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Maxstate
10-08-2006, 06:33 AM
Saber Attack 1 = 70% Dp damage, no benefits. Only Yellow.
Saber Attack 2 = 100% Dp Damage. 1 new style you can choose.
Saber Attack 3 = At SBA3 you get to use power slashes, the previous 2 do not have them. One extra style to choose from.

So with all 3 you end up having the same power and damage you have now, but with 2 less styles. When you get the specialisation skills in it'll be a blast playing with your own custom warrior that only has the styles he actually trained in and likes. No more "all jedi have all styles" crap.

Saber defense 1: 30% more DP damage taken. No deflection skill.
Saber Defense 2: 10% more DP damage taken. Every fifth shot and shots that are hit by a saberslash should be deflected.
Saber Defense 3: Regular DP damage, every third shot is deflected.
In combination with Saberattack 3, if you walk and slash your saber around, you automatically deflect shots that hit you. But only if you walk and slash, if you run you only deflect the ones that you hit with your saber while you slash.

Jump 1 (gunners): Access to a shortburst "Launching" jetpack that flings you
away just enough to dodge a saber slash.
Jump 2 (gunners): An advanced version of jump (jetpack 1) 1, you have a 2 second burst which you can steer slightly left or right. You're launched again in one direction and you more horizontal space then actual vertical space unless you aim upwards ofcourse.
Jump 3 (gunners): Either access to a 3 second burst jetpack that covers even more distance, or a better more maneuverable base jetpack.

How this would work:
To launch yourself into a direction you would press and hold Jump like a jedi, your character would jump in the air and be flung towards the direction he'd been walking in. With the jetpack draining fuel (which could be bought back with another skill) in a number that we would define later, and with a type of cooldown for it so it couldn't be spammed vs Jedi (I think it's gonna be hard to use either way, with our Force powers, that's why I want the more novel-realistic SWBF2 type of jetpack). Jump + use would result in a quick launch upwards.

JUmp 1: Jump height of the current jump 2.
Jump 2: Jump height of 3 and access to all acrobatics + Jumping DFA's like the red and Purple DFA.
Jump 3: A higher jump (if the jump right now is 12, how about you double it? Or make it like JK1 and have it be one of those things you gotta charge, and when you let go it flings you upwards.) jump that gives you access to all the regular DFA's.

Adrenal implants/stimulants (speed for gunners) it would work the exact way the Jedi speed system works currently.

Jedi Sprint (Jedi SPeed) 1: You can sprint for 15 FP a second.
Jedi Sprint (Jedi Speed) 2: You can sprint for 10 FP a second.
Jedi Sprint (Jedi Speed) 3: You can sprint for 5 fp a second.
Sprinting at level 1 or 2 would make one vulnerable to Push and Pull powers at any level. Sprinting at level 3 only makes them vulnerable to Grip and lightning. If you sprint you should have 50-70% MORE dp drain as to balance this being spammed against gunners.

Sprint would work like BF2 sprint does. We would have to hold and keep our Speed button pressed in order to Sprint. As soon as we let it go, we stop sprinting! This could be a promising feature and surely a feature that would turn some heads.

Addendum I:
Since Ace likes to have JUmp AND jetpacks available to the same person, it might be smart to leave the jumpbutton-for-jetpack thing out of it if people take both powers. So they could fly with use+jump (or scroll in their inventories, select jetpack and just press use + direction?) and force jump with space.

More coming soon after my few hours of Enemy Territory.

Doctor Shaft
10-08-2006, 11:19 AM
Addendum I:
Since Ace likes to have JUmp AND jetpacks available to the same person, it might be smart to leave the jumpbutton-for-jetpack thing out of it if people take both powers. So they could fly with use+jump (or scroll in their inventories, select jetpack and just press use + direction?) and force jump with space.

Of all the ideas that sounds like it's going to be full of disaster, this is one of them. Jump + Jetpack? I hope we have a good strategy in terms of balancing that out.

In addition, I'm already weary of jetpacks in the first place. The saber combat system is nice, but remember that JA saber animations were designed, first and foremost, for two ground combatants with their feet FIRMLY planted on the floor beneath them. Once you go into aerial combat, you're still using the same swings and techniques. Heck, the lightsabers are bad enough when you're trying to hit something above your head, or below your feet.

What I'm saying is don't overestimate lightsabers in JA. A jetpack that keeps me in the air is a great advantage over a lightsaber, and not because of distance. Instead, it's because it's hard to swing at anything that is floating or evading through the air. I'm hoping that jetpacks can, at best, be pulled down occasionally. I'd hate to be playing "chase the mouse" all day.


Otherwise, all of this sounds good in the jump, lightsaber combat department. What about the other Force Powers now? I'm glad you started this thread, but I've noticed that we still haven't kicked around any good ideas on what to do with the other powers. So far, these are the powers that seem to have a "solution" or use in OJP.

Force Speed
Force Jump
Push/Pull
Force Lightning
Force Heal (it works at least)
Force Absorb (for now... I forsee problems with it in the future... think gunners immune to lightning)


That still leaves us with Protect (not very useful), Drain, Rage, and Mind Trick (which is cool... except not very useful considering how the DP meter works). So what do we do about them?

Are we still going to keep the standard JA Force system (Light/Dark menus)? I know that I haven't really offered and suggestions yet, but at least wanted to establish some grounding before we all start throwing ideas around.

Maxstate
10-08-2006, 11:32 AM
Of all the ideas that sounds like it's going to be full of disaster, this is one of them. Jump + Jetpack? I hope we have a good strategy in terms of balancing that out.
What's there to balance? If people like a hit and run type of gameplay let them do whatever they want. OJP is not going to be endless dueling forever you know.


In addition, I'm already weary of jetpacks in the first place. Our saber combat system is nice, but remember that JA saber animations were designed, first and foremost, for two ground combatants with their feet FIRMLY planted on the floor beneath them. Once you go into aerial combat, you're still using the same swings and techniques. Heck, the lightsabers are bad enough when you're trying to hit something above your head, or below your feet.
Did you even read what kind of jetpacks I want? Do you understand that jetpacks are merely there for quick transportation and lightsaber dodging?
We're not going to have jetpacked jedi fighting each other in the air. Read my post again.


What I'm saying is that we have to be careful not to overestimate lightsabers in JA. A jetpack that keeps me in the air is a great advantage over a lightsaber, and not because of distance. Instead, it's because it's hard to swing at anything that is floating or evading through the air. I'm hoping that jetpacks can, at best, be pulled down occasionally. I'd hate to be playing "chase the mouse" all day. It's not a jetpack that keeps you in the air, it's a jetpack that launches you a good step or 5 away from your enemy and which subsequently needs to cooldown before you can do it again.
If you're worried on how to catch gunners or jedi like that.. well that's what you got force for, force pull for example.


Otherwise, all of this sounds good in the jump, lightsaber combat department. What about the other Force Powers now? I'm glad you started this thread, but I've noticed that we still haven't kicked around any good ideas on what to do with the other powers. So far, these are the powers that seem to have a "solution" or use in OJP.

Well I don't see you giving suggestions either, mister ;)
Everyone wants changes but noone can be arsed to make a thread or even post. These changes aren't going in if you don't comment about them folks. And if you have ideas on what to change, post them. It works.
I'll think of something, okay. But instead of just saying that we lack usable force powers, how's about you actually step up and bring in some ideas on how to change that? That we have useless force powers is not really hard to see.


Force Absorb (for now... I forsee problems with it in the future... think gunners immune to lightning)

I don't think some gunners or "warriors" shouldn't even be allowed to take anything other than neutral core force powers.


That still leaves us with Protect (not very useful), Drain, Rage, and Mind Trick (which is cool... except not very useful considering how the DP meter works). So what do we do about them?

You tell me!
I'm about to post my opinion, just waiting for dinner.

Are we still going to keep the standard JA Force system (Light/Dark menus)? I know that I haven't really offered and suggestions yet, but at least wanted to establish some grounding before we all start throwing ideas around.
No, in the new version dark and light are on teh same page. The different lists I hope to have are "Gadgets/Skills" or "Gunner/Jedi".
And good correction :thumbsup:.

razorace
10-08-2006, 05:11 PM
In the latest beta we have allowed the powers to be taken from the Light and Dark sides of the Force at the same time. In addition, I've added skills for jetpack, pistol, blaster, thermals, and rockets. The jetpack and pistol skills simply give you the related items but the others give the item and give more ammo based on the number of skill ranks taken.

And I think Doc is right, we seem to have several useless powers in the current setup. I was thinkiing that it might be cool to retool Rage to make it be a sort of DP/FP regeneration method. Say, maybe Rage should give the player bonus DP/FP for killing and or taunting enemies.

Doc, if you want to be a part of the betatesting staff, PM me.

Maxstate
10-08-2006, 05:24 PM
In the latest beta we have allowed the powers to be taken from the Light and Dark sides of the Force at the same time. In addition, I've added skills for jetpack, pistol, blaster, thermals, and rockets. The jetpack and pistol skills simply give you the related items but the others give the item and give more ammo based on the number of skill ranks taken.

Radical :O

And I think Doc is right, we seem to have several useless powers in the current setup. I was thinkiing that it might be cool to retool Rage to make it be a sort of DP/FP regeneration method. Say, maybe Rage should give the player bonus DP/FP for killing and or taunting enemies.

Hmmmm...


Doc, if you want to be a part of the betatesting staff, PM me.

Yes Doc would be an excellent addition :D

Darth Cariss
10-08-2006, 08:25 PM
There's some really good suggestions in this thread. What mostly coems to mind is the "Jedi Sprint" idea Maxy had. I think that'd be a great change.

As for Jetpacks, I DO like the idea of having the uber easy-to-use base JKA Jetpack (Movie Battles or FM3 Style), but I think if it IS there it should be super expensive or something.

For L1 and L2 Jetpacks though, I like the idea of it simply launching you somewhere. Would be even better if it had the Boba Fett "launching" pose that he does in Episode 6. That was cool.

Doctor Shaft
10-09-2006, 05:26 PM
And I think Doc is right, we seem to have several useless powers in the current setup. I was thinkiing that it might be cool to retool Rage to make it be a sort of DP/FP regeneration method. Say, maybe Rage should give the player bonus DP/FP for killing and or taunting enemies.

Brilliant idea here. Not just with how Rage could work, but the general direction of how Force powers should be implemented.

My suggestion would be to tool EVERY force power in OJP enhanced towards the DP/FP/MP meters. It would create a consistency for everything, and allow players to always predict, to a degree, what will happen when they do certain things. The consistency would be created by no longer having any "random" powers.

"Ooh, I blast you with this."
"Well, where did that come from?"
"I don't know, but it works."

Lightning and absorb seem to be "solved" for the most part. They counter each other, and the rnaking system seems to work as well. In addition, absorb users would be able to prevent disastrous force pushes during a serious mishap (theoretically). So absorb has a use, even if it's not the most glorious or exciting.

So, a couple ideas for some of the Force Powers. I'll confess that I'm initially being overzealous in terms of proposing some things. If it's even doable or worth the time is something I'm leaving in the back of my mind for now.

One suggestion I'd have for any Force Power discussion is that if we propose anything, we be able to back the idea up with an example from Star Wars. Like the films. Even if it's sort of "stretching it", at least provide an example of inspiration.

--RAGE--
Increased FP/DP sounds great. The question remains of how the player would receive this bonus, and would it it adversely affect how the game is played. I'd say that it should be a power that gives immediate benefits when turned on. The penalty for using it in the past was loss of HP. But HP really doesn't have much value in OJP. You get shot and you die. Or slashed in half. Having more or less HP doesn't seem too terribly useful. It's good to have full health, as it allows that chance of survival, but sacrificing it for lots of power seems not enough of a risk. What if the FP/DP was increased incrementally (along with saber speed increase, like normal), but the mishap meter would also increase along with the gradual health drain?

So, the rage user would get a burst of offensive power (more saber swings per-second, more force points to reek havoc, and more dodge points to survive in battle), but they are more vulnerable to having their weapon knocked away, and they fatigue (HP drain) rapidly? Invulnerability of rage user would be removed, instead favoring the user with a slight defense increase (10% cap)?

[Hypothetical Movie Example]
Darth Vader rages against Luke Skywalker. He effectively drives and overpowers the inexperienced warrior back (More FP... eh), only to have a quick and sudden surprise shot glance his shoulder(More DP/More Mishap). Still, he just gets angrier and totally dominates his attacker, disarming him literally.

RotJ, Luke Skywalker rages against Darth Vader. More DP/FP as he drives Vader back (and despite wild swings, does not get hit), manages to eventually beat Vader in his rage (despite the lack of finesse or focus = higher mishap). Tired after finishing the job (drained HP).

Anakin Skywalker dominates Obi-Wan Kenobi... only to have his legs cut off suddenly due to tactical error and lack of focus (higher mishap).
[/Hypothetical Movie Example]


--Protect--
Force Protect would be similar to Force Rage, but provide a different slant of benefits. DP would be increased (as the user is relying on the Force for added defense), and the DP increase would be greater than with Force Rage (which gets most of its power from the combination of increased speed, increased FP , AND a slight DP advantage). Protect would allow the user to last longer in battle, but not necessarily provide an offensive edge. A player could then use protect as a means of surviving longer, and having more opportunities to score successful parries, attack parries, etc. Because Protect drains FP constantly instead of HP (like Rage), it's not to the users advantage to leave it on constantly, or even necessarily to initiate combat with it, as it's only a DP increase. No offensive benefits, or mishap defenses. Every strike can still be attack parried, creating a situation where they may still block all of the shots thrown at them, but their rapidly losing FP in the process. Unsuccessful use results in a battered Jedi that falls to his knees and finally relents to a killing blow.

Defense bonus like normal JA (they survive a little more, but still die rather quickly).


Obi-Wan Kenobi counters General Grievous' onslaught with a skillful use of Soresu (I was never a fan of the book terminology :) ) along with his complete trust of the Force (Force Protect). Despite Grievous four lightsabers and deadly teaching from Count Dooku, Kenobi manages to parry and disarm his fierce opponent, and at the end even has FP to spare to send his opponent flying (due to allowing his opponent to do most of the attacking and slashing).

Next, he handles Anakin's superior Rage by skillfully parrying and taking the defensive in their fight. He never overpowers Anakin, but he eventually takes the win by patiently drawing him into a mistake.

He takes beatings from both Anakin, Jango Fett, and Grievous, and manages to somehow retain consciousness (defense bonus for Protect).


--Mind Trick--
I'm not sure I really like the "invisibility" aspect of this power. I think it's lame, even if it's cool to go through single player and walk right by enemies. But tricking their minds successfully and trying to simulate that in Multiplayer has never worked. And why someone NEEDS to take Force Seeing to counter this one power is beyond me.

A preliminary idea I have for this would to again, allow it to be used as a bonus/ability in saber combat. By using mind trick, a single opponent is temporarily "tagged" by the user for a "surprise" strike. This stirke would have more accuracy, and the user would seem less aware of it's coming, hence they are apt to lose more DP and incur more MP when used.

The downside to the power would be its Force Cost (which could be increased based on how "useful" it would be). In addition, the Trick would still work as it usually does. You target someone, get in range, then "cast" it. And the effect wears off upon attacking that person. This would give one shot, and be similar to a "Power Shot" or "Attack Fake" in a sense, but instead be more of a direct Force Power. Something they can't really seem coming.

[Movie Example]
Count Dooku battles Obi Wan and Anakin in EPII, constantly surprising them at opportune moments during the battle. Obi Wan finds himself quickly stabbed in the leg and arm (although I guess this could be more of a normal saberlock/superbreak example). Anakin fights Dooku with two sabers, only to find himself suddenly missing one lighsaber in the process (sudden mishap). He is surprised this even happens, and later on finds himself heavy bounced suddenly (things seemed to be going so well), followed by a lost arm.
[/Movie Example]

--Force Seeing--
Force Seeing still has one use. Wall-hacking. This has its uses, but unless you're playing capture the flag, this doesn't see that much use. Perhaps this power could be used to counter more than just Force Mind Trick. I'm on the fense with that one. Or, it could provide the user with a "read-out" of the opponents FP/MP/DP meters. Each level would provide further range of use, but also access to more bars.

Level 1 would give MP only.
Level 2 gives more range, a wall-hack, and a DP meter.
Level 3 provides an FP meter as well, plus further range.

--Drain--
I still have no clue what to suggest for this. It's a projectile power in origin. Can it be modified so that it's not a projectile? I have some ideas, but not sure what to do yet, and if it has to be a projectile type, then I have to modify the thought.

A preliminary idea would be to have it drain something, but draining FP isn't a good idea. That really screws things up for OJP, and forces players to either have absorb on at all times, or avoid combat altogether, since EVERYTHING relies on having FP.


That's all I've got in me for now. Let me know if these ideas are too whacked out or impractical for use. I ripped quite a bit from Razor's inspiration here as well. If anyone has other practical uses, chime in.


I think the best way of approaching this would be to imitate the films. What did our favorite Jedi actually do? One thing JK/JO/JA kind of tweaked a bit too far (in my opinion) were the Force Powers. We don't see our favorite Jedi pals blasting things to death, or going the complete opposite direction and erecting one million different types of shields. Why not provide techniques, or ways of using the Force in fighting.

Sidious and Maul were frightening and raged. Dooku was cold but calculating. Obi-Wan was resilient and deceptively passive. Qui-Gon seemed to fight with such energy, despite old age.

Since we have Dark and Light powers on the same page, I think it's okay to blur the lines a bit. Let allegiances fall based on character, and who chooses to utilize which powers. While lightning is certainly an indication of "falling to the Dark Side", things such as rage could be argued as aspects that even some of the greatest Jedi never completely flush out of themselves. And even some of the darkest Sith still rely on old Jedi tricks if they knew them before hand.

razorace
10-09-2006, 06:47 PM
--RAGE--
I'm not so sure that a constant "drain" should be the way to go with this power. It seems to me that drawing on your rage gains you instant power but is fleeting when things don't go your way.

Maybe it should be a triggered power with an undetermined duration. Basically, you trigger the power and get increased FP regeneration and DP damage. However, if you don't deal enough damage or suffer more damage than you deal, your player starts to "doubt" and begins suffering negative effects like reduced regeneration and higher mishaps. The kicker is that when you turn the power off, negative effects don't wear off until the player starts "winning" the battle in terms of damage dealt vs. taken. Basically, it's a great attack skill, but you really suffer if you don't wield it properly.
--Force Seeing--
I like the idea of player being able to sense additional data about their opponents, but this might prove to have technical problems (most of that data isn't normally sent over the network for each player).
--Protect--
Yeah, I like the idea of this being the "trusting the Force" skill and that is should mirror Rage in some ways. However, I'm not sure how the player could suffer negative effects. Maybe something similar to the "doubt" concept that I mentioned for Rage.
--Drain--
Yeah, I'm not sure we can really retool this one. I suppose we could always replace it with a different power. Maybe something related to the amount of regenation a player gets thru meditation.

crail227
10-09-2006, 06:50 PM
perhaps we could restrict drain to close ranges only

like so (http://japlus.fragism.com/screen/b9.jpg)

maybe drain can slow down dp regen

razorace
10-09-2006, 06:52 PM
That seems unrealistic to me. I don't see Force users as vampires...even thou this skill was awesome to use in SP. :|

crail227
10-09-2006, 09:01 PM
i dont have any ideas for drain

but mindtrick, maybe we can invert the keys

so left is right, and up is down

razorace
10-09-2006, 09:26 PM
That doesn't seem realistic.

Maxstate
10-10-2006, 09:54 AM
I think mindtrick should create a clone of yourself wherever you aim at, lol.
A hologram for diversion ofcourse.

Vruki Salet
10-10-2006, 12:54 PM
Cool idea Max.

razorace
10-11-2006, 06:13 AM
After some playtesting today, we discovered that there seems to be an issue with linking the amount of DP a player gets with their skill point allocation. Simply put, low skill point characters don't have enough DP to last worth anything in battle. Any ideas on how to fix that?

Also, another issue I see is that mercs end up not having enough skills. As such, there's a huge temptation to start dumping the extra points into Force powers. I'd like to avoid that if I could. From brainstorming, I thought up...
- add a LOT more merc skills.
- turn unallociated skill points into a score multipler.

Maxstate
10-11-2006, 10:06 AM
Thanks Vruks.


- add a LOT more merc skills.


I'll get my pack together and we'll arm the cannons for tonight, be ready to review a skeetload of skills :D

JRHockney*
10-11-2006, 08:52 PM
After some playtesting today, we discovered that there seems to be an issue with linking the amount of DP a player gets with their skill point allocation. Simply put, low skill point characters don't have enough DP to last worth anything in battle. Any ideas on how to fix that?

I'll just post the ideas I had before at the server with a few changes: make all jedi start out with 100 DP and then add a point to that for every two kills. For gunners, you could potentially do the same thing except start them at 0 DP. Then they would gradually earn the ability to dodge a saber once or twice. you could also just add to their maximum ammo carry or just give them more ammo. you would also start with low rockets and eanr an extra carry every 10 kills or so. Whatever. I'm not much of a gunner. :P

- add a LOT more merc skills.

Hmm, I say time for some MB2 code porting! XD How about: flamethrower, dual pistol, arc jump, and darts!! :p I dont know. That might be cool but might take a while. For now at least, maybe a single dodge (which gives enough DP to dodge once or adds on a dodge to whatever they have earned [assuming you use the idea above]) thats expensive, more speed, THe rest of what ever weapons are left, and shield upgrade that is a "force field" that resists force powers while you still have shield (Expanded Universe starwars had some crystals that did this I think).

I also nmentioned this idea last night: Make jedis (people who buy a more expensive saber attack 1) get level 1 of all force powers but more expensive guns and gunners get cheaper guns but more expenive force powers.

Razor also suggested maybe jedis just automatically getting level 1 absorb that blocks every thing force wise (but drains FP faster). Thats not a bad idea either, but I still like the first idea bcause its provides more distinction betweenjedis and gunners and makes it a bit harder to do them both.

Doctor Shaft
10-13-2006, 09:05 PM
I'll post more later when my brain is refrehsed for Saturday, but just a couple comments.

1.) Play 009n. It's beautiful. Seriously, I jumped from playing version f to this, and it's lightyears ahead. Even lightyears ahead of i. Honestly, it just felt so smooth. You could really put your finger one whether it was time to block and conserve energy, or swing for the kill, wheras previous versions felt like there was no benefit to not swinging. Especially with the slow-down at 25 DP instead of just 10... forces you to be conservative instead of spam-tastic.

2.) With that being said, I think the Jedi would benefit more from having powers that directly relate to combat in terms of getting FP and DPs, or causing other opponents to suffer MPs more quickly. The system just seems to be capable of suiting something like that well. The Rage ideas, etc, would work well. I've noticed that you already get a DP/FP bonus for each kill as well. Rage giving an even greater bonus would be quite a feature, but the negative costs would still need to be evaluated.

3.) Mercs could definitely benefit from access to gadgets over having "skills". I'd say that the Merc class should be more of about using technology over having natural or "Force-related" abilities. So while the Jedi rely on "natural" abilities, the mercs rely wholly on their source of unnatural power. Max mentioning the flamethrowers, etc., would be fantastic to see. The only problem is that the gadgets shouldn't completely trump the need for weapons. Flamethrowers, visors (to see things... wall hacks are better suited for those that absolutely want to avoid saber combat), perhaps access to a shield generator that is based on "ammo" instead of item usage. So you can turn it on and off at will, deciding when to use it block a persuer.

4.) Some of the Force powers, considering how the system works now, seem to eat up alot of energy. Lightning is a menacing power, but won't last long with anyone who uses it. Perhaps tweaking how much damage it does for the short-bursts might be worth looking at. Should Force Push/Pull ever do damage on a successful knockdown? Just a thought, not something that's needed.

But anyway, beautiful system. The saber locks are wonderful. Not too much, but still predictable. I see the parrying system seems more based on sabers clashing than waiting for random bounces (although bounces still occur, just not as often, at least for me). And really, the slowdown at 25 makes a big difference. It's kept me from just swinging like crazy, and actually gives an incentive to deciding to block over just hoping your saber beats the other guys DP meter. Having Force Powers that give boosts to certain meters would be a pretty interesting way of tweaking the system. Sometimes I'd have no FP left, but a good chunk of DP remaining to block and parry with.

razorace
10-14-2006, 12:23 AM
I've noticed that you already get a DP/FP bonus for each kill as well. Rage giving an even greater bonus would be quite a feature, but the negative costs would still need to be evaluated.
Right, I think we might want to have the kill bonus be the bonus of using the Rage power.

4.) Some of the Force powers, considering how the system works now, seem to eat up alot of energy. Lightning is a menacing power, but won't last long with anyone who uses it. Perhaps tweaking how much damage it does for the short-bursts might be worth looking at. Should Force Push/Pull ever do damage on a successful knockdown? Just a thought, not something that's needed.
Player vs player testing has shown that lightning is actually overpowered when players are low level. Low level players' DP is quickly overwhelmed and the attacker then them at their mercy since even a snap blast knocks them over. We're trying to counter that by having players get more inital DP. That should be in the next release.

Maxstate
10-15-2006, 04:52 PM
Some ideas that come to mind after extensive playtesting today:

-Certain combinations of skills should give a user titles, for example if one takes a combination of a rifle, a jetpack and some rockets they could get the "mandalorean" title. If someone only takes Saber skills and NO force powers they should get the title of "weapons master" or "guardian" or whatever.

-Some weapons should become gadget-only. Saber or Datguru as we know him here is in the works of making a gadget idea of mine that I think we could use for a lot of gadgets including some kind of dart or small grenade launcher.

-The rocket launcher I think does not have any kind of Star Wars feel to it.. it's just.. well it just doesn't feel right. Taking notes from the PLX launcher and it's aiming screen, and drawing inspiration from a mod called Noquarter, I was thinking of making rocket's move slower, but make them steerable.
It's already done in ET:noquarter and it's based on the same engine, so I reckon Ace could do it for 0.1.x ? :p

-Instead of just adding ammo to a weapon, how about more skill points in it actually increase it's usefulness? Such as spread rate, rate of fire, damage per shot, fire modi, scope etc. etc.

-For a certain amount of skillpoints, ranks should be added. Currently I believe that 40 is the lowest level you can go to still keep some kind of saber vs gunning in it without spoiling it. Going as high as about 250.
Anyway, ranks should be added for different levels to accompany the user's "class name". Examples being "Private Maxstate - Mandalorian", or "General Maxstate - Sith Destroyer", whatever. The names can always be worked out, the point is that we need some kind of ranking.

-Are you still planning to do the Lightsaber forms, Ace? You've never given a really 'clear' answer. I'm sorry to keep bugging you about this but I really really really really going to be excited if the whole thing gets a green light from you!
I'll give you a brief look over on how it would work:

You would add a number of Lightsaber Forms into the profile screen just like you added the new "merc" skills. People could buy these only if they have full saber attack and defense 3 , they would cost around 15 to 20 points depending on their quality and bonuses.

Shii-Cho (current yellow):
Should give you no bonus.

Makashi (Current animation pack Makashi):
Should clear out or reduce greatly the damage taken from back whacks so the chance of fighting multiple saber wielding opponents becomes a possibility.
Also would the back attacks that you do while in Makashi do 1.50 times the damage it does normally to simulate the preciseness of the style.
Ripostes done in Makashi should have a small chance to knock back your opponent like a kick does on half mishap. You know the one when they slide backwards?
As a con I would like to see Makashi being unable to deflect any shots back from a blaster and take double damage from blaster shots.

Soresu (current animation pack Soresu) :
"The turtler's Form", DP damage would would be reduced by a number (I think the current damage times 0.75 is pretty good) and 1 in 2 blaster shots would be reflected no matter how fast they arrive after each other.
As a con, I think that Soresu should get the lowest DP damage factor for attacks. I'm too tired to dig into the documenation right now but if I'm not mistaken it was around 12? Make it 9 or 10.

Ataru (Base Tavion's style):
Ataru would be the aggressive acrobatics style.. hmm..
I think that while in Ataru all DFA's should do double damage. Also it seems like a nice choice to have every consecutive attack do just a slight bit more damage so you get a kind of a multiplier effect. The effect will get canceled out if you get parried succesfully. As a con (taking notice of Qui Gon's concentration, and his demise when an unorthodox trick was used) if you as an Ataru user get kicked by an enemy duelist, you immediately either get knocked back at low mishap (the slide back one, or the stumble back one which I would prefer more) or you get knocked down at medium mishap.

Djem so (current red style , preferably replacement pack red style because it has better transitions and distincts itself much better from just being a 'slower yellow style')
Djem-So users should get an even higher damage rating (I think it's 18 now, make it 19) and fatigue should not bother them as much (if regular fatigue sets in at 10, Djem-So users can go to 1-3 without getting fatigued).
This will make for a movie-like effect as you saw with Luke banging on Vader in one of the final scenes, or Anakin just trying to push and push and push Dooku. As a con ofcourse, a riposte at medium to high (yes, anywhere between medium to high, which is from half to top) will result in a disarm.

Niman (current Desann style)
Having this lightsaber skill should give you the ability to make desperation ripostes. If you're verging on death, low on DP, red even and you manage to riposte your enemy's finishing move, you will have your DP restored by 10-20 points depending on your skill level. The skill should also make you regenerate FP much faster when you meditate as a passive skill.
As I think of this as more of a passive style I think that no cons should be added for it.

Juyo (current replacement Juyo)
Juyo does 17 damage right? Lets see it do 18 damage for strikes that aren't parried. I also think that Juyo's power attacks shouldn't cause saber locks if you let go of of your right mouse button after you perform one. If you keep both your mouse buttons pressed for the whole slash it should ofcourse.
This not only brings out the damage potential of Juyo but also the unpredictability, this way people never know if you're out to get them on the floor or just damage them more.
Con? Juyo and/or Vaapad should make you more vulnerable to force powers:
-1.25 more damage for Lightning.
-1.50 more damage for Grip.
-Pushable and Pullable in the air no matter what level of Absorb you have.



-I love what you did with the DP levels being parallel to your skill level, to make it even more interesting how's about you get that old idea of mine in? :



Saber defense 1: No deflection skill.
Saber Defense 2: Every fifth shot and shots that are hit by a saberslash should be deflected. If you are hit with a 6th shot very soon after the 5th, you can not deflect it.
Saber Defense 3: Every third shot is deflected.
Saber defense 3 also enables Ripostes.

Saber defense 3 would also enable "T3". Ace, please please add it in.
Currently, killing gunners really doesn't give you any kind of satisfaction since it's not dangerous enough.. I spent minutes slashing at the same gunner and I could deflect every single shot that he hit me with.
It's not just that it's not fair to gunners, it's not fun, not immersive and not Starwars-like for us Jedi players.

The only thing I ask is this: You can not deflect shots from blasters if you are slashing your saber, UNLESS you hit them with your saber. You CAN deflect and slash at the same time if you walk and slash, this makes killing gunners with your saber a lot more in-depth , fun and strategic. You can't just ignore the jedi vs gunner side of things, I like saber vs saber as much or even more than you do but I still find that actually putting effort and wits into killing a gunner the most efficient way is still A LOT more fun than how it is now.
Please Ace, please please please! Can we at least TRY it?





I changed my ideas a bit to suit the current 009N more.

Saber Attack 1 = No changes.
Saber Attack 2 = No changes.
Saber Attack 3 = At SBA3 you get to use power slashes, the previous 2 do not have them.

Jump 1: Jump height of the current jump 2.
Jump 2: Jump height of 3 and access to all acrobatics + Jumping DFA's like the red and Purple DFA.
Jump 3: A higher jump (if the jump right now is 12, how about you double it? Or make it like JK1 and have it be one of those things you gotta charge, and when you let go it flings you upwards.) jump that gives you access to all the regular DFA's.

Jedi Sprint (Jedi SPeed) 1: You can sprint for 15 FP a second.
Jedi Sprint (Jedi Speed) 2: You can sprint for 10 FP a second.
Jedi Sprint (Jedi Speed) 3: You can sprint for 5 fp a second.
Sprinting at level 1 or 2 would make one vulnerable to Push and Pull powers at any level. Sprinting at level 3 only makes them vulnerable to Grip and lightning. If you sprint you should have 50-70% MORE dp drain as to balance this being spammed against gunners.

Sprint would work like BF2 sprint does. We would have to hold and keep our Speed button pressed in order to Sprint. As soon as we let it go, we stop sprinting! This could be a promising feature and surely a feature that would turn some heads.


-Absorb should be a passive power that works only when you are above a certain level of FP (stamina). Higher level powers require a higher number of FP for you to have to resist it. THe different levels of absorb should decrease this level gradually , making force powers an effective weapon against the weak, tired and uneducated in the way of the Force.

-...I see the riposte locks are still in the game, I thought you removed those? :( Is there a way I can turn them off or whatever? I really liked ripostes when they just bounced your opponent away, they actually made sense then and required skill to use and know-ho to perform well since you didn't know exactly if it would work , just like in most fencing situations. Currently you know exactly when you can counter and attack or kick your opponent because you have a 2 second lock that plays out just before. It removes a certain surprise effect, a pleasant feeling of accomplishment and it removes the strategy of the unpredictable from the game and I really think it's not right.

-I think the shotgun (the FC1 flechette rifle) should be removed and that it should become a mine-laying device. You would have the ability of launching trip mines that blow up when you press right mouse button or when someone walks near them. Proximity mines! The use of it is that you can just fire and launch mines where you want them to be without spoiling your cover and walking over there, might it be the case that you're playing a sneaky character.

That's all for now, I'm specifically interested in the Lightsaber skill ideas getting in. The rest is just sideshow talk.

razorace
10-15-2006, 11:26 PM
After some investigation, I've decided to have saber style perks/weaknesses be purchasable skills since balancing the various styles with associated perks/weaknesses was too tricky.

JRHockney*
10-16-2006, 12:12 AM
After some investigation, I've decided to have saber style perks/weaknesses be purchasable skills since balancing the various styles with associated perks/weaknesses was too tricky.

Perhaps, but I do think the styles should still have differing DP damages as default. I'm sorry, but the big baseball bat windup of red style better do more damage then the quick jab of blue style or the speedy onehanded slash of aqua. I know you've been trying to make sabers styles the same and a matter of personal preference, but you're just ignoring the laws of physics by doing that. :p Also, if you have the option to make aqua stronger than or equal to red in DP damage, no one is going to want to use red because its greater number of animation frames in it's windup makes it hit not as quickly as aqua or just about every other style. To put it simply, all the styles will never be the same because of how they are build and look.

I would also say make each style purchased for uniqueness factor and the early balancing of whatever perks they get for their style.

btw Max, The style DP damages are presently all 15. Razor set them there for rebalancing but hasn't changed them yet. Before they were: staff/dual 12, tavion 13, blue 14, yellow 15, desann 16, and red 17. I think they should be back to the way they were except blue replacing tavion as the weakest. I still like the idea of making one handed dual style an option.

Maxstate
10-16-2006, 04:54 AM
Perhaps, but I do think the styles should still have differing DP damages as default. I'm sorry, but the big baseball bat windup of red style better do more damage then the quick jab of blue style or the speedy onehanded slash of aqua. I know you've been trying to make sabers styles the same and a matter of personal preference, but you're just ignoring the laws of physics by doing that. :p Also, if you have the option to make aqua stronger than or equal to red in DP damage, no one is going to want to use red because its greater number of animation frames in it's windup makes it hit not as quickly as aqua or just about every other style. To put it simply, all the styles will never be the same because of how they are build and look.

I would also say make each style purchased for uniqueness factor and the early balancing of whatever perks they get for their style.

btw Max, The style DP damages are presently all 15. Razor set them there for rebalancing but hasn't changed them yet. Before they were: staff/dual 12, tavion 13, blue 14, yellow 15, desann 16, and red 17. I think they should be back to the way they were except blue replacing tavion as the weakest. I still like the idea of making one handed dual style an option.

Damn.. how could I've missed that? :(

I agree with the damage thing though.

Ace, you're saying you don't want the styles to be bound to ingame styles but just give you perks? I dunno about that.. but I guess we can do that for starters, to see if it's possible or not.

razorace
10-16-2006, 05:23 AM
I'm saying that it was too difficult to do a per-style balancing act. We flat out couldn't come up with a way to balance them out without getting corny. As such, I figured we should try doing it where players can choose which perks/disadvantages they get instead.

Maxstate
10-16-2006, 08:41 AM
I'm saying that it was too difficult to do a per-style balancing act. We flat out couldn't come up with a way to balance them out without getting corny. As such, I figured we should try doing it where players can choose which perks/disadvantages they get instead.
Ahh, so a "no named" perk/disadvantage system? Nothing to do with the forms/styles? Sorry if I'm a bit thick here.

Sushi_CW
10-16-2006, 02:15 PM
I think a simple system where longer swings (more frames) is inversely proportional to damage would be enough to differentiate the styles. Being able to hit more often should mean hitting less hard, and visa versa. Hockney's idea of ordering them blue, cyan, yellow, purple, red sounds good to me.

Maxstate
10-16-2006, 02:36 PM
I don't.

We already kinda had that with the bigger and slower styles doing more damage, it didn't offer you with any kind of customization effect and didn't distinct your persona and character from others' characters. Our saber system is already top-notch, nothing else here that can beat it. Still if we want to go down the path of customization we need something like this.

Also, it's personal preference. I like the Forms but I'm not gonna bug Razor to get them ingame if he doesn't want too. BUT I would like to see more saber customization, more difference in damage, precision, speed, more difference in feats, getting abilities through saber styles.. that kinda thing. Currently, all Jedi have access to all the styles.
Later on, in 0.1.0 I'd like to see that all Jedi can pick 3 styles and upgrade those styles, be it with the Forms or not. Just adding simple differences in damage and speed isn't going to run well with the huge, customizable exp system and complex saber system we have right now.

Now Ace's post got me thinking, what if we could add different perks based on the Forms in the "Saber selection" menu just like we did with the Merc skills in the Profile menu? Not just that but what about making skills named "Precision sabering", or "Advanced Jedi Defense" or "Anatomy knowledge" that you can buy from the menu with each it's own perk (and weakness if necessary) ?

For example "precision sabering" could get you skills based loosely on Makashi (it would make sense) like the ability to deal more damage to unparried strikes or deal more back damage? Precision sabering would just be a Level 1 skill in a series of Makashi-based skills, as an example the second skill would be "Dueler's precision" or something like that which would upgrade the perk and/or add another one similar to it. (I'm just spitting out names and ideas that seem like good additions to me :))
"Anatomy knowledge" would give you 'knowledge of vital organ locations' and thusly for example do more damage to unarmed foes?

Also I'd really like these skills to be bound to one style at a time, I really don't see someone using Red style or Djem-So as a precision style. If it's not possible I can live with it though, just saying.

Razor, could you try implementing one of those things I mentioned above for us on the Code server so we can see if it works correctly? Pwease?

Tanqexe
10-16-2006, 05:02 PM
Also, it's personal preference. I like the Forms but I'm not gonna bug Razor to get them ingame if he doesn't want too. BUT I would like to see more saber customization, more difference in damage, precision, speed, more difference in feats, getting abilities through saber styles.. that kinda thing. Currently, all Jedi have access to all the styles.
Later on, in 0.1.0 I'd like to see that all Jedi can pick 3 styles and upgrade those styles, be it with the Forms or not. Just adding simple differences in damage and speed isn't going to run well with the huge, customizable exp system and complex saber system we have right now.

Now Ace's post got me thinking, what if we could add different perks based on the Forms in the "Saber selection" menu just like we did with the Merc skills in the Profile menu? Not just that but what about making skills named "Precision sabering", or "Advanced Jedi Defense" or "Anatomy knowledge" that you can buy from the menu with each it's own perk (and weakness if necessary) ?

For example "precision sabering" could get you skills based loosely on Makashi (it would make sense) like the ability to deal more damage to unparried strikes or deal more back damage? Precision sabering would just be a Level 1 skill in a series of Makashi-based skills, as an example the second skill would be "Dueler's precision" or something like that which would upgrade the perk and/or add another one similar to it. (I'm just spitting out names and ideas that seem like good additions to me :))
"Anatomy knowledge" would give you 'knowledge of vital organ locations' and thusly for example do more damage to unarmed foes?

Also I'd really like these skills to be bound to one style at a time, I really don't see someone using Red style or Djem-So as a precision style. If it's not possible I can live with it though, just saying.

Razor, could you try implementing one of those things I mentioned above for us on the Code server so we can see if it works correctly? Pwease?

I've been working on the Saber Skills System conceptually for a while, actually, just haven't been able to finish it due to a miriad of IRL stuff. I had a nice talk with Razor last night about it and it follows his idea of full skill customizability combined with the use of Forms.

Basically what I've done is that instead of limiting skills to particular Forms and their corresponding styles, I've conceptually grouped aspects of the OJP saber system into seven categories. They are:

Saber Proficiency: (tentative, might meld this in with Form VI instead)
Form I: Constitution (health and fatigue)
Form II: Parries (defensive and offensive use)
Form III: Blaster deflection and saber blocking
Form IV: Acrobatics
Form V: Brute strength
Form VI: Cross-class skills to buff up dual/staff
Form VII: Feints

Basically the way this would have to work would be that it'd be expensive to purchase too many perks, so you'll have to get flaws to get back some skill points so that you can invest more. This way people can basically create their own styles of combat while others who really dig the whole Forms thing can invest their points and have a Form focus. Mastery comes from having all the perks/flaws of one form selected. Mastering a form will magnify the perks/flaws of a style and also unlock a mastery skill.

I'm thinking that deadlier skills like those from Form VII should be purchased if you invest enough skill points in perks/flaws to master more than one form to access...basically a more elaborate version of the current saber attack/defense tier levels. I'm also wondering if it'd be better to have penalties for skills used outside of one style or give bonuses for use in one style instead. I'm also a bit iffy on the saber proficiency section; maybe those perks/flaws can meld in with Form VI to give more incentive in getting dual/staff?

I'm currently making an interactive webpage to display the skills that I've thought up so far (with some incentive from Maxstate's ideas) and show how the skills would be arranged, but basically each category will have three perks and three flaws except for Form I which only has two of each. To master a Form you have to select all the perks and flaws in that row. However, depending on how many skill points you have available, you can choose to customize however you want; you can have an acrobatic turtler or a guy who can comfortably parry on the defensive and then hurt you like hell with overhead chops -- lots of possibilities. You can do Soresu moves while in a Djem-So (Red) style, but to make the skills in a category really shine you'll have to use styles corresponding to the skill's category.

In my opinion the skill points distribution will have to be just enough to only allow mastery of up to three styles when a player is high-level. One way to accomplish this would be to replace the Saber Attack/Defense tiers in the Powers menu to "Saber Combat," and let's say we can have 6 levels there. Suppose that the first level of Saber Combat costs 8 points; you select it and 8 points gets deducted from your skill points pool. In doing so you're allowed access to the lightsaber and you'll be able to unlock the Saber Skills menu (thinking along the lines of the MBII skills menu here). When you open the Saber Skills menu, you can see that there are 8 points that you can spend in your saber skill points pool. So basically you've invested 8 points to choose the kinds of saber skills that you want and gain more saber skill points by purchasing flaws. As you gain more skill points from killing people, you'll have enough skill points to invest in Saber Combat lvl 2, 3, and so on. Each additional level will give you more saber skill points corresponding to the number of skill points you needed to invest for each additional level. Saber Combat 1 and 2 will allow you the use of one style, 3 and 4 gives you two styles that you can select, and 5 and 6 will give you three styles. With each additional level you won't have to purchase as many flaws to grab the perks that you want, so it's kind of simulates an increasing proficiency with certain styles of combat.

Razor's said that the above idea would be difficult to implement because the UI code is messy, so another alternative is to merge the perks/flaws into skills with both advantages and drawbacks. In this scheme you'll just have 3 levels in Saber Combat, where each level gives you access to one more style. Just like the first system, once you buy Saber Combat 1 you'll have access to the lightsaber as well as the Saber Skills Menu. The saber skills will be purchased using whatever skill points you have available.

Another alternative is to combine the two systems and purchase individual perks and flaws using the general skill points. I'm a bit conflicted about this because nothing will stop somebody from only purchasing perks; I'm skeptical about letting high level XP players have no sort of weakness to exploit so that much lower level XP players can even stand a chance. The flaws in my opinion have to be bought to introduce an additional element of strategy as to how a high level player fights. It'll also force the player to think how they want to invest in the Saber Skills System and allow low level XP players to win by fighting smart while keeping high level players on their toes, because...well, when you're someone with 54 DP and you're up against somebody with, say, 170 DP, you'll feel like you're barely getting in any punches.

Anyway I've managed to think up the perks and Form mastery skills, but I haven't been able to work on the flaws (2 for Form I, 3 each for the rest). I'll get that webpage working when I get the time to to show you guys.

Maxstate
10-16-2006, 05:22 PM
I've been working on the Saber Skills System conceptually for a while, actually, just haven't been able to finish it due to a miriad of IRL stuff. I had a nice talk with Razor last night about it and it follows his idea of full skill customizability combined with the use of Forms.

Basically what I've done is that instead of limiting skills to particular Forms and their corresponding styles, I've conceptually grouped aspects of the OJP saber system into seven categories. They are:

Saber Proficiency: (tentative, might meld this in with Form VI instead)
Form I: Constitution (health and fatigue)
Form II: Parries (defensive and offensive use)
Form III: Blaster deflection and saber blocking
Form IV: Acrobatics
Form V: Brute strength
Form VI: Cross-class skills to buff up dual/staff
Form VII: Feints

Basically the way this would have to work would be that it'd be expensive to purchase too many perks, so you'll have to get flaws to get back some skill points so that you can invest more. This way people can basically create their own styles of combat while others who really dig the whole Forms thing can invest their points and have a Form focus. Mastery comes from having all the perks/flaws of one form selected. Mastering a form will magnify the perks/flaws of a style and also unlock a mastery skill.

I'm thinking that deadlier skills like those from Form VII should be purchased if you invest enough skill points in perks/flaws to master more than one form to access...basically a more elaborate version of the current saber attack/defense tier levels. I'm also wondering if it'd be better to have penalties for skills used outside of one style or give bonuses for use in one style instead. I'm also a bit iffy on the saber proficiency section; maybe those perks/flaws can meld in with Form VI to give more incentive in getting dual/staff?

I'm currently making an interactive webpage to display the skills that I've thought up so far (with some incentive from Maxstate's ideas) and show how the skills would be arranged, but basically each category will have three perks and three flaws except for Form I which only has two of each. To master a Form you have to select all the perks and flaws in that row. However, depending on how many skill points you have available, you can choose to customize however you want; you can have an acrobatic turtler or a guy who can comfortably parry on the defensive and then hurt you like hell with overhead chops -- lots of possibilities. You can do Soresu moves while in a Djem-So (Red) style, but to make the skills in a category really shine you'll have to use styles corresponding to the skill's category.

In my opinion the skill points distribution will have to be just enough to only allow mastery of up to three styles when a player is high-level. One way to accomplish this would be to replace the Saber Attack/Defense tiers in the Powers menu to "Saber Combat," and let's say we can have 6 levels there. Suppose that the first level of Saber Combat costs 8 points; you select it and 8 points gets deducted from your skill points pool. In doing so you're allowed access to the lightsaber and you'll be able to unlock the Saber Skills menu (thinking along the lines of the MBII skills menu here). When you open the Saber Skills menu, you can see that there are 8 points that you can spend in your saber skill points pool. So basically you've invested 8 points to choose the kinds of saber skills that you want and gain more saber skill points by purchasing flaws. As you gain more skill points from killing people, you'll have enough skill points to invest in Saber Combat lvl 2, 3, and so on. Each additional level will give you more saber skill points corresponding to the number of skill points you needed to invest for each additional level. Saber Combat 1 and 2 will allow you the use of one style, 3 and 4 gives you two styles that you can select, and 5 and 6 will give you three styles. With each additional level you won't have to purchase as many flaws to grab the perks that you want, so it's kind of simulates an increasing proficiency with certain styles of combat.

Razor's said that the above idea would be difficult to implement because the UI code is messy, so another alternative is to merge the perks/flaws into skills with both advantages and drawbacks. In this scheme you'll just have 3 levels in Saber Combat, where each level gives you access to one more style. Just like the first system, once you buy Saber Combat 1 you'll have access to the lightsaber as well as the Saber Skills Menu. The saber skills will be purchased using whatever skill points you have available.

Another alternative is to combine the two systems and purchase individual perks and flaws using the general skill points. I'm a bit conflicted about this because nothing will stop somebody from only purchasing perks; I'm skeptical about letting high level XP players have no sort of weakness to exploit so that much lower level XP players can even stand a chance. The flaws in my opinion have to be bought to introduce an additional element of strategy as to how a high level player fights. It'll also force the player to think how they want to invest in the Saber Skills System and allow low level XP players to win by fighting smart while keeping high level players on their toes, because...well, when you're someone with 54 DP and you're up against somebody with, say, 170 DP, you'll feel like you're barely getting in any punches.

Anyway I've managed to think up the perks and Form mastery skills, but I haven't been able to work on the flaws (2 for Form I, 3 each for the rest). I'll get that webpage working when I get the time to to show you guys.


Sounds nice, and I really hope that you will take some of my ideas in it.
If Razor is taking your idea for a ride I'll be more than happy to have mine sitting on the backseat nagging you two ;) I've been stressing for something like this for so long!

And if you need cons and weaknesses or pros just holler, I've written like 2 guides for MB saber combat based on the seven Forms somewhat, I know approximately what Gillard was thinking when he pulled them from his ass :thumbsup:

razorace
10-16-2006, 07:21 PM
I think a simple system where longer swings (more frames) is inversely proportional to damage would be enough to differentiate the styles. Being able to hit more often should mean hitting less hard, and visa versa. Hockney's idea of ordering them blue, cyan, yellow, purple, red sounds good to me.
Unfortunately, frames per animations aren't an accurate measure of the windup speeds. Sometimes some animations simply have more frames for animation detail.

As for perks/disadvantages, based on my talks with Tanqexe, I think we should have a variety of them that apply to saberers, Force users, and gunners rather than be "form" based.

I suggest that perks cost skill points while disadvantages give skill points. However, you should only be able to take perks/disadvantages if you have the related skills. IE, you can't have a loose saber grip if you don't have a saber.

razorace
10-17-2006, 04:43 AM
Say, what do you guys think of having weapons weigh down a fighter and either making them move slower or make them use up FP to run?

Maxstate
10-17-2006, 05:43 AM
Say, what do you guys think of having weapons weigh down a fighter and either making them move slower or make them use up FP to run?
..Unless he buys a "strength" skill or something to even it out? I'll say yes to that :thumbsup:.

JRHockney*
10-17-2006, 08:35 AM
..Unless he buys a "strength" skill or something to even it out? I'll say yes to that :thumbsup:.

Thats probably a good idea. We could make it relative to how much ammo your carrying as well. Maybe even slightly increased jump height too?

Maxstate
10-17-2006, 10:17 AM
(Keep my previous big post in mind)

I don't know but it seems like a good choice to get some kind of reloading in the game, even though we never saw it in the movies I think I have seen clones asking for ammo and/or throwing their rifle down and taking their sidearm.
More proof is that the e-11 obviously has a clip sticking out of it's side just like the sterling. We wouldn't need any new animations or GFX for this, just new sounds that we can get pretty easily.
I don't think our rocket launcher can hold 24 rockets even if you placed them throughout the whole gun, the balls that you can fire off with the Flechette gun are also coming out of nowhere. Not to mention the big blob blast from the repeater.

If not reloading, then certainly overheating?

The only weapons that I think should not have any type of reloading are:
-The demp, because it doesn't work on shots or rounds but on energy.
-The bowcaster, because I want it to play a role again in star wars games.
It's been left alone and forgotten about by too many. I suggest removing the charge function and adding in a scope and faster projectiles which will be buyable.
-The Disruptor, because otherwise it would become useless. I also think that back shots with it should be dodged instead of blocked after you buy an upgrade that I will state later on.


On to what I had in mind for the skilltree to be like;


Skill tree - potential skill ideas.
_______________________________________________

Gun Skills:

Improved accuracy - 5 points -- weapons affected: E-11, bowcaster.
Your accuracy will be almost perfect in a crouched position.

Commando's Accuracy/Improved accuracy 2 - 5 points -- weapons affected: E-11, bowcaster.
Your accuracy will be almost perfect in a crouched position, or while you are walking.

Sniper's Accuracy/Improved Accuracy 3 - 3 points -- weapons affected:
E-11, bowcaster.
Your E-11 and Bowcaster aim are unmatched, you can run, walk and crouch and shoot with almost no spray and recoil.

=-----------------

Flamethrower - 15 points
(effect to be discussed)

=-----------------
Now for this skill to work, secondary fires, should be deactivated for all weapons. I don't think this will be too hard eh Ace?

Blaster Training- 4 points -- weapons affected: E-11, Bryar pistol, DL-44 Pistol, Thermal Detonator.
Your use of light armaments has become better and more efficient due to extensive training. (Secondary fire enabled for the weapons listed, so auto fire for the E-11, Pistol charge and Thermal secondary fire.)

Blaster Training 2/Demolition training - 4 points -- Weapons affected: DEMP(primary only) , Rocket Launcher becomes available from the list of weapons (primary only), Concussion rifle becomes available (primary only), Det packs are available, Trip mines' secondary fire (proximity mine) activated.

Blaster Training 3/Rifle training - 3 points -- Weapons affected: Disruptor zoom mode enabled, Repeater buyable from the list (primary only).

=----------------

Energy weapon Training - 10 points -- Weapons effected: DEMP secondary available, Concussion rifle secondary available, Repeater secondary available.
Having studied energy weapons you now know how to use them more efficiently.
-Demp primary overloads guns and stops them from shooting while the target is under the effect of it, Secondary full shot blast drains 10-50 rounds of ammo randomly.
-Concussion primary deals 50-70 HP damage. Unless the target has shields, then only 10 shield damage. Secondary knocks the target over (it already does :)) and forces it to stand up slowly like a jedi with no force Jump.
Secondary cooldown: 4 seconds.
Primary splash damage does 3 shield damage and 3 hp damage, secondary must be a direct hit.
-Repeater secondary moves very slowly and with a parabola, is pushable and deals 30 damage + knocks down a group. Drains 50 ammo.

=----------------------

Recoil control - 10 points -- Weapons affected: E-11, Bowcaster, Repeater, Pistols, Disruptor.
Use of blasters has granted you with improved recoil control.
-Rate of fire times 1.25, times 1.50 for pistols.

=----------------------

Scoped weapon upgrade. - 10 points -- Weapons affected: Bowcaster.
Salvaging enemy weapon parts you were able to make a weapon scope.
-Your bowcaster's secondary fire is replaced with a scope for taking out long targets.
-The scope is nothing other than cg_fov set really low in order to zoom in.
-Bowcaster damage is upped by 10 DP/HP from whatever it was, while shooting from zoomed mode.

You should make cg_fov impossible to set under 80, Ace.

Scoped Weapon Upgrade 2 - 5 points -- weapons affected: E-11.
Preferring preciseness over spraying, you adjust your E-11 with a scope.
-Same as Bowcaster, primary shoots, secondary sets you in scoped mode.
-Enhanced damage from shooting from scoped mode to make it more attractive (a la bowcaster).

=-----------------------

Improved explosive ammunition - 8 points -- weapons affected: Rocket Launcher, Fc1 Flechette rifle.
Your demolition skill and your proficiency with heavy weapons are unmatched.
-Rocket launcher secondary enabled, locked on rockets now follow your enemies (faster than the current ones, do more damage) and hits do a lot of damage. Rockets can be pushed and shot down, though.
-Shotgun secondary available, launches 4 balls each doing 25 DP or HP damage on a direct hit, good for clearing multiple enemies.
Cooldowns: Rocket secondary and primary cooldowns are 5 seconds each respectively.

=-----------------------

Pistol Specialization - 7 points
Your frequent use of pistols has taught you how to dual-wield them with skill.
-Pistol dual-wield a la cultist_commando with increased damage (notice it's called a HEAVY pistol..)

=--------------------------------------_____________________________=


End of gunner skills.


Simple gadgets/upgrades:
__________________________________________________ __________


Armor added!


All points that are not allocated to a skill will act as armor points.

=-------------


Emergency medpack - 8 points
Emergency medipack that can be used to heal 30 HP, must be used in meditative position. Use from inventory.
Emergency Bacta-canister - 10 points
Emergency bacta canister can be used to heal 50 HP while standing still, use from inventory.

Medistation - 20 points
Thrown out of the inventory like the ammo generator we have now, with the model of the ingame medikit taht can be found scattered across maps, anyone that stands close to it will heal 15 HP every 3 seconds. The medipack has enough battery lifetime in it to last 60 seconds before it vanishes.

=-------------------------------

Endurance Training - 10 points
Higher run speed, about 15% higher.

More Gadgets to come

=-------------------------------__________________________________

Now I'll save my Lightsaber skill thoughts for another time, but here's what I think that some Force skills should look like:

Improved Force Jump - 10 points
Increases Force Jump jumpheight to 24x regular jump height, and increases speed at which you fly up. Speed forwards remains the same ofcourse.

=------------------------

Channel the Force - 10 points
When you meditate you regain Force Points faster.

=-----------------------

Force Wave/Circle Push - 8 points (Acts like level 4 push).
The ability to use Force Push all around you in a wave form. Nothing new needed, just the radius of Force Push enlarged to be 360 degrees :D.
=------------------------_______________________________________

End of Force skills


Lightsaber skills: (red for damage/stat increase/active, blue for passive, green for hybrid - only for the lightsaber part here, gun part was purely cosmetic :) might change later.)



=------------------------

Saber Defense system EXPLAINED/TWEAKED! - The

SBD 1: Allows only deflection.
SBD 2: Allows basic reflection.
SBD 3: Allows aimed reflection. 50% Reflection-towards-crosshair rate.

If you run, your current skill level drops by one. So when you run with SBD3 you only have SBD2.
=-------------------------


Jedi Defense: - 5 points -- Lightsaber.
The jedi can now deflect shots away in a 360 degree radius, back hits drain 50% more DP than normal 180-front hits.

Advanced Jedi Defense: - 8 points -- Lightsaber
The Jedi can now deflect shots in a 360 degree radius without the back damage penalty.

Works in all styles.

=------------------------

Jedi Deflection/Manual Deflection (MD) SKILL ADDED!: - 10 points -- Lightsaber

Jedi can now tap fake at the moment a blaster bolt hits them to manually deflect them at a random enemy in range.

Only thing that needs to be done is to make this skill buyable :D

=------------------------

Martial Arts Training - 5 points -- Lightsaber
Kick has a wider area of effect so you can kick people away much easier.

=------------------------

Dueler's Defense. -10 points -- Lightsaber
Ripostes have a chance of disarming an opponent between medium and high and mishap.

=-----------------------
Master Parry -15 points --Lightsaber
If a Jedi is low on DP and his enemy is about to perform a superbreak in a lock, the jedi can perform a riposte in the right direction to save himself from the superbreak but only if it is timed correctly and if the Jedi still has above 30FP.

=--To be continued.


Phew, gonna take a break again.

Darth Cariss
10-17-2006, 11:02 AM
I like a lot of Maxy's above ideas. They are mostly just code-based things that don't really require any new animation or graphics, which makes them not too hard to impliment, in theory. Though I still do think offensive gadgits and things like Flame Throwers would be good.

datguru
10-17-2006, 03:46 PM
Ya i love those ideas max :D

razorace
10-18-2006, 03:53 AM
reloading
It's doable. The reason why I haven't done that is because it would require a lot of programming to add something that isn't in a game by default. The question is if we really want it or not. An argument could be made that the Star Wars galaxy uses blasters vs our primative slugthrowers because they DON'T have to be reloaded. :)

Gun Skills
Good ideas, but do we want the accuracy skills directly associated with the individual weapons or not? Granted, we could have accuracy as various perks but those could be secondary to the weapons skill level rank.

Also we could add prereqs skills for getting certain weapons but I personally think that over-complicates things. I think the skill points invested in a weapon count both the physical cost of the weapon and the training effort to use it effectively.

Also, I think we need to limit the number of "exotic" weapons in the game. Blasters seem to be the stable of the SW galaxy for a reason. I'm willing to accept exotic weapons to a degree, they shouldn't be overpowered. For example, I'd kind of like to see the Demp turned into the sonic cannons used by the geoniosions.

As for scopes, that's actually a great idea. For weapons that have scopes, it really shouldn't be that hard to make their secondaries be the scope zoom in. I'll add a ticket for that. Do any weapons other than the pistol, blaster, bowcaster, and disruptor have scopes?

Armor
I like the idea of armor vs the shields that players currently use. I'll look into making armor a buyable skill. However, I should note that armor should be a pretty expensive skill since it allows players to last longer. Maybe "armor" should be whatever unallociated skill points the player has left over? I think MOTS used that technique. Plus this will give those players who don't upgrade their skills often at least SOMETHING for those extra earned points.

Shields
I vastly prefer the idea of armor over personal shields. I suggest we do everything in terms of armor. :)

Ammo supply
I don't really like that idea. It sounds too much like a magical device. I think players should have a set amount of ammo and that's it.

Medpacks
Sounds like a decent idea, but I suspect that forcing players into the meditation stance (for non-jedi) would just get them killed. I'm going to suggest that we just make the bacta tank a buyable item, which is an instant use, but gives a limited and slow health regeneration to the player.

Endurance Training
Not a bad idea, but it might have technical issues, I'm worried that it will be too bad to sync the animation to the movement rate if we do that.

Improved Force Jump
Do we want this as a perk or should it just be part of the Force Jump skill?

Channel the Force
I've been considering making one of the Lightsider's primary Force skills. However, I'm not sure what it should do beyond the meditation regeneration rate. I'm thinking that this should be a opposite of Force Rage, which will give the player faster regen and DP damage if they actively use it AND fight better than their opponent. Maybe better bolt reflection and higher mishaps for parries or something?

Maxstate
10-18-2006, 05:07 AM
It's doable. The reason why I haven't done that is because it would require a lot of programming to add something that isn't in a game by default. The question is if we really want it or not. An argument could be made that the Star Wars galaxy uses blasters vs our primative slugthrowers because they DON'T have to be reloaded. :)

You're right. I'm sure I personally want it since it just doesn't seen realistic that you can shoot 300 e-11 rounds in really quick succession without thinking twice. Even the vehicles have only so much ammo before they have to recharge.


Good ideas, but do we want the accuracy skills directly associated with the individual weapons or not? Granted, we could have accuracy as various perks but those could be secondary to the weapons skill level rank.

Well the "Blaster training" skills would just be needed to open up the weapons in the list, see I don't think someone with 40 skill knows how to handle a Rocket Launcher without getting training, just as how Jedi need to train saber Attack and Defense before they can use it correctly.

The accuracy skills are related to your position and not the guns themselves, if you are walking for example you will shoot much more precisely than if you were running. If you are crouching you will shoot even more precisely etc. etc. Those things can be bought with the skill :)


Also we could add prereqs skills for getting certain weapons but I personally think that over-complicates things. I think the skill points invested in a weapon count both the physical cost of the weapon and the training effort to use it effectively.
If it easens up the workload for you I'm all in for it, I'm currently trying to come up with ideas that will give us a great new experience but still keep the workload to a minimum. I thought up some of these ideas (like the force jump one) to be a bit more simpler so Hocks can train his skills too! There are a lot of tricky ones in my list but I don't need you to take them all in, just the ones we all think would benefit our game :)


Also, I think we need to limit the number of "exotic" weapons in the game. Blasters seem to be the stable of the SW galaxy for a reason. I'm willing to accept exotic weapons to a degree, they shouldn't be overpowered. For example, I'd kind of like to see the Demp turned into the sonic cannons used by the geoniosions.

Hmm that's easy to do I guess, we would just need some new sounds.


As for scopes, that's actually a great idea. For weapons that have scopes, it really shouldn't be that hard to make their secondaries be the scope zoom in. I'll add a ticket for that. Do any weapons other than the pistol, blaster, bowcaster, and disruptor have scopes?

The DEMP has a scope too and the repeater but I'm not sure about it.


I like the idea of armor vs the shields that players currently use. I'll look into making armor a buyable skill. However, I should note that armor should be a pretty expensive skill since it allows players to last longer. Maybe "armor" should be whatever unallociated skill points the player has left over? I think MOTS used that technique. Plus this will give those players who don't upgrade their skills often at least SOMETHING for those extra earned points.

The only reason I added shield ideas is because I was worried that you wouldn't like the armour ideas :D I think that sounds like a good deal altough less visual I think it might work.


I vastly prefer the idea of armor over personal shields. I suggest we do everything in terms of armor. :)

Hahaha great :Thumbsup:!


I don't really like that idea. It sounds too much like a magical device. I think players should have a set amount of ammo and that's it.

Okay.


Sounds like a decent idea, but I suspect that forcing players into the meditation stance (for non-jedi) would just get them killed. I'm going to suggest that we just make the bacta tank a buyable item, which is an instant use, but gives a limited and slow health regeneration to the player.

That's the thing you know, if they want to be healed they have to be vulnerable in order not to make the skill allpowerful and unbalanced ;)


Not a bad idea, but it might have technical issues, I'm worried that it will be too bad to sync the animation to the movement rate if we do that.

We could also just enable them to riposte power attacks to get out of the lock alltogether?


Do we want this as a perk or should it just be part of the Force Jump skill?

Indeed.. I would rather want it to be a perk because a lot of people have already gotten used to the current jump.


I've been considering making one of the Lightsider's primary Force skills. However, I'm not sure what it should do beyond the meditation regeneration rate. I'm thinking that this should be a opposite of Force Rage, which will give the player faster regen and DP damage if they actively use it AND fight better than their opponent. Maybe better bolt reflection and higher mishaps for parries or something?
I agree. You like my bolt deflection ideas? That would be so cool if they got in :D

Doctor Shaft
10-19-2006, 04:59 PM
So... a few force power ideas, along with some comments of my own.


[On power attack and making it parryable to avoid locks]

I rather like the feature of being able to force a lock for a kill. It adds an element to the game that makes players think when they're low on DP, instead of just trying to hang in there and hoping for a good parry. It also gives the offensive person a nice coup de grace moment, where they know they can go full tilt. Providing a defense against it... sure, but I'd prefer it was something that wasn't a guarentee. A Parry against it... as long as your idea for countering it isn't something that completely negates the effect it has now, reducing the lock into nothing more than a mistake or lack of skill on the defender's part.

[On "Channeling the Force"]

I was going to write all of these little ideas for using the various Force Powers for certain aspects, or how to jive with some of the ideas that Maxy had presented earlier. But I felt they were all falling short because OJP really doesn't seem like an ideal game to base on "Force Powers" that have separate abilities or the like. Rather, I think we're all kind of leaning towards introducing "Force Attributes" instead.

Force Push/Pull/Jump/Grip/Lightning/Speed/Absorb/Seeing already have a firm place in the game. They work, they function well. They should have their own attribute category. Then other abilities we "invent" can be introduced into other categories.

Previously, I had mentioned an idea of having users invest Skill Points into certain categories, and in order to unlock "The Dark Side", the user would have to spend even more points in certain areas to "reach" that point. So one would invest points in Push and Pull, and then choose to go "onward" and invest points in the Dark Side to have Lightning. But I guess that wouldn't really work out in the end. What would a light side user do with all those unspent points.

So instead, I think the system should be open, as it already is. But have certain powers with high costs than they currently have. Powers get placed into sections, and but certain powers would have higher cost ratings.

I think "Channeling the Force" should be a category, and we go about devising both a "Light" and "Dark" way of channeling. For the Dark Side, we have powers like Rage. For the Light... well, we're still thinking.


I've probably rewritten this post a million times, and I still don't know what I'm talking about. I just think we should think of more ideas that move away from the "Point and Shoot" philosophy. We already have enough of those.

The only problem I see with maxy's channel idea right now is that it's both "boring" to use, and might not see much utility in a duel, whereas the rage idea is usable any time.

Maxstate
10-19-2006, 05:05 PM
So... a few force power ideas, along with some comments of my own.


[On power attack and making it parryable to avoid locks]

I rather like the feature of being able to force a lock for a kill. It adds an element to the game that makes players think when they're low on DP, instead of just trying to hang in there and hoping for a good parry. It also gives the offensive person a nice coup de grace moment, where they know they can go full tilt. Providing a defense against it... sure, but I'd prefer it was something that wasn't a guarentee. A Parry against it... as long as your idea for countering it isn't something that completely negates the effect it has now, reducing the lock into nothing more than a mistake or lack of skill on the defender's part.

[On "Channeling the Force"]

I was going to write all of these little ideas for using the various Force Powers for certain aspects, or how to jive with some of the ideas that Maxy had presented earlier. But I felt they were all falling short because OJP really doesn't seem like an ideal game to base on "Force Powers" that have separate abilities or the like. Rather, I think we're all kind of leaning towards introducing "Force Attributes" instead.

Force Push/Pull/Jump/Grip/Lightning/Speed/Absorb/Seeing already have a firm place in the game. They work, they function well. They should have their own attribute category. Then other abilities we "invent" can be introduced into other categories.

Previously, I had mentioned an idea of having users invest Skill Points into certain categories, and in order to unlock "The Dark Side", the user would have to spend even more points in certain areas to "reach" that point. So one would invest points in Push and Pull, and then choose to go "onward" and invest points in the Dark Side to have Lightning. But I guess that wouldn't really work out in the end. What would a light side user do with all those unspent points.

So instead, I think the system should be open, as it already is. But have certain powers with high costs than they currently have. Powers get placed into sections, and but certain powers would have higher cost ratings.

I think "Channeling the Force" should be a category, and we go about devising both a "Light" and "Dark" way of channeling. For the Dark Side, we have powers like Rage. For the Light... well, we're still thinking.


I've probably rewritten this post a million times, and I still don't know what I'm talking about. I just think we should think of more ideas that move away from the "Point and Shoot" philosophy. We already have enough of those.

The only problem I see with maxy's channel idea right now is that it's both "boring" to use, and might not see much utility in a duel, whereas the rage idea is usable any time.
Yeah I get that alot, I start typing something that sounds great and while I read it it justs sounds like the worst idea ever. And yeah, channeling the force could become boring. I don't like rage because it reminds me too much of Base spamming, you would really have to work it out very extensively for it to work.

I'd rather see a kind of hybrid of a previous idea of someone here and your idea; overpowering Force powers. Getting a bit more effect from a force power when this and that factor is met. Circle push for example, "Force Wave", Razor likes it too :).

razorace
10-19-2006, 07:00 PM
[On power attack and making it parryable to avoid locks]
The current system makes parrying an attack fake prevent the saberlock. However, in terms of MP points this situation pretty much neutralizes the effects on each other. The blocker only gets -1 MP and the attacker gets 1 MP.

razorace
10-20-2006, 07:54 AM
In other news, I need more feedback on the skill point costs for the current skills. They need to be balanced more but I'm not sure what needs to be tweaked and by how much.

Maxstate
10-20-2006, 08:30 AM
In other news, I need more feedback on the skill point costs for the current skills. They need to be balanced more but I'm not sure what needs to be tweaked and by how much.

Jump:
Well as I said, I'm hoping you'll add that jump skill so we can have 4 buyable Jump skills:
-Jump 1 - 7 points
-Jump 2 - 5 Points
-Jump 3 - 4 points
-Jump 4 - 10 Points -- Jump 4 makes you jump faster and increases possible jump height to 24x regular jump height.

Push:
-Push 4 - 8 Points - Pushes everything around you in a circle. Good for blowing away projectiles and low DP/high mishap duelists if you need a break ;)
As I said, you need to use the Deathxx anims for push knockback Ace, we only have one right now and it's pretty boring.

Pull 1 - 8 points - Ability to pull items and weapons from the ground to you.
Pull 2 - 5 points - Ability to pull weapons from gunners if they are more than 20 points under your skill level. Only able to pull if your crosshair is pointing at them and they are running or jumping. You can pull the guns from NPC's by aiming and pulling no matter what.
Pull 3 - 5 points - You can trip running people over by aiming at them and pulling them. They do not fly towards you.

I like the rest of the force points :)

But I think that the jetpack needs to either be capped for fuel and given a cooldown or it needs to become a burst-controlled jetpack.
Also, if we get the pistol skills in there I'd like the pistol to cost more. Since it's a great weapon and you have unlimited ammo, if you get more damage and/or dual pistols then they're going to be a force to be reckoned with.

Doctor Shaft
10-20-2006, 05:02 PM
Honestly, I think points isn't all that will "fix" the current Force system.

I'm a supporter of being able to "choose what you like" in terms of Force Powers, but I think that the system would benefit more from having a "tier" system, in that you can't access certain tiers until you've invested points in a variety of categories.

The problem we have now with the powers is that, especially in the beginning rounds, players can quickly specialize in high use powers, like lightning. While this can quite easily be countered by either also investing in lightning, or matching with absorb, it kind of detracts from the game.

Last night's test was fun, and I thought it was hilarious getting shocked and then shot to death on the floor. That feature should remain, as far as I'm concerned. The problem is that it's a feature that happens too soon, or at too low a level, to the point that players can opt to circumvent the saber system and just specialize in strong powers to overwhelm everyone, other Force Powers be darned.


By forcing players to invest in certain power "trees" you can prevent the 'uber-tweaking'. Granted, we're all still going to pick what is most effective and efficient, but it would create a better feeling if everyone wasn't "The Dark Lord of the Sith that can shoot lightning... but can't jump over a crate or block a Force Push."


I'm currently thinking of writing up a rough draft for categories and tiers... but we're still short on ideas for other Force Powers. Also, would we actually WANT to have the powers tiered and categorized? I think it's a good idea. I think buying different saber styles, etc., and having everything lead into one another would be a great system. But that would require more work... and ideas.

There's always a downside. :)

razorace
10-20-2006, 05:46 PM
Max's last post

I'd rather avoid going to a 3 tiered skill system if we could. We do get three levels of differences as is. Which is quite a bit to work with already. If we want to make Force powers more powerful, we could shift the level 3 stuff into level 2 and then expand level 3.

But I suppose we could look into how complicated it would be. I think Azymn did it for FM3. We'll have to check that out. Submit a bug ticket task to remind me to check it out.

Also, is there are particular reason why you want Pull to trip people rather than pull them towards the user?

As for the jetpack, I don't think it's too bad at the moment. I've found that it's really easy to get killed by reflected bolts or missiles because you don't have any DP while in the air.

Finally, we'll have to see about the pistol aim stuff. I just haven't gotten to it yet.

razorace
10-20-2006, 05:57 PM
Shaft's Last post
I'm still on the fence about having prereqs to powers. It looks like adding prereqs isn't too complicated by it might get really tricky if we aren't careful.

razorace
10-20-2006, 06:02 PM
I'm going to suggest that maybe ALL Force powers should have some initial prereq. I'd rather not have to create a 'Force Sensitive' skill, so I'm going to suggest that Force Seeing level 1 be the prereq for all the other Force powers. That way, you have to invest in at least one level of Force Seeing before you can access other players.

Doctor Shaft
10-20-2006, 06:16 PM
Well, that's sort of what I meant. The "pre-reqs" don't need to be complicated or overblown. Just some kind of control.

The idea being that players should at least have invested points in mundane powers before they become "Shock Masters".

If I had to make a quick example, it would be like this:

Force Grip: Grip players with the Force violently.
Pre-Reqs: Player has invested points in at least four different powers in whatever "tier" we'd place Grip in.

The way this would work would keep it simple. Players wouldn't have to unload tons of points into push or jump just to get access. Instead, they'd have to have at least filled out a certain number of powers from a category.

So if a category of powers had five Force powers in it, And Grip was in the "next category" (all theoretically speaking), then the pre-req would be something like "invest points in at least 3 powers in Tier 1". For lightning, it would be something like 4 powers. So they can still choose to forgo something, but have to invest elsewhere.

This way, early game choices wouldn't introduce "Shock Masters" or "Super Absorbers" early on. Instead, everyone would have a more "well-rounded" model, and as the game progresses, more powers would appear in battle.


If powers were put into something like three tiers, the requirements could be based on this:

Tier 1 powers: Instant access... all neutral powers.
Tier 2 powers: Light and Dark abilities... mostly passive abilities (rage, protect)
Tier 3 powers: Abilities that are cast upon others, both Light and Dark. Lightning. Etc. Advanced saber abilities (maybe).

Each level of power would be "granted" after a player had filled enough from the other tiers. 4 from Tier 1. 2 or 3 from tier 2 (depending on how much was there), and then Tier 3 is open season afterward. All you have to do is front the initial cost of the power (which would be high).

So, if a player really wanted lightning early on, they could conceivably do that. But it will be more expensive to get their, than it would be to advance other, earlier powers into higher levels. So there's a higher trade than there currently exists now.

razorace
10-20-2006, 10:26 PM
ok, lets talk specifics then. To start, I suggest that we make ALL force powers (except possibly saber attack) rely on the player having at least one level in Force Seeing. As such, Force See level 1 would be the equivilent of the skill cost of being Force sensitive.

Beyond that, maybe require a certain number of ranks in neutral powers before the offensive dark side powers become available?

Sushi_CW
10-21-2006, 11:21 AM
I like this prereq idea. :)

Oh yeah, one more thing... right now, you can shift all of your powers around at will without having to die first. This could be potentially unbalancing: imagine a player who shifts everything to lightning to zap someone, then shifts those points to jump to quickly get somewhere, then shifts them back to lightning. Basically, they get all force powers for the price of one, provided they're willing to take 3 seconds to open the force menu and shift them around. Are we OK with this?

UDM
10-21-2006, 12:08 PM
Actually I did suggest the exact same thing a few months ago heh

I liked the idea then, and still like it now. If you guys have played System Shock 2, that's exactly how this model works. Very good system that's flexible, yet provides balance

And sushi makes a good point too. I have an idea to this. When players increase their attributes, changes only take place 60 seconds later, upon hitting the "Apply Changes" button on the profile menu. This prevents players from exploiting the system by changing their attributes on the fly as and when they like it

In addition, I have a suggestion. Could we have it such that depending on which skills/force powers we have more points in, our title varies? For example, if we invest all our points in saber combat, then our title becomes Jedi Guardian. If force powers are our forte, then we become Jedi Consular. If force powers skill points and saber combat SP equates more or less the same, then we are Jedi Sentinel.

Similarly, if we have like a lot of points in the pistol/gadgets section, then we can be called Scoundrel. If we have lots of points in the heavy weapons section, then we can be called Soldier. What's even cooler is if our title appears next to our nicknames. So it'd be like UDM <Jedi Guardian>

I just had an interesting thought from this. What would happen if we pitted 2 Jedis against each other - one with no force powers, but maxed out saber skills; another Jedi has no saber skills, but 1337 force powers. The reason why this cannot workout in vanilla JKA is because force will always be 1337er than the saber, esp with lightning and grip

So I've got an idea. Maybe we can have additional skills for the Guardian, like Force Resistance and Acrobatics (thus Force Jump does not determine your acrobatics). The higher your resistance, the more you can use DP to resist force attacks. The higher your Acrobatics, the less the moves will eat up force power eg. wall running, wall clinging etc. That would make for some very interesting fights, and at the same time no character becomes all mighty

Some suggestions that belong to the non-Force section ie. saber skills

Force Resistance
Acrobatics
Strength (determines how much you increase enemy mishap only)

Doctor Shaft
10-21-2006, 02:12 PM
ok, lets talk specifics then. To start, I suggest that we make ALL force powers (except possibly saber attack) rely on the player having at least one level in Force Seeing. As such, Force See level 1 would be the equivilent of the skill cost of being Force sensitive.

Beyond that, maybe require a certain number of ranks in neutral powers before the offensive dark side powers become available?


Agreed then. I think this is a good idea. This way, we don't have Jedi running around who can't see who's coming. It's a power that is oft ignored. Might as well force people to include it at least a little bit. Heck, you can't even finish certain single player levels without having Force Seeing. This would also prevent folks from starting a low level game with tons of other powers, hence putting gunners on the "trash" list since they'd have no early options to defend against being constantly pushed and pulled from afar.



Specifics: I'm bad at this stuff, but let's see.

[Neutral Power Tier] - Pre-req Force Seeing
All neutral powers would fit in this category. This is effectively Tier 1. The only pre-requisite for taking powers in Tier 1 is a single level of Force Seeing. The following powers would be available in the neutral tier section (based on what powers we currently have available).

Jump/Push/Pull/Speed/Seeing (five powers total)

[Passive Force Power Tier] - Pre-Reqs - 3 Neutral Power Tiers initiated.
Passive Force Powers of both the Light and Dark Side would go here. This would include powers such as Rage, Protect, Heal, Mind Trick, or anything else we come up with. Basically, status effect powers would be here. Rational being that mid-tier Jedi and Sith had access to pretty neat abilities, such as Maul's rage and Obi-Wan's constant patience.

[Final Tier] Pre-Reqs - 4 Neutral Powers, 2 Passive Powers (theoretical)
The Final Tier would be wear all the "ultimate" abilities we see from the movies would go. This would essentially be the "Hero" tier, where the greatest villains and heros tested their mettle against one another. Force Lightning, with its terrible abilities, would be here. Any other Force Powers, like Drain, Grip, etc., would also be featured here. Any light side powers we invent, even stuff like Absorb could be fitted in here (absorb is pretty powerful in OJP at the moment... I was able to completely nullify Force attacks with it, even if it is draining).

And there you have it. In terms of how much each power would cost initially, I've thought of an initial system, but only testing and more imput would create excellent values.

Tier 1 -
Force Seeing - 5 points (become Force sensitive)
Force Jump - Max's 7 point seems okay... encourage Jedi mobility
Force Pull/Push - 8 point start is fine.
Force Speed - 7 again... what use does this power currently have?

Tier 2 -
All passive Force Powers start with a cost of 10... progressive increases are much less... like half the cost. This was people choose a power in the beginning of matches, and tend to stick with it, as opposed to quickly hording what they can get. Final level of powe would again cost 10.

Tier 3 -
12 point start... then steep decrease as they increase the power. Final level of course would be high cost again of 12.

I'll make another post with Force Power ideas I've recently had cross my mind.

JRHockney*
10-21-2006, 03:06 PM
I like this prereq idea. :)

Oh yeah, one more thing... right now, you can shift all of your powers around at will without having to die first. This could be potentially unbalancing: imagine a player who shifts everything to lightning to zap someone, then shifts those points to jump to quickly get somewhere, then shifts them back to lightning. Basically, they get all force powers for the price of one, provided they're willing to take 3 seconds to open the force menu and shift them around. Are we OK with this?

Actually, they could do the same thing between lives anyways. I suggested this because if some did change and start spamming force powers between lives, the other player would be screwed and unable to adjust powers to block before he's dead. While this might make the spammer able to adjust his powers faster, it also gives the defender a chance to switch as well.

even stuff like Absorb could be fitted in here (absorb is pretty powerful in OJP at the moment... I was able to completely nullify Force attacks with it, even if it is draining).

Im not sure if absorb should be here. This is the power that should be used to defeat force spammers. The drain on absorb is fast enough and you have to turn it on or off to even use. I'd say that at least level 1 should be available for beginners. That way you don't have all the new players on a server getting completely owned by even moderate point level players who spam force powers. Hmm, in fact, why dont we make it so that you cant have more than level 1 per tier?

Also, unless we can come up with a rational movielike usage for protection and drain, they probably wont be in the game because they werent in the movies.

I do kind of like this tier idea overall though.

Doctor Shaft
10-21-2006, 03:20 PM
More Force Power Suggestions (Recently Edited Too)

Based on the tier suggestions, I'd "place" some of the powers in the imaginary tiers.


Force Drain -----> Shroud of the Dark Side (Tier 3)

The Dark Side clouds everything. A big theme in the Prequel Movies. The Jedi constantly complain of their connection to the Force being somewhat clouded, or even weakened. A user of the Shroud weakens their targets connection to the Force, causing a draining effect against the opponent, and reducing the effectiveness of their attacks temporarily.

Use:
A spell cast just like Drain. This can either be a cone like "shot", or we could modify it to act like a passive field that quickly shoots out. Field or shot lasts one second. Drain user cannot reinitiate the cloud until after a 60 second cooldown (no constant shroud barrages). Opponents attack level is also temporarily drained for a few seconds (5 seconds max). Gunners find their aiming skewed and weapon damage decreased. Can be countered by target's Force Sense level (having it turned on during casting). Other counters include Battle Meditation (since it would reincrease DP damage per swing).

Effect:
The Shroud user loses a sizeable FP chunk (50-30-20). Upon use, the target's Mishap Meter shoots up towards critical levels, allowing for an early disarm, heavy bounce from a parry, knockdown, or the like. DPs are also somewhat drained (10-20-25 pts).

(Lord Sidious quickly surprises and coup de graces several Jedi Masters that were considered master-swordsman. Perhaps they're senses were clouded by the quick surprised attack)


Force Heal ------------------> Force Meditation (Tier 2)

Qui-Gon Jinn fought valiantly against the young and able Darth Maul. After being tossed around, kicked, and tested for lengths of time, Jinn is given a brief respite to rest. Slouching to his knees, he meditates, regaining his strength.

Use:
User meditates (via using the power). During meditation, user cannot Dodge, block Force Pushes, or defend against any other distractions. Activating other powers during meditation immediately ceases the benefits of the meditation. With each use, the players FP and DP must be above "Red" level.(Jedi has to be at least somewhat conscious of his connection... no quick redliner saves).

Effect:
During the duration of use, the users FPs regenerate more rapidly. In addition, HP also slowly regenerates, though at a slower rate than normal FP regen.



Force Protect ------------------------> Battle Meditation (Tier 2)

A Jedi's strengths flows through the Force. When using this power, the user gathers strength through allowing the Force to flow through them, increasing certain attributes in battle during use.

Use:
Jedi activates the power. There is an initial cost (40/30/20), followed by constant drain. The aura can be countered or shut off the following ways: Being successfully attacked by the Force (Knockdown from Push/Pull, Lightning, Grip), knockdown from explosives or shock weapons, blaster shots successfully landing (breaching Dodge), a Mishap occurring (disarm, knockdown), or due to poor performance (4 consecutive hits unblocked or parried). FP constantly drains while in use. Once FP pool reaches 40%, the power can no longer be used. User gains FP bonus for every mishap he incurs against his opponent, or successful victory against an opponent while turned on.

Effect:
The Jedi's defenses are raised while the aura is active. The duration and success is based on performance. While active, the Jedi gains a brief DP (20/30/40) bonus due to their connection with the Force, and their successful blocks and parries increase a users instance of mishap sooner (more mishap added to opponent per successful block). In addition, blaster deflection is increased in efficiency. During this time, Jedi's FP slowly decreases, but is given a defense bonus as well (20%/30%/40%).

(Obi-Wan Kenobi shows us that he truly trusts in the Force throughout the films. Rocket blasts distract him, but upon the initial hit he seems to leap away unharmed. While he is certainly not immortal, he shows a toughness and resilience that many Jedi lack. During fighting, he quickly defends and against and disarms the might Grievous in single combat).


Force Mind Trick ----------------> Battlemind (yeah, I'm ripping off d20)

Using the Force as an ally, the user briefly steals himself against his opponent, allowing him to use his lightsaber abilities more effectively against them. Through the focus of this power, one's morale and fighting spirit is augmented.

Use:
Cast against one opponent, or several based on level, This attack is similar to rage, but is rather a more focused version that also costs more, and affects only the number of opponents the user can focus on (1 at level 1, 2 within a field of vision (no aim), and several at the highest level). The effect is countered by having at least Force Seeing lvl2 activated before the casting. Battlemind is also countered after user is "distracted" (see Battle Meditation).

Effects:
The attacks of the caster are briefly augmented to cause more DP damage per hit against the person it is used against. Speed of saber swings, etc., are not increased. DP augmentation is increased based on level (5%/10%/15%). FP drain is also based on level (40/30/20).


That's all I have for now. I'm busy ripping off of d20 Force Powers as well. Many of them aren't helpful, but the names are useful, and some would work well, I think.

Criticize away. :)

Maxstate
10-21-2006, 03:25 PM
I like this prereq idea. :)

Oh yeah, one more thing... right now, you can shift all of your powers around at will without having to die first. This could be potentially unbalancing: imagine a player who shifts everything to lightning to zap someone, then shifts those points to jump to quickly get somewhere, then shifts them back to lightning. Basically, they get all force powers for the price of one, provided they're willing to take 3 seconds to open the force menu and shift them around. Are we OK with this?
I thought about this, we might solve it by taking the "buy area" idea that many games have. First one was CS I think, Battlefront has it too. I don't know if it's possible, but we would have glowly/lighted areas around the map where you can walk into and stand in to change your points.

Doctor Shaft
10-21-2006, 03:32 PM
Im not sure if absorb should be here. This is the power that should be used to defeat force spammers. The drain on absorb is fast enough and you have to turn it on or off to even use. I'd say that at least level 1 should be available for beginners. That way you don't have all the new players on a server getting completely owned by even moderate point level players who spam force powers. Hmm, in fact, why dont we make it so that you cant have more than level 1 per tier?

Also, unless we can come up with a rational movielike usage for protection and drain, they probably wont be in the game because they werent in the movies.

I do kind of like this tier idea overall though.

You have a good point here. Absorb should probably be more of a neutral power, in that sense. Something that everyone can use, since as they get stronger in the Force, they would be more able to "nullify" one another's attacks.

Why not balance this power by making it Tier 1, but simply putting a very high cost on its use (initial cost 8 or 10... subsequent levels 20 and 30).

This way, if a light side user didn't want to use the dark side, they could opt for a much more powerful Absorb ability.

Maxstate
10-21-2006, 03:38 PM
You have a good point here. Absorb should probably be more of a neutral power, in that sense. Something that everyone can use, since as they get stronger in the Force, they would be more able to "nullify" one another's attacks.

Why not balance this power by making it Tier 1, but simply putting a very high cost on its use (initial cost 8 or 10... subsequent levels 20 and 30).

This way, if a light side user didn't want to use the dark side, they could opt for a much more powerful Absorb ability.
(I liked your previous ideas)

I think Absorb should be a universal power that nullifies all force power attacks up to a level. Allowing them only to work if the opponent is at high mishap/low DP. This makes weak and struggling Jedi vulnerable to Force, makes for good finishers and even better realism.

I also think skill should have to do with it but I can't come up with anything now.

Doctor Shaft
10-21-2006, 03:45 PM
(I liked your previous ideas)

I think Absorb should be a universal power that nullifies all force power attacks up to a level. Allowing them only to work if the opponent is at high mishap/low DP. This makes weak and struggling Jedi vulnerable to Force, makes for good finishers and even better realism.

I also think skill should have to do with it but I can't come up with anything now.


Agreed, but I still think it should be a power that is both turned on and drains FP rapidly. This would be the "skill" equation. If Absorb simply nullified attacks automatically, all the time, then it elimnates the need for opposing push and pull scores that are currently in place. Might as well just buy absorb.

Basically, if opponents fight and the attacker manages to "sneak in" a Force Push, and the other user doesn't have the defense for it, good on them. If the defender uses Absorb at the right time, then they get the bonus of having defended against the attack entirely, and absorbing the blow. Also, they wouldn't be stunned, so they can follow through with the attack while the push user still has to wait for the cool down.

razorace
10-21-2006, 05:30 PM
Force Drain -----> Shroud of the Dark Side (Tier 3)
Force Heal ------------------> Force Meditation (Tier 2)
Force Protect ------------------------> Battle Meditation (Tier 2)
Force Mind Trick ----------------> Battlemind (yeah, I'm ripping off d20)
Maybe some of those powers might have do better as the higher level component of other powers? For example:
Shroud of the Dark Side -> Force Rage
Battlemind -> Channeling the Force

Doctor Shaft
10-21-2006, 06:56 PM
Maybe some of those powers might have do better as the higher level component of other powers? For example:
Shroud of the Dark Side -> Force Rage
Battlemind -> Channeling the Force

You're on to something here. It certainly would reduce the need of having 30 different powers, all with power slots (some of which would be, admittedly, pretty useless initially).

If they were the higher component, then you could simply choose the arbitrary number for each effect. You'd always get what you paid for, and power selection would even be predictable (User goes down the Rage Path, or User Goes down the Channeling of the Force Path, etc).

razorace
10-23-2006, 05:08 AM
So, I've gotten a basic wrist flamethrower working. Should we treat it like a weapon or like a item?

razorace
10-23-2006, 05:45 AM
Also, about Bacta, I'm trying to come up with a realistic way to do it but I can't come up with something yet. Realistically any sort of shot should kick in pretty quickly and probably last quite a while. However, for gameplay reasons, I can understand if we'd want to limit it's effect (maybe blood stream injection of bacta wears off quickly). Any suggestions?

Maxstate
10-23-2006, 10:30 AM
Also, about Bacta, I'm trying to come up with a realistic way to do it but I can't come up with something yet. Realistically any sort of shot should kick in pretty quickly and probably last quite a while. However, for gameplay reasons, I can understand if we'd want to limit it's effect (maybe blood stream injection of bacta wears off quickly). Any suggestions?

I think maybe more potent or more uses should be buyable for starters, I'd like to see it work as something that heals you over time. Like 15 HP every 3 seconds for 15 seconds? It shouldn't be instaheal. Jedi Heal I think should work on the same principle and I also think that it should only be usable after/when you meditate.

Nice job on the flamethrower, can't wait to use it :D
It should be an item I think, would bring more use to the inventory again. Unless making it a weapon is easier for ya.

razorace
10-23-2006, 04:21 PM
We do have two versions of the bacta tanks. A normal one and a large one.

JRHockney*
10-23-2006, 06:05 PM
Nice job on the flamethrower, can't wait to use it
It should be an item I think, would bring more use to the inventory again. Unless making it a weapon is easier for ya.


Hmm, unless the flamethrower has some other use other than killing people, I think it should be a weapon.

Idea: since there's no repeater in the movies, what would you guys think about using the clone rifle that MB2 uses?

razorace
10-23-2006, 06:16 PM
I suppose we could.

Darth Cariss
10-24-2006, 02:50 AM
I think the Flame Thrower should be an item, or it's own button (Like MBII, Special Button 1).

Sushi_CW
10-24-2006, 09:03 PM
I say weapon.

JRHockney*
10-25-2006, 12:51 AM
I'm more inclined to say weapon as well just because I'm not sure if constant access to it is a good idea in terms of balance. MB2 sort of does it that way, but thats only together with a pistol. I mean we're talking in back and forth between rocket launchers (or another power weapon) and the flame thrower here. Also it just seems that a gun that kill people as you shoot them is more of a weapon. I don't know, we need to be careful on this one.

razorace
10-25-2006, 04:11 AM
I agree. Flamethrowers are very much an anti-jedi weapon and need to be treated very carefully. Personally, I've been thinking that using the flamethrower drains your jetpack fuel. That way mercs can't overspam the flamethrower without sacrificing their ability to use their jetpack.

razorace
11-02-2006, 04:34 AM
It's been brought up that it might be fun/interesting to have a player's experience points transfer between maps/map_restarts. What do you guys think about that?

plasticrat
11-02-2006, 10:09 AM
thats a great idea razor, especially if map rotations are like 30 to 40 mins, oh, and I think the flamethrower should be an item, it seems to be that sort of accessible thing.

Sushi_CW
11-02-2006, 10:24 AM
I'd be fine with letting the points reset after each map. It ensures that all players are on equal footing, at least in the beginning of a map rotation.

Wytchking
11-02-2006, 12:27 PM
Force Drain -----> Shroud of the Dark Side (Tier 3)

The Dark Side clouds everything. A big theme in the Prequel Movies. The Jedi constantly complain of their connection to the Force being somewhat clouded, or even weakened. A user of the Shroud weakens their targets connection to the Force, causing a draining effect against the opponent, and reducing the effectiveness of their attacks temporarily.

Use:
A spell cast just like Drain. This can either be a cone like "shot", or we could modify it to act like a passive field that quickly shoots out. Field or shot lasts one second. Drain user cannot reinitiate the cloud until after a 60 second cooldown (no constant shroud barrages). Opponents attack level is also temporarily drained for a few seconds (5 seconds max). Gunners find their aiming skewed and weapon damage decreased. Can be countered by target's Force Sense level (having it turned on during casting). Other counters include Battle Meditation (since it would reincrease DP damage per swing).

Effect:
The Shroud user loses a sizeable FP chunk (50-30-20). Upon use, the target's Mishap Meter shoots up towards critical levels, allowing for an early disarm, heavy bounce from a parry, knockdown, or the like. DPs are also somewhat drained (10-20-25 pts).

(Lord Sidious quickly surprises and coup de graces several Jedi Masters that were considered master-swordsman. Perhaps they're senses were clouded by the quick surprised attack)
I personally don't like the sound of shroud of the darkside. What about something more along the lines of DF2's force throw as used by Darth Vader? It would require you to add more throwable objects to maps (random placing?) but it could work like this:

Level 1: A delay before the object moves
Level 2: No delay
Level 3: Faster object movement/Multiple objects

Perhaps put a red glow around the object so the opponent knows it's coming and make it pushable. If it does hit it could do some damage and knock them into a parry or you could make it so they dodge it.

Maxstate
11-02-2006, 02:01 PM
I personally don't like the sound of shroud of the darkside. What about something more along the lines of DF2's force throw as used by Darth Vader? It would require you to add more throwable objects to maps (random placing?) but it could work like this:

Level 1: A delay before the object moves
Level 2: No delay
Level 3: Faster object movement/Multiple objects

Perhaps put a red glow around the object so the opponent knows it's coming and make it pushable. If it does hit it could do some damage and knock them into a parry or you could make it so they dodge it.

I suggested this long ago, too much coding/not worth it.

razorace
11-02-2006, 09:21 PM
Unfortunately, most maps don't have enough throwable objects to make it worth while.

Doctor Shaft
11-02-2006, 09:41 PM
Two cents to add on the subject as well.

Jedi Knight had the Force Throw ability in game. I've found that no matter what, Force Throw has always been a wonky power at best.

The objects thing was always an obstacle. The other problem was how to counter it. In JK, you couldn't counter it, so in certain maps, Force Throw was king. Just constantly spam it, and people died because there were so many objects being tossed around.

JA could conceivably have a counter, but I could just picture people either always using Throw because of how useful it might be, or never using it because restrictions make it too clunky to be worthwhile.

A cool concept, but in practice it would always be a burden.

UDM
11-03-2006, 04:20 AM
I really like the idea, but JKA has crap ragdoll physics, and on top of that, it isn't optimized to have objects movable in real time (I think)

Too bad JKA wasn't built on the Doom 3 engine

ensiform
11-03-2006, 03:00 PM
I really like the idea, but JKA has crap ragdoll physics, and on top of that, it isn't optimized to have objects movable in real time (I think)

Too bad JKA wasn't built on the Doom 3 engine

Too bad D3: Jedi / Q4: Jedi didn't get off too far other than a couple of concepts :/

razorace
11-03-2006, 06:23 PM
It's not a big deal. You don't need ragdoll to make throwable objects/items work.

ensiform
11-03-2006, 07:43 PM
Yeah but, if they are part of the worldspawn they will never move.

razorace
11-03-2006, 07:56 PM
Right, but objects aren't a part of the worldspawn unless they were just designed as part of the map geometry.

This means we're not really going to be able to have parts of the wall pull off and fly at people, but I'm guessing that would be the case in the Doom 3 engine as well.

Of course we could always just make new maps with the needed parts.

ensiform
11-04-2006, 12:34 AM
Srsly, I've been running around in CoOp a lot lately in Enhanced and the freaking Skill system is pissing me off when it suddenly loses skill and eventually goes negative, u rly need to fix dat. :(

UDM
11-04-2006, 03:57 AM
In Doom 3, if you spawned an object with mass eg. boxes, that's the way they'd react. The gravity gun makes a huge difference to interactivity with the environment in Resurrection of Evil

Which is why I think it's a bad idea to have this in JKA. It'll be like having very static meshes flying about the map, and will look fugly. At least without ragdoll code

Maxstate
11-04-2006, 11:17 AM
Well this has already been done in a map called "fearis" but that's just parts of the map flying in a scripted path.

I'd rather see NPC's be able to collide with each other and depending on hit speed, knock each other over.

ensiform
11-04-2006, 11:40 AM
In Doom 3, if you spawned an object with mass eg. boxes, that's the way they'd react. The gravity gun makes a huge difference to interactivity with the environment in Resurrection of Evil

Which is why I think it's a bad idea to have this in JKA. It'll be like having very static meshes flying about the map, and will look fugly. At least without ragdoll code

ragdoll is not what causes those effects, its JKA's extra physics system that already supports stuff like that *if* they are real entities, DOOM 3 can't just do that to the world either.

JRHockney*
11-04-2006, 11:52 PM
One thing that I would still like to see in this point system is buyable soldier NPCs kind of like FM3 has except they would better done and maybe follow basic orders. I'm not sure if we have time before the next build to make them, but unfortunately, Razor's probably the only one who can successfully code them (aside from maybe Ensiform) and he said this may be his last build :(

If we were to make them, they should probably be buyable for 50 points each so players have to earn them and have no more than maybe 4 max (unless you think we can handle more without lag or whatever).

Also, can somebody who has 0.0.9p post a link to it? I dont see any link on this forum and I still can't get my code to compile.

razorace
11-05-2006, 05:08 AM
Unfortunately, I don't think the NPC code is up to the task of doing something like that. NPCs simply can't follow the player as well as a TABBot could. Maybe if we had the time to overhaul the NPC navigation code but I don't see it happening in the amount of time I have left.

As for new version, I updated the link in the 'enhanced 0.1.0 is close' thread.

JRHockney*
11-05-2006, 12:10 PM
I'm fine with a tabbot following the player around too, but it would be better if those tabbots dont take up a player slot because it could take up server space really fast. They probably could follow orders better though.

Maxstate
11-05-2006, 01:41 PM
That sounds like a really dull feature to me, sorry.
Plus, if I wanted to play Forcemod, I wouldn't be here right now ;D.

Lets get some gadgets and weapon upgrade skills, or some lightsaber perks buyable from the profile screen. It's all about the vision of selection, we need more things to attract people by letting them have choices so they can't pick everything they want and use it in one go.

The flamethrower is a good example of such a thing, as is Razor's choice to make everything buyable from Profile. But how about instead of buying extra ammo, one can buy upgrades for his weaponry that have to do with damage, rate of fire, scopes, appendages/secondary fire etc. etc. I don't see it being THAT hard.

I've come to realise that I can live without saber perks and such, they aren't what OJP really needs right now even if they would be a really nice addition.
I'd rather see gun upgrades, more gadgets that use existing effects and Force powers getting different effects. Or just more Force powers like the amount Mysteries of the Sith had?

Well at the end of the day it's all about choice, if we can fill up the profile menu with bubbles that are worth buying, things that will differentiate MY character from yours, I think we would have lots more to show for. (don't get me wrong, we already have loads. The RPG mainframe is very excited about 0.1.0 for one)

JRHockney*
11-05-2006, 03:34 PM
That sounds like a really dull feature to me, sorry.
Plus, if I wanted to play Forcemod, I wouldn't be here right now ;D.

Dull feature?! This is one of the cooler parts of FM3, plus our bots are a heck of alot smarter than FM3 bots. You also can't really order around FM3 bots very well and I'm sure we could make our bots do that.

I also think that MB2 sabers should be an option as well that is selectable. I really think they make fights look better and alot of people really like them. Of course we might have to modify them so they have slightly longer trials for attackfakes/power feints (or whatever we're calling them now). At the very least, somebody who actually knows what their doing should make a MB2 saber patch for 0.1.0. I tried to add in the code originally and it didn't go so well :p

razorace
11-05-2006, 04:41 PM
Its seems like someone was working on that saber rendering system a while ago but they disappeared.

Maxstate
11-05-2006, 06:05 PM
Yeah okay whatever, you'll get last say in this anyway, I'm sure :p

...need more buyable skills....must...have..more....bubbles..to...click on!

UDM
11-05-2006, 11:03 PM
Well at the end of the day it's all about choice, if we can fill up the profile menu with bubbles that are worth buying, things that will differentiate MY character from yours, I think we would have lots more to show for. (don't get me wrong, we already have loads. The RPG mainframe is very excited about 0.1.0 for one)

QFT!!!!!!!!!!!!

I want to be able to greatly differentiate my character. The problem with JKA base is that...there's just no differentiation. Most Dark characters will choose Grip n Lightning. Most Light characters (if there are any, to begin with) will choose Heal and...um ok I think that's about it...Persuade too maybe. It's so standardised, you'd expect to see that most of the time in a full force server. It'd be so cool if everytime you enter the game, your gameplay experience is different because of your character customisation

JRHockney*
11-06-2006, 01:59 AM
Since alot of players want more bubbles to click on, we should also probably bring back another light side force power as well. Probably mindtrick would be the best one to bring back since it was still a fairly functional force power. I was uncomfortable with getting rid of so many to begin with since new players might think we're cutting them short. We should be thinking of some other options as well having to do with force powers.

Rage could prbably be brought back as well with some differences. It would make you move fast again and maybe do 1.25 times more damage. As a trade off, your parries would only reduce damage by 1/2 and your mishap meter would go up faster for getting parried. The levels would be based around how fast it drains.

I also had an idea for protection. Maybe make it do that auto push for rockets and granades since not everyone likes that feature *coughs*Lathain*coughs* :p The levels could be based on how much it costs to auto push those or maybe what it can push. Maybe at level 3, you can block blaster bolts in melee for a huge cost like vader did in episode 5.

I still like that tabbot or NPC idea above too btw.

Maxstate
11-06-2006, 03:19 AM
@UDM : Ya.

Since alot of players want more bubbles to click on, we should also probably bring back another light side force power as well. Probably mindtrick would be the best one to bring back since it was still a fairly functional force power. I was uncomfortable with getting rid of so many to begin with since new players might think we're cutting them short. We should be thinking of some other options as well having to do with force powers.

Rage could prbably be brought back as well with some differences. It would make you move fast again and maybe do 1.25 times more damage. As a trade off, your parries would only reduce damage by 1/2 and your mishap meter would go up faster for getting parried. The levels would be based around how fast it drains.

I also had an idea for protection. Maybe make it do that auto push for rockets and granades since not everyone likes that feature *coughs*Lathain*coughs* :p The levels could be based on how much it costs to auto push those or maybe what it can push. Maybe at level 3, you can block blaster bolts in melee for a huge cost like vader did in episode 5.

I still like that tabbot or NPC idea above too btw.

Yes!

I really like the idea of autopush only working with protect like this:

-Level 1 - 8 points - Perequisite level 1 sense : 1 Autopush every 5 seconds.
Drains regular sized Dp chunk and heightens mishap for 1/4.
Must be standing still to use.
(Passive power)

-Level 2 - 5 points - Autopushing can be done as soon as the first one is done. Drains only DP chunks.
Must walk or stand still to use.
(Passive)

Level 3 - 5 points -- Autopushing happens as soon as it can.
Drains half the DP it's supposed too.
You can now run and still use autopush, though if you jump it won't work.
(Passive)

Mindtrick (I'm gonna leave the clone idea for what it is right now because Vruki was the only one that supported me in it, and Vruki is having internets troubles)

Mindtrick 1 - 10 points -- Perequisite Level 2 Sense
You can mindtrick one opponent that:
-Has his back turned to you
or
-Is at critical DP

Mindtrick 2 - 8 points
You can mindtrick 1 opponent if he:
-Has no defenses whatsoever, defenses being
-Absorb level 2
-Push and Pull level 2 (Yes, two powers means that you're proficient at the force and not easily tricked by it)

Mindtrick 3 - 10 points -- Perequisite Sense 3
You can mindtrick anyone within a number of distance from you in a 360 degree angle if:
-They don't have at least Absorb 2
and
-Don't at least have Force Sense 2


I had the idea of changing Force Rage to Dark Sense or something like that.
I think if you want to buy Dark Side powers you should first learn Dark Sense just like you would sense to access the regular powers.

UDM
11-06-2006, 04:35 AM
We can always get inspiration from KOTOR :)

http://db.gamefaqs.com/console/xbox/file/star_wars_kotor_ii_force_powers.txt

Check out this guide

And for our Jedi saber skills, instead of the usual Saber Attack, Saber Defence and Saber Throw skills, I've come up with a list of ideas. Also, I suggest having more than 3 bubbles for some skills. I think 5 is good

Saber Attack - affects the amount of mishap (not DP) you cause on others
Saber Defence - affects the amount of mishap (not DP) you lose per hit
Saber Throw - affects how far you can throw your saber, as well as DP damage the saber causes
Yellow form - lets you learn Yellow. I suggest 3 skill bubbles here. Every increase in skill level will decrease the proportion of mishap that you suffer from for whatever reason. At level 1, your mishap goes up quickly. I think it's good to have this because it makes players more "attached" to their forms. In other words, it discourages the "jack of all trades and master of none" and "rock paper scissors" phenomenon
Blue form - same with Yellow
Teal form - same with Yellow
Red form - same with Yellow
Purple form - same with Yellow
Critical strike - increases the DP damage caused by saber locks
Parry - every level of this increases the mishap damage you do when you parry their attacks
Flurry - a skill that is activated once and lasts for a certain period of time. It lets you recover from bounce very quickly, at the cost of FP. Each level of Flurry determines how much time you have before it ends
Power attack - It allows you to increase the amount of damage caused by attack fakes. Like Flurry, it eats FP everytime its activated, and every increase in Power Attack level will allow the skill to last longer
Toughness - determines how fast you recover due to falling down from a mishap. This skill should have a cheap cost
Quick Dodge - increases your DP by 10 per skill level
Focus - you gain less mishap when your attacks are parried
Armor class - increases your armor by 25 per skill level. At 0 skill level, you start with 25 armor
Force channel - Force Jump and wall climb use up less force points
Reflex - Lose less DP when shot (doesnt include saber attacks)

I'm making an assumption here btw: every player will start off with 100dp, which can only be increased with the Quick Dodge skill. The reason why I think Saber Attack and Saber Def should focus on mishap and not DP is because if it did focus on DP, then everyone would stuff points into it. Essentially, that means there's no point in having the skill. I mean why should I spend the same amount of points on other skills, when there are 2 skills that, if I don't add points into, I'll lose the match for sure? Instead, mishap is emphasised as is, because if I drop my saber, I can always retrieve it back!

Maxstate
11-06-2006, 04:59 AM
We can always get inspiration from KOTOR :)

http://db.gamefaqs.com/console/xbox/file/star_wars_kotor_ii_force_powers.txt

Check out this guide

And for our Jedi saber skills, instead of the usual Saber Attack, Saber Defence and Saber Throw skills, I've come up with a list of ideas. Also, I suggest having more than 3 bubbles for some skills. I think 5 is good

Saber Attack - affects the amount of mishap (not DP) you cause on others
Saber Defence - affects the amount of mishap (not DP) you lose per hit
Saber Throw - affects how far you can throw your saber, as well as DP damage the saber causes
Yellow form - lets you learn Yellow. I suggest 3 skill bubbles here. Every increase in skill level will decrease the proportion of mishap that you suffer from for whatever reason. At level 1, your mishap goes up quickly. I think it's good to have this because it makes players more "attached" to their forms. In other words, it discourages the "jack of all trades and master of none" and "rock paper scissors" phenomenon
Blue form - same with Yellow
Teal form - same with Yellow
Red form - same with Yellow
Purple form - same with Yellow
Critical strike - increases the DP damage caused by saber locks
Parry - affects the mishap damage caused by parrying
Flurry - a skill that is activated once and lasts for a certain period of time. It lets you recover from bounce very quickly, at the cost of FP. Each level of Flurry determines how much time you have before it ends
Power attack - a skill that lasts for a certain period of time. It allows you to increase the amount of damage caused by attack fakes
Toughness - determines how fast you recover due to falling down from a mishap. This skill should have a cheap cost
Quick Dodge - increases your DP by 10 per skill level
Focus - you gain less mishap when your attacks are parried
Armor class - increases your armor by 25 per skill level. At 0 skill level, you start with 25 armor
Force channel - Force Jump and wall climb use up less force points
Reflex - Lose less DP when shot (doesnt include saber attacks)

I'm making an assumption here btw: every player will start off with 100dp, which can only be increased with the Quick Dodge skill. The reason why I think Saber Attack and Saber Def should focus on mishap and not DP is because if it did focus on DP, then everyone would stuff points into it. Essentially, that means there's no point in having the skill. I mean why should I spend the same amount of points on other skills, when there are 2 skills that, if I don't add points into, I'll lose the match for sure? Instead, mishap is emphasised as is, because if I drop my saber, I can always retrieve it back!

I already suggested something like this, but simpler. I think that something like this sounds pretty good but it wouldn't exactly work with the noob-friendliness we're trying to achieve with ojp.

I agree on powers like "Reflex" and "toughness", and I think they should give someone a permanent bonus instead of a timed effect. The saber Attack and Defense stuff is good as it is, though I would like to see buyable styles.
Up to 3 buyable styles with their own perks.
Or 3 buyable styles and seperate buyable perks that count for all styles?

UDM
11-06-2006, 05:05 AM
Hmmm it may not hurt noob friendliness too much. The whole idea is to make players more fond of a certain style, so that they can call it their own. If I'm a n00b, I'd like to experiment with the choices that I'm given, instead of being forced. CS works in a similar fashion. It offers a variety of weapons, from pistols to snipers to machine guns. Yet, it remains n00b friendly, because it's fun to try out new things

Besides, who doesnt allocate all their points to Saber Attack and Defence in base JKA or even OJP? The problem with the system is that Attack and Defense are too important to not allocate points. I'd like to see an equal opportunity for all the skills ie. versatile, varied consumer choices, instead of fixed decision everytime one starts a game. Maybe I could try a defensive role today by having more points in saber defense and parrying, and less in offense. Then tomorrow, I'd try having a more offensive role by putting points in saber forms and saber attack. Whatever it is, there will not be a "jack of all trades" phenomenon because choices are too varied and numerous

I used to suggest perks a lot, but I think my mind has sort of changed recently. The main reason is that its impossible to achieve balance if there are many perks of varying degrees of usefulness. At least, that's the case for Jedi. Look at the gunner skills right now. It's very hard to achieve balance with the rocket launcher and blaster guns. The blaster is useful because its got a lot of ammo, and has fast killing potential. The pistol is just a waste of skillpoints. The rocket launcher is overpowered, and reducing ammo for it is not the solution because then it'd make the rocket launcher overpowered and all of a sudden, when you're out of ammo, you're cannon fodder

Maxstate
11-06-2006, 05:26 AM
Hmmm it may not hurt noob friendliness too much. The whole idea is to make players more fond of a certain style, so that they can call it their own. If I'm a n00b, I'd like to experiment with the choices that I'm given, instead of being forced. CS works in a similar fashion. It offers a variety of weapons, from pistols to snipers to machine guns. Yet, it remains n00b friendly, because it's fun to try out new things.

Yes because shooting guns is pointing and clicking, our saber play is far far different and much more complex than shooting a gun in CS.


Besides, who doesnt allocate all their points to Saber Attack and Defence in base JKA or even OJP? The problem with the system is that Attack and Defense are too important to not allocate points. I'd like to see an equal opportunity for all the skills ie. versatile, varied consumer choices, instead of fixed decision everytime one starts a game. Maybe I could try a defensive role today by having more points in saber defense and parrying, and less in offense. Then tomorrow, I'd try having a more offensive role by putting points in saber forms and saber attack. Whatever it is, there will not be a "jack of all trades" phenomenon because choices are too varied and numerous


That's why we need the saber perks to be buyable.
Currently SabAttack only defines how much styles you have, Saber Defense defines only what percentage blaster bolts are deflected/reflected.

I'll admit that I would like a more deepgoing system too, but I forsee that people will have a lot more "WHAT THE ****KKKKKKKK IM OUT OF HERE BACK 2 FMoD3" if they don't understand why they're getting killed so often even though they have their regular build.


I used to suggest perks a lot, but I think my mind has sort of changed recently. The main reason is that its impossible to achieve balance if there are many perks of varying degrees of usefulness. At least, that's the case for Jedi. Look at the gunner skills right now. It's very hard to achieve balance with the rocket launcher and blaster guns. The blaster is useful because its got a lot of ammo, and has fast killing potential. The pistol is just a waste of skillpoints. The rocket launcher is overpowered, and reducing ammo for it is not the solution because then it'd make the rocket launcher overpowered and all of a sudden, when you're out of ammo, you're cannon fodder
[/quote]
We need saber perks that don't directly affect the result of a saber duel, unless the user knows how to use them correctly. Like the perk to buy extra Makashi Defense so you don't get any extra damage from back whacks.
It seems useless against one opponent, but if you're being charged by two people you can still have a nice chance to survive.

Guns are currently overpowered and boring to use because there is no recharge function. Hell, even Forcemod has a recharge function, you shoot your full ammo clip out and then recharge ammo for your gun and shoot again.

If you give rockets a cooldown and a reloading anim (like MB uses the holstering one and freezes it in place) it would make the rocket launcher much more strategic and less the FFA monsterkill weapon it is now.

The e-11 is the best allround weapon, I love it, I just don't like the fact that you can shoot 300 rounds out of it without the damn thing overheating or running out of ammo. Even clones in the war asked for ammo, and they didn't have sidearms just for the kick of it ffs!

UDM
11-06-2006, 05:44 AM
Yes because shooting guns is pointing and clicking, our saber play is far far different and much more complex than shooting a gun in CS.

Yes yes I know I know. But right now, my dear, we're talking about the skills that you can buy OJP, compared to the guns you can buy in CS


I'll admit that I would like a more deepgoing system too, but I forsee that people will have a lot more "WHAT THE ****KKKKKKKK IM OUT OF HERE BACK 2 FMoD3" if they don't understand why they're getting killed so often even though they have their regular build.

That only applies if we complicate the saber system. As it is, I think this has nothing to do with what I suggested above, which is adapted to an individual's personal preferences, not to change the way the game is played. What's complicated is if we start having all sorts of new additions to the saber system eg. being able to kick while saber locked, having to hold crouch and jump and strafe at the same time to prevent being kicked down etc. Think of my ideas as...a walking crutch for an old man. Sure the old man can walk, but with a walking crutch (my ideas), he can walk better. If he's short, then a shorter walking crutch is better. If he's hunch backed, then he will fare better with a crutch that has bigger shoulder support


We need saber perks that don't directly affect the result of a saber duel, unless the user knows how to use them correctly. Like the perk to buy extra Makashi Defense so you don't get any extra damage from back whacks.
It seems useless against one opponent, but if you're being charged by two people you can still have a nice chance to survive.


That's the problem. That sort of skill is very situational. It only applies to FFA and powerduel, where it is very useful. In a 1 on 1 duel, it becomes useless. Again, I'm emphasizing that every skill should be given an equal opportunity to be integrated into the gameplay experience. Skills shouldn't be used because they work best in that situation ie. constantly spamming Heal and running away, but instead should be used because that is your personal preference

I agree with the part about the guns

Maxstate
11-06-2006, 06:32 AM
Yes yes I know I know. But right now, my dear, we're talking about the skills that you can buy OJP, compared to the guns you can buy in CS

I quote: "It offers a variety of weapons, from pistols to snipers to machine guns. Yet, it remains n00b friendly, because it's fun to try out new things."

Guns are not force powers or skills. Guns only require you to shoot, you don't need to know anything about guns to be able to shoot them.

Force powers and skills as you suggested them have different effects you need to take account of and think about before you use them.
Which does indeed make them noob unfriendly, because noone wants to read anything before they start playing. I got 4 new players to read Hocks' quickstart guide and that's it.



That only applies if we complicate the saber system. As it is, I think this has nothing to do with what I suggested above, which is adapted to an individual's personal preferences, not to change the way the game is played. What's complicated is if we start having all sorts of new additions to the saber system eg. being able to kick while saber locked, having to hold crouch and jump and strafe at the same time to prevent being kicked down etc. Think of my ideas as...a walking crutch for an old man. Sure the old man can walk, but with a walking crutch (my ideas), he can walk better. If he's short, then a shorter walking crutch is better. If he's hunch backed, then he will fare better with a crutch that has bigger shoulder support

Your ideas complicate the saber system because these force powers and skills WILL BE USED in a duel! This makes people need to think about what they're doing, this will make people go "WTF" because they don't know that Power's effect and what it's good for.

Also it is personal preference, but how do you think people will use Force Powers they know nothing about? THat they don't know what the effects are of?


That's the problem. That sort of skill is very situational. It only applies to FFA and powerduel, where it is very useful. In a 1 on 1 duel, it becomes useless. Again, I'm emphasizing that every skill should be given an equal opportunity to be integrated into the gameplay experience. Skills shouldn't be used because they work best in that situation ie. constantly spamming Heal and running away, but instead should be used because that is your personal preference

I agree with the part about the guns


I WANT them to be only useful in different situations!
Noone concentrates on a single opponent when they are surrounded by them, noone uses jabs and simple one handed parries when they're facing a saber-wielding ogre.

Everything should be situational because that gives you more choices in specific situations on how to react.

As if your skills aren't situational? I quote: "Reflex - Lose less DP when shot (doesnt include saber attacks)" So it only works if you get shot, which is a non-recurring situation because we don't have that many gunners. You could use that power maybe once every few hours. Smells like hypocritzzzz!

Maxstate
11-06-2006, 11:44 AM
After playing with some of the guys over at the RPG mainframe (they're very mature, fun to play with and aren't anything like the ones chosen described)
I think we had a good match. We showed them the basics and I think they enjoyed it, though the saber system was still a big pill to swallow for them.

And exactly as I predicted, here are the cons and pros they wrote down:


Pros:
1: we can put levels on guns making those classes more customizable.
2: Coop mode can help us with some npc jobs (in the version i played there was a skill bug but their working on it)
3: damages and stuff are not all effed up like in fm3 (a couple swings of a lightsaber and a few shots with a blaster will kill you but its counteracted by dodge)
4: saberthrow is straight line and much harder to aim so its not overpowered.
5: Gun's to saber transition very very smooth (I can go from E11 to Sword with out having to switch classes which me likey)
6: Much more balanced/fair 2 v 1 fights
7: not everyone will have the basic 3 styles

Observations:
1: Saber system is complex and requires a certain finesse to use it
2: Still has some bugs but they are ironing them out
3: You can't block blasters forever anymore
4: New Stances/moves however the saberstyles are not all that different (but that could just be me) in that the damages are all the same and the basic moves are more or less the same (how ever some styles eat dp faster and/or easier to parry with)
5: duels can take forever depending on the players aggressiveness/skill
6: the Force Prestige classes would be obselete (unless they add alot more force powers) cuz they only have 1 light the nuetral and 2 dark


Cons:
1: the skill/exp system it has built in is cool but is not useful for us since they reset back to the min on new maps making it so people who just get on have a big dissadvantage (however i heard you can adjust the min and maximum so we can set them the same)
2: no ammo reclaimation cry.gif
3: Very few force powers/guns (but i've heard they're trying to fix that)
4: The entire mod seems to center around lightsabers
5: Explosive (OMG they take away all of you dodge points knock you down but are auto pushed if you have it)

Notice that they complained about the lack of ammo recharge (ZING!) and the lack of buyable skills (DOUBLE ZING!).

If you're like me you'll want to gear OJP towards the people but still keep a fraction of it intact the way you like it. If I listen to the side of me that likes dueling, IT's downright perfect. But my overall judgement side still thinks that there is an overall lack of skills, and the gunning system is far too illogical.

Sushi_CW
11-06-2006, 03:09 PM
I like the idea of making Protect a purely passive power. I wouldn't mind if saber defense only did the defensive stuff that can be done with a saber: basically, deflecting bolts. Here's my humble suggestion (although I like the previous one too):

Saber defense: Ability to deflect saber bolts, higher levels mean less cost to do so. Maybe we could also have saber defense affect the DP costs for blocking saber attacks.

Level 1 Protect: Gain simple dodge ability (sabers, blaster fire)
Level 2 Protect: Gain advanced dodge (the dodge from rockets/thermals)
Level 3 Protect: Gain autopush.

This would also make it so that you don't have to have your saber out to push away a rocket, which makes more sense. Also, dodge would be a purchasable power.

Maxstate
11-06-2006, 03:39 PM
I like the idea of making Protect a purely passive power. I wouldn't mind if saber defense only did the defensive stuff that can be done with a saber: basically, deflecting bolts. Here's my humble suggestion (although I like the previous one too):

Saber defense: Ability to deflect saber bolts, higher levels mean less cost to do so. Maybe we could also have saber defense affect the DP costs for blocking saber attacks.

Level 1 Protect: Gain simple dodge ability (sabers, blaster fire)
Level 2 Protect: Gain advanced dodge (the dodge from rockets/thermals)
Level 3 Protect: Gain autopush.

This would also make it so that you don't have to have your saber out to push away a rocket, which makes more sense. Also, dodge would be a purchasable power.

Sounds okay to me, but it wouldn't exactly be adding new skills...
Meh.

JRHockney*
11-06-2006, 06:00 PM
I like the idea of making Protect a purely passive power. I wouldn't mind if saber defense only did the defensive stuff that can be done with a saber: basically, deflecting bolts. Here's my humble suggestion (although I like the previous one too):

Saber defense: Ability to deflect saber bolts, higher levels mean less cost to do so. Maybe we could also have saber defense affect the DP costs for blocking saber attacks.

Level 1 Protect: Gain simple dodge ability (sabers, blaster fire)
Level 2 Protect: Gain advanced dodge (the dodge from rockets/thermals)
Level 3 Protect: Gain autopush.

This would also make it so that you don't have to have your saber out to push away a rocket, which makes more sense. Also, dodge would be a purchasable power.


This isnt a bad idea either, although I'm not sure how were going to "dodge" a thermal. It would definitely allow a player to take what they like of the normal game features and not what they doesnt since alot lot people dont like dodge period.

Sushi_CW
11-06-2006, 06:18 PM
By dodging thermals, I mean the dodge that happens when it explodes... you automatically jump/roll out of the way and take less damage. As far as I can tell, this is what currently happens if you have DP but are pointed the wrong way to autopush the rocket or thermal.

UDM
11-06-2006, 10:36 PM
Me thinks what would happen if you're standing near a ledge...

razorace
11-06-2006, 11:08 PM
So, is the general consensius that people want the body dodges to be a buyable skill? That will make most players die in one shot in most cases.

JRHockney*
11-07-2006, 01:37 AM
So, is the general consensius that people want the body dodges to be a buyable skill? That will make most players die in one shot in most cases.

Well I guess that depends on how we do it. The actual dodge could just be taken out without the DP gone and blaster would just lower DP like it usually does against a saber. In melee or with guns, it would just be based on whatever that weapon does to your HP if you dont have it.

Me thinks what would happen if you're standing near a ledge...

Mmm, probably the same thing that happens if you dodge a saber near a ledge. Sure its annoying and we should probably create of kind of ledge fall prevention, but I think its a fair trade off. Its only temporary until you get level 3 protection anyways in this case.

On another note, we might want to start changing the names of some of these newer effect force powers so that new people get a clue that they are different. For example, Defense is actually Blaster reflecting defense and not everyone might catch on to that since its different in other games (well, mainly MB2).

Maxstate
11-07-2006, 03:08 AM
Can we plox at least give the skills a bit more exciting names?

Blaster = E-11
Pistol = DL-44
Buyable Dodge = Jedi Defense > ADvanced Jedi DEfense > Mastaaaaa Jedi Defense.

Also:
-scopes
-upgrades for blasters
-More skills

As I said, I can forget about saber perks and stuff if we just change the way the styles work with damage and mishap rates. But before you go I'd really like to see some mo' skills.

UDM
11-07-2006, 05:11 AM
I'm not really for buying the skill itself, but I am for upgrading it

That said, I'd prefer to see everyone start off equipped with enough attributes to be able to fight fair, so that even a player with 1337 saber fighting skills who (as in skilful player, not dumping lots of points into in-game skills) who doesn't use any of his skillpoints (SP) at all can triumph one who dumps all his SP into different in-game skills

razorace
11-07-2006, 05:41 AM
Can we plox at least give the skills a bit more exciting names?
Do people really want the technical names for the weapons instead of their generic names? It really doesn't matter to me but I figured that the generic terms are simplier for people to understand.

Wytchking
11-07-2006, 03:47 PM
Do people really want the technical names for the weapons instead of their generic names? It really doesn't matter to me but I figured that the generic terms are simplier for people to understand.

I personally think we should keep it generic for things like weapon mods.


As for skills etc. what about having two seperate skill trees. One would be general skills, say offense, and stats eg. strength. This would gain extra points by killing and capturing flags. In this section would be:

Saber Offense

Saber Defense

Strength (Adds extra DP damage for lightsabers, allows access to all grapples in melee, adds extra melee damage, makes you have a chance to win saber locks when initiated by opponent opposed to the opponent always winning saber locks if he has initiated it as Razorace suggested)

Acrobatics (Allows you to roll, allows all acrobatic jedi moves, allows ledge grab)

Reflexes (Increases chance of deflecting bolts, reduces cost of dodging)

Sight (Increases accuracy, reduces chance of mind trick successes (mainly useful for plain gunners))

Then we would have weapon and precise skills with points given for use of the weapon/gadget. Iíve not included skills which involve reloading or cool downs apart from in the rockets and special shots though Iím in favor of reloading for all weapons. Skills would include:

Pistol skills except dual pistol wielding should not cost much to make the pistol more useful

Dual Pistol Wielding: No explanation needed. Gives you dual pistols and with each level increases accuracy till it is better than the original

Increased Damage: Makes it harder to block and causes more damage when hits.

Increased Accuracy: Makes shots more accurate (accuracy should be slightly reduced for newer pistol wielders from base)

Increased Speed: Increases speed of pistol shots and to draw weapon.

Rifle

Increased Damage: Makes it harder to block and causes more damage when hits.

Increased Accuracy: Makes shots more accurate (accuracy should be slightly reduced for newer wielders from base)

Increased Speed: Increases speed of shots and to draw weapon

Burst: Allows access to secondary burst fire, same as default except only limited shots. Increased accuracy with burst every level

Stun: (Could make it so you only choose burst or stun or to add a tertiary fire) Causes knockdowns on characters who are running facing the opposite direction from the wielder and slow bounces on saber wielders. If you are facing the shooter then itís dodge able but it causes hurt animation if not running. Uses lots of ammo. Short delay before use which is decreased by levels and range of the shot is increased.

Disruptor

Scope: Adds the secondary sniper fire

Charge: Allows shots to be charged in or out of scope mode with longer and faster charges per level

Snipers eye: Automatically aims at nearest target to crosshair when entering scope mode with the nearness to the character increasing per level

Increased Damage: Makes it harder to block and causes more damage when hits.

Increased Speed: Increases speed of shots and to draw weapon.

Wookie Bowcaster

Scope: Adds a secondary sniper fire

Increased Damage: Makes it harder to block and causes more damage when hits.

Increased Speed: Increases speed of shots and to draw weapon.

Knockback: Knocks a person backwards who is hit by shot. If the person is running towards or away from you they are knocked down if not they go into pain/slowbounce animations

Multi Shot: Adds extra shots to each attack but decrease the accuracy sacrificing accuracy for force. The shots are in close formation. Each level adds an extra shot

Repeater

Increased Damage: Makes it harder to block and causes more damage when hits.

Increased Speed: Increases speed of shots and to draw weapon.

Increased Damage: Makes it harder to block and causes more damage when hits.

Concussion shot: Adds the concussion shot which acts like OJPís current one except with a cool down before being able to use it again. Separate ammo of 3-5 (If possible). Reduces cool down time for each level.

Demp

Increased Damage: Makes it harder to block and causes more damage when hits.

Increased Speed: Increases speed of shots and to draw weapon.

Shocker: Secondary close range shot, Chain lightning between people nearby. Continuous ammo drain. Each level increases range of first fire and chain. (I donít know if this is possible)

Shockwave: Tertiary fire, like usual but with each level increasing wave range

Flechette

Increased Damage: Makes it harder to block and causes more damage when hits.

Increased Speed: Increases speed of shots and to draw weapon.

Increased Damage: Makes it harder to block and causes more damage when hits.

Increased Range: Increases shot range (base range will need to be smaller)

Increased Spread: Increases spread of shots increasing DP damage

Increased Ammo: Increases ammo from low eg. a few rounds

No Secondary Fire as the flechette's Secondary Fire is overpowered in my view (Canít be blocked, dodge causes knockdown)

Missile Launcher

Homing Rockets: Gives homing rockets and increases there speed and lock on time.

Decreased Cool Down: Decreased cool down/reload of rockets

Bigger blast: The effects of the blast are felt further

Increased ammo: Increases ammo from 2-3

Concussion Rifle

Increased Damage: Makes it harder to block and causes more damage when hits.

Increased Speed: Increases speed of shots and to draw weapon

Charge: Allows you to charge up shots to increase blast radius and damage

Overload: Secondary fire, delay then a colossal blast using nearly all of the ammo but causing lots of damage and disintegrating those hit directly. Decreases charge time with levels

Flame Thrower

Increased Range: Increases the range of the Flamethrower

Increased Damage: Increases Flamethrower damage

Fuel Link: Links the fuel for the Jetpack and Flamethrower (If both are bought) increasing the fuel overall for both

Increased Fuel: Increases fuel for longer flaming

Jetpack

Fuel Link: Same as Flamethrower Fuel Link

Increased Height: Increases the height the jetpack can go

Increased Fuel: Increases Jetpack duration

Flight Basics: Allows you first to fly like base rather than jumping then giving you faster turns

Rocket: Gives one rocket on jetpack

Binoculars

Thermal Vision: Allows Merc to see all heat sources with range increasing each level

Anomaly Detection: Focuses in on snipers in view or Jedi using mind trick who are of a lower level

Night Vision: Rids shadows, shows hidden trip wires and counters mind trick of lower or the same level

Increase Zoom: Increases zoom range

Thermal Detonator creates expanding sphere of damage like Movie battles

Increased Blast Radius: Increases blast radius (DuhÖ)

Impact Grenade: Secondary fire which explodes on impact

Increased Damage: Increases damage dealt

Trip Mines

Mine Link: Tertiary fire which links mines or detpacks together so they explode at the same time

Invisible Trips: Trip wires are invisible to anyone not on your team

Increased Damage: Increases the damage

Detpack

Mine Link: Same as Trip Mines

Decreased Reaction Time: Decreases the delay before the explosion

Increased Damage: Increases the damage

Cloaking like the saboteurs

Increased Level: Increases the level of the shader to make you harder to see

Increased Length: Increases the length of time that it works

E-Web

Decreased Set Up Time: Decreases the time to set up

Portable Shield creates shield for crouching behind (not very big)

Increased Shield Health: Increases the health before the shield collapses

Increased Duration: Increases the length of time the shield stays up

Now an iffy or impossible gadget

Grapple hooks onto enemies and brings them down if they move. May be reeled in or out. Can be shot or cut. Not meant for climbing or for swinging.

Increased Range: Increases the range of the hook

Increased Speed: Increases the speed of the hook

Increased Health: Makes the grapple take more shots to detach

Any other random things others can come up with

This idea should force people to specialize even without knowing it and should provide a lot of customization and balance (I hope).

Iíll leave the force to everyone else as I have no real new ideas how to work it except

Mind Trick
1: Invisible when standing still not in crosshair to those with level 1 sense who are not using it
2: Invisible when standing still to those with level <=2 sense with level 2 not using it
3: Invisible when walking to those with level <=3 sense with level 3 not using it

Finneh
11-07-2006, 04:14 PM
I just tested the mod a few minutes ago, and here are some suggestions.
__________________________________________________ _______________

On Jetpack

I think the jetpack can be improved so that when u jump and hold it down it activates (like FM III). Also I think it would be pretty cool to choose your skins for it (as the regular one just looks butt ugly).

Gunz

Well all the alt fire crap is removed for now on decision for them but anyways I was thinking of "Special" upgrades for guns that alt fire could be used. For example, u can get a special "rapid" fire skill, that idk shoots faster but really fast. Power shot that fires a big ol power shot like the pistol, and then a scope upgrdae.

But not all guns wouldnt have same upgrdaes, for example, repeater wouldnt have a scope, but instead maybe power shot, rapid shot (omg super fast omg!!!), and the bomb attack.

O ya for the scope, I was thinking instead of using alt fire, just make a Scope key instead.

ANd for bowcaster, make it shoot out more bolts when charged! If you played SW BF II, that thing fires hella more bolts and spreads out more.

For shotgun, make basic fire have more shells fire out.

Now grenades, omg!! Remove that alt attack thing it has. Its just spamtacular. Make it have a bigger explosion, and its timed. If you can, make it so you can cook the detnater, instead of it exploding on ground. If not just remove it completely :P

Other gadgets for gun dudes

Well here are some ideas that are pretty basic, but w/e.

CLoak: Basically, it will be a stealth generator that lets ur dude go invisable.

Heat sensors: Turns ur vision to heat vision, and u can see people red, and the rest is all blueish color. (cant see through walls)

Night Vision: Well i just thought it'd be cool for night maps i guess... Not a must have but, w/e :P

Turret: Err the little turret droid

Sentry Droid: Little ball droid that follows u around

Ammo Regen: Either use Force points to regen, or automatically regens. More you levle it, faster regen u get

Shield Regen: Same as above, but regenerates your shield.

HP Boost: More you level this, more health you get

Armor Boost: More you level this, more shield u get.
__________________________________________________ _______________

Thats all for now. Also, id make it so if you want to use forcepowers, some of the skills cant be used (IE certain guns, explosives, jetpack, etc).

Well thats all i got right now ill post later.

razorace
11-07-2006, 04:54 PM
I think the effect of having weapon customization might not justify the amount of work put into making them work in the game. I mean, Han Solo was supposed to have a fairly modifed pistol and it didn't seem to perform any better than the generic pistols used by the Empire.

Instead, I'd suggest that additional skill levels result in better accuracy with weapons and then add a more realistic accuracy system where running, crouching, etc affects the accuracy of the shots.

I have class, I gotta go!

Maxstate
11-07-2006, 05:16 PM
Final notes; only the most NEEDED of all suggestions.

This is what I've come to after thinking about what I suggested and looking at some of the latest posts:

Blasters
__________________________________________

There should be skills that grant you effects like modification to your weapon would work in Kotor.

For example:

-Improved accuracy - 10 points - E-11, Bowcaster
For blabllabla reason your e-11 and bowcaster aim have improved, they now shoot without spread. (or you could make it leveled , so every bubble you buy makes it even more precise than it was before etc. etc.)

-Modded trigger system - 10 points - e-11, bowcaster, pistol
You modded your trigger system to improve weapon rate of fire.

-Improved Energy Cells - 10 points - E-11, bowcaster, pistol
New weapon energy cells improved their lethality (weapons do more damage).

-Anti-Jedi training - 10 points - E-11, bowcaster,-pistol, repeater
After experiencing Jedi on the field you have learned their deflection strategies through and you are able to outwit them and shoot in such a way that they have difficulty to reflect shots back at you. (taking notes from Jango vs Trebor) This would for example decrease Saber Defense 3 Reflection accuracy from 50% to 20% or lower.

Thermal Detonator 20 points
_________________
Only one should be buyable for 20 points and it should be a weapon of mass destruction. C3pO was very afraid of the thermal Leia had in Jabba's hut and they said it could kill anyone in that room, I think that it should have the same effect in OJP instead of the lousy poof it makes now.


Detpack 20 points
_________________
This should be a deadly weapon that comes in pairs of two, only two can be bought and carried for every life. Detpacks should not kill Jedi, but the blast from them should wipe the Jedi's Dodge points straight off the HUD leaving them open for follow up attacks.
These would work like satchel charges and can only be manually detonated from a distance not greater than xx.

Misc Inventory Items
_______________________
I agree with Fen, the sentry should at least be available in the list of buyable items and should also be limited to one per life/time. The flying saber training thing could be left out, as could the ForceField.

Cloak 10 points
__________________
Would promote stealthy characters, the cloaking should be vastly improved to near invisibility which should cancel itself if a weapon is fired.

Auto Push
__________________
Auto-pushed projectiles should fly in directions other than back at the gunner, they should go towards the jedi's extremes like straight up or diagonally left/right.

Rocket Launcher
__________________
Should have limited ammo and a non-killing but mass damaging quality in battle.


For Saber perks I had an idea long ago and I'll post it here even if I've just talked to Razor about it.

Well to solve our dilemma with having saber perks for individual styles, I think we should add different saber crystals that give us different effects like the gunner blaster skills do. Like in Kotor where you could upgrade your saber with a new crystal it would make it more proficient at defense, deflecting or attacking. It would do more damage or calm the Jedi down.
I think it's a good solution, what do you guys think?

My idea is to have a few different Lightsaber crystals buyable from the screen with different effects straight from the books.

As for Protect I think it should only activate Auto-push, and not Dodge. Dodge is essential in OJP combat and shouldn't rely on anything other than Jedi intuition.

I also would like Mind trick back very much thank you.


That's all.

razorace
11-07-2006, 07:00 PM
I agree for the most part with your suggestions. Please add task tickets for your ideas about...

Thermal Detonator
Detpack
Sentry Turret
Cloak
Auto Push
Rocket Launcher

And I'll try to get to them when I have time. :)

JRHockney*
11-07-2006, 07:20 PM
Well to solve our dilemma with having saber perks for individual styles, I think we should add different saber crystals that give us different effects like the gunner blaster skills do. Like in Kotor where you could upgrade your saber with a new crystal it would make it more proficient at defense, deflecting or attacking. It would do more damage or calm the Jedi down.
I think it's a good solution, what do you guys think?

I'm not against individual buyable features like that since I've been hoping we'd do something like that for a long time. But I still think the styles need to have some sort of beginning difference like the DP values we've discussed a thousand time over for the reasons we discussed a thousand times over. :p Its just not worth the animation splicing to make them perfectly balanced when the solution is simple and logical.

Cloak 10 points
__________________
Would promote stealthy characters, the cloaking should be vastly improved to near invisibility which should cancel itself if a weapon is fired.

Maybe cloak should make a character dead silent in their footsteps or saber until they fire or swing and me immune to seeing?

As for Protect I think it should only activate Auto-push, and not Dodge. Dodge is essential in OJP combat and shouldn't rely on anything other than Jedi intuition.

I dont know. The system is still fairly playable without dodge and alot of people dont really like it. There are alot of server that just turn it off. I say make it an option but make it fairly cheap so people can easily buy it if they have seeing. We might also want to make seeing a little more expensive as well.

razorace
11-07-2006, 08:14 PM
I'm pretty happy with the current DP allocation method. I say we don't mess with it unless there's some serious balancing issue.

As for cloak, I don't think it should mask footstep sounds. It just makes it creaper for the non-cloaked players.

JRHockney*
11-07-2006, 08:34 PM
As for cloak, I don't think it should mask footstep sounds. It just makes it creaper for the non-cloaked players.

Well, that's why it would be a more stealthy alternative to mindtrick and simply vanishing. This way, you could just hid out like a ninja or assasin or something with still having the potential to be seen. There are far too many metal gear/splintercell/ninja fans out there to not take advantage of a more stealthy technique. This would have to work with not being seen by people with seeing to work to its fullest potential though.

Along with this, is there any way to make a player maybe turn black or greatly shaded when they are in dark or a dark shadow? It might be a cool feature on shadowed or dark maps.

robo85045
11-07-2006, 09:44 PM
Going back to the "commanding npcs" idea mentioned before, how about turning the 'seeker' item into a true npc like it was originally intended to be (seeing as ojp has md3 modeled npcs working now). The seeker would last until it is shot down, and you could give it simple commands (follow me, go other there, attack on sight, attack my target). I have made something similar to this before, and am fairly confident I could code this in, if razorace doesn't have time for it.

UDM
11-08-2006, 12:23 AM
I like this idea. The seeker could be a tool for distraction, but not powerful enough to kill on its own

razorace
11-08-2006, 04:20 AM
Well, that's why it would be a more stealthy alternative to mindtrick and simply vanishing. This way, you could just hid out like a ninja or assasin or something with still having the potential to be seen. There are far too many metal gear/splintercell/ninja fans out there to not take advantage of a more stealthy technique. This would have to work with not being seen by people with seeing to work to its fullest potential though.

Along with this, is there any way to make a player maybe turn black or greatly shaded when they are in dark or a dark shadow? It might be a cool feature on shadowed or dark maps.
I think the players have to have at least some level of non-invisibleness when using cloak/mindtrick. 100% invisible doesn't require any skill to sneak up on anyone.

Maxstate
11-08-2006, 03:06 PM
Ace, I'm in the middle of playing 009P with a friend and it turns out that Manual Deflect isn't working. I'm aiming away from him and timing it right with a good ping around 30 but it's not headed his way, I can't see ANY difference in where the shot is going..

It was supposed to go to a random enemy in range, my friend shooting is the only one, isn't it supposed to go at him?

Can you PLEASE fix this?

razorace
11-08-2006, 05:08 PM
Remember that the swing has to be in the windup or return animations for manual deflections to occur. I don't see any issues with the code so I'm going to need more information before I can act on it.

Maxstate
11-08-2006, 05:13 PM
Remember that the swing has to be in the windup or return animations for manual deflections to occur. I don't see any issues with the code so I'm going to need more information before I can act on it.

I used fakes to do them and I think we tested it with a couple of hundred shots and none of them went towards the gunner. I was aiming slightly to his left and told him to shoot in a pattern, then I would tap fake just as the shots hit me.

I had saber defense 3 and the shots just flew towards my crosshair with 100% accuracy, nothing else..

razorace
11-08-2006, 05:22 PM
That's probably an indication that your base saber reflection rate is overriding your manual reflections. The system automatically goes with the highest level of reflection and at 50% of your reflects occuring at level 3, it's probably going to look like the manual reflections rarely happen. It should be more obvious on a lower saber defense level.

Maxstate
11-08-2006, 06:15 PM
That's probably an indication that your base saber reflection rate is overriding your manual reflections. The system automatically goes with the highest level of reflection and at 50% of your reflects occuring at level 3, it's probably going to look like the manual reflections rarely happen. It should be more obvious on a lower saber defense level.
But shouldn't it reflect the bolts back at the gunner when manually deflected correctly? Because it didn't do that even once in the few hundred shots we practiced with...


Very frustrating, manual deflection is a feature I'm very fond of and it seems to not be working now.

Or is this the way it's supposed to work? Dude, if it's just gonna reflect towards the crosshair noone will bother with manual deflection. If you set it up like that, please turn it back like it was.
If not, I'll check again tomorrow I guess.

razorace
11-08-2006, 07:31 PM
What's wrong with the crosshair aimed bolt deflection? I thought that's what you guys wanted in the first place. If that's not the case, we could just make all reflections just hit near by enemy and not worry about it.

Please bear in mind that the time spent time reprogramming things because of vague user feedback is time not spent on other features.

Sushi_CW
11-08-2006, 08:04 PM
For what it's worth, I like the crosshair-aimed bolt deflection.

JRHockney*
11-08-2006, 09:10 PM
I think the players have to have at least some level of non-invisibleness when using cloak/mindtrick. 100% invisible doesn't require any skill to sneak up on anyone.

Well, thats what I'm talking about. Mindtrick would do the same thing it always does and make the player invisible and audable until he does something. My idea of cloak would be more based on actual stealth were you CAN be seen but cant be heard or detected through seeing. It would make stealth more like actual stealth rather than disappearing. Being invisible is just to easy for players who like to play stealth games. The silent footsteps thing was always fun in the deus ex games. Of course this might also have to be silent for NPC's too. That would really be cool.

So is that shadow blend idea that I mentioned before at all possible?

For what it's worth, I like the crosshair-aimed bolt deflection.

I do too, but I havent tried it enough to know whether its too hard to do or not in its present form.

razorace
11-09-2006, 02:11 AM
So is that shadow blend idea that I mentioned before at all possible?

There aren't shadows to stand in on the maps in the first place. :)

Maxstate
11-09-2006, 02:56 AM
What's wrong with the crosshair aimed bolt deflection? I thought that's what you guys wanted in the first place. If that's not the case, we could just make all reflections just hit near by enemy and not worry about it.

Please bear in mind that the time spent time reprogramming things because of vague user feedback is time not spent on other features.
The last I heard was this:

"Manual deflected bolts will travel towards a random enemy in range."

And that's not what it is now, I don't know what kind of feedback I'm supposed to give when I don't know what it's original feature was..
I thought it was ^that I mentioned above, but clearly it's not, I'm trying to give feedback as best as I can but that's not easy when your alledgedly correct knowledge just was proven incorrect.

Saber defense 3 already reflects 50% (!) of all deflected blasterbolts towards the crosshair. Manual Deflect is an added extra that rewards people with better timing and reflexes with faster kills. Manually deflected bolts should travel towards or near the enemy it got from. If it doesn't have any extra feats to it, why should someone use it when they can also buy Saber Defense 3 to reflect shots back at their crosshair?

What kind of logic is that?

Noone is even going to bother, so I'm on my knees again here; please return it to how it 'was' before.


On stealth:

In Enemy Territory: Noquarter there's a Covert Ops skill that makes you completely silent save for gun sounds. No footsteps, no breathing, no splashing. Nothing.
And it works very well, in combination with our current cloak I think it could prove extremely useful.

razorace
11-09-2006, 03:56 AM
This sounds like a misunderstanding. I thought you guys stated before that MB2 had the highest level of reflection reflect bolts in the direction of the crosshair and that was what you guys were wanting.

If you guys don't want that to be the highest level reflection, we could switch that with the auto reflections. That wouldn't be hard to do.

Maxstate
11-09-2006, 04:09 AM
This sounds like a misunderstanding. I thought you guys stated before that MB2 had the highest level of reflection reflect bolts in the direction of the crosshair and that was what you guys were wanting.

If you guys don't want that to be the highest level reflection, we could switch that with the auto reflections. That wouldn't be hard to do.

No that was when I posted about the effects of Saber Defense being a "deflect" feature. This is about Manual Deflect, a feature we added when me, you, Saber and Dr.Shaft were in a server. The time that you added a bit of code to recognize when a manual deflect was performed and echo it ingame. Then afterwards you added it and told us that it should "reflect to a random enemy in range".

This isn't about saber defense 3, this is about the Manual Deflect feature in which you need to tap fake/swing at the moment a blaster bolt hits you to deflect it straight back to an opponent. We have enough towards-crosshair reflecting, this is something better that is supposed to add more levels of strategy and skill to deflecting.

In MB2, all levels of Saber Deflect reflect bolts towards the crosshair but only in a set amount. For example, saber deflect 1 reflects about 1 out of every 15, saber Deflect 2 reflects 1/10 and Saber Deflect 3 reflects 1 out of 3 it seems. Though these percentages drop straight down if you're getting barraged by gunfire, so if a gunner keeps his lock on you for more than 2 seconds and continues to hit youwith his blaster, you are unable to reflect shots back untill you don't dodge a shot or untill the gunner misses.

As I said, MANUAL deflect is a different feature that me, you, Saber (datguru) and dr.Shaft tested in a playtesting match. I remember it very good, we were testing weapons and I got the idea of manual deflect, Saber and Dr.Shaft seemed to like the idea but you were still against it because you thought it would be too hard to do. Then you added a bit of code that echoes a message ingame if a bolt is manually deflected correctly and lo-and-behold it was easier than you thought. Then you added it into the game but only had it reflect shots towards the crosshair, I told you that that wouldn't be any good because people wouldn't use it. People wouldn't be rewarded enough for their timing and skill like they are in the saber system.

You modified it and told me "It should reflect back at a random enemy in range.". This is not how it is currently, but it was the last information I got about it from you. Now it seems that what you said was it's effect, ISN'T it's effect anymore and that's what I'm getting at.

I don't care what you do to Saber Defense, if you ask me, it's great the way it is. Maybe have a few more features from MB affect it like that the percentage goes down to 0% as you get hit more and then regenerates back up if you stop deflecting for a while.

razorace
11-09-2006, 04:39 AM
I know what you're talking about.

I'm just confused about how manual deflection (which is technically level 2 reflection in the code) is "better" than saber defence 3's level 3 reflections (aimed at the crosshairs).

Anyway, you're right, the manual reflections don't actually reflect towards a random enemy in the area, it always send the bolt back at whoever fired the bolt.

Maxstate
11-09-2006, 05:34 AM
I know what you're talking about.

I'm just confused about how manual deflection (which is technically level 2 reflection in the code) is "better" than saber defence 3's level 3 reflections (aimed at the crosshairs).

Anyway, you're right, the manual reflections don't actually reflect towards a random enemy in the area, it always send the bolt back at whoever fired the bolt.

Yeah sorry I lashed at ya a bit, been happening more and more lately.
My classmates' ignorance is pissing me off :smash:

And I'm glad the problem is acknowledged then, I'm content.

razorace
11-09-2006, 06:48 AM
So the problem isn't that aimed reflections overrule the manual blocks?

Rather, you want the automatically reflected shots to be aimed at any enemies in the area?

As for some good news, I've been able to impliment the flamethrower. It is still rough around the edges and it works and should be in the next beta. FYI, after some trying, I decided to impliment it as an item. It was easier to impliment that way and allows players to snap use it while using other weapons. :)

Maxstate
11-09-2006, 07:52 AM
So the problem isn't that aimed reflections overrule the manual blocks?

Rather, you want the automatically reflected shots to be aimed at any enemies in the area?

As for some good news, I've been able to impliment the flamethrower. It is still rough around the edges and it works and should be in the next beta. FYI, after some trying, I decided to impliment it as an item. It was easier to impliment that way and allows players to snap use it while using other weapons. :)

NO! Wait, I misread. I'm home now, more time:
The automatically deflected bolts by the saber defense skill should stay as they are now. The MANUALLY deflected bolts should go towards an enemy's area.

Oh yes, at the flamethrower part, my face is now this: :)

ensiform
11-09-2006, 10:01 PM
News Update Guys: I fixed the negative skill problem, while Razor and I were discussing the possibilities earlier tonight.

Still need to fix the issues with the gun skills being set higher at random and make sure skill and skillPoints are reset on map reset as I have just noticed my weapon skills were still set over a restart in the UI yet I only had melee.

JRHockney*
11-10-2006, 12:58 AM
News Update Guys: I fixed the negative skill problem, while Razor and I were discussing the possibilities earlier tonight.

Still need to fix the issues with the gun skills being set higher at random and make sure skill and skillPoints are reset on map reset as I have just noticed my weapon skills were still set over a restart in the UI yet I only had melee.

Good work. :)

Maxstate
11-10-2006, 12:19 PM
Good work. :)
QFT.
Nice to see more coding activity :)

Maxstate
11-10-2006, 05:31 PM
After a steady time of discussing, crying, laughing and maybe even begging (:p nah),
I'm happy to announce that we got permission to use a nice lookin' star wars blaster model :

http://jediknight2.filefront.com/file/DE10_Blaster_Pistol;38928

pics:
http://jediknight2.filefront.com/screenshots/File/38928/2
http://jediknight2.filefront.com/screenshots/File/38928/

The DE-10 made by WarShark.

Comes complete with shaders, sounds and effects.

Now the big question: Do you guys have time/the ability to implement this as it's own weapon or item? I've spoken to Ace about adding weapons before and I don't think it was quite easy to do, but I think that this pistol could bring a lot of good stuff OJP's way in the future.

It is choice and customization, not to mention that it's also a plain new toy to play with!

Given it's own special damage, rate of fire and accuracy properties and having it in the profile screen could well an added factor of success :guiness:

How about we try it? When I say we, ofcourse I mean the coders locked up in the dungeon *whip crack* :p

But seriously, what do you guys think?

Edit:
http://www.razerwolf.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/SWG/DE-10Pistol.jpg
Zomgawt111!

razorace
11-10-2006, 05:49 PM
I'm not familar with this kind of weapon. Was it in the movies or is it only a SW:G item?

Maxstate
11-10-2006, 05:52 PM
I'm not familar with this kind of weapon. Was it in the movies or is it only a SW:G item?
I don't think it was visibly in the movies, but to be honest, I don't really care and I don't think the majority of people will care either.

And yeah, as far as I can tell it's limited to SWG only. But it's late so I might have missed some pics :p

This gun prawns, it would be like OJP's deagle :p(without the insanely high recoil and lack of bullets it has ofcourse, lol)

ensiform
11-11-2006, 10:25 AM
I'm thinking maybe... on the force profile screen we should draw how much total skill they have, how many points have been used, and like currently how many they have left.

Also, another suggestion for the profile: maybe have the text of each item clickable and open up another popup window that has a description about each, and if it has different levels say what the difference is.

Maxstate
11-11-2006, 10:27 AM
I'm thinking maybe... on the force profile screen we should draw how much total skill they have, how many points have been used, and like currently how many they have left.

Also, another suggestion for the profile: maybe have the text of each item clickable and open up another popup window that has a description about each, and if it has different levels say what the difference is.

I agree very much Ensiform.

As I'm almost finished with the HTML conversion, I'd like to do the writing about all the skills and stuff if necessary :)

Also, can you guys make it so that when we get scopes or weapon improvements, that buying more skill in a weapon makes it better, id est, gives it a scope or more damage instead of giving it more ammo?

Please?

ensiform
11-11-2006, 10:30 AM
Well as for writing more stuff, that really isn't necessary as JKA already has most of the descriptions in one of the string files.

Also, can you guys make it so that when we get scopes or weapon improvements, that buying more skill in a weapon makes it better, id est, gives it a scope or more damage instead of giving it more ammo?

You mean like if pistol is scoped it draws a scope on the weapon like an add-on to it?

As for changing damages, and other stuff in g_weapons well that is relatively easy to do, just check if valid client, and if sk level for that item is > 0 then mutliply it or something by the level of skill *or* have a struct that lists the amounts depending on the level. Either way works just as good.

Also guys, seeing as we do have CoOp maps and such and it is nice to see items, etc in MP maps too but what are your ideas on porting the SP-style seeing code in the cgame that allows us to see items, missiles, and other ents like objectives, etc and not just players. This could also be added to Basic (for CoOp only since it is a feature in SP)

Maxstate
11-11-2006, 10:33 AM
Well as for writing more stuff, that really isn't necessary as JKA already has most of the descriptions in one of the string files.



You mean like if pistol is scoped it draws a scope on the weapon like an add-on to it?
It doesn't need to draw anything on it, no visual changes needed at all since we already have everything.

I was talking about this kinda thing:

You buy level 1 E-11 and you get a simple E-11 with primary fire only.
You buy level 2 and you get an E-11 with increased primary fire rate of fire and damage.
You buy E-11 level 3 and you get secondary fire, which is a scope.

Pistol 1: Simple one shot pistol.
Pistol 2: Pistol does more damage.
Pistol 3: Pistol does even more damage.

Jetpack 1: Small amount of jet fuel, ability to stay in the air for a few seconds.
Jetpack 2: More jetfuel.
Jetpack 3: Full jetfuel capacity.

Etc. etc.

Understand?

If we get the concussion rifle, bowcaster and DE-10 in as well, I'm hoping they will get settings liek this too :)

ensiform
11-11-2006, 10:37 AM
I'm not sure we can really or should add more weapons that are player usable as that might fu(k things up. :sweat:

Maxstate
11-11-2006, 10:38 AM
I'm not sure we can really or should add more weapons that are player usable as that might fu(k things up. :sweat:
Well I really can't see any gunners taking interest in this mod if they can only use 3 types of blasters...

UDM
11-11-2006, 01:16 PM
On the sidenote, I found this mod

http://jediknight2.filefront.com/file/New_Force_Lightning_Pack;72011

And I really like what I see. Maybe we could ask the mod author for permission to use some of it?

Btw is moviesaberclashes included in default OJP? I figured that most of us are using that, but for those who arent, it could be a bit of a problem getting into pure servers, whose hosts use the moviesaberclashes mod. Again, get permission from author?

Maxstate
11-11-2006, 01:22 PM
On the sidenote, I found this mod

http://jediknight2.filefront.com/file/New_Force_Lightning_Pack;72011

And I really like what I see. Maybe we could ask the mod author for permission to use some of it?

Btw is moviesaberclashes included in default OJP? I figured that most of us are using that, but for those who arent, it could be a bit of a problem getting into pure servers, whose hosts use the moviesaberclashes mod. Again, get permission from author?

Ace mades his own movie clashes and I think and I like them a lot, so count me out. I'm too busy getting permission to use gun models :P

JRHockney*
11-11-2006, 01:49 PM
Ace mades his own movie clashes and I think and I like them a lot, so count me out. I'm too busy getting permission to use gun models :P


I actually use my own movie saber clash effect. Its bigger than the default one and makes the fights look alot cooler.

Maxstate
11-11-2006, 03:46 PM
I actually use my own movie saber clash effect. Its bigger than the default one and makes the fights look alot cooler.
I just kinda scraped off the outer white corona since it makes distant saber battles look like papparazzi marathons :p

Other than that, :thumbsup:.

ensiform
11-11-2006, 05:10 PM
Some big suggestions:

- Make skill buying dynamic for everything. IE: Buy rocket in this life, and it gives it to you.

- In CTF, when you return the flag you should get +5 skill (debatable on amount)

- In CTF, when you kill the flag carrier you should get +5 skill (debatable on amount)

- In JM, if you kill the JM you should get some skill.

- In JM, if you are the JM you should get skill for how long you can hold the saber (have checks for being idle though so people cannot sit idle as JM to get lots of points)

JRHockney*
11-11-2006, 05:31 PM
Some big suggestions:

- Make skill buying dynamic for everything. IE: Buy rocket in this life, and it gives it to you.

- In CTF, when you return the flag you should get +5 skill (debatable on amount)

- In CTF, when you kill the flag carrier you should get +5 skill (debatable on amount)

- In JM, if you kill the JM you should get some skill.

- In JM, if you are the JM you should get skill for how long you can hold the saber (have checks for being idle though so people cannot sit idle as JM to get lots of points)


All good ideas I think. The other game modes have not been focused on and this would be a good place to start. Does anyone know if we have we done anything to balance holocron to our point system yet? IF not, we should probably be thinking about that as well.

ensiform
11-11-2006, 05:41 PM
All good ideas I think. The other game modes have not been focused on and this would be a good place to start. Does anyone know if we have we done anything to balance holocron to our point system yet? IF not, we should probably be thinking about that as well.

I haven't ever really played holocron so I really would not know, though maybe point system should be disabled like it is in Siege as the holocron gives saber powers, etc ?

razorace
11-11-2006, 06:00 PM
Also guys, seeing as we do have CoOp maps and such and it is nice to see items, etc in MP maps too but what are your ideas on porting the SP-style seeing code in the cgame that allows us to see items, missiles, and other ents like objectives, etc and not just players. This could also be added to Basic (for CoOp only since it is a feature in SP)
Oh, so you mean making Force Seeing allow you to see nearby items and objectives in addition to other players?
I'm not sure we can really or should add more weapons that are player usable as that might fu(k things up.
Agreed. Adding new weapons looks pretty complicated and easy to screw up.

Some big suggestions:

- Make skill buying dynamic for everything. IE: Buy rocket in this life, and it gives it to you.

- In CTF, when you return the flag you should get +5 skill (debatable on amount)

- In CTF, when you kill the flag carrier you should get +5 skill (debatable on amount)
These all seem like good ideas.

- In JM, if you kill the JM you should get some skill.I don't think you should get points for killing the JM simply because players will be getting experience naturally by hurting the JM, who should have a LOT of experience points.

- In JM, if you are the JM you should get skill for how long you can hold the saber (have checks for being idle though so people cannot sit idle as JM to get lots of points)
This is tricky. Should the JM have maxed out Skill points in all ranks? I'm not really sure how the JM should have experience allociated. Secondly, should we maybe restrict him to Jedi powers only or should we allow the JM to also be a super merc?

On the sidenote, I found this mod

http://jediknight2.filefront.com/fi...ning_Pack;72011

And I really like what I see. Maybe we could ask the mod author for permission to use some of it?
Looks like it has promise, submit a task ticket that asks us to look into that. Maybe their Force_Fire effect would be able to replace the current flamethrower effect I'm using, which causes FPS drops.

Maxstate
11-11-2006, 06:34 PM
Agreed. Adding new weapons looks pretty complicated and easy to screw up.



Agreed?!

Ohfr, ahh nevermind.

ensiform
11-11-2006, 10:53 PM
TBH, adding the weapons for NPCs wouldn't be too hard.

JRHockney*
11-12-2006, 01:49 AM
I haven't ever really played holocron so I really would not know, though maybe point system should be disabled like it is in Siege as the holocron gives saber powers, etc ?

Yeah I suppose that would be fine. I'm not that big of a fan of holocron anyways so as long as it works, that's good enough for me.

Seige, however, we might want to spend a little more time planning out since it is a more played game type. I think we should have two types of seige. The first just normal like it is now, and the second more like MB2 where it is the last man standing type seige and maybe add points for killing others in that one.

razorace
11-13-2006, 08:09 AM
On the sidenote, I found this mod

http://jediknight2.filefront.com/file/New_Force_Lightning_Pack;72011

Wow. The flame lightning of that package is perfect. I need someone to get the author permission to use it immediately!

UDM
11-13-2006, 08:26 AM
Sure I'll get to it on emailing him tonight

{TheChosenOne}
11-13-2006, 08:50 AM
http://jediknight2.filefront.com/file/FlameThrower_Mod;19803

Would this be good as well? (I kind of like this one better :P)

Also if you're going to add weapons would it be far fetched to suggest other models as well?

http://jediknight2.filefront.com/file/SoM3_Clone_DC15_Rifle;71840

http://jediknight2.filefront.com/file/Boba_Fetts_EE3_Blaster_Carbine;46437

http://jediknight2.filefront.com/file/Bryar_Replacement_Mod;52474

http://jediknight2.filefront.com/file/T21_Stormtrooper_Rifle;68913

These could be a kick in the butt for gunner combat.

razorace
11-13-2006, 09:19 AM
http://jediknight2.filefront.com/file/FlameThrower_Mod;19803

Would this be good as well? (I kind of like this one better :P)
That was my original effect that I was using. However, the effect is very laggy. In addition, it moves very slowly in relation to the player so running resulted in the player moving into his own flames.

Also if you're going to add weapons would it be far fetched to suggest other models as well?
Pretty models. But like I said before, it's a bit of a hassle to add new weapons so we might not get to it. However, I should note that the bryer is already in the game code and assets so it shouldn't be to reenable if that's what you guys want.

{TheChosenOne}
11-13-2006, 09:25 AM
That was my original effect that I was using. However, the effect is very laggy. In addition, it moves very slowly in relation to the player so running resulted in the player moving into his own flames.
LOL! I guess that can be seen as a problem. Why not just slow the player down to walking when using lightning/flame?

Pretty models. But like I said before, it's a bit of a hassle to add new weapons so we might not get to it. However, I should note that the bryer is already in the game code and assets so it shouldn't be to reenable if that's what you guys want.
I think those models are pretty :/

So thinking ahead to adding new weapons would be for the future then?

razorace
11-13-2006, 09:29 AM
I suppose we could do that, but even walking moved faster than the original effect. It was SLOW.

As for new weapons, we will see.

{TheChosenOne}
11-13-2006, 09:34 AM
I suppose we could do that, but even walking moved faster than the original effect. It was SLOW.
Hmmmm, I'm curious as to how the MB made their flame effect then.

Maxstate
11-13-2006, 10:28 AM
Oh I think Ensi will help us along with our weapon problems, he's already made a very good start. Not to mention all the other things he's been working on, glad that his talent finally erupted into Enhanced :)

Btw, I got permission for us to use that T-21 model.
I only posted the DE-10 because I was looking for weapons that MB doesn't use. Don't want people to have counterarguments when I mention holsters and stuff :p (kidding!)

I think we should start slow and see if that DE-10 can be included, it has everything you need, plus , I LOVE PISTOLS.

Sushi_CW
11-13-2006, 02:58 PM
The problem with the experience system in game modes like Holocron, Jedi Master, and Siege is that since you can't allocate your skill points, you can't increase your DP past 50. Why not make it so that in these gamemodes, your unallocated skill affects your DP? In other words, in game modes where you can't allocate your skill points into force powers/guns, the skill points should still count towards increasing your maximum DP.

Also, should we make guns available during Holocron? It would be cool if they could take up a slot like the force powers do.

razorace
11-13-2006, 07:42 PM
I could make it so you could allociate skill points in JM, Holocron, and Siege, it would just take a while to do and we'd have to decide what sort of mechanics we'd want.

But anyway, right now, unallociated skill points add more shielding/armor to the player. It's not exactly DP but it's a start.

Finally, I suppose we could have guns in Holocron, but we'd have to have someone do the additional graphics for the gun holos.

Maxstate
11-15-2006, 12:29 PM
There, another 3 or so hours of testing done, my findings:

-The flamethrower and jetpack fuel meter needs to recharge MUCH slower.

Guns:

I've thought about it, and in the long term I think Ace is right; OJP needs an aiming system more than blaster skills, simple enough though.
Walking improves aim, crouching improves aim and standing still improves aim.
Crouching>Standing still>walking>running from top to bottom, I don't care what kind of percentages you bind to it, but that is how it should look like basically.

Now, throwing ALL the gunner skills that I mentioned aside, I would like to come back on an idea I had before. Instead of buying ammo for a weapon, how about you upgrade that weapon like in MB?

E-11:
Level 1 - 10 points
Has only a low rate of fire, primary fire.

Level 2 - 8 points
Primary fire's got an increased rate of fire and damage.

Level 3 - 5 points
Secondary fire is now a scope for taking out distant targets.
The should preferably have some recoil, and scoped shots should do more damage.

That kind of thing ^

Whadda ya think?

UDM
11-15-2006, 12:40 PM
I think it's good, but should have more than 3 levels. About 5 I think, that'd be great

Actually come to think about it, perks may not be such a good idea for Jedi after all. Maybe we should go for persistent stats instead, for example Jedi Strength and Jedi Agility, that sort of thing

{TheChosenOne}
11-15-2006, 05:12 PM
About the "pistols" comment from Max. There is plenty of different pistols out there for JKA, notably the Scout pistol for the Scout trooper models, DH-17, Bryar, and one more I think I'm missing. I kinda prefer one of the above as they are pistols/guns we are all fimiliar with and wouldn't have had to have played SWG to know what it is.

I also agree with Max on the gunning part.

Maxstate
11-15-2006, 05:34 PM
About the "pistols" comment from Max. There are plenty of different pistols out there for JKA, notably the Scout pistol for the Scout trooper models, DH-17, Bryar, and one more I think I'm missing. I kinda prefer one of the above as they are pistols/guns we are all fimiliar with and wouldn't have had to have played SWG to know what it is.

I also agree with Max on the gunning part.
Each would require permission to be asked.

I don't see how this is really relevant to the whole thread? We know that there are a lot of weapon models out there, I've asked permission to use a lot of them and most of my emails haven't been returned. I did get the DE-10 though, which seems like an excellent, over-looked pistol that has everything it needs to make for a good addition.

Why should we be the gazzilionth mod to have clone rifles or DH-17's?
Dude, instead of trying to copy the more popular mods and feed on their ideas and creativity, how about we go ahead and try to think and make up something original. If I want to play cheap movie ripoffs, or unbalanced FFA Super Smash Brothers look-a-likes I can make my way to jk3files and do so, but no other mod features the time, the effort, the originality, the creativity that OJP features.

I want to keep it that way, quality over quantity. As for the guns, the two main problems we face now are:
-Time; Ace is picky about features because of his very limited time. He'll need to start working soon and he won't have much or any time even for OJP.

-Coding difficulty; We have a few on and off coders, no offense to all of you that HAVE contributed, but for me the main chieftains are Ensiform and Razor Ace. Ensi has made a start on weapon slots and would like to try to implement the possibility of adding new weapons, Razor would like that too but it seems like a very daunting task. And if you look at the first problem (time) you question and wonder about the possibilities.. One new gun (and the possibility of adding new ones later on, hopefully from people like Ensiform that will still be interested in contuining OJP) or a lot of other features?

Now I have nothing against new weapons being added, nothing against features or ideas being plucked from different mods here and there, but I am against overdoing it and making this mod into something that we've already seen. I pleaded for OJP to switch to Siege Mode a time ago and now I really look back at that post in shame.

The mental gap seems to be filling quickly as I notice how naive I was then, I'll probably regret this post even more later..
Back to the subject. Lets not start losing sight of the forest because of the trees, OJP 0.1.0 is done, it's polishing time. Polishing may mean ironing out the final bugs, but polishing may also mean adding more skills.
But I do not think polishing means overhauling the weapon slot system just to add a couple of weapons that we've all seen and used before.

I personally WOULD do it for the DE-10 though, the weapon is just magnificent. SWG or not, it's an overlooked weapon that with the right settings could give gunners just that bit of extra choice to hang on to OJP much longer.

If (read when) we get our sh1t together, and if our coders (not being ingrateful for their very nice work already :)) are still up to the seemingly daunting task if we can believe Razor, then I would gladly accept any and all weapons into OJP. Bring 'em on.

To finish up though, for now, I would just like to see a prototype gun be installed if possible. Just to see if it works. If people (team) don't (doesn't) want that, then at least lets try and pitch in and add some groovy skill, gadget additions or weapon/forcepower tweaks?

razorace
11-15-2006, 07:05 PM
Speaking of permissions, everyone, please remember to harass this "Tobe" fellow so we can get permission to use his flame effects for the flamethrower!

Secondly, I think we should clarify that Enhanced v0.1.0 isn't finished yet. We're very close, but there still additional skills and features that I'd like to get into the release before we call it v0.1.0.

JRHockney*
11-15-2006, 07:11 PM
Why should we be the gazzilionth mod to have clone rifles or DH-17's?

Well, after all the "its not movierealistic" talk we've done, it would be a shame not to include weapons that are actually from the movies. I've always liked the clone rifle myself.

0.1.0 is done, it's polishing time.

I'm still slow to say that. There are still features and changes that I've wanted in this version for a long time and I hope they get in before the release. And since this may very well be the last build that razor does lead on, I'm not as concerned about how long its been since our last release since depending on how OJP's future pans out and what kind of help we get, this version may be as good as it gets.

More skills are important though, but I think offering more options in general on the point menu is equally important. Ideally, if we are really going to excel in the type of open gameplay we're going for, our menu should be packed full of options. I mean, if you take a mod like MB2 or maybe even FM3 and you look at the total amount possible skills between all the classes, they total up to alot more than what we have now, and we're trying to go for ultimate customization. We should at least try to come close.

Also, for the sake of appealing to more traditional players, it might be worth it to have some preset point combinations kind of like how it has it for force powers (i.e swashbuckler, etc.). Except with guns and items, we could make sort of psuedo classes and just call certain combos "mandolorian" or "soldier" or whatever we come up with. Since their more or less pseudo classes, we wouldn't have to worry too much about balance unless we find players and servers actually use them or even want class only setups.

UDM
11-15-2006, 10:12 PM
Speaking of permissions, everyone, please remember to harass this "Tobe" fellow so we can get permission to use his flame effects for the flamethrower!

Secondly, I think we should clarify that Enhanced v0.1.0 isn't finished yet. We're very close, but there still additional skills and features that I'd like to get into the release before we call it v0.1.0.
He hasn't replied to my post at jk2files yet. He didn't upload his email either. But I'll look around and try to get it anyway

UDM
11-15-2006, 10:19 PM
Max: yes I do agree, Ensi and Razor have been doing almost all of the work as of late. You guys are awesome :)

On to what I want to post: actually I believe we should agree on a mainstream system that OJP wants to head into, and then split up into divisions. For example, one group works on adding new skills, one group works on the maps ie if we're going co-op, one group works on adding everything together, one group works on beta testing, one on animations, one on modelling etc. I think that due to our limited number of contributors, we'll just have to make the best of what we can do, and prioritise the importance of each job so that those who can multi task eg. modeller cum mapper can work on the more immediate task first

Sushi_CW
11-15-2006, 11:23 PM
Some comments and ideas that mostly apply here, although some of it might actually belong in the saber combat thread (sorry).

My experience with the flamethrower is also that it is overpowered, although that is mostly because it is cheap (a mere 8 points) and impossible to block or counter in any way.
Some possible ideas for balancing it (we could use whatever combination seems best):

1. Make it so that having Absorb skill reduces the damage taken.
2. Make it so that force pushing a flamethrower sends the flame back at the attacker for a second and gives the target a reprieve (while damaging the attacker).
2a. Same as above, but automatic like rocket-pushing.
3. Make the flamethrower more expensive.

I like #2 best in terms of balance, although making a visual effect for it might prove difficult.


---
I like the new kicks, they look cool and are much easier to use. Unfortunately, now that kicks are so easy to make, they are spammable. I was able to routinely kill any bot with nothing but kicks. Possible ways to fix this:

1. Remove the ability to block while kicking. Now that kicks are so much faster, I don't know if we need it.
2. Kick-blocking of some kind. I favor making it so that you can't get kicked over while crouching..more on balancing crouch below.

I remember at one point someone suggested making it so that you can't use a saber while crouched. I didn't like that idea before, but I think there is a good deal of merit to it now. :) I think the idea could work if the rules for crouching with a saber out are as follows:
1. Players would be able to deflect blaster fire.
2. Players would be able to block saber attacks with a 2X damage penalty.
3. Players would NOT be able to swing their saber while crouched, EXCEPT for moves that require crouching (lunge, staff twirl, dual twirl).


---
I think making gun accuracy depend on stand/crouch/run is a good idea. It would also be nice if there was some way to get more ammo for your guns... right now, when you're out, you're stuck with the pistol and flamethrower. We should either let ammo spawn on the maps again or add a gradual recharge for at least some kinds of ammo.

UDM
11-16-2006, 12:18 AM
I'm with the gradual recharge option. The bigger the weapon, the slower the recharge rate. So a rocket would pop into your rocket launcher like say...once every 30 seconds, while a blaster bolt would pop in like 1 every 3 seconds

JRHockney*
11-16-2006, 04:29 AM
1. Remove the ability to block while kicking. Now that kicks are so much faster, I don't know if we need it.

I think razor is looking into that. I suggested making it so that you can only block on the opposite side of your kick, thus making it more usable for two on one situations and he had me submit a ticket for it. If that can't be done, then yeah I think we shouldn't allow blocking in kick either.

I'm also worried that the flamethrower is unbalanced against saber as well but I havent been able to test it against areal person yet.

I'm with the gradual recharge option. The bigger the weapon, the slower the recharge rate. So a rocket would pop into your rocket launcher like say...once every 30 seconds, while a blaster bolt would pop in like 1 every 3 seconds


Probably a good idea. 30 seconds might be a bit too lng though.

Finneh
11-16-2006, 03:31 PM
I'd make the rocket fire rate the same as SW battlefront, whcih i believe is 6-7 seconds, which is a decent rate.

As for the blaster rifle skills, I think their alrite but I still think the power shot, rapid shot, scope, etc skills would make it much better. Just give a scope button that is seperate of the alt key, and away you go. Also if you are to have a scope, it should have either a faster moving projectile that does more damage or a kind of beam that comes out.

As for gun leveling, you could instead give default fire higher rate of fire, and more accurate shots. If you've played FM III, for some classes repeater is really inaccurate and others its pretty accurate. I think this can be implemented into this mod, for example:

Repeater lvl 1 - You get repeater and well shoot XD

Repeater Lvl 2 - Fire rate increased, accuracy is higher

Repeater lvl 3 - Fire rate is further increased and accuracy is very good.

And for rapid shot, on FM III, the super battle droid has extremely high rate of fire. Rapid fire should do that. For each level it shoots faster and faster.

Power shot should just fire liek the pistol alt fire does and sends a big charge at an enemy.

If you dont want a seperate scope key, you can just make it alt fire and make it so that if you have scope, you cant get power shot or rapid shot, and vice versa..

Also I think the rocket is great, its perfect XD

{TheChosenOne}
11-16-2006, 03:49 PM
To add on to the comment on flamethrowers, I agree they are pretty badly overpowered as well as them having a huge damaging arc. I played on a server today and it only took 2 flames to kill someone. It also recharges so fast which isn't exactly a great thing.

Maxstate
11-16-2006, 04:29 PM
Yes, really Ace, having the fuel recharge isn't a really good idea.
If you really want it to recharge, make it do so VERY SLOWLY.

Next up: The jetpack...

razorace
11-16-2006, 07:03 PM
We could disable the fuel regen but that would make the jetpack run out of fuel quickly. Alternatively, we could just have the jetpack not use fuel and make the fuel exclusively for the flamethrower.

JRHockney*
11-16-2006, 08:05 PM
To add on to the comment on flamethrowers, I agree they are pretty badly overpowered as well as them having a huge damaging arc. I played on a server today and it only took 2 flames to kill someone. It also recharges so fast which isn't exactly a great thing.

You know, the more I think about it, they might not be quite as overpowered as we think. In MB2, probably the best way for a jedi to kill a mando flamethrower is to use speed. Maybe in tonights playtest you guys can test that. I probably wont be around again until later if that. :(

Maxstate
11-17-2006, 03:28 AM
You know, the more I think about it, they might not be quite as overpowered as we think. In MB2, probably the best way for a jedi to kill a mando flamethrower is to use speed. Maybe in tonights playtest you guys can test that. I probably wont be around again until later if that. :(
Well if we get to adding that SWBF2 sprint idea of mine no balancing would be required.

{TheChosenOne}
11-17-2006, 05:28 AM
I think the fuel on a jetpack shouldn't recarge at all but all the drains from it are really small.

UDM
11-17-2006, 06:17 AM
That'd be a major problem then, especially for players who are reliant on the jetpack to get around. They would rely on "kill" to "recharge" their jetpack, and thats not what we want, now do we? :)

{TheChosenOne}
11-17-2006, 07:31 AM
That'd be a major problem then, especially for players who are reliant on the jetpack to get around. They would rely on "kill" to "recharge" their jetpack, and thats not what we want, now do we? :)

Unless someone was extremely skilled they would die regardless when using jetpack before it runs out. Also I wouldn't exactly want some uber experienced guy having an infinite recharge on something on the level of a jetpack, especially coupled with flamethrower. I think that the drain on "fuel" should be extremely small but not rechargable.

Limiting jetpack would also make them pick and choose rather than jetting everywhere, same with flame. Saving it for the harder targets or jedi in general.

OT: On a side note flamethrower can be used WHILE using jetpack which essentially means an untouchable enemy that does immense amounts of damage.

OT2: I was wondering if someone could change the visuals on jetpack as it looks.....bleh...I don't particularly like the blue stuff.

razorace
11-17-2006, 08:06 AM
It's not exactly unfair. Jedi get regenerating FP.

Maxstate
11-17-2006, 09:14 AM
It's not exactly unfair. Jedi get regenerating FP.
But when Jedi's FP is drained it leaves them open qua speed and power.
They can't use their sabers, Force and can't outrun anyone to regen their FP because they are fatigued.

Plus Jedi's Force Powers have a small death ratio compared to the flamethrower.

Just make it regen SLOW.

Maxstate
11-19-2006, 04:26 PM
Something I posted in the bug tracker:

It seems to me that gunners are currently very overpowered.

Hold your horses! I'm not done yet.

Okay so remember what we had planned guys?
Remember that we were gonna tread into the footsteps of an old mod that rewarded people that took a specific skilltree with high level weapons?
Remember that the thing was that gunners with high level weapons could not get high level force powers, and Jedi shouldn't be able to get high level guns or explosives, or gadgets for that matter?

Why can gunners get all the guns , a flamethrower, Jump 3 AND lightning 3 without facing a single penalty?

Is this the way you guys want it to be? Intend it to be? Or are we still facing some changes on the matter of rewarding non-hybrid classes like we planned up front?

Because seriously, if this is how it's gonna stay then I'm thinking about disabling guns at the Euro servers.. As I said before, gunners have everything Jedi have and more. They can use lightning 3 to drain your dp and face no penalties at all since they don't use their DP for anything, they can use up their FP jumping away and avoiding your saber slashes while still shooting you with Jump 3 at the cost of 1 FP per jump, and if you replace 'gun' by 'flamethrower' or 'rocketlauncher'...

They could also just use the flamethrower on you as long as they want and use Jump 3 to stay ahead of you, and since OJP has an excellent hit detection system , killing gunners that use this strategy is marvelously random and uncertain.

Fighting gunners as of late is just becoming alltogether frustrating. I've been playing OJP with friends during the whole week, replacing most at-home activities I had planned. But I haven't played it for 2 days ever since gunners came rushin' in with their new abuse-everything strategies..

Seriously, as I just said, being JUST a jedi is not rewarding anymore. I'm ALL for having maximum customization options, but I don't want Jedi to become an incomplete class build or a rudimentary saying in OJP..

Can I get some response to my questions here?

JRHockney*
11-19-2006, 07:38 PM
I tend to agree here. Originally, I suggested that people with guns out only get level 1 force powers so they can at least block force powers they have while walking. I think that might be at least one way to do it.

ensiform
11-19-2006, 10:49 PM
Possible Bacta Level 3:

Give 6 health points every 3 seconds if your health plus 6 is less than your max health, if not and is still less than max just set to max.

/*
==================
ClientTimerActions

Actions that happen once a second
==================
*/
void ClientTimerActions( gentity_t *ent, int msec ) {
gclient_t *client;
//
static int numSecs = 0;
//

client = ent->client;
client->timeResidual += msec;

while ( client->timeResidual >= 1000 )
{
client->timeResidual -= 1000;

//
if(++numSecs == 3) {
numSecs = 0;
// bacta stuff
if(client->skillLevel[SK_BACTA] == FORCE_LEVEL_3) {
int give = 6;
if ( ent->health+give < client->ps.stats[STAT_MAX_HEALTH] ) {
ent->health += give;
} else if ( ent->health >= client->ps.stats[STAT_MAX_HEALTH] ) {
// do nothing here
} else {
ent->health = client->ps.stats[STAT_MAX_HEALTH];
}
}
}
//

// count down health when over max
if ( ent->health > client->ps.stats[STAT_MAX_HEALTH] ) {
ent->health--;
}

//
/*
// count down armor when over max
if ( client->ps.stats[STAT_ARMOR] > client->ps.stats[STAT_MAX_HEALTH] ) {
client->ps.stats[STAT_ARMOR]--;
}
*/
//
}
}

razorace
11-20-2006, 05:15 PM
I keep thinking we need some sort of score adjustor to balance out the jedi vs gunners. Perhaps we should have one where unallocated skill points give you more score?

The real question is, how should we keep score with the new experience system? Maybe in terms of damage dealt + objectives accomplished?

As for level 3 bacta, do we really want to have a power that gives perminate health regeneration? That just seems unbalancing to me.

UDM
11-21-2006, 12:55 AM
Agreed. Instead, what about having bacta respawn in your inventory per skill level of bacta? Every merc is given 3 bacta, but at level 1, the bacta respawns only at a rate of 1 per 5 mins. At level 2, bacta respawns at a rate of 1 per 3 mins. At level 3, bacta respawns at a rate of 1 per 2 mins

razorace
11-21-2006, 01:21 AM
That's an interesting alternative. :)

JRHockney*
11-21-2006, 01:39 AM
The real question is, how should we keep score with the new experience system? Maybe in terms of damage dealt + objectives accomplished?

I guess that would work for the score system, but your talking about Coop as far as the Objectives are concerned right?

But anyways, like maxstate said, certain point combinations with guns will be too powerful no matter what point system we have. There needs to be certain restrictions for while are using guns. My suggestion I posted above I think would help balance things out alot.

Why can gunners get all the guns , a flamethrower, Jump 3 AND lightning 3 without facing a single penalty?

I agree, but this is another reason why I thought flame thrower should be a weapon rather than an item. The flame thrower is just too powerful when combined with bigger weapons. You should have to switch back and forth so its a bit more balanced.

razorace
11-21-2006, 02:01 AM
I was talking about any gametype where you have situations other than killing that should get players should get score from. Like CTF, Siege, etc.

If the individual powers are that over powering, we need to tweak them back into balance.

ensiform
11-21-2006, 11:06 AM
I guess that would work for the score system, but your talking about Coop as far as the Objectives are concerned right?

But anyways, like maxstate said, certain point combinations with guns will be too powerful no matter what point system we have. There needs to be certain restrictions for while are using guns. My suggestion I posted above I think would help balance things out alot.



I agree, but this is another reason why I thought flame thrower should be a weapon rather than an item. The flame thrower is just too powerful when combined with bigger weapons. You should have to switch back and forth so its a bit more balanced.

Well if you want to have the flamethrower be a weapon, check out the flamethrower code from ET, then just convert the effects to an FX.

JRHockney*
11-23-2006, 12:08 AM
Well if you want to have the flamethrower be a weapon, check out the flamethrower code from ET, then just convert the effects to an FX.

Love to, but I haven't been able to get my code to compile since you added that crash code because I think it uses those Win32 files that I don't have. I've tried a few ways of adding them back in, but none seemed to work. Until I have the time or patience to sit down again and find a better solution, all I can do is make suggestions here. :P

robo85045
11-23-2006, 12:08 AM
I am going to derail this conversation for a moment and jump back to the possibility of changing weapon accuracy while moving. For an experimental mod based on ojp-e, I already set up its weapon code to allow overrides of velocity/damage/rate of fire, and the rest. I can work it in, if you feel that this is something we will do.

Btw I finished the 'seeker npc' code I mentioned here earlier, currently it acts thusly:

When the player uses the seeker item, the seeker npc is spawned but the player keeps the item.

The player can 'use' the seeker item again to command the npc to do actions, the actions are dependant on what the aim target is.

If the player is aiming at an enemy, the seeker will actively chase and hunt that enemy.

If the player is aiming at an ally, the seeker will follow and protect that ally

If the player is aiming at nothing, the seeker will go to the place they aimed at and circle around until it finds and enemy, then go after it.

I have included code ready to take the skill settings for the total blaster shots before it explodes (or drops to the floor with no ammo, THEN explode. I will work on that sp feature), damage per shot, and adjust the min and max time between shots fired.

Also I included as an experiment the ability to have the seeker act as a radar, and beep faster the closer an enemy player is to it. The range is settable in the seeker spawn code, so it can be scaled based on skill or disabled completely. It includes options to force a line of sight from the seeker or have it act as more radarish and pick up players through walls


I will upload it as soon as I get the ok and svn access from razorace.

Anyway, for the flamethrower:
just throwing this idea out there, it probably uses too many ents too rapidly to be feasible, but what if each 'flame' from the affect was an entity itself, allowing it to burn and damage you as it passes through you, and also allowing the player to run while flaming and actually get hurt by their own fire.
Or we could do it the cheap way and just force damage onto the player if they are moving with a certain forward speed while flaming.

I like the flamethrower how it is, at any rate. It isn't a quick jet burst like the other mods that I played have, but more of a realistic billowing flame.

Maxstate
11-23-2006, 05:46 AM
I am going to derail this conversation for a moment and jump back to the possibility of changing weapon accuracy while moving. For an experimental mod based on ojp-e, I already set up its weapon code to allow overrides of velocity/damage/rate of fire, and the rest. I can work it in, if you feel that this is something we will do.

Btw I finished the 'seeker npc' code I mentioned here earlier, currently it acts thusly:

When the player uses the seeker item, the seeker npc is spawned but the player keeps the item.

The player can 'use' the seeker item again to command the npc to do actions, the actions are dependant on what the aim target is.

If the player is aiming at an enemy, the seeker will actively chase and hunt that enemy.

If the player is aiming at an ally, the seeker will follow and protect that ally

If the player is aiming at nothing, the seeker will go to the place they aimed at and circle around until it finds and enemy, then go after it.

I have included code ready to take the skill settings for the total blaster shots before it explodes (or drops to the floor with no ammo, THEN explode. I will work on that sp feature), damage per shot, and adjust the min and max time between shots fired.

Also I included as an experiment the ability to have the seeker act as a radar, and beep faster the closer an enemy player is to it. The range is settable in the seeker spawn code, so it can be scaled based on skill or disabled completely. It includes options to force a line of sight from the seeker or have it act as more radarish and pick up players through walls


I will upload it as soon as I get the ok and svn access from razorace.

Anyway, for the flamethrower:
just throwing this idea out there, it probably uses too many ents too rapidly to be feasible, but what if each 'flame' from the affect was an entity itself, allowing it to burn and damage you as it passes through you, and also allowing the player to run while flaming and actually get hurt by their own fire.
Or we could do it the cheap way and just force damage onto the player if they are moving with a certain forward speed while flaming.

I like the flamethrower how it is, at any rate. It isn't a quick jet burst like the other mods that I played have, but more of a realistic billowing flame.

That is SO awesome :D Great job man, I'm all pro if you're implementing it.
I had a few feature ideas for it though, maybe you would like them:

-Give the seeker a lightning/stun feature that only works up close but slows people down a bit.
-Make the sentry pushable, and when it hits something/someone after being pushed it ASSPLODES :D

I'll post more ideas later when I'm out of school.

This is a great feature, thanks and godspeed with your other projects.

JRHockney*
11-23-2006, 12:51 PM
I am going to derail this conversation for a moment and jump back to the possibility of changing weapon accuracy while moving. For an experimental mod based on ojp-e, I already set up its weapon code to allow overrides of velocity/damage/rate of fire, and the rest. I can work it in, if you feel that this is something we will do.

Sounds like a pretty good idea to me. We could even make a greater accuracy while running point level feature for it as well. It shoud be expensive though.

Btw I finished the 'seeker npc' code I mentioned here earlier, currently it acts thusly:

When the player uses the seeker item, the seeker npc is spawned but the player keeps the item.

The player can 'use' the seeker item again to command the npc to do actions, the actions are dependant on what the aim target is.

If the player is aiming at an enemy, the seeker will actively chase and hunt that enemy.

If the player is aiming at an ally, the seeker will follow and protect that ally

If the player is aiming at nothing, the seeker will go to the place they aimed at and circle around until it finds and enemy, then go after it.

I have included code ready to take the skill settings for the total blaster shots before it explodes (or drops to the floor with no ammo, THEN explode. I will work on that sp feature), damage per shot, and adjust the min and max time between shots fired.

Also I included as an experiment the ability to have the seeker act as a radar, and beep faster the closer an enemy player is to it. The range is settable in the seeker spawn code, so it can be scaled based on skill or disabled completely. It includes options to force a line of sight from the seeker or have it act as more radarish and pick up players through walls

Wow, that would be an awsome feature. Do you think that this idea and some of the code could also be applied to maybe a small squad of NPC soldiers or tabbots? If so, It would make for a cool extra feature as well as make them smarter than your average FM3 following soldier. They should also have the ability to stay in one place if you tell them to. The point system would be based on how many you have following you or maybe the types of weapons they have. Of course there would also have to be an exception for them not to shoot you if their aimed at you. :P

Maxstate
11-23-2006, 01:00 PM
Skill ASSPLOZN!!!

Btw Hocks, I'd like you to test something out with me if you have the time in the next 5 or so hours?

JRHockney*
11-23-2006, 01:46 PM
Skill ASSPLOZN!!!

Btw Hocks, I'd like you to test something out with me if you have the time in the next 5 or so hours?

Sorry, I can't. I have like 4 places to go this Thanksgiving so I'm very busy. Btw, HAPPY THANKSGIVING EVERYONE!!!!!!!

razorace
11-23-2006, 03:45 PM
I am going to derail this conversation for a moment and jump back to the possibility of changing weapon accuracy while moving. For an experimental mod based on ojp-e, I already set up its weapon code to allow overrides of velocity/damage/rate of fire, and the rest. I can work it in, if you feel that this is something we will do.
What do you mean by overrides?

Btw I finished the 'seeker npc' code I mentioned here earlier, currently it acts thusly:
neat. Send me the modified files and I'll have a look. :)

I have included code ready to take the skill settings for the total blaster shots before it explodes (or drops to the floor with no ammo, THEN explode. I will work on that sp feature), damage per shot, and adjust the min and max time between shots fired.
If we're going to be using it as an item, I think we need to have it be consistant no matter what the npc skill level is set to.

Anyway, for the flamethrower:
just throwing this idea out there, it probably uses too many ents too rapidly to be feasible, but what if each 'flame' from the affect was an entity itself, allowing it to burn and damage you as it passes through you, and also allowing the player to run while flaming and actually get hurt by their own fire.
Or we could do it the cheap way and just force damage onto the player if they are moving with a certain forward speed while flaming.
It's an interesting idea, but I'm worried about the CPU cost. We've already been hitting the CPU wall with the super duper saber interpolation and adding something with multiple traces per second might be too much.

Maxstate
11-28-2006, 06:01 PM
So are we getting anything in?

I mean, can I stop posting ideas now or what?

razorace
11-28-2006, 06:27 PM
I've added skills for cloaking and using the force field items. Beyond that, I'm simply not sure how much time I'm going to have before the release deadline. In terms of priorties, I'm working on bug fixes and plan on adding in accuracy modeling for the gunners.

ensiform
11-28-2006, 07:01 PM
Hmm I believe force field is missing a desc on the force powers menu or it isn't showing up. One of the two isn't afaik. But the text shows itself just not desc.

razorace
11-28-2006, 08:02 PM
bug ticket time then. :)

razorace
12-06-2006, 01:15 AM
FYI, I've been getting a lot of flak over the "lack" of skills. I just wanted to point out that SVN OJP Enhanced version has 11 Jedi skills and 12 gunner skills.

UDM
12-06-2006, 12:07 PM
Awesome! When do we get to beta test it?

razorace
12-06-2006, 03:52 PM
Probably thursday.

Lathain Valtiel
12-08-2006, 07:56 PM
I agree, but this is another reason why I thought flame thrower should be a weapon rather than an item. The flame thrower is just too powerful when combined with bigger weapons. You should have to switch back and forth so its a bit more balanced.

Sure, go ahead. But only if you make it so that Lightning, Push, Pull, etc etc are all weapons.

Honestly, the flamer is not that powerful. I got killed 50% or so of the time I used it on you guys because the saber is a superior weapon against it provided that you have decent aim with it. Plus, you could all just lightning me down if it's such a problem, or Push me away, Pull me down, Jump, et cetera.

UDM
12-09-2006, 08:49 AM
I agree with Lathain, now that I've tested the new flamethrower in-game. It's better off as a gadget, a side weapon if you would like it to be called that, than a main weapon. I'd die all the time if I used it as a main weapon lol, but as a complement, it works very well right now. Plus, ammo runs out very fast too, so you can't dominate a group of 10 Jedi just by combo-ing flamethrower and rocket launcher

Maxstate
01-26-2007, 05:14 PM
About classes:

OJP has no classes, and to be honest I prefer it this way.
But it is also one of the most frustrating things about OJP. I'm not going to stress gunner/Jedi bull crap anymore as I see noone really wants to split them, so I think I might've conjured up a new, more RPG (diablo style, not role play) type gameplay that might be able to change the feel of OJP slightly but benefit it's playability a lot.

Foreword
People need to belong. Belong to what? Anything. Non-conformity doesn't exist, punk was a clique, type seeks type. What does this have to do with OJP? Well, part of the magic behind MovieBattles is that it makes you really feel like you really belong to the specific group or faction and it really makes you feel like you are actually fighting for a cause. In short; saving Leia never felt so real.

Again, no need to stress relevance - I'm getting to it.

The magic of JO was also extremely well performed : the lively cutscenes, very humane story, the illusion of actual personality and character in the roles and well-crafted maps and saber mechanics made JO feel like a world that was alive.
The main character's story, background and the game's sense of achievement through illustration and gameplay made it feel like you were really an actual Jedi and it gave you the willpower (and later satisfaction) to continue on with the game's story because you wanted to uncover the story, you wanted to progress and use new powers, you wanted to discover the Jedi way.

Jedi Academy had two angsty emo teens with no background at all as main characters, supported only by ghosts of real characters and personalities from the old games in lacking, undescriptive and boring cutscenes.
Jaden's past, his lack of Jedi training, his inability to block any incoming lightsaber attacks, the mystery of where his saber came from, his lack of personality and charm, his lack of a goal to strive for (I mean come on, who actually WANTS to save Rosh? He's totally ghey!) combined with the insanely crap maps, further saber and gun mechanics and uselessness of all save bar ONE force power made Jedi Academy into Jedi Outcast's more... handicapped nephew.

Where OJP comes in

OJP... So what did we do?
We did quite a lot actually. We fixed the saber system, added a new Skill-based character upgrading system and so much much more.. but OJP is lacking 'the feel' of a real Jedi and Sith mod.

Why?

Let me dissect our skill system if I may:
-2 offensive force powers
-5 neutral force powers
-3 useless Saber powers

That's the choices a Jedi gets. Yeah I know.
And don't tell me we didn't have time or they were fine before, lets try and look ahead for now.

Okay, without too much kicking-while-they're down I'm going to lay my opinion down on this as short as possible here:

We do not need extra powers (although this would be very nice) and we don't need total changes in powers either, but we need something to go for and we need something to look at for help so we can stop cruising around aimlessly between so many factors that decide what the mod is going to look like. Movie realism, realism, personal preference, balance.. let us please pick one!
Or for all our sakes, let us combine them into something we can work with and not use double standards for every idea and suggestion, for every addition we make!

Personally I think force powers should be replacements for Jedi Abilities passively, as well as active (but retooled) force powers.
Every time I go to my profile screen and click on something new, I want to feel the achievement that I did in JO when I finished a map.

..

But how can we do this?
Well firstly, we should look at the Force Powers' effects and think about how we could make them better.

Who here knows the difference between Push 1, 2 and 3?
I sure as hell don't, other than their effects against Absorb.

And who of you knows what level of Force Pull pulls weapons from players?

..

Exactly.

Not to overcomplicate things, here is a list of things I think should be changed with the Force powers' active functions:

Active functions

General:
-The profile screen should be enlarged and new icons should be introduced to Force Powers. Hint: Holocube thingies!

-Selecting a force power (PER LEVEL) will tell you exactly what it does and what kind of effects it will produce, nothing indepth, push 2 should state "increased chance to push person over, repels gunfire and explosives" while Push 3 could have something like "Best chance to push person over, repels gunfire and explosives".

-Skillpoints should be harder to earn, and while Ace didn't like the "level" idea, (go up in levels where you can spend points after you reach a specific amount, this amount would heighten after every level) Ace's interest level is low and the time for the mice to dance on the table has come.
We don't need to try new things, but we need to find a solution to the 'feel' problem.

OJP is not so much a complete mod because it is a collection of unrelated skills and reminds one more of quake 3 with lightsabers than of a real Jedi mod.
This is not what I want, this is not what the JKA community wants, HALP.

-Force Regeneration should increase when one stands still.

Force powers:


-Push 1:
Pushes only projectiles and gunfire.

-Push 2:
Pushes people over in their place.

-Push 3:
Pushes everything, as well as people away from the user and to the ground.

==========
-

Pull 2:
When aimed at the person and the person is at low DP and/or high mishap, the gun from the person is pulled to the floor.




Passive powers: (Ingame profile bonus names are shown in red, please use these as pointers or use them ingame to provide for more immersability)

Sense 3: Jedi Defense/Lightning reflexes
Enables autopushing.
-While in sense, mishap lowers faster Awareness

Sense 2: Good feeling
Ability to spot ammo and health packs as well as weapons close to you in Sense mode.
=====
-

Saber Defense 1 Parry training:
Increases Jedi DP amount by 5

Saber Defense 2 Adv. Parry training :
Increases Jedi Dp amount by 10

Saber Defense 3: Master parry training
Increases Jedi DP amount by 20

=====
--
Saber defense 1 (deflection) Deflection training :
10% deflection rate towards crosshair if walking or standing still.

Saber Defense 2 (deflection) ADv. Deflection training:
35% deflection rate towards crosshair if walking or standing still.

Saber defense 3 (deflection): Master Deflection
50% deflection rate if standing still, 35% if walking.
-Enables manual deflect which is done by power attacks and provides for a 100% reflect rate for one shot.
=====
-

Push 3/ Pull 3 combination Psychokinetic training
The Jedi is immune to area pushing or pulling and can only be pulled if the crosshair of the opponent is near them.

=====
--
Saber attack 3: Offensive saberist
Saber perks are visually enabled.
-Melee attacks do more damage.

Saber attack 2: Ignore pain
Damage reduction for explosives




=====
--
Speed 3: Perfect conditioning
While in sprint mode, ability to deflect is enabled.
Level 1 and 2 do not allow deflecting while sprinting and will force a dodge.
-Katas are done faster (melee grapples)

Speed 2: Hand-to-Hand combat training
Melee punches are sped up

Speed 1: Sokan training
Rolling (also sideways) will be easier to do and will be sped up if you roll from sprint mode to enable dodging shots. But doing a speedroll will cost 3 FP, and 30 DP if you get hit in one.
====
-
Jump 2: Soft landing
-Force Fall enabled

Jump 3: Balance control
-Ability to stay upright even when hit by explosives (only a good kick can knock you down)

=====
--
Absorb level 2: Endurance training
Increases HP to 125 at start of level

Absorb 3: Survival training
Increases HP to 150 at start of level
I would also like to suggest that both profile screen, saber selection, style changing and the likes get a more Jedi feel to them. I want to be able to click profile and immediately identify my faction and specialities from the lisst, as well as the bonuses I've earned in an eye's turn.

Tried digging up the file that determines the look of the profile screen but haven't been succesful, any help? I'll be glad to give it a more Jedi look.

Also, the introduction of the common attributes like strength, dexterity and stamina would also be a good idea to specialise a Jedi or gunner more.
Each would have their own bonuses and only one or two could be bought.
But I would be content if we used the force powers themselves as well.

Now as most of my posts I would like to make it clear that this is not exactly what I want, I try to post these things with as little as personal preference as I can so to give you guys a more neutral, objective ground to shape and mold to something you like too. None of this HAS to go in, but if SOME of it did (changed or not) I would be very happy.

*flame shelter*

madcatmach2
01-27-2007, 12:05 PM
i achully like these ideas alout i would love to see them implemented if not just for the menu stuff saying what u have but i would love to see how these force ideas affect game play and see if it adds new crazy fighting strategy's

Lathain Valtiel
01-27-2007, 02:05 PM
Saber Attack 2's bonus is ridiculous, and worse yet it has nothing to do with saber attacking at all. Learning saber attacking ability is not going to help you when a rocket is shoved in your face.

JRHockney*
01-28-2007, 11:47 PM
Well, the ideas arent too bad, but I'm not sure I like most of them enough to try and code them myself. Too much crap to figure out. Maybe if Razor likes them, but he hasn't been around much so I wouldn't count on it too much. I'll look into a few of them, but I'm not sure its worth changing them too far from where they are now. I just don't see the real benefit of changing them that way compared to spending time to add new features or skills.

Btw, can anyone explain to me how to add things to the skill menu? I'd like to add back mindtrick and maybe the repeater so I can experiment with the code for them.

Maxstate
01-29-2007, 06:37 AM
Good good, as I said I never post these lists to be taken completely seriously and fully.
It's up to the real people in charge (Hocks, Razor, Lathain to mention some) to decide what they want and how much of it they want.

But I must say that adding new skills wouldn't be quite a good idea as it would probably sow more confusion among noobs (and among experts that haven't/don't want to read the code in order to get it). If you ask me, we need to look at the powers we've got and add more depth and simplicity to them.

Imagine all the powers stay the same and you add mindtrick.
You'll have 5 or even 10 minutes of fun after you spend a nice amount of time figuring out when it works (when saturn and venus are in one line and your opponent is jumping while he has low DP :p) Afterwards I think the power -how fun it might be- won't be of any use since:

1:
OJP's gameplay is similar to the Quake 3 Arena styled games. Meaning, whenever you add gunners or gun powers to the game it becomes hit-and-run game where killing someone is pretty useless unless you're going for the scorepoints (:rolleyes:), because they will respawn immediately, and while you're busy with taking one person out another one will shoot or finish you off when you kill your target.
Or if you're really lucky, your target will respawn and shoot you himself.
People need to rip their attention away from the 1 on 1's we see a lot in OJP and need to start thinking how it would (will) be when OJP gets a bigger following.


2:
More easier to use but very indepth and strategic powers will LAST LONGER when you think of fun factor. They might not have the 10-minute-WOW effect that a repeater or mindtrick is going to have, but they will have the power to last even through OJP's betatesting period and all the way down the road to a final (read big) release.

But I'll leave it at that before I get phlamed lawl.

JRHockney*
01-30-2007, 10:03 PM
But I must say that adding new skills wouldn't be quite a good idea as it would probably sow more confusion among noobs (and among experts that haven't/don't want to read the code in order to get it). If you ask me, we need to look at the powers we've got and add more depth and simplicity to them.

Maybe, but I'm more worried about people wondering why the heck we took out all those force powers to begin with and having them think we sold them short. I just don't see the whole "less is more" philosophy working that well for the JKA community that hasn't tried us yet.

Anyways, in other news, I finally got a working server!... I think. I haven't played on it with anyone yet so I don't know how stable it is. But yeah You'll all be able to try out my new code changes there when its up, and I'll try to keep it up whenever possible, but if it crashes, I might not be around to fix it then. At the moment, its called "Jon's Test Server" It should just show up on your server list, but if it doesnt, this is the IP for the moment: 67.176.58.32:29070. If its slow or laggy, thats because its on a laptop and I'm no expert in server efficiency :p

EDIT: It might not be up as often as I hoped. It doesnt seem to last for that long when I have more than one other program running.

Btw, Razor if you get to read this, why did you close the OJP servers stickied thread again? I can't remember.

ensiform
01-31-2007, 04:00 PM
Sense 2: Good feeling
Ability to spot ammo and health packs as well as weapons close to you in Sense mode.

The problem with this Max is that almost all maps use areaportals and or some kind of small amount of distance culling which defeats the purpose of having a SP-like force sense. The only way to get around it is SVF_BROADCAST and that is bad because then it always broadcasts the entity to everyone and can also mean cheating with wall-hacking more.

Maxstate
02-01-2007, 07:37 AM
The problem with this Max is that almost all maps use areaportals and or some kind of small amount of distance culling which defeats the purpose of having a SP-like force sense. The only way to get around it is SVF_BROADCAST and that is bad because then it always broadcasts the entity to everyone and can also mean cheating with wall-hacking more.

It actually already works like this, I can see health and ammo packs stashed in places all around Jedi's_home and that's the only reason I buy more sense.

Most of my ideas have to do with REWARDING people with certain OJP features that we take too much for granted.

ensiform
02-01-2007, 02:16 PM
That's *ONE* map, many maps I have seen, ffa base, all kinds of ctf, duel, and the coop maps haven't really worked so well. I've done it and all it does is create lots of lag because you cannot just turn the flag off when nobody has force sense off.

razorace
02-03-2007, 06:18 PM
Btw, Razor if you get to read this, why did you close the OJP servers stickied thread again? I can't remember.
Too many bogus servers.

Is something wrong with the meatgrinder? People make it sound like it might be down or something.

JRHockney*
02-03-2007, 11:44 PM
I'm not quite sure. Its hasn't been on the server menu for several days. It was having some weird crashing issues a while back but I'm not sure.

Good to see you post again. Where have you been Raz? I havent seen you on IM in ages. We need to catch up.

razorace
02-13-2007, 01:24 PM
I've been busy. Crunch time at work.

As for the meatgrinder, has someone attempted to reset the server?

madcatmach2
02-14-2007, 06:10 PM
i was just about to ask you guys about this i haven't seen meatgrinder templar or your's JRhockney's in awhile any of you guys having this problem also?

JRHockney*
02-15-2007, 06:49 PM
i was just about to ask you guys about this i haven't seen meatgrinder templar or your's JRhockney's in awhile any of you guys having this problem also?

Yeah sorry I've been busy trying to code in the repeater and disruptor so I haven't gotten my server up in a while. The meat grinder has issues I think and the templar server wants to use my code, but has had crash issues with my last released version of it. I've had to keep my server on duel because it seems to crash after a few minutes when I have more than two people playing at the same time. I thought it was just my crappy laptop server, but since the templar server and maxstates has had some problems, it may also be my code.

madcatmach2
02-15-2007, 08:39 PM
ah thow i like the return or the repeater and especially the disruptor my 2 fav guns, if i can find a good vantage spot I'm a hard core sniper hence why i love the kashyyyc map. lots of spots (midgar v2 was good for this also)

JRHockney*
03-28-2007, 01:25 AM
I noticed last night that the disruptor hardly does any DP damage at all, especially for a charged shot. since its that expensive, it should do more DP damage then the other weapons for normal shots and huge damage for charged shot. its not going to make a very fun sniper rifle if the charge shot doesn't do extreme damage. I think it should do 50% DP damage from the front and fatal from the back if they have a saber, and just plain fatal if they don't.

Btw, should back blocks for blaster bolts do a lot more damage?

UDM
03-28-2007, 03:35 AM
Tanq and I agreed that the best solution for the nerfgun aka disruptor right now is to let it hit anything that is moving, with no chance for dodge. If target stops, then he/she can dodge, but if moving, it is a sure hit

1) Moving targets are hard to hit, so snipers should be rewarded for hitting them
2) Can you think of a better solution?

HamstrYODA
03-28-2007, 04:22 AM
i was testing ruptor much yesterday. only use for it was shooting jetpacking people (sometimes jumping sabersist). charged shot = instakill when in midair.

My idea is somehow what UDM said. Remove chance of dodge, so charged shot should be instakill against gunners and jedis who have turned of or lost their saber, also when shot from behind. Jedis should be able to block shots when facing gunner with saber ready. Gunners way to avoid getting sniped could be sense 3(2?).

Other thing, clone rifle. I think it is too crazy at the moment. If you got blobbed, you are most likely get killed if enemy is close and can shoot. Jedi still can beat only pure shooting, even though rate of fire is huge. standing still while deflecting should be enough to do the job. I know blobs can be pushed but on close range fights it is way too hard if opponent keeps blasting with normal fire before that (you only see blue lasers everywhere :p).
solutions? maybe delay after blob (this would make it still effective when used with teammate to beat the jedi)? maybe hugely boosted ammo cost for blobs (15 or so atm)? slightly reduce RoF for normal fire (would make it more balanced in gunner vs gunner combat i think)?

then one question, do seeker droids have limited amount of ammo? it could be my own mistake that seeker stop shooting though...

Sazabi
03-28-2007, 05:57 AM
blobs

hmmm this reminds me of MB2 forums and countless threads of whining :D

Maxstate
03-28-2007, 06:21 AM
Beware: the gunning system is on it's way to the dark side (MB)

I think that we've introduced these two weapons too early now, but it was Hockney's decision.

The sniper rifle's shots should not be dodgable, and should take off quite a bit of DP. Not just in a running state but also when just standing or walking or whatever. In comparison to MB Jedi, OJP Jedi have the advantage of a faster run and walk speed which can cause pretty erratic movements to dodge sniper shots already.

Deflecting should be more powerful than it is now, but should be tweaked to be more balanced too:

-When you shoot a standing jedi that isn't doing anything, not even aiming at you, the bolt should NEVER EVER reflect back towards you.

Also, I was thinking of making deflecting towards your crosshair a Manual Deflect only thing. We would still use the same setup for the Saber Defense powers but the system would work like so:

You can deflect to random locations while just standing and deflecting regardless of your saber defense level, BUT, if you hold your power attack (both buttons) buttons, you will start using your aggressive REflecting skills and for an extra FP cost, you will reflect the shots back at your mouse's crosshair.

Also, Darthdie, could you check out if it would be hard to give higher levels of guns (id est: level 2 and level 3 e-11) higher damages? If it's not too straining for you, I'd like you to try and halve the current damage for e-11 level 1, give level 2 the damage we have now, and give level 3 25% more damage.

Okay.. what else did I want to say.. hmm I think that's it.

Edit: That sentence sounded a bit too pretentious :p changed.

razorace
03-28-2007, 02:31 PM
hmmm this reminds me of MB2 forums and countless threads of whining :D
Solution: NO BLOB FOR YOU! (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e5/Sein_soup_nazi.jpg/180px-Sein_soup_nazi.jpg) ;)

The sniper rifle's shots should not be dodgable, and should take off quite a bit of DP. Not just in a running state but also when just standing or walking or whatever. In comparison to MB Jedi, OJP Jedi have the advantage of a faster run and walk speed which can cause pretty erratic movements to dodge sniper shots already.
Agreed.
You can deflect to random locations while just standing and deflecting regardless of your saber defense level, BUT, if you hold your power attack (both buttons) buttons, you will start using your aggressive REflecting skills and for an extra FP cost, you will reflect the shots back at your mouse's crosshair.
That's doable. I could just go ahead and remove all "luck" from the system and make the player's saber defense level just determine the max level of deflect/reflect that that player can do.

Maxstate
03-28-2007, 05:57 PM
Solution: NO BLOB FOR YOU! (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e5/Sein_soup_nazi.jpg/180px-Sein_soup_nazi.jpg) ;)


Agreed.

That's doable. I could just go ahead and remove all "luck" from the system and make the player's saber defense level just determine the max level of deflect/reflect that that player can do.

That would really help, and I'm doing this in favour of both gunner perspective (you are running away from a jedi shooting at them and your bullet gets reflected back at you while the jedi just RAN at you) and the jedi perspective (getting random, lucky reflection kills without doing anything = no achievement level).

Shall I bug ticket it?

On 009s:

I tried it today and I must say, OJP has just reached another level of awesomeness and I didn't think it was possible. Me and Rev did a team FFA vs 4 jedi with the clone rifle today and it was much fun :D

razorace
03-28-2007, 07:11 PM
Sure, bug ticket it.

JRHockney*
03-28-2007, 07:27 PM
agree, but I wouldnt get rid of the blob just yet. There are ways of making it balanced, and quite frankly, its not overpowered unless the gunner has absorb because jedi can still just force spam them.

We need to find a way to make the pure gunners not get force spammed. I've offered a few ideas in the past (one I coded and it was the 75% DP requirement for using force which made it more of jedi problem then a gunner block, which is more movie realistic) but nothing has become permanent yet.

As for overall balancing, I do kind of like Max's old idea of making three classes: jedi, gunner, and hybrid. I think it would be cool to make everything in the hybrid class would cost ALOT more, like every skill costing 8 points or something like that, so that you couldnt reasonably choose hybrid until you are much higher in skill points.

I had an interesting idea to bring in the OJP droideka and maybe even remote droids for gunners, although I'm not sure if we have the resources for it or not: If you select you select turn this on, you can control a droideka or maybe regular droid depending on the level you select. While you control it, you are standing in one place and are vulnerable. If you get killed, so does your droid. When your not controlling them, they just act as a sentry gun

Also, since sentry guns seem to help gunners so much, it might be a good idea to bring in NPC stormtrooper helpers like in FM3 that fire much faster and follow easy orders. I mean it probably wouldnt be too hard to order them to stay in one place, follow you, or hold there fire. If you have ore than one, it would also be cool to target one of them and him do the order specifically. Also with this, I'm not sure we have the resources, but it would be cool non the less.

razorace
03-28-2007, 08:12 PM
Classes just aren't in the cards I think. Hard to impliment and kind of counter to most of the work we've done.

I still think that it's going to come down to a score adjuster for non-force users. Maybe just double their kill score if the player without absorb/offensive Force Power kills a player with absorb/offensive Force Power.

JRHockney*
03-28-2007, 09:23 PM
Hard to impliment and kind of counter to most of the work we've done.


Hard to implement, maybe. But a cakewalk compared to MB2's or FM3's classes and since it has a hybrid class that is alot more expensive, it balances things without taking too much away from the openness idea we've had going. Its something to earn. If we get more UI savy coders, I dont think this will be a problem.

Hey Mantis, do you know anything about the ui code?

Maxstate
03-29-2007, 03:06 AM
No classes, but no score adjusters either please.
If we add some (or use the ones we have) kind of buyable jedi powers that require certain levels of saber defense, attack and sense to buy, gunners will have no time to really specialise into the Jedi area to get the "good" powers.

To counter this, we will have to appoint someone to make that level 2/level 3 gun boost thing though.

UDM
03-29-2007, 03:21 AM
Hard to implement, maybe. But a cakewalk compared to MB2's or FM3's classes and since it has a hybrid class that is alot more expensive, it balances things without taking too much away from the openness idea we've had going. Its something to earn. If we get more UI savy coders, I dont think this will be a problem.

Hey Mantis, do you know anything about the ui code?

If anyone's interested in helping out with the UI, I could teach you how to do it. Quite simple really

But hocks, the classes are done through coding and not UI scripting. You'll need coding savvy uhh...coders to do it, not UI savvy coders ;)

HamstrYODA
03-29-2007, 03:27 AM
I like the idea of both remote controlled droids and NPC support.
Remote droids could work somehow like:
Level 1: Battle droid, 3 points. Single and weak droid with level 2 blaster, slight force resistance, 30 hp.
Level 2: Super battle droid, 8 points. Single droid with built-in wrist blaster (level 3 blaster) in right hand, built-in rocket launcher (2 rockets, delay between shots) in left hand, moderate force resistance, 75hp.
Level 3: Droideka, 8 points. Single destroyer droid, Twin cannons (2x level 2 blaster), deflector shield (absorbs large amount of firepower), wheel movement mode (allows quick movement, takes some time to get in and out of mode), good force resistance, 35hp (much shield though)

razorace
03-29-2007, 02:10 PM
If we add some (or use the ones we have) kind of buyable jedi powers that require certain levels of saber defense, attack and sense to buy, gunners will have no time to really specialise into the Jedi area to get the "good" powers.
It's definitely an idea. But I think that might be getting too complicated. I'm already getting questions about "Why is there only Force Seeing?".