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mattwild
10-27-2006, 07:33 PM
Don't know if anyone else has encountered these yet.

On the Origins of Corruption map playing as the Empire, I found it was impossible to gain a foothold on any more than one planet because the Rebels were too aggressive. You can't defend more than one planet with the resources you're given at the start.

I've also noticed that the Zann Consortium is generally a bit more powerful than the other two factions.

Post yer thoughts.

FunSolo
10-27-2006, 07:38 PM
i second that.
well but im a bit noobish at rts games at all, so i dunno if this is my fault. but i played as the empire as well in gc and some skirmish games, and it seems like an overhauled or advanved AI, since i cant play a game on medium or hard without finding myself lost like the other factions are cheating their way up. o_O

mattwild
10-27-2006, 08:47 PM
Just played on Origins of Corruption as the Rebels and 2 minutes in I'm attacked by a force of 10 Acclamators 5 Tartans and 2 Broadsides. I still managed to repel them with a couple of Nebulons and a Marauder, but it appears that the AI has been severely overdone on that map in both ways. This was on medium.

Can we tone it down in the patch please? I could easily beat a hard enemy in vanilla EaW but this is ridiculous.

PS. An Endor scenario would be nice too :)

ImpElite
10-27-2006, 09:28 PM
how hard IS the AI? (don't have FOC yet) it can't be much harder than the vanilla EAW was.

walpurgisng
10-28-2006, 12:09 AM
Or maybe as with games like Ninja Gaiden the challenge is what makes them fun. Instead of "them" turning down the AI to retard level, maybe we should turn the game down to easy and work our ways up.

I will say one thing, I was hoping to play the orginial EAW campaign as rebels or empire with the new foc cing FOC graphics and fixes but I guess not. Its nice to see that the planets are actually living now instead of cookie cutter.

Executor1608
10-28-2006, 12:46 AM
easy on here is really easy I've tried. I've been playing origins of corruption also and playing easy and medium levels and I don't see any balance issues except me hitting them where it hurts ;)

darthcarth
10-28-2006, 12:59 AM
Alright let me list some balance issues corupt side nuff said fighters way to powerful promotes early base rushing, bomber like always are spamed and need to be toned down.

The ai isnt any better it is just plain stupid on occcasions it sends what ever it has as u immediatly, wether or not it has a chance of winning also it seems to cheat a lot.

Darth Khasei
10-28-2006, 01:05 AM
Frankly, I have not found the game to be unbalanced at all. Each side needs to play to its strengths and to the weakness of the other sides. More seat time and strategy adjustments are needed me thinks :)

mattwild
10-28-2006, 06:18 AM
It's true, most of it is balanced, but there were just a few issues. I still maintain however that the Zann Consortium is slightly overpowered (particularly the space stations above L4), but that's probably because I played too much vanilla EaW. I have pulled off some quite surprising victories though., like 2 Neb Bs versus 10 Acclamators.

Glad to see that artillery has been toned WAY down though. Nice one Petro :-)

EDIT: This is starting to get ridiculous. I attack a Consortium space station L3 with 2 ISDs, 3 VSDs and numerous support ships and I get caned. PLEASE sort this out.

EmperorJello
10-28-2006, 05:39 PM
I don't know, I've found the Empire to be gratifyingly powerful--much more than it was in the original game. Bombers are still far too powerful, especially Skiprays (I hate those things) but it seems to have better space balance than the original.

darthcarth
10-28-2006, 05:50 PM
ALso i have 1 major problem wit hbalance fighter spaming they are to powerful the enemy send over 5 fighters and that alohnee is enough to take down a level 2 space stations sheilds, that is unbalanced.

mattwild
10-28-2006, 06:13 PM
Skiprays are unbelievably powerful. They are the Consortium equivalent of Defenders or B-wings, ie. a multi-purpose fighterbomber. I got the Executor stuck behind some asteroids over Nal Hutta and the spawns from a L2 station almost killed it, and would have done if it weren't for my constant fighter spamming from the Executor itself. Maybe we should put together a list of the units that are unbalanced?

Skipray Blastboat
Consortium Space Stations (particularly L3>)

Need more piracy missions too, those are very fun and give good bonuses, there just aren't many of them about.

Has anyone found the orbital bombardment to be a bit, well, crap for the Rebels? Just some ion blasts? What happened to turbolasers?

Darth Khasei
10-28-2006, 07:48 PM
Hmm, a balanced strategy is key. Every side has gunship who's job it is to engage the fight/bombers and protect the heavies` hardpoints.

FOC forces new strategy or you face that knife in a gun fight feeling. Think anew :)

mattwild
10-28-2006, 08:10 PM
Yeah I know, but gunships are now so weak that they don't do much anyway.

FunSolo
10-28-2006, 08:24 PM
take 2 or 3 gunships for one of the bigger ships and ur pretty safe (unless ur playing against the empire and they come up with numours SD's and ISD's, then ur bummed cause of the bunch of squadrons, but thats how it should be i guess)

mattwild
10-29-2006, 07:39 AM
ARGH! Please, please tone down the Consortium. I took Myrkr from the Rebels and 10 seconds later a huge fleet of Interceptor IV frigates blows me out the system before I've got a chance to build a space station. It's ridiculous and doesn't exactly encourage me to play Galactic Conquest.

Rust_Lord
10-29-2006, 09:56 PM
Yes while i expected the ZC to be pretty tough in the campaign and I like the more aggressive imperial AI, but ive had decent Imp fleets (30-40 cap including 2-4 ISDs) attack my lone ZC space stations (lvl 4/lvl 5) and get either destroyed or beaten off. I doubt either the rebs or imps could do the same. One thing which pizzed me off royally and could possibly be a bug is that I have had some of my space stations lose a tech level. I thought this may have been because the station was damaged in an attack and we are now forced to re-upgrade to repair but after a check of my other stations later on another which hadnt been attacked had lost a tech level.

jedi7000nathan
10-29-2006, 10:50 PM
did any of you guys notice the there aren't any random events

FunSolo
10-30-2006, 02:16 AM
what random events anyway? what should or could happen?

Darth Anarch
10-30-2006, 08:41 AM
The sort of things you'd get in the original. "The Empire has left a planet undefended"... "Take this planet and be rewarded with X units"... that sort of thing.

FunSolo
10-30-2006, 09:12 AM
oh that stuff.
well. cant say im missing it, but.. maybe a lil bit, since i couldnt even remember.. but i knew somthing was missing.
but to the balance thing. its not the ZC which is overpowered, the whole AI got tweaked.
shall i tell u how big the fleets of the rebels are when they start attacking me? on medium difficulty, with home one, bout 10 neb b's and mark 2, and round bout 30-40 fighter squads mixed of all of them, plus like 3-5 of these nasty mc30.. no chance to defend myself, even with the executor and a few ISDs and numoruous tie squads of all kinds. the bombers and mc30s blowin my capitol ships into pieces before i ended the words "holy ****" lol... :/ .... lol

Darth Khasei
10-30-2006, 03:15 PM
The AI is clearly better than before and will pounce on any opening you leave it. I like it!

mattwild
10-30-2006, 03:29 PM
I do like the new AI granted, but I can't seem to play 3 way skirmish games with it because it just teams up on me and destroys me before I've started.

Rust_Lord
10-31-2006, 09:31 PM
Im going to hold back from a dark side rage about balance but after finishing the campaign and finally finding some time to play some skirmish games, I can safely say that, AI improvements aside, the ZC is unbalanced in space. I didnt have time to test them on the ground yet so again I will reserve judgement/criticism. I agree with Executor1608 in that easy level is far too easy. On the new Geonosis map (standard test for 1v1) after multiple games on medium, testing different strategies etc, its my humble opinion that the ZC craft are FAR superior than their comparable Imperial craft. I havent had a chance to test vs Rebs yet. The ZC space stations are far more resilient than the Imperials (posibbly due to their centralised design and arrayment of hardpoints); Interceptor 4s are superior to Acclamators (primarily due to their speed maneuverability and great special ability), Vengeance frigates are very tough and wipe the floor with VSDs. One of the main imbalances is the ZC corvettes point defence lasers which nullify missile weaponry. While they are not very tough themselves this ability, especially when attacking in cooperation with Int 4s and Vengeance ships (which both have weapons or special attacks that bypass shields and cause considerable damage) is overly powerful. I didnt even get to fight against the ZC capital ships but having used them in the campaign I know how they would compare. If I have to pull stats from the game I will but Ive played this game long enough to see when something is not balanced without needing to view the stats. In one mission on the Geonosis map I captured ALL mines and destroyed the ZC supply depot within the first five minutes, effectively giving them no income, yet they were still able to put up a huge fight. I expect quite a few modest changes for the ZC in the next patch.

darthcarth
10-31-2006, 09:33 PM
Yes the ai is some waht better but still to simple they inigrated a ai that will attack you if it has more forces then you do if it doesnt it cheats until it gets enoug hships to beat you.

Rust_Lord
10-31-2006, 09:56 PM
Cheat you say? Nah! :P Yes I agree; ive no idea how they could afford the ships they bought in that battle when i cut off their income. They did exactly the same to me to previous mission and I was earning about 1 measly credit per second. Takes a while to buy even one Tartan at that rate! It was cool to see the computer hunt down my mines especially when their defences were diverted. However as another example I had three acclamators and two tartans hit the ZC lvl 2 station and over time bought on another seven more (so thats also a helluva alot of squardrons too) yet two Int 4 frigates and two crusader corvettes with a couple of StarVipers Sdqns were still able to destroy my level 2 station quicker than I could destroy theirs in what was basically a race to death. I would be interested to see how they go online. It would help if my account worked. :P

darthcarth
10-31-2006, 11:55 PM
Heh yeah in skirmish i cut off every mine off and they still could match me ship for ships with all the mines in my possesion now that has got to be haxing.

Valter
11-01-2006, 04:38 PM
I agree Rust-Lord, the Consortium is very overpowered in space. The Consortium ships need to be nerfed just slightly (especially those vengeance frigates). The ground forces are fine though, very balanced in my opinion.

Maybe someone should start a 'patch request' topic...

Darth Khasei
11-01-2006, 06:06 PM
LOL! Nerf away. I really just think since they are new and people have not figured out how to fight them. In space the ZC has a major disadvantage, the number of hard points on its ships are so few, that a well coordinated HP attack neuters them effectively. Especially if you have Tie-Defenders or B-Wings.

For instance the Vengeance has only 4 weapon HP and and an Engine HP and NO SHIELDS!

Keep on playing :)

mattwild
11-01-2006, 07:03 PM
Dear God. I've just had the longest game I've ever played against the AI. About 70 capital ships involved, I lost 14 Star Destroyers and 4 Thrawns, they lost 20 Mon Cal cruisers, numerous Ackbars, at least 30 Consortium capital ships. It was totally manic.

Just turn down the freaking Consortium, one hit from their space station can kill a TIE Defender!

Rust_Lord
11-01-2006, 07:08 PM
Cheers Valter, good to know im not alone and not simply crap at the game ;P In all seriousness I tested the Rebs against the Consortium last night on medium (same map) and, granted im not as good with them as Imps, they fared even worse than the Imps. As Darth Carth testified, I also captured every mine and sent Ywings to take out their supply depot yet the ZC was still able to keep up production and by the end of the game had more ships than I had.

Khasei I agree with you about the ZC lack of hardpoints; I have raised this before, however it seems imposible to get to a tech lvl past 3 playing against them without being defeated and as I said the computer will use crusaders to intercept your protons before they hit. The Vengeance frigates are extremely resilient and if you compare them with other ships of their class, Neb Bs also only have 5 hardpoints and VSDs 6, and VSDs actually have the LEAST number of weapons between the three. If their Ion cannons did something against the unshielded Vengeance, like slow it down or its fire rate or accuracy then good but it seems useless. But on the other side of the coin the Vengeance has mass drivers which IGNORE shields.

The games I have played against the ZC dont go much past 10 minutes. Ive tried crippling them economically, amassing as large a force as I can at low/mid tech level and going all out. The only thing I havent tried doing is trying to hold all the mines and trying to tech up to the heaviest ships, but this will not work because they are able to produce ships at a seemingly equal rate and as previosuly stated, their ships are more deadly than their comparable Imperial/Rebel craft.

I played the small campaign last night and after attacking the ZC planets I think you need about 2:1 advantage to the size of their fleet. Is it me or are their space stations tremendously tough?

I dont mind if the ZC have advantages in some areas over the other two factions however, I have played each faction on medium against each other faction and when you use either the Imps or the Rebs against the other it is still fairly easy. Against the ZC however, there is too greater a difference.

I like the changes thread Valter; consider it done.

Rust_Lord
11-01-2006, 07:27 PM
Dear God. I've just had the longest game I've ever played against the AI. About 70 capital ships involved, I lost 14 Star Destroyers and 4 Thrawns, they lost 20 Mon Cal cruisers, numerous Ackbars, at least 30 Consortium capital ships. It was totally manic.

Just turn down the freaking Consortium, one hit from their space station can kill a TIE Defender!

Sounds like fun. Havent done a three way yet. Sounds like your TIE Defender met the mass driver cannon. My condolences.

darthcarth
11-01-2006, 07:43 PM
Yeah hopefully a rescale/balance mod comes out or even just a balance mod so we can have equal sdes once again.

DCorris
11-01-2006, 08:23 PM
I have to agree with some peoples, the ZC is defiantly overpowered in certain areas.

One thing I don't quite get, on GC, I swear (but cant perfectly remember, bad memory) they have two Capital ships, Keldabe and Agesor class, and both can be built on any planet wile the rebellions Mon Cal and Empires ISD's can only be built on certain planets.
Is this not just a bit unfair considering one of theirs has a pretty mighty special weapon?

(do correct me if I've gotten anything wrong)

And I wont even start about how annoyingly powerful the ZC stations can be, lol.

mattwild
11-02-2006, 09:27 AM
Sounds like fun. Havent done a three way yet. Sounds like your TIE Defender met the mass driver cannon. My condolences.

Actually it was one of those irritating blue pulse cannon things. Consortium, just tone 'em down please.

Darth Khasei
11-02-2006, 04:36 PM
Hmm, this is getting a little tired already. I recommend playing as the ZC to see the best way to defeat them. Some of the guys in other threads have already figured out how to take advantage of the ZC weaknesses.

However, if you try to play them like you played EAW you'll lose and should. YOu need to remove corruption unless they have corrupted the Militia. You need to make sure they don't get a Black Market on your planets, this will effectively deny them the ability to tech up etc..You need to use sabotage often to cripple the Palace structure on their planets etc..

In terms of battle, let's take the TB4 vs the Pulse Cannon or the Canderus tank. The TB4 owns both and is 1/3 the cost of the Pulse cannon and 1/4 the cost of the Canderus tank. MONEY is a big difference maker. The rebel troop squads are under $100.00 and you get more troops. The Merc's are $325 and $450 and you only get 3-4 per squad.

Granted they have some things that appear to give them a TREMENDOUS advantage, but its only a small advantage when you counter them correctly. You really need to start checking the other threads where ppl are discussing "effective" ways to counter the ZC or mod in the nerfed changes you would like. All this whinning is soooooo tired :smash:

mattwild
11-02-2006, 04:42 PM
The TB-4 doesn't equate to the Pulse Cannon though, it technically matches up with the AT-AT (possibly 2B Tank) as the most powerful ground assault unit for each faction.

Also, care to tell us what these 'counters' are? You keep mentioning them, but not telling.

Rust_Lord
11-02-2006, 06:59 PM
Actually I think the T4-b would equate to the Cand. Ass. Tank thingy. Im not saying it would compete evenly but they are the factions respctive heavy tanks. The Pulse cannon is an oddity. Its like a tank destroyer. It seems to have more firepower than the Cand. but it alot weaker, which is pretty fair.

Khasei I havent had as tough a time fighting the ZC in GC as I expected after reading some posts here but they are definately overpowered in space. This is more obvious in skirmish than GC where you can remove corruption but they are very different games. I still find that the hardest thing about GC is assaulting ZC worlds in space.

mattwild
11-02-2006, 07:30 PM
Yeah, I'm fine too in Galactic Conquest, even get brave enough to leave corruption on worlds for money saving sometimes, it's just skirmishes which really irritate me. I think they might be overpowered because they have to buy their considerable special abilities in GC, whereas they get them for free in skirmish. Have to say the Consortium is pretty bad on the ground though, although they completely rock in space.

Darth Khasei
11-02-2006, 08:13 PM
Also, care to tell us what these 'counters' are? You keep mentioning them, but not telling.

Hmm, you mean like destory the enemy Palace every chance you get? Or like making sure you don't ever let them get a black market on any of your planets so they "can't" tech up? :giggle1:

BTW, you may have a point about "Space Skirmish" because the disadvantages the ZC suffers in GC don't apply to skirmish. I need more space seat time to be sure about space. The starfigthers rock but the caps all have some downfalls you can take advantage of for sure.

Darth Khasei
11-02-2006, 08:13 PM
Sorry dbl post.

Darth_Extas
11-02-2006, 10:54 PM
In Skirmish I have found no problem, in fact I do like the AI. It is a good idea of always have heroes on hand. As the ZC I have been defeated by both the Rebellion and the Empire (and I am a good rts player). So I see it fairly balanced although, in Origin of Corruption I think the ZC has too many planets to start out with.

darthcarth
11-03-2006, 12:01 AM
In skirmish thier is a big problem its called fighter spaming since fighters are now more powerfull all factions spam the basic fighter at your base until they get to tech level 3 and get friagtes, all this time u are trying to defend oyur base, and not lose but they some how still manage to out number you.

mrsparkle
11-04-2006, 07:01 PM
In skirmish thier is a big problem its called fighter spaming since fighters are now more powerfull all factions spam the basic fighter at your base until they get to tech level 3 and get friagtes, all this time u are trying to defend oyur base, and not lose but they some how still manage to out number you.

Exactly. It's all I've been seeing. Their fighters are way too powerful.

Darth Khasei
11-05-2006, 12:00 AM
Space skirmish fighter spamming could be addressed somewhat by making the black market items upgrades for purchase instead of free.

Having said that, one to one the Viper is better than other fighters, but that one element can't win a GC, which is where the game has "perfect" balance IMHO.

The best you might get is a choice to make the BM items for purchase in skirmish, but all the calls for nerfing the ZC units, will fall on deaf ears as the GC would suffer too much.

mrsparkle
11-06-2006, 12:29 AM
How about removing BM items from skirmish?

DCorris
11-06-2006, 02:31 PM
I was looking through the Petroglyph forums, and the topic there about ZC capital ships.
http://www.petroglyphgames.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=855

Which does prove they can be built on any planet, giving them a pretty big advantage over Emp and Reb sides, though I have a feeling it was a mistake considering the reply from Delphi-PG, lol

Darth Khasei
11-06-2006, 05:51 PM
How about removing BM items from skirmish?

What you really mean is how about removing "ALL" special abilities from "ALL" sides right? Because all BM items are is the same kind of special abilities each side has (ie.empire power to weapons or rebels power to shields etc.) I don't think you are suggesting only removing these things from one side, the ZC, or are you?

mrsparkle
11-08-2006, 09:14 AM
No I'm not suggesting remove all abilites just from the ZC. I think a few abilities do need axeing in skirmish though. Buzz droids for instance.

Darth Khasei
11-08-2006, 06:55 PM
No I'm not suggesting remove all abilites just from the ZC. I think a few abilities do need axeing in skirmish though. Buzz droids for instance.

So what about lure for A-Wings and S-foils for X-Wings and power to weapons for Tie defenders and no cloaking for Tie Phantoms........:laugh6:

Honestly, though I could care less what they do to balance space multiplayer because I don't play that way. Plus I "ALWAYS" mod my computer games to my prefs anyway, so it matters not. I was just sick of hearing a trend to tone down the ZC they should be the weakest etc..... No worries mate.

TearsOfIsha
11-10-2006, 08:58 AM
Actually, I've not had much bother with the Corrupt faction (beyond their magic base destroying ray activates when you clear corruption from certain planets). I'm mainly having problems with the empire. Petro appear to have forgotten that if you allow the AI to bring in 10 star destroyers at once, then the battle becomes unwinnable.

Lundquist
11-10-2006, 10:24 AM
I don't understand how someone can claim that the ZC isn't overpowered. I was just playing GC with the Rebel side, and I attacked Bothawui with the following force:

Home One
Sundered Heart
4x Calamari Cruisers
4x Mc30c
1x Assault Frigate
1x Nebulon Frigate
7x Corellian Corvettes
6x Corellian Gunboats
10x B-Wings

the ZC had:
1x Level 4 space station
2x V class frigates

In that battle I managed to take down 1 Vengeance Frigate before my entire forces were completely destroyed - With all my ships constantly firing at a Veangence frigate it took about 5 minutes to bring it down. Before that, my fleet had just ripped through an entire imperial fleet with 4 SD and several other ships, with no big losses.
Doesn't that seem overpowered?

The groundbattles I find is balanced fine though - it just sucks that Luke, Yoda or Obi-Wan can't be used in raidparties:/

TearsOfIsha
11-10-2006, 03:08 PM
Sounds like another bug. The Vengence cruisers are those weird, cross shaped mass-driver toting things, yeah? They do appear tough - but I've found a fully equipped Assault Frigate is enough to bring them down. Some Y-wings are a big help.

Oh, and you say you had 4 MC30s shooting out the same time 5 minutes? There's definitely something went wrong there, I've brought down an ISD with that many before in about 2 minutes....

mattwild
11-10-2006, 06:17 PM
Now that is very true, MC30s will make absolute bloody mincemeat of anything resembling a capital ship.

YertyL
11-11-2006, 04:57 AM
Haha, I just found a funny illustration of the ZC's imbalance:
http://www.esl.eu/de/empireatwar/foc/1on1/news/30106/
It's a german cup and they explicitly exlude the ZC as a party for balance reasons:

# Start: 08.11.06 18:00
# Zeit zwichen den Matches: Zwei Tage
# Zann Konsortium verboten!

I just find it funny that they appear to be so OP that they have to be excluded from a match if it is to be fair.

TearsOfIsha
11-11-2006, 05:50 AM
Haha, I just found a funny illustration of the ZC's imbalance:
http://www.esl.eu/de/empireatwar/foc/1on1/news/30106/
It's a german cup and they explicitly exlude the ZC as a party for balance reasons:

I just find it funny that they appear to be so OP that they have to be excluded from a match if it is to be fair.

I think that pretty much says it all really. At least the devs are watching these forums - I think the next patch will at least make up for mistakes. Good lord, they need to get a new testing team - the exp pack feels like it's an alpha version.

Lundquist
11-11-2006, 07:00 AM
hmmm... I think some of the mods I took over from "regular" EAW screwed it up a bit. I now AM capable of taking out those ships and bases - however, I still think it's insanely more tough then taking out what's supposed to be the equivalent in Imperial forces.