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View Full Version : Exile was right? Jedi wrong?


Nancy Allen``
06-06-2006, 02:55 AM
I've finished playing through The Sith Lords and noticed a little something. While by no means walking the path of the angels, earning dark side points for things such as persuading two goons on Nar Shadaar to kill themselves, I always said that I was right in waging war against the Mandalorians. At the end of the game I was pretty close to having maximum light side points. Is this a sign of how easy the game is, or were the Jedi wrong in not fighting the Mandalorians and Revan and Exile were justified in turning on them?

Q
06-06-2006, 06:21 AM
I think the morality in the TSL storyline is intentionally ambiguous.

All part of that "Choose Your Path" theme, I guess!

The gameplay, on the other hand, is starkly black and white. You either get to be a dumb thug, or a pristine angel, with no "grey" choices at all.

Q

Shem
06-06-2006, 06:53 AM
Is this a sign of how easy the game is, or were the Jedi wrong in not fighting the Mandalorians and Revan and Exile were justified in turning on them?Well, Zez-Kai Ell actually thinks the Exile was right to do what he/she did.

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/7791/zez114es.jpg

Mace MacLeod
06-06-2006, 08:12 AM
Even though he looks like a walrus with earrings, he has a point, too.

Non-false Jedi
06-06-2006, 10:17 AM
Well Revan and the Exile did different things after the war.

reven0123
06-06-2006, 11:27 AM
yeah thats true the exile i think couldnt handle the guilt of what he had done so wandered past the outer rim for half a decade where as reven helped the republic before buggering off to the unknown regions for his own reasons because im damned if i can tell what he was thinking when he left Bastila and Carth and everyone else the idiot they save the galaxy togher and he leaves because he doesnt want to endanger them because he felt they werent strong enough, i think all of them were a lot stronger than reven thought.

PoiuyWired
06-06-2006, 02:25 PM
Well, I think both the Jedis and Exile are right in their own ways, and there are things they cannot forseen.

Sure, if you ask me I would say the Council is too rigid and needs to be cleansed and reformed. Then again I am mostly a Sith so...

Kelborn Ordo
06-06-2006, 03:22 PM
i think the jedi order is to fragile and to weak to take risk.what revan and the exile did broke the mold of the avarage jedi and they were not weak, they took risks and fought.i respect their decisons.but then again im a mandalorian.

90SK
06-06-2006, 04:31 PM
The gameplay, on the other hand, is starkly black and white. You either get to be a dumb thug, or a pristine angel, with no "grey" choices at all.

What are you talking about? There were plenty of choices that didn't have orientation bias. Saying there were "none at all" is a vast generalization.

Reveilled
06-12-2006, 07:14 PM
I think that the point of the whole story of TSL is that the Exile is in fact the last Jedi. Aside from the exile, every other Jedi has fallen to the dark side or died. Atris worships Sith Holocrons and harbours hate for the Exile, Zez-Kai Ell ignores people in need, Vrook is contemptuous and arrogant, and Kavar not only isolates himself from the people he is supposed to protect, but is willing to enslave an entire planet to achieve his ends. Further, all of these Jedi remain aloof and removed from events during the Mandalorian Wars.

The (light-sided) Exile, on the other hand, goes to war to protect and defend others, and harbours guilt over her actions at Malachor, while recognising them to be necessary. When the Exile returns to the galaxy, she displays not only compassion, but also trust toward non-Jedi. And when all the "Jedi" assemble, they repay the Exile by attempting to perform the Jedi equivalent of inflicting blindness.

Effectively, the only Jedi in the story who acts in the spirit of goodness is the Exile, and her actions in the Mandalorian Wars are reflective of the main thrust of the plot, that only someone who protects others is still a Jedi, no matter what the Jedi Masters say.

Nancy Allen``
06-12-2006, 07:24 PM
Well Vrook wouldn't be Vrook if he wasn't contemptuous. I think that explains it very well. It also goes some way to explaining what happened to Bastila, Juhani and Jolee, that they abandoned the Jedi ways, if they are still alive. As either light side or dark side Exile we can find out what became of Bastila, but the other two, who knows? It would make sense they left the order fur their survival.

DarthOxyClean
06-12-2006, 08:38 PM
hmmm....

Interesting question Nancy.

I have pondered over this question for awhile now. Well, Revan decided to fight because of seeing what happend at Kathar, and because he was impatient with the council. The Exile joined Revan, and blah blah blah. that doesnt answer the question.

I think that, in a way, both sides were wrong.

The Jedi Council did not decide to fight because they sensed that the true threat was not the Mandalorians, but something that had not yet made itself known. So revan was wrong for jumping into battle and (unintentionally) keeping the "true" threat unknown.

And yet the Council might have waited too long. While the Council waited for the "true" threat to reveal itself, the republic was losing troops, planets, and civilians everyday. Eventually, the Republic would have been destroyed. So the Council was wrong for waiting.

And if revan had not jumped into battle, we may have known the "true" threat. but by that time, the republic would have been dead. so in a way, the council and revan/exile were wrong, and yet they were right at the same time.


Did ya get all that?

TheGreenGoblin
06-12-2006, 09:00 PM
yeah thats true the exile i think couldnt handle the guilt of what he had done so wandered past the outer rim for half a decade where as reven helped the republic before buggering off to the unknown regions for his own reasons because im damned if i can tell what he was thinking when he left Bastila and Carth and everyone else the idiot they save the galaxy togher and he leaves because he doesnt want to endanger them because he felt they werent strong enough, i think all of them were a lot stronger than reven thought.


Well in defense of Revan, Kreia says where he was going he couldn't afford emotional attachments.

Sneaky
06-12-2006, 11:09 PM
I think that the point of the whole story of TSL is that the Exile is in fact the last Jedi. Aside from the exile, every other Jedi has fallen to the dark side or died. Atris worships Sith Holocrons and harbours hate for the Exile, Zez-Kai Ell ignores people in need, Vrook is contemptuous and arrogant, and Kavar not only isolates himself from the people he is supposed to protect, but is willing to enslave an entire planet to achieve his ends. Further, all of these Jedi remain aloof and removed from events during the Mandalorian Wars.

The (light-sided) Exile, on the other hand, goes to war to protect and defend others, and harbours guilt over her actions at Malachor, while recognising them to be necessary. When the Exile returns to the galaxy, she displays not only compassion, but also trust toward non-Jedi. And when all the "Jedi" assemble, they repay the Exile by attempting to perform the Jedi equivalent of inflicting blindness.

Effectively, the only Jedi in the story who acts in the spirit of goodness is the Exile, and her actions in the Mandalorian Wars are reflective of the main thrust of the plot, that only someone who protects others is still a Jedi, no matter what the Jedi Masters say.

Eh...true in a sense. I thought Kavar and Zez-kai were all right. Zez seemed repentant, and he couldn't exactly help out everyone on Nar Shadaa without revealing himself and getting himself killed could he? Kavar wasn't too bad either, he was at least trying to help out on Onderon.

I actually thought we were going to get along until Kreia zapped all their asses.

Reveilled
06-13-2006, 11:37 AM
hmmm....

Interesting question Nancy.

I have pondered over this question for awhile now. Well, Revan decided to fight because of seeing what happend at Kathar, and because he was impatient with the council. The Exile joined Revan, and blah blah blah. that doesnt answer the question.

I think that, in a way, both sides were wrong.

The Jedi Council did not decide to fight because they sensed that the true threat was not the Mandalorians, but something that had not yet made itself known. So revan was wrong for jumping into battle and (unintentionally) keeping the "true" threat unknown.

And yet the Council might have waited too long. While the Council waited for the "true" threat to reveal itself, the republic was losing troops, planets, and civilians everyday. Eventually, the Republic would have been destroyed. So the Council was wrong for waiting.

And if revan had not jumped into battle, we may have known the "true" threat. but by that time, the republic would have been dead. so in a way, the council and revan/exile were wrong, and yet they were right at the same time.


Did ya get all that?

Actually, I think Revan was right all along. Revan discovered the unknown threat facing the galaxy in the course of the mandalorian wars, but due to the reluctance of the Jedi Council to support the defence of the outer rim, determined that the council would ignore the true threat, or reject it as having come from the Jedi who led so many young Jedi out of the order.

Had the Jedi Council supported the war, the leaders of the council would have likely discovered the threat while at the same time saving lives. Further, the guidance of the wiser and more disciplined Jedi Masters might have helped the younger Jedi to deal with the pressures of war and stopped them turning to the Dark Side.

On the other hand, without Revan leading the Republic fleets, the war might have been lost anyway.

But that's just my perspective on it.

Eh...true in a sense. I thought Kavar and Zez-kai were all right. Zez seemed repentant, and he couldn't exactly help out everyone on Nar Shadaa without revealing himself and getting himself killed could he? Kavar wasn't too bad either, he was at least trying to help out on Onderon.

I actually thought we were going to get along until Kreia zapped all their asses.

True, and I think that was their reasoning behind their actions, but partially loses sight of what the "right" thing to do would have been.

After all, while Zez-Kai Ell doesn't help out on Nar Shadaa because he doesn't want to be discovered, the Exile helps out everyone on Nar Sadaa because protecting the lives of others is more important to the Exile than anything else, which is the main tenent of being a Jedi. Zez-Kai Ell at least recognises this, and admits his failings, attempting to redeem himself, but in the final Kreia-zaps-everyone scene, shows himself still to be fundamentally misguided in his actions, being willing to mutilate the Exile out of fear instead of working with the Exile to deal with the Sith.

In Kavar's case, he is doing what he believes to be the right thing (discovering the Sith supporters of General Vaklu), but in so doing isolates himself from the people of Onderon, whom he should be protecting, forces them to remain in the republic against their will, and forments (or at the very least, allows to occur) a civil war which will kill hundreds if not thousands of people.

I don't think any of the Jedi Masters are actually evil, per se, but all are misguided in their actions in some way, and their misguided beliefs and actions cause them to lose the spirit of what it means to be a Jedi. Kavar and Zez-Kai Ell are good people, but they aren't true Jedi, I think.

DarthOxyClean
06-13-2006, 02:50 PM
Actually, I think Revan was right all along. Revan discovered the unknown threat facing the galaxy in the course of the mandalorian wars, but due to the reluctance of the Jedi Council to support the defence of the outer rim, determined that the council would ignore the true threat, or reject it as having come from the Jedi who led so many young Jedi out of the order.

Had the Jedi Council supported the war, the leaders of the council would have likely discovered the threat while at the same time saving lives. Further, the guidance of the wiser and more disciplined Jedi Masters might have helped the younger Jedi to deal with the pressures of war and stopped them turning to the Dark Side.

On the other hand, without Revan leading the Republic fleets, the war might have been lost anyway.

But that's just my perspective on it.

It's a good perspective. I think that Revan should have revealed the threat to the Council, even after their defiance. That way, even if Revan did become darksided, the Council could warn the Exile later on. And yet, the Council may have not told the Exile, in case the Exile was darksided. But the Jedi would at least gain an advantage in knowing what the threat was.

But Revan probably did not tell them because he had already started to delve into the darkside, and he would want to keep the information to himself, so that he could defeat (or join) the threat by himself. That way, he would be the only one to gain the power that the threat held. But before he could find the threat, he was betrayed by malak.

That may not make much sense, and it may not fit into the story right. But i am just speculating.



True, and I think that was their reasoning behind their actions, but partially loses sight of what the "right" thing to do would have been.

I don't think any of the Jedi Masters are actually evil, per se, but all are misguided in their actions in some way, and their misguided beliefs and actions cause them to lose the spirit of what it means to be a Jedi. Kavar and Zez-Kai Ell are good people, but they aren't true Jedi, I think.

Good point. I agree with that.

Nancy Allen``
06-13-2006, 07:24 PM
In the case of warning the Exile about Revan, the Exile was his\her general and returned to the Council after the Mandalorian Wars and Malachor V. The council were more interested in punishing the Exile, thanks to Atris, and wondering if maybe s\he presented more of a threat than any warning of what Revan was doing.

Sorry to again draw parelells to Iraq, but we only have to look at this real life incident to understand the predicament. If Bush had not gone to war what might have happened was...well absolutely nothing. But the point is there were consequences that I would wager not even the Jedi could have forseen, just like how Revan and Malek went off to war, then leave for unexplored space, Revan returns to...whatever it is Revan tries to do, Malek betrays him and tries to conquer the galaxy, Revan joins sides with the Jedi who tried to kill him\her...and leading into the Sith Lords territory where we see all the cxonsequences that we could not have fathomed from the first game even in light of everything that had occured.

DarthOxyClean
06-13-2006, 07:46 PM
In the case of warning the Exile about Revan, the Exile was his\her general and returned to the Council after the Mandalorian Wars and Malachor V. The council were more interested in punishing the Exile, thanks to Atris, and wondering if maybe s\he presented more of a threat than any warning of what Revan was doing.

I meant warn the Exile about the True Threat.

But the point is there were consequences that I would wager not even the Jedi could have forseen, just like how Revan and Malek went off to war, then leave for unexplored space, Revan returns to...whatever it is Revan tries to do, Malek betrays him and tries to conquer the galaxy, Revan joins sides with the Jedi who tried to kill him\her...and leading into the Sith Lords territory where we see all the cxonsequences that we could not have fathomed from the first game even in light of everything that had occured.

And that is what makes the KOTOR games so enjoyable. They are made so that you never know what will happen next. They leave the player wondering what will happen, and what could have happened, leaving lots of room for speculation.They throw so many mysteries and revalations into the plot that players can't get enough of it. That is possibly the best thing about KOTOR.

argh...must...get....sentimental.....thoughts....o ut....of ...head..:headbump

lessthanjake2
08-18-2006, 03:38 AM
I think its a gray area. The Jedi Council didnt support going to the Mandalorian Wars because they sensed another threat yet to materialize. I am not under the impression that that threat was this True Sith stuff. I think they sensed that the Jedi Civil War would happen as a result of Jedi going to the Mandalorian Wars.

Melly
08-25-2006, 04:42 AM
The Jedi Council did not decide to fight because they sensed that the true threat was not the Mandalorians, but something that had not yet made itself known. So revan was wrong for jumping into battle and (unintentionally) keeping the "true" threat unknown.

And yet the Council might have waited too long. While the Council waited for the "true" threat to reveal itself, the republic was losing troops, planets, and civilians everyday. Eventually, the Republic would have been destroyed. So the Council was wrong for waiting.


One thing that's always bugged me about the Council's excuse of "there's a bigger threat out there and we're waiting for it to reveal it's self" was that they didn't know when this threat was going to reveal itself it could have happened in one week, tomorrow, or fifty years from now. They didn't know. And I can't understand how they could let whole worlds burn (Cathar, the Iridonian colonies) while they were waiting for something to happen, that might not even have happened in their lifetime.

Another thing that has always annoyed me was that when Exar Kun started the Sith War the Jedi helped the Republic. When Malak and Revan attacked the Republic the Jedi helped then. But when the Mandalorians attack the Republic the Jedi do nothing? Does this mean that only wars started by fallen Jedi matter to the Council?

Nancy Allen``
08-25-2006, 05:02 AM
I think it might, as Exar Kun, Revan and Malek, they involved the Jedi in these conflicts. Witness how the Council is over Exile. Vrook and Atris especially disapproved. It's fair to say that if Revan fronted up, assuming the Council had the stones to raise a hand against Revan, they would be equally as contemptous.

Jediphile
08-25-2006, 02:50 PM
The thing is that neither side was right, and the fall of the jedi order seen in KotOR2 is the result of the jedi knights inability to overcome their differences and find common ground. Both Revan and his followers were hellbent on fighting the Mandalorians while the jedi masters were too concerned with putting their foot down and establishing their own authority to reexamine their own position in the matter. It takes two to quarrel. One side was Revan and Malak. The other was the jedi council. Who was right? As in most cases, the truth usually lies somewhere in between the extremes.

I think Zez-Kai Ell puts it best during his musings on the matter...

Zez-Kai Ell: "I, too, lost a Padawan on Malachor. Not to the battle, but to the alternative - to the teachings that Revan brought from the Unknown Regions. {Quiet}And I was not the only Jedi Master to watch a student turn on them. No, no - they were not to blame, but many of the Order did so - it was a difficult time, a time of strong emotion.Perhaps the Council, perhaps the Order itself had grown arrogant in their teachings. It is easy to cast blame, but it is perhaps time the Order accepted responsibility for their teachings, and their arrogance, and come to recognize that perhaps we are flawed.Not once did I hear one of the Council claim responsibility for Revan, for Exar Kun, for Ulic, for Malak... or for you. Yet... you were the only one who came back from the wars to face our judgment. And rather than attempting to understand why you did what you did, we punished you instead.{Frustrated}Our one chance to see where we had gone wrong, and we cast it aside. And now, that decision has come back to us, and may carry with it, our destruction. Perhaps there is something wrong in us, in our teachings. And though I tried, I could not cause that thought to leave me - so I left the Council. And I was not the only one. That is why many scattered... and why many in the Republic do not trust us. And why we do not trust ourselves. Make no mistake - I am no Jedi. This is the end you see. After this, there will be nothing.{Quietly}And I think it will be for the best. Do you wish to do battle now? I have nothing more to say. It provides no comfort at all, for reasons on which I still must keep secret.Suffice to say redemption was not Revan's choice, and I have never believed those of the Council who attempt to console themselves otherwise for the crime they committed."

The interesting thing is that those who are closest to having the heart if a jedi are those who claim they are no longer jedi - like Zez-Kai Ell or Jolee Bindo - or who are told repeatedly that they are not jedi anymore (the Exile).