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View Full Version : an idea for a setting for OJP-E


Vruki Salet
09-28-2006, 03:16 PM
Me and Maxstate were discussing the idea of a setting or theme for OJP-E, something to help us focus on characters, classes, weapons and gadgets and so on.

I layed out a bunch of options and he invited a couple of friends to the discussion. At first he and I were leaning towards the OT or the Clone Wars. The OT was interesting but we were worried about the lack of jedi and such. The CW had more variety.

His 2 friends though both voted for the Mandalorean wars, and we started to think that might be a pretty cool idea. The only problem was that there has been so much time spent on the OJP-E saber duelling system and that wouldn't get used much except jedi vs. mandaloreans with viborblades.

So Max and I talked about it and decided to settle on a few years later at the Jedi Civil War, the same setting as KOTOR.

This allows for Jedi, Sith, Mandaloreans, Sith & Republic soldiers, and assorted adventurers and bounty hunters. Non-force users could even try duelling with vibroblades.

It is a popular setting and we have a good idea what it should look like. It would require new models and maps or at least a modified appearance to old maps. We also know about the equipment available.

We would have to be careful to not violate bioware's copyrights or whatever the legal stuff with KOTOR is.

What does anyone and everyone think of this? Razor?

RipleyUK
09-28-2006, 05:46 PM
Mandowars ftw, but failing that, this'll be cool too.

And if you claim its a tribute by the way, where you don't charge money for it, you can't breach copywrite.

Vruki Salet
09-28-2006, 05:55 PM
Sorry about the mandalorean wars thing. We were for it but were afraid there wouldn't be enough for saber enthusiasts to do and the possible lack of class variety. KOTOR seems the next best thing since it has the same mandaloreans available (veterans of the mando war are there) but without those issues.

I'll still consider it though if the idea is popular and Maxstate probably would too. So...what do people think of that? Mandalorean wars or Jedi Civil War (aka KOTOR)? Or something else entirely?

UDM
09-29-2006, 03:24 AM
Yeh I like both ideas. I think it's good to have OJP in a KOTOResque setting because it hasn't been touched on anywhere else except...uh KOTOR. However, I'm no walking encyclopedia of KOTOR's settings, or Star Wars for that matter, so...I'm cool with anything

razorace
09-29-2006, 04:50 AM
So, if we went with KOTOR era, where would we go with it?

Darth Cariss
09-29-2006, 08:26 AM
Why limit OJP to one era? I don't see why it can't have alittle of everything...

Vruki Salet
09-29-2006, 10:45 AM
It's just an idea I'm putting out there, looking for opinions such as yours Cariss.

-----------------------

With any kind of setting, Razor, the idea would be to help provide OJP with a natural list of classes, skills, weapons and gadgets. It also provides a rationale for the fighting, something baseJKA mp doesn't provide. I find games that mix up random characters in a pointless brawl with no explanation very boring. But that's a matter of taste I guess.

Maxstate
09-29-2006, 12:37 PM
Why?

Because OJP needs it. You don't have a clue how confusing and stupid it's going to look when dooku and Luke team up to fight Exar Kun with concussion rifles jetpacks, that's why.

Gah, I can state a myriad of reasons but to be honest it's pretty clear WHY.

OJP needs an image, OJP needs something to lure players with, OJP needs style. Basejka just isn't going to cut it, basejka is stupid and awkward.

Sushi_CW
09-29-2006, 01:38 PM
KOTOR would be a fun setting, but I see no reason to limit outselves by making it an official part of Enhanced. Why not just design a map/models/weapons/sounds pack that goes on top of OJPE? I personally don't think that enhanced, on its own, should have any new models, maps, or significant UI changes (beyond that necessary for DP and mishap bars). However, I am all for a KOTOR (or whatever) themed package that uses Enhanced as the core and adds all those extras on top. This package could be updated concurrently with vanilla Enhanced. Everybody wins.

Vruki Salet
09-29-2006, 01:49 PM
Haha yeah what Max said too.

Darth Cariss
09-29-2006, 02:24 PM
I have to agree with Sushi, by all means make "Enhanced" Packs like a KOTOR themed version of Enhanced, that sounds great. But I think Enhanced by itself should be more open-ended.

Maxstate
09-29-2006, 02:50 PM
That's not a good compromise, that just takes more work and will leave people scattered with different versions of the game just like it is now. We're talking about a unified OJP project that everyone likes.

You can not stick to base. Base was never meant to have anything to do with star wars, it was a quick addon to make an extra buck. We need an image, we need a face, we need something that will make people go : "Hey that's OJP!" when they see screenshots! Do you really think that MB would have made it so far if they had kept their base look?

Do you really think OJP will go as far with the current base look and feel? I don't.
I know your opinion matters as much as mine but I had to gulp down a lot of my own choices for the ones that have been made because I know that even though I don't like them, they are the best for OJP.

I hate the previously mentioned fact of Tavion and Jaden happily fighting together against Yoda and .. Luke's evil twin (!) with "Golan Arms FC1 Flechette " rifles. I hate how the word "Mandalorean" means as much as "skin" in OJP. So many wrongs that can be fixed and the answer is clear and simple.

Cariss, you like Mandaloreans correct? Wouldn't it be much more fun to play as a mandalorean amongst Sith and other bounty hunter types instead of amongst Jedi ? Wouldn't it be more fun to actually be able to fly around on Kamino, or on Yavin instead of "mp/ffa1" ? Wouldn't it be better and simpler when someone asks you "What's OJP?" to just say "It's a (insert era here) themed mod with an experience system" instead of "It's base, with bug fixes :thumbsup:." ?

I appeal to your common sense here, ofcourse we don't have to be limited to models and maps of that time or era! Think of MB's open mode, in it you can choose any jedi you want on any map you want! We don't have to follow the rules exactly.

Don't continue dragging OJP through base-sludge, please.

And remember that KOTOR is just a suggestion, we don't need to pick it specifically, this thread is intented to see what people like best.

Sushi_CW
09-29-2006, 05:33 PM
I don't think we disagree as much as you think. Maybe it's just the developer in me that wants to separate the presentation layer from the code layer. :) The point I'm trying to make is that we can do both: we have the vanilla "Enhanced" package, and then the Enhanced-powered KOTOR package to get everyone excited. The package could be the "official" goodies package for OJP, and even included in the main download link, but I think it is vitally important that vanilla Enhanced in all its "base"-ness remains a separate product. Believe it or not, there are people that will prefer to play "base" Enhanced over a souped-up version.

Here's another attempt to explain what I'm getting at: it's like car parts. First, there was base JKA, a sedan with a decent engine. Enhanced comes along and provides a souped up engine. You're talking about providing a whole new car to sell, with the new engine. It's a great idea...but a car isn't an engine, and I think that's the point I'm trying to make. They can (and in this case, should) be available for separate purchase. Don't worry about wasted effort, either: work that goes into the engine usually is fairly separate from the work that goes into the rest of the car.

I also want to be clear on something else: Jon, Vruki, myself, and others have all released tweaked PK3s, but I don't think any of us are trying to create branches or divisions in OJP. Speaking for myself at least, the modifed versions I've posted are NOT intended to be a separate branch or divergent from "standard" Enhanced in any way. They are more like concept demos. Why try to explain in words what I think is effective when I can compile a PK3 and let people see/play for themselves? I tweak to my taste and post what I've done. If anyone else likes it, great. If enough people like it and they decide to include it in the main project, great. If they don't, great. :)

razorace
09-29-2006, 05:37 PM
I'm a bit confused. How could we have a theme without forcing player models? I mean, sure, we could add additional maps and models, but we'd have to have the resources to create such material.

Maxstate
09-29-2006, 05:56 PM
I don't think we disagree as much as you think. Maybe it's just the developer in me that wants to separate the presentation layer from the code layer. :) The point I'm trying to make is that we can do both: we have the vanilla "Enhanced" package, and then the Enhanced-powered KOTOR package to get everyone excited.
I know what you're trying to say and I don't like it. I'm a player, I'm not a dev. And I speak with a player's heart when I say that I'd rather be playing
a nicely themed game with it's own image and creativity than a "souped-up" version of base. What makes MB so interesting do you think? IT doesn't look anything like base, that's what. They have their own image they can promote and it's what appeals to players. Releasing a themed "pack" is just another jerry-rig, a weak compromise that I'm not taking.



The package could be the "official" goodies package for OJP, and even included in the main download link, but I think it is vitally important that vanilla Enhanced in all its "base"-ness remains a separate product. Believe it or not, there are people that will prefer to play "base" Enhanced over a souped-up version.
I don't, and how many people do I need for to post here to prove that?
You're looking at OJP and it's future from a developer's view, if you want to preserve a themeless, spartan version of OJP you be my guest but I'm certain that that choice will cost us many a future player.

OJP Enhanced is not Base Enhanced, if you want a good platform to build on you can still take OJP Basic. Developing skill by tweaking the saber system will still be very much possible too. I really don't see any reason to keep OJP
looking like base on steroids, and I also don't think that the majority of players wants it to be that way.


Here's another attempt to explain what I'm getting at: it's like car parts. First, there was base JKA, a sedan with a decent engine. Enhanced comes along and provides a souped up engine. You're talking about providing a whole new car to sell, with the new engine. It's a great idea...but a car isn't an engine, and I think that's the point I'm trying to make. They can (and in this case, should) be available for separate purchase. Don't worry about wasted effort, either: work that goes into the engine usually is fairly separate from the work that goes into the rest of the car.
Here's an analogy for you: The car company is new to the business, they don't have a very big budget and they don't have enough money or time to make seperate versions of the car. They don't even know if their version will fly like they want it to, so they give it a nice theme that's known to work to begin with.

It's not that I don't understand you, it's just that I don't agree with you.
You don't have to explain it to me because I understand perfectly, the thing you need to do is present arguments on why this SHOULDN'T go through.


I also want to be clear on something else: Jon, Vruki, myself, and others have all released tweaked PK3s, but I don't think any of us are trying to create branches or divisions in OJP. Speaking for myself at least, the modifed versions I've posted are NOT intended to be a separate branch or divergent from "standard" Enhanced in any way. They are more like concept demos. Why try to explain in words what I think is effective when I can compile a PK3 and let people see/play for themselves? I tweak to my taste and post what I've done. If anyone else likes it, great. If enough people like it and they decide to include it in the main project, great. If they don't, great. :)

This is known. Altough I'd like to see you work on the stuff that you KNOW Raozr already likes and is going to implement, lift some load off his back, if you stumble upon somethng to tweak in the process you couldn't be at a better position to do so and ask him. No offense at all but I think that taking the "will they like it/will they not" road is not much help to OJP itself.
Since you say you don't want to branch off and create your own version, why not jump straight to the core of it all and help Razor out with some of the upcoming things? You've got the talent and knowledge I reckon :Thumbsup:.

Vruki Salet
09-29-2006, 06:19 PM
Maybe the "theme" doesn't have to be a setting. It just needs to be some underlying concept that unifies the parts of the project.

It's no big deal to me in itself. I'm just seeing if this project could ever be something I'd be interested in devoting time to specifically, instead of just seeing if occasional stuff I do happens to suit OJP's needs and letting you have it if you want. If it's going to be just a '"souped-up" version of base' then my heart won't be in it.

Not only that but I think Max is right, a theme - whatever its form - could give players out there a reason to try the game, a reason to like it, and a reason to stick with it long enough to learn it. A souped-up version of base isn't shiny enough to be worth the pain.

razorace
09-30-2006, 01:54 AM
More than a completely retooled saber combat system and experience system?

If you're going to just concentrate things down like that, you could say that MB2 is just a enhanced version of Siege with an experience system.

At what point do features become a "theme" to you guys?

Maxstate
09-30-2006, 05:23 AM
More than a completely retooled saber combat system and experience system?

If you're going to just concentrate things down like that, you could say that MB2 is just a enhanced version of Siege with an experience system.

At what point do features become a "theme" to you guys?

MB "feels" different, it feels like a brand new and different game. I think because there aren't alot of things there to remind you of base anymore.

Vruki Salet
09-30-2006, 10:30 AM
Their theme is clearly "movie environments", the idea of battling in authentic or fairly authentic movie scenarios with the right characters in the right settings.

The theme of "MovieBattles" isn't about combat or gameplay enhancements they've made. It's about movie battles. Gameplay enhancements are just bells and whistles compared to the idea that it lets you participate in movie scenarios.

razorace
09-30-2006, 04:08 PM
I'm still not seeing what you guys want here. We have no modellers or mappers who actively contribute to the project so I'm not sure what we could do to create a unique theme as currently suggested.

As for the general direction of the mod, I consider it a general retooling of the gameplay to make it more indepth/realistic, an "open" skills-based experience system, with good bots and the ability to play CoOp.

Vruki Salet
09-30-2006, 04:45 PM
CoOp is a good example of what could be a unifying concept. I know it itself is not enough to satisfy those who prefer competitve play, but it's still an example. Maybe "unifying concept" is a better way of saying it than "theme."

Features, i.e. enhancements in gameplay, can't really be the unifying concept in cases like baseJ KA mp where there is too little cohesion to begin with.

Even UT, about as pointless a brawling FFA game as any, dresses it up with an excuse like "it's futuristic gladiator combat sponsered by Liandri Mining Corp." What is it for JKA mp? Any possible SW character using any possible SW weapon (or SW-styled character class loadout) fighting on any possible SW planet map because they are gladiator slaves owned by Hutts?

razorace
09-30-2006, 10:19 PM
I suppose you could come up with some crazy reason, like clones or Force Echos, or something. It's difficult to come up with a plassible reason for deathmatching with respawns.

Sushi_CW
10-01-2006, 02:20 AM
Right. Why try? People don't play FFA expecting a "plausible" theme. FFA is FFA, and it doesn't have to really make sense. So what if you have Chewy in a saber duel with a rebel pilot, using non-canon saber colors? That's FFA. :)

Other gamemodes can work with a theme (Siege, obviously, and potentially CoOp) but some simply aren't meant to... and I think that's OK.

Vruki Salet
10-01-2006, 05:02 AM
OK, well Sushi you are dev #2 now as far as I can see so if the concept is lost on both Razor and you then it's not going to fly and I think I'll just drop it.

Maxstate
10-01-2006, 10:52 AM
OK, well Sushi you are dev #2 now as far as I can see so if the concept is lost on both Razor and you then it's not going to fly and I think I'll just drop it.
Man this sucks.

Even though I really don't agree with you two I'll drop it as well I guess.
Bad move guys, really bad move.

JRHockney*
10-01-2006, 04:50 PM
I havent really said anything here since I'm pretty neutral to the idea, but I do think its more appropriate for when we start creating our own coop missions or maybe by what ever maps we choose for it. If we choose a particular theme for FFA, it might limit what people want to do with it. Although I suppose they could just find or make their own maps anyways. Whatever, like I said, I'm mostly neutral on this.