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UDM
07-01-2006, 06:28 AM
I find that the mod is too complex for newcomers. Some get too confused, and then dismiss the mod as being lame or random or something. Then there are references to MB2, which imho has a less complex, more mainstream combat system. Problem is, there are so many things to learn, that people normally just assume they've seen it all in just a few mins. They get frustrated when they get killed, and the natural reaction is to point fingers at the mod. In other words, they haven't fully absorbed all of OJP's beauty, before dumping it into the recycling bin. Comparatively, Forcemod and MB2 are much easier to get into, and it's a 10-mins-before-you've-seen-it-all process (referring to lightsaber duels only)

I've got a few suggestions for helping people get into the mod easier:

1) A "Trainers" group can be set up, and recruiting people from all over the world. Trainers will be volunteers, helping newbies to play with the saber system. I suggest trainers, depending on where they are, set up a few slots a week for teaching newbies, instead of having to be PMed by a newcomer once every 3-4 hours. I can help out the Asian community, and similarly others can help out people around their area

2) A Training gamemode. This will help people familiarize with the new saber combat system. For example, you start off in a map, and it greets you with text on-screen. Then, you have to follow its instructions eg. "To perform an attack fake, you have to hold attack and alternate attack. You will know that you're successful when your saber changes direction." *you proceed to attack fake* "Good! Now let's move on to so-and-so section". Even cooler is if we could have voice acting in addition to the text subtitles. I wish I could help out on this, but my field is only limited to mapping here

What do you guys think?

JackBaldy
07-01-2006, 06:40 AM
This has to do with my performance in Meatgrinder doesn't it... Well, I apologize, I was out of line by exposing the newcomer to all that cheapness. I guess I got a little frustrated because the code server hasn't been up in a while and I was hoping for OJP to make a bit more progress. Hopefully the code server gets up soon lol

UDM
07-01-2006, 07:45 AM
I blame it more on the server than you because of the whole no dodge bull**** (I was really angry with the lack of dodge!). Though I don't know what exactly your frustrations are despite reading your posts on the forum, this isn't my first experience trying to help people get into the game. It's easy for them to dismiss the mod as anything but good, hence I decided to come up with some suggestions

I think we need to slow down a bit here anyway. It's Razor's project anyway, and because it's a 1-man team, we need to consider the time constraints on his part too. Of course, we all want 010, and hope for it to be as sweet as possible, but realistically speaking... ;)

razorace
07-01-2006, 01:23 PM
No dodge on the MeatGrinder? Say wha?

JRHockney*
07-01-2006, 02:17 PM
No dodge on the MeatGrinder? Say wha?

Yep, someone turned it off. It had to be a meat grinder admin. I just found the password, but the meatgrinder shutdown before I could change it back sadly. We were in the middle of a game and I was teaching somebody the system when that happened.

Beast Boy
07-01-2006, 02:27 PM
I'm a newcomer, I just got the mod a couple days ago, but I think the mod is one of the best I've ever tried out, and i'm keeping it in my base folder.

razorace
07-01-2006, 07:54 PM
Yep, someone turned it off. It had to be a meat grinder admin. I just found the password, but the meatgrinder shutdown before I could change it back sadly. We were in the middle of a game and I was teaching somebody the system when that happened.
Hmmm, ok. Well, at the moment it looks like some of the other admins are using it to play Basic. If they don't change it back to Enhanced after they're done, I'll have a chat with them.

Kurgan
07-01-2006, 09:40 PM
I hear ya... changing it back to Enhanced... as for the dodge thing, I don't mess with the Enhanced settings...

Lathain Valtiel
07-01-2006, 09:45 PM
Nor have I.

JRHockney*
07-02-2006, 12:35 AM
Hmmm, is vruki an admin? I know he likes to play enhance with dodge off. Maybe he was playing on it and forgot to turn it back on or something.

Vruki Salet
07-02-2006, 02:24 AM
No I'm not an admin there.

JRHockney*
07-02-2006, 05:23 AM
No I'm not an admin there.

Its a conspiracy!!!!!! LOL

I know, It was Coronal Mustard in the green room with the candel stick!!!....or ...at least the meatgrinder password. :p

UDM
07-02-2006, 05:48 AM
Argh could be an error or something. Let's not look too much into it

Back on topic, what do you guys think of the ideas I posted? We could set up the Trainers League right now. As for the map that I suggested, it can be done at a later time

razorace
07-02-2006, 01:42 PM
Of the two ideas, I think the training/newbie groups would probably be the best. A training map would be VERY complicated to put together. Plus, we'd have to have a finalized version of the saber system first. :)

But, I suspect that that's the way things are already. I know that Hocky and Jack are often helping people learn the system online. Secondly, if people don't read the documentation there's no reason to beleive that they would read the fact that a training group exists in the first place. :)

Beast Boy
07-02-2006, 02:50 PM
If you had a training server, wouldn't you need people to stay in the server to train people. I suppose you could monitor the server while doing other things and if a person joins, you can join. I dunno...

Trojo Spyps
07-02-2006, 03:03 PM
I agree with you one-hundred percent. And that's not just because I got the mod fifteen minutes ago and need serious help. :P Maybe you could dedicate a certain amount of time daily or weekly to helping people. And if OJP supports multiple duels, then every person could get on-on-one training.

JRHockney*
07-02-2006, 03:17 PM
All newcomers also need to be sure to read the saber manual that is in the enhanced folder. It saves us trainers alot of typing if you already know a few things. There have been many of us that learned almost completely by reading the manual and fighting Tabbots.

razorace
07-02-2006, 04:22 PM
Scheduling an advertised time and place is probably a good idea. If we get enough people who are willing to be trainers, I'll place a note about it on the website/readme.

Trojo Spyps
07-02-2006, 04:53 PM
I've read the manual, and understand all the aspects of saber combat. However, I would like to possibly start out with someone a little less ruthless than the bots. :P

UDM
07-02-2006, 08:42 PM
Yeah on that note, bots just want to tear your limbs apart, but trust me, when you fight with Jackbaldy, he shows no mercy. The wanker just ripped me apart in 3 seconds! LOL! And I can 0wn tabbots easily. Someday Jack...someday...

Razor, do you think it'd be a good idea to compile OJP in an installer? We could have the installer create shortcuts on desktop, which can be left to the player's discretion. Also, we could have the manual load up on its own upon finishing installing. This would tell players "hey dude, we have a fricking manual, and I'm loading it up for you once you're done installing the mod, so there's no excuse for you not to say 'I don't know there's a manual!'"

As for the training group, maybe you could sticky a thread, and interested trainers will post on it

Kurgan
07-02-2006, 10:17 PM
The only admins I know about on Razor's server (Meatgrinder OJP) are:

myself,
Lathain Valtiel,
ONLYONECANNOLI,
and now JRHockney

Anybody else, please introduce yourself, I'd like to be able to keep track of everyone, so we can work as a team. ;)

And installer might be good, so long as it takes into account Mac users out there, and that not everyone installs JA in the "default directory" (I never install games in the default folder unless forced). At first I hadn't heard about JRHockney, but no problem. If he's okay with Razor, he's okay with me. As long as the people we have are trustworthy, it's cool.

When I got too busy to help as much as I used to, we brought on Lath and Cannoli. Cannoli hasn't had as much time lately, so bringing in another person is cool with me. Put me on your ICQ list (3295836) or email me anytime. Don't be a stranger. :)

razorace
07-03-2006, 12:39 PM
An installer is a good idea, but I'm not aware of how we'd make it work. As for Macs, maybe it would be easier if Mac users just get a seperate package.

Doctor Shaft
07-04-2006, 12:38 AM
Yo.

I finally caved and installed JKA. I went around at first trying out all the mods I could.

Forcemod 3 was first. It was fun... but not something to play for a long time. I was more interested in all the classes it threw in.

Moviebattles has been my recent foray. I enjoyed that mod too, and I agree with some other posters about the system, etc. It's a good class-based game, I think, that could use some significant improvement in some areas, but I have to admit that it really does shine in terms of it's class-based gaming.

Then, on a whim, I kept hearing murmurings about OJP over at MBII. I thought to myself, "Why would they mention OJP?"

So I went and checked it out myself.

Good god, man. All this time, I suspected you were just making minor changes and handing people some code you made. I thought OJP was just a "I fixed some small things with base JKA, but otherwise, meh." I had no idea you had all of this... stuff.

I'm officially hooked. I tried to saber the bots and watched as they blocked all my stuff, and in frustration I was tooled. But it was a good tooling. Like "Hm, I can learn to get better at this." There was no wiffle bat syndrome.

And it was a systme that consisted of more than just "clash clash, block, clash, block, try to bypass the block, clash, smash, kick down, clash."

Although, with my newbie self, alot of my battles online and with bots have consisted of me just clashing and eventually dying. This stuff is hard to understand and get a hold of. But it rocks.

Too bad there's only two servers up for .009b.

Greiver
07-04-2006, 06:22 AM
as for a training map it wouldnt have to look special are anything would it, i could probley make one but im not so femilliar with the saber system but a training session with razor or hockney would fix that

UDM
07-04-2006, 06:51 AM
Doctor Shaft: glad you liked the mod, 010 will have faster paced combat, and I'm going to help Hockney with the manual too. I didn't think anything of the mod before I tried it, but I had the same reaction like you when I finally did :)

Greiver: I suppose so, I could help with the map because I've got more experience with mapping than any other areas of modding, but then single player scripts are a problem for me

Kurgan
07-04-2006, 01:42 PM
Enhanced has really come into its own since I've been away... kudos. ;)

Lathain Valtiel
07-05-2006, 03:17 PM
Greetings Doc Shaft, fellow former Promod enthusiast. Good to see you.

Shame I don't share your like of this system... totally kills any use the saber has in fast paced FFA for me since I was (and possibly still am) more than capable of getting past block in three seconds or less unless the guy was quick and decent. And the autodefense... guh.

God, I would destroy entire populated worlds for a Promod 4. That did tactical sabery as it should be done.

JRHockney*
07-05-2006, 03:44 PM
You can still run around and hit people in the back for more damage. Its just risky. The auto block is very important because its what helps keep this system movie realistic. Heck, if I went to the theatre and saw a starwars movie where the jedis fight like they do in base JKA saber combat, I'd ask for my money back. I'd also probably also make sure I wasnt delusional and in a circus watching acrobats with lightsticks or something. :p

Base sabercombat is fun, but raven could have done much better at keeping it true to the movies. Thats why we do what we do with Enhanced. The next build will be more intense and fast paced then 0.0.9 btw. Not to mention more balanced.

Lathain Valtiel
07-05-2006, 04:08 PM
Unfortunately, this is Jedi Academy. Not a movie.

Movie combat DOES NOT translate too tell to games. Look at Goldeneye for N64. It was one of the best console FPSes of its time simply because it basically said 'screw the movie'.

Similar deal with the Chronicles of Riddick.

Games that attempt to be like movies are boring as sin. Mainly because you sit and WATCH movies, you don't play them. I want to push the rockets away and dodge them MYSELF, with MY skill, I don't want the game coddling me like a child as this mod does and doing it for me.

Besides, I never saw a Jedi magically take a rocket to the skull and just fall over to avoid damage, movie or otherwise, until this mod.

Vruki Salet
07-05-2006, 05:18 PM
Well normally in JKA a jedi takes a rocket to the skull and says nothing, or maybe "Stop that Jaden! Stop that Jaden!" Lol.

Actually though I agree a bit with the idea about movies. I think the idea is to try to make things look "as real as possible while being true to the spirit of an unreal fantasy movie" but movie combat is too fake for a game because #1 the good guy heroes in the movie have to be essentially unkillable and #2 saber combat in the movies is stage combat which is cool enough but emphasizes show over function.

But Lath you got to admit that a little assistance from the game is needed sometimes, because we don't have jedi reflexes even for pressing buttons fast enough. Like do you think we should have to use purely our own skill and aim a saber swing at flying blaster bolts to deflect them?

JRHockney*
07-05-2006, 05:20 PM
I agree that the jedi vs gunners could be better, but thats mostly out of my hands and we're focusing on the saber combat for the most part anyways. We would need to slow down the rockets a bit before we got rid of the auto push, and rockets are sadly still the most efficient way of killing jedi in this game even with the auto push. I personally think rockets should be alot more rare in this game and make the blasters stronger against jedi since there were very few rockets in the movies anyways. Often times fps games become too much about "who can get the rocket launcher first" as it is in this game. I like the idea of making blasters stronger because it makes jedis actually work to kill muiltiple gunners just like they do in the movies rather than just invincabily walk or run up to a gunner an kill him. I'd like to see gunners have little or no dodge, stonger blasters that occasionally make jedis cartwheel or dodge out of the way to avoid DP loss, and see rockets and other explosives less used in general. I still like the idea of a jedi being a match for several gunners, but only if he's good.

As far as our sabersystem is concerned, there is nothing wrong with trying to make combat more movielike. I've heard countless comments on how cool our system is to watch because of it and play because of it. Hopefullying one of these days we can convince a good animator to create some better looking walking animations so it looks even better. Our saber system is already just about as complex up close (as in fighting within 3 feet of eachother on average) as base combat is fight from further away (usually averaging about 10 to 15 feet from eachother.) Our system often requires even quicker reaction time because failing to parry a even 2 or 3 hits can decide a fight, and considering how close the fighters are to eachother, it requires a great eye to parry a move in the first place. Very careful and strategic running will be used more often in the next version for better positioning btw, but the walking comboing system we have is still the meat of the combat.

I know well that we are doing heading in the right direction with this mod saber combat wise. All I have to do is to read the positive comments here and jk2files again. I respect your undying support of the base system Lathain, but you've never really even tried to learn the Enhance saber combat system to the point where you can actually kill anything sufficiently without the "swoop in, strike, and run away combat" you and most others use in base (which does work to an extent if you know how the enhanced system works). It becomes alot more rewarding and complex when you can actually do that with walking and strategic running.

Ok, I'm now way off topic so this will be my last post on this subject.

Lathain Valtiel
07-06-2006, 02:27 AM
But Lath you got to admit that a little assistance from the game is needed sometimes, because we don't have jedi reflexes even for pressing buttons fast enough. Like do you think we should have to use purely our own skill and aim a saber swing at flying blaster bolts to deflect them?

No, I expect you to dodge well enough to avoid the attack if you don't have your saber out (sabers block blaster bolts just by being in contact with them, I'm fairly certain this isn't avoidable and even I'm used to it, though I dodge reflexively). The E-11 is not exactly the fastest damage dealer in the game.

---

The rockets are ALREADY some of the slowest I've ever seen. Players skilled in the arts of hotkeying Push can use it to very annoying effect due to the not exactly lightning fast projectiles. No one is as good as a bot with that, but then nobody is as good as the bots with a disruptor either.

Force Speed or Dark Rage combined with strafe jump can evade lots of rockets (abuse corners) and takes some degree of skill to compensate for (at which point you need to stop complaining and take your lumps), and you can always just Pull the damn gun away, Protect, or even Grip or Grip+Push to stop him from firing for a second. And, of course, there is the relatively almighty Pullthrow.

Base saber damage at 2 or 3x is enough to result in the saber being a lethal weapon capable of outpacing gunners in kills. I ought to know, I was masterful at that particular art back when I played JA Chop Shop against the likes of Pink Panther.

I'd point out that the majority of JA players these days are honorz imbeciles. I am not impressed with any array of positive reviews thus. As for me not learning this system... I'm not insane, that's why. I'd like to retain my skill in the old style.

Vruki Salet
07-06-2006, 03:28 AM
honorz imbeciles

Howz about a breakz from that hostilityz? It's just a f***ing game, i.e. A TOY! Just relax while people enjoy it how they want with their friends and you can enjoy it the way you want with yours.

(Sorry to all for letting this get so off-topic.The real thread topic is a good one so if anyone could get it back on the rails that would be great.)

Maxstate
07-06-2006, 05:11 AM
Howz about a breakz from that hostilityz? It's just a f***ing game, i.e. A TOY! Just relax while people enjoy it how they want with their friends and you can enjoy it the way you want with yours.

(Sorry to all for letting this get so off-topic.The real thread topic is a good one so if anyone could get it back on the rails that would be great.)

First of all, coming live straight out of Internet Club "The Matrix" from Bosnia, me! Hi guys!

Second of all He, I thought Vruki was a she.. Im confused, explain please? :D

Third, I like everyone/thing in this thread.

razorace
07-06-2006, 01:42 PM
Dacks on a Forum Part 2

Anyway, I agree with Lath that the rocket speed is slower than what would be realistic.

Vruki Salet
07-06-2006, 01:59 PM
Things are nice if every gun is speeded up * 5. Try it it's good.

JRHockney*
07-06-2006, 02:59 PM
Dacks on a Forum Part 2

LOL, Poor Dacks. Well, thats what he gets for always using a girl on his avatar picture!

JRHockney*
07-06-2006, 03:55 PM
Dacks is the former leader of the MovieBattles team and was always thought to be a girl because of his avatar and community picture. I think he was purposely just trying to mess with people though.

Max probably got you confused with Tapela or somebody else.

Lathain Valtiel
07-06-2006, 09:50 PM
Howz about a breakz from that hostilityz?

I call stupidity when I see it, and frankly with those types I'm seeing it as if I employed a real-life form of Force Seeing on it.

Maxstate
07-07-2006, 08:43 AM
@Vruki stuff, ah thanks for clearing that up. I really had no idea :D


I call stupidity when I see it, and frankly with those types I'm seeing it as if I employed a real-life form of Force Seeing on it.
NO,U

Im currently in a city called Sanski Most, which litterally means Bridge over the river Sana lol. You wont believe how hard it is typing on a non qwerty keyboard, though the nice people at the post office are willing to help. See intrawebz for the masses is still kinda new here, the biggest internet center around is here in the post office. And look at all these new cool smilies I can make: = =Đ čččččččččćčćčćčćčćčćčć lol!
Raze, could you check out and compare IP's from 3 of my last posts? Or is it profile-user based?

Lath, chill out.

razorace
07-07-2006, 02:02 PM
I'm not a supermoderator, I don't have that ability.

Machine Knight
07-11-2006, 03:18 AM
DL the mod a few days ago. When I read the manual it seemed pretty cool. Played it for awhile and it's pretty neat but I don't feel I really have much control over what happens. I've even killed the bots a few times now. I try to do what the manual says but it doesn't always work out the way I thought it would.

When I disarm a bot I never can get an attack off before they call it back to themselves. It seems my character all the sudden lacks any speed. I have fp and dp is fine.

Also alot of times the bots will get right in my face and I basiclly can no longer attack. I try to parry but that rarely works when they get that close.

Also is there any better explanation of how to parry and whatnot? Any videos or pictures so I can get a better visual as to what to do?

I try to move into the swings to parry but so many times I will get stunned or slow bounce.

I use Single Blade Blue Style.

Thanks!

UDM
07-11-2006, 05:14 AM
Good idea, I could make a training video when I have the time

When bots go right in your face and attack, that's a bug with the hardcoded engine that we call "lightning strikes". It basically eats up all your DP very quickly, due to the way that JKA's saber fighting system works. I heard that Razor Ace has fixed this in the upcoming version

razorace
07-11-2006, 02:25 PM
Another suggestion would be to slow down the saber animations with g_saberanimspeed. That will make the moves easier to understand. I originally had OJP use a slower g_saberanimspeed by default, but players didn't like it.