PDA

View Full Version : I'm sorry to say, but Malak is cooler than the three scrubs in this game [SPOILERS]


Joe89
06-14-2006, 03:21 AM
Using the force to eat the population of a planet? A broken old brute who is enslaved twice by the same person? A crusty old lady who talks in riddles and actually travels with her main opponent on his whole quest?

I will take good old Darth Malak any day.

tbl1
06-25-2006, 06:34 AM
Malak is better if you like the traditional sith lord, with: Commanding a normal army and fleet/empire, wanting to rule the galaxy, engaged in a war w/ the republic and the maniacal laugh.

YertyL
06-25-2006, 11:59 AM
Using the force to eat the population of a planet? A broken old brute who is enslaved twice by the same person? A crusty old lady who talks in riddles and actually travels with her main opponent on his whole quest?

I will take good old Darth Malak any day.
I second that - although the three TSL baddies may appear more "interesting", there are simply too many flaws in the execution of their concpts ... Nihilus being described as ridiculously powerful (killing a planet with the Force - that's like 100+ (?) times the power of any jedi ever seen in any movie)and then appearing ridiculously weak in-game, Sion first cutting off Kreia's Hand and later obeying her without hestitation or question; Kreia's betrayal may be an interesting plot twist, however it (at least for me) raises some questions and frustration - how cool is it to have a master who continually tells you off for everything you do, secretly abuses you for her own goals and in the end trys to kill you?
Malak may be relatively chliche, but he fits his role nicely - and the strength of SW movies or games has never lain in intellectually challenging plot ...

The Source
06-25-2006, 12:15 PM
Nihilus being described as ridiculously powerful (killing a planet with the Force - that's like 100+ (?) times the power of any jedi ever seen in any movie)and then appearing ridiculously weak in-game.
Hahaha...
I never thought about that. I must have dismissed Nihilus' background. He should have been your end nemesis, and then he should have kicked the PCs but inches from death. What the hell happened?

90SK
06-25-2006, 12:25 PM
Using the force to eat the population of a planet? A broken old brute who is enslaved twice by the same person? A crusty old lady who talks in riddles and actually travels with her main opponent on his whole quest?

I will take good old Darth Malak any day.

If you like your villains simple, easy to understand and generally cliche, that's fine. Malak was good on the first go-around. But Malaks in every game, and things start to get really dull for people who like using their brain to understand the outline of a plot.

He should have been your end nemesis, and then he should have kicked the PCs but inches from death. What the hell happened?

They explain why Nihilus becomes weak after trying to feed off the Exile. Perhaps his weakness was a bit too prevalent in the finale, but you can dismiss it if you want.

TSR
06-25-2006, 12:53 PM
Malak FTW. although i don't approve of his ideas, they;re were much better executed than TSl. i.e actually blowing a planet up and still being a hard nut, not supposedly killing one off with the force and being about as strong as a drunken tach.

igyman
06-25-2006, 01:06 PM
We all know KoTOR 1 had a better executed story than TSL, but as for the villains I say Nihilus and it's a real shame there wasn't much info on him and that he wasn't the final boss. I always thought Sion would go down first, but then it turned out to be Nihilus, how disapointing.

HerbieZ
06-26-2006, 01:42 PM
We all know KoTOR 1 had a better executed story than TSL, but as for the villains I say Nihilus and it's a real shame there wasn't much info on him and that he wasn't the final boss. I always thought Sion would go down first, but then it turned out to be Nihilus, how disapointing.

Bingo. Most of the story line from Kotor 1, delved into the past giving out lots of background information about Revan and Malak and keeping the player in the loop. Kotor 2 however used FAR too much mysticism, i mean Kreia was enough but they over played it with the mysterious Sion, Nihilus and Atris. These could have been very unique charactors if they did'nt use the "Kreia template" on all three of them.

igyman
06-26-2006, 05:45 PM
Mysterious isn't a bad thing, the bad thing is that they've cut out the content that unveils the mystery. Yeah, I've heard all about Obsidian being pressured to finish the game, but that doesn't change the fact that there are a lot of stuff missing due to their rush.

Prime
06-26-2006, 10:30 PM
and the maniacal laugh.This is by far the most important thing.

Hahaha...
I never thought about that. I must have dismissed Nihilus' background. He should have been your end nemesis, and then he should have kicked the PCs but inches from death. What the hell happened?Something to do with being a hole in the force. :)

mimic666
06-27-2006, 12:02 AM
Thread: I am sorry to say, but Darth Malak is cooler than the three scrubs in this game. Be that as it may, Revan is way the hell "Cooler" than Malak and Nihilus looks better as a "Bad Guy" as well as Sion.

lukeiamyourdad
06-27-2006, 02:04 AM
Kreia was ok, but Malak was much better. He's just the typical evil guy who doesn't care about anything. He reminds me of Vader.
Sion is interesting and could've been a very cool villain...if he made more efforts to pursue you...
And Nihilus...yeah...

HerbieZ
06-27-2006, 05:51 AM
Something to do with being a hole in the force. :)

So that's what he said.. He was lying :P

Lord Foley
06-27-2006, 11:19 AM
Are you kidding? Malak was so disgustingly cliche it's beyond belief. I like Sion and Kreia better than him, though Nihilus is also a pathetic wimp.

Kotor 2 however used FAR too much mysticism, i mean Kreia was enough but they over played it with the mysterious Sion, Nihilus and Atris. These could have been very unique charactors if they did'nt use the "Kreia template" on all three of them.

Far too much mysticism? The entire point of the KotOR II plotline is YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT IS GOING ON. That's why you have to hunt down the Jedi Masters, that's why you have to reconnect with the Force, that's why you have to accept Kreia as a teacher, that's why you have to confront the Sith Lords, and ultimately, your entire past. If they did what you said, it wouldn't have been the same game at all. I loved the setup of KotOR II's plotline, other than "OMFG Nihilus is like SOOOOO POWERFUL!!! Oh, BTW, you can kill him in 2 seconds lol". That was a big letdown.

Diego Varen
06-27-2006, 01:18 PM
Are you kidding? Malak was so disgustingly cliche it's beyond belief. I like Sion and Kreia better than him, though Nihilus is also a pathetic wimp.

I have to agree with that statement, except about Malak. I liked Malak, except when he laughed.

Prime
06-27-2006, 01:33 PM
Are you kidding? Malak was so disgustingly cliche it's beyond belief. And yet he was awesome. Crazy, isn't it?

PoiuyWired
06-27-2006, 04:27 PM
Well, Malak is "complete" at least:

Kreia is ok for the most part, though her ending (and ending for the series for that matter) needs more work, I don't see a dying old witch talking for hours standing up-right. At least let her drop down on the floor or against a pillar or soemthing.

Sion is nicely done, up to the end. I really wish I would get chased by ahim more, he is kinda scary. I also wish they have more in-depth cut scene on how he would once again bow down to Traya after he almsot succeed in killing her though, kinda out of place there.

Nihilus have good build up, but anti-climatic confrontation, most is said in his own thread already.

Atris is weakly done, I wish they would keep the Atris vs Nihilus confrontation scene, even though we know Atris won't send a chance. Either its a light-side-again Atris picking up the pieces, or option for DS Exile to command his Atris pet to do his bidding. That would at least be a nice thing to watch.

Basically kotor2 Villians lack a bit of depth, perhaps due to rush work.

T.Nova
06-27-2006, 09:06 PM
Malak was tall, had a nice costume (the red suit was fitting) and he had the classical bad guy laugh. Cliched maybe, but still he was alot of fun. I did think Darth Sion was alright, but in the end he turned out to be some pathetic sob who submitted to an old witch. And I really hated Kreia, You don't know how satisfying it was to end that old witches life.

Darth Nihilus was supposed to sound like super bad guy that made Darth Vader look like a sissy, this was the pinnacle of the darkside, killing planets to fuel his power had me saying wtf? Next thing you you know he turns out to be some pathetic character.

But nothing beats Darth Malak at this point, the end duel was truly epic.. Master v.s Apprentice, Light Side v.s Dark Side (for LS characters) and the fate of the galaxy at stake.

Mace MacLeod
06-28-2006, 07:58 AM
The entire point of the KotOR II plotline is YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT IS GOING ON.

And that's the game's biggest weakness--being mysterious and vague is easy. Sooner or later you need the payoff, which unfortunately never really comes. There isn't a single moment in TSL that had the same "OMG! What...?! REALLY?!" impact as finding out the truth about your PC for the first time in KotOR on board the Leviathan, IMHO. On my first playthrough of KotOR, my first savegame after the Leviathan looked like I'm Revan???????!!!!!!!!!
and there was no comparable moment in TSL. Sure it was a lot darker, more multi-layered and much more ambitious, but tragically they just ran out of money, time, and/or ideas and couldn't make the story threads all tie together. *sigh* Anyway, back on topic.

Malak was cooler only in that he was appropriately tough as a final villain. As a character, I found him to be just another one-dimensional, muah-ha-ha-ing generic evil guy. If he had a moustache, he'd be twiddling it in every cutscene a la Snidely Whiplash. Yawn. Still, fighting him was actually hard. He was a final boss who had some stones, unlike the TSL crop. Kreia, Sion and Nihilus were more interesting as characters (well, maybe not Nihilus--he was a character concept) but unsatisfyingly easy to clobber. Sion in particular could have provided a lot more storyline fodder if they'd fleshed out the story before rushing TSL into stores for Christmas...oh well.

Final Verdict:
Malak--standard seen one, seen 'em all bad guy. But tough as he should be.
Kreia, Sion--Much better and more complex villains. But wimps. And they shouldn't be.
Nihilus--a black coat on a hatrack has the same charisma. And a wimp. And he REALLY shouldn't be.

Mosier
07-03-2006, 12:45 AM
Basically I see the difference between Malak and Traya to be like comparing Darth Vader to Darth Sidious. One uses brute force and is rather obvious about how they go about things while the other uses cunning and deviousness to reach the same objective by risking someone else's neck. (Nevermind the obvious cyber enhancements versus the shriveled cackling beneath a robe..)

Sion = Darth Maul

Nihilus = red herring

Nema_Suneimi
07-03-2006, 05:11 PM
I thought that it was a mistake in TSL to make it so obvious that Kreia was the betrayer. You might have had that tension and OMG moment if she had been even more subtle in her ways and you really had to consider whether to believe in her or your other friends -- only to be thunderstruck when you realize you'd been manipulated by virtually everyone, especially Kreia, in the end. Everything was just too obvious.

The biggest OMG moment for me came with the final meeting with the Jedi masters -- like, noooooo Vrook (even though he was a crabby bastige)!!!

And, on topic -- I really liked Malak, his voice, his look, and enjoyed the challenge of the final confrontation. I don't think he should have felt any regrets when he died, however -- that was really weak -- he might have cursed the PC for being the one to lure him to the dark side, loading all the responsibility on the PC in an appropriately Sith-like manner, the way Saul tried to take a final stab at hurting Carth, and died laughing.

Scars Unseen
08-04-2006, 11:45 AM
Malak was a walking advertisement against smokeless tobacco(the dark side causes mouth cancer... who knew?). Nihilis had potential, except the whole wound in the force thing bothered me to begin with. Sion was just plain boring to me. Kreia was really the only interesting one to me. A lot more backstory would have done all of the above worlds of good.

lessthanjake2
08-04-2006, 02:07 PM
These three are in general weaker than Malak because they are so much harder to understand.

My first time through I didnt at all understand why Kreia was doing what she was doing. It actually took me like 3 playthroughs to realize that she wanted to somehow use you to kill the Force (and I still dont understand HOW she planned to do that). All she keeps saying is stuff like "You lived without the Force and thats why I sought you out." That basically tells me nothing about what she means to do with that unique trait of mine. Also I agree it wasnt enough of an "OMG!!!!!" moment when she betrayed you. You know it is coming all along really.

Sion is pretty cool. I dont mind the guy but he is totally in the background in the story. He is absolutely NOT a main part of it. He just provides a couple boss fights and that's all. Because hes not a big part of the story, nothing is really explained about him in great detail. You know that he was at Trayus Academy with Kreia and that she was an abusive teacher (probably in a mental way but thats another unexplained thing) and he betrayed her and cast her out. That's all you know, and frankly it is a weak back story that makes Sion an average villain at best. Also the fact that he never seems like much of a threat to you (besides being on Peragus, he doesnt follow you or do anything bad) makes him weak.

Nihilus also suffers from being hard to understand. The whole "feeding off of force sensitives" thing is a bit overly weird in my view to begin with. But it's acceptable. The only problem is that it is never explained why you are the only one who can kill him. No one tells you that you are the only one because he cant feed off of the force within you. If I remember correctly I didnt really grasp that the first time I played it (the problem being that you only get answers to this and stuff like it through certain very specific conversation choices that players dont always choose). And once again, like Sion, you get no backstory on him beyond what Kreia knows. It makes him seem like he came out of the blue and just is this totally random huge threat that you dont understand. Thats weak. And obviously the fact that hes so easy to kill is also weak.

What made Malak a good villain were things that these villains simply did not have. He was a constant threat to you, in that he blew up an entire world just to get you, and was having bounty hunters going after you and his apprentice etc etc. None of these villains were ever really a threat to you. Nihilus was a threat to Jedi and people in general, but not specifically you. Malak was also a good villain because he had large personal ties to your character. These villains either have personal ties to Kreia or are Kreia. You dont have personal ties to any of them and as such its totally impersonal.


Anyways my rant is over. KOTOR II makes me mad because the gameplay is IMO a lot better than KOTOR I but the story is just such a lesser story. KOTOR IIs gameplay with a KOTOR I level story would be perfect.

Darth333
08-04-2006, 02:26 PM
While Malak was the typical SW villain type, Kreia was well done too.

I found that Kreia's character was fleshed out very well but that the other two Sith Lords were rather bland and forgettable.

As for the TSL storyline, I still enjoyed the game but the "wound in the force", the "echoes" and the "feeding off of force sensitives" thingies were just too esoteric for me, cut content or not.

Jae Onasi
08-04-2006, 03:07 PM
I think if they'd switched the bosses around a bit in TSL it might have worked better--instead of Nihilis/Sion/Traya, it might have been better as Sion/Traya/Nihilis--they build Nihilis up as the big bad guy so much through the game that when I got done fighting him, I actually expected the game to end fairly soon thereafter, instead of having an entire planet follow thereafter. If they'd built him up more and given him some characterization and made him a Real Tough Boss (tm), I'd have been a little more satisfied.

I agree with Mace--Malak was a very simple Bad Guy, but appropriately tough. The TSL bad guys were more interesting but too easy to beat, sometimes ridiculously easy. I think I took out Nihilis in 2 rounds and thought to myself, "well, that was just _way_ too simple. What gives?"

@Darth333--I could deal with the 'feeding on force sensitives' but the 'wound/echoes in the force' was a little too esoteric for me, too.

Emperor Devon
08-04-2006, 06:23 PM
I think I'm going to get stoned for this one, but I found Kreia to be a far better villain than Malak. Malak is a good villain, but he's a complete cliche. He laughs whenever he wins at something, for crying out loud. Although a villain like that is okay to have once, I imagine most people will be extremely disappointed if the main bad guy in KotOR III is like him, or if there'd been another Malak in place of Kreia.

Kreia, on the other hand, isn't a blind idiot who orders her troops to simply destroy everything. Unlike Malak, her character was full of depth, and you don't discover all of her motives until the end of the game. I found the scenes with her executing her plans or simply talking to her to be far more enjoyable than watching Malak order his lackeys about. Don't get me wrong, I consider Malak a fitting villian for KotOR I, but cunning bad guys are just plain better than big bullies. :)

The difficulty of the Sith Lords in TSL never bothered me, though. You can correct that problem with Kotor Tool in less than a few minutes, so I don't see why it's an issue.

stoffe
08-04-2006, 08:52 PM
What made Malak a good villain were things that these villains simply did not have. He was a constant threat to you, in that he blew up an entire world just to get you


Taris vs. Peragus, which Sion's Sith blew up in an attempt to kill you?


and was having bounty hunters going after you and his apprentice etc etc.


Unlike Sion, Visas and the Sith Assassins that stalk you at various points in the game? Granted that Calo, Darth Brandon and Lord Malak's Displeasure Delegations tended to talk before fighting unlike Visas and the assassins, but most of KotOR you did go fairly unchallenged by your main opponent save for those handful of encounters, just like in TSL.

(And I am happy that there were no "Leviathan incident" in TSL. I hate it when you are forced into "You are captured no matter what, because we say so" situations in games. Breaks the immersion and takes control out of the hands of the player.)


None of these villains were ever really a threat to you. Nihilus was a threat to Jedi and people in general, but not specifically you.


As the "Last of the Jedi" you were next on Nihilus menu, and he did send Visas, his apprentice, off to fetch you. He just was a bit less theatric about it than Darth Malak was (and Visas was not as much of a two-bit thug as Darth Bandon was so you didn't need to kill her.) :)

From the start of the game the Sith in TSL seemed to have a more direct interest in you personally than they did in KotOR1, where you were just an obstacle on the way to capturing Bastila until the truth was revealed.


Malak was also a good villain because he had large personal ties to your character.


You didn't know that until more than 2/3 through the game though. Before that you were lead to believe Malak was mostly after Bastila and only concerned himself with you since you travelled with her and protected her. :)


I agree with Mace--Malak was a very simple Bad Guy, but appropriately tough.


I agree. Darth Malak was a thug, more of a young Darth Vader than a Palpatine type. He was an enforcer and tool of someone who was making the plans and pulling the strings, like Vader was for Palpatine. But Malak's ambition made him betray his master and placed him in the top spot, even though he wasn't really suited for it.

Causing random havoc and destroying the republic without finesse to become the Master Of the Galaxy(tm) paints him more as a homocidal maniac thug than a scheming evil mastermind. :) And he continued to play his "enforcer" role, actively chasing after the player, even though nobody pulled his strings any more.


The TSL bad guys were more interesting but too easy to beat, sometimes ridiculously easy. I think I took out Nihilis in 2 rounds and thought to myself, "well, that was just _way_ too simple. What gives?"


Since I mostly played the game for the story and not the fights the first time I found it rather refreshing with a bad guy who wasn't insanely more powerful than you and could breathe fire and shoot laser beams out of his eyes for no explained reason. With his primary strength, the force drain, out of the picture he felt more like an even opponent. Someone who the Exile might actually consider herself capable to challenge without comitting suicide.

Most of the strength of the Exile&friends in the game tends to come from the rather insanely overpowered eqipment you can find and build. With upgraded armor/robes and lightsabers there is very little that lasts long against you, while most enemies fight more or less naked by comparison. Remove everything except your lightsaber and Nihilus would probably offer more of a challenge. :)

But I can agree that on replays, when you already know most of the story, combat becomes a larger, more important part of the game experience. It also tends to become easier during replays since you've better mastered how the game works. For those situations tougher boss opponents may be enjoyable, but the way the Difficulty setting in the game works I find it entirely unsatisfying to set it higher than Normal. There are more fun ways to up the encounter difficulty in my opinion. :)

Feagildin
08-05-2006, 02:07 AM
I personally liked Malak's look better than Sion's look, and I liked Malak's personality/backstory more than Nihilus' personality/backstory. However, if you take Nihilus' look and combine it with Sion's story and a little tlc/enrichment, you have a baddy that owns Malak like a Twi'lek dancer is owned by a Hutt with a cantina. As it is, however, I prefer Malak to the duo from TSL.

lessthanjake2
08-05-2006, 06:28 PM
Taris vs. Peragus, which Sion's Sith blew up in an attempt to kill you?

Notice I said "CONSTANT threat" Sure, him getting to you at Peragus was an example of what I was talking about, but there is nothing like that again for the rest of the game. In KOTOR 1 you got captured by the Leviathan, you got stalked by Malaks apprentice, and you got stalked by Calo Nord who was working for Malak. That's all after Taris.

Unlike Sion, Visas and the Sith Assassins that stalk you at various points in the game?

When do you get stalked by Sion and Sith Assassins at various points? It was really only Peragus. Sure, they were on Korriban but I always got the idea that Sion wasnt there cause of you, that he was there to bask in the dark power there and to kill Vash. And if he was there cause of you, it sure wasnt made all that clear.

And having Visas go after you is cool but it is just one example, and shes pretty easily turned to your side so shes not some bad ass bad guy that you kill.

As the "Last of the Jedi" you were next on Nihilus menu, and he did send Visas, his apprentice, off to fetch you. He just was a bit less theatric about it than Darth Malak was (and Visas was not as much of a two-bit thug as Darth Bandon was so you didn't need to kill her.)

But Nihilus himself couldnt find you. He doesnt seem able to sense you because you "a wound in the force." He sent Visas to do it because she had the capabilities to find you. I dont know. Playing through the game, I never got the sense that Nihilus was after me. I feel like you are even told that single Jedi dont attract him, that he can only sense many Jedi in the same place.

You didn't know that until more than 2/3 through the game though. Before that you were lead to believe Malak was mostly after Bastila and only concerned himself with you since you travelled with her and protected her.

It doesnt matter if its only known for only about 1/3 of the game. It adds a personal aspect to seeking him out and fighting him in the end. That makes him a better villain. The fact that it was added later in the story is even better because it adds depth to the character of Malak as time went on.

stoffe
08-05-2006, 08:50 PM
Notice I said "CONSTANT threat" Sure, him getting to you at Peragus was an example of what I was talking about, but there is nothing like that again for the rest of the game.


In my opinion there was no "constant threat" in either of the games. You could merrily go about your own business and do pointless (for the main plot) side quests as you saw fit with no ill effects. Malak and his goons would wait until you felt like proceeding with the main quest. :)

Sion & Assassins at Peragus, Visas when you either was strongly light/dark or had done some of the planets, Sion & Assassins again at Korriban, Nihilus assassins on Dxun's mandalorian camp. Not overwhelming, but I'd hardly call that "nothing like that again". :)


When do you get stalked by Sion and Sith Assassins at various points? It was really only Peragus. Sure, they were on Korriban but I always got the idea that Sion wasnt there cause of you, that he was there to bask in the dark power there and to kill Vash.


Peragus, Korriban, Dxun...

If you read Vash's datapad on Korriban it becomes fairly clear (IMO) that she was nothing but a bait used by Sion in an attempt to lure you there. The moment the Hawk had landed she was no longer needed and was killed. Visas will tell you so as well if you have her in the group when you find Vash's corpse.

Sion wants all Jedi dead, but he's after the Exile personally. If the Exile is male because you are (in his eyes) Kreia's new apprentice who he wants to fail to humiliate her. There also seems to be some form of jealousy involved. If the Exile is female because he has become obsessed with you (as close to infatuation as a half-dead Sith can come I suppose).


And having Visas go after you is cool but it is just one example, and shes pretty easily turned to your side so shes not some bad ass bad guy that you kill.


I've always had some trouble beating Visas (may be because my characters are cronic lightsiders making her appear at the earliest possible opportunity) so I can't agree she's a pushover.

The only difference (in combat terms) between Visas and Bandon is that Visas surrenders when she's been badly hurt, while Bandon fights to the death. She won't let you surrender and will kill you if you can't defeat her, so from the Exile's perspective the fight is as much a matter of of life and death as Revan's fight against Bandon was.


But Nihilus himself couldnt find you. He doesnt seem able to sense you because you "a wound in the force." He sent Visas to do it because she had the capabilities to find you. I dont know. Playing through the game, I never got the sense that Nihilus was after me.


You don't see Malak running after you personally either. He just stays on his bridge sending his goons after you. Like Nihilus stays on his bridge sending his goons after you. Seems to me they both equally wants to get their hands on their respective protagonist, though for different reasons. :)

Malak doesn't know where you are either (until Saul snatches you), he sends his goons out to locate you.

First he sends Visas to find you. Then, when Tobin sells you out at Onderon and informs Nihilus that you are there his Assassins show up at the Mandalorian camp soon enough and try to deal with you. Remember the scene when first travelling to Onderon, where someone had told Tobin to keep an eye out for you. Seeing as how Vaklu was "allied" with Nihilus faction its not hard to imagine who had told them about you, even though it isn't said directly.


It doesnt matter if its only known for only about 1/3 of the game. It adds a personal aspect to seeking him out and fighting him in the end. That makes him a better villain. The fact that it was added later in the story is even better because it adds depth to the character of Malak as time went on.

I'll agree that it was a nice thouch to have a more personal past relation with the main bad-guy than was at first apparent, it makes the last quarter of the story more interesting and the final battle more emotional.

But I disagree that it adds any depth to Malak's character. He's still the same utterly predictable thug that he was from the start. Subtlety, scheming and deception isn't something he's concerned about since brute force will suffice for his purposes. This never changes from Taris to the Starforge Command Deck, in my opinion. The change doesn't arrive until he's dying on the floor, coughing out his last words.

It does, however, add depth to the Revan player character though, who should be profoundly affected by the revelation, for good or ill (depending on the player's whim). :)

Jabba da Butt
08-05-2006, 09:53 PM
Malak is too cliche. He is just a dumb bully who likes to blow up stuff. The villians in Kotor 2 were a vast improvement, although Nihilus could have used some more backstory. The Kotor 2 villians are more manipulative, smart, sneaky type villians who lay out traps and send assasins, or even hide with the PC and try to sway him to the dark side. I _HATED_ Kreia, because she got on my nerves, but she was an excelent bad guy, err, well, bad girl. Malak fit his role very nicely, but I don't like him much myself, because he is just an idiot. He blows up the galaxy just so he can rule it.

lessthanjake2
08-05-2006, 11:56 PM
In my opinion there was no "constant threat" in either of the games. You could merrily go about your own business and do pointless (for the main plot) side quests as you saw fit with no ill effects. Malak and his goons would wait until you felt like proceeding with the main quest.

Well yeah obviously thats technically true, but supposedly Malak had people after you at all times not to mention that there were actual Sith soldiers walking around Taris, Manaan, and Korriban.

Sion & Assassins at Peragus, Visas when you either was strongly light/dark or had done some of the planets, Sion & Assassins again at Korriban, Nihilus assassins on Dxun's mandalorian camp. Not overwhelming, but I'd hardly call that "nothing like that again".

Sions assassins on Korriban were sorta coincidence I thought.
The assassins at Dxun were not explained to be after you. They fought the Mandalorians too. Furthermore, its not like those guys sought you out vigorously. They were on Dxun itself at the Freedon Nadd tomb presumably. If those guys were after you they needed a cutscene having someone tell them to get you. That goes a long way. Cause otherwise it just seems random.

Peragus, Korriban, Dxun...

If you read Vash's datapad on Korriban it becomes fairly clear (IMO) that she was nothing but a bait used by Sion in an attempt to lure you there. The moment the Hawk had landed she was no longer needed and was killed. Visas will tell you so as well if you have her in the group when you find Vash's corpse.

Sion wants all Jedi dead, but he's after the Exile personally. If the Exile is male because you are (in his eyes) Kreia's new apprentice who he wants to fail to humiliate her. There also seems to be some form of jealousy involved. If the Exile is female because he has become obsessed with you (as close to infatuation as a half-dead Sith can come I suppose).

Meh it may not have been coincidence but once again it is not made clear. If you have to have one party member with you or have to read the datapads to get whats going on thats a problem. I generally dont read datapads. However, I thought her datapad just said that they were keeping her there but she made an account to open a door. How does that make anything clear?

I've always had some trouble beating Visas (may be because my characters are cronic lightsiders making her appear at the earliest possible opportunity) so I can't agree she's a pushover.

The only difference (in combat terms) between Visas and Bandon is that Visas surrenders when she's been badly hurt, while Bandon fights to the death. She won't let you surrender and will kill you if you can't defeat her, so from the Exile's perspective the fight is as much a matter of of life and death as Revan's fight against Bandon was.

Meh I didnt mean how hard she is to fight or something. I just meant that an enemy that is so weak minded in her evil that she is easily turned to the light isnt all that bad ass.

You don't see Malak running after you personally either. He just stays on his bridge sending his goons after you. Like Nihilus stays on his bridge sending his goons after you. Seems to me they both equally wants to get their hands on their respective protagonist, though for different reasons.

Malak sends a bunch of people after you. Nihilus only sends Visas, or at least thats all you see him sending

Malak doesn't know where you are either (until Saul snatches you), he sends his goons out to locate you.

Thats not the point. The point is that once Nihilus sends his one goon after you (Visas) he is done with goons. ANd since he himself cant find you, hes not a threat.

First he sends Visas to find you. Then, when Tobin sells you out at Onderon and informs Nihilus that you are there his Assassins show up at the Mandalorian camp soon enough and try to deal with you. Remember the scene when first travelling to Onderon, where someone had told Tobin to keep an eye out for you. Seeing as how Vaklu was "allied" with Nihilus faction its not hard to imagine who had told them about you, even though it isn't said directly.

It should be said directly though because while I realized that after playing it a while I am pretty sure I didnt get that the first time through. And most people dont play it more than once. In my view its ok not to spell things out 100%, but they gotta make it clear. You dont really find out hes allied with the Sith until later anyways. So when that first happens you dont know whats going on.

But I disagree that it adds any depth to Malak's character. He's still the same utterly predictable thug that he was from the start. Subtlety, scheming and deception isn't something he's concerned about since brute force will suffice for his purposes. This never changes from Taris to the Starforge Command Deck, in my opinion. The change doesn't arrive until he's dying on the floor, coughing out his last words.

It does, however, add depth to the Revan player character though, who should be profoundly affected by the revelation, for good or ill (depending on the player's whim).

It definately adds depth. Hes not 100% a total thug. Think about it. He USED to be the savior of the Republic and then something happened with you and him that made them turn and be the destroyers of the Republic. Thats not a totally shallow character. Theres depth.

Emperor Devon
08-06-2006, 12:08 AM
I generally dont read datapads. However, I thought her datapad just said that they were keeping her there but she made an account to open a door.

A poor idea in a game that does not spoon-feed you the story. That is what her datapad said, but it seems like more than a coincidence that Sion kept a Jedi alive for an extended period of time, and that she just happened to die after you arrived on Korriban, no? ;)

stoffe
08-06-2006, 07:42 AM
not to mention that there were actual Sith soldiers walking around Taris, Manaan, and Korriban.


Who posed absolutely zero threat to you. You could walk up to them and introduce yourself and all they would do would be to laugh at you and tell you to go away. Some threat. :)

You never felt any pressing need to stay out of sight and keep a low profile whenever there were Sith troopers about.

You could be the arena champion and swooprace master, both fairly "public" events, and the Sith would never take notice. I guess the Sith don't watch holo-television unlike everyone else. Davik even said that the fight after the swoop race was broadcast on holo-tv, and Bastila took part in that, so the Sith were either utterly incompetent or had no idea who Malak wanted them to look for. :)


If those guys were after you they needed a cutscene having someone tell them to get you.
(...snip...)
Meh it may not have been coincidence but once again it is not made clear. If you have to have one party member with you or have to read the datapads to get whats going on thats a problem.
(...snip...)
It should be said directly though because...
(...snip...)
In my view its ok not to spell things out 100%, but they gotta make it clear. (oxymoron?)


This seems to be the core difference in our views on the game. I don't mind games where not every minute detail of the plot is shouted to your face but you have to shop around yourself a bit to figure out all the pieces of what is going on. It gives you more of an "Aha!" experience and sense of accomplishment when you aren't spoonfed everything and told exactly what is going on. But that's just my opinion, which may be why I think TSL was overall a very good game, unlike most others who voice their opinions. :)

Sion drops plenty of hints whenever he shows up that he is after the Exile personally because of Kreia and jealousy (male) or obsession/infatuation which is a weakness (female). He and his goons follow their usual modus operandi of setting ambushes and attacking from the shadows rather than Malaks head-on chase. Doesn't make them any less committed to getting the Exile, in my opinion.

Nihilus wants you enough to bother sending his Seer apprentice to find you. That should say a lot for an individual who supposedly no longer concerns himself with "mortals" and thinks on a higher plane. Valku and Tobin makes no secret of their alliance with Nihilus to help overthrow Queen Talia. Tobin says they have been told to keep an eye out for you and tries to take you down when you arrive.

Kreia gives plenty of hints if you talk to her and bring her along that she has fallen from both the Jedi and the Sith and are generally fed up with both. Her special treatment of you compared to how she disdains everyone else strongly suggests she has her own plans and uses for you. Uses which she spells out clearly if you talk to her at the end, but hints are dropped throughout the game.



Meh I didnt mean how hard she is to fight or something. I just meant that an enemy that is so weak minded in her evil that she is easily turned to the light isnt all that bad ass.


Personally I find it rather refreshing with enemies who don't suicidally fight to the death no matter what, which seems to be the norm in RPGs but which isn't really all that realistic. I prefer someone with a wounded personality who can be swayed to betray her master, rather than a two bit thug like Darth Bandon with a "Oneliner + fight to the death" personality. Again a matter of choice I suppose. :)

Now, it would have been even nicer if the choice of actually sparing Visas or killing her anyway despite her surrender was left in the hands of the player. It would have been an excellent opportunity for moral choices. :)


Malak sends a bunch of people after you. Nihilus only sends Visas, or at least thats all you see him sending


Calo Nord and Darth Bandon are "a bunch"? :) Both sends their apprentices, and Nihilus sends the Dxun strike force when Tobin informs him of your presence, even though they don't have notes attached to their forheads saying "Tobin told us where to find you, Nihilus sends his regards.". :p Malak is more theatric about it with the little cutscenes where he dispatches his agents, conveniently one at a time, but the end result is essentially the same. :)


It definately adds depth. Hes not 100% a total thug. Think about it. He USED to be the savior of the Republic and then something happened with you and him that made them turn and be the destroyers of the Republic. Thats not a totally shallow character. Theres depth.

He used to be Revan's faithful guard dog who did what his master told him to do and attacked what Revan told him to attack. :D A strong fearless warrior leading the charge into battle from the front, inspiring the troops, in accordance with Revan's strategy. Revan was the Brain and Malak was the Brawn. While Jedi he followed out of admiration and respect, while Sith because Revan was his master and teacher.

As the Dark Lord he was homocidal Brawn without brains unleashed upon the galaxy. If it wasn't for competent commanders like Saul working under him the Sith organization would likely have collapsed not long after Revan's fall. Malak is a good villain, just as much as Darth Vader is a good villain. But he is a good "antagonist's right hand" type of villain IMHO, not a good chief villain since he's not an evil mastermind. He's just a very powerful, but simple, enforcer. Scheming, calculating chief villains are more fun. :)

RobQel-Droma
08-06-2006, 06:52 PM
A lot of people have said it... If you like the traditional villian, Malak is good. He was also very close to the old Star Wars villians like Darth Vader, etc. I think that the TSL Sith had their flaws, but they were very complex and interesting. It would have been better if you hadn't been able to kick their three butts across the modules (each of them had their strong points, but in a sense, they were all pretty easy for me to get rid of). It would have been nice if you had been able to understand more about them, but hey... I like the mystery part.

lessthanjake2
08-08-2006, 01:08 AM
Who posed absolutely zero threat to you. You could walk up to them and introduce yourself and all they would do would be to laugh at you and tell you to go away. Some threat.

They werent a threat but you could SEE the enemy around you, which is something I liked.

You could be the arena champion and swooprace master, both fairly "public" events, and the Sith would never take notice. I guess the Sith don't watch holo-television unlike everyone else. Davik even said that the fight after the swoop race was broadcast on holo-tv, and Bastila took part in that, so the Sith were either utterly incompetent or had no idea who Malak wanted them to look for.

Haha I never heard Davik say that. Thats pretty funny actually.

This seems to be the core difference in our views on the game. I don't mind games where not every minute detail of the plot is shouted to your face but you have to shop around yourself a bit to figure out all the pieces of what is going on. It gives you more of an "Aha!" experience and sense of accomplishment when you aren't spoonfed everything and told exactly what is going on. But that's just my opinion, which may be why I think TSL was overall a very good game, unlike most others who voice their opinions.

I dont want to be spoonfed stuff either but TSL is too much of an extreme of the opposite of spoonfeeding. A normal gamer should be able to pretty much understand the entire plot with one playthrough. I doubt a majority of people who played TSL really understood it on the first playthrough. After playing through it a bunch more times, I for one will admit that I didnt really understand it my first run. The thing is that all the information IS there but many times you get only some of the information you need in a single playthrough. There are very important things that you only are told if you choose to do a certain thing. I also like having the "Aha!" moments, but when it happens on your 3rd or 4th playthrough of the game, theres a problem. It should happen on the first or at the very least the second time.

Sion drops plenty of hints whenever he shows up that he is after the Exile personally because of Kreia and jealousy (male) or obsession/infatuation which is a weakness (female). He and his goons follow their usual modus operandi of setting ambushes and attacking from the shadows rather than Malaks head-on chase. Doesn't make them any less committed to getting the Exile, in my opinion.

When does he say hes after the Exile personally? Before the very end, the only time he talks to you is on Korriban, and he more or less just says he's jealous of you cause Kreia picked you. Besides being a rather weak reason to stalk someone, it also doesnt make him sound super committed to getting you.

Nihilus wants you enough to bother sending his Seer apprentice to find you. That should say a lot for an individual who supposedly no longer concerns himself with "mortals" and thinks on a higher plane. Valku and Tobin makes no secret of their alliance with Nihilus to help overthrow Queen Talia. Tobin says they have been told to keep an eye out for you and tries to take you down when you arrive.

He sends Visas (who he doesnt really care about) but afterwards it is not made all that clear that hes trying to get to you. In fact all in all I'd say the hints go the other way on that one, and show that hes NOT after you. And you can bring up all you want about how he sent assassins after you on Dxun and stuff, but as I will explain later, it is not made clear until the end that those sith assassins were from Nihilus. And as a result, WHILE you are playing the game you arent getting the feeling that Nihilus is after you.

Furthermore, you shouldnt have to only understand at the very end of the game why Tobin shot at you over Dxun. By the time you realize Nihilus and Vaklu/Tobin were allies (which can be very late in the game), very few are gonna remember that small part way earlier and realize the connection. Too much other stuff is going on at that point in the game. But thats just one example of the MANY things that the normal player wont get until after playing it a few times. And thats the problem. Most dont play the game more than once.

Kreia gives plenty of hints if you talk to her and bring her along that she has fallen from both the Jedi and the Sith and are generally fed up with both. Her special treatment of you compared to how she disdains everyone else strongly suggests she has her own plans and uses for you. Uses which she spells out clearly if you talk to her at the end, but hints are dropped throughout the game.

Her uses for you are NOT clear. She wants to use you to end the force? But how? Thats something I STILL dont know after playing it many times.

Personally I find it rather refreshing with enemies who don't suicidally fight to the death no matter what, which seems to be the norm in RPGs but which isn't really all that realistic. I prefer someone with a wounded personality who can be swayed to betray her master, rather than a two bit thug like Darth Bandon with a "Oneliner + fight to the death" personality. Again a matter of choice I suppose.

It may be refreshing but Visas is the main thing Nihilus sends to fight you, but shes just NOT very evil or anything.

Now, it would have been even nicer if the choice of actually sparing Visas or killing her anyway despite her surrender was left in the hands of the player. It would have been an excellent opportunity for moral choices.

I was about to say that. Couldnt you kill Juhani in KOTOR 1? Cause I definately remember playing a dark side guy and picking the "Time to die" option every time with her and then being shocked when I actually killed her.

Calo Nord and Darth Bandon are "a bunch"? Both sends their apprentices, and Nihilus sends the Dxun strike force when Tobin informs him of your presence, even though they don't have notes attached to their forheads saying "Tobin told us where to find you, Nihilus sends his regards.". Malak is more theatric about it with the little cutscenes where he dispatches his agents, conveniently one at a time, but the end result is essentially the same.

In case you dont remember (and I am not saying that with an attitude, I didnt remember it either until playing KOTOR 1 again recently), you have frequent meetings with Dark Jedi who say stuff like "Lord Malak was most displeased to learn you had escaped Taris alive. He would love it if we killed you"

And as I said before, its not a question of not having notes attached, its a question of it being something that a normal person wont realize their first time playing the game. If you support Talia, you learn that Nihilus and Vaklu/Tobin were working together at the end of the game when Telos is attacked (if you even do put two and two together on that one). Thats far too late for a normal person to look back at a trivial thing like that and realize that its possible Tobin told them you were on Dxun.

He's just a very powerful, but simple, enforcer. Scheming, calculating chief villains are more fun.

Not when their schemes dont make any sense, like Kreia's. Her scheme is totally ridiculous and impossible to understand.

And you can say what you want about Malak but the fact is that hes more than just a guy who is out to destroy stuff. Thats what he is on the surface, but his character has more to it than that due to his history.

YertyL
08-08-2006, 05:10 AM
O_o Now that's a long post

Master Urza
08-08-2006, 05:21 AM
Dance Malak, Dance!!
:smash:

Malak was a great villian :D > . >
...as cliche as he was

I'd have to give him the award. However...had TSL been better...(Just plain better PERIOD) It wouldn't be Malak.

Its near impossible for anyone to fight for the other 3-4 as "good" baddies because they were so horribly displayed in the piece of crap TSL is. :D

I will say this...Sicon was BAD @$$$$$$
And Nihilus was SEXY

I hate Keria, and if you don't hate her, you should.

I'll bet my right genetal on the fact that if you had poll for best baddie Keria would be at the bottom.

Ztalker
08-08-2006, 06:30 AM
Of the two games, I find Malak the coolest one.
His story is litteraly 'waved' into yours. He has connections with Bastilla, Carth, HK-47. This makes him more 'human' in some sort of way. More human then Sion, Traya or Nihilus can ever hope to be.
Plus the fact that Malak is strong, and uses a longsaber. This makes him more unique then any other enemy.

stoffe
08-08-2006, 07:48 AM
They werent a threat but you could SEE the enemy around you, which is something I liked.


Different modus operandi for Malak's Sith Empire and the remnant Sith factions under Nihilus and Sion. The Empire was a strong organization with a huge standing army and navy, able to move openly and confront its enemies (Republic, Jedi) in open war.

Sion/Nihilus were instead operating in secret to eliminate the Jedi without being bothered or challenged by the Republic. They were powerful, but not strong enough to take on the Republic military head on in open war since their factions were not large enough for that, even thoug the Republic was severely weakened. And they had no interest in doing so, since the Jedi were their chief concern.

If you are operating in secret it is an advantage not to be seen and make your presence known everywhere.



I dont want to be spoonfed stuff either but TSL is too much of an extreme of the opposite of spoonfeeding. A normal gamer should be able to pretty much understand the entire plot with one playthrough.


The balance act between telling/showing everything clearly, and offering replay value. I'm not saying TSL got that balance perfect, but in my opinion the game did have somewhat higher replay value than what KotOR1 did. You'd essentially have to follow a walkthrough to be able to squeeze every bit of information out of the game in one playthrough, though I admit that certain things (such as the Kreia's fall FMV) certainly should have been less optional in their nature. :)

I can agree with you that plot-critical information shouldn't be conveyed via optional high-influence dialog options with characters who are hard to influence. Nor should it be conveyed via loadscreen hints, like it was during the somewhat less coherent last planet.



When does he say hes after the Exile personally? Before the very end, the only time he talks to you is on Korriban, and he more or less just says he's jealous of you cause Kreia picked you.


I think that the short conversation before you fight on Korriban reveals that. The relevant parts:

Sion: "I have studied you, immersed myself in you. I know the paths you walked in exile. I know your teacher. I know the fires that raged upon the Dxun moon while the Republic died around you. You know war. You know battle. And I know of Malachor. You know what it means to be broken. The one who travels with you will destroy you, as she did me. I can end it before it begins."

Exile: "What do you want with Kreia?"

Sion: "I want her to die, and see all that she has built cast down. All that she holds dear, in shards at her feet. "

Exile: "I won't let you harm her"

Sion: "But you do not know her as I do. You have not survived her teachings, as I have. And you have not bested her in battle, as I have. You are nothing. Yet still she walks with you, is willing to sacrifice herself for you!"

And after you flee the battle:


Sion: {Sion watches the player flee, his face indecisive. The Sith assassins gather behind him, and as one moves forward, he cuts them down with a backslash.} "Do not harm her. I command it. {Slight respect} She... has earned this. She and I will meet again."


This, in combination with what he reveals on Malachor if you pick the correct responses (since you can't pick all the available ones in a single encounter) makes me feel that he is both jealous at and obsessed with the Exile which is why he hunts her in particular. Kreia still has a strong mental hold over him even though he managed to cast her down, making him jealous of the Exile. And Obsession/infatuation is a weakness, so he wants to rid himself of that weakness (though he's somewhat conflicted about it, as the "final battle" on Malachor shows.).

Not "in your face" obvious perhaps, but in my opinion the indications are there. Sion wants all Jedi dead, but has a special interest in the Exile.


He sends Visas (who he doesnt really care about) but afterwards it is not made all that clear that hes trying to get to you.


He sends Visas to bring the Exile to him (or kill her if that's not possible), and in the end Visas does just that, though perhaps not in the way and with the intentions that was expected. :) Since Visas has this special "Seer" gift that Kreia mentions, she if anyone should be able to find this elusive ex-Jedi who has kept hidden so long.

And I think it would be wrong to assume that Nihilus doesn't care what happens to Visas. He's force bonded with her and uses her as some sort of force focus for his power. If she's killed Nihilus is severely weakened (as shown if you are evil enough to make Visas commit suicide during the battle). If she disrupts her connection with him he's somewhat weakened (as shown if you don't have Visas kill herself during the battle). Visas is not entirely unimportant to Nihilus.

Which is why you are forced to use the Exile, Visas and Mandalore when boarding the Ravager. Any other party composition (well, except perhaps the droids) would have been doomed to fail:
Nihilus can't "feed" on the Exile due to her special condition.
Nihilus won't "feed" on Visas since they are bonded and he has use for her.
Nihilus won't "feed" on Mandalore since he's the only non-droid in your group who's not force sensitive and thus not worth the effort it would take.


Thus he's left weak, unable to use his greatest strength during the confrontation. :)


it is not made clear until the end that those sith assassins were from Nihilus.


Well, they were wearing the uniforms of Nihilus faction. Nihilus assassins and dark jedi have the "flat" face mask with small dark eye slits. Sions assassins have the face shaped masks with big red goggle lenses. Though I suppose that's not something you know during the first playthough. :)


Furthermore, you shouldnt have to only understand at the very end of the game why Tobin shot at you over Dxun. By the time you realize Nihilus and Vaklu/Tobin were allies (which can be very late in the game), very few are gonna remember that small part way earlier and realize the connection.


In my opinion that's just part of uncovering the plot as you go. If you would immediately know everything about the motivations and allegiences of Vaklu, Tobin and Nihilus as soon as you arrive in the Onderon system then you wouldn't have to play to figure out what's going on, and the choices on Onderon would be much easier since you'd know from the start that Vaklu was the "evil" choice. (As it is now you can side with Vaklu without getting any darkside points, and the only ill effect resulting from it is you'll have no choice but to kill Kavar later in the game whether you want to or not.)



It may be refreshing but Visas is the main thing Nihilus sends to fight you, but shes just NOT very evil or anything.


Which is not necessarily a bad thing, if you ask me. Adversaries who are not evil (or even acts with good intent, though that's not the case here) can be more interesting than stereotypical evil villains.

Visas may surrender and seemingly switch sides, but you have no way of knowing her loyalties or if she will betray you at a crucial moment until the game is nearly over. Having her along would be a gamble. (At least it would if you had any choice in the matter. But such a lack of choice could just as well be seen as an indication that she is plot critical and required for a betrayal further down the road. :)) It didn't turn out that way, but during your first playthrough you wouldn't know that.


You have frequent meetings with Dark Jedi who say stuff like "Lord Malak was most displeased to learn you had escaped Taris alive. He would love it if we killed you"


Yes, the Lord Malak Displeasure Delegations. After the first two planets it was actually more surprising that there wasn't such a group waiting for you on Manaan than it would have been if they were there. I actually had to look around carefully so I hadn't missed them. :)

Again a difference in how they operate. Malak's forces are like him, brute force head on, no trickery or deceit. Thus they stand out in the open where you can see them a mile away and prepare well before the confrontation. While the Assassins make an effort not to be seen until they strike, and won't waste time chatting before attacking, allowing their enemy time to prepare. :)

The LMDDs act in a more theatrical but not very realistic way, like Malak does. I think you can draw a parallel to Dark Maul. Maul doesn't waste time introducing himself and outlining his intentions before he enters combat with his opponents. :) There was no "Lord Sidious was most displeased when he learned that you had escaped Tatooine alive..." speech in the Naboo hangar. Only megalomanics boast to their opponents of their plans "since I'm going to kill you anyway" and throw away the initiative and element of surprise in the process.



Not when their schemes dont make any sense, like Kreia's. Her scheme is totally ridiculous and impossible to understand.


Not going to argue with you about that. Kreia was a good scheming mastermind type character for most of the game. It's a shame that mystery couldn't be maintained with a worthy and believable motive for the scheming at the end. :) Kreia was probably as inspired by Palpatine as Malak was inspired by Vader.

In my opinion it would have been better if the whole "Kill the Force" part had been skipped entirely and her now secondary motives had been her main ones. It would have felt more believable since she was cast from both the Jedi and Sith and embraced the philosophy of neither. The motives outlined in this conversation:

Exile: "You were manipulating me all along."

Kreia: "Yes, always. From the moment you awoke, I have used you. I have used you so that you might become strong, stronger than I."

Exile: "So you used me to get revenge on Sion and the others."

Kreia: "I used you to keep the Lords of the Sith from condemning the galaxy to death with their power unchecked. I used you to lure them to Telos, where they could be, at last, fought and killed. I used you to reveal Atris' corruption, so that her teachings could be ended before they began. I used you to gather the Jedi so they could be destroyed. And I used you to make those who wounded me reveal themselves, so they could be killed by the Republic."


I'm not trying to say that the plot in TSL was in any way superior to the plot in K1, because I don't think so. I'm just saying I don't agree that it was, in general terms, that much of a difference between how K1 and TSL were laid out, and that TSL would be so much worse than K1 as you seem to think. :)


And you can say what you want about Malak but the fact is that hes more than just a guy who is out to destroy stuff. Thats what he is on the surface, but his character has more to it than that due to his history.

If he is, they it's not very apparent, since for 99.9% of the game he does not show anything else but the surface. The only crack in the facade that can be seen is when he lies dying on the floor. And by then the game is essentially over.

lessthanjake2
08-09-2006, 01:30 AM
Different modus operandi for Malak's Sith Empire and the remnant Sith factions under Nihilus and Sion. The Empire was a strong organization with a huge standing army and navy, able to move openly and confront its enemies (Republic, Jedi) in open war.

Sion/Nihilus were instead operating in secret to eliminate the Jedi without being bothered or challenged by the Republic. They were powerful, but not strong enough to take on the Republic military head on in open war since their factions were not large enough for that, even thoug the Republic was severely weakened. And they had no interest in doing so, since the Jedi were their chief concern.

If you are operating in secret it is an advantage not to be seen and make your presence known everywhere.

No, I realize WHY, just saying that it made them seem like less of a threat. You yourself basically just said they werent as strong as the Sith from KOTOR 1. I dont know. Maybe it is just me, but I really thought it was cool to be able to walk around cities where there were enemy soldiers there too.

The balance act between telling/showing everything clearly, and offering replay value. I'm not saying TSL got that balance perfect, but in my opinion the game did have somewhat higher replay value than what KotOR1 did.

I meant to include that in my last post in response to you saying you like TSL. I like it a lot too and I was gonna say that if I were to replay KOTOR 1 or 2 again, i'd probably go with 2. It is a good game, I just dont get the same feeling of taking on an awesome enemy as I did in KOTOR 1.

This, in combination with what he reveals on Malachor if you pick the correct responses (since you can't pick all the available ones in a single encounter) makes me feel that he is both jealous at and obsessed with the Exile which is why he hunts her in particular. Kreia still has a strong mental hold over him even though he managed to cast her down, making him jealous of the Exile. And Obsession/infatuation is a weakness, so he wants to rid himself of that weakness (though he's somewhat conflicted about it, as the "final battle" on Malachor shows.).

Not "in your face" obvious perhaps, but in my opinion the indications are there. Sion wants all Jedi dead, but has a special interest in the Exile.

See I feel like hes got a special interest in Kreia, and maybe by default is interested in you because of that.

Well, they were wearing the uniforms of Nihilus faction. Nihilus assassins and dark jedi have the "flat" face mask with small dark eye slits. Sions assassins have the face shaped masks with big red goggle lenses. Though I suppose that's not something you know during the first playthough.

Yeah, by that time you dont know that at all. I did my first playthrough a long time ago, but I think I originally thought those were Sion's guys.

In my opinion that's just part of uncovering the plot as you go. If you would immediately know everything about the motivations and allegiences of Vaklu, Tobin and Nihilus as soon as you arrive in the Onderon system then you wouldn't have to play to figure out what's going on, and the choices on Onderon would be much easier since you'd know from the start that Vaklu was the "evil" choice. (As it is now you can side with Vaklu without getting any darkside points, and the only ill effect resulting from it is you'll have no choice but to kill Kavar later in the game whether you want to or not.)

Uncovering the plot as you go along is cool, but not when something happens when you first go to Onderon and then the explanation for it is only hinted at during the end sequence of the game. It should at least be hinted at later on during your first Onderon visit.

Which is not necessarily a bad thing, if you ask me. Adversaries who are not evil (or even acts with good intent, though that's not the case here) can be more interesting than stereotypical evil villains.

Visas may surrender and seemingly switch sides, but you have no way of knowing her loyalties or if she will betray you at a crucial moment until the game is nearly over. Having her along would be a gamble. (At least it would if you had any choice in the matter. But such a lack of choice could just as well be seen as an indication that she is plot critical and required for a betrayal further down the road. ) It didn't turn out that way, but during your first playthrough you wouldn't know that.

Meh I never got the feeling she would betray me. I guess I thought about it but I doubted it cause she was doing all that "My life for yours" stuff.

Yes, the Lord Malak Displeasure Delegations. After the first two planets it was actually more surprising that there wasn't such a group waiting for you on Manaan than it would have been if they were there. I actually had to look around carefully so I hadn't missed them.

Again a difference in how they operate. Malak's forces are like him, brute force head on, no trickery or deceit. Thus they stand out in the open where you can see them a mile away and prepare well before the confrontation. While the Assassins make an effort not to be seen until they strike, and won't waste time chatting before attacking, allowing their enemy time to prepare.

I am not concerned with how they attack, its just that you had to deal with attacks from the main adversaries more in KOTOR 1 than in TSL.

In my opinion it would have been better if the whole "Kill the Force" part had been skipped entirely and her now secondary motives had been her main ones. It would have felt more believable since she was cast from both the Jedi and Sith and embraced the philosophy of neither. The motives outlined in this conversation:

Yeah it wouldve been better. I also sorta wouldve liked it if it werent so obvious that she was manipulating you all along. I mean I knew it almost right away. It didnt have to be a "You are Revan" surprise, but it shouldve been a "Wow I totally didnt understand Kreia until now" moment.

If he is, they it's not very apparent, since for 99.9% of the game he does not show anything else but the surface. The only crack in the facade that can be seen is when he lies dying on the floor. And by then the game is essentially over.

THats because during the course of the game hes already totally on the dark side. But the interesting nature of his character comes in the fact that he used to be a hero of the Republic. IMO thats what made Revan so interesting too. He wasnt just a redeemed Dark Lord (assuming you go light side at the end). He was a savior, turned enemy, turned savior of the Republic.

Niftyeye
08-09-2006, 07:34 AM
well iv never played the first game, but iv read that malak is a more traditional sith lord, Darth Nilius seemed really cool, and i was dreaded when i had to fight him, I wiped the floor with him! sions was a complete wimp too, I liked the twist for Darth Traya/Kreia, but she went down quick too. It is kinda weird how all the characters are built up, and then complete wimps ingame

stoffe
08-09-2006, 06:30 PM
well iv never played the first game, but iv read that malak is a more traditional sith lord, Darth Nilius seemed really cool, and i was dreaded when i had to fight him, I wiped the floor with him! sions was a complete wimp too, I liked the twist for Darth Traya/Kreia, but she went down quick too. It is kinda weird how all the characters are built up, and then complete wimps ingame

I think it's as much of a problem with unbalancing equipment as it is a problem with too weak enemies. You find enormous heaps of very powerful items in the game to equip your party with, while most enemies in the game fight nearly naked. They have their (non-upgraded) weapon and, at most, a body armor (though most enemies with unique appearances don't even have armor).

When you cruise around with fully upgraded armor, weapons, implants making you immune to everything and other gear boosting your attributes things are bound to become easy. At least I found the game harder early on when you hadn't accumulated so much powerful items and upgrades yet.

If you think the game is too easy you can handicap yourself. Try fighting the enemies like they fight you, with only a weapon (and some grenades), armor, an energy shield you're only allowed to use once per fight, and nothing more in the way of equipment, and see if it's still easy. ;)

lessthanjake2
08-09-2006, 09:05 PM
I think it's as much of a problem with unbalancing equipment as it is a problem with too weak enemies. You find enormous heaps of very powerful items in the game to equip your party with, while most enemies in the game fight nearly naked. They have their (non-upgraded) weapon and, at most, a body armor (though most enemies with unique appearances don't even have armor).

When you cruise around with fully upgraded armor, weapons, implants making you immune to everything and other gear boosting your attributes things are bound to become easy. At least I found the game harder early on when you hadn't accumulated so much powerful items and upgrades yet.

If you think the game is too easy you can handicap yourself. Try fighting the enemies like they fight you, with only a weapon (and some grenades), armor, an energy shield you're only allowed to use once per fight, and nothing more in the way of equipment, and see if it's still easy. ;)

Yeah you are right about that one. I really love the upgrade system of KOTOR 2. I think it adds a totally new aspect to the game that KOTOR 1 didnt have. It makes skills worth it. But at the same time, it is the upgrades that makes the game too easy.

lukeiamyourdad
08-09-2006, 09:34 PM
One thing is sure, developers should have taken that into consideration and increase the difficulty.
You shouldn't have to fight with your hands tied to get a decent challenge.

JoesGuy
08-19-2006, 12:26 PM
I think TSL's antagonists suffered mostly due to the game's focusing too heavily on the Exile. Think about it for a minute. Everything that happens in the game is in some way related to the exile and their involvement in the Mandalorian Wars, so much so that everything else seems to crach and burn around it.

Vegard Aune
08-30-2006, 02:21 PM
I prefer Malak, as he has a bigger role in the game than Sion or Nihilus. (I mean, seriously. You only see Nihilus ONCE in the game before you kill him, and Sion, two times before Malachor.) Traya was there for the entire game, but you didn't really know that. (Okay, the fact that she is a sith is ridiccolously obvious, but that's just guessing.) Malak on the other hand, you see him try to kill you in some way three times before you actually meet him, and then he kidnaps a team-member and reveals your identity, which emphasises his character. Then you get to the Star Forge assault, and the final battle with Malak, which seems hugely more climactic than the battle with Traya.

Ambrose
08-30-2006, 02:34 PM
Malak vs. Sion/Traya/Nihilus basically represents the battle of KotOR vs. TSL. Malak is far more of a traditional villain character, much like Darth Vader in fact. KotOR is just a far more clean cut, straightforward storyline.

TSL, on the other hand, is a LOT different, and consequently so are the villains. The TSL storyline is far more complex and subtle, and so are the villains. It's far less Star Wars-ish than KotOR, in my opinion, but that's not to say its not as good. It boils down to personal taste.

Those who like traditional Star Wars-esque stories will like KotOR and Malak more. They represent more direct confrontations. There is a real and recognizeable war in KotOR, with two well-defined sides. Those who are big into subtle stories are going to like TSL more- the sides in the "conflict" are far less clear, and in fact you don't have any idea who or what you're ULTIMATELY fighting, if anything, for most of the storyline.

So pretty much it's different villains for different storytelling styles.

I think TSL's antagonists suffered mostly due to the game's focusing too heavily on the Exile. Think about it for a minute. Everything that happens in the game is in some way related to the exile and their involvement in the Mandalorian Wars, so much so that everything else seems to crach and burn around it.

Remember here that in the end, everything is guided by Darth Traya. She is the main villain, really, and her goals revolve around the Exile. That's why the Exile is such a big deal. S/he is the final goal of the Sith who really pulls the strings.

Gavroche
08-30-2006, 03:21 PM
Kreia said it, Malak is different of the Sith the Exile fought.

First, they haven't the same goal. Malak wanted to conquire the Republic, Sion and Nihilus wanted the death of the last Jedis, and Traya planed the death of the Force itself...

Malak's power was based on the Star Forge, which produced the fleet he needed to defeat the Republic and converted the energy of the Jedi into a Dark Side-power reserve. The others (except Sion maybe, because if he regenerated against the Exile, it was thanks to the DS energy of Korriban and Malachor) were strong enough in the Force to beat Malak without any artifice.

But we can't compare incomparable things. Malak was a conqueror, a warrior, who needed an innumerable fleet, the others were assassins who needed discretion, patience and cunning.

The own power of Malak is ridiculously inferior against the abilities of the three other Sith Lords.

Jediphile
08-30-2006, 05:19 PM
I prefer the TSL villains. They are far more complex and haunting than Malak, who was a very traditional villain, and not in a good way. And basically Malak is just a powerhungry thug with no tactical skill or finesse, as G0-T0 mentions in TSL. Sure, the jaw thing was pretty cool, but it really ruined it for me was the oh-so-evil laughter - they might as well have given him a black hat and a moustache to twirl... Yuck! :(

TSL's villains were far more interesting. Sion was a shattered person held together by will alone, yet had no humanity left in him, which becomes his ultimate downfall. And Traya is as deceptive as they come, while Nihilus is not just spooky and mysterious but the walking death incarnate. That you didn't see him much just added to how scary he was. And even after the Exile "kills" him, I STILL wonder about him... No, the TSL villains were definitely far more memorable.

Vaelastraz
09-04-2006, 02:58 PM
I prefer the TSL villains. They are far more complex and haunting than Malak, who was a very traditional villain, and not in a good way. And basically Malak is just a powerhungry thug with no tactical skill or finesse, as G0-T0 mentions in TSL. Sure, the jaw thing was pretty cool, but it really ruined it for me was the oh-so-evil laughter - they might as well have given him a black hat and a moustache to twirl... Yuck! :(

TSL's villains were far more interesting. Sion was a shattered person held together by will alone, yet had no humanity left in him, which becomes his ultimate downfall. And Traya is as deceptive as they come, while Nihilus is not just spooky and mysterious but the walking death incarnate. That you didn't see him much just added to how scary he was. And even after the Exile "kills" him, I STILL wonder about him... No, the TSL villains were definitely far more memorable.


I disagree.

Let's see:

Traya:
Kreia is a very good Characters, she has a plan ( a ridiculous one though) and she is cunning and smart.
But final boss, uber villain? No, that doesn't make it.
And her flying lightsaber style just looked ridiculous and sucked.
But she's the best out of the TSL villains.

Sion:
Alright. A big bad Sith who wants to slaughter every Jedi. Nothing else. He doesn't want power, he doesn't want anything. Except the death of all Jedi.
He's a minion, who doesn't really serve a purpose.

Nihilus:
Ah my favourite one...
Nihilus looks cool. No doubt. Intentions? Kill every living being.
Nihilus is no character, he is an abnomiation.
Where does he come from?
Well, the mandalorian war "created" him. And gave him the power to consume hole worlds just like that. Which makes him the most powerful being ever. Fortunately the Exile is immune to that power, and it just so happens Nihilus sucks in lightsaber combat. Lame.
IMO, we do not need villains with demi-good like powers in Star Wars. That is ridiculous.

Where is the tactical skill or finesse of the TSL villains? 2 of them are mindless monsters. One of them I admit is smart cunning and well done, but doesn't fit as the ultimate villain.

Malak's appearance is great, his voice is too. His dialogs are good, his background story with Revan is great, he leads an open war against the Republic not a "shadow war".

Malak ftw.

Totenkopf
09-04-2006, 03:21 PM
Originally Posted by Niftyeye:
well iv never played the first game, but iv read that malak is a more traditional sith lord, Darth Nilius seemed really cool, and i was dreaded when i had to fight him, I wiped the floor with him! sions was a complete wimp too, I liked the twist for Darth Traya/Kreia, but she went down quick too. It is kinda weird how all the characters are built up, and then complete wimps ingame.
-------------------------------------------------
Actually, none of those characters are so easy to beat unless you've been levelling up as you play the game. Remember that the PC is as weak or strong as you make it. If you cheat, then all your opponents may end up being ridiculously easy to defeat. I do have to note, though, that since Kreia seems to put you down so easily near the end, are you really defeating her in the core or does she just give up, feeling that her goals have finally been accomplished? Think about some of her comments in her backstory.

stoffe
09-04-2006, 04:01 PM
I do have to note, though, that since Kreia seems to put you down so easily near the end, are you really defeating her in the core or does she just give up, feeling that her goals have finally been accomplished? Think about some of her comments in her backstory.

I'd think she wants you to truly be able to beat her on your own and isn't holding back in the final battle. She does kill you after all if you don't win; she doesn't stop when you are near death.

She wants you to become stronger than her, and that battle struck me as the final test to end your "apprenticeship" to her. If you win she has succeeded: you are stronger than her. If you lose then you were weaker than she thought and suffered the consequences thereof.

RobQel-Droma
09-04-2006, 07:01 PM
What made Malak a good villain were things that these villains simply did not have. He was a constant threat to you, in that he blew up an entire world just to get you, and was having bounty hunters going after you and his apprentice etc etc. None of these villains were ever really a threat to you.

Stoffe -mkb- said it. What about Peragus? And if you don't remember, Sion [b]did[/i] have villains coming after you. All (or close to all) those invisible guys called "Sith Assassins" were his, and controlled by him. They were everywhere, trying to kill you; in fact, I think that they were appeared more than dark Jedi in K1.

not to mention that there were actual Sith soldiers walking around Taris, Manaan, and Korriban.

But those Sith soldiers actually had no interest in you personally, did they? They were an enemy, but they would have been attacking anyone if that person decided to demolish their bases.

As the "Last of the Jedi" you were next on Nihilus menu, and he did send Visas, his apprentice, off to fetch you. He just was a bit less theatric about it than Darth Malak was (and Visas was not as much of a two-bit thug as Darth Bandon was so you didn't need to kill her.)

That's quite right. Nihilus was not a world-conquering rampaging maniac who wanted to destroy everything in his path anyways, it was not his character. He was all about feeding off of force sensitives; however, I agree with those who say he really didn't have that much to his character. He was a bit too mysterious, in the way that there was almost nothing to be mysterious about... he just kind of shows up and tries to feed off of your force power, no explanation.

I doubt a majority of people who played TSL really understood it on the first playthrough. After playing through it a bunch more times, I for one will admit that I didnt really understand it my first run. The thing is that all the information IS there but many times you get only some of the information you need in a single playthrough. There are very important things that you only are told if you choose to do a certain thing.

I guess that is a matter of opinion - I happen to like games that are like that, if they are done well. Makes you think a lot, although I'm not necessarily referring to TSL when I say this. In fact, there wasn't really much I didn't get that wasn't essential to the story, or that I needed to know for it to make sense. (as much as it could make sense)

And as a result, WHILE you are playing the game you arent getting the feeling that Nihilus is after you.

So? Why is that bad? If it wasn't explained at the end, of him being after you, I would agree, but why is it necessary to know exactly who is after you and why from the very start?

Her uses for you are NOT clear. She wants to use you to end the force? But how? Thats something I STILL dont know after playing it many times.

Not until the very end, no. But she does drop hints, and you do discover more and more as the game goes on. She reveals her uses at the end, when you finally understand her true purpose, which is understandable. I understand your question of "how", but the Exile was merely said to be "the end of the Force", and seeing as TSL wasn't an end to the series (even without any cut content), I can only assume that it will be answered later.

It may be refreshing but Visas is the main thing Nihilus sends to fight you, but shes just NOT very evil or anything.

True, but is she even very evil at the beginning? She's little more than a force-sensitive slave, tortured by Nihilus and "broken." (to use the databank on the official site) She just carries out his bidding because he says so.

Malak is a good villain, just as much as Darth Vader is a good villain. But he is a good "antagonist's right hand" type of villain IMHO, not a good chief villain since he's not an evil mastermind. He's just a very powerful, but simple, enforcer. Scheming, calculating chief villains are more fun.

Quoted for emphasis. To use an example, was Sidious the one controlling the Empire or Vader? With the story of K1, Malak fit perfectly. But being as complex and mysterious as TSL was, I don't think they could have another brawny maniac for a main villian.

And what don't you understand about Kreia's scheme?



[quote=lessthanjake2]And you can say what you want about Malak but the fact is that hes more than just a guy who is out to destroy stuff. Thats what he is on the surface, but his character has more to it than that due to his history

More to it like what? (not meant rudely)

No, I realize WHY, just saying that it made them seem like less of a threat. You yourself basically just said they werent as strong as the Sith from KOTOR 1. I dont know. Maybe it is just me, but I really thought it was cool to be able to walk around cities where there were enemy soldiers there too.

Well, Onderon was an example. And there were several other battles with lots of Sith forces. But beside that, that is the simple difference between the two games. It is not 4000 years before Yavin IV, it is now 3995 years. Times have changed, and the Sith Empire is not so much of an empire anymore. The story did not revolve around head-on confrontations with a powerful army in TSL, the story was much more personal.

Uncovering the plot as you go along is cool, but not when something happens when you first go to Onderon and then the explanation for it is only hinted at during the end sequence of the game. It should at least be hinted at later on during your first Onderon visit.

Personally, I think it depends on how much stuff you want spoon-fed to you, and how often.

I am not concerned with how they attack, its just that you had to deal with attacks from the main adversaries more in KOTOR 1 than in TSL.

How do you figure that? Malak (I'm guessing that's what you mean when you say main adversaries) attacks you twice. Nihilus is one battle, Sion is two, and Kreia is one. Unless I'm misunderstanding you.

Yeah you are right about that one. I really love the upgrade system of KOTOR 2. I think it adds a totally new aspect to the game that KOTOR 1 didnt have. It makes skills worth it. But at the same time, it is the upgrades that makes the game too easy.

Yeah, that is a recognizable problem. It was like they went from one extreme to the other - they need to find a balance with random/placed items, along with probably levels and upgrades.

I think the individual characters were just missing one of a possible two core elements. Malak was finished, he had much more work done on him, and he was a perfect bad villian. There wasn't that much of a complex or mysterious backstory, but that was unnecessary, what with the story and your identity.

As for Nihilus, Sion, and Kreia, they just felt like Obsidian didn't get to do all they needed to to make they mystery complete. They were very complex, but were actually shallow (with the possible exception of Kreia). However, the original conception of them was good, and they are very interesting characters. There just wasn't much there to speculate as to their purpose or backstory.

lukeiamyourdad
09-04-2006, 09:52 PM
Stoffe -mkb- said it. What about Peragus? And if you don't remember, Sion [b]did[/i] have villains coming after you. All (or close to all) those invisible guys called "Sith Assassins" were his, and controlled by him. They were everywhere, trying to kill you; in fact, I think that they were appeared more than dark Jedi in K1.

They did appear more then dark jedi in K1 (if you don't think about the Star Forge).
There's still a problem to it. They use sticks. OK, I know that it makes sense, sticks are less messy then a lightsaber but that is just lame.
You don't feel any sort of pride when you destroy stick wielding villains. I'm not saying that someone with the correct skill cannot kickass with a stick, but when you're going to tell a friend about it, he just might not be too impressed.

I don't mind fighting a few enemies wielding sticks, it's just kind of sad when it's his entire army...

Melly
09-04-2006, 09:59 PM
^^^Um, but they're assassins. There's nothing like giving yourself away with a loud snap-hiss. :p

Emperor Devon
09-04-2006, 10:29 PM
I don't mind fighting a few enemies wielding sticks, it's just kind of sad when it's his entire army...

That's why I gave them lightsabers. They look much better with those. It would be a better weapon for them to use anyhow, because it takes one hit to kill someone, unlike a stadd that you have to use quite a bit of force with. Other than how it makes a sound, a lightsaber would be a much more ideal weapon for an assassin than a large stick.

But despite that, they're not the same. It was good to be stalked by assassins, but I missed slaughtering platoons of Sith troopers. You never saw enough of those guys.

Alright. A big bad Sith who wants to slaughter every Jedi. Nothing else. He doesn't want power, he doesn't want anything. Except the death of all Jedi.

One of the reasons I like a female Exile more than a male one. I found how Sion loved her and hated both himself and her for that to be a wonderful break from the standard Sith Lord "I'm gonna wipe out the Jedi Odrer! Vengeance is mine! I'm the meanest Sith ever!! HA HA HA!!" routine.

Davinq
09-04-2006, 10:35 PM
^^^
SION Loved her? That's crazy! *begins new game as female*

Alright, back on topic...

I'll make this quick cause I gotta leave soon, I'll give each Sith the Cool Factor:

Revan - 8
Malak - 9
Sion - 9
Nihilus - 10 (Nihilus FTW!)
Traya - 8

RobQel-Droma
09-04-2006, 11:54 PM
Yes, Sion says some interesting things to a female, especially at the during the last battle with him on Malachor.

Totenkopf
09-04-2006, 11:57 PM
stoffe -mkb-:
She wants you to become stronger than her, and that battle struck me as the final test to end your "apprenticeship" to her. If you win she has succeeded: you are stronger than her. If you lose then you were weaker than she thought and suffered the consequences thereof.
-----------------------------------

Actually I was thinking more along the lines that when you consider the ease with which she deals with 3 masters, how is it that she appears incapable of dispatching the exile in a similiar fashion? Especially when the 3 of them almost strip you of your abilities, except for her interference. On top of which she leaves you incapacitated. That's why I suggested there may have been more going on the just a simple contest of apparent strength.

stoffe
09-05-2006, 05:30 AM
They did appear more then dark jedi in K1 (if you don't think about the Star Forge).
There's still a problem to it. They use sticks. OK, I know that it makes sense, sticks are less messy then a lightsaber but that is just lame.

Not so impressive looking, but it does indeed make sense seeing what they are trying to accomplish. When you try to eliminate an actor (the Jedi and their more powerful sympathisers in the Republic in this case) from the galactic scene through stealthy assassinations without anyone realizing what is happening until it's too late you will want to avoid discovery or to arouse suspicions. Lightsabers are noisy, emits light and they leave very characteristic wounds which would be akin to leaving a note on the victim saying "The Sith were here".

Those collapsable sticks are nondescript, easy to conceal, silent to use and leave normal blunt trauma wounds which could have been caused by anything from an accident, a wild animal, some thug, or stealthy assassins. But I agree they could have sacrificed some of the stealth for something a little more flashy, like collapsable Force Pikes or Electrostaves or something. :)



Actually I was thinking more along the lines that when you consider the ease with which she deals with 3 masters, how is it that she appears incapable of dispatching the exile in a similiar fashion?

The impression I got was that she killed the Masters with the NihilusDrain™, an impression reinforced by the text hovering above them if you click on their corpses if you compare it to how Visas describes DNs power. Remember what happened to Nihilus when he tried to use that power on the Exile? Kreia either knew or suspected that this would happen due to the Exile's unique "condition", or she wouldn't have orchestrated the confrontation with Darth Nihilus, whom she wanted dead, not made stronger.



But despite that, they're not the same. It was good to be stalked by assassins, but I missed slaughtering platoons of Sith troopers. You never saw enough of those guys.


For most of the game at least. On the Ebon Hawk just before leaving Peragus*, on war-torn Onderon, on Nihilus ship and on Malachor there were quite a lot of sith troopers. :)

* = If you don't shoot them with the turret and let them board you'll have to deal with roughly 25 Sith Troopers in direct combat on the ship. And if you powergame you will let them board, since you will get more XP this way, plus some of them drops some loot. :)

Jediphile
09-05-2006, 06:53 AM
The impression I got was that she killed the Masters with the NihilusDrain™, an impression reinforced by the text hovering above them if you click on their corpses if you compare it to how Visas describes DNs power.

Yes, I had a similar impression upon my second LS playthrough after already knowing of Nihilus' powers and the Exile's special abilities.

When you examine one of the dead masters, the text reads: "This master is dead... drained of life. His body is worse than lifeless, it's like an absence in the Force."

Sounds very similar to Nihilus' ability, albeit on a lesser scale, which makes me think that Kreia was herself a student of sorts in the Trayus Academy - she studied Nihilus' unique powers and learned a little bit of it. And she knows she can drain the masters without hurting the Exile, because the Exile cannot be drained, as Nihilus discovered the hard way.


Remember what happened to Nihilus when he tried to use that power on the Exile? Kreia either knew or suspected that this would happen due to the Exile's unique "condition", or she wouldn't have orchestrated the confrontation with Darth Nihilus, whom she wanted dead, not made stronger.

I think she knew. Kreia doesn't deny that she used the Exile at the end, and one of the things she used him for was to take her revenge against Nihilus for casting her out. And she knew the Exile would be perfect, because he was immune to Nihilus' draining abilities. Note how she keeps putting off the confronation with Nihilus, yet never describes his actual powers. She knows what will happen.

But of course that is not all she uses the Exile for. Kreia knows that she cannot wound the force, but she knows that the Exile can, and since she hates the force, she is quite content to die give her life to her greater goal of making the Exile grow stronger and widening the wound in the force as he does so. She knows that she can never wound the force, so the best she can do is to make the Exile as strong as possible and then hope that he will wound the force. That's exactly the goal she accomplishes at the end. The Exile may not become a believer, but then that was always the Exile's choice and not Kreia's. And she dies bringing the Exile as close as she can to her teachings.

Totenkopf
09-05-2006, 10:34 AM
stoffe -mkb-........Just b/c she didn't use the life force drain on the exile, ala Nihilus, doesn't mean she was necessarily weaker. Consider that she knew she needed to use the exile to "kill the force" (or at least her tormentors) and that once that objective was complete, her stated goals were fulfilled. Consider also that she claims she would have laid waste to the universe to save the exile. Seems to me she may have been ready to die after seeing her life's work achieved. I mean the exile must have had the equivalent of a power surge to go from being unable to defeat 3 masters to taking down Kreia in a relatively brief period of time. Seems a bit of a stretch, even in fiction. The exile couldn't even defeat Sion, except through psych warfare and Sion seemed a thrall to DT (or perhaps he was merely humoring her to fill the void in his existance?). It may just be that DT saw the Exile as solidly on the path of surpassing her, one more feather in her cap so to speak and was content to finally die. Or maybe the old hag finally did just run out of gas (depending on your luck).........

stoffe
09-05-2006, 12:37 PM
I mean the exile must have had the equivalent of a power surge to go from being unable to defeat 3 masters to taking down Kreia in a relatively brief period of time.


Assuming that Kreia would have hade a chance in a straight lightsaber fight against the three masters, if she hadn't used the NihilusDrain™, which is not by any means certain, and not very likely in my opinion. ;)

Just like Nihilus hardly would have been able to take on the whole Katarr conclave of hundreds of Jedi in a straight lightsaber fight if he hadn't used the NihilusDrain™ to kill them all before they even knew he was there. They both knew the "force hunger" power from Malachor, though Kreia's wasn't as strong with it as Nihilus (or has the wisdom not to indulge in using it needlessly, to avoid becoming a thrall to it like Nihilus). She used it to quickly deal with Vrook, Kavar and Ell, rather than fight them on their own terms which she may not have been successful in doing. Particularily not there, in a Jedi enclave which might be a place strong in the light side. :)

Since this power doesn't work on the Exile however, and she knows it, it is not an option and more traditional combat will have to suffice. Why would she attempt to do what she did to the Masters against the Exile during the final battle? It would serve no purpose but to weaken herself. It's not deliberately holding back, it's realizing this particular powerful tool is useless against this unique enemy she is facing. Just like you won't waste time and FP using Force Insanity if you know your opponent is a Jedi Sentinel.

Emperor Devon
09-05-2006, 01:51 PM
For most of the game at least. On the Ebon Hawk just before leaving Peragus*, on war-torn Onderon, on Nihilus ship and on Malachor there were quite a lot of sith troopers. :)

Unfortunately, DS characters don't get to fight any Sith troops. Nihilus' ship and Malachor were full of Sith commandos, but not standard troopers. It's like Luke fighting Royal Guardsmen and no stormtroopers. Thankfully, there are a few places in the game Sith troops can be implemented into while still fitting with the plot.

* = If you don't shoot them with the turret and let them board you'll have to deal with roughly 25 Sith Troopers in direct combat on the ship. And if you powergame you will let them board, since you will get more XP this way, plus some of them drops some loot. :)

Loot? I've never seen them drop it before. I'll have to check it out again. :)

Nihilus hardly would have been able to take on the whole Katarr conclave of hundreds of Jedi

A point if I may, stoffe... there were probably a few dozen of them at best. It's stated several times that there were barely a hundred Jedi when the war ended, and the conlave took place a few years after Traya started her shadow war. :)

stoffe
09-05-2006, 02:58 PM
Unfortunately, DS characters don't get to fight any Sith troops. Nihilus' ship and Malachor were full of Sith commandos, but not standard troopers.


More or less the same thing. Just a different name tag and a helmet with a smaller visor. You could just rename them "Sith Trooper" instead and you'd not have much time to reflect upon the small differences in their armor in the heat of combat. They fight in the same way as Sith Troopers, with blasters and grenades. :)


Loot? I've never seen them drop it before. I'll have to check it out again. :)


It doesn't happen often, but I've had a few of them drop things on occasion. It's just an extra bonus though in addition to the 1000+ extra XP you gain from beating them on the ship compared to what you'd have gotten if you shot them with the turret instead before they could come aboard. :)



A point if I may, stoffe... there were probably a few dozen of them at best. It's stated several times that there were barely a hundred Jedi when the war ended, and the conlave took place a few years after Traya started her shadow war. :)

Perhaps, but Nihilus still wouldn't have stood a chance if he confronted them all in "conventional" sith vs. jedi fighting. With or without the intervention of Katarr's military in addition to the Jedi.

Just look at how easily you could defeat him in conventional combat. Granted he was weakened by attempting to drain the Exile, but you still could beat him rather easily once his NihilusDrain™ was taken out of the equation, with just one other Sith and a Mandalorian to aid you.

The NihilusDrain™ power was what made him unbeatable, but once nullified he was "just a man", as Visas says. And at least some Council-grade Jedi Masters were present at Katarr (Vandar, Dorak & co). But that's moot since the Jedi aren't immune to the drain, so he could just feed on them instead. :)

(Top of the line Sith aren't necessarily always a lot stronger than top of the line jedi, as exemplified by Mace Windu being a second away from having killed Darth Sidious had Anakin not intervened.)

Emperor Devon
09-05-2006, 03:11 PM
More or less the same thing. Just a different name tag and a helmet with a smaller visor. You could just rename them "Sith Trooper" instead and you'd not have much time to reflect upon the small differences in their armor in the heat of combat. They fight in the same way as Sith Troopers, with blasters and grenades. :)

That's what I've done to nearly all the Sith commandos. Fighting nothing but elite enemies gets tiresome. This brings back memories of fighting a dozen liches in a regular old tomb in NWN.

Perhaps, but Nihilus still wouldn't have stood a chance if he confronted them all in "conventional" sith vs. jedi fighting. With or without the intervention of Katarr's military in addition to the Jedi.

Most likely. There were a few members of the Council, and the others were hardy enough to survive Revan and Traya's purges. Till then, that is.

Just look at how easily you could defeat him in conventional combat.

Big letdown. I thought the lesson had been larned after people said Malak was too easy. But, that is what modding is for. Nihilus is much funner with a constitution at 70 and several hundred more hit points. :)

Granted he was weakened by attempting to drain the Exile, but you still could beat him rather easily once his NihilusDrain™ was taken out of the equation. The NihilusDrain™ power was what made him unbeatable, but once nullified he was "just a man", as Visas says.

It's possible he might have been even stronger than just a man, even without NihilusDrain™. When the Exile kills the Masters, she becomes more powerful by feeding off of them. I'm inclined that Nihilus did the same with the other Jedi, but it was moot against the Exile.

(Top of the line Sith aren't necessarily always a lot stronger than top of the line jedi, as exemplified by Mace Windu being a second away from having killed Darth Sidious had Anakin not intervened.)

Sidious, I think, let that happen on purpose. It only seems logical. Anakin arrives the second he's going to die, and yet Sidious is capable of holding his own against Yoda, who was more powerful than Mace, hence how he was the Grand Master. :)

stoffe
09-05-2006, 03:46 PM
That's what I've done to nearly all the Sith commandos. Fighting nothing but elite enemies gets tiresome. This brings back memories of fighting a dozen liches in a regular old tomb in NWN.


I can agree to that, some enemies shouldn't be clustered up in nameless hordes. Liches are supposed to be undead wizards after all, and wizards of that kind tend not to be that communal. :) Though I'd argue that Sith Commandos aren't quite equal to liches. They're just elite troops, top of the line grunts, slightly more exclusive cannon fodder. :)


Big letdown. I thought the lesson had been larned after people said Malak was too easy. But, that is what modding is for. Nihilus is much funner with a constitution at 70 and several hundred more hit points. :)


They've probably learned the lesson that game balancing is a hopeless undertaking since players vary widely in skill, and you cannot easily please everyone. I thought the Malak battle was difficult in KotOR1, and I always play on "Normal" difficulty level. :)

Very tough battles are, in particular during the first playthrough, rather frustrating and annoying rather than fun, since they prevent you from moving on with the story you are eager to explore. And the whole boss concept, having been used for decades, is starting to get a little old. Challenge can be provided through more believable means than some big bad enemy who for no reason appears to be a demigod. But that's another discussion. :)



It's possible he might have been even stronger than just a man, even without NihilusDrain™. When the Exile kills the Masters, she becomes more powerful by feeding off of them. I'm inclined that Nihilus did the same with the other Jedi, but it was moot against the Exile.


Darth Nihilus is very powerful, no doubt about that. But so is the Exile when you manage to reach DN to do combat. And so would a pack of cornered council-grade Jedi Masters be, I'd wager. But the difference between being very powerful and being essentially unbeatable lied entirely with the NihilusDrain™ power in his case. (Like it lied with his darkside-powered immortality for Darth Sion. Take that away too and he also was "just a man", a very powerful man, no doubt, but one who could be killed like anyone else, and not an unstoppable killing machine that could only be slowed down, never beaten.)



Sidious, I think, let that happen on purpose. It only seems logical. Anakin arrives the second he's going to die, and yet Sidious is capable of holding his own against Yoda, who was more powerful than Mace, hence how he was the Grand Master. :)

I'd have to disagree on that, based on what I see in the movie. Windu had Sidious disarmed and on the floor. I got the impression that Sidious was merely fighting a delaying fight against Windu up until then, holding off the inevitable until Anakin had time to arrive so his plan could be set in motion and victory be achieved. :)

Is it stated anywhere that Yoda is more powerful than MWindu in lightsaber combat? I got the impression that Yoda was the "thinker" and Windu was the "doer" on the council (Consular vs. Weapon Master, using Kotor terms).

And I somehow doubt Jedi appoint their leaders based on combat proficiency alone. There are other factors that weigh in to make someone a good council member and rolemodel, like knowledge of the force, wisdom, clairvoyance, life experience within the order and so on. The "Dark Lord of the Sith" may need to be the most powerful in battle of that pack, but somehow it doesn't seem quite fitting that the same would apply to the Lord/Grandmaster of the Jedi order, seing their ideological differences.

(Besides, it looked like Sidious was about to lose against Yoda as well before the force lightning imploded and hurled Yoda to the bottom floor of the senate hall. You don't need to be physically stronger than your enemy to win if you can outsmart them or have the strength of numbers on your side, after all. :))

Emperor Devon
09-05-2006, 04:13 PM
Though I'd argue that Sith Commandos aren't quite equal to liches. They're just elite troops, top of the line grunts, slightly more exclusive cannon fodder. :)

Top of the line grunts, yes, but uncommon ones. In any military the commandos make up a much smaller and less expendable force than regular soldiers. Nihilus wasn't very bright about sending them onto Citadel Station at the front lines. But Nihilus seemed to look at the universe in a very Olympian way, and I don't think he'd care if his best troops died or not.

Very tough battles are, in particular during the first playthrough, rather frustrating and annoying rather than fun, since they prevent you from moving on with the story you are eager to explore.

In some ways, but I've always liked it when you have try especially hard at some points. The game shouldn't be without challenges, but as you said, that's another discussion.

But the difference between being very powerful and being essentially unbeatable lied entirely with the NihilusDrain™ power in his case. (Like it lied with his darkside-powered immortality for Darth Sion. Take that away too and he also was "just a man", a very powerful man, no doubt, but one who could be killed like anyone else, and not an unstoppable killing machine that could only be slowed down, never beaten.)

Sion's immortality is actually not as effective as I'd thought. In the cut content where he fights Nihilus, he loses. But there is no denyong he can't be killed by regular means.

Is it stated anywhere that Yoda is more powerful than MWindu in lightsaber combat? I got the impression that Yoda was the "thinker" and Windu was the "doer" on the council (Consular vs. Weapon Master, using Kotor terms).

Not that I'm aware of, and I doubt it, as Mace finished developing Form VII. But as was demonstrated by Nihilus, the Force can be more than a match for any lightsaber.

There are other factors that weigh in to make someone a good council member and rolemodel, like knowledge of the force, wisdom, clairvoyance, life experience within the order and so on.

Not entirely true. The Force is a large reason for that, as it enhances those traits, and also grants the user skill in combat. It's all but impossible for someone who's very strong in the Force to be an unskilled uelist. Hence how Dooku, despite being 80 years old, could stand up against a fit young man in duel, despite losing.

The "Dark Lord of the Sith" may need to be the most powerful in battle of that pack, but somehow it doesn't seem quite fitting that the same would apply to the Lord/Grandmaster of the Jedi order, seing their ideological differences.

The Jedi do judge their leaders by wisdom and intellect over brawn, but those traits are enhanced by the Force.

(Besides, it looked like Sidious was about to lose against Yoda as well before the force lightning imploded and hurled Yoda to the bottom floor of the senate hall.

If that were so, Yoda would have come back to assassinate Sidious later. :)

Whoa, we're getting way off-topic.

stoffe
09-05-2006, 04:42 PM
Top of the line grunts, yes, but uncommon ones. In any military the commandos make up a much smaller and less expendable force than regular soldiers. Nihilus wasn't very bright about sending them onto Citadel Station at the front lines. But Nihilus seemed to look at the universe in a very Olympian way, and I don't think he'd care if his best troops died or not.


The rest of the troops were probably killed in the Republic mop-up operations (or ensuing sith in-fighting when Revan vanishes if you go the dark path, I suppose) following the StarForge incident. Thus only the elite troops that weren't sacrificed before remained. :)

It can also be theorized that all of Sion's and Nihilus' forces are made up of the Sith garrison that Darth Revan stationed on Malachor to keep the Trayus Academy there safe. And given the top-secret nature of that facility (not even Malak knew about it, after all) she probably stationed only elite troops to guard it, not common grunts.


In some ways, but I've always liked it when you have try especially hard at some points. The game shouldn't be without challenges


The line between challenge and frustration can be thin, though. I prefer games that can be beaten without dying even once if you play carefully and cautiously, remain aware of your surroundings and utilize the means at your disposal. Games where you more or less have to die in order to gain OOC knowledge to figure out how an encounter "works" beforehand to be able to beat it breaks the immersion for me. It just yells to your face that the adventure your characters are on is really impossible, since they'd been dead many times over if it wasn't for the mighty SaveGame feature. :)


Sion's immortality is actually not as effective as I'd thought. In the cut content where he fights Nihilus, he loses. But there is no denyong he can't be killed by regular means.


But that isn't part of the actual game experience, so it doesn't happen. It might have, during some point during game development, but it doesn't happen in K2:The Sith Lords. :p



Not entirely true. The Force is a large reason for that, as it enhances those traits, and also grants the user skill in combat.


I'd like to think there is lots of hard training and finely honed skills involved as well; that jedi aren't just puppets dangling on the lines of the Force where nothing they do themselves really matters. I doubt anyone born force sensitive instinctively knows how to handle a lightsaber in the heat of battle. There's the psychology bit as well, not everyone reacts the same when faced with mortal danger, force powered or not. :)

There is also the matter of focus, "Jack of all trades, master of all" wouldn't be feasible for human Jedi since there is only so much time during a lifetime. Some would focus on battle, some would focus on other aspects of the force. The Jedi are a paramilitary order, but combat isn't their sole and primary function. Perhaps someone like Yoda have had time to squeeze in more during his long lifetime than most other Jedi, and have been able to specialize in several areas.

But learning knowledge, skills and abilities is one thing, keeping from forgetting them again is another. You'd need to keep up to date on everything you've learned to stay sharp, and there are only so many hours per day even if you live forever. :)



It's all but impossible for someone who's very strong in the Force to be an unskilled uelist. Hence how Dooku, despite being 80 years old, could stand up against a fit young man in duel, despite losing.


While could be attributed as much to the fact that he has some 70+ years or so of training and experience under his belt, as much as his raw strength in the force. You do pick up a thing or two during a long life, and you don't need the force to be a master of something you've been doing all your life at old age.

You need look no further than martial arts in the real world, where some of the elderly masters/sensei can defeat well-trained young men at their physical peak seemingly without effort in hand to hand combat; where their finely honed technique, taken to perfection over the years, more than makes up for any physical weakness and lack of raw strength their age may cause. :)

Emperor Devon
09-05-2006, 05:22 PM
The rest of the troops were probably killed in the Republic mop-up operations (or ensuing sith in-fighting when Revan vanishes if you go the dark path, I suppose) following the StarForge incident. Thus only the elite troops that weren't sacrificed before remained. :)

That's possible, although I have to disagree. When nations fight each other, they don't completely wipe out each other's armies. There usually are troops who survive; they've just not in much of position to fight a war. :)

It can also be theorized that all of Sion's and Nihilus' forces are made up of the Sith garrison that Darth Revan stationed on Malachor to keep the Trayus Academy there safe. And given the top-secret nature of that facility (not even Malak knew about it, after all) she probably stationed only elite troops to guard it, not common grunts.

I imagine he did, though I don't think that's how Nihilus got all his forces. My theory is that after the Sith Civil War, there were many warlords with different amounts of troops who all were (or pretended to be) loyal to the three main Sith Lords. While Nihilus probably got the core of his forces from Malachor, I think he demmanded more troops for himself. That seems like what he would do. :)

It just yells to your face that the adventure your characters are on is really impossible, since they'd been dead many times over if it wasn't for the mighty SaveGame feature. :)

I never said it should be impossible, but difficult. There should be at least some realistic emphasis on how the adventures your character is going on are not easy ones. :)

But that isn't part of the actual game experience, so it doesn't happen. It might have, during some point during game development, but it doesn't happen in K2:The Sith Lords. :p

So you don't even consider what the M4-78 restoration team and I are doing to be official or part of the game? How offensive! :p

I'd like to think there is lots of hard training and finely honed skills involved as well; that jedi aren't just puppets dangling on the lines of the Force where nothing they do themselves really matters.

They don't, but the Force does play a role in their skills. As Kreia tells you throughout the game, Jedi rely greatly on the Force, and can enhance their skills with it. :)

While could be attributed as much to the fact that he has some 70+ years or so of training and experience under his belt, as much as his raw strength in the force. You do pick up a thing or two during a long life, and you don't need the force to be a master of something you've been doing all your life at old age.

That is true, though the Force hones all abilities. I doubt Dooku could've lasted as long as he had without it, even though he lost to Anakin. It does grant more than the ability to spew flashy energy from your hand, after all. Look at how the Exile, a woman in her early thirties, was able to defeat a most likely younger man in melee combat. The Force grants many powers. :)

You need look no further than martial arts in the real world, where some of the elderly masters/sensei can defeat well-trained young men at their physical peak seemingly without effort in hand to hand combat; :)

Experience does help, though age catches up on everyone and Anakin proved that it isn't everything when it comes to the Force.

RedHawke
09-06-2006, 12:32 AM
Just to interject something on the Mace or Yoda being the best with a saber...

It is stated in EP II when Obi Wan is talking to Anakin about his obsession with speeders (During the coruscant Zam Wiesel chase) that Yoda was the one to beat in lightsaber skills, even over Windu. ;)

Just note, I haven't read all of your posts so you might have discussed this already. :D

kookaburra
09-06-2006, 03:13 AM
Malak is decent. But he was a little bit of a wuss to not face his Master in a true Dark Lord dual.

stoffe
09-06-2006, 06:16 AM
Malak is decent. But he was a little bit of a wuss to not face his Master in a true Dark Lord dual.

Considering how he ended up when he finally did fight Revan in a 1 on 1 duel, it might have been a sign of intelligence rather than "wussiness" to put aside his pride and attack from a safe distance. :)

(And if you interpret the tale Palpatine told Anakin at the theatre in Ep 3 as something that actually happened, then Darth Sidious murdered his master in his sleep as well. So the Sith apparantly have no rules that you must beat your master in a straight fight when trying to topple them. :))

SithAnnihilator
09-06-2006, 06:29 AM
Nihilus being described as ridiculously powerful (killing a planet with the Force - that's like 100+ (?) times the power of any jedi ever seen in any movie)and then appearing ridiculously weak in-game

Don't forget that it was explained that Nihilous didnt control that power. It controlled him. It had 'its own will' and maybe it 'felt' (can I call it that?) a greater purpose would be served by letting the exile survive. Don't forget the founding concept surrounding the star wars universe. Every action, no matter how small, echoes through the force, and some acts, if properly executed, can create ripples in the future, potentially accomplishing what might seem unlikely if looked at from a 'here and now' point of view.

As far as Sion, he sadly reminds me of a young Anakin Skywalker. Instantly turning to his "Master's" will without resistance. And well....Kreia was a joke. Some of the weaker opponents in K1 had a better backstory than she did.

EDIT: I know I am way late on this but I thought the extra background received from Kreia through gaining influence with her was a fairly decent build-up to the confrontation with Nihilous. And I must have somehow missed the part where the exiles immunity to NihilousDrain™ was explained. Time to play through again :xp:

RobQel-Droma
09-07-2006, 12:34 AM
That's why I gave them lightsabers. They look much better with those. It would be a better weapon for them to use anyhow, because it takes one hit to kill someone, unlike a stadd that you have to use quite a bit of force with. Other than how it makes a sound, a lightsaber would be a much more ideal weapon for an assassin than a large stick.

I found it interesting that the only assassin that wields a lightsaber was in the Trayus Academy, called "Elite Sith Assassin" (or something), and wielding dual lightsabers; in fact, two lightsabers that had an uncommon combo of colors, (red and viridian). Now what they should have done is to scatter that one guy around the game, leading the other assassins in that area, and then replace the regular assassin's sticks with something a bit more flashier. Like stoffe -mkb- said, perhaps a Force Pike or something.

Unfortunately, DS characters don't get to fight any Sith troops. Nihilus' ship and Malachor were full of Sith commandos, but not standard troopers. It's like Luke fighting Royal Guardsmen and no stormtroopers. Thankfully, there are a few places in the game Sith troops can be implemented into while still fitting with the plot.

Hm... Are you sure they were all Sith commandos? I'm pretty sure, especially in Nadd's tomb, that quite a few were the regular red or silver Sith troops, and probably elsewhere too.

Very tough battles are, in particular during the first playthrough, rather frustrating and annoying rather than fun, since they prevent you from moving on with the story you are eager to explore. And the whole boss concept, having been used for decades, is starting to get a little old. Challenge can be provided through more believable means than some big bad enemy who for no reason appears to be a demigod. But that's another discussion.

I agree, although I do like for a game to be challenging when I first pick it up. The only problem with TSL was that it was too unbalanced. Sometimes I thought that the stats on the minor "Sith Lord" in Nadd's tomb had gotten switched with one of the major Sith Lords in the game. Probably the game difficulties just need to be accordingly adjusted for each type of player.

Not entirely true. The Force is a large reason for that, as it enhances those traits, and also grants the user skill in combat. It's all but impossible for someone who's very strong in the Force to be an unskilled uelist. Hence how Dooku, despite being 80 years old, could stand up against a fit young man in duel, despite losing.

Yeah, but I got the impression that that was more of a side effect, or individual focus. The force can grant you great combat skills, especially if you are powerful in the Force, but not like a person who has trained for years in saber combat and has that combined with natural force ability. I don't think that the focus is on combat, that is just one aspect of the bigger picture.

The Jedi do judge their leaders by wisdom and intellect over brawn, but those traits are enhanced by the Force.

True, but those traits have to be good in order for the enhancement to make much of a difference. :) The force doesn't grant omnipotence - Yoda says that the Force only partially controls your actions, so I would think that it more guides or aids you.

Top of the line grunts, yes, but uncommon ones. In any military the commandos make up a much smaller and less expendable force than regular soldiers. Nihilus wasn't very bright about sending them onto Citadel Station at the front lines. But Nihilus seemed to look at the universe in a very Olympian way, and I don't think he'd care if his best troops died or not.

Again, true, but I also would wonder if they would have to be top-of-the-line to survive until then. The Sith aren't as widespread then, of course, so it might make sense in a way to have many be the elite - and of course, the Sith isn't an empire anymore, and the way they operate is different. I would imagine that the kind of "grunt" would change also, and not have the same throw-away cannon fodder designation.

If that were so, Yoda would have come back to assassinate Sidious later. :)

However, by that time, Sidious's empire would be a bit more stable, and he would have good ol' Vader back with him again, along with thousands of stormtroopers. During the time of the Sidious vs. Yoda fight, he was probably at his weakest strategic point. Man, how did we get talking about this? :)

It just yells to your face that the adventure your characters are on is really impossible, since they'd been dead many times over if it wasn't for the mighty SaveGame feature. :)

Quoted for emphasis. :xp:

That is true, though the Force hones all abilities. I doubt Dooku could've lasted as long as he had without it, even though he lost to Anakin. It does grant more than the ability to spew flashy energy from your hand, after all. Look at how the Exile, a woman in her early thirties, was able to defeat a most likely younger man in melee combat. The Force grants many powers. :)

As does lightsaber combat training by Kreia, and much practicing against run-of-the-mill Sith beforehand. ;)

And I must have somehow missed the part where the exiles immunity to NihilousDrain™ was explained. Time to play through again :xp:

It is shown during the fight with Nihilus and the Exile, I believe.

(And if you interpret the tale Palpatine told Anakin at the theatre in Ep 3 as something that actually happened, then Darth Sidious murdered his master in his sleep as well. So the Sith apparantly have no rules that you must beat your master in a straight fight when trying to topple them. :) )

Yuthura and Uthar double-double-cross, with the poison in the bed or the bath? :) I think the head-on confrontation is still preferred, and would gain prestige, but yeah, several weaker Sith's greed for power would cause them to try other methods, just like Malak.

Emperor Devon
09-07-2006, 02:13 AM
Hm... Are you sure they were all Sith commandos? I'm pretty sure, especially in Nadd's tomb, that quite a few were the regular red or silver Sith troops, and probably elsewhere too.

No, I was just talking about the areas stoffe mentioned.

but not like a person who has trained for years in saber combat and has that combined with natural force ability.

Yoda was nearly nine hundred when he fought Sidious. I wonder how many inutes he'd put into lightsaber sparring?

True, but those traits have to be good in order for the enhancement to make much of a difference. :) The force doesn't grant omnipotence - Yoda says that the Force only partially controls your actions, so I would think that it more guides or aids you.

Quite possible, though I've yet to see a Jedi Master who didn't have a significantly above average intellect and sense of wisdom. I think the Force simply enhances all current senses.

The Sith aren't as widespread then, of course, so it might make sense in a way to have many be the elite - and of course, the Sith isn't an empire anymore, and the way they operate is different.

I'm not sure. By the time Daala began her second campaign against the New Republic, she had an immense amount of troops that were cloistered in the Deep Core, despite the civil wars and defeats. I'm inclined the Sith did the same thing, but were cloistered in farthest reaches of the Outer Rim instead. But if the commandos were as common as normal grunts, they must've had a very small army. :) But Nihilus was stupid about the them. Commandos are best sent on sabotage or assassination missions, not thrown into the field of battle where they're little better off than fodder.

However, by that time, Sidious's empire would be a bit more stable, and he would have good ol' Vader back with him again, along with thousands of stormtroopers. During the time of the Sidious vs. Yoda fight, he was probably at his weakest strategic point. Man, how did we get talking about this? :)

Who knows? But I don't think that matters. Sidious had enough troops to overwhelm Yoda either way. He was able to get into the Senate building just fine, so I don't think common stormtroopers could've stopped him. They had enough firepower to overhwhelm Yoda then, but didn't. :)

As does lightsaber combat training by Kreia, and much practicing against run-of-the-mill Sith beforehand. ;)

I was just saying what strengths the Force grants. I don't think she could've dueled Sith Lords of fought her way through platoons of troopers if she didn't have it. :)

stoffe
09-07-2006, 07:05 AM
Yoda was nearly nine hundred when he fought Sidious. I wonder how many inutes he'd put into lightsaber sparring?


Probably several human lifetimes of practice taken together, in addition to studying techniques, fighting styles tactics and so on. If you are a great warrior without the force, you become a supreme warrior with it. If you are a mediocre warrior without the force you will at best become a decent warrior with it. Mundane training and studies are not meaningless for Jedi (or Sith for that matter) just because they can use the force to boost their abilities.



Quite possible, though I've yet to see a Jedi Master who didn't have a significantly above average intellect and sense of wisdom. I think the Force simply enhances all current senses.


That could be because you wont become a Jedi Master to begin with if you don't fulfill the "prerequisites", so to speak. :) Just like you won't find any rocket scientists who are barely sentient drooling idiots, you won't find any Jedi Master's who aren't strong in the force, physically able and possessing a keen intellect, since they would never have reached the position if they didn't. Not everyone who becomes a member of the Jedi Order eventually ends up as a Master on the council after all. Only the cream of the crop get that far. Many who join the order won't even become Knights, but they still serve a purpose. :)



But Nihilus was stupid about the them. Commandos are best sent on sabotage or assassination missions, not thrown into the field of battle where they're little better off than fodder.


I don't think Darth Nihilus concerned himself with such things at all any more, he doesn't seem the type. Too insignificant for his widened awareness. He probably lets his generals or commanders deal with the specifics of how the military operations he desires done are carried out.

And really, this is a guy who slowly devours his own bridge crew. I don't think he cares in the slightest what happens to his commandos. :)



I was just saying what strengths the Force grants. I don't think she could've dueled Sith Lords of fought her way through platoons of troopers if she didn't have it. :)

Since said Sith Lords also use the force all those fights would have been an equal match if mundane skills and experience didn't play a significant part of it. :) I'm just saying the force isn't the only thing that's important in determining someone's combat skill. One should not underestimate the importance of experience, skill and technique compared to raw physical brawn or the Force. They all play an important role in making a complete warrior. The one that gets the balance between them right is the one who comes out victorious. Especially important when your opponent has the same potential means at their disposal as you do.

It's not like the Exile was new to fighting at the beginning of the game anyway. She was a war veteran who fought throughout the Mandalorian Wars, from when Revan's rogue jedi band decided to join all the way up to the final battle. Since she was still alive I'd imagine she had learned a lot about fighting during the war, in addition to the Jedi training received before then. Unlike many of her peers who fell during the war. Not too bad for someone described as "average at best" in their force ability. :)

SithAnnihilator
09-10-2006, 03:25 AM
It is shown during the fight with Nihilus and the Exile, I believe.

Ok I caught it this time. I guess I was just so excited with the final confrontation with Nihilous that I missed it. And as for Malak, I didn't like the style they used for him. I mean yea he was pretty strong, but even on the xbox, I found more difficulty against the star forge's dark jedi trio than I did Malak himself. He seemed like a pushover to me, but then, my character was maxed out so that might be why. Thats not to say I didn't like the original KotOR but I just find TSL more immense and hooking.

But I have the perfect phrase right here:
To each their own :)

Emperor Devon
09-10-2006, 03:48 AM
That could be because you wont become a Jedi Master to begin with if you don't fulfill the "prerequisites", so to speak. :)

Hmm, I can think of some Masters who didn't fit all the requirements for that rank very well. But my original point was that the Force enhances those traits. :)

And really, this is a guy who slowly devours his own bridge crew. I don't think he cares in the slightest what happens to his commandos. :)

I agree. He had a very Olympian view of the galaxy.

Since said Sith Lords also use the force all those fights would have been an equal match if mundane skills and experience didn't play a significant part of it. :) {snip}

I'd say the Force is a bit more poweful than that. It's much more complex than shooting fireballs or ice shards at people. Non-Force sensitive individuals who are capable of defeating an average Jedi/Sith are most uncommon. :)

playloud
09-11-2006, 01:31 AM
Just to interject something on the Mace or Yoda being the best with a saber...

It is stated in EP II when Obi Wan is talking to Anakin about his obsession with speeders (During the coruscant Zam Wiesel chase) that Yoda was the one to beat in lightsaber skills, even over Windu. ;)
Windu is never mentioned, and the events of RoTS would indicate that Windu was better than Yoda. Windu bested Sidious.

Also, when Anakin was describing Obi-Wan in AoTC, he said he was as wise as Yoda, and as powerful as Windu, which sounded to me like Windu had more power than Yoda (but was not as wise).

RedHawke
09-11-2006, 01:45 AM
and the events of RoTS would indicate that Windu was better than Yoda. Windu bested Sidious.
Sidious was putting on an act for Aniken in the Windu fight (Sidious knew Aniken was coming, it was all planned)... Windu could arguably be called an equal for Sidious with a saber.

Yoda bested Sidious with a saber, in an all-out fight... Yoda was bested by Sidious' Force Powers not a saber, this is the main reason Sisious switched to using Force Powers on Yoda as he could not beat him with his saber.

Also, when Anakin was describing Obi-Wan in AoTC, he said he was as wise as Yoda, and as powerful as Windu, which sounded to me like Windu had more power than Yoda (but was not as wise).
That he likely was, Obi-Wan was no pushover... but his saber skills were no match for Yoda's.

Hence the "powerful as Windu" statement, Windu was one of the Jedi's best with a saber as Obi-Wan was, but the absolute best in saber fighting was Yoda, he had hundreds of years to become so.

playloud
09-11-2006, 02:44 AM
Sidious was putting on an act for Aniken in the Windu fight (Sidious knew Aniken was coming, it was all planned)...

This is in dispute. I personally believe that it was no act. The best explanation that I have read can be found here. (http://www.stardestroyer.net/ROTS/Revelations-1.html)

Perhaps Windu's skill with a lightsaber was not the equal of Yoda's, however his ability to combat Sidious effectively was apparent. Check the link for the explanation of that statement.

RedHawke
09-11-2006, 03:48 AM
This is in dispute.
Not from my end it isn't. ;)

I personally believe that it was no act. The best explanation that I have read can be found here. (http://www.stardestroyer.net/ROTS/Revelations-1.html)

Perhaps Windu's skill with a lightsaber was not the equal of Yoda's, however his ability to combat Sidious effectively was apparent. Check the link for the explanation of that statement.
While it is well thought out the person who wrote all that forgot that Sidious greatest power was his forsight, he knew what was going to happen, Luke even commented on this in RotJ. A fact the writer never even mentions in his writings about Sidious.

So I have to disagree with that persons conclusions on this fight. I do agree that Mace Windu was a pivotal character but not what that person makes him out to be.

playloud
09-11-2006, 04:06 AM
Not from my end it isn't. ;)


While it is well thought out the person who wrote all that forgot that Sidious greatest power was his forsight, he knew what was going to happen, Luke even commented on this in RotJ. A fact the writer never even mentions in his writings about Sidious.
Unfortunately, it cannot be proven either way. Some believe that Windu won the fight, and Anakin saved Sidious, while others believe that Sidious was never in any real danger. However, I point to the official Star Wars website, and the article regarding Darth Sidious (http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/darthsidious/)


In the article, it states...

With Anakin Skywalker's help, Sidious was able to defeat Mace, though he was severely scarred by the reflected power of his dark side lightning. To conceal his disfigured visage, Sidious returned to his simple Sith robes.

As it says with Skywalker's help, and that he was severely scarred by the reflected power of his dark side lightning, it sounds to me like the official site agrees with the author of the article I linked previously. The article on the official site makes no mention of an act by Sidious in this scene.

stoffe
09-11-2006, 06:53 AM
While it is well thought out the person who wrote all that forgot that Sidious greatest power was his forsight, he knew what was going to happen, Luke even commented on this in RotJ. A fact the writer never even mentions in his writings about Sidious.

And still he didn't foresee that his own loyal pet would turn on him and throw him to his death, that his "best legions" on Endor's forrest moon would get whiped out by the natives, and that the death star would be destroyed shortly along with a significant portion of its fleet. None of them small and insignificant events unworthy of his notice. Apparently Sidious' foresight has its limits, even though he himself seems unwilling to accept that fact.

As for the scene you refer to, Luke also says something like "Your overconfidence is your weakness", which may as well be true. Sidious may well have been convinced that he could defeat MWindu, but when it actually came down to the fight it may have turned out differently with Windu getting the upper hand. Few well laid plans survive contact with the enemy. :)

Personally I prefer the variant where Sidious actually was beaten, as it makes Anakin's fall all the more pivotal and important. It doesn't only turn him into a powerful puppet of the Empire, but a major reason why the Empire came into existence at all. Otherwise Anakin wasn't really all that important. Otherwise the Empire would have arised with or without him. Palpatine's Clone Troopers seemed quite capable of sneak attacking the entire Jedi Order to death even without Anakin's aid, after all. They might have taken some more casualties when raiding the Jedi Temple, but it would have been done regardless.

While Sidious may be a very powerful individual, I doubt he's powerful enough that he can afford to toy with one of the strongest weapon masters of the Order who's trying to beat him. The top of the line Sith shouldn't be that much more powerful than the top of the line Jedi, though their respective strengths may lie in different aspects of the force and combat, which may affect the outcome of a confrontation depending on the circumstances.

That's not saying that Sidious didn't use the situation of being beaten to his advantage when Anakin showed up, even if that might not be how he initially planned for things to go. :)

RedHawke
09-11-2006, 07:41 AM
And still he didn't foresee that his own loyal pet would turn on him and throw him to his death, that his "best legions" on Endor's forrest moon would get whiped out by the natives, and that the death star would be destroyed shortly along with a significant portion of its fleet. None of them small and insignificant events unworthy of his notice. Apparently Sidious' foresight has its limits, even though he himself seems unwilling to accept that fact.
Yes, Sidious couldn't possibly 'see' Vaders actions or what would happen, hence the force failed Sidious at that time, as Vader's destiny was at hand.

The force has a will of its own, this is the reason Sidious was so confident, he was shown something by his 'foresight' that didn't actually come to pass (Luke joining him as his new apprentice or Luke's defeat at either Vaders hands or his own), instead Vader/Aniken made a choice out of love for his son, one to the contrary to what Sidious thought possible. Just as Luke stated to him.

That single moment was what Star Wars was about. ;)

playloud
09-11-2006, 04:17 PM
Per my post above, the evidence suggests that Windu defeating Sidious was legit. Unfortunately, we don't know exactly how much Sidious knew, but it appears Windu was more than he could handle without the help of Anakin.

goldberry
09-11-2006, 04:55 PM
I have always seen that Sidious had manipulated everything, Anakin's birth, Most of what caused Anakin to become a Jedi, and then his fall to the dark side. He had planned it years in advance, and knew how the masters would react. I agree with RH that while Windu and Sidious *may* have been a fair match, Sidious let him take him down to prove a point.

Emperor Devon
09-11-2006, 07:11 PM
And still he didn't foresee that his own loyal pet would turn on him and throw him to his death, that his "best legions" on Endor's forrest moon would get whiped out by the natives, and that the death star would be destroyed shortly along with a significant portion of its fleet. None of them small and insignificant events unworthy of his notice. Apparently Sidious' foresight has its limits, even though he himself seems unwilling to accept that fact.

Or so we all thought until Dark Empire! :xp:

RobQel-Droma
09-11-2006, 10:39 PM
Quite possible, though I've yet to see a Jedi Master who didn't have a significantly above average intellect and sense of wisdom. I think the Force simply enhances all current senses.

That is what I think, also - we might actually be on the same page from what you are saying. I might have misunderstood what view you took.

Who knows? But I don't think that matters. Sidious had enough troops to overwhelm Yoda either way. He was able to get into the Senate building just fine, so I don't think common stormtroopers could've stopped him. They had enough firepower to overhwhelm Yoda then, but didn't. :)

That's true. I just was thinking about where those troops would have been, as Sidious would have undoubtedly been having to crush any infant rebellions that might have destabilized his also infant empire. He didn't dare to make a move before he had all that power, so he probably was trying to make sure no Jedi were left before trying to go ahead with his rule.

I'd say the Force is a bit more poweful than that. It's much more complex than shooting fireballs or ice shards at people. Non-Force sensitive individuals who are capable of defeating an average Jedi/Sith are most uncommon. :)

Having the force sets you apart from those who don't, of course. And while there are those who simply have the force much more/less than others, many would usually have "average" force sensitivity, so the kind of personal training, experience, practice, etc. It makes you much more powerful, but when you're fighting another force-sensitive with roughly the same amount of power it would nullify that advantage (in a broad sense). :)

RedHawke
09-12-2006, 01:31 AM
Per my post above, the evidence suggests that Windu defeating Sidious was legit. Unfortunately, we don't know exactly how much Sidious knew, but it appears Windu was more than he could handle without the help of Anakin.
playloud,

Do I think Mace Windu is cool? Yes. (Sam Jackson is cool no matter what part he is playing... and having Purple Lightsabers become a Canon saber color because of him is really cool as well.)
Do I think he was pivotal? Positively, yes.
Do I think he could possibly best the Emperor? Absolutely not.

Having over a decade and a half to contemplate the strengths and powers 'The Emperor' wielded, then actually seeing it all be realised in EPII & EPIII, I will stick to my personal interpretations on this matter.

As the other interpretations like those you linked to are obvious Mace Windu 'fanboy' nonsense. It isn't the first for Star Wars lore either as another character in the OT was blown out of proportion as well... Boba Fett. So much so that GL added in his origins as part of the Clone Wars.

playloud
09-12-2006, 03:16 AM
playloud,
Do I think he could possibly best the Emperor? Absolutely not.
He DID best the Emperor. The only thing that saved Sidious was Anakin. Sidious did not have the power to defeat Windu. Windu was able to channel the lightning back at Sidious.

As the other interpretations like those you linked to are obvious Mace Windu 'fanboy' nonsense. The official site is fanboy nonsense? While you may still interpret the scene in a different way, both the novelization and the official Star Wars site would seem to disagree with you. Since every piece of official information sides with the interpretation that I have suggested, I would think that would make it the official interpretation.

Totenkopf
09-12-2006, 03:16 AM
Whether Mace was stronger than Sidious, or the reverse, one thing that was certain was that Anakin was in the Chancellor's pocket, even if he didn't realize it himself (he being Anakin). I thought perhaps DS went down a little too quickly for someone that was supposedly so powerful. I'd have to agree w/Redhawke that the whole encounter was probably to complete the last step of Anakin's seduction. That doesn't denigrate Mace, but even Yoda was bested by DS. Still, you still might have to wonder what would've happened had Anakin not gone all dark sidey and actually obeyed Windu. As was pointed out above, DS's main blindness was due to excessive arrogance. While he turned out to be right about AS, it could've gone the other way (except that that would've skunked the plot). Then, maybe the question of Mace's power could have been answered more clearly (except, again, for the fact that these are fictional characters and Lucas never intended for Mace to win in the first place and in the SW universe, Lucas=god).

RedHawke
09-12-2006, 04:50 AM
He DID best the Emperor. The only thing that saved Sidious was Anakin. Sidious did not have the power to defeat Windu. Windu was able to channel the lightning back at Sidious.
Only in your opinion... mine differs.

The official site is fanboy nonsense?
It sure can be... and it is in regards to this event.

Vaelastraz
09-12-2006, 08:32 AM
To me it seems like you need physical strength to hold your lightsaber firm while the Emperor does his best to force lightning you.

Yoda does not have this strength.
Mace Windu does.

But apart from that, I too believe that this Palpatine-Windu encouter was staged for Anakin. Windu did not best Palpatine.

Do you really think it was Randomness (or the fate -.-) that Anakin turned to the Darkside?

Imo Palpatine turned him all by himself. Anakin did have fears and emotions and blablabla every human has. Palpatine manipulated him carefully and effective and that fight vs Windu was just the last step.

Melly
09-12-2006, 12:06 PM
Um, while this is an interesting discussion, what the heck does it have to do with Malak and the three Sith Lords from K2? :indif:

goldberry
09-12-2006, 01:48 PM
That's what I was thinking, but if you read the entire conversation, it does originate from the morals (or lack of such) of the sith.

playloud
09-12-2006, 05:42 PM
Well RedHawke, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this one.

RedHawke
09-13-2006, 01:24 AM
Well RedHawke, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this one.
Done! :^:

As it is pointed out above this discussion is also off-topic... bad us! So back on topic folks! (Me too! :blush2: )

Allronix
10-09-2006, 07:06 PM
I've snarked before that KOTOR 1 was Episodes 4-6. Simplistic, but had a grand old space opera feel. That "seat of the pants," Flash Gordon rollar coaster that made the classic Star Wars such a unpretentious, guilty pleasure good time. What elevated it to a classic was the characters. You wanted to reach out and touch them. Many players, including myself, CAN'T pull Dark Side because they feel physically ill striking down Mission and Zaalbar, despite them just being pixels. You saw them grow up, you saw them transform from where you picked them up - good or ill.

KOTOR 2? A half-finished hackjob that shouldn't have made it out of beta, a project whose ambiton exceeded its capacity to tell the story. The plot's a mess that goes nowhere, makes nothing for sense, contradicts itself, and has holes the size of the first Death Star. Mind you, the concepts and the ambitious thought behind them really are appreciated. Influence - fabulous idea, but all it seems to do is dictate which of your party you can make saber swingers. The graying up of morality? Also appreciated, even if the game comes off as cynical and nihilistic overall.

Sure, the characters were intriguing, but in the creepy way a Tarantino flick pulls off. You may like watching them, but you'd move away if they were in the next flat over. Mostly, they left me cold and not wanting to spend any time with them. Worse, is that the whole idea of their dialogue tree is playing "unlock the Force," and ends abruptly once you do. The higher level caps, the overdone workbench (good idea, but if they'd spent less time on it...), and the rest seemed like this was a game for the munchkins. And the <i>sterotypical</i> munchkin doesn't like much plot...

Splitting the antagonism between the three weakened them all. With Malak, you were focused, you had your target, you had your treasure hunt, and you weren't directionless. With this one, you didn't have a focus. The treasure hunt? You find the Jedi and kill them. You find the Jedi and spare them. It does not matter. They have no part to play in the hunting down and destroying of the enemies you face. They don't lead you to Nihilus and Sion, save the Vash trap on Korriban. They'd be GREAT enemy concepts alone, but as a whole they're speed bumps.