nevermind.

9. Port the MB2 saber trail code. They really make the combat look so much smoother and would really help enhanced.

10. I still think the non explosive guns (except the repeater) should do a bit more DP damage until we can get a better idea of what kind of a balance we want to achieve. The rockets and grenades are WAAY too much stronger and useful. The charged shot of the disruptor Should especialy be stronger. because its the closest think we have to a sniper rifle. In fact, I think side and rear hits with it should be near fatal with this shot.

11. Do something to make those "lightning" slashes at close range go away. I say either make the hit only do full damage when it hits towards the middle of the swing and grealy lessen the damage at the beginning of the swing, or do the invisible barrier idea I had before.

12. We might also want to do something to aqua style because it just seems to get mowed over by the other styles.

13. Btw Razor, would it be possible to have the bots sometimes press alt attack when they get slowbounced so they can absorb some kicks? Also, it would be nice to see them kick maybe every third or so time they see you in a slowbounce. Who cares if they suck at hitting you on the ground, their bound to hit you sometimes (they hit me alot when I get knocked down)

Thats probably more than enough. Anyone else want any little things changed or fixed?

UDM
06-02-2006, 09:26 PM
Enhanced 010? I thought its still at 007?

Me thinks I must really be playing the wrong version after all...

JRHockney*
06-02-2006, 10:00 PM
Enhanced 010? I thought its still at 007?

Me thinks I must really be playing the wrong version after all...

Um.... LOL. That might explain a few things. Yeah. The most recent version is 0.0.9a. You have to download 0.0.9 and its patch. Alot of things have been changed since 0.0.7. Read the manual in the 0.0.9 Enhanced folder to see what has changed. I was wondering why it said 0.0.7 in the trailer! :p

UDM
06-02-2006, 10:11 PM
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Shoot me...just shoot me...

Where do I download it?

-edit-

ok im downloading this. This is weird, there wasn't a link to enhanced 0.0.9 on the website at all, so I had to manually type the link

Original link was http://ojp.jediknight.net/files/betas/ojp_enhanced_007.zip

I changed it to http://ojp.jediknight.net/files/betas/ojp_enhanced_009.zip

And hey Im downloading it now! lol

http://img424.imageshack.us/img424/5920/untitled5ra.jpg

JRHockney*
06-03-2006, 05:08 AM
Yep, that explains alot! LOL! Ask me if you have any questions. Funny thing is, half the stuff I asked you to add in the trailer isnt even in 0.0.7! LOL. Man, if you thought the 0.0.7 bots were tough..... (does an evil laugh)

Maxstate
06-03-2006, 05:11 AM
Yep, its one of the biggest reasons noobs dont like OJP.
Even if they see the servers they cant connect to them because they have the wrong version, I almost always see errors like " timed out" when people connect to the server ( and I' ll tell you, it happens quite often).
Please update the site Ace, we're losing valuable players this way.

UDM
06-03-2006, 05:23 AM
Yeah I just bugged him through email :P

Wow OJP 009 is really different from 007. Much harder, even with initiate bots, they parry almost every attack I have. It's almost like they're on steroids. Which is why I prefer to play with humans anyway, since bots always have an advantage lol

JRHockney*
06-03-2006, 05:33 AM
Yeah I just bugged him through email :P

Wow OJP 009 is really different from 007. Much harder, even with initiate bots, they parry almost every attack I have. It's almost like they're on steroids. Which is why I prefer to play with humans anyway, since bots always have an advantage lol

Comboing is the key and anticipating which way they are walking. They actually suck at purposely parry you, they just happen to be walking in the right parry direction. And remember, the bots cant block the slowbounce kick combo yet, so if your getting murdered by a bot, do that combo to get back in the game. Also, Staff and Dual sabers are a bit unbalance in 0.0.9a. If a dual saber guy loses his saber and starts swing, hit him with lightning because there is a bug that will make him unparryable and almost impossible to beat otherwise.

Btw Razor, would it be possible to have the bots sometimes press alt attack when they get slowbounced so they can absorb some kicks? Also, it would be nice to see them kick maybe every third or so time they see you in a slowbounce. Who cares if they suck at hitting you on the ground, their bound to hit you sometimes (they hit me alot when I get knocked down)

UDM
06-03-2006, 05:37 AM
btw hockney I pmed you

razorace
06-03-2006, 01:45 PM
Yep, its one of the biggest reasons noobs dont like OJP.
Even if they see the servers they cant connect to them because they have the wrong version, I almost always see errors like " timed out" when people connect to the server ( and I' ll tell you, it happens quite often).
Please update the site Ace, we're losing valuable players this way.
Well, that's frustrating! I don't actually know how to update the distros page. That's Samuel Davis's department (the webmaster). Bug him about it. (his email is on the website)

I'll look into learning how to update the page myself but that might take a while. :)

Vruki Salet
06-03-2006, 01:47 PM
Any chance of getting your own site, like "openjediproject.com" or something?

razorace
06-03-2006, 02:09 PM
Not likely. I'm too cheap to spend money on OJP. :)

Vruki Salet
06-03-2006, 02:28 PM
I was thinking perhaps someone(s) could pitch in for it. Easy for me to say since I have all of $0.00 to contribute but if the idea is floating around then someday an OJP sugardaddy might appear.

Hey while you're reading this thread I'm putting in a plug for that old realtrace in the basic code. :stick:

razorace
06-03-2006, 08:12 PM
It would have to be a pretty steady flow of donations to be able to pay monthly fees for stuff. Plus, there's a ethical question of weither or not we can ethically take money for a game mod that's not legally allowed to make money.

Vruki Salet
06-03-2006, 08:22 PM
Taking money to host a website about a mod and host files != Taking money to profit off of sale of or use of your mod

- says I anyway. Besides it doesn't have to be $ directly. Someone could register a name and offer hosting space or rent hosting space for an OJP site without ever giving you a cent personally, if that made you feel better.

UDM
06-03-2006, 08:59 PM
Cheap hosts...hmmm...

I may be able to contribute to a cheap server if monthly data outflow isn't too large. You know, like $5-$10 these cheap servers that are meant for anything but downloading large files...

I'll sniff around in my spare time for cheap hosts. You just keep working on the mod razor :P

-edit-

Whooppee doo, kudos to Google, I've just found a local provider that does this. I'll sniff around for more, so don't worry about it in the meantime

Wow when you think of how much you pay for a one time service, they're really not cheap. I guess we'll be sticking around with jediknight.net for a while more, unless Fairy Godmother appears =\

JRHockney*
06-03-2006, 10:35 PM
Oh, we can all chip in for a website, right?! :sign2: (does an evil laugh)

Some good ideas here guys. So good in fact that I'm starting to forget what THIS THREAD WAS ABOUT IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!

Not that I don't want OJP to have its own professional website or anything. Maybe we can recruit somebody who can do it that believes in the mod as much as we do?!!....*cough*wishfulthinking*coughs*

razorace
06-04-2006, 12:29 AM
Good point. The donations discussion really belongs in the Supporting OJP thread.

JRHockney*
06-04-2006, 04:38 PM
Sooooo, Razor. What do you think about these changes that I suggested and with these in mind, do you think it would be possible to get a new version of Enhnaced out by Thursday (before I leave town)?

razorace
06-04-2006, 05:01 PM
It's not going to happen by then. I haven't even started on things yet. Still spending time with house guests.

JRHockney*
06-04-2006, 08:39 PM
It's not going to happen by then. I haven't even started on things yet. Still spending time with house guests.

(sign) This is going to be a long trip. I don't think they have much Wifi in Mexico: :p

Most of the things on the list are little things ya know, and they don't all have to be done necessarily. I'm not the only one in this community who is getting restless for a new build, and it shouldn't be delayed just on my account of what needs to be done. But then again, this is the big 1.0, more or less. Do what you think is fair.

razorace
06-05-2006, 12:38 AM
You gotta be patient. Quality work takes time. :)

JRHockney*
06-05-2006, 03:50 AM
You gotta be patient. Quality work takes time. :)

Yeah, I know. Its just that after more than two weeks of staring at the old bugs in 0.0.9, most of which we've already fixed for the new version is starting to make me anxious. I'm especially reminded of the fact that I originally recommended the jump button as a kick block, and everytime I press jump at the end of a slow bounce in order to block a late kick and end up jumping and lose 1/4 of may FP, I'm reminded about how badly thought out that was! LOL. You even had a bad feeling about it. Its little things like that that make me more ready for the new version, but thats just me so pay no attention. :nut:

Actually, I just had a thought along those lines: the fact that we changed the the block to alt attack is good, but I'm a bit worried that to many people will unitentially kick when their slow bounce is over (I saw this happen a few times on the code server). Maybe we should make it so that you only have to tap the alt attack once and your safe for the rest of the slowbounce? Good idea?

JackBaldy
06-05-2006, 09:52 PM
Would you like a lollipop with that? =P Nah but really, that sounds to easy :P

JRHockney*
06-05-2006, 10:08 PM
Would you like a lollipop with that? =P Nah but really, that sounds to easy :P

I guess its not that big of a deal. You can always not press any direction and just hold alt attack to be safe, but I was just worried that learning to do it would frustrate the heck out of noobs. Its instinct to be pressing away from your attack when your in a slow bounce and adding alt attack to that makes a person kick (which could be a very bad thing in that situation). I suppose that added complexity wouldnt be too bad, but at the same time, we dont want to chase away new players.

UDM
06-05-2006, 10:38 PM
Current system works fine for me, I hardly unintentionally kick :)

Sushi_CW
06-05-2006, 10:48 PM
The current system works pretty well, but what about using crouch instead? That way, there wouldn't be the extra jump, and you wouldn't need to have that silly looking backflip animation. Just make it so that players can crouch even when slowbounced, and that anyone who is crouched can't be kicked over. Also, the attacker would know that kicking is useless since the defender would be obviously crouched.

JackBaldy
06-06-2006, 12:13 AM
To be honest I am more for a complex system even if it means you have to read a manual. Like OJP's current system, complex, but because of the complexity it is extremely good in my opinion. Simply put, I am more for complex and skillful system than an easier less complex more noob friendly system. Dumbing down the system isn't an answer, trust me... xD

Maxstate
06-06-2006, 03:16 AM
To be honest I am more for a complex system even if it means you have to read a manual. Like OJP's current system, complex, but because of the complexity it is extremely good in my opinion. Simply put, I am more for complex and skillful system than an easier less complex more noob friendly system. Dumbing down the system isn't an answer, trust me... xD
What he said.

JRHockney*
06-06-2006, 04:09 AM
The current system works pretty well, but what about using crouch instead? That way, there wouldn't be the extra jump, and you wouldn't need to have that silly looking backflip animation. Just make it so that players can crouch even when slowbounced, and that anyone who is crouched can't be kicked over. Also, the attacker would know that kicking is useless since the defender would be obviously crouched.

Hmm, thats a really good idea! It wouldn't have the same problems as the other two. Geez, why didnt I think of that in the first place! LOL

And I am not by any means trying to dumb down the system for noobs, but there is a difference between complexity and annoying features that are potential exploits. I've been pushing for more complexity since 0.0.3 and I have come up with several ideas in order to increase the complexity further, many of which have been approved and will end up in a future version unless plans change. Little things like this (what I've been talking about above) are not worth the trouble when there is a better solution (like what Sushi just suggested).

JackBaldy
06-06-2006, 04:48 AM
Well what I was trying to say was, countering kick would be too easy. Even with just crouching. Since it won't effect jedi/sith outside of slowbounce, and it puts you in a world of trouble (no blocking etc), then what is the point in using it? Holding crouch wouldn't penalize your opponent in anyway, completely easy to do.. and would counter kicking, I say just remove it then lol.

JRHockney*
06-06-2006, 08:15 AM
Well what I was trying to say was, countering kick would be too easy. Even with just crouching. Since it won't effect jedi/sith outside of slowbounce, and it puts you in a world of trouble (no blocking etc), then what is the point in using it? Holding crouch wouldn't penalize your opponent in anyway, completely easy to do.. and would counter kicking, I say just remove it then lol.

The whole kicking over thing was never meant to be the timing trap it is right now. The way it is right now, all you have to do is learn to kick him torward the end of their slow bounce and they either fall over or like jump and waste DP. It was never meant to be like that and it is already changed to alt attack in the code anyways. Besides, the slowbounce-to-kick can happen fast enough to where the opponent doesnt remember to press crouch anyways. Maybe we can create an alternative move if its such an issue.

razorace
06-06-2006, 01:40 PM
So, the general consensious is to switch the button from kick to crouch then?

Maxstate
06-06-2006, 02:00 PM
MB-like crouch spam annoyed the **** outta me.. but I dont think my opinion will change much, so do as you please.

JRHockney*
06-06-2006, 03:21 PM
So, the general consensious is to switch the button from kick to crouch then?

Um...I'm not sure. LOL. There are a few different opinions. I starting to think I should make a poll. But honestly, for what we were originally trying to occomplish with added a kick block (basically to avoid overuse and spam of the kick), the crouch is the best idea I think.

Although jack has a point about not making it too simple. We should probably start think of another move that can be used on a slowbounce that can also be blocked by a different button. Maybe a slower version of the MB2 slap!!! LOL! :p Actually, the saber disarm move using the saberlock anim idea that I came up with a while ago might be a good possibility for this too.

razorace
06-06-2006, 08:31 PM
Polling it sounds like a good idea.

Sushi_CW
06-06-2006, 09:21 PM
I suppose there is a possibility that people will instinctively crouch when slowbounced, all the time. This would be lame. :) To counterbalance that, how about making it so that you can't parry while crouched? This would avoid crouch spamming, and make it so the defender has to guess whether or not the attacker will kick or swing.

While I'm at it, I'd like to raise the suggestion again that lunges be parryable. That means that in a bounce/slowbounce situation, the attacker would have three basic options: normal swing, lunge, or kick. The defender would have means of countering any one of these, but not all: crouching to block kicks, hold forward to block lunge, or hold in other directions to block normal swings. This would encourage attackers to use a variety of attacks when the defender is slowbounced, since if they spam one the defender would catch on quickly.

This is turning into Saber Suggestions 2.0... :)

P.S. (actually on topic)
The main things I'd like to see in 0.1.0
1) The DP regen pauses. IMO these make the game much, much more playable. :) I miss the code server...
2) The ability to parry lunges on slowbounce.
3) Saber locks that do something. Anything. :)

My comments on Jon's other suggestions are in the Saber Suggestions thread...

JRHockney*
06-06-2006, 10:25 PM
I suppose there is a possibility that people will instinctively crouch when slowbounced, all the time. This would be lame. To counterbalance that, how about making it so that you can't parry while crouched? This would avoid crouch spamming, and make it so the defender has to guess whether or not the attacker will kick or swing.

Well, I wouldn't be opposed to that, but at the moment, you can't parry in slowbounce at all.

While I'm at it, I'd like to raise the suggestion again that lunges be parryable. That means that in a bounce/slowbounce situation, the attacker would have three basic options: normal swing, lunge, or kick. The defender would have means of countering any one of these, but not all: crouching to block kicks, hold forward to block lunge, or hold in other directions to block normal swings. This would encourage attackers to use a variety of attacks when the defender is slowbounced, since if they spam one the defender would catch on quickly.

Another good idea especially with the first idea, but I'm not sure if razor wants parries in slowbounce. I think its a good idea because we are already trying to make the slow bounce more like a reversal rather than a stun (which heavy bounce should be), and the fact that the rounds go alot quicker now. Maybe make regular swings do as much damage as lunge when you get hit in slow bounce too? I think I will do a poll on this topic.

JRHockney*
06-28-2006, 12:42 AM
Ok, I have one final (hopefully) list of bugs, exploits, or changes that at least I think should be fixed or changed before the next release:

1. add alt attack as a requirement for saber lock winning. This has already gotten the Ok for the most part but I'll put it here for reference.

2. Penalize crouch somehow. While I do kind of like jacks idea, we really just need to get a build out. So I heard you thought disabling parry while crouching might work. I agree. Maybe we could make jacks idea a togglable feature in the future. That would rule.

3. Lunge still seems spammable even after we lowered its damage sadly. I suggest two possible fixes: 1. make parrying it cause slow bounce all the time (because its hard to parry). 2. Make a cool down period like jack suggested.

4. Bunny hopping. It allows for very very easy escapes. This is definitely a potential problem, and I'm not entirely sure of a good way to stop it other than making those jumps cost FP as well. I suppose we could just call it label it OJP taboo and refuse to continue a fight if someone uses it at least for the next build.

5. Drain! It sucks your FP to zero the first second you use it and doesnt do skwat. I've made a few suggestions at the force thread, but I think we just need to make a decision for the next build even if its a simple and not permanent one. Any other suggestions?

6. At the saber suggestions thread, I have this idea for the reason stated: I when you said on the code server that conversions should only be done when a person is heavy bounced, I must say I agree with that because they can happen pretty easily if you aiming right or even seemingly at random; however, this gives me an idea.

Maybe they should only happen on a normal slowbounce when a person is holding crouch. While I'm not sure this is a better idea than making double damage for hitting a person in slowbounce with a no kick, it just might be enough to make the players watch a little more carefully before they automatically press crouch in a slowbounce and hopefully saving the slowbounce kick combo from going in to near future extinction against vets. Personally, I think it would be better if both ideas were in there but I'll take what I can get on this idea.

Plllleeeaaaassseeee take this seriously if you arent already. I think it whether it or some similar idea is in this game could determine the future extinction of the "kick the slowbounce" move amoung vets, which would be a shame considering how cool it has always been.

7. Running. I havent decided if I think its too easy or not. All I know is that I was able to do waaay too much damage to jack using it before he finally killed me, and I'm not even very good at fighting like that! Maybe make it so that all parrying on it cause slowbounces or other mishaps like the attack parry does? Good runners will still be a threat, but at least this way we have a more proficient way of slowing them down a bit.

Hmmm, I feel like I'm forgetting something but I cant think of it right now. Anyways, that should do it. Now lets get all or most of these problems or changes done so we can enjoy a new build, take a break, and not worry about it for a while.

Any thing else?

razorace
06-29-2006, 01:42 PM
3. Lunge still seems spammable even after we lowered its damage sadly. I suggest two possible fixes: 1. make parrying it cause slow bounce all the time (because its hard to parry). 2. Make a cool down period like jack suggested.
It sounds like the issue might be with the way lunges are triggered. I'll have to check that.
4. Bunny hopping. It allows for very very easy escapes. This is definitely a potential problem, and I'm not entirely sure of a good way to stop it other than making those jumps cost FP as well. I suppose we could just call it label it OJP taboo and refuse to continue a fight if someone uses it at least for the next build.
Well, right now, you can't regen anything, it's basically just annoying. We could add a FP drain, but first I need to figure out how to do that with the jump code. :)
5. Drain! It sucks your FP to zero the first second you use it and doesnt do skwat. I've made a few suggestions at the force thread, but I think we just need to make a decision for the next build even if its a simple and not permanent one. Any other suggestions?
It doesn't just act like lightning?

7. Running. I havent decided if I think its too easy or not. All I know is that I was able to do waaay too much damage to jack using it before he finally killed me, and I'm not even very good at fighting like that! Maybe make it so that all parrying on it cause slowbounces or other mishaps like the attack parry does? Good runners will still be a threat, but at least this way we have a more proficient way of slowing them down a bit.
It's already been nerfed pretty hard. Everything! does like double damage while the dude is running. Adding guarnteed slow bounces and such would probably just make it really frustrating for newbie basejka players.

JRHockney*
06-29-2006, 03:14 PM
It sounds like the issue might be with the way lunges are triggered. I'll have to check that.

Alright, just please make it so its not so easy to use and or spam.

Well, right now, you can't regen anything, it's basically just annoying. We could add a FP drain, but first I need to figure out how to do that with the jump code.

Ok no rush on this one as far as I'm concerned. It should be fixed, but we can probably get awawy with it for the next build by just saying to the hopper "you just forfeited that fight!" LOL.

It doesn't just act like lightning?

it probably does, but last time I checked, it drained you fp to 0 in less then a second. That needs to be fixed badly and we still should make it do something a little different. I mean, "red lightning?" Its just not movie realistic and we might want to get rid of the lightning effect all together with it. We can do better than that I'm sure. I say, make it like a dark cloud type force power that makes the opponent unable to use force power for 5, 10 or 15 seconds depending on how long you blast them and require at least 10 FP to make the 5 second thing work. Hmmm, or maybe make them unable to regen FP for that period of time? I dont know. This is more of a force thread discussion but what do you think? I offered several possibilities at that thread, this is just one of them that I thought might be the easiest to code.

It's already been nerfed pretty hard. Everything! does like double damage while the dude is running. Adding guarnteed slow bounces and such would probably just make it really frustrating for newbie basejka players.


Well, it was the same way in 0.0.9 wasnt it? And now they cant be parried into a slow bounce until their mishap meter is high unlike 0.0.9 and even back then, it was still VERY possible to fight well as a runner. So in a sense, we've made it easier to be a runner in this version, which is not what we are trying to go for here, right? At least this way we can slow them down a bit.

Maxstate
06-29-2006, 03:18 PM
Oh, not to forget: I want attack fakes/power slashes whatever to affect runners like they used too; instabounce. And I want it now!1111111

JRHockney*
06-29-2006, 03:30 PM
Oh, not to forget: I want attack fakes/power slashes whatever to affect runners like they used too; instabounce. And I want it now!1111111

And I want a pony!!! And I want it delivered!!! :p

JRHockney*
06-29-2006, 04:08 PM
Ohh Hocks.. I didnt know you swung that way ;)


eeewwwwww. And with that we are... ooooooooOOOOOOFF TOPIC!! Ok, too much sarcasm for this thread from us here. Razor and everyone else, just read above our stupid comments! LOL.

Maxstate
06-29-2006, 04:11 PM
eeewwwwww. And with that we are... ooooooooOOOOOOFF TOPIC!! Ok, too much sarcasm for this thread from us here. Razor and everyone else, just read above our stupid comments! LOL.
Or I could just delete-edit my posts ;) here goes.

JackBaldy
06-29-2006, 07:37 PM
razorace
"It's already been nerfed pretty hard. Everything! does like double damage while the dude is running. Adding guarnteed slow bounces and such would probably just make it really frustrating for newbie basejka players."

So an unmovie realistic option should be viable to cater to basejka noobs? With all due respect, they should just learn the how to play by walking instead of doing unmovie realistic things. Right now you can parry while running and the only penalty you have is double damage. Running around means you are faster than a walking opponent thus you can more easily dodge his attacks and force him to run too, forcing the walker to run a much more larger amount than he would normally run.

razorace
"Well, right now, you can't regen anything, it's basically just annoying. We could add a FP drain, but first I need to figure out how to do that with the jump code."

Even if you can't regen any DP or FP, it really doesn't matter because they can still make an easy getaway and regen later. Not only that, it isn't movie realistic. I was thinking that you should add a cooldown to jumping like MB2.

razorace
"It sounds like the issue might be with the way lunges are triggered. I'll have to check that."

Well, even if they weren't spammable combo wise, I am almost positive they would still be a problem, and here's why. Lunge does the same damage as an attack fake, but is much more faster and easier to pull of, and since most of the time your opponent is walking he/she will be an easy target plus lunge is too fast to see it coming. I was thinking OJP should make lunge auto knockdown running players and have a wider arc (and do no damage, so lunge is only utility and not some way to cheap your opponent).

Maxstate
"Oh, not to forget: I want attack fakes/power slashes whatever to affect runners like they used too; instabounce. And I want it now!1111111"

That would be nice and I agree.

Sushi_CW
06-29-2006, 08:28 PM
Bunny hopping:
I think a slight FP drain for non-force jumps would be effective. As a more extreme measure, we could reenable push/pull vulnerability for players in the air. :)

Lunge spam:
Maybe make it so that it is always parried unless the defender is 1) moving away or 2) in a bounce, knockdown, roll, mishap, etc? I'm not actually sure I like this idea, but what the heck, I'll throw it out. The idea is that lunge would be a specialty move to catch players in a vulnerable position and players that are retreating backwards.

Running:
This has always been a tricky problem, but I don't think it's too big of a deal. Runners should lose the FP battle if they are always doing it, although right now they can usually net an increase in FP by running to a safe distance and resting. Maybe running backwards/sideways should drain FP slightly?

At any rate, I don't think we need any major new penalties to fix current weaknesses: slight tweaks should be enough. As you can see, I tend to think that the answer lies in making "run-away" moves something that will cost you extra in the FP department. Hard to say though: these are issues that have been around for a while, and have proven themselves tricky to solve.

As far as what else I would like to see before 0.1.0 release: you guessed it. :) Tweaks to the mishap bar, especially giving it a slow steady drain...the rest of my ideas are in the Saber Suggestions thread.

JackBaldy
06-29-2006, 08:36 PM
@Sushi: All your ideas would make OJP an endurance run instead of actual fighting. Like when x or y runs out of endurance x would win etc. I don't like the fact that all your ideas don't really fix the unmovie realistic parts. Running a viable option in the movies? No, because if it was we would have seen it much much more. Bunny hopping a viable option in the movies? No because if it was we would have seen it done. And that idea about lunge spam, why not have lunge be a utility power? In Obiwan vs Anakin in Mustafar OBiwan always kept going backwards and defending, so now we should have a move that disallows that kind of movie like defense? Time to realize something folks, do you want to mainstream this mod or do you actually want it to be movie realistic?

UDM
06-30-2006, 04:43 AM
Sushi, you made an interesting point about running, but it may end up slowing gameplay too much. Instead of letting running deplete force points, why don't we cut more force points when players run while attacking? I think defence while running should just penalize the player on DP and mishap

Btw, I think meatgrinder should have a higher force regen rate. It gets awfully boring in Siege when players run out of force points. Not because of fighting, but due to travelling ie force speed

Maxstate
06-30-2006, 05:01 AM
If a dude runs backwards to regain dp I attack fake him and he bounces.
If a dude uses force speed to run away, be it the one I suggested or the current one, I pull him towards me or push him to the ground.

JackBaldy
06-30-2006, 06:50 PM
Attack fakes are too slow and can be interrupted. Not only that you can parry while running. And right now the only way to affect someone with force is if they have a high mishap bar I believe (in the code server, unless razor changed it, and excluding lightning, that effects you when you have low DP I believe). And I am pretty sure if you pull someone and they fall to the floor they can jump away.

JRHockney*
06-30-2006, 08:39 PM
Attack fakes are too slow and can be interrupted. Not only that you can parry while running. And right now the only way to affect someone with force is if they have a high mishap bar I believe (in the code server, unless razor changed it, and excluding lightning, that effects you when you have low DP I believe). And I am pretty sure if you pull someone and they fall to the floor they can jump away.

I'm pretty sure he changed that even back when he changed the mishap bar. I think I remember asking him after you told me and Im pretty sure you are vulnerable to force powers now when your DP is low.

JackBaldy
06-30-2006, 11:35 PM
Code server hasn't been up in a while, so my memory isn't that fresh. I guess I'll just leave my suggestions to myself until the code server goes up again.

Greiver
07-04-2006, 06:15 AM
personally id like to see some larger differences in the saber styles to make the more usefull in certain situations

i can see it now force drain becomes force nerf "no you can't use force powers for 5secs obiwan i force nerfed you ;P" but seriously now thats a nice idea using the force to temporaily disconnect someone from the force making them rely on the skill

id also like to see some objects ingame that can be toyed with or staticly charged so you could set traps e.g force lightning a medpack and the next person to pick it up takes damage rather then getting healed or electrofieying a e11 so it cant use its second fire.

make force grip into something similar to force throw by making it able to grip weapons ammo or medpacks

the blocking animations should be updated to keshires because its kinda unsettleing when you go to hit someone and it just stops part swing and goes the current blocks

also it would be nice if your force wasnt treated like fatigue because even when a jedi is completely buggered they can use there force powers

it would also be nice if there when a couple of attacks which just crushed blocks/parrys which you have to physcly avoid or be knockedown

these are just some things i've been thinking about for a while

UDM
07-04-2006, 09:27 AM
I've got a few suggestions to make regarding the saber system:

1) Make parrying less common. I'm not sure whether parry is related to DP or mishap bar or both, but imho parry should be related to mishap (or better termed as 'aggression') bar only. This gives players with low DP a better fighting chance, therefore players can opt to play defensively. However, there may be some who take advantage of this and choose to defend all the way, then create mishap. Therefore, I suggest that the mishap bar move up more slowly. Therefore, fights can be faster-paced, but they do not end so quickly ie. parry -> kick -> downwards stab or lunge -> kill opponent

As for opponents who are overly aggressive (think tabbots), instead of being penalized by the system, they can be countered by players' skills. This makes the whole system more twitch based instead of waiting-based (defending players trying to parry and then mishap). Since the saber system allows for sabers to clash by 2 aggressors ie. attacking and forcing your saber into the other guy's, then defenders should counterattack, instead of just waiting for the moment to happen, then create a mishap. In other words, I think the parrying animations should be removed when mishap slider isnt anywhere near the top. What about heavy slowbounce and normal bounce? Maybe the game can randomly roll a number out of a scale of 10, and if it hits 9-10, then it goes into heavy slowbounce, and if it's anything less than that, then it goes into normal bounce

Why do I suggest this? Using ROTS as an example, Anakin is always fighting on the offensive side, but he doesn't slow bounce every 5 seconds. This makes fights more intense, more movie-realistic and more fast-paced. Compared to 009b, 009d is a major improvement because of less parrying animations, but I think it should be taken one notch higher as mentioned above. I've heard some newcomers complain about how parrying animations in 009b always get in the way in pacing the fight, and while it's definitely an improvement in 009d...well im basically repeating myself :P

2) I'd like to see some difference between Aqua and Blue animations. At the moment, there isn't much difference to them. I like how styles are made preferential now, but there has to be some sort of benefits and different animations to differentiate them

I like Maxstate's anims, but somehow they don't really work out in 009d when you're fighting against over aggressive enemies ie. animations become very twitchy and kind of ruin the whole "I'm watching a movie" thing

I suggest that Aqua use a stab-like animation for its W / S attack, and max's saber twirling animations for A/D. Similarly, I think yellow and red are overly similar. Would be nice to have something different for Red (thou shalt not touch holy yellow :D)

Sushi_CW
07-11-2006, 05:27 PM
This is a truly small thing, but right now, a full level 1 force jump costs the same FP as a full level 3 force jump. Could we adjust this so that if you accidentally do a short jump without full force jump points you don't lose so much FP?

razorace
07-11-2006, 05:43 PM
That's a tricky issue. I'll have to think about it. :)

Sushi_CW
07-24-2006, 04:45 PM
I've modified the force jump code so that the force cost of jumps scales better based on the power level selected, and actually uses the values stored in forcePowerNeeded. I've left the values there at their defaults, but if we want to tweak the force cost for jumping in the future, this will make it a whole lot easier. Right now, a full level 3 jump costs about 30FP, a full level 2 about 15, and a full level 1 about 12.

If you guys (mostly Razor ;)) are in favor, I'll commit the changes.

if (forcePower == FP_LEVITATION)
{ //special case
int jumpDrain = 0;

//Edited by Sushi so that the jumpDrain amount depends on the force cost for Jump in forcePowerNeeded.
if (ps->velocity[2] > 250)
{
//jumpDrain = 20;
jumpDrain = forcePowerNeeded[ps->fd.forcePowerLevel[FP_LEVITATION]][FP_LEVITATION] * 0.66;
}
else if (ps->velocity[2] > 200)
{
//jumpDrain = 16;
jumpDrain = forcePowerNeeded[ps->fd.forcePowerLevel[FP_LEVITATION]][FP_LEVITATION] * 0.53;
}
else if (ps->velocity[2] > 150)
{
//jumpDrain = 12;
jumpDrain = forcePowerNeeded[ps->fd.forcePowerLevel[FP_LEVITATION]][FP_LEVITATION] * 0.4;
}
else if (ps->velocity[2] > 100)
{
//jumpDrain = 8;
jumpDrain = forcePowerNeeded[ps->fd.forcePowerLevel[FP_LEVITATION]][FP_LEVITATION] * 0.26;
}
else if (ps->velocity[2] > 50)
{
//jumpDrain = 6;
jumpDrain = forcePowerNeeded[ps->fd.forcePowerLevel[FP_LEVITATION]][FP_LEVITATION] * 0.2;
}
else if (ps->velocity[2] > 0)
{
//jumpDrain = 4;
jumpDrain = forcePowerNeeded[ps->fd.forcePowerLevel[FP_LEVITATION]][FP_LEVITATION] * 0.13;
}

//Removed by Sushi
//if (jumpDrain)
//{
// if (ps->fd.forcePowerLevel[FP_LEVITATION])
// { //don't divide by 0!
// jumpDrain /= ps->fd.forcePowerLevel[FP_LEVITATION];
// }
//}

ps->fd.forcePower -= jumpDrain;
if ( ps->fd.forcePower < 0 )
{
ps->fd.forcePower = 0;
}

//
//check for fatigued state. I'm putting this here in addition to BG_AddFatigue
//because a lot of the code uses this function for draining instead.
if(ps->fd.forcePower <= (ps->fd.forcePowerMax * FATIGUEDTHRESHHOLD))
{//Pop the Fatigued flag
ps->userInt3 |= ( 1 << FLAG_FATIGUED );
}
//

return;
}

JRHockney*
07-25-2006, 02:27 AM
Hmmm, so does that mean doing the highest jump possible would cost only 12 FP total? Wouldnt that mean the lesser jumps would only cost like 6 or so? We have to be very careful to to make jumping cost very little at any level because we dont need base players coming in here and jumping around all over the place with little penalty.

razorace
07-25-2006, 05:28 AM
I don't get it. Did you make actual value changes or just reorganize where the values are defined?

Darth Cariss
07-25-2006, 06:35 AM
You know, I agree. Jump should be way more expensive, not just in FP cost, but to actually get as a Power.

I think Instead of constant Force Jump, there should be real skill in platforming. Not just "Jump 50 feet in the air", I'm talking Prince of Persia style skill in platforming.

We already have a lot of what we need, Wallrunning, Ledgegrabbing (which I think should shimmy faster while grabbed on), etc. It's just not used as good as it could be.

What if a lot of players didn't get Jump becuase it was expensive? What if they got just stuck with Jump Level 1 (Which should have Wallrunning in my opinion, it's useless with Level 2 since you can jump anyway, but with Level 1, it actually adds value to the ability in allowing you to reach places you normally can't jump to).

Just think about it, It'd be like making the normally worthless wall-running valuable and useful for reaching places.

But lets take it a step further, just for arguements sake. What if there were some extra coding done for some more platforming features? Lets not even get into needing new Animations yet... I think the "wall Grab" feature (Where you jump and latch onto a wall for a moment, and then jump off of it) should be sped up (so it's more like a wall bounce), and made so you actually gain hieght off of it. What if you could "wall jump" back and forth up a narrow walkway to reach the top? I think that'd be awesome. It'd also add value and use to JA's normally useless feature.

I personally am I big fan of Platforming (For example, I like the Prince of Persia games for thier elaborate platform puzzles), and I think JA is capable of a lot more platforming than it normally has. It already has Wall Grabbing, wall Running, etc. I just don't think it was ever taken to the level that it could be taken to.

Also, with a possible new Skill system, this could give gunners a way to reach places without needing silly Force Jump where they leap 50 feet into the air. No, this would add skill to reaching places, something that would make people feel good about themselves for getting to a hard to reach area. "Force Jump" Just seems so lazy to me, and in my opinion people should pay more points for being lazy.

UDM
07-25-2006, 11:21 AM
I find that many features in JKA are useless and besides giving you that 2-mins "wow" feeling, they don't do anything more

But the problem with this is that how do you really differentiate between doing a normal force jump, and wall-2-wall hopping? If I could just force jump all the way up, why then do I need to hop from wall to wall? And if hopping from wall to wall has advantages like less FP cost, then why do I need to force jump?

Besides, there are very few ledges that are unreachable in OJP with force jump and ledge grabbing. Taking these into consideration, it's hard to strike a good balance

Sushi_CW
07-25-2006, 09:42 PM
I basically reorganized where the values are defined. The costs shifted slightly as a result, but they could be more easily shifted back, shifted up, shifted down, or whatever people want than they could before.

The way jumping worked before:
Force would be drained at intervals throughout the jump.
How much force was drained in a given interval depended on the player's jump velocity. Basically, when you first jump, your velocity is high and the interval cost more force. As you near the top of the jump, your velocity is low and the cost per interval is less.
The cost for the interval would be divided by the player's skill in jump.

The way I modified it, the cost per interval is multiplied by the force cost listed in forcePowerNeeded. The fractions in my code are proportionate to the values that used to be there (See commented code) so that the overall cost for a level 3 jump is exactly the same.

The main point is to be able to adjust the jump costs by modifying forcePowerNeeded instead of by modifying hard-coded values in the force drain function.

ensiform
07-25-2006, 11:00 PM
i'd like to see the kicking taken out of the staff if you have any throw powers, and add in staff throwing maul has (in battlefront 2)

Sushi_CW
07-26-2006, 12:31 AM
Re jump spam: Most of the jump spam you see in Jedi Academy is the kind that doesn't require any force at all. Right now, it takes 0 FP to do a bunny hop, which is what makes it possible to bounce around the map tigger-style.

Darth Cariss
07-26-2006, 12:52 AM
But the problem with this is that how do you really differentiate between doing a normal force jump, and wall-2-wall hopping? If I could just force jump all the way up, why then do I need to hop from wall to wall? And if hopping from wall to wall has advantages like less FP cost, then why do I need to force jump?

Well the point would be more than just making platforming cost less FP, but the player would also be able to do it to reach places without needing high Force Jump. Wall-running could be enabled for players who don't have Jump, and Jump's Points cost could be incresed, so the lazy people have to spend more points to jump 50 feet through the air.

As for why you would need to Force Jump, the answer to that is quite simple. Because people are lazy, and they want to do what's quick. Even moreso in the heat of battle, just leaping up to a ledge will make one far less vulnerable than having to run up a wall, grab the ledge, and then pull one's self up. You get the quicker, easier way of reaching the top of that ledge with Force Jump (would would be costly) than with the slower, more cost-effective method.

razorace
07-26-2006, 01:24 AM
Re jump spam: Most of the jump spam you see in Jedi Academy is the kind that doesn't require any force at all. Right now, it takes 0 FP to do a bunny hop, which is what makes it possible to bounce around the map tigger-style.
Agreed, I'll try to fix that when I have time.

ensiform
07-26-2006, 01:31 AM
add the rest of the code for 1-Flag CTF and make a way for it to work with base ctf maps maybe. i could make the model/icons.

razorace
07-28-2006, 03:13 PM
mmm, do people really want 1-flag ctf? There's already a lot of gametypes that players rarely use as is.

Vruki Salet
08-11-2006, 11:57 PM
I'd rather see king of the hill, with territory to take instead of a flag.

UDM
08-12-2006, 12:56 AM
I'd rather see an improvement to Siege

JRHockney*
08-24-2006, 12:03 AM
Ok, we've made alot of progress on Enhanced over the past several weeks and 0.1.0 is alot closer to release I think. I'm making a new list of things I'd like to see get occomplished before the release:

1. Tabbot skill level variation and maybe attack parry and kick usage. Maybe We can base the percentage of auto parry of the tabbots on their skill level and also make them occasionally auto attack parry and kick (which the rate could also be based on skill level)

2. find a good balance to force powers such as this idea from the force power thread for push and pull:

only access to back pushes at low DP, anyjumps at low DP, and running swings at low DP
1 level higher = only can push jumps at any level of DP and maybe running swings
2 levels higher = can push jumps and running at any level of DP.
3 levels higher = full access.

3. Finish the ideas that we've been working on (me and Razor) at for lightning. Such as make the dp drain for using it on melee (and maybe for w/saber) faster or slower depending on the lightning skill level of the defender. It would work the same for absorb except level 3 absorb reflects the lightning back. I would also like to see the defender execute the level 1 lightning effect when hit (so it looks like he's absorbing it).

4. Add a sound and maybe even a spark effect to the saberlocks.

5. Make a final decision on how the random saberlocks are fought and won. I've actually killed bots with it in practice and it annoyed the heck out of me.

6. More coop maps to play with and maybe better bot behavior.

7.Maybe do more as far as distinguishing gunners from jedi on the force menu and maybe start allow putting weapons on there to buy if they choose no force powers (or maybe access to NPCs, but thats probably a later build thing). This isnt super neccessary, but it might be good to get a start on it.

8. Find a way to bring in the back hand animation in the saber combat. I've explained one way one another thread.

9. Finish Keshires blocking anims including back block (probably almost done).

10. Finish the HUD (probably almost done too).

11. Make double DP damage for blasters hitting a jedis back. I just thought of this one, but it makes sense; even after the jedis have a back block.

12. I just noticed that tabbots in duel gamemode only use blue style and purple. We might want to look into that.

Thats is for now. Any other suggestions?

Vruki Salet
08-24-2006, 12:21 AM
Sorry JR I forgot about those keshire block anims in my eagerness to get realtrace in Basic. I'll see if I can work with them later today (Thursday) after I sleep.