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ZerooftheFour
07-04-2006, 09:09 PM
What if a force user was able to use both light and dark side? change up the UI and have a button, Jedi / Sith instead of Light / Dark, and Jedi / Sith button would only be segnificant to your npc side, but you are able to set any force you want in one interface, ''No power is inhairintly good or evil, its how you use them'' also, make sure all force powers can be used in combonation with each other at the cost of major FP, it wouldnt be very statigic, but it would be cool. stuff like having speed absorb protect rage all at once and running around griping zapping draining mintricking people all at once. If you have the points for it, (i know that was noobish lol) but what if there was another setting where if you didnt set a light saber you get something like 5x force regain, to mimic the idea of a Sith Master or Jedi Master... also proply make a Extra setting like Force Pool where lvl 1 would be 150 points of force, lvl 2 would be 200 pts, and level 3 would be 250, but only this much for would be available to Sith/Jedi masters, because it would be very very unbalenced in Light Saber Duels... sorry if im stepping into FM3/LastHope lines, but i think it would be a good idea... plus idk if im missing any unbalancing gaps... but fill me in if im missing something unfair about this

razorace
07-04-2006, 09:40 PM
I'm not against allowing players to choose any force powers they want.

UDM
07-05-2006, 04:01 AM
I'm for the idea too, but I've got a suggestion

Why don't we still keep Jedi and Sith, but penalize them if they decide to use force powers that are out of their category? If Jedi want to use force drain, then they have to use more force powers. Similarly, if the Sith want to use Heal, then they require like say 70FP, which is more than the standard requirement. After all, if a Sith has fallen so far into the dark side, then he may have more or less forgotten what it was like to go through a force healing process

ZerooftheFour
07-05-2006, 07:11 PM
this is off topic but the whole sith healing thing, isnt it plagus that was the only force user able to heal and he was dark side. but ya, i think that idea is good to, either have the force cost more or have the points cost more, its more realistic in that since because if you have a tendency to the dark, its easyer to use dark force, if your to the light its easyer to use light force

JRHockney*
07-05-2006, 07:44 PM
this is off topic but the whole sith healing thing, isnt it plagus that was the only force user able to heal and he was dark side. but ya, i think that idea is good to, either have the force cost more or have the points cost more, its more realistic in that since because if you have a tendency to the dark, its easyer to use dark force, if your to the light its easyer to use light force

Whoa, that gives me a crazy idea on what to do with drain. Maybe we should get rid of team heal and let drain do that since Darth Plagus did it. Maybe work like this.
Level 1: heals teamates HP
Level 2: Heals teamates HP and FP
Level 3: Heals teammates HP, FP, and DP.

I like UDM's idea above too.

Maxstate
07-06-2006, 05:19 AM
Grip = manipulate
Lightning = Electric judgement :P

Its so hard typing on these damn Bosnian keyboards.

razorace
07-06-2006, 01:43 PM
Electric judgement = Funnest EU Name for Light Side Power, EVER.

Maxstate
07-07-2006, 09:00 AM
Electric judgement = Funnest EU Name for Light Side Power, EVER.
Dude I know, I know!

Doctor Shaft
07-08-2006, 05:53 PM
I'd been trying to think of what would make a good and feasible Force Powers suggestion. And the more I think about it, the less ideas seem good to me.

On the one hand, you don't want to "change" the Force Powers because that's what defines them in the first place. On the other hand, if we did allow "Dark and Light" powers to be selectable, you have to wonder what's the difference between a Jedi or Sith in this game at all?

And yet, I liked that suggestion about allowing full access to force powers, just like they did with MotS. And as I think about it more, the more I wonder if this would be an excellent idea. The other thing would be, then, how do you improve upon the MotS model (if you were indeed to allow it to be used?

The MotS model still seemed a little too free-form for my taste, to the point where there was no difference between the Light and the Dark. Really, it was more of a game of convenience instead. It would just seem silly to not use Force Lightning, or to not have access to this or that power.

Either way, I think that could be a neat model to use. The MotS model, on the other hand, wasn't entirely defunct. MotS separated all of the powers into tiers. You could only select a certain number of powers from each tier. So there was the entirely neutral tier that allowed four out of five selections. but this was only because they added that brand new power that never saw the light of day (was it the ability to leave your body and look around the map? Yeah, useless).

For this mod, you'd just leave the neutral power tier alone.

MotS then broke into more tiers. If you wanted both saber throw and force push, you couldn't get healing on top of it too. Blah blah blah.

Obviously, a better method for JA would be to separate the powers into tiers, allowing users to choose powers based on what they think they want. So, if you want to be full dark side, it's completely possible. But if you wanted to mix and match, you wouldn't be able to get certain powers together, necessarily.



Another idea I had was taking the tier idea and separating all of the powers into groups. The groups would represent different categories of the Force Powers in the game. To emulate the "Jedi/Sith" component, One would spend points based on how "far" they wanted to go in terms of using the Force.

Bad Example:

A "Force Healing" tier would exist, having Force Heal at 2 levels. The first level provides little healing, and the second level restores something like 20 hps for a chunk of mana. The Dark Side would require you to go into level 3 and 4, and give you Force Drain. The Sith would still have healings, but also the ability to Drain others for a more efficient healing ability.

The advantage/difference between Sith and Jedi would be that while Sith have "more Force powers" and some times deadlier offensive moves, Jedi would spend less points on having the powers, and have more for other things. What that would be? Erm... I don't know. I just thought of this idea.

The tiers would be mixed so that you'd have to spend points on certain "categories" to advance into other areas. So there wouldn't necessarily be a "Neutral powers" category. Push and Pull might be in the same category along with lightning. Force Protect could be transformed into Rage.

What would Jedi get in return for no spending extra points on the Dark Side? Again, haven't given a thought. Maybe I'll have a better, more solidified idea if this idea even makes sense.

:)

razorace
07-08-2006, 06:44 PM
So, the one sentence summary would be that Dark Side powers are really just higher level functions of Light Side powers. Hmm, that's an interesting idea.

From what I can remember from our discussions on a skill systems, one of our ideas was to give players skill bonuses for not multi-classing/tiering their abilities. IE, a player could be whatever they wanted, but a pure Jedi or a pure Bounty Hunter would gain skill point bonuses for doing so. I'm not sure I'm still really for that, but it's an iteresting idea. :)

ZerooftheFour
07-08-2006, 07:34 PM
but yet if we go into that class system we will be moving into the idea of mb2, but are we considering something like access to all ''classes abiltys'' like if you wanted a disrupter and your a jedi, its like a 20 points abilty to have a disrupter... is this a good direction OJP is heading to? maybe make a comand g_classes, 0 is no classes and 1 is classes, and g_allforce 0 is no and 1 is access to all powers, in case it wasnt a good idea, but i think it would be a good idea to have everything open to anyone but at a cost if its outside your rank, proplem is if everything is open there WILL be balancing issues, just please no T3 lol j/k... but all in all sounds like it be very dificult to code and get a UI for, maybe in 2.0?

and the drain idea stated by JR i think it would kick some major ass, have like a red beam from your hand to heal people, only proplem is that what if its ffa and you have no teammates? well then draining a corpse sould give you health considering that corpses are defencless lol and it would recover your health, idk but its sorta like a guild wars necromancer where you get power from dead people, but thats almost off the topic of star wars... but maybe have it where u drain a corpse long enough a NPC spawns in its place and its your minoin lol again sorta like a necromancer in guild wars... maybe have a 3 way drain toggle, Reborn, Replenish, Repower, but then it would make drain to overpowered... but if we open light and dark force powers y not? anyone can use it, but its proply a better idea for drain then lightining

ensiform
07-08-2006, 07:34 PM
i say no to this in multiplayer but in COOP since you can use some of each in single player, maybe have like 150 or 200 points and ignore the "force mastery" and allow people to have some from each side and neutral.

weapon selection too... so say, someone choses to have 3 weapons, another has more, same with force powers too, thus having different strengths and able to work together with different items.

Doctor Shaft
07-08-2006, 08:47 PM
So, the one sentence summary would be that Dark Side powers are really just higher level functions of Light Side powers. Hmm, that's an interesting idea.

From what I can remember from our discussions on a skill systems, one of our ideas was to give players skill bonuses for not multi-classing/tiering their abilities. IE, a player could be whatever they wanted, but a pure Jedi or a pure Bounty Hunter would gain skill point bonuses for doing so. I'm not sure I'm still really for that, but it's an iteresting idea. :)

Yeah, basically, I could have simply summed it up like that.

Granted, I understand that actually following through and constructing such a system seems a little more complicated than it might be worth. What kind of skill bonuses would "pure" Jedi use.


In response to the other posts regarding weapons. Promod (I know, I'm pimping old mods here) managed to successfully manage the skill system by considering all of the guns as different Force abilities. So, just like you added points to get lightsaber combat skills, so to did you have to spend points on a variety of weapons to gain proficiency.

While playing the mod, there were some pure bounty hunters, pure Sith/Jedi, and hybrid Jedi that could both use the force, use a lightsaber, and then switch a deadly disruptor weapon. I know OJP isn't necessarily a class-based mod, however, so perhaps the system could be somewhat modified (if things ever went there).


Either way, I've always liked the idea of a Force Power system that actually mirrored the allure of the Dark Side, as opposed to simply saying "Give up this set of stuff for that set of stuff." You can decide to either possess a variety of skills and abilities that may not necessarily make all powerful in the Force, or... choose to become extremely powerful, but at the expense of not having those other skills and abilities. But a Sith would consider those abilities useless anyway, wouldn't they? :)

razorace
07-08-2006, 10:56 PM
So, what would the difference be between a pure Jedi and a pure Sith?

ensiform
07-09-2006, 01:12 AM
no use of sith powers as a jedi and no use of jedi powers as sith. currently like it is in basejka/jk2

ZerooftheFour
07-09-2006, 04:25 AM
no use of sith powers as a jedi and no use of jedi powers as sith. currently like it is in basejka/jk2


y not?

ensiform
07-09-2006, 11:51 AM
i was simply explaining what "pure" sith/jedi is.

razorace
07-09-2006, 01:49 PM
I was referring to what it would be under Dr. Shaft's idea, in terms of point distrobution.

Lathain Valtiel
07-09-2006, 02:25 PM
Meh, Promod still had the light/dark seperation as normal. It was either Light powers or Dark powers.

What basically happened was that if you chose higher level Force Powers, you could not achieve higher levels of gunmanship.

For example, taking Lv. 1 Force Powers locked you out of the VERY lethal Lv. 4 gun skills. leaving you with JO level guns and vice versa.

Taking Lv. 2 Force left you with Lv. 2 guns, which were slightly weaker than JO originals.

Taking Lv. 3 Force left you with Lv. 1 guns that were stripped of secondary fire.

Of course, a love tap with the saber was death against gunners, but not so against other Jedi who took less damage.

---

What I imagine Shaft means is that, say you have two Force Powers, like Force Destruction and Force Heal. Say they have 4 levels each hypothetically.

If you dare take Lv. 4 in one of them, you are barred from mastering Force Heal even if you have the points, because your character spent the time mastering Force Destruction at its highest levels.

ZerooftheFour
07-09-2006, 05:11 PM
i was simply explaining what "pure" sith/jedi is.

my bad

Greiver
07-10-2006, 09:55 AM
i like the idea of a tiered system but i was thinking more along the lines of each tier building of the previous

grip builds off pull lightning builds off push speed builds off jump

or something along similar lines

Darth Cariss
07-10-2006, 10:04 AM
What is this mod you guys are talking about? Do you have a link? :P

UDM
07-10-2006, 11:03 AM
http://jediknight2.filefront.com/file/ProMod;10051

For JK2 only tho

razorace
07-10-2006, 02:05 PM
I had an idea about the skill system. Why not just catagorize each ability's skill levels based on how good they are compared to the Star Wars universe at large?

IE, for force skills, it would be....
No Ability, Padawan, Jedi Knight, Jedi Master, Best in the Galaxy

The Best in the Galaxy level would take a MASSIVE point investment but it would grant extra power to the players who have it. For example, a pistol shooter with Best in the Galaxy could have perfect accuracy in any situation (running, jumping, etc).

JRHockney*
07-10-2006, 03:03 PM
I had an idea about the skill system. Why not just catagorize each ability's skill levels based on how good they are compared to the Star Wars universe at large?

IE, for force skills, it would be....
No Ability, Padawan, Jedi Knight, Jedi Master, Best in the Galaxy

The Best in the Galaxy level would take a MASSIVE point investment but it would grant extra power to the players who have it. For example, a pistol shooter with Best in the Galaxy could have perfect accuracy in any situation (running, jumping, etc).

I like the idea, but I think a "best in the Galaxy gunner should be able to demolish a padawan jedi. I mean what would happen if Jango fett went up against a jedi youngling? I would also not only increase the accuracy of the guns, but the DP damage dont against a saber. A best in the galaxy gunner would probably know jedi style well enough to know where the best place to shoot them is at all times and how to dodge, therefore they should be a match for most jedi and do more DP damage with even a blaster have have better dodge or something. Best in the galaxy gunners would only be a match for best in the galaxy jedi if they had the best weapons.

The Question I have about this idea is how would you decide who is at what level in an FFA type situation. I suppose you could make it so that you could choose your level, but a kill done against a higher level person would be worth more gamepoints. For example: a no skill person killing a best in the galaxy person would get 5 points, killing a padawan would be worth 2 points to him. Pretty much anything a best in the galaxy person kills willl be worth 1 point. See what I'm getting at? It might make for some very interesting FFA and Team FFA.

Of course coding this idea might be a bit time consuming. There would be a TON of switch statements for the different point values of each type. Well, its just one possibility on how to make this system work.

razorace
07-10-2006, 03:22 PM
I'd probably consider upping the gunner DP damage in general if we make the gunners have their accuracy based on their skill level. However, I think the DP cost for block should be consistant, otherwise it culd be confusing/frustrating.

As for the skill levels in FFA, it depends on what we want to do with it. Ideally I'd like to set it up so that players start at a certain skill point level and then build up skill points as they kill other players. However, I think the skill system itself wouldn't have to depend on that ability.

Lathain Valtiel
07-10-2006, 06:31 PM
Jedi Lord sounds better than Best in the Galaxy, which is just long and unecessary.

Plus Jedi Lord was the highest rank in Jedi Knight I.

razorace
07-10-2006, 08:44 PM
You're probably right. I was just using the term for concept purposes. I don't think the levels are actually labeled ingame.

Anyway, I've started a new thread that's a bit more specific to the skill system. Link (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=167356)