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_x_Darth-Max_x_
10-08-2006, 03:04 PM
Well.. i was looking at the Capital ships from all Factions.. And i noticed That the StarDestroyer Really gets the end of the stick.. :vsd:

Stardestroyer - Tractor beam
Kedalba - Shield leech
Agressor - Proton blast/ Ion Blast
Mon Calamari Cruiser - Boost shields..

I will start with the ISD

The ISD has a Tractor beam that's only effictive against Smaller Ships ( no Capital) And it does no Damage , + The Rebel Corvette can just boost Engines to get out..

Then there are people who say ; ''Yeah but The ISD gets a Whole Compliment of Fighters..'' , Okay i can understand Partially what u mean.. But if u place a Corvette or 2 Right next to ure Cap ship .. the Bombers wont even Come close..

Kedalba..- Not much to say here.. Seems better then the ISD, as the Shield leech ability makes u able to Drain shields.. and Get more Firepower at the same time..

Agressor - about this thing im Worried.. The First shot Immobilizes ( No escape ) , The 2nd Shot.. Kills smaller ships Entirely , and Destroys Hardpoints at bigger ships.. Seems very deadly!

Mon Calamari Cruiser - No Shield generator as Hard Point?. A big advantage for the Mon calamari Cruiser. The Boost shield power is good for when u are getting Overwhelmed and want to make it to a Safe distance.

Of course the Empire gets the SSD.. but it will Cost a Lot of Money , And how will the Empire be able to keep the Enemy ships at bay until the SSD is ready to be used..+ Not to mention the New mon Calamari Frigates.. Which will probably rip Right through Victory Sd's :smash:


Discuss!

Artoo-Eetoo
10-08-2006, 03:22 PM
ISD - As you said the main ability of our belowed symbol of the empire are TIE's so i think they will get upgraded (Tie interceptors) ... i remember when i played my modded demo those TIE were kicking.. me like hmm so that proglem out.

Kedalba - We don't konw much only that it leaches shields so i have a small teory it won't be super strong so using it with oter coruption unit will make it succesfull to operate corvets for def Frigates for extra fire power..

Agressor - (My favorite) Ok Agressors will be slow and lightl defended from the back, it will function primary as an artilery unit and will require coperation from coruption forces like Kedalba

Mon Calamari Cruiser - Mon's hmm ... hmmm get it separated from the main force and attack them with ion cannons (Tie defenders ability or our Agressor) they have a not so stron armor so the will be eaisly destroyed when thier shields will be down.

_x_Darth-Max_x_
10-08-2006, 03:57 PM
ISD will get Tie Interceptors i guess.. Although Tie Interceptors are better, They are still Cannon Fodder for a few Corvettes...Tie defenders on the Other hand.. ( Aren't these only Garrisoned by a Few: SSD,Piet,Thrawn?)

I think , 2 Kedalba Class Capital Ships ,And 1 Agressor Class Capital Ship. Will be very effictive... While the Kedalba's Eat away at the shields, The Agressor will blow Away massive chunks :launcher:

I still think Mon Calamari should been given 1 Shield Generator * or 2 , Which is Stated in Some Mon Calamari Schematics*

I also doubt that the Agressor will be Lightly Armored, As Mentioned by one of the Devs ... the Consortium has Expensive ships.. But ooohh they pack a Big punch

Long live the Empire!

Darth Anarch
10-08-2006, 06:52 PM
A big punch, yes, but with poor armour. That's what the devs said.

Valter
10-08-2006, 08:38 PM
All the capital ships have their own advantages. None are better than the others.

Star Destroyers can trap corvettes with their tractor beams and can release TIE fighters and bombers without affecting the population cap.

Mon Cal cruisers specialize in combat with massive warships and corvettes but are completely helpless against small fighters.

I have not used the Keldabe yet so I don't know it's strengths or weaknesses.

The Aggressor is a hulking thug with a glass jaw. It can easily disable enemy capital ships with it's heavy cannon but it is rendered useless without it.

I think every capital ship has it's own strengths and weaknesses. It falls into the hands of the player to use each capital ship's strengths effectivly while trying to cover it's weaknesses.

TheMonsterOfTheIsland
10-08-2006, 10:14 PM
ISD's work just fine. Has anyone noticed them being grossly deficient in firepower? Because I have not.

Of course, if you really want ISD's to be the invincible juggernaughts they are in canon...

X. M. L.

One star destroyer varient that I made had enhanced shields, additional weapons hardpoints stacked on top of their basic ones, and lots more fighters.

Imbalanced? Sure

Bloody fun for someone who enjoys seeing a stardestroyer kick the living crap out of several enemy ships? Definitely

I really love petro for the XML thing...

Let's me throw balance right out the door when I want to...

Not to say that I never play with balanced settings; I usually do. LOL

_x_Darth-Max_x_
10-09-2006, 09:04 AM
Lol Well i dont wanna tinker with the XML Files..:)

Artoo-Eetoo
10-09-2006, 11:58 AM
Some data about the Kedable hot frrom the master text file:

TEXT_TOOLTIP_KEDALBE_BATTLESHIP The Keldabe-class, named for Mandalore's capital city, is another product of Mandal Hypernautics. It is a heavy capital ship, competing with Imperial Star Destroyers.

+Some text like use the drain shields on that rebel space station and useing them (their power) aginst it :)

_x_Darth-Max_x_
10-09-2006, 01:31 PM
That doesn't sound to good for the ISD

TheMonsterOfTheIsland
10-09-2006, 04:42 PM
Well, you can't complain if you're lazy :-)

i'm suprised that petro is as responsive to the community as it is. A snottier company would just say, "You have the xml, fix it yourself."

I remember little about programming from my class and even I can beef up a star destroyer lol!

Rust_Lord
10-10-2006, 01:25 AM
Well, you can't complain if you're lazy :-)

i'm suprised that petro is as responsive to the community as it is. A snottier company would just say, "You have the xml, fix it yourself."

I remember little about programming from my class and even I can beef up a star destroyer lol!

Champ, I for one have done no programming in my life and I know there are others who fiddle with XMLs etc quite proficiently too with equally little formal training. God bless XML's and to Petro using them.

As for the cap ships, I agree the ISDs should be the lords of space they are meant to be BUT the devs have tried to make something of a balance without the pirates/rebs needing an armada of ships just to take on one ISD. I dont think any one pirate ship should be able to match an ISD, the empire would not allow such a theat to emerge, but the pirates stuff will have some weakness themselves, we just havent played with them enough yet.

Darth Windu
10-10-2006, 09:11 AM
But then the pirates should need an armada to take down an ISD. Mind you, I'm personally not fond of the idea that a criminal organisation can militarily stand up to the Empire and Rebellion, but there you go.

I also love the XML file system which can be easily edited, and like many here I have no formal computer training. But since it is so easy to use, I can go ahead and under-power the crims. :)

jedi jim 1989
10-10-2006, 10:44 AM
id like an imp star to b able to go toe to toe with any enemy cap ship and have no trouble taking it out, but in any game you need balance. personly i feel that if a game doent have balance then its not fun for the simple fact that its to easy or to hard, for example, if star destroyers were as tough as in cannon then it wouldnt be fun playin the empire, you'd just make a few as a fleet and that would be pretty much impenetrable.

_x_Darth-Max_x_
10-10-2006, 10:59 AM
Im not asking for the Imperial stardestroyer , To be the 1# Capital ship , That is the Executor's Place :p. I just think the Imperial Star destroyer should be very slightly buffed in Terms of weaponry.. Maybe add 1 Turbolaser?

+ I like the idea ,of a Criminal organisation rising to power.. Black sun's Head was a Competitor of Darth vader to become the right hand of the Emperor , Darth vader eventually destroyed Xizor with a ISD.. And some help from rebels, and Dash rendar

HerbieZ
10-10-2006, 03:52 PM
To be honest, comparison is a very bleak way of looknig at it. This is a strategy game, and a brilliant stratagist, such as myself will emplure the tractor beam and use it to it's maximum potencial to reach my goals. It is indeed a very useful tool. You jsut need to know WHEN to use it.

_x_Darth-Max_x_
10-10-2006, 04:08 PM
Yes the tractor beam can indeed be very handy .. a Escaping Corvette for Example.. Although the Mon calamari has A : No shield generator , B: Boost shields Makes u Invulnerable and Replenishes shields right?

Rust_Lord
10-11-2006, 10:40 PM
I agree with jedi Jim. I hate having to tip toe around with an ISD. Windu, ur right an ISD should be able to take on a fleet of lesser ships and criminals getting their hands on the the best tech i disagree with but as Jim and I said, there needs to be a balance for the game. PG has give the ZC a bit of colour, made them interesting and given them cool stuff. If PG made the ZC a merely expanded pirate faction who needed to field a huge number of second rate pirate craft, old dreadnoughts etc they wouldnt have the same appeal. As much of a stickler for accuracy and canon im just going to have to do what i do when I watch a James Bond film; leave reality at home and enjoy the movie.

I think the ISD should get an extra 2 turbo lasers and 2 ions considering they have nearly twice as many weapons as an MC80. That would be a fair representation of its firepower. As for the tractor beam...its useless when it needs it most (battling an MC80) but its GREAT for holding onto the Falcon and destroying it quickly.

One last thing about the Executor; on IGN I saw one of its abilities is to scramble all its fighter squadrons at once! How awesome would that be! Id love to see every ISD get that.

lordzack
10-12-2006, 12:30 PM
Nearly twice? The MC80 has 40 Turbolasers and 40 Ion Cannons. That's not nearly twice.

Rust_Lord
10-12-2006, 07:19 PM
No the MC80 has 48 TLs and 20 Ions while the ISD 1 has 60 TL and 60 Ion. A more accurate reflection would be for the ships to have 1 weapon for every 10 they are supposed to have...with 6 Ions the ISD would be a true dealer of death and offset the shield boost ability.

lordzack
10-12-2006, 07:58 PM
Ah, sorry. I was sure it was 40 each, though. And I'm pretty sure It's like that in the RPG.

Darth Windu
10-13-2006, 02:26 AM
Rust - sure, PG need to balance the game, but that doesnt mean every side gets the same thing. In the RTS 'Axis & Allies', the Germans, British, Americans and Soviets all get Heavy Tanks (actually the Germans get two, the second of which is better than all other heavies) but the Japanese dont. Instead they get the tankette which is like the light tank, only cheaper.

Basically the possible imbalance created by Japan not having the big heavy unit is balanced by giving them cheaper small units - which is how I think the Consortium should have been protrayed.

Almorac-Shinomi
10-15-2006, 01:12 PM
Well guys you have to remember we aren't talking about two factions anymore, this is three factions. Tyber Zann needs a ship that can compete with the Rebel's Mon Calamari fleet and the Empire's fleet of ISDs, Interdictors, and Victorys.
So when you think about it the ISD isn't really getting pushed back, each faction needs a battleship of sorts(Rebs are Mon Cal, Imps are ISD, and Consortium is Kedalba.)
(This is more in reply to earlier posts in the topic.)

Boba Fett 1991
10-15-2006, 01:44 PM
Do you people want realism or a good game? Seriously, I understand what you are saying, but don't overdo it. The Black Market has many OUTLAWED weapons. That would explain the powerful weapons. I also remember seeing something that said that Consortium units in genreal, have weak armor. A perfect weakness to exploit.

Darth Anarch
10-15-2006, 07:49 PM
Yeah, I'm with Boba. Stop worrying so much about realism and accept the fact that it's necessary to make a balanced game. After all, what fun would it be to play a faction whose biggest, baddest capital ship was a modified bulk freighter?

darthcarth
10-15-2006, 09:18 PM
I agree

if htier are 2 anti fighter ships and 1 capital ship on each side the empire is a a great disadvantage. Lets do this with the empire vs the rebelsso a isd sends its fighter out they get creamed by the corleian corvette, they go into direct battle and lose because of the mon cals boost sheild ability unbalanced.

now with the ZC the isd sends out its fighter once again they get creamed they og into direct combat and the isd loses because of the agresors ion canon and proton thing.

Darth Windu
10-16-2006, 01:57 AM
But realism is very important, especially in games like this. After all, if every faction had ISD's, Mon Cal Cruisers and if Luke was a 10ft giant with lightsabres for arms, it wouldn't be a good Star Wars game now would it?

As I pointed out with the Axis & Allies example, you don't have to give evry side the same sort of unit in order for the game to be balanced. I personally would rather see the Consortium have cheaper, smaller ships rather than an ISD killer.

Perhaps rather than having a battleship, the Consortium could have had a 'ramship' that is unarmed and small, but flies straight into an enemy battleship, damaging it.

Valter
10-16-2006, 12:05 PM
balance > realism

Darth Windu, your first example is ridiculously exaggerated so I won't address it.

If the Consortium had cheaper, smaller ships they wouldn't stand a chance against either side. The philosophy of the Consortium is to use units that can deal out the punishment but can't take the punishment. Tyber is the type of character who is willing to deal out cash for quality units and weapons. Sort of the "you pay crap and you get crap, you pay gold and you get gold" kind of person. Besides, the "cheaper, smaller ship" philosophy is already used by the Empire.

A 'ramship' is no more Star Wars like than a ten foot Luke with lightsaber arms. A 'ramship' would cause balance problems anyway, like taking out a space station or a star destroyer with one attack.

wedge2211
10-16-2006, 07:21 PM
Besides, the "cheaper, smaller ship" philosophy is already used by the Empire.
Imperial. Star. Destroyer. Ahem.

Actually, I'd like to see a 'ramship' for the Consortium. They've already sort of got that, with the self-destruct ability on the Vengeance frigates. But the Zann consortium definitely seems like the kind of guys who'd take a clunky, broken-down old frieghter, load it with a transponder that would get it in past the first line of enemy fleet defense, and pack the cargo bay full of explosives. Tyber Zann would certainly appreciate getting a lot of "bang" for his buck! I bet Petrogylph will surprise us in this department...

darthfergie
10-16-2006, 08:21 PM
I ditto Darth Windu. I did actually expect the largest ship in the pirate fleet to be a hack job of a star destroyer or a tricked out bulk cruiser or some dreadnaughts. Have lots of small fast ships and several ships with very crazy weaponry. So far we're seeing bits and pieces of the of the crazy tactics, but at the same time we're seeing big ships that can go toe to toe with ISDs which is insane. ISDs should be in a land all their own in terms of might. Mon Cals are converted cruise liners, ISDs could toss them in the waste bin toe to toe. Oh well, such is XML.
I figured that the pirates would have lots of units, not zillions, more like, exotic units rather than massive hunks of metal eclipsing the sun.
Although I would love to see Pirates have the ability to capture enemy ships. That would make me very happy. Taking over an SSD and using it at reduced efficiency would be a very happy thing indeed. Can you say Warlord?

I just don't think you can continue to make up huge ships that somehow never made it into any books, but they are out there and are bigger than ISDs (when you consider how notable Booster's Errant Venture is, it doesn't make a whole bunch of sense).

darthcarth
10-17-2006, 06:30 PM
i agree balance is important valter but the thing is it isnt balanced a cheaper mon cal cruiser cna kill a more expensive isd, also ram ships arent uncan what do u do with a ship that has its weapons disabled sned it into the enemys ships or make it explode.

Darth Windu
10-18-2006, 01:13 AM
Exactly. Just like in the original C&C where Nod didn't have anything that could go head-to-head with a Medium Tank or a Mammoth Tank, yet they could still win. Also like in 'Generals' where the GLA doesn't really have any heavy armour or airpower, yet their suicide weapons (truck, suicide bomber) and very effective.

Valter
10-18-2006, 02:37 AM
Well, I'm fine with the Consortium units that Petroglyph has created. If you don't like the units or how powerful they are then just use mods or tweak the XML.

Rust_Lord
10-18-2006, 03:15 AM
>>we're seeing big ships that can go toe to toe with ISDs which is insane.

>>it isnt balanced a cheaper mon cal cruiser cna kill a more expensive isd

Cant agree more; EaW is the only star wars game that I know of where the ISD is weaker than a MC. Sure in Rebellion the MC had it over the ISD is some areas but overall the ISD was still better and the ISD II was far superior. In EaW the ISD has less firepower (fires less pulses), has less HPs and has a critical flaw being the shield generator; AND its more expensive. Who cares if the ISD costs 6000, id prefer to see it be the best capital ship available and it seems many others feel the same way. One corvette renders the ISDs fighters useless; an ISD and a tartan against an MC and a corvette will always lose. Speaking of corvettes, they are not very balanced either; the corvette has 8 lasers compared to the tartans 4 and costs only 100 extra; even if the tartan is a little tougher, it will still only last 10 seconds against a cap ship rather than a corvettes 8 seconds (not being literal but you know what i mean).

The ram ships could work and they wouldnt be overpowering either; an ISD for instance would be able to tractor beam one before it got pounded by another. A Mon Cal could absorb one detonation with a timely use of its shield boost ability but would be vulnerable to another attack when this ability was over. I could see how it would work nicely. It depends on how powerful the blast was made...and the downside could be hypering in it too close to the enemy where it would be destroyed quickly or escorting it to the enemy and risk a premature detonation from enemy fire that frags your own ships. It could be great fun.

I guess cloaking is effectively what I would have liked to have seen the ZC ships get and that is like a 'civilian mode' where their ships could cruise around and not appear as enemy craft until they rolled out their guns like merchant raiders in WW2. The ZC ships could break off and if they got out of visual range they could activate civilian mode again. But cloaking basically does this so...

And Windu is right...the GLA are totally unique compared to the other factions in Generals and they are very balanced.

Darth Ablett
10-18-2006, 04:58 AM
>>we're seeing big ships that can go toe to toe with ISDs which is insane.

>>it isnt balanced a cheaper mon cal cruiser cna kill a more expensive isd

Cant agree more; EaW is the only star wars game that I know of where the ISD is weaker than a MC. Sure in Rebellion the MC had it over the ISD is some areas but overall the ISD was still better and the ISD II was far superior. In EaW the ISD has less firepower (fires less pulses), has less HPs and has a critical flaw being the shield generator; AND its more expensive. Who cares if the ISD costs 6000, id prefer to see it be the best capital ship available and it seems many others feel the same way. One corvette renders the ISDs fighters useless; an ISD and a tartan against an MC and a corvette will always lose. Speaking of corvettes, they are not very balanced either; the corvette has 8 lasers compared to the tartans 4 and costs only 100 extra; even if the tartan is a little tougher, it will still only last 10 seconds against a cap ship rather than a corvettes 8 seconds (not being literal but you know what i mean).


I was going to post something in this thread, but this pretty much sums it up. Great post, btw.

Imperial Star Destroyers should be better. I don't care about XML, I care about out of the box balance. For gameplay reasons, I'm fine with the Mon Cals having better shielding, and even the advantage of no specific hardpoint. The ISD should however, completely eclipse the Mon Cal in arnament and hull armour. Warship vs converted liner, you do the maths. In ship-to-ship combat, it should be no contest 1-on-1.

As for the Consortium, having powerful large ships is ok, but I think these should be grossly deficient in certain areas, or in limited supply. A full fleet of ISD analogues owned by 1 guy? I know gameplay > realism (fantasy story), but that's stretching it.

Also, I think corvettes in general are too good, but that's another story. :smash:

wedge2211
10-18-2006, 07:56 PM
Exactly. Just like in the original C&C where Nod didn't have anything that could go head-to-head with a Medium Tank or a Mammoth Tank, yet they could still win. Also like in 'Generals' where the GLA doesn't really have any heavy armour or airpower, yet their suicide weapons (truck, suicide bomber) and very effective.
The same goes for StarCraft, which had the classic combination of "really expensive, powerful unit faction," "really cheap, weak unit faction," and "middle-of-the-road faction." And, in fact, one of the most effective units in the game were the Zerg Scourge, diabolically cheap anti-air suicide units. Exactly the sort of ends-justify-the-means, sneak-attack sort of thing I'd expect from a guy like Tyber Zann.

Actually, a neat ability for the Consortium might be to designate one of their ships per battle as a bomb carrier, and have that ship launch a suicide attack against an enemy capital ship. Then there would be an element of surprise--you don't know whether it's that squad of blastboats, that troop transport, or that Vengeance frigate that's suddenly going to ram your capital ships.

Rust_Lord
10-19-2006, 03:28 AM
>>The ISD should however, completely eclipse the Mon Cal in arnament and hull armour.

Funny you should say that because, I think its in the game contants folder, but the ISD does have better armour than the MC; so this makes the disparity between the two ships even more alarming. By way or armour, I mean the MC will take full damage from a ISD hit whereas an ISD takes 75% damage (its multiplier is .75).

I cant believe i forgot about Star Craft too...good call...damn that was a great game. The format was as you said Wedge but it had balance issues as well...I remember a 4v4 between 4 humans and 4 hard computers and when the computer had a couple of protoss players it would combine forces and march about 2 dozen zealots to one persons base! We all used to pray we werent the closest to them...which reminds me, prolly a bit off topic but anyone noticed the Bothan Frenzy space map AI if you play against rebels. I had a 2v2 with all computers and they spammed over a dozen corvettes and gunships. Even using VSDs and ISDs they were just too strong, since they would hunt in packs of at least 6. Really nasty. Depended on how much of a jump they got with resources early though...

Boba Fett 1991
10-20-2006, 10:23 PM
I guess some people are just stubborn at accepting certain things. I'm not going to bother.

darthcarth
10-21-2006, 12:59 AM
Umm then basicly your post was spam, i use mods most of the time to make up for this but realy eaw should have more canonness to it i cant even stand one skimish because of the lack of balance.

Darth Windu
10-21-2006, 04:56 AM
I guess some people are just stubborn at accepting certain things. I'm not going to bother.
As DarthCarth pointed out, this is spam. Please do not do it again.

Actually I just had a new idea as well. How about instead of having a 'ramship' or something like that, the Consortium can 'upgrade' any of their ships, packing them full of explosives? So basically you've got a Consortium frigate that fights like any other ship. You then pay a certain amount (a percentage of original ship cost) to remove its weapons and pack it with explosives. Then, go into a battle and tell it to attack an enemy ship. Instead of firing, it moves as close as possible and detonates itself.

This removes the need for an obvious suicide-ship, gives the Consortium some more devious play options, and removes the need to have a big battleship which is unrealistic.

Thoughts?

ImpElite
10-21-2006, 10:25 AM
Sounds cool to me, it would just get tiring to have to switch your weapons at the end of every battle if you wanted explosives on him now or weapons on him, 'Course I COULD just make half the ones I make explosive and the other half have weapons..... Not a bad idea at all DarthWindu! :)

wedge2211
10-21-2006, 10:29 AM
That was kind of what I was trying to say. The Consortium should be able to pick a ship at will and set it to ram/explode near enemy targets.

Valter
10-21-2006, 03:54 PM
As DarthCarth pointed out, this is spam. Please do not do it again.

Actually I just had a new idea as well. How about instead of having a 'ramship' or something like that, the Consortium can 'upgrade' any of their ships, packing them full of explosives? So basically you've got a Consortium frigate that fights like any other ship. You then pay a certain amount (a percentage of original ship cost) to remove its weapons and pack it with explosives. Then, go into a battle and tell it to attack an enemy ship. Instead of firing, it moves as close as possible and detonates itself.

This removes the need for an obvious suicide-ship, gives the Consortium some more devious play options, and removes the need to have a big battleship which is unrealistic.

Thoughts?


An 'explosive ship' is actually a pretty good idea, much better than the 'ramship'. In a way, the Vegeance Frigates and the Aggressors already have this ability though.

darthcarth
10-21-2006, 04:40 PM
Yes but if their was a ship just dedicated to explosions it owuld be more powerful.

wedge2211
10-21-2006, 05:28 PM
Having the ability to disguise the kamikaze ship as any other vessel would give the Consortium a new level of sneakiness, though. And why not ram and explode at the same time? (Anybody see what happened to the Battlestar Pegasus last night? HO-LY crap!)

Here's an idea for implementation: What about a specialized transport ship designed to load other vessels with explosives? To the other factions, this ship would look just like a normal troop transport--totally innocuous and useless in a battle. It would have the special ability, however, of pulling up next to a non-hero Consortium vessel, docking, and loading it up with high-yeild explosives while the original ship's crew transfers to the transport for a quick getaway. The loaded ship now has one and only one purpose: to drive straight at an enemy formation and explode. All other attacks and abilities of that ship would be nullified.

This ability, I think, has the perfect blend of advantages and disadvantages. The Consortium could sneak any vessel it wants into an enemy formation and cause massive disruption and damage, perhaps elimenating key targets in the process, and the enemy would not be able to predict when, where, or how this would happen. On the other hand, the Consortium not only has to sacrifice a combat vessel to do this, but they have to load it up and send it on its one-way trip, giving the enemy a chance to intercept the bombship before it's fully loaded or take it down on its drive into their combat line.

Darth Windu
10-21-2006, 11:44 PM
As Wedge noted, being able to make any ship into a suicide ship makes the Consortium even more sneaky, and keeps the enemy guessing.

However I would look more at the conversion to a suicide ship as being on a strategic level rather than the tactical level. After all, the modifications would be significant.

Oh yeah Wedge - could you please not mention Battlestar Galactica? Over here in Australia we've only just started Season 2, so I'd rather not know whats going to happen next, if thats cool. Thanks.

darthcarth
10-21-2006, 11:44 PM
I agree as long as it has limited manuvarability (so it would be instant death to naything some ships would have enough time to get out of the way)

TearsOfIsha
11-13-2006, 08:59 AM
I was going to post something in this thread, but this pretty much sums it up. Great post, btw.

Imperial Star Destroyers should be better. I don't care about XML, I care about out of the box balance. For gameplay reasons, I'm fine with the Mon Cals having better shielding, and even the advantage of no specific hardpoint. The ISD should however, completely eclipse the Mon Cal in arnament and hull armour. Warship vs converted liner, you do the maths. In ship-to-ship combat, it should be no contest 1-on-1.


Actually, it's not that simple. The design of the Mon Cal cruiser was vastly superior to the ISD - mainly due to the fact that the Mon Cals are simply better designers and ship-builders than humans when it comes to cap ships. The ISD *never* 'completely eclipsed' the mon cal - even the imperials admitted to that. In actual fact, the mon cal was substantially tougher than the ISD due to it's design (redundant shields, compartments etc), and they were much more manueverable - partially due to their smaller size and better engines, but also due to the fact that Mon Calamari are just plain better cap ship pilots). The only thing which the ISD had over the mon cal ships was sheer firepower - it had more guns. Hence, I think the ISD in EaW should get more guns.

But at the end of the day, 'Warship vs converted liner' is inaccurate. 'Warship of inferior design vs converted liner of vastly superior design' is much more accurate.


As for the Consortium, having powerful large ships is ok, but I think these should be grossly deficient in certain areas, or in limited supply. A full fleet of ISD analogues owned by 1 guy? I know gameplay > realism (fantasy story), but that's stretching it.


Yeah, I've hd enough of seeing two Mon Cals or, as I've just seen Thrawn and a vanilla ISD 0wned by those WTFPWNING-class battleships or whatever they're called...

Rust_Lord
11-13-2006, 06:09 PM
@ TearsofIsha's post: DooD I strongly disagree. A converted liner, even a great one will be inferior to a dedicated warship. The design of a Mon Cal was clearly inferior to the ISD as a warship not just because the Empire has unrestricted access to technology, whereas the Rebellion had to make their own/steal it/copy designs since the very best the Empire had was illegal in any one else hands. The design of the ISD was superior because of its shape. The wedge shape of the ISD meant that the forward facing weapons and weapons on its flanks had wide fire arcs and could focus more of its weapons forward. While sacrificing firepower to its rear they had great firepower in every other direction. The Mon Cal however had its weapons evenly distributed over its flanks and had a very narrow frontal firearc. Its widest arc is its flanks which meant it would have to use broadsides and expose its entire length to the enemy, whereas the ISD, unless outnumbered could always keep its most dangerous side pointed at the enemy.

In EVERY publication or game (except EaW) the ISD has always had better armour with the same shielding as an MC and with greater firepower. In a LucasArts guide to ships, written from an Imperial perspective it stated a fight between the two would result in an ISD victory but two Mon Cals would defeat an ISD.

Mon Cals were more maneuverable, no argument there, and had many redundant systems but it needed them to stay in the fight.

The Mon Cals themselves werent not much better if it all when it came to combat. They still only operated in 2 dimensions like battles on water, as evidenced by the design of their ships. It was written somewhere that if any species had the ability to fight three dimensionally as you can do in space then they would have an advantage.

darthcarth
11-13-2006, 07:07 PM
I agree, even in home world 2 a isd while it would tkae some hull damge because of weak sheilds would kill a mon cal cruiser through sheer fire power.

Naso
11-13-2006, 07:14 PM
The ISD has always been very very powerful going back to the days of X-Wing. The ISD's weakness was never weak shields, it was the generators being able to be destroyed, which was why they had so many fighters. In a cap-ship match they should win hands-down, and as it is, their one hardpoint is far too easy to get with bombers and anything else with mass-drivers and torpedoes. It at least needs two hardpoints.

Darth Ablett
11-14-2006, 04:18 AM
The idea of the Imperial-II seems to be a pretty good solution IMO if they leave the ISD in its emasculated state. I think quite a few people want to play this game and at some stage arrive with a few Star Destroyers that give a serious "Oh crap" moment to everyone else playing. EaW nails this 'Star Wars' feel quite often IMO, but I think either ISDs should pack more of a punch, or ISD-IIs should be implemented.

@TearsofIsha, that design point is fine, and I'm 100% cool with that. It's a good point. Give the Mon Cals stronger shields, and maybe speed. That's their speciality, and works for good balance.

However, I reckon the ISD should be the most powerful ship in the game in terms of weapons and hull strength, it is the flagship craft of a hugely powerful regime and a damn powerful one at that. This beast has serious flaws, but it should tear a pretty big hole in most things. Also, being a dedicated warship I would imagine it would be pretty well armoured, more so than a civilian ship (converted or not, well designed or not)

TearsOfIsha
11-14-2006, 06:25 AM
@ TearsofIsha's post: DooD I strongly disagree. A converted liner, even a great one will be inferior to a dedicated warship. The design of a Mon Cal was clearly inferior to the ISD as a warship not just because the Empire has unrestricted access to technology, whereas the Rebellion had to make their own/steal it/copy designs since the very best the Empire had was illegal in any one else hands. The design of the ISD was superior because of its shape. The wedge shape of the ISD meant that the forward facing weapons and weapons on its flanks had wide fire arcs and could focus more of its weapons forward. While sacrificing firepower to its rear they had great firepower in every other direction. The Mon Cal however had its weapons evenly distributed over its flanks and had a very narrow frontal firearc. Its widest arc is its flanks which meant it would have to use broadsides and expose its entire length to the enemy, whereas the ISD, unless outnumbered could always keep its most dangerous side pointed at the enemy.


There's advantages to the wedge shaped design, no doubt there, but the overall design of the ISD is deeply flawed, and there's a fairly simple reason why - I'll give you a clue, read the Fall of Reach Halo prequel novel, when the Elite is thinking about human design of ships. Or, better, watch ROTJ and ask yourself why it is possible for a 10-meter long fighter can take down an 8000 meter long warship. Why? They've stuck the most important part of the ship into a big bullseye turret. Yeah, it's got the shields and whatever, but it's still a terrible design move that was blatantly done due to the Empire's obsession with psychological warfare. Bear in mind you are talking from an Imperial perspective, who always assumed they knew better than other races. The imperials may have been advanced but they designed for brute force and often left massive weaknesses in design due to arrogance - i.e, like the convenient torpedo-shaped heat vents of the Death Star 1.

Home One had this flaw to a lesser degree, but could afford it due to their shielding, and other cruisers didn't have this flaw at all.


In EVERY publication or game (except EaW) the ISD has always had better armour with the same shielding as an MC and with greater firepower. In a LucasArts guide to ships, written from an Imperial perspective it stated a fight between the two would result in an ISD victory but two Mon Cals would defeat an ISD.


Yes, imperial perspective. Imperial perspective also would state that Death Stars would eliminate any sort of rebellion through their mere presence. Imperial perspective would have stated that using a half finished death star would have been a sure-fire way of destroying rebellions and ensuring Imperial victory. Imperial perspective stated that nonhumans like Thrawn were no good for serious actions and best shifted off into the Unknown Regions, while leaving the safety of the Emperor in the hands of 'better' human officers like Piett.

Imperial perspective is very rarely right, and has more to do with ego than anything else. ;)

In any case, things like the Guides to Vehicles and the Star Wars technical manual mention that the combination of redundan systems and superior pilots meant that the extra size of the ISD counted for very little.


Mon Cals were more maneuverable, no argument there, and had many redundant systems but it needed them to stay in the fight.

The Mon Cals themselves werent not much better if it all when it came to combat. They still only operated in 2 dimensions like battles on water, as evidenced by the design of their ships. It was written somewhere that if any species had the ability to fight three dimensionally as you can do in space then they would have an advantage.

It specifically states in the Star Wars technical manual that the fact that only Mon Cals could pilot their cruisers was a blessing in disguise for the Rebellion, since they proved to have a "great, innate talent for starship piloting and could get amazing speed and grace out of vessels humans would have considered to be unwiedly".

Plus the fact that they came from a waterworld. When you're underwater, you *have* to think in 3 dimensions.

As for the business about ISD-IIs... yeah, that might work. The timeline would fit, more or less.

Naso
11-14-2006, 08:19 AM
Yes the bridge is a target, but so's Home One's. The game mechanics here really de-emphasized shields to great extent. It's good to take out hardpoints and I really like it, there's just a greater proliferation of weapons that bypass shields than really makes sense in the game. If you have equal relatively equal shielding, better firing-arc, and more firepower, as well as a significant fighter-screen to protect you from the shield generator attack, it really should come out way ahead. Also, if the destruction of the executor weren't more of a freak accident, how long would it have been before the rebels just had dedicated rslaved ramming-awings?

wedge2211
11-14-2006, 10:23 AM
Rust_Lord's point about dedicated warships versus converted liners is an excellent one. ImpStar's should totally blow Mon Cal's out of space in one-on-one matches just based on that fact.

At that close range we won't last long against those Star Destroyers!

TearsOfIsha
11-14-2006, 11:08 AM
Rust_Lord's point about dedicated warships versus converted liners is an excellent one. ImpStar's should totally blow Mon Cal's out of space in one-on-one matches just based on that fact.

Bad quote. Ackbar was outnumbered at least 10-1 when he said that.

And without wanting to take things to far, simply being a warship doesn't make something automatically better. If you put a 17th century warship up against a cruise liner with a tomahawk battery, which do you think will win? I realise there's a bit of exaggeration here, but the tech behind the Mon Cal is further along than the ISD. That's why the republic started using MC90s after the war.....

Naso
11-14-2006, 03:09 PM
Yeah, but after the war they would have been manufactured as dedicated warships. Superior engineering and backup systems make things work a bit longer when there are holes in the hull, but do not negate the actual holes.

Rust_Lord
11-14-2006, 07:05 PM
Yeah, but after the war they would have been manufactured as dedicated warships. Superior engineering and backup systems make things work a bit longer when there are holes in the hull, but do not negate the actual holes.

Yes using the latest 'liberated' imperial tech! :P The fact the New Republic continued to use 2 captured ISDs tells me they werent that crap to simply melt down and make hydro-spanners out of.

Im not saying that the mon cal is a bad ship. Its a testiment to the skill of the mon cals that they could take a ship designed for cruising/space exploration and beauty, and turn it into something capable of going up against the pinnacle of galactic military technology.

Any capital ships bridge, unless embedded deep with the hull, which no SW ship to my knowledge is designed in such a way, is vulnerable. A mon cal is equally vulnerable to a gutsy TIE Bomber pilot. Naso was DEAD right about how shields are downplayed; I believe not just in this game but other games as well (in the simulator series the shields recharge at a ridiculously slow rate if at all!) If the shields on the cap ships reflected the strength they had in the movies they would take half an hour to give out; thats about how long the space battle of endor went for with caps ships. Once the shields are down these ships take serious damage so shields were VERY important; and another point; from all the info about SW tech ive read each ship has two types of shielding, particle and ray, which stop energy and physical impacts; which is why I was surprised playing EaW for the first time and seeing torps go straight through shields.

As for Imperial doctrine; the Death Stars never really got the chance to prove they could subjugate resistance by their mere presence because the rebs blew them up straight away! If the first death star had of survived and it arrived on another planets doorstep, after the Alderaan demonstration, im sure the populace would be singing the praises of Palpatine even if they hated him. The Imps were able to achieve this to a lesser extent because of their 25000 or so ISDs. Power Projection. Folks in the US should know what I mean, thats basically what your carrier fleet does. The half finished death star - if the rebs didnt close in with the Imperial fleet they would have been picked off one by one. The fact that they DIDNT take out the rebel flagship first go like I would have shows their arrogance and that they thought the rebel attack was a non event; and Thrawn; well its lucky he was in the outer rim and not working directly under Vader because the man had a temper and all it would take was for Thrawn to screw up a couple of times, or once in a big way and he would have been dead too. Working for Vader was a very dangerous assignment and not worth the rapid promotion prospects me thinks.

One last thing; I know thanks to X-wing and the scene in ROTJ everyone thinks the shield generators are atop of the tower however these were originally stated to be sensors, which makes more sense. It would be a retarted design flaw to have such important systems so vulnerable, although If these were indeed shield generators the designers may have thought the ISDs shields would be enough to protect it long enough for the ship to deal with its attacker(s). I have seen diagrams and blueprints stating these are different things but the only way we will get a definative answer, if you dont believe what someone from ILM said who probably talked to Lucas about it, is to ask Lucas himself. Check out this link and pay particular attention to the Cinefex Proof section. http://www.theforce.net/swtc/towers.html
The destruction of the globe infers the shields have been taken out but it may also just represent the massed attack on the Executor by the Rebels. What else could they blow up or off the Executor to show it was getting hammered??

Naso
11-14-2006, 08:48 PM
Perhaps about the towers. As a kid though I got all the little Lucas Arts tech dealies that emphasized the role of the fighters in protecting the towers. It doesn't make sense, but it was sort of fun, and would have been balanced if the cap-ships in the x-wing games hadn't been so completely underpowered against fighters, (and too small). The whole xwing series did go back and forth on whether you could destroy parts of ships before their shields were down. Didn't happen in XvT I believe. That the executor was big enough to need multiple shields so that you could concentreate on the bridge-shield makes sense to me though. Basically, I just really want the ISD to be powerful, and it wasn't until the new republic that they could make ground-up dedicated warships. Home One was supposed to also be exceptional in shielding if I recall, and larger than other mon cal's to be a carrier sort, rather than a direct battleship.

darthcarth
11-14-2006, 08:58 PM
The isd should be made but first the isd should be made the second most powerful capital( the reason for making the isd 2 was to counter the war ship mon cal designs[none were present at the battle fo endor]).

Also even with caon support they need to be better for the sake of balance sure i could wait for tech elvel 5 get the executer but that puts a reliance on that that ship which no faction should have.

Rust_Lord
11-15-2006, 07:41 PM
Yes the Imps got a rude shock at the fighting power of Mon Cal and its squadrons, since lets not forget how important star fighters were to rebel tactics. Even if they were not as powerful as in the simulator games fighters still did most of the fighting. Mon Cals would have always had other ships in support too, not simply floating around on their own, and to lesser extent ISDs, so an ISD and a MC in a straight fight would not have been common. With its supporting ships and starfighter dominance one Mon Cal would be a threat to an ISD. I find the executor still fairly weak. Its shields are not very strong and its hardpoints are spaced far enough that you can deal with them before the hulk lumbers close enough to bring multiple weapons to bear.

Ill say one thing that sprung to mind about the rebs using the Mon Cal as a basis for the MC-90 etc....given the psychological factor as spoken about, even if the ISD was vastly superior, would it have looked good for the New Republic if they started cruising around in one of the Emperor's greatest terror weapons, a vessel symbolic of the Empire known for decimating worlds? Hardly. Thats some bad PR.

wedge2211
11-15-2006, 09:48 PM
Nonetheless, they did. The New Republic armed forces made use of a large number of captured or abandoned Imperial Star Destroyers (hey, it's cheaper than building new ships), including the Super Star Destroyer Lusankya. They even named a one after Mon Mothma. And, in fact, they used the orbital bombardment capabilities of the ex-Imperial ships on the Yuuzhan Vong.

Towers: The problem with this old argument is that you can go back to where some ILM guy scribbled "radar dome" on his notes, or you can go through several games and books where the domes are referred to as shield generators. Or you can watch the movie where we see a dome blow up and then immediately cut to an officer yelling, "Sir! We've lost the bridge deflector shield!" It's not really a big deal...but most people have been thinking of them as shield generators for long enough to make that the prevailing wisdom. That "technical commentaries" guy has got way too much time on his hands and he says funny things sometimes. Now as far as Empire at War goes, giving the ISD a second shield generator hardpoint would make it a lot tougher. Maybe the turbolasers should fire more shots per volley, too.

Mon Calamari cruisers should be weaker than Imperial Star Destroyers, but should be faster and more maneuverable. The fact that ISDs were built as dedicated warships does mean they will be superior to a starliner at approximately the same technology level. The ISD will have all the necessary support structure for military hardware: weapons, power systems for weapons, armor, a hull designed to take a pounding, etc. The thing about military ships versus cruise ships is that one is designed with battle in mind first, and people in mind second (ever see how cramped the crew quarters are on a submarine?). Cruise liners are the other way around. The Mon Calamari may have been able to adapt their venerable starfleet, but those ships will not be able to go toe to toe with Star Destroyers.

TearsOfIsha
11-16-2006, 11:50 AM
Mon Calamari cruisers should be weaker than Imperial Star Destroyers, but should be faster and more maneuverable. The fact that ISDs were built as dedicated warships does mean they will be superior to a starliner at approximately the same technology level. The ISD will have all the necessary support structure for military hardware: weapons, power systems for weapons, armor, a hull designed to take a pounding, etc. The thing about military ships versus cruise ships is that one is designed with battle in mind first, and people in mind second (ever see how cramped the crew quarters are on a submarine?). Cruise liners are the other way around. The Mon Calamari may have been able to adapt their venerable starfleet, but those ships will not be able to go toe to toe with Star Destroyers.

I'm afraid I misunderstood your argument. When you said 'weaker' I assumed you meant inferior, not physically less resilient. I wouldn't mind at all if the Mon Cals got better speed and maneuverability while the ISD got bigger firepower and armour, that makes sense. Just so long as those changes were balanced (i.e. lets not have Vengence-style upgrades like several million hitpoints or uber cloaking etc etc etc.... :p)

wedge2211
11-16-2006, 01:35 PM
Well, less physically resilient and less well armed, yeah.

Admiral_Thrawn
02-06-2009, 01:24 PM
I see your points, very much so, but can one simply think of alternatives to "tweaking" the files? Take it as a challenge. Why not deny the enemy valuable planets, without them they can't even produce capital ships! Each faction has a way to gain them with ease, I dont see the issue. Im a huge, huge Empire fan but the point remains; Petro didn't make them the badboys they deserve to be, so lets work round it eh? Certain planets offer certain abilities, certain ships offer certain strengths, mix, match and total the competition.

If this still doesn't appeal to you then just modify the XML files or play a Mod. Though personally I much prefer the second option. Let the pro's handle the technicalities. . . .

Now, as for a personal point of view, I think Star Destroyers need to be tweaked. Maybe make them more direct? Add some firepower, give them some more HP and shield power, but reduce their speed. You gotta give them a flaw and with Star Destroyers; speed fits.

The Consortium however need no major changes. Weak armor and defenses, but huge and destructive firepower. Think of the Aggressor as a Broadside Cruiser, pumping out missiles. But instead of a spread effect its much more . . . direct. The Mon Calamari Cruisers are also a pain, their huge shield totals and abilities overly worked. But missiles penetrate shields, so simply put a Star Destroyer against it and sneak a few broadsides into bombardment position. Failing that, Tie Defenders work wonders against them, diverting fire and firing ion.

I think Star Destroyers should be aimed at Capital Ships, the top dog, but have a vulnerability to smaller vessels, say a fighter and bomber squadron?

These are but a few ideas and alternatives that I can contribute. Rather than rush to the XML or Modding section, try to adapt and change your plans.

LordJhredmo
03-05-2009, 10:22 PM
Woah, Thrawn! Teach me the ways of Necromancy, please.
Look at the date of the post before yours... Three years, Admiral. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a reply on an ancient topic.

mandalore the great
04-03-2009, 04:45 PM
i too would like that but what if a regular capital ship were to have no shields but complete rapid fire batteries to take out great numbers of enimies