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View Full Version : Mace Windu vs. Darth Sidious, fluke or fair fight?


ExileRevan
07-21-2006, 03:42 PM
Alright, it is my beleif that Mace Windu defeated Sidious fair and square, some say that The Emperor let him win, my question is to what point and purpose would Sidious let Mace win? You cant realy trust Ani to be loyal to you ( although he was ). Another beleif I have is about Yoda being greatly weakend by the Jedi Purge, and Mace hadnt been. What do you all think?

Darth Andrew
07-21-2006, 04:07 PM
To me, it looked like Palpatine was simply bluffing so as to draw Anakin into the dark side. Anakin knew that if Palpatine was killed, he wouldn't learn the power to save Padme. Also, I'm sure Palpy did it to see where Anakin's allegiance truly went to.

Servercat
07-21-2006, 11:48 PM
it looked that way to me as well and the novelization of the movie says the same thing. Mace even realizes it( at least partially) midway during the fight.

KyleOfHarpenden
07-22-2006, 07:42 AM
ye it could have been a bluff becaus ei thought yoda would kick his arse(witch he probally would have done if it was more of a fair fight) Windu is strong but not the best so ye it was all a trick

itchythesamurai
07-22-2006, 08:02 AM
I don't think it was all just a trick, because that means Palpatine would've just let Windu mess up his face, and you know how vain those Sith get.

Also, I didn't think Mace's death was final enough. He gets thrown out of a window, but there are ways for Jedi Masters to get around that.

Darth_Terros
07-22-2006, 09:59 AM
I don't think it was all just a trick, because that means Palpatine would've just let Windu mess up his face, and you know how vain those Sith get.


Dont think i've ever seen any evidence of a vain sith?

itchythesamurai
07-22-2006, 10:15 AM
My logic is that Dark Jedis would be more self-centered and interested in superficial and materialistic pursuits. They like to be pampered more than their light side counterparts. It might've just been me, but the Chancellor seemed to be very mindful of his appearance before Mace Windu's attack.

Pho3nix
07-22-2006, 10:24 AM
Palpatine had to "lose" so that he was able to manipulate Anakin the last bit and make him choose to go on the path to the darkside, so yes. He did lose on purpose.

johnnyoi
07-22-2006, 01:16 PM
it's really simple....

If windu would have beaten Sidious, Sidious would have died, and there wouldn't have been an empire(wel not sidious' empire anyway). He wouldn't have been able to resurrect himself yet!

TK-8252
07-22-2006, 01:21 PM
Officially, Sidious didn't throw the fight. Mace DID win fair and square. It has been speculated that he did let Mace win, which I can easily see why some would think so (I thought so until I heard the official explanation).

itchythesamurai
07-22-2006, 02:18 PM
So if Sidious actually lost, he just turned a really bad situation to his advantage. I bet he could have still persuaded Anakin after killing Mace anyway, he's a charismatic kinda guy.

Pho3nix
07-22-2006, 02:41 PM
Probably, but I still think it was part of his plan, and I don't think you should over-analyze Star Wars.

itchythesamurai
07-22-2006, 02:55 PM
I agree that Star Wars should be enjoyed rather than nitpicked, but some things are open to debate, and there's fun to be had in innocent speculation. Besides, the really great movies are the ones people can discuss later.

johnnyoi
07-22-2006, 03:52 PM
I agree that Star Wars should be enjoyed rather than nitpicked, but some things are open to debate, and there's fun to be had in innocent speculation. Besides, the really great movies are the ones people can discuss later.

right on! :D

Black Jesus
07-27-2006, 06:31 AM
This link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mace_Windu#Windu.27s_controversial_death) has a decent look at it.

I think Sidious, with his vast abilities, let Mace "gain the advantage", when he had none all along.

RC-1162
07-27-2006, 08:20 AM
it was a gawddamn fluke :xp: and nobody say otherwise!

Davinq
07-27-2006, 10:08 PM
I think it was BECAUSE of the Jedi Purge that Sidious was able to win, because it weakened Mace enough by causing enough of a distraction for Anakin to amputate away.

TK-8252
07-27-2006, 10:24 PM
"The character profiles for both Windu and Palpatine on the official Star Wars website describe Windu as gaining the advantage, and make no mention of Palpatine throwing the fight."

"The book "The Making of Star Wars Revenge of the Sith" mentions that this particular scene was edited with the intention of making so that Palpatine did not fake his loss in the lightsaber duel."

Now that that's settled...

Kain
07-27-2006, 11:46 PM
it looked that way to me as well and the novelization of the movie says the same thing. Mace even realizes it( at least partially) midway during the fight.

I want the quote from the novel where it says Mace realizes he's being toyed with.

Davinq
07-28-2006, 12:36 AM
Can't help you there... hey Kain are you a member of the LotR TLA by any chance?

Bill-Ba D'Kota
07-29-2006, 03:21 AM
I think it was BECAUSE of the Jedi Purge that Sidious was able to win, because it weakened Mace enough by causing enough of a distraction for Anakin to amputate away.

How is this possible? Mace was defeated by Sidious and Anakin before any purging took place. Remember, it was after Anakin swore allegiance to Sidious that Sidious executed Order 66... Darn Jedi.. they are relentless.

RC-1162
07-29-2006, 04:11 AM
the thing is, Mace shouldnt have kept talking "oh, im going to end this...". he should have just taken off Palpy's head before anakin made it to the office

MachineCult
07-29-2006, 07:05 AM
I think it was BECAUSE of the Jedi Purge that Sidious was able to win, because it weakened Mace enough by causing enough of a distraction for Anakin to amputate away.
lol, like Bill said, Mace was killed BEFORE the purge so you fail totally and completely.

the thing is, Mace shouldnt have kept talking "oh, im going to end this...". he should have just taken off Palpy's head before anakin made it to the office
He couldn't really move his saber because he was holding to shield himself from Palpatines lightning.

RC-1162
07-29-2006, 11:19 AM
^^^
no, i meant just after Mace knocks Palpy's saber out of the window, where he makes Palpy crawl backward by holding his saber point at Palpy's throat. at that time, Anakin enters. i'm saying Mace should have just beheaded old Sidious when he had the clear shot instead of going into saying what he would do.

St. Jimmy
07-29-2006, 11:49 PM
I hate it when Hero's do that.

Faaip De Oaid
08-03-2006, 06:39 PM
Well Lucas planned for him to die so they had to make him do something stupid enough that would get him killed.

Negative Sun
08-17-2006, 03:45 PM
This link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mace_Windu#Windu.27s_controversial_death) has a decent look at it.

I think Sidious, with his vast abilities, let Mace "gain the advantage", when he had none all along.
"In the Revenge of the Sith-video game, Windu has a slightly more alternative death. Instead of cutting off his hand, Anakin blocks Windu's attack on the Chancellor and the player ends up dueling the Jedi Master. In the end, Skywalker stabs Windu and kicks him out the same window from which he fell in the film."

Anakin beating Mace???
haha I don't f***ing think so!!!

Great Scott!
08-17-2006, 04:55 PM
Uhhh, pretty sure he is the chosen one...

Why does everyone think Mace Windu is some super-natural all-powerful being?

DarthMuffin
08-17-2006, 10:48 PM
Uhhh, pretty sure he is the chosen one...

Why does everyone think Mace Windu is some super-natural all-powerful being?

Yet he didn't beat Obi-Wan. And I think there's way too much fuss about the "chose one" thingy. Mace isn't a super powerful god, but neither is Anakin. They are both humans.

As far as I am concerned, I strongly believe that Mace won. Yes, it was probably easier for Palpy to convert Anakin with the turn of event. But knowing how much he loves power (that's pretty much the only thing he loves), I don't think he would risk loosing everything only to convert Anakin. At that point, the future of the Sith rested solely on his shoulders. He wouldn't risk it.

Anakin might have been his most powerful weapon, but it's not his only one.

YertyL
08-18-2006, 05:24 AM
"In the Revenge of the Sith-video game, Windu has a slightly more alternative death. Instead of cutting off his hand, Anakin blocks Windu's attack on the Chancellor and the player ends up dueling the Jedi Master. In the end, Skywalker stabs Windu and kicks him out the same window from which he fell in the film."

Anakin beating Mace???
haha I don't f***ing think so!!!
Hmm how about
Anakin beating Dooku?
haha I don't f***ing think so!!!

And btw. nobody willingly offers his hands to be cut off.

Samurai DD
08-18-2006, 11:55 AM
I choose to believe that Windu won the lightsaber battle, and that Palpatine became aware that Anakin would come only after he was under Mace's blade. C'mon, Windu is impossible to beat in duel, as far as we know, but maybe Sidious could beat him, we don't know about his fighting style as much. But I only choose to believe that, as it is open to debate until George comes out and says this or that.

Negative Sun
08-18-2006, 12:43 PM
Uhhh, pretty sure he is the chosen one...

Why does everyone think Mace Windu is some super-natural all-powerful being?
Chosen One or not, he couldn't beat Mace one his best day...Like it was said before, he couldn't beat Obi-Wan in a fair duel, what chance does he have against Mace?

Kain
08-19-2006, 11:01 AM
it is open to debate until George comes out and says this or that.

Yea, except that it has been said, on SW.com, which is exactly as GL wants it and has all the facts straight from him, that Windu won. There is no debate - its basically people who've read the official explination on SW.com and those who are completely dillusional in their observations.

DarthMuffin
08-19-2006, 12:02 PM
It says somewhere in the databank (couldn't find it anymore; perhaps they edited it) that Windu had only been beaten in a duel by two other Jedi: Yoda and Dooku. Since Anakin did beat Dooku, one can believe that he could also beat Windu. But then, it was a 2v1 on Dooku for some time, so it's not exactly a "fair duel". Same thing with Windu in the video game ("tired" of his duel against Palpy).

EDIT: Found it. It's in the expended universe tab for Windu.

In his day, Mace was one of the best lightsaber fighters of the Jedi order. It was said only two opponents ever bested him -- Yoda, and Dooku.

But then, that's technically from the EU. So it can obviously be considered as a heap of crap.

PoiuyWired
08-19-2006, 12:21 PM
Chosen One or not, he couldn't beat Mace one his best day...Like it was said before, he couldn't beat Obi-Wan in a fair duel, what chance does he have against Mace?

Well, Vader did beat Obi-Wan eventually...

That aside, there are rarely fair duels, unless its ... well... a duel. Even that is subject to debate, from mental condition to surprise factor to equipment to ... you got the idea.

Usually good guys and bad guys don't stand around the raing and goes "Round One Fight!!!" as they jump apart from each other and start their moves., and Jedi Power Battles does not count.

So Technically Mace/Sidious is not a fair fight, nor did Anakin/ObiWan.

Negative Sun
08-19-2006, 01:07 PM
Good point...but Anakin is still a wimp

TK-8252
08-19-2006, 03:14 PM
Well, Vader did beat Obi-Wan eventually...

Only because he LET him beat him. :dozey:

And Obi-Wan probably hadn't picked up a lightsaber in years... Vader, however, trained regularly.

Pho3nix
08-19-2006, 03:21 PM
Only because he LET him beat him. :dozey:

And Obi-Wan probably hadn't picked up a lightsaber in years... Vader, however, trained regularly.

And not to mention the age difference.

DarthMuffin
08-19-2006, 03:50 PM
And not to mention the age difference.

Age matters not! as Yoda would say if he had read this.

PoiuyWired
08-19-2006, 07:14 PM
And not to mention the age difference.

Well, Vader can DEFINITELY get "accessability parking space" but the same cannot be said for ObiWan.

And, I do think that ObiWan cannot beat Vader even if he tried, or he might actually try to "beat some sense into him" or something.

Terran I
08-19-2006, 07:37 PM
My vote for the Emperor, You don't live that long unless you are strong and smart, and by the way Palpy knew that Padme is going to die so if he knew that he could know about the outcome of his battle with Mace, and he could predict that Vader will be there to aid him, and officially become his apprentice!

TK-8252
08-19-2006, 10:34 PM
My vote for the Emperor, You don't live that long unless you are strong and smart, and by the way Palpy knew that Padme is going to die so if he knew that he could know about the outcome of his battle with Mace, and he could predict that Vader will be there to aid him, and officially become his apprentice!

Did you read the thread? If you did, you'd know that we've already established that the Emperor DID lose the fight to Mace and what you posted is inaccurate. Please read the thread first.

Terran I
08-20-2006, 04:57 AM
I read it the first time, I say what I think, I watch the movie and understand it my way. I don't watch a film and than ask the director or the writers what they wanted to say, if that was not clearly explained than it is their problem not mine. Don't get mad just because I say what I think even if it is wrong. Palpy knew that Jedi are coming to get so he was ready to fight, and I think that he planed everything in that battle.

TK-8252
08-20-2006, 05:27 AM
I read it the first time, I say what I think, I watch the movie and understand it my way. I don't watch a film and than ask the director or the writers what they wanted to say, if that was not clearly explained than it is their problem not mine. Don't get mad just because I say what I think even if it is wrong. Palpy knew that Jedi are coming to get so he was ready to fight, and I think that he planed everything in that battle.

So you're saying that you think that's how the scene SHOULD have been.

But it wasn't. I get what you're saying; that's what I thought too when I saw the movie, but George makes the movies, and that's how it is...

I wish Han would have shot first... but too bad for me, that's not how it is. Oh well.

PoiuyWired
08-20-2006, 10:33 AM
So you're saying that you think that's how the scene SHOULD have been.

But it wasn't. I get what you're saying; that's what I thought too when I saw the movie, but George makes the movies, and that's how it is...

I wish Han would have shot first... but too bad for me, that's not how it is. Oh well.

Well, at least now Han didn't shoot second...

DarthMuffin
08-20-2006, 11:01 AM
I think that he planed everything in that battle.

Precisely. But don't you think that counting on Anakin to save his butt is a bit risky? Knowing that he does plan everything, do you think he would really rely on such an uncertainty to achieve his goal? He would *never* risk his life, his dreams of power and the future of the sith only to have Anakin on his side. Palpy only cares about himself; Anakin is a mere tool for him to use in order to achieve the power he wants.

Palpy planed everything. The goal of this plan is to become Emperor and eradicate the Jedi. Ultimately, it wasn't to turn Anakin.

Great Scott!
08-22-2006, 09:32 AM
Then why did he use the force to give birth to Anakin?

Jeff
08-22-2006, 10:29 AM
Then why did he use the force to give birth to Anakin?He didn't <_<

Great Scott!
08-22-2006, 11:30 AM
The ROTS novel says he did... doesn't it?

Oh, and if you're replying to the person right above you, there's no reason to quote.

PoiuyWired
08-22-2006, 12:26 PM
Precisely. But don't you think that counting on Anakin to save his butt is a bit risky? Knowing that he does plan everything, do you think he would really rely on such an uncertainty to achieve his goal? He would *never* risk his life, his dreams of power and the future of the sith only to have Anakin on his side. Palpy only cares about himself; Anakin is a mere tool for him to use in order to achieve the power he wants.

Palpy planed everything. The goal of this plan is to become Emperor and eradicate the Jedi. Ultimately, it wasn't to turn Anakin.

Well, for one, Palpy always THINKS he had control of everything, and it wouldn't be a surprice that sometimes things did slip out of his control. I am pretty sure he did not plan for Vader to give him a free trip down the DeathStar core. So underestimating Mace won't be improbable.

ALSO, where did ROTS novel say that Anakin is Palpy's "son" ??

If there is any indication of that, I would really love to see a quote or two for the line in the novel. :3

Well I suppose Palpy's master may have such ability (still waiting for novel) and the more infinite SWT mention a resurrected Maul. But mind you that is definitely an infinite episode, w/o the time tag of a canon label, unlike the last few SWTs.

DarthMuffin
08-22-2006, 01:23 PM
Well, for one, Palpy always THINKS he had control of everything, and it wouldn't be a surprice that sometimes things did slip out of his control. I am pretty sure he did not plan for Vader to give him a free trip down the DeathStar core. So underestimating Mace won't be improbable.

True. Just another proof that Mace did win. **** happens, as they say.


ALSO, where did ROTS novel say that Anakin is Palpy's "son" ??

If there is any indication of that, I would really love to see a quote or two for the line in the novel. :3

That's pure fan rumour. I heard it some time ago, but it's nothing official. I don't remember reading a reference to this in the RotS novel either (but then, it's been a long time since I read that). If there's a hint in the novel, it's probably the author speculating on unofficial material. Anakin is not Palpatine's "son", creation, or anything else.

EDIT: the language filter amazes me.

Prime
08-22-2006, 01:28 PM
The ROTS novel says he did... doesn't it?No.

kotorfan84
08-22-2006, 01:50 PM
Alright, it is my beleif that Mace Windu defeated Sidious fair and square, some say that The Emperor let him win, my question is to what point and purpose would Sidious let Mace win? You cant realy trust Ani to be loyal to you ( although he was ). Another beleif I have is about Yoda being greatly weakend by the Jedi Purge, and Mace hadnt been. What do you all think?

Sidious needed Anakin. Without Anakin, he'd have to face all the surviving jedi alone. Killing Mace Windu would've convinced Anakin, that palpetine was evil.

kotorfan84
08-22-2006, 01:54 PM
At the very least you have to admit that Sidious didn't run out of power, and could've kept the lightning going.

DarthMuffin
08-22-2006, 01:56 PM
Sidious needed Anakin. Without Anakin, he'd have to face all the surviving jedi alone.

No he didn't. Who killed most of the Jedi: Anakin or thousands of clones?

kotorfan84
08-22-2006, 02:05 PM
No he didn't. Who killed most of the Jedi: Anakin or thousands of clones?

okay, let's imagine for a second Sidious kills Mace and Anakin never shows up. Sidious then exacutes order 66, and ofcourse yodi and obi wan survive, and Anakin goes into hiding. Do you really think Sidious has a snow ball's chance in hell against all three, especially if the wait until Anakin becomes more powereful?

Great Scott!
08-22-2006, 02:14 PM
Wow... you know, that's a great point, I never thought of it that way... a very great Jedi, perhaps the best of them all, along with the chosen one, and another Jedi Master against Palpatine...

EDIT: But then again, Anakin MAY have been eliminated in order 66 if he didn't know about it beforehand... but still, Yoda and Obi-Wan against Palpatine alone...

TK-8252
08-22-2006, 03:33 PM
At the very least you have to admit that Sidious didn't run out of power, and could've kept the lightning going.

I believe that you're right on that account. IIRC, Sidious WAS faking when he pretended to be weak.

PoiuyWired
08-22-2006, 07:10 PM
More like, if Palpy would keep the lightning on, assuming that is his only tactic possable, would he be able to defeat Mace if not for Ani's interference?

Remember, time seems to be not on Palpy's side. If anakin is, say, late due to anything from bad traffic, to Padme wanting a longer goodbye kiss to ... then there is no promise that Palpy would walk out as the winner.

Point being, Palpy took a gamble that he think he has an upperhand, and he placed his bet right. But what is in his hand is just a pure sabacc... there is still no telling if a Fool's array show up.

MachineCult
08-22-2006, 07:17 PM
The duel didn't go according to plan for Palpatine, I think he knew the four Jedi were coming but thought that he would dispatch them all quickly and easily. I believe Anakin showing up when he did was luck for Palpatine and he used his vulnerable position to influence Anakin for the final time.

Henz
08-24-2006, 07:07 PM
He lost the duel but sword fighting was never his bag anyway. He's a minipulator, and exploited it as soon as he could. I didn't think he planned everything when I saw it.

kotorfan84
08-30-2006, 02:50 PM
So if Mace was able to defeat Sidious that easily, that must mean he's strongerthan Yoda. Mace's fight was shorter, and he had Sidious on the ground w/o his lightsaber.

ferris209
08-30-2006, 07:02 PM
I choose the believe that Mace won square and fair, he's an awsome lightsaber dualist, and I further think that Anakin was still ten years away from even coming close to beating Mace. As far as Sidious, who knows how he would have manipulated the situation if he would have beaten Mace. We all know he's good at turning any situation to his benefit. I think he knew all along no matter what happened between him and and other Jedi, Anakin would turn to the dark side becuase he was so scared of losing Padme', and no Jedi could save her in his mind. I also think Ol' Palpy really played it off when Anakin got there as Mace was holding him at saber point. Shooting out lighting and then whining about growing weak and couldn't hold it any longer, well, anyone with a mind says to "stop shooting lighting" Sidious and you won't be so weak.

So if Mace was able to defeat Sidious that easily, that must mean he's strongerthan Yoda. Mace's fight was shorter, and he had Sidious on the ground w/o his lightsaber.
I think that Sidious was stronger than Mace in the use of the Force, but Mace was way stronger than Sidious with the Lightsaber. Sidious and Yoda are almost equals with the use of the force, and Yoda will entertain the idea of have a "force fight". Mace would not, he barraged Sidious with strike after strike preventing Sidious from calling upon his Force tricks, thereby effectivly putting him on the ground. In the fight with Yoda, Sidious avoided as much Lightsaber play as possible, and at his first chance, he got away from it and utilized the a full "force fight".

Final thoughts*
1. Anakin was well on the road to being a Sith no matter the outcome of the office fight.
2. Mace Windu is a far better laserswordsman than Sidious. Yoda was even better than Sidious, which is why Sidious wouldn't let Yoda get close to him in the Senate Hall.
3. Sidious could sell a microwave to a group of Sand People, he would made anything turn to his favor, no matter the outcome.

kotorfan84
09-01-2006, 09:57 AM
I choose the believe that Mace won square and fair, he's an awsome lightsaber dualist, and I further think that Anakin was still ten years away from even coming close to beating Mace.

Wow, ten years is a long time, maybe you should look at how much stronger Anakin got between episode 2 and 3. I do agree that Mace was on a different level than Anakin, but ten years?

As far as Sidious, who knows how he would have manipulated the situation if he would have beaten Mace. We all know he's good at turning any situation to his benefit. I think he knew all along no matter what happened between him and and other Jedi, Anakin would turn to the dark side becuase he was so scared of losing Padme', and no Jedi could save her in his mind. I also think Ol' Palpy really played it off when Anakin got there as Mace was holding him at saber point.

I think Sidious calculated everything, and knew how it was going to go down. He needed Yoda and Mace to be seperated, because had they shown up, he would've been dead, so knowing Yoda had the best relationship with the wookies, he attacked them, knowing Yoda would leave. I think he also knew that although Anakin was scared to lose Padame, he wasn't far along yet to betray Obi Wan like he did Mace, and leaked the location of Grievious believing they would never send Anakin, especially if Palpatine recomended it, and have little choice but to send Obi Wan.

Shooting out lighting and then whining about growing weak and couldn't hold it any longer, well, anyone with a mind says to "stop shooting lighting" Sidious and you won't be so weak.

Why would he stop shooting lightning if Mace was going to kill him. I know Mace's original intent was to arrest palpatine, but once he started shooting lightning, he had to continue.

I think that Sidious was stronger than Mace in the use of the Force, but Mace was way stronger than Sidious with the Lightsaber. Sidious and Yoda are almost equals with the use of the force, and Yoda will entertain the idea of have a "force fight". Mace would not, he barraged Sidious with strike after strike preventing Sidious from calling upon his Force tricks, thereby effectivly putting him on the ground. In the fight with Yoda, Sidious avoided as much Lightsaber play as possible, and at his first chance, he got away from it and utilized the a full "force fight".

Sidious had ample opportunity to unleash some force lightning. You really don't need to much space, just look at the distance between Mace and Sidious when he unleashed it, and Sidious and Yoda, the last time Sidious unleashes it.

darthcarth
09-12-2006, 10:01 PM
That isnt what he is say he is saying that sidious didnt have time to unleash any force powers becasue mace windu was diverting all of sidiouses focus on to him.

Kurgan
09-13-2006, 11:47 AM
I think it's been confirmed (though the scene was tweaked and altered up to the last minute) that Mace indeed DID beat Sideous fair and square in the fight. The Sith Lord may be powerful, but he's also arrogant and makes all sorts of mistakes (you see this in all the movies he's in actually, he's not some infallible evil genius).

The only part where Sideous was "faking" according to Lucas, is when he's "begging for his life" and saying he's "too weak" in front of Anakin. Had Anakin not been there, I'm sure the "oppression of the Sith" would have been ended right then and there.

Perhaps Mace would have still had some confrontation with Anakin, perhaps not (perhaps Sideous had some kind of "influence" or hold on him that would have been broken upon his death). Perhaps Mace would have gone into exile, or sent Anakin to prison (or forgiven him), who knows?

But I don't buy this that Sideous was faking the entire time and it was that perfectly orchestrated. He simply took advantage of the situation as it was to try to pull it off in his favor.

And as for Yoda being all powerful, again, we need not assume that. Dooku is beaten by Anakin, Yoda runs away from him. Does this mean Anakin is stronger than Yoda? Obi-Wan beats Anakin, does this mean Obi-Wan is stronger than Yoda AND Anakin? (but then Anakin later beats Obi-Wan, so...?) You can go on forever like this. No fighter is all powerful and it's not a strict hierarchy. They all have different strengths and weaknesses, situational benefits/disadvantages, and everyone has a bad day, and their skills vary over time. And factor the force in, and it's not always a given who would win.

Kurgan
09-13-2006, 11:56 AM
The ROTS novel says he did... doesn't it?

Oh, and if you're replying to the person right above you, there's no reason to quote.

Well the novel implies that if anyone could do it ("use the force to influence the midichlorians to create life"), Darth Plageuis could have. Not that Palpatine created Anakin.

Palpatine admits he never actually learned this power (or at least the power to prevent death, no idea about the power to create life... of course he could be lying AGAIN to Anakin, for all we know there never was a "Darth Plagueis the Wise" ... though the Visual Dictionary claims it as if it's a fact that he existed, and was the master of Darth Sideous).

YertyL
09-14-2006, 07:04 AM
And as for Yoda being all powerful, again, we need not assume that. Dooku is beaten by Anakin, Yoda runs away from him. Does this mean Anakin is stronger than Yoda? Obi-Wan beats Anakin, does this mean Obi-Wan is stronger than Yoda AND Anakin? (but then Anakin later beats Obi-Wan, so...?) You can go on forever like this. No fighter is all powerful and it's not a strict hierarchy. They all have different strengths and weaknesses, situational benefits/disadvantages, and everyone has a bad day, and their skills vary over time. And factor the force in, and it's not always a given who would win.
Yoda doesn't run away from Dooku - Dooku runs away from Yoda!
And Anakin defeated Obi-Wan having 20 more years of training as a Sith Lord (and a calmer head).
Still, I partially agree with you - although I do believe there is a relatively strict hierarchy in the long run, a certain fight can always be influenced by the situation, the sorroundings, luck (the Force :p) etc. - almost every fight Obi-Wan participates in shows that :D.

Kurgan
09-14-2006, 08:01 AM
The best example would probably be Luke... less than four years of "training" (apparently he trained for a few days at most with Ben and a few weeks at most with Yoda, though the movies makes it seem like only hours in either case since they never sleep or shave, etc) and he's able to beat Vader.

(and I don't buy this "being younger means you win easier" notion because look at how handily Dooku could beat up those young punks).

JediLandon
09-15-2006, 05:12 PM
Darth Sidious had to win if he didn't then episode 4 5 and 6 wouldn't make any sense :sithk:

Windu Chi
09-15-2006, 05:43 PM
Darth Sidious had to win if he didn't then episode 4 5 and 6 wouldn't make any sense :sithk:
Of course he survive! But if the fight happen for real Mace Windu would have kick Darth Sidious and Anakin ass.

Great Scott!
09-15-2006, 05:59 PM
The best example would probably be Luke... less than four years of "training" (apparently he trained for a few days at most with Ben and a few weeks at most with Yoda, though the movies makes it seem like only hours in either case since they never sleep or shave, etc) and he's able to beat Vader.

(and I don't buy this "being younger means you win easier" notion because look at how handily Dooku could beat up those young punks).Last I checked, Luke never won, but Vader sacrificed himself to kill the Emporer.

Of course he survive! But if the fight happen for real Mace Windu would have kick Darth Sidious and Anakin ass....Wha?

Windu Chi
09-15-2006, 05:59 PM
okay, let's imagine for a second Sidious kills Mace and Anakin never shows up. Sidious then exacutes order 66, and ofcourse yodi and obi wan survive, and Anakin goes into hiding. Do you really think Sidious has a snow ball's chance in hell against all three, especially if the wait until Anakin becomes more powereful?

Hell No!

Mace could handle Sidious his self, he would'nt need any help from Obi Wan or Yoda.

PoiuyWired
09-15-2006, 06:47 PM
So many what-ifs. What if one of the "meatshield" Jedis in the incident (say, Kit Fisto) having warn cortosis plates/armor underneath? The fight can be over right then and there.

Its not as improbable as you might think. They know they are dealing with a Sith, and They know about Cortosis, and Vos regularly uses it as a vambrace.

Point, its the will of the force, that things happened at the right/wrong time at the right/wrong place.

Kurgan
09-16-2006, 02:34 AM
They should have just fired upon his office with their Jedi fighters.

Kurgan
09-17-2006, 04:52 PM
Last I checked, Luke never won, but Vader sacrificed himself to kill the Emporer.

...Wha?

Luke fought a saber battle with Vader, and beat him, once he got angry. That's what I was referring to. I don't count it a "victory" only if one opponent was killed by the other.

Dooku beat Obi-Wan, twice.
Dooku beat Anakin.
Dooku tied with Yoda (in early drafts he actually lost).
Anakin beat Dooku.
Palpatine beat Yoda.
Palpatine beat Saesi Tiin, Agen Kolar and Kit Fisto.
Palpatine beat Mace Windu (ultimately, though he lost the saber duel, see the example of Maul vs. Obi-Wan, but this is even less so because neither of them even had a lightsaber at the end).
Obi-Wan beat Vader/Anakin.
Vader/Anakin beat Obi-Wan (though he let himself be killed)
Vader/Anakin beat various no-name Jedi at the temple (shown in holos).
Vader/Anakin beat Luke (though you could argue this one, since they really have two fights in ESB, the first one Luke wins, the second one Vader wins, if you see them as one long fight then Vader clearly wins)
Luke beat Vader/Anakin.
Obi-Wan beat Grievous (a non-force user)
Darth Maul tied with Qui Gon Jinn (their first fight, Jinn ran away).
Darth Maul beat Qui Gon Jinn.
Darth Maul beat Obi-Wan (even though he was killed by him later, the duel was effectively over, you could argue this one)

Kurgan
09-17-2006, 05:34 PM
Yoda doesn't run away from Dooku - Dooku runs away from Yoda!

Whoops, I mistyped that. Of course you're right. He wasn't even losing! His original plan was to run away, but his ego got the better of him, so he stayed to fight the Jedi to show how powerful he was (and finally realized that he couldn't beat Yoda, and they might eventually wear him out and capture him, notice how the troops arrived just seconds after he fled).

YertyL
09-18-2006, 03:43 AM
Palpatine beat Mace Windu (ultimately, though he lost the saber duel, see the example of Maul vs. Obi-Wan, but this is even less so because neither of them even had a lightsaber at the end).
Hey, Palpatine beat Mace after Anakin surprised him and cut his hand off - I'd hardly call that a fair fight. I mean, killing someone is not quite beating someone, and in the fair fight Mace managed to disarm Palpatine and make him whimper like an injured puppy. Would you say that Palpatine "beat" Plagueis (is it spelled that way ...?) by killing him in his sleep?

Great Scott!
09-18-2006, 07:41 AM
Palpatine could've easily killed Mace though, he was just convincing Anakin to help him to more easily turn him to the dark side.

PoiuyWired
09-18-2006, 03:26 PM
Without Ani's help he could try, but the result would probably be quite fatal to him, not that he would have a choice.

It is said that Mace it the greatest combatant of the time, especially when he wears his blingblings.

JawaJoey
09-19-2006, 04:30 AM
I think that Sidious underestimated Mace as a lightsaber combatant, and I'll accept that he genuinely got bested in that regard. However, he definitely made himself look much weaker than he was just before Anakin showed up. Even without a lightsaber, the Sith Lord wouldn't scramble along the floor helplessly then beg for mercy.

Plus, he clearly was holding back with the lightning a bit. IIRC, I think I recall Palpatine mentioning something about UNNLLIMMETTED POOOWWWEEEERRRRRR!!!!!

So as far as the saber duel goes, Mace actually gained the upper hand, but as a whole fight, Mace wouldn't have won. And Palpatine very skillfully manuevered the entire situation to look perfet for Anakin.

Just think of what would have happened if Sidious and Mace's positions ahd been reversed, with with Sidious standing over an unarmed Mace Windu, threatening him with a glowing red saber at his neck. How would that have effeted Anakin I wonder?

YertyL
09-19-2006, 08:53 AM
Palpatine could've easily killed Mace though, he was just convincing Anakin to help him to more easily turn him to the dark side.
This is pretty speculative; I don't know about you, but I'd think that if a person has a lightsaber centimeters away from another person's face, that person can kill the other one pretty fast if he wants to....

Great Scott!
09-19-2006, 04:56 PM
How do you know Palpatine didn't let himself get into a position like that? I mean, look how easily he killed the other three Jedi. Sure, Mace is better, but I don't think Mace could've easily just killed three Jedi the way Palpatine did easily. He definately would've been Palpatine's greatest match, though.

mivoci1
11-09-2006, 02:18 PM
Well my opinion is that Sidious let him win because he sensed Anakin approaching that is why Windu make his last mistake because he turned Anakin's appoitmend as a Jedi Master and in EP I he turned the boy down then he make his first mistake.

mivoci1
11-13-2006, 07:44 PM
Mace Windu used Vaapad style so it is possible that Windu won the fight but do not forget that Sidious killed Jedi with ease my personal opinion is that Sidious let Windu defeat him so he can twist Anakin further down the dark path

marapets
11-22-2006, 09:57 AM
Uhhh, pretty sure he is the chosen one...

Why does everyone think Mace Windu is some super-natural all-powerful being?

well he is supposed to be a jedi master

Prime
11-22-2006, 10:34 AM
So are a lot of other Jedi...

ferris209
11-23-2006, 06:45 PM
I still believe that Mace won fair and square, everyone knows that Mace was one of the baddest dudes in the order. I think that he was the only Jedi who was capable of fighting Sidious, mostly becuase of his Vaapad style and his natural dark side traits.

Henz
01-06-2007, 06:04 PM
I think that Sidious underestimated Mace as a lightsaber combatant, and I'll accept that he genuinely got bested in that regard. However, he definitely made himself look much weaker than he was just before Anakin showed up. Even without a lightsaber, the Sith Lord wouldn't scramble along the floor helplessly then beg for mercy.

Plus, he clearly was holding back with the lightning a bit. IIRC, I think I recall Palpatine mentioning something about UNNLLIMMETTED POOOWWWEEEERRRRRR!!!!!

So as far as the saber duel goes, Mace actually gained the upper hand, but as a whole fight, Mace wouldn't have won . And Palpatine very skillfully manuevered the entire situation to look perfet for Anakin.

Just think of what would have happened if Sidious and Mace's positions ahd been reversed, with with Sidious standing over an unarmed Mace Windu, threatening him with a glowing red saber at his neck. How would that have effeted Anakin I wonder?

I agree with everything you said except for that line. I think Mace clearly won; only Anakin's intervention saved Palpy.

Windu Chi
01-06-2007, 11:32 PM
Mace Windu used Vaapad style so it is possible that Windu won the fight but do not forget that Sidious killed Jedi with ease my personal opinion is that Sidious let Windu defeat him so he can twist Anakin further down the dark path
Yeah whatever, mivoci1! :lol:
Mace Windu whip that coward ass, Sidious.
And if he didn't trust that weak punk, Anakin, he would've whip Anakin ass, too.

darth kav
01-07-2007, 11:06 AM
Yeah whatever, mivoci1! :lol:
Mace Windu whip that coward ass, Sidious.
And if he didn't trust that weak punk, Anakin, he would've whip Anakin ass, too.

mace would not stand a chance against ankakin when he's darth vader any way back to the point sidious let mace defeat him so anikan would full turn to the dark side and after ani cuts mace hand off sidious pushs mace away with powerful thunder bolt and for some one who is weak could not do that.

Windu Chi
01-07-2007, 12:34 PM
mace would not stand a chance against ankakin when he's darth vader any way back to the point sidious let mace defeat him so anikan would full turn to the dark side and after ani cuts mace hand off sidious pushs mace away with powerful thunder bolt and for some one who is weak could not do that.Yeah, whatever! :lol:
Believe that if you must.
Mace would've kick both Anakin and Sidious ass if it was no movie.
Sidious is weak and a coward; if he could had defeated Mace he would've and not whine like a punk for Anakin's help.
Sidious got his ass kicked, no question.
Anakin flashy fighting style is no match for Mace Windu's quick and deadly lightsaber strikes.
And Darth Vader, well we don't know that for sure.
But by playing the Ep. III: ROTS video game and looking at Vader fighting style,
Mace would have kick his ass as Vader I bet, with his quick and deadly fighting style in that game. :lsduel:

darth kav
01-07-2007, 01:18 PM
Yeah, whatever! :lol:
Believe that if you must.
Mace would've kick both Anakin and Sidious ass if it was no movie.
Sidious is weak and a coward; if he could had defeated Mace he would've and not whine like a punk for Anakin's help.
Sidious got his ass kicked, no question.
Anakin flashy fighting style is no match for Mace Windu's quick and deadly lightsaber strikes.
And Darth Vader, well we don't know that for sure.
But by playing the Ep. III: ROTS video game and looking at Vader fighting style,
Mace would have kick his ass as Vader I bet, with his quick and deadly fighting style in that game. :lsduel:

yer but in the video game vader's blows are powerful and deadlly but slow but mace's are a bit faster and a lot weaker so vader will kick his ass.

and anakins are to fast for a old timer like mace it proven in the film he slice's mace hand off before he can even moves

Windu Chi
01-07-2007, 01:47 PM
yer but in the video game vader's blows are powerful and deadlly but slow but mace's are a bit faster and a lot weaker so vader will kick his ass. The slow blows of Vader, works to Mace's advantage in combat; Mace has the quickest slash strikes that are also very powerful.
But that was in the game, but the quick slash with a hot lightsaber would quickly had ended Vader if it was for real.
Vader strikes takes to long, Mace would've quickly dispense with him in that time.
and anakins are to fast for a old timer like mace it proven in the film he slice's mace hand off before he can even moves
That is because, Mace had put to much trust in Anakin, he knew Anakin had conflicting feelings that later lead him to the darkside, but Mace decided to trust him, he didn't expect Anakin would betray him in that scene.

Also that was meant to happen anyway, everybody knew who is a Star Wars fan that Mace was going to loose anyway, when that scene arrived.
But if Mace was given a fair chance, he would've quickly dispatch Anakin, Anakin's over confidence also, would've quickly done him in.

MachineCult
01-07-2007, 02:04 PM
I completely agree, windu6, Mace beat Sidious fair and square and if he had seen Anakins attack coming he would have beaten him as well.

Vaelastraz
01-14-2007, 12:41 PM
I don't know about that Mace vs Sidious duel...
To me they seemed equal. I don't know who would have won if Anakin had not intervened but I believe when Palpatine sensed Anakin coming, he deliberatly "lost" the duel. I don't claim he would have won otherwise, but especially that scene where Palpatine rolls around on the floor, totally helpless, makes me think he lost on purpose, to twist Anakin to the dark side.

Oh, and Anakin would not stand a chance in single combat against either Sidious or Mace.

Rabish Bini
01-14-2007, 09:57 PM
I'm pretty sure Sidious could kick Mace's @$$. Think about it, if Yoda couldn't defeat him, Mace definately couldn't.

TK-8252
01-14-2007, 10:23 PM
I'm pretty sure Sidious could kick Mace's @$$. Think about it, if Yoda couldn't defeat him, Mace definately couldn't.

Yoda's spirit was broken. Hard to use that as a comparison.

Windu Chi
01-14-2007, 11:48 PM
I'm pretty sure Sidious could kick Mace's @$$. Think about it, if Yoda couldn't defeat him, Mace definately couldn't.
You're sadly mistaken!

Emperor Devon
01-15-2007, 03:00 AM
Heh, hardly any room for debate. Sidious was the stronger one by far. :)

It seemed like a very strange coincidence that he lost his lightsaber at that time. The perfect time, in fact, for Anakin to come in. No, he decided that should happen. Seems quite strange that he would whine about being too weak to do anything one second, and then be able to blast someone out a window with Force lightning the next.

Everything seemed far too coincidental to have happened by chance.

Windu Chi
01-15-2007, 03:41 AM
Heh, hardly any room for debate. Sidious was the stronger one by far. :)

It seemed like a very strange coincidence that he lost his lightsaber at that time. The perfect time, in fact, for Anakin to come in. No, he decided that should happen. Seems quite strange that he would whine about being too weak to do anything one second, and then be able to blast someone out a window with Force lightning the next.

Everything seemed far too coincidental to have happened by chance.
Well, of course you are going to cheer for Sidious, I mean look at your avatar.
No question who's your fan, Devon. :)

Rabish Bini
01-15-2007, 06:18 AM
Sidious would still kick Mace's @$$. Sidious id the perfect epitamy of the Dark Side, just like Yoda is for the Light Side. If you can tell me how Mace would win, i would eat my words, literally.

And look at you Windu6. Mace is in you avy/sig. It's no wonder you're rooting for Mace.

And another thing, why do most people think Mace is the most powerful Jedi, what about Yoda? I'm pretty certain Yoda would pwn Mace.

Windu Chi
01-15-2007, 01:50 PM
Sidious would still kick Mace's @$$. Sidious id the perfect epitamy of the Dark Side, just like Yoda is for the Light Side. If you can tell me how Mace would win, i would eat my words, literally.
I was basing my assertion on Mace fighting style in the Ep. III game, but since Sidious wasn't available in that game, of course I can't truly compare them yet, until I can play a Jedi game where you can fight with Sidious.But, Mace Windu's Vaapad Jedi fighting form is so deadly and quick I think if he was given a fair chance he would have properly defeated Darth Sidious.
Do anybody know Darth Sidious Jedi fighting form?

And look at you Windu6. Mace is in you avy/sig. It's no wonder you're rooting for Mace. Yeah, you got me there.

And another thing, why do most people think Mace is the most powerful Jedi, what about Yoda? I'm pretty certain Yoda would pwn Mace.
Well, base on the Clone Wars cartoon with Yoda the power Yoda show with him lifting and destroying droid landing ships on Coruscant, one would say he can kick Mace Windu ass.

Sir Phobos
01-16-2007, 01:21 AM
Fluke or fair fight?

More like a poorly done scene but my in-universe opinion tells me that it was a fair fight and Sidious lost.

But I also think of course that Sidious meant to lose, feeling that Anakin was coming closer, who knows... from the scene... I really can't tell what his motives are.

I mean if he kills Mace Windu... then what?

Henz
01-17-2007, 04:13 PM
I mean if he kills Mace Windu... then what?
Tell ani they attacked him? I don't think he got a chance to think on that as mostly he'd be trying to kill him to stay alive...

HK-42
01-19-2007, 07:17 PM
Well Sidious could have easily killed him if he was SMART.

Rabish Bini
01-20-2007, 10:44 PM
^exactly, If Mace and Sidious were put in a fight to the death, no interruptions and they both were aware of the other person's abilities, I think Sidious would win.
So I think Sidious let him win.

Vaelastraz
01-21-2007, 04:50 AM
I was basing my assertion on Mace fighting style in the Ep. III game, but since Sidious wasn't available in that game, of course I can't truly compare them yet, until I can play a Jedi game where you can fight with Sidious.But, Mace Windu's Vaapad Jedi fighting form is so deadly and quick I think if he was given a fair chance he would have properly defeated Darth Sidious.
Do anybody know Darth Sidious Jedi fighting form?


Well, base on the Clone Wars cartoon with Yoda the power Yoda show with him lifting and destroying droid landing ships on Coruscant, one would say he can kick Mace Windu ass.

I don't think you should base your assumptions on anything other than Episode 3...
You can't base anything on game mechanics. And the clone wars cartoon... aren't all Jedi there like 100 times stronger than in the movies ?

Windu Chi
01-21-2007, 06:05 AM
I don't think you should base your assumptions on anything other than Episode 3...
You can't base anything on game mechanics.
The game mechanics in the Episode 3 game match and surpass the combat mechanics in the Episode 3 movie.
The combat in that game match the realistic combat in the movie so well I think it is a very good trustworthy source for comparing combat skills of some of the Jedi(like Mace Windu) in Episode III: ROTS movie.
And the clone wars cartoon... aren't all Jedi there like 100 times stronger than in the movies ?Yeah, but the Star Wars EU don't ignore the clone wars cartoon; it accept it as connected to the rest of the EU. :)

Dunedain
10-03-2007, 04:30 PM
Well, even if Palpatine was somewhat exaggerating the extent of his injuries, which he probably was, he had definitely been messed up by having all that force lightning deflected back into him. But either way, Mace Windu had already won the fight fair and square, Palpatine was down and he was about to finish him off. If not for Anakin showing up and letting the lies of Palpatine, his erratic emotions and the dark side cloud his judgment, Palpatine would have been finished right there.

Rev7
10-03-2007, 07:10 PM
I think that Mace won the fight. Sidious weakened himself to manipulate Anakin; however, we don't know what would have happened if Sidious was fighting his hardest. Personaaly I think that Mace would have won by a long shot! Mace is one of the best in the entire order for crying out loud!

TripHammer
10-05-2007, 07:54 PM
How much damage does this blue lightening do anyway? Vader takes a face shot before he tosses the emperor... light sabers can block it as exhibited in the emperor/Windu duel. It obviously was enough to finish off Vader... Luke could take a certain amount of it, I guess. Unless you're thinking is that the emperor was taking it easy on luke.

I think Windu could indeed take the emperor. It seems to me I remember a story about Mace having not only Jedi training, but Sith training as well. Don't get all over my case because I can't remember where I got the story.. But I do remember talking about it one time. It might be in the books somewhere.. or it might be some idiot sprouting crap on some forum... but the discussion was something along the lines of Mace's light saber color... and how it's purple, red and blue, or Jedi and sith Kaiburr crystal colors... blah, blah, blah. I think the story follows this thinking well. I think his Sith Training would have convinced him that the courts would only work in Palpatine's favor.. and killing him then was the answer, irregardless of Jedi training. I think Windu is more powerful then the movies let on. And I'm no fan of Windu... Well.. let me rephrase that.. Maybe not so much Windu.. as Samuel Jackson's acting in the part.

:lightning

Rev7
10-05-2007, 08:28 PM
I don't think the lightning "hurt" Luke so much, was because of the special affects at the time the movie was shot. Maybe I am missing something, but that was my guess...

garm_bel_iblis
10-06-2007, 06:52 AM
I've always imagined that the devastation and pain brought on by Force lightning was determined by who's controlling it. For example, Sidious was torturing Luke in Episode VI, kind of playing with his food before he eats it, so he was allowing Luke to live. When he blasts Yoda with it 20 or so years previously, however, he intentionally wants to catch him off guard and knock the "arrogant" little sucker right off his feet, but not necessarily torture him into submission (probably because Yoda would eventually blast him backwards). When Sidious electrocutes Mace, that's the death blast, what you really get when Sidious wants to kill you. That was especially horrific (especially for Star Wars) because when he has his hands chopped off the audience kind of says, "Oh man, he's dead, no absorbing it this time." One of the best scenes.

As far as lightsaber combat though I think Mace had Sidious owned, but as soon as Anakin shows up Sidious know he's fine.

Dunedain
10-06-2007, 12:33 PM
As far as Mace Windu's conduct near the end of the duel, I think he was acting properly. It is true that normally once opponents are clearly defeated that the Jedi would spare the lives of these opponents (for the moment) and the Jedi would then turn the criminals over to the normal Republic civil authorities for trial for their crimes.

But this was a special circumstance. Palpatine had some officials in his pocket, either directly or through his alter ego as Sidious, he had corrupted some parts of the senate and had a certain degree of control over the courts, as well, so that he could effectively corrupt the judicial process. Meaning there was no way to be sure he would be convicted if he went to trial, even though he was guilty as sin. Not to mention the risk that he would use his henchmen to escape from prison before his trial could begin and flee from Coruscant only to go on with his efforts to destabilize the Republic from afar. Or run back to the Chancelor's office, trying to take back control of the Republic, all the while claiming that it was all some plot by the Jedi to take control of the government.

Under those circumstances, considering the number of people that Palpatine had murdered in the war he caused, the fact that he was the sith lord they had been searching for all this time and they finally had him, and that there was a very real possibility that he would escape justice yet again if he were turned over for trial due to his corruption and control of the government, Mace Windu had little choice but to kill him right there. Sometimes it is simply necessary to take swift and decisive action to defeat evil, and this was one of those times when it was necessary to do that. It's a shame, really, the whole thing could have been over with right there. Palpatine's identity as the sith lord and his evil plans fully exposed, his corrupt henchmen dealt with, the war over and the Republic restored to peace, but for Anakin's weakness in resisting the dark side. But eventually, after a long struggle for 20 years, good did triumph over evil. :)

Rev7
10-10-2007, 01:47 AM
I've always imagined that the devastation and pain brought on by Force lightning was determined by who's controlling it. For example, Sidious was torturing Luke in Episode VI, kind of playing with his food before he eats it, so he was allowing Luke to live. When he blasts Yoda with it 20 or so years previously, however, he intentionally wants to catch him off guard and knock the "arrogant" little sucker right off his feet, but not necessarily torture him into submission (probably because Yoda would eventually blast him backwards). When Sidious electrocutes Mace, that's the death blast, what you really get when Sidious wants to kill you. That was especially horrific (especially for Star Wars) because when he has his hands chopped off the audience kind of says, "Oh man, he's dead, no absorbing it this time." One of the best scenes.

As far as lightsaber combat though I think Mace had Sidious owned, but as soon as Anakin shows up Sidious know he's fine.
Very well thought out! :)
@Dunedain-- Regardless it isn't the "jedi-way" to kill unarmed oppenents. Sidious was unarmed; therefore, Mace was actually, by my opinion, treading on the darkside by wanting to "end the sith oppression once and for all". He was put in a very difficult situation. If I where mace I personally don't know what I would do. The choice was end Sidious's life and go to the darkside, or let Sidious stand trail (or possibly lose your own life) and stay on the lightside. That is in my opinion a very hard choice to make.

adamqd
10-10-2007, 03:44 AM
I wouldn't call someone who could use force lightning (especially to the degree Sidious could) Unarmed. Mace should have foreseen Anakins betrayal, and killed them both

TripHammer
10-10-2007, 04:59 PM
Mace should have foreseen Anakins betrayal, and killed them both

Indeed. Mace didn't trust Anakin... which is why he told him to stay at the temple... so perhaps Mace did see a betrayal in Anakin's nature... or perhaps he sensed enough confusion from Anakin to take the precaution of telling him to stay behind. Either way... as soon as Anakin showed up he became a danger and proved to Mace that indeed he couldn't be trusted. He should have been a target from that point on. But I don't think Mace would have been able to take Anakin. It would have been an interesting duel though.

PoiuyWired
10-11-2007, 07:54 AM
Well, it doesn't matter really... If Mace did kill palpy he would be turned darkside... Well he would still take over the senate as the savior, and Yoda would have a really hard time beating him, if even possable.

Anakin would certainly join him.

The difference being there are more Jedis left in the way. So instead of a smooth transition to the Empire we get a total civilwar.

Dunedain
10-23-2007, 10:07 PM
What in the world makes you think Mace Windu would have gone over to the dark side if he killed Palpatine? Jedi are supposed to kill sith lords (or others who go around mass murdering innocent people), that's the point of the duel if the sith refuses to surrender. For the reasons stated in my post above, the courts simply could not be trusted to convict and punish Palpatine for his crimes, and he certainly couldn't be allowed to escape to murder even more people. Therefore he had to be killed to stop him. Mace Windu didn't really have much choice under the circumstances.

DarthSeverus
10-24-2007, 02:37 PM
Except that Sidious made it at least look like he was begging for his life ('please don't kill me!' or something like that) so that counts as surrending to me (as far as it looked to Anakin and Mace), so I'm afraid Mace was about to commit murder (of an evil Sith Lord mabye but murder none the less).

What was more interesting to me about Sidious mapiulations was how he made the situation parallel the situation with Anakin's earlier killing of Dooku where just after Anakin decapitates Dooku he says 'I shouldn't have done that, it's not the Jedi way,' where Palpy/Sidious assures him it was the right thing to do because Dooku was to dangerous to be left alive, and then when Mace is about to kill Sidious Anakin again says something like, 'you can't kill him, it isn't the Jedi way,' and Mace responds something along the lines of, 'he's to dangerous to be left alive,' and in doing that destroyed Anakin's last thread of faith in the truth of the Jedi code as being right and any better than the Sith that had been holding Anakin back from coming to Sidious's aid in the Mace/Sidious battle. After that he believed Sidious's lies and manipulations about the Jedi completely as he says to Obi later, 'to me the Jedi are evil!'. So I wonder if Sidious forsaw some of these events and diliberately said what he said to Anakin aboard the Invisible Hand just after Anakin's duel with Dooku because he forsaw what Mace would do and say, and saw how it would play in turning Anakin.

TripHammer
10-24-2007, 02:54 PM
Interesting thoughts there. Nice parallel you draw DarthSeverus...

Dunedain
10-29-2007, 04:50 PM
Yeah, but the problem is that in this particular case Darth Sidious also happened to be the *Chancellor of the Republic*. Under normal circumstances the Jedi could have turned over a sith lord they had captured to the Republic authorities for trial and punishment. But this was *not* a normal circumstance. He had corrupted the courts and government in general to the point that they couldn't even be trusted to hold him in prison and punish him for his crimes. Mace Windu obviously couldn't let him escape to go on murdering more people, or attempt to forcibly regain direct control of the government. He had to be stopped, and if the government could no longer be trusted to do it, then the Jedi would have to do it themselves. To save the Republic and save the lives of more innocent people who would otherwise be killed, Palpatine had to be stopped right there.

DarthSeverus
10-30-2007, 07:19 AM
I see your point, but I think that Jedi are there as exmplars of justice, if they start becoming judge, jury and executionor (particular when, at least to the Jedi in question the fight is over and the Sith is begging for his/her life) to the kill them means that Jedi has lost their way somewhat. After all, if the Jedi go around deciding when they should uphold justice or should just take it into their own hands as they see fit, I would say they are already on the path to being in some ways little different to the Sith, arbitarily deciding the fates of all beings lives based on their personal desires.

Druganator
06-12-2008, 02:40 PM
if you read the books it tells you how mace windu actually fought and it was something along the lines of him throwing his arms forward really fast and very repetitive but kinov randomly so he would hold his lightsaber and switch it between his hands and kinda throw himself forward at the guy with a ferocity unlike what they showed in the moves cuz the wanted better camera angles

LordSerion
06-29-2008, 04:54 PM
Fake fight all right. Considering how easily Sidious slaughtered the other 3 council members, he could have killed Windu just as easily. He had the chance to stab him right through his chest, but he didn't do that.
DarthSeverus: he could see the future (Yoda said in Ep. II that only those who turn to the dark side could see the future if the darkness grew), so it is a very strong possibility that he said those lines on purpose.

MeleeMaster
07-10-2008, 10:33 PM
It wasn't really the jedi way for Mace Windu to just decide to kill Palpatine on the spot, but technically he probably knew that if he didn't and decided to stop as soon as he backed off, turned his back, turned off his lightsaber, or shifted his focus from Palpatine for a split second, Palpatine would just force lightning him out the window anyway like he did when Anakin intervened after Mace Windu went in for the final blow.

Relenzo2
07-11-2008, 03:24 PM
But this was a special circumstance. Palpatine had all the officials in his pocket, either directly or through his alter ego as Sidious, he had corrupted some parts of the senate and had a certain degree of control over the courts, as well, so that he could effectively corrupt the judicial process.


Fixed. Obviously, Mace or anybody else didn't stand a "snowball's chance in hell" as was used erlier, of being fairly convicted. Mace had no choice, but this shows Sideous's talents and where they lie. He managed to singel-handedly cloud the visions of the Jedi Council, and sway the entire Republic, but he was NOT actually much of a fighter. Mace, on the other hand... wel, Vapaad. Think about it. Combat-wise, he is second only to Yoda. Palpy knew the most powerful Jedi would escape Order 66, so he knew he needed Anikin as a bodyguard, just to have a combat-oriented Jedi, as he didn't know Anny would get burned. If Obi-Wan hadn't beat him on Mustafar, he would have been able to hunt down Yoda and everyone else over lunch in the Imperial era.
As was officially clarified, Mace did fairly beat Palpy. But once Anikin showed, I think that, and I cannot believe the words are coming out 'o me fingers, that Palpy-improvised. He HUGELY exaggerated the sliding and whimpering. Those who say his ego was too big to let himself get beat any worse than possible, he didn't seem too concerned about what happened to his face, did he?

Maphisto86
07-11-2008, 04:04 PM
Fixed. Obviously, Mace or anybody else didn't stand a "snowball's chance in hell" as was used erlier, of being fairly convicted. Mace had no choice, but this shows Sideous's talents and where they lie. He managed to singel-handedly cloud the visions of the Jedi Council, and sway the entire Republic, but he was NOT actually much of a fighter. Mace, on the other hand... wel, Vapaad. Think about it. Combat-wise, he is second only to Yoda. Palpy knew the most powerful Jedi would escape Order 66, so he knew he needed Anikin as a bodyguard, just to have a combat-oriented Jedi, as he didn't know Anny would get burned. If Obi-Wan hadn't beat him on Mustafar, he would have been able to hunt down Yoda and everyone else over lunch in the Imperial era.

Until recently I thought Palpatine just threw the fight because he sensed what he hoped would happen, that Anakin would come to join the confrontation. By being in a weaker position, he could lull Anakin into seeing the Jedi in a aggressive and negative light. However, think now that maybe Mace Windu had Palpatine on the defensive by the end and managed to beat him.

I like you thoughts on this subject Relenzo. Could I ask though where it has been officially confirmed that Windu was the victor in the film? I didn't know there was an canon view of the subject. The fight in the Chancellor's chambers in Ep.III was one of the few things I found confusing about the story. For one thing two of Mace Windu's Jedi comrades, Saesee Tiin and Agen Kolar, where easily struck down by Palpatine, almost without moving. Also, what about Palpatine's almost equal confrontation with Yoda? The Sith Lord's strength and level of mastery of lightsaber combat is between the very good and the excellent in any case, but it is still hard to define.

M@RS
07-11-2008, 06:13 PM
The problem with that fight is that, Mace Windu was second to Yoda in lightsaber combat, but he defeated Palpatine in a duel, but Palpatine beat Yoda in a duel...What's up with that?!

Astor
07-11-2008, 06:22 PM
The problem with that fight is that, Mace Windu was second to Yoda in lightsaber combat, but he defeated Palpatine in a duel, but Palpatine beat Yoda in a duel...What's up with that?!

You have to remember, Yoda and Mace were the top two lightsaber duelists in the Jedi Order, not necessarily the universe.

M@RS
07-11-2008, 06:33 PM
Yes...but Mace wasn't as good as Yoda, but Yoda was beat by the same person who had been beat by Mace...

Astor
07-11-2008, 06:35 PM
Yes...but Mace wasn't as good as Yoda, but Yoda was beat by the same person who had been beat by Mace...

That could be because Sidious had foreseen this event, and knew that he would get a new apprentice out of it. He probably played down his ability to allow Windu to gain the upper hand, so that he could manipulate Anakin into helping finish old baldy off.

M@RS
07-11-2008, 07:47 PM
:lol: True, I can see how that makes sense...I'll go with that, it makes total sense to me ;)

Astor
07-12-2008, 03:52 AM
Only once Anakin had attacked Windu did Sidious reveal the true extent of his power - it had been a feint all along. Had he been in as bad a shape as he looked, Windu would have killed him. And, as soon as Anakin attacked Windu, he unleashed his rage, which saw Windu off for good (and please, Windu fanboys, don't start spouting theories that he's still alive).

Now, when he fought Yoda, I believe that was Sidious at his full potential, and he was just about a match for Yoda, both in saber combat and force ability, and neither held back - there was no reason to. The fate of the galaxy was going to be decided there and then. Had Yoda won, the Republic would have been saved - Vader would be no match for the Grand Master of the Order.

Vader may have assaulted the Jedi Temple, and killed many, but he had two things in his favor there:

1. He had a legion of stormtroopers with him

2. Most of the Jedi in the temple were Padawans, as most of the Knights and Masters were fighting the war. They would have been no match for a battle hardened Jedi Knight who had slain a Sith Lord.

And the reason Vader was so easily able to defeat the Order's battle master, Cin Drallig, was because, if you look in the security recording, he was using Drallig's apprentice as a shield, forcing Drallig to hold back, rather than harm his padawan.

I kind of went off on a tangent there... but oh well :)

TKA-001
07-12-2008, 02:40 PM
Most of the Jedi in the temple were Padawans, as most of the Knights and Masters were fighting the war.
Source?

Astor
07-12-2008, 03:03 PM
Source?

Okay, i'll admit, i'm making an assumption on that point, but it's the only explanation I have for Anakin 'I-wannabe-a-sith-too' Skywalker actually succeeding in the assault.

TKA-001
07-12-2008, 03:36 PM
I'm not sure I can see what disadvantage you seem to be trying to imply that he would have in the attack.

Astor
07-12-2008, 03:53 PM
You're right. I guess I am being a bit too hard on Vader. He was the chosen one after all.

Great Scott!
07-12-2008, 04:45 PM
Uhhh, pretty sure he is the chosen one...

Why does everyone think Mace Windu is some super-natural all-powerful being?OMG, I posted this two years ago. How is this discussion still going on!?! :lol:

Astor
07-12-2008, 05:03 PM
OMG, I posted this two years ago. How is this discussion still going on!?! :lol:

Someone revived it, so we thought it was time to maybe discuss it again. :lol:

As to your question about Windu's percieved invincibility, you should hear some of the crackpot theories that he SURVIVED that fight, the lightning, and the 100 story fall into the depths of the planet.

It's really this simple - while he may not have outclassed him, Sidious had him on the backfoot right from the start. The sudden ferocity of his attack, and the fact he easily took down two master with as many strikes, must have had an effect on Windu. That, and I think Windu was overconfident - he expected to easily deal with the chancellor. That, and he trusted Anakin - by the time he realised he couldn't it was too late.

Relenzo2
07-12-2008, 05:09 PM
OMG, I posted this two years ago. How is this discussion still going on!?! :lol:


^^ Through the power of the force.

The problem with that fight is that, Mace Windu was second to Yoda in lightsaber combat, but he defeated Palpatine in a duel, but Palpatine beat Yoda in a duel...What's up with that?!

You assume that there is a strict heirarchy, and one Jedi is worse than all the people who can beat the people who can beat him. Not quite so, as was said.



I like you thoughts on this subject Relenzo. Could I ask though where it has been officially confirmed that Windu was the victor in the film? I didn't know there was an canon view of the subject.

I didn't read it myself, but it was mentioned by a number of annoyed people erlier in the thread. I think there is a link on one of the first two pages, to "George's words" on the subject. And of course, whatever George says is canon #1.

Astor
07-12-2008, 05:12 PM
And of course, whatever George says is canon #1.

Don't say that! You'll upset all the JarJar/ewok haters :lol:

Rev7
07-12-2008, 07:43 PM
It was all just a manipulation game set up by Darth Sidious. To make it look like Mace was just trying to kill him. I think that it was a fluke all of the way, on Sidious's part. Mace beat Sidious, but Anakin betrayed him, and Sidious killed him. Simple. It was a manipulation game that Sidious was playing.

Relenzo2
07-16-2008, 02:48 PM
Don't say that! You'll upset all the JarJar/ewok haters :lol:

Bullhonkey to the JarJar/Ewok haters. I've battle with them on the feild of the forum many times and I'm sure they're very upset already.

Astor
07-16-2008, 03:19 PM
Bullhonkey to the JarJar/Ewok haters. I've battle with them on the feild of the forum many times and I'm sure they're very upset already.

Oh, i'm in complete agreement with you as to George's word being law. I've said it many times myself.

And it's only *one* Gungan who gives them a bad name (but not in my opinion I hate Darth Maul more than I do Jar Jar)

And I don't get what's wrong with Ewoks either. I don't think they were in the films to be 'cute' - but to show that you shouldn't underestimate someone based on size and intelligence.

Relenzo2
07-17-2008, 08:32 PM
Tank you. Out of curiosity... what did Darth Maul do to you?

TKA-001
07-17-2008, 09:13 PM
but to show that you shouldn't underestimate someone based on size and intelligence
...and that filmmakers can get away with overestimating someone despite their size and intelligence.

The Dark Lord
03-07-2009, 04:12 AM
ive only read about half of this but in my opinion mace and emperour fought fair but even when the emperor was knocked down he still could of won. When mace windu was blocking his lightening and the emperor said he was to weak - he was not he could of kept that lighteining going for about another minute before it would do ant serious damage to him. On the other hand if anakin never showed up mace would of won if he could reflect the lightening long enough.


Also i agree with thingy his death was abit boring i was exspecting a splat or at least some sign that he was actually dead.

Visas
11-03-2009, 09:04 AM
Isn't Mace Windu supposed to be 'all powerful' as well?

noizer
11-24-2009, 01:42 PM
Yes...but Mace wasn't as good as Yoda, but Yoda was beat by the same person who had been beat by Mace...

even in real life... a fighter can win a fight against a better opponent lets say 2 out of 10 times.

so while sidious may be the stronger fighter he can lose from time to time against a lesser opponent.

also style make fights. i happen to be a HUGE mixed martial arts fan ( ufc anyone? :D ) a certain skillset can be dominant against a certain opponent but another opponent has a awnser for that skillset so he can nullify it.

maybe this could be the case... yes yoda is the better fighter overall but mace posesses a style that is hard to figure out for sidious.


that said i do think sidious let himself get beaten to turn anikin to the darkside.

PoiuyWired
11-24-2009, 02:25 PM
What I see is, Sidious is more focused in force skills to start with, so it is not impossable if he would lose to a saber master, especially one that lingers close to the edge of the darkside on top of his light side skills. Its a matter of combat style, really. The fight starts well within saber range... so Mace got the upper hand there, even if its only a bit.

And, supposely Sidious IS beaten and killed by Mace, its still a win for the darkside. Mace killing Sidious right in front of Anakin would basically shift Mace to the darkside, eventually if not immediately.

H. McGinnis
11-27-2009, 02:00 PM
Yes, Yoda would say "Age matters not"

but thats beside the point, Mace was getting up there in years just like Palpatine

but I believe Palpy let Mace win JUST so he could get Anakin over to his side AKA the dark side

so by letting Mace win, Mace goes in for the kill but Anakin stops him and kills him becuase he starts looking at Palpatine as a source of power to save Padme which i presume overcomes his love of the Jedi

Gerevick
01-28-2011, 04:48 AM
My opinion is that Sidious wanted Windu to win. He raised his guard at exactly the wrong time to let Windu deliver the finishing attack. Windu did not use any complex tactics to defeat him. He merely hit him in a spot that and would have invariably stunned anyone struck by the move. Sidious wanted Windu to incapacitate him so he could beg in the corner for Anakin to see. The image of an old man being molested by a supposed ally was a crafty way to play on Anakin´s humility. Sidious sensed Anakin was coming. He decided to improvise a strategy, not certain that Anakin would have come to his aid of his own free will.

mfinnie
04-13-2011, 08:19 PM
Fair, look at that n00b cower when he kicks his saber away XD, the only way palpatine won was his cleverness to trick anakin over so many years =/

Klw
05-25-2011, 03:44 PM
Either way, Sidious won the fight. So Mace never actually "beat" him. It is more correct to say that Mace gained the advantage and then lost it.

It has always been my opinion that Sidious did throw the fight. It's his signature move. He did it against Galen Marek, for instance. He let Starkiller pound him and then right when Starkiller put his lightsaber down, he popped up like a jack-in-the-box and killed him easily.

He tried the same trick on Luke, but it didn't work.

If there is an official canon source that explicitly states that Palpatine in fact was defeated fair and square by Windu, please give me a link.

Fredi
06-10-2011, 11:48 AM
My point of view is that Mace won the lightsaber duel, it just happens that Sidious was able to turn the tables when Anakin arrived at the room. He manipulated the situation and took control of it, turned Anakin against the Jedi and took the chance he had to finish off Mace.

Klw
06-10-2011, 11:10 PM
Sidious purposely told Anakin that he was a Sith lord. Considering the level of planning that goes into everything he does, do you really think that he would risk his life on something like that? He was obviously either expecting or at least allowing for the possibility of a confrontation and must have had little to no doubt whatsoever that he would survive it. Otherwise he wouldn't have told Anakin anything. My guess is that he knew that he couldn't possibly sack the Jedi Temple unless Windu and the other high-ranking masters there were taken out first.

Sidious never puts himself in a compromised position. In ROTJ he had troops waiting for the Rebels at the bunker and had Death Star 2's main cannon ready to fire the whole time. Sure he was killed by Vader, but that is one thing that he really couldn't have planned for if you ask me. Now Mace defeating him in a duel that he purposely set up? That can be planned for.

SmootheOperator
06-14-2011, 11:51 PM
maybe it was planned for Mace and Sidious to duel it out "mano-e-mano" in the end, but the way sidious was almost taken out, i'm leaning towards the idea that if anakin hadn't have distracted mace, sidious would have been done in.

Sure sidious took out the other Jedi that came after him, but if the duel were to have happened without Anakin interrupting it, Mace would have come out on top. It wasn't until Sidious had Anakin come to his aid, did sidious actually have the upper hand on mace, but, all it took was one lapse in concentration for things to go horribly wrong for mr. windu, and the galaxy to descend into darkness.

Klw
06-15-2011, 12:56 AM
Even if Mace would have killed him, do you think that Sidious was still planning on having Anakin rescue him?

Sun Tzu said that "Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win." Palpatine has always followed this rule no matter what. Therefore, I just cannot accept that Mace ever had a chance in this duel because if he had a chance, Palpatine wouldn't have invited him over.

iwasreven
06-16-2011, 01:51 PM
wow
that will be to cool but ittl be better if it was reven vs windu

Gerevick
06-27-2011, 10:58 AM
wow
that will be to cool but ittl be better if it was reven vs windu

Which version of Revan are you referring to, male or female?

I would personally like to see the female version of Revan fight Windu. The differences in strength and speed would make an interesting duel.

Bushy162
08-04-2011, 06:01 PM
I've heard that sidious is scared of heights, and that's the reason he didn't woop maces arse. Also, as has been stated, he wanted to make anakin choose as to whether to join the dark side or not. If he had killed Mace before anakin arrived, anakin might have seen the evil and destroy it.

Antares Navaar
01-29-2012, 02:38 AM
It is extremely difficult to say for certain. I can easily contradict any answer I give, but I will try to give as good an answer as I am able.

To begin with, Windu is an extremely spectacular jedi, being one of only two to carry the high jedi general rank, and inventing his own brilliant style. My assumption straight off is that Windu was the only one able to resist Sidious's force shout, being quicker and perhaps more skilled than his companions, thus he was able to stay alive longer.

The area of which the duel takes place also seemed to be in Windu's favor, because Sidious gives me the impression of being more of a force user. I do remember that he did well to keep distance from Yoda in their duel if he could, and he only gained the upper hand when he did so.

So really, a part of me thinks Windu was able to overcome Sidious here, because of where his strengths come into play and where they are coming into play at. But then I can easily argue that it fits together all too perfectly. Sidiou's plan was obviously for some sort of fight to happen there. He knew that Anakin wouldn't so easily convert merely because he revealed himself to him at a time of distress. No, he had to fit the key perfectly.

So I think he did mean for the duel to happen. I also think that, while he may have wanted Anakin to come in at a point where Sidious was still locked in combat, he didn't particularly want to go so far.

Then I come to ask myself, wouldn't he be wiser than to throw a volley off lightning at Windu, who still has his saber up? Did he deliberately do this, to put himself on the edge and force Anakin into choosing right then and there? Or was it just a moment of despiration?

In the end, I'd have to say that, given the advantages, Windu did truly overcome Sidious, who did mean for everything to happen, but maybe not exactly how they did. But that's just my guess, and I know a lot of people out there are able to do a much better job at it than I did. Just figured I'd share.

Antares Navaar
01-29-2012, 02:42 AM
I've heard that sidious is scared of heights, and that's the reason he didn't woop maces arse. Also, as has been stated, he wanted to make anakin choose as to whether to join the dark side or not. If he had killed Mace before anakin arrived, anakin might have seen the evil and destroy it.

I don't believe that he's scared of heights, but I do agree on the last part. Perhaps he did hold back toward the end for this reason, because there's no doubt that Anakin wouldn't have gone with Palpatine if he saw Windu dead, along with Fisto and the others. Hmm, something to think about, it really is.

:c3po3: