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RipleyUK
09-26-2006, 02:30 PM
I'm a friend of MaxState's, and he's more than once dragged me onto OJP =)
Firstly, as an opening post, gotta say I'm impressed with what you've done with the system. Very, very cool. Hard to get your head round at first, but cool.

Secondly, I've heard about some of the things coming up for the next version - particuarily in reference to the gunners and their gadgetry. Now, I'm a fan of the MB [Yes, hiss at me now] style of gunners and how they have their points sorted and whatnot. Thats the main reason why I venture into it from time to time. But I've been urged [By Max <3] to post up my ideas on here for what I think could be good.
Not sure if any of these will already have been discussed, so I'll throw them all out there.

1/ Shield Repel.
For the gunners, a melee skill which has the same hit effect [though significantly reduced damage] of the Concuss. Rifle secondary fire. It can be set as an extra button, and only usable during melee [I was thinking oddly you could use an animation like a chest thrust, or failing that, double palm push away] and it would drain some of your shield per use [I was thinking about 10?]. This would limit it to a maximum of 10 uses, with only two usable from the start of a new life, plus it would have to be used sparingly - Save on shield, or push him away and hope you can get to that item spawn point type of scenario.

2/ Smart Armour.
This one no doubt would of been discussed before - regenerating armour. If you were to make it go up in set incriments, you could allow a cap-limit on how much can be regenerated, as well as the speed at which that happens. I realise this in conjunction with the above can be used to effectively Repel Spam, so if you make it so that pointwise they could have both of these and nothing else, or full this and not enough for Repel, or Repel and level one this, restricting heavily the regen rate. Just an idea though.

3/ Emergency Auto-Medpacks.
When your health reaches a critical point, say, 15hp or under and stays like it for atleast 4 seconds, and automatic singleuse medpack is triggered [One per life] which'll restore you for 50hp. Now, reason I say at least 4 seconds is purely for the fact that if you get slashed with a saber, or really heavily shot, realistically no matter how many medpacks you use you'd still die. Atleast this way you can escape injured, heal abit, fend them off and then either live, die or run.

4/ Double Grappling Hooks.
Hoboy, probably not a favorite. Using the default grappling hook system [the one with the line what acts more like a pole], it'll give you the ability to use two. Reasoning for this is, to effectively Tarzan the whole level, swinging from one hook to the next [This is assuming if hooks are added they don't move at the speed of sound =o]. Can also be used on people to bring them to you, ala Scorpion from Mortal Kombat, by using one as an anchor to keep you fixed and the other to pull the person to you.

5/ Good ol' Steroids.
Act like Force Speed, but also give you temporary strength and defence buffs - but, because they're dulling your senses, disable dodge for a short while during and after. Not sure on this one, havn't thought it through fully, but I'm laying it out there.



I did have more, yet they escape me. Some feedback would be nice on the suggestions =)

razorace
09-26-2006, 03:50 PM
Thanks for posting RipleyUK. :)

1/ Shield Repel.
Maybe if the players had something similar to Durge's lightsaber shields, but I don't think it should be a generic move. There's really no basis for it without an actual shield to push off with. :)

2/ Smart Armour.
This seems a bit unrealistic. If awesome armor like this exists in Star Wars, wouldn't people in the movies use it?

3/ Emergency Auto-Medpacks.
It's an interesting idea, but I think it would more realistic as a useable "bandage" power. Plus, I suspect it would be limited usability because the weapons are so lethal.

4/ Double Grappling Hooks.
Mmmm, I suppose it's possible, but it would be very complicated to impliment and it would be a pain in the ass to balance vs jedi.

5/ Good ol' Steroids.
I don't really see drugs being that useful on the battlefield, otherwise everyone would use them. :)

Maxstate
09-26-2006, 04:19 PM
Thanks for posting RipleyUK. :)


[quote=Razor]
This seems a bit unrealistic. If awesome armor like this exists in Star Wars, wouldn't people in the movies use it?
Neither did gunners dodge 5 saber slashes. Neither did jedi take 3 rockets simultaneously up the ass without getting damage. Neither did "insert OJP feature here" ad infinitum. Movie realism is fun, but we already got a mod for that.


It's an interesting idea, but I think it would more realistic as a useable "bandage" power. Plus, I suspect it would be limited usability because the weapons are so lethal.
Exactly why you should have smart armor, it's a self-sustaining bandage power that can buy you just the right amount of shields to get another frag or bit of exp. And armor with nanobot repair would be very plausible.



Mmmm, I suppose it's possible, but it would be very complicated to impliment and it would be a pain in the ass to balance vs jedi.
Im all for seeing some way of more maneuverability for gunners and jedi alike but I don't like the idea of grappling hooks however much fun they would seem. I like grappling hooks themselves, but they would keep you busy longer than.. bleh. I would like to see the jetpack's maneuverability increased and be given more control. Upgrades for it to be bought that could increase it's speed and length of flight. It should be more like boba fett's , 3-5 second jump boosts with a lot of moving around in the air but not much flying.
Then you could go on and buy an upgrade/modification for it that would make it like the normal jetpack. (example)



I don't really see drugs being that useful on the battlefield, otherwise everyone would use them. :)
They were, Stimulants. And steroids aren't drugs, they're hormones :p

RipleyUK
09-26-2006, 04:33 PM
Maybe if the players had something similar to Durge's lightsaber shields, but I don't think it should be a generic move. There's really no basis for it without an actual shield to push off with. :)

If you want reasoning for it, how about this:
The "shield" is supposed to derive from a belt around the person. Using something like this would simply mean forcing all of the energy of the shield forwards to a certain area with great speed, causing a great push.


This seems a bit unrealistic. If awesome armor like this exists in Star Wars, wouldn't people in the movies use it?

True enough, though in the movies it never fully went into details about the armaments of every single race, so whose to say it didn't exist? =o It'd be the gunner equivelant of force heal, yet slower and only to a certain point.


It's an interesting idea, but I think it would more realistic as a useable "bandage" power. Plus, I suspect it would be limited usability because the weapons are so lethal.

Which is why I said it'd be an EMERGENCY pack. For when you get a spare chance to apply it. Bandages are there to stem the amount of damage and slowly repair it, this is like having a mini bacta tank which goes off when your in a critical state. Plus, about weapons being so lethal, I've found myself many a time with 15 or under hp.


Mmmm, I suppose it's possible, but it would be very complicated to impliment and it would be a pain in the ass to balance vs jedi.

I thought OJP was about realism, not balance? You can't claim one thing is going against realism to SW, and another is going against balance xd Plus, Force push and pull? Saber deflect letting 0 shots through? If anything, this IS a form of balance for vs Jedi.


I don't really see drugs being that useful on the battlefield, otherwise everyone would use them. :)
Battle Stimulants, like Max said. For reference, see KOTOR.

razorace
09-26-2006, 07:16 PM
Neither did gunners dodge 5 saber slashes. Neither did jedi take 3 rockets simultaneously up the ass without getting damage.
Episode 2, Obi-Wan vs. Jango. Obi-Wan, gets hit by a turbolaser blast and a rocket without ill effects.

And armor with nanobot repair would be very plausible.
It's plausible, but it's not seen in Star Wars. :|

The "shield" is supposed to derive from a belt around the person. Using something like this would simply mean forcing all of the energy of the shield forwards to a certain area with great speed, causing a great push.
Well, I'm not in favor of personal shields for players anyway. I'm not sure what we're going to do about that.

True enough, though in the movies it never fully went into details about the armaments of every single race, so whose to say it didn't exist? =o It'd be the gunner equivelant of force heal, yet slower and only to a certain point.
Fair enough. Exotic/expensive weapontry might not be seen in the movies. However, I don't believe that overwhelmingly awesome gadgets would NOT be used by the galaxy's elite (like Boba/Jango Fett) without reason. If we can come up with good enough reasoning, we could put some cool stuff in.

I thought OJP was about realism, not balance? You can't claim one thing is going against realism to SW, and another is going against balance xd Plus, Force push and pull? Saber deflect letting 0 shots through? If anything, this IS a form of balance for vs Jedi.
Well, that's easy enough. Most people don't have the upper arm strength to use grappling hooks like that. In addition, there's little tactical advantage once in combat. In terms of gameplay this would only really be used for ambushes and running from jedi, at least as I can think of. :)

Maxstate
09-27-2006, 09:39 AM
Episode 2, Obi-Wan vs. Jango. Obi-Wan, gets hit by a turbolaser blast and a rocket without ill effects.


It's plausible, but it's not seen in Star Wars. :|


1: Reference? I don't remember him taking a direct hit of either of them.
2: Neither are a lot of things that we do have, that's hardly a good argument.
Self-repairing armor has indeed been in starwars and I'm sure of it.

{TheChosenOne}
09-27-2006, 03:46 PM
This seems a bit unrealistic. If awesome armor like this exists in Star Wars, wouldn't people in the movies use it?

Republic Commando's were known for their regenerating shield. :ears1:

4/ Double Grappling Hooks
If this was implemented then it should only be for certain gunners. If OJP was to take on the MovieBattles look on it, then let a mandalorian be able to buy it only with it having limited uses. So the first AND only level imo would cost 15 points with it having 1 use every 30 seconds so it can't be abused. Only used in dire circumstances. You could also put a timer on how long the grappling hook can be used i.e. only a certain amount of time hanging on something before it gives way like maybe 15 seconds.

Episode 2, Obi-Wan vs. Jango. Obi-Wan, gets hit by a turbolaser blast and a rocket without ill effects.
They didn't directly hit him though. The blast radius is what got Obi-Wan and even then he flew backwards from the explosion.

I think OJP should make a new game mode like MovieBattles has done and take some ideas for classes:

Heroes, Wookiees, Soldiers, Mandalorians, Bounty Hunters, Clone, Jedi/Sith, Trandoshan, Droideka, SBD, etc.

It would allow different armants and abilities for different classes. I remember razor saying he would want to keep dodge in for certain gunners in the future and you could put it for "higher up" type classes such as Hero. Soldiers could have the most life and shield but Heroes would rely on their dodge with minimal life and shield.

For Example:

A Hero would only have 50/50 hp/shield but a Soldier would have 100/100 with no dodge. A Soldier would have access to an E-11, a certain level pistol, and maybe a det pack of some sort. A hero on the other hand would have access to a higher lvl pistol, higher level E-11, dodge, explosives of some sort, and some other cool ability. Same with the Mandalorian. They would be 200/200 with access to westars, EE-3, flamethrower, jetpack, rocket, and a grappling hook.

You could steal another item from Battlefronts book where you need a certain amount of some kind of points in order to have access to the higher up classes.

Another Example:

If you wanted to be a jedi you would start at jedi padawan/sith apprentice but when you get enough points of some kind, kills, or maybe just over time you can if you wanted go up to Jedi Knight/Sith then to Jedi Master/Sith Lord. In the case of gunner, you would start at soldier and when the certain points are gotten you would have access to mandalorian, bounty hunter, or hero, and so on.

I dunno just my rant on what would be a cool new gamemode for OJP which would allow different gadgets and weapons for different people so as to not have a jedi with a jetpack, grappling hook, or E-11. :smash: rofl.

2/ Smart Armour.
Again you could take one from MB's book and use the heal function but instead for shield. Heroes would only heal in 25.. So say if they had 12 health it wouldn't go back to 100 it would go to 25. If you had 26 health it would go up to 50 and so on. You could reverse the effect to work with shields.

razorace
09-27-2006, 03:54 PM
In both instances, I'm pretty sure the explosion was seen in the same frame as him. If real-world explosion physics are considered, he'd be swiss cheese.

Self-repairing armor has indeed been in starwars and I'm sure of it.
When? I suppose it's possible that it's been in the EU, but I mainly count the movies as canon. While parts of the EU are cool, it gets crazy at times. See Luke getting brainwashed on a asteroid to think he's a stormtrooper.

Maxstate
09-27-2006, 04:36 PM
Republic Commando's were known for their regenerating shield. :ears1:


If this was implemented then it should only be for certain gunners. If OJP was to take on the MovieBattles look on it, then let a mandalorian be able to buy it only with it having limited uses. So the first AND only level imo would cost 15 points with it having 1 use every 30 seconds so it can't be abused. Only used in dire circumstances. You could also put a timer on how long the grappling hook can be used i.e. only a certain amount of time hanging on something before it gives way like maybe 15 seconds.


They didn't directly hit him though. The blast radius is what got Obi-Wan and even then he flew backwards from the explosion.

I think OJP should make a new game mode like MovieBattles has done and take some ideas for classes:

Heroes, Wookiees, Soldiers, Mandalorians, Bounty Hunters, Clone, Jedi/Sith, Trandoshan, Droideka, SBD, etc.

It would allow different armants and abilities for different classes. I remember razor saying he would want to keep dodge in for certain gunners in the future and you could put it for "higher up" type classes such as Hero. Soldiers could have the most life and shield but Heroes would rely on their dodge with minimal life and shield.

For Example:

A Hero would only have 50/50 hp/shield but a Soldier would have 100/100 with no dodge. A Soldier would have access to an E-11, a certain level pistol, and maybe a det pack of some sort. A hero on the other hand would have access to a higher lvl pistol, higher level E-11, dodge, explosives of some sort, and some other cool ability. Same with the Mandalorian. They would be 200/200 with access to westars, EE-3, flamethrower, jetpack, rocket, and a grappling hook.

You could steal another item from Battlefronts book where you need a certain amount of some kind of points in order to have access to the higher up classes.

Another Example:

If you wanted to be a jedi you would start at jedi padawan/sith apprentice but when you get enough points of some kind, kills, or maybe just over time you can if you wanted go up to Jedi Knight/Sith then to Jedi Master/Sith Lord. In the case of gunner, you would start at soldier and when the certain points are gotten you would have access to mandalorian, bounty hunter, or hero, and so on.

I dunno just my rant on what would be a cool new gamemode for OJP which would allow different gadgets and weapons for different people so as to not have a jedi with a jetpack, grappling hook, or E-11. :smash: rofl.


Again you could take one from MB's book and use the heal function but instead for shield. Heroes would only heal in 25.. So say if they had 12 health it wouldn't go back to 100 it would go to 25. If you had 26 health it would go up to 50 and so on. You could reverse the effect to work with shields.

No Moviebattles look for OJP, OJP already has plans for the future.
And thanks for the reference.

I might not be posting in a while.. anyone got anything to say or ask, do it now.

Doctor Shaft
09-27-2006, 08:12 PM
I have a different take on this.

Forget "is it Starwars." I mean, that's a consideration, but let's not make it too central to the cause.

The real question should be, "Does it fit in OJP?"

And to that question, I could easily say that some of these things deserve a big NO.

I too would prefer a game that follows more movie canon than EU. While cool, the EU, as razor pointed out, has too many bizarre components as well that rarely mesh well with the rest of its own stuff. The Thrawn Trilogy introduced ysalamari, cloaking devices, and tons of clones. Cool idea that unfortuantely wasn't very self-sustaining in the long run. It was kind of written, at least back then, as a "these are the Star War books... they're may not be that many more to come." Nowadays, ysalamari rarely make an appearance (they're game-breaking anyway), cloaking devices are cut back a bit from Thrawn's party days, and while the clones are still around, you don't see them making clones of the Solo kids, et al. At least, I hope they're not.


Basically, if we accept any new elements, they have to fit in the OJP environment. This is the same environment where Force Drain doesn't really have a place or make an appearance. With that in mind, I think the same criteria should be placed on gadgets.

Shields and regenerative armor rank on the "over the top list." It's simply not necessary. Grappling hooks and jetpacks are fine. But they should be restricted to limited mobility only. There's nothing more annoying than jetpacks that behave more like levitation devices, and grapplinging hooks with zero gravity or momentum to hinder them. About the only shield I would support would be something similar to a droideka field, or even just what JO/JA had with the shield generator walls. But that's about as far as I'd go.

I think Star Wars should maintain its gritty feel, and OJP should be no different. Saber combat currently has this. Force powers only work after a duel has progressed. Jedi have great power, but need to stand still and take a breather in order to regain strength again.

Any gadgets should have the same "feel" to them. High tech armor is fine... like Jango Fett's stuff. Armor that sees little use except in novels and comic books probably isn't so great.

razorace
09-27-2006, 10:40 PM
I think you nailed it on the head Shaft.

I should mention that cloaking devices are supposed to require a lot of power to operate. As such, they're never equipped on "small" ships, like the Falcon.

Maxstate
09-28-2006, 03:19 AM
Basically, if we accept any new elements, they have to fit in the OJP environment. This is the same environment where Force Drain doesn't really have a place or make an appearance. With that in mind, I think the same criteria should be placed on gadgets.
Force Drain doesn't have a place because we're unsure on what to do with it.
Jedi are still able to regain health with Heal, which is balanced and pretty plausible. One heal takes off 50 FP. I think instead of roaming around finding randomly (read handy) placed glowing medkits gunners should be able to use a type of heal too. Bacta isn't going to attract new players. "Hey dude how do gunners heal?", "Yeah they use bacta tanks". In KOTOR you had medikits and advanced medkits that were shot in the leg with an instant healing effect. I think to replace Heal on the gunner side of the layout should be "Medpack" or "Emergency Medpack" for starters. Or if you really really want to make my day; enable "Team Heal" for all gamemodes. Change it to "Dispense Medpack". It would work like this:

-Level 1: Able to heal self every 30 seconds for a small quantity of health, must be in meditative state(Can be discussed, just seems balanced. And you yourself said that Jedi take a breather too.Plus I don't know if you're planning to give gunners FP for this Ace? I was hoping you could change FP to Ability Points or something for gunners)
-Level 2: Same effect as above but from a standing position.
-Level 3: You can use the power to dispense medkits like you do ammo packs for both you and your teammates. The medkits heal about 25 health and cost 50 "points" to dispense.

This is all fiction right now ofcourse, but that's a makeover that can really spice up gameplay. You'd have an actual "medic" gunner build, which I for one would love to play.


Shields and regenerative armor rank on the "over the top list." It's simply not necessary. Grappling hooks and jetpacks are fine. But they should be restricted to limited mobility only. There's nothing more annoying than jetpacks that behave more like levitation devices, and grapplinging hooks with zero gravity or momentum to hinder them. About the only shield I would support would be something similar to a droideka field, or even just what JO/JA had with the shield generator walls. But that's about as far as I'd go.

I disagree on the shields, they would fit perfectly in OJP. Usually when playing FFA you have no time to wait or stop so a regenerative shield or armour comes in handy because it doesn't require you to stop or use anything. Plus, 25-50 shields/armour can mean life or death.
Why have a jetpack that's only limitedly mobile? What's the use? Jedi have Jump 3 and can use it to their hearts content, gunners should have a ****ty two bit jetpack with it's own mind? No, gunners in the air are open to any and all force attacks including but not limited to Pull and Lightning. If you don't power the jetpacks up a bit they'll be useless. Plus, a better jetpack paves roads for Boba/Jango builds. I see it as a short-burst kind of "jump jet" that allows you to reach high and far places by bursting you forwards or up with it's jet. You should be limited to only a small bit of flying space, but the agility and speed of the jetpack should go up.
I've read this somewhere but I can't remember where, it's what Lucas intended the jets to be in the first place. Think Darktrooper.

Shields have been in every Star Wars game I know that's come out for the computer, if personal shields didn't get used in either the movies or the novels I'll kill myself. I could've sworn I saw them. The forcefields are what I want removed and replaced by something better because of different reasons.
First and foremost; they lag. When you're around them , they lag you like hell.
Second is that they are only used when you want to annoy people, in a fast paced game like OJP there's simply no use for something like it.



I think Star Wars should maintain its gritty feel, and OJP should be no different. Saber combat currently has this. Force powers only work after a duel has progressed. Jedi have great power, but need to stand still and take a breather in order to regain strength again. Force powers work whenever you like them to work. The duel key and function are useless and not realistic nor movie like. We've seen force get used in every duel to date.
Maul pushing Obi, Dooku grip whoring Obi, Dooku lightninging Obi (poor Obi:().
Jedi have great power yes, but so do Hero gunners. There's just no reason to make them cannon fodder for Jedi. Mace killed Jango, but Mace is one hell of a jedi Master and is almost the most powerful of them there. Hell, qua saber skills he probably is/was. If Jango wasn't an arrogant bitch and just flew away while shooting him sooner he could've gotten a shot through his defense no doubt about it.


Any gadgets should have the same "feel" to them. High tech armor is fine... like Jango Fett's stuff. Armor that sees little use except in novels and comic books probably isn't so great.
I respect your opinion, but I'd like what's best for OJP and not what's best for it's realism. Regenerating armour, shields, improved jetpacks, grappling hooks all add so many layers of playability and gameplay to OJP that it would be a big mistake not to implement it. Lets face it man, there's a lot of people that like going and taking a gunner class including me. I agree that Jedi are very powerful but OJP is and always will be skill vs. skill. Don't give jedi access to advanced Saber style skills, multiple force powers and leave gunners hanging there with a half-retarded jetpack man.

Vruki Salet
09-28-2006, 10:19 AM
All of this could be settled more easily if there was some kind of "mission statement" for OJP-E. What kind if mod is it? "OJP with gameplay changes" isn't enough of a description to help here.

What kind of gametype(s) is it to have? Is there a theme? Is it just generic FPS games where players play random jedi and SW gunner characters and mix it up willy-nilly or what?

Regular JKA FPS games have stuff like a Rodian jedi fighting alongside a Wookie jedi, a Jan Ors-lookalike and an Imperial officer armed with rocket launchers, trying to get a flag from a flakcannon toting "luke" and his mandalorean, Count Dooku and jawa-jedi teammates.

It's all random and kooky, and I don't think giving the jawa a better saber system or making "gunner count dooku" get a cool jetpack is gonna be half the enhancement that putting it all in sensible order would be. How about figuring out a setting of time, place and purpose? That would lead to knowing what characters and classes belong and what tools they would get.

Maxstate
09-28-2006, 10:22 AM
All of this could be settled more easily if there was some kind of "mission statement" for OJP-E. What kind if mod is it? "OJP with gameplay changes" isn't enough of a description to help here.

What kind of gametype(s) is it to have? Is there a theme? Is it just generic FPS games where players play random jedi and SW gunner characters and mix it up willy-nilly or what?

Regular JKA FPS games have stuff like a Rodian jedi fighting alongside a Wookie jedi, a Jan Ors-lookalike and an Imperial officer armed with rocket launchers, trying to get a flag from a flakcannon toting "luke" and his mandalorean, Count Dooku and jawa-jedi teammates.

It's all random and kooky, and I don't think giving the jawa a better saber system or making "gunner count dooku" get a cool jetpack is gonna be half the enhancement that putting it all in sensible order would be. How about figuring out a setting of time, place and purpose? That would lead to knowing what characters and classes belong and what tools they would get.
I think we just found your future task for OJP ? :D

Vruki Salet
09-28-2006, 11:05 AM
A theme is kind of a big thing. It's mod-defining. I dunno if Razor would want me to come up with it. I think he should, unless he doesn't care or wants it to be a collective decision. Maybe we could come up with some ideas, put it to a vote then let Razor have veto power.

Sushi_CW
09-28-2006, 05:11 PM
The way I understand OJP, it's more of a base project that people can build a theme on top of instead of a mod with it's own "theme."

Vruki Salet
09-28-2006, 05:47 PM
That's OJP basic, and I like it. But Enhanced can't be used for that anymore. The only big difference I can think of is the saber system and that's gone way beyond what I think someone's going to use in their own mod. Why not just go all the way and make it it's own thing all the way?

razorace
09-28-2006, 06:40 PM
My issue is that setting a definitive theme for the mod restricts players in their choices. I understand the desires of a common theme, but I've felt that deciding on a particular theme would just restrict things.

I suppose we could go with a theme of some sort if that's what everyone wants. Personally, I've treated OJP Enhanced like a more developed version of Masters of the Force, which was basically about full on brawls between characters in the Star Wars universe.

Vruki Salet
09-28-2006, 09:51 PM
OK let's see what people say, but I don't think it would be wise or ethical to push in what you don't want Razor. If it turns into something alien to you and you lose interest then the project is sunk. So do you have any ideas to make the thing more cohesive or do you not think that's necessary?

razorace
09-28-2006, 09:57 PM
I honestly don't know. I'm kind of hoping that the experience system will provide that cohesion. Anyway, I figure we can discuss this and see what happens.