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View Full Version : Was the prophecy of bringing balance to the force what the jedi believed to be?


aner21
11-05-2006, 03:01 PM
A lot has been said regarding the prophecy of Anakin bringing balance to the force and how that was only accomplished when he killed his Darth Vader persona and the Emperor.
But in my opinion Darth Vader accomplished that by leveling the numbers of light and darksiders.
Before the Empire the were thousands of LS against a handfull of DS.
By cutting down the LS numbers wasnīt Anakin/Vader fulfilling his destiny?
Bringing balance between those two sides?

Kurgan
11-05-2006, 04:30 PM
Lucas has stated that Anakin brings balance to the Force by destroying the Sith. He killed the Emperor and then died himself (redeemed by Luke). So he fulfilled the prophecy.

If it were just about bringing equal numbers of Jedi/Sith then it failed, because it was UNbalanced with Luke being the only (Lightside) Jedi, and no darksiders, plus Leia (lightside).

In the EU (the writers had no idea of this prophecy until Lucas revealed it in 1999), there are large numbers of light and dark siders even after ROTJ and are for decades. There are even some Sith! (Or those who claim to be Sith)

In fact, according to the EU, Palpatine's dark side "spirit" is still floating around living in cloned bodies and even possessing people, long after his "death" in ROTJ. Exar Kun's sith spirit also roams around doing harm, and others make appearances too like the Sith spirit of Marka Ragnos.

So the EU basically ignores the prophecy (or had no idea of it). There's a big contradiction there, and I don't know how the Holocron has retconned it (if they have) since then.

And I wouldn't say that the prophecy is that the remaining Force users would "use both sides of the Force" or something like that, since again, even though the EU has Luke go to the Dark Side, he comes back from it. You're either on one side or the other, you're not "gray Jedi" in the middle. They try to say that the powers you use have no bearing on what "side" of the Force you're on, only the "intention." So you can't use both sides of the Force, according to that thinking.

So the "equal number = balance" doesn't seem to fit with either Lucas's intent, how the movies play out, or the EU's interpretation of things.

If it WERE about equal numbers, then Vader fulfilled the prophecy by (helping, since he only killed a few Jedi himself, the rest were killed by Stormtroopers or they died in battle in the Clone Wars) kill the 10,000 Jedi, leaving only two alive (Obi-Wan and Yoda) with two Sith (himself and the Emperor). By killing the Emperor he then UNBALANCED things, yet Lucas says he fulfills the prophecy in ROTJ (which wouldn't make sense if it were just equal numbers). Ben dies, but Luke becomes a Jedi.. so still even numbers. Then Yoda dies, so there's more Sith than Jedi. Then the two Sith die... oops!

To Lucas, bringing balance to the Force means destroying the Sith. The Sith unbalanced the Force in the first place (specifically Palpatine).

Lucas explains this on the DVD audio commentaries (specifically those that discuss the prophecy... not just Episode I and III, but also ROTJ.. I don't remember if the Episode II commentary discusses it, but you could check that one too).

In the context of the story, the Prophecy might just be complete BS (Yoda even admits it might have been misread). However out of story, Lucas said what he intended, so we can take that or leave it.

PoiuyWired
11-05-2006, 05:22 PM
Well, whatever it is, the prophecy as does fulfill the effect of "killing all living sithlords" from the galaxy far far away. As we know it even from OT, the lure of darkside is always there, so "bring balance to the force" never means "there will never be darksiders ever again"

And, as some point in time right after Vader's Death, the world IS purged of sith. So the prophecy does hold true.

GL's idea of "bring balance to the force" is explained as kurgan did, more or less. While I am sure chopping up jedi scums is not the idea of "balance" GL has in mind, rebuilding the Jedi Order is.

Well, I guess setting the jedis on the right path is part of bringing balance maybe. The old jedi order is too clumsy a structure anyways, and its time to slaughter most of them and start anew, like whatever's happened before.

aner21
11-05-2006, 06:29 PM
Although when I mentioned equal numbers I wasn't being that specific I understand your point (still their numbers are closer than before 10000-2/2-1), and I didn't remembered Yoda saying that. But Kurgan stated that you're either LS or DS never gray.
I know I will mention things outside the prequel trilogy, and leaving the topic a little but I'm trying to understand this "no gray area" thing.
In the game Jedi Academy Katarn states that the force powers aren't inherently good or evil, itīs what you do with them that counts. They are just fueled by different emotions. They can let you more susceptible to one particular side but besides that... Qui-Gon was "accused" of being gray in the movies therefore it's "G canon".
The NJO would be considered "gray" through the standarts of the Jedi order at the time of episode I, right?
They form bonds and have relations and children, all this forbiden to the jedi for it leads to emotions such as love, fear....Of course GL IS GL so whatever he says.... is right.

grievous797
12-28-2006, 03:52 PM
Anakin indeed brought balence to the force by himself being redeemed from the dark side then by hurling his master down the reactor shaft he killed the last remnent of the dark side and thus the force was put back into balence. *whew* That was one long sentence.

Negative Sun
12-30-2006, 09:51 PM
I don't think it was a pure LS vs DS thing, Palpatine had been unbalancing things for way too long I think, first because the Jedi didn't know of his presence, so the Dark Side had the upper hand, even though it didn't seem like it...then by plunging the galaxy into darkness, killing billions of innocents, which caused huge disturbances in the Force...
Anakin killed him and fixed all that, and I think his sacrifice is very important in that balance too, because he was the chosen one after all, he had seen the LS and DS, but in the end chose to do what was right from the heart, not from a belief...Which I think is the ultimate balance anyone can achieve (if that makes sense)

The Source
12-30-2006, 10:37 PM
Anakin indeed brought balence to the force by himself being redeemed from the dark side then by hurling his master down the reactor shaft he killed the last remnent of the dark side and thus the force was put back into balence. *whew* That was one long sentence.
The one thing I have a problem is: What makes the force balanced?

(2) Jedi = (0) Sith
(1) Jedi = (1) Sith
(2) Jedi = (1) Sith

If the force was balanced after the Emporer and Anakin were killed, and Luke and Liea are alive, doesn't that make the force unbalanced again?

Interesting. There seems to be a conundrum here. Inorder for good and evil to be balanced, there must be some type of scale. If there are no Sith left with the death of Vader and the Emporer, the force is once again unbalanced.

Or- Is Luke or Leia evil? If one of them was a Sith, the Force would once again be balanced. As we know from EU, both of them were indeed not evil. Conundrum again.

Or- Is there something that Lucas has left out, which has never been written about in EU books. Maybe there was going to a fourth movie? Brother versus Sister?

The mysteries of unsolved mysteries.

Kurgan
01-07-2007, 08:17 AM
Kyle Katarn never states that there is no Dark or Light side only gray (such BS notions come from the Vergere character in the NJO series, who is later exposed as a confused liar).

Rather he says that certain POWERS (the ones available to you in the game) are neither dark nor light of themselves, and it's how you use them that matters.

Of course in the game itself, it doesn't even matter how you use them. You can force grip everyone you meet and as long as you don't kill a character necessary to complete a mission (however you kill them it results in a mission failure), you're in the clear. You could pick all dark side powers and be fine. In single player it doesn't matter one bit.

It should also be pointed out that this is merely Kyle's OPINION, not a canonical fact.

The Dark Side most certainly exists, and the canon bears this out.

When was Qui Gon Jinn "accused of being a gray Jedi"? That doesn't happen in the movie... the term "Gray Jedi" never appears in any of the movies, so are you getting this from some book? Or are you quoting a wiki page? (remember, those aren't canon...)


The prophecy was fulfilled. This may conflict with the EU or make the EU look silly, but oh well. Then you just have a case of George Lucas's own story conflicting with the pre-established Expanded Universe continuity.


If you want to gel them together and retcon it, I guess you could say that the Prophecy was just that this really dangerous dark side cult that was really abusing the Force in the universe was going to be wiped out, and it was all for the best. So Anakin fulfills it by killing his master and turning back to the light before he dies. Other people use the Dark Side after that, but none of them are equal to the threat that the Sith had with their stranglehold on the galaxy for those 25 or so dark years of the Empire... (longer in the EU since the Empire holds onto power for a few decades or so more beyond the movies).

On the other hand, the EU says that Palpatine cheats death and comes back stronger than ever, so according to the EU the prophecy is pure BS, since the Sith weren't destroyed until much later, and it was due to the actions of Luke and Leia (who destroyed the clone Emperor that was possessed by Palpatine's spirit) and some other Jedi who helped (that floating dude), not Anakin.

Mysteries of the Sith also has some Sith monsters, creatures and spirits still alive and well (or at least undead!) for Kyle and Mara to fight, many years after ROTJ. The Jedi Academy trilogy gives us the sith spirit of Exar Kun causing problems for the Jedi many years after ROTJ, and I forget who defeats him, but I guarentee you it is not Anakin Skywalker! Jedi Academy (the game) gives us the dark soul of Marka Ragnos causing havoc in the galaxy, and he's vanquished by the actions of Jaden Korr, not Anakin.

In the EU basically there are many revivals and survivors of the Sith that continue to plague the galaxy, so the prophecy is never really fulfilled. That's a direct contradiction to the movies, if indeed it was Lucas's intention (as he's stated a few times) that the prophecy was fulfilled in Anakin's defeat of the Emperor and his own death on the Death Star in ROTJ.

But I guess that's a problem for the EU (the writers aren't at fault since they wrote their story before Lucas had revealed the full storyline of the prequels..., and the other writers and game developers after that just didn't care that much).

blh765
01-09-2007, 07:56 AM
A lot has been said regarding the prophecy of Anakin bringing balance to the force and how that was only accomplished when he killed his Darth Vader persona and the Emperor.
But in my opinion Darth Vader accomplished that by leveling the numbers of light and darksiders.
Before the Empire the were thousands of LS against a handfull of DS.
By cutting down the LS numbers wasnīt Anakin/Vader fulfilling his destiny?
Bringing balance between those two sides?

I think what was meant was that Anakin brought balence to the force by destroying the Emperor, and himself, thus destroying the Sith for a while.

Vaelastraz
01-14-2007, 01:34 PM
Well then there must be chosen ones every 50 years.

aner21
01-22-2007, 06:56 PM
"Kyle Katarn never states that there is no Dark or Light side only gray" - did I? :halo2:
Like I said "Katarn states that the force powers aren't inherently good or evil" I didn't say there was no Light or Dark Side to the Force nor that it was canon, only that a force sensitive could choose neither and that the use of one particular power doesn't make someone automatically a Sith.
I just gave an example of SW universe that allowed that view because you completely dismissed the possibility of something in between.:stick:
And although the word "grey" is not used in the films, in Ep I Obi-Wan warns Qui-Gon that his "opinions" conflict with those of the council and that is why he's not part of it (memory's fuzzy but I believe he defended a more proactiv approach to some matters). But I have only seen it once or twice and it's been over 2 years, so I won't insist.

Exactly!! MacCorp has a point! What exactly is this balance?? It's not a mathematical equation and blh765's theory that Anakin destroyed the Sith doesn't add up because then "there must be chosen ones every 50 years" and if you take C-Canon as being somewhat canonical they keep existing in EU.
I never quite got that prophecy :giveup: and in fact related with Palpatine when he joked with the council's definition of balance, to (who knows how many) LS there were (theoratically) only 2 DS.
In my opinion one side can't exist without the other, only without force users could there be a balance. After all darkness is the absence of light.

aftghftrd
03-04-2007, 12:26 PM
In my opinion one side can't exist without the other, only without force users could there be a balance. After all darkness is the absence of light.


Not really since the Dark Side is a corruption and perversion of the force,and is most certainly not a opposite of the Light Side (at least it shouldn't be...).

The Jedi live in harmony with the Force and hence they keep the Force balanced.

The Sith are the exact opposite of this because instead of living in harmony with
the Force like the Jedi they abuse it's power for their own purposes which from what I can tell hurts the Force and therefore unbalances it.

Anything that says otherwise is illogical moral relavism

Sam!
03-05-2007, 04:56 AM
OF COURSE! The balance bringing to the force was when Vader killed Palpatine-io. Luke felt very sad. Anyways, the force had balance but then after that all other complications happen like, in the New Jedi Order series, with the Yuuzhan Vong, but they weren't force users. But G.L always comes up with all of these complicated stuff, so balance to the force may NEVER be brung. It is for now.

aner21
03-21-2007, 07:19 PM
"Not really since the Dark Side is a corruption and perversion of the force,and is most certainly not a opposite of the Light Side".
I see what you mean. But by definition you are saying that Ashla (LS Jedi training) is the right way and every other way is wrong. (I Know GL said those were the rules, and he made that universe but quoting Luke in EU: "Force is a river from which many can drink, and the training of the Jedi is not the only cup which can catch it").
The abilities of LSiders ans DSiders are only fuelled by different methods (LS are good and DS are bad being irrelevent) while one side does so with meditation and ditachment, the other uses strong emotions.
Yes the Sith are evil and the Jedi are good but their techniques are both valid.

Lord XZantor
05-27-2007, 12:10 PM
Yea, ok so Aniken killed the Light siders. Then became Vader. Killed Sidious. Was redemed by Luke, well forgiven i should say. Then died.He only brought peace into the movies. So just considering the moveis, yes he did. Luke then went out and remade the Jedi. But, aftghftrd, not all the Sith abused there power. Thats just in the moveis. While 5 & 6 were going on there was another sith. You don't know it because it isn't in the moveis. But he was Sith who helped people. Read "betrayl" or how ever you spell it. And you'll see, not all sith were bad. Nope.

Kurgan
05-27-2007, 10:00 PM
A good Sith who lived during the movies? Great! ;)

As if the EU didn't screw up enough things!

Seriously though, back when there were just three movies, you could keep it all together pretty well. Since the EU and then since the prequels and the EU back on top if it, it's just a big mess!

Now Anakin's sacrifice seems pretty diminished if he really didn't stop anyone except the Emperor. But then, the EU writers couldn't be faulted for a subplot (the "prophecy of the one to bring balance to the force") that Lucas didn't become canon until 1999 (it was in the third draft of Episode I from 1997, not sure if it was in the scripts earlier than that though).

I freely admit that Lucas's revisionism annoys me, however, considering the that Lucas came up with the "prophecy" idea with Episode I and developed it throughout Episode III, and intended for us to interpret Anakin's death in ROTJ through that lense (of Episodes I-III), the prophecy as I stated (from Lucas) makes the most sense.

The Sith become so powerful they unbalanced the Force with their Dark Side corruption. Anakin wiped out the remaining Sith, bringing balance. Whatever happened after that is not Lucas's story, so it's not up to him to fix it and make it work. It would seem that the prophecy was wrong though, if the EU is accurate, since really there were many more Sith around at the time, including some much more powerful than Vader or Palpatine, which Anakin did nothing to stop, and Palpatine himself was not stopped by his physical death, but roamed around for years afterward causing havoc. So Anakin's death was meaningful, but greatly diminished.

Sort of like saying instead of a guy who died assasinating Hitler, he just assasinated one of Hitler's generals.


The EU guys could have done something about all those Sith spirits, by having the good Jedi spirits fight them in the "netherworld." That would have been more "believable" (or at least less cliched) than forcing the Jedi spirits to "go away" and make the living Jedi do battle with the dead Sith/Dark Jedi.

Darth krunchy
07-23-2008, 04:34 PM
Lucas has stated that Anakin brings balance to the Force by destroying the Sith. He killed the Emperor and then died himself (redeemed by Luke). So he fulfilled the prophecy.
Yep. And this is Lucas' story, I take him at his word. :)

Relenzo2
07-23-2008, 06:37 PM
Well then there must be chosen ones every 50 years.

In my opinion entirely possible. :)


The balance to the Force was never said to be permanent. The number of Jedi has nothing to do with it, the presence of Sith however corrupts the Force. So, when Vader killed the Emporer and himself, at that moment in time there were no living Sith, a.k.a. "balance". Comprende'?

Kado Sunrider
08-12-2008, 06:42 PM
Here's my opinion:

The Force (in a deity-like motion of balance) influenced the Dark Lord Plageius to create a living being with the force. (Anakin Skywalker) By doing this, the Force created its guardians, the Skywalker clan to keep the BoP within the force:

Lets Tally this up now to back up my point:

Anakin Skywalker - Helped in reforming of Jedi Order. Sith killed: 1
Luke Skywalker - Formed the NJO. Sith Killed: upwards of 20 would be my guess.
Jaina Solo - Sith Killed: 1

We know from the EU that the later descendants of the Skywalker Clan are also peacekeepers of justice.

Now into the realm of solid guesswork,

It has been stated here that the Balance of the Force is created by an equal number of light and dark jedi. I believe it is a balance between the light and dark in the users of the force.

A wise man once said,

"It is not the powers we use, but the way we use them."

This statement, though not entirely canonical, is a pretty good hint that lucas' final intent was to have the NJO become "grey" though thats not really possible because there IS no grey OR light OR dark. There is only the Force.

GeneralPloKoon
08-12-2008, 10:53 PM
I say balance was brought to the force, but not the Sith, I think the prophecy ment there would never be another Sith stronger than Palpatine.

Rev7
08-12-2008, 11:38 PM
OLD THREAD! Word of advice, don't resurrect them. ;)

adamqd
08-13-2008, 04:11 AM
OLD THREAD! Word of advice, don't resurrect them. ;)

Let the Mods mod rev.

This statement, though not entirely canonical, is a pretty good hint that lucas' final intent was to have the NJO become "grey" though thats not really possible because there IS no grey OR light OR dark. There is only the Force.

Lucas has little to no knowledge of post ROTJ, Sue rostoni once said she mentioned that Luke had married once to George in passing, but she doesnt think he knows he has a son :)

But I agree with your definition of Balance to the force

Maphisto86
08-14-2008, 12:17 PM
I am pretty sure George has stated what bringing the Force back into balance means. It is not an equal amount of light siders and dark siders, Jedi and Sith, but the end to the abuse of the power of the Force by powerful Sith or Dark Jedi.

According to Wookieepedia, the flanneled one has stated the following in an interview segment: "The first film starts with the last age of the Republic, which is it's getting tired, it's old, it's getting corrupt.

There's the rise of the Sith, who are becoming a force, and in the backdrop of this we have Anakin Skywalker, a young boy who is destined to be a significant player in bringing balance back to the Force and to the Republic...

Then in the second film we get into more of that turmoil. It's the beginning of the Clone Wars, it's the beginning of the end of democracy in the Republic, sort of the beginning of the end of the Republic. And it's Anakin Skywalker beginning to deal with some of his more intense emotions of anger, hatred, sense of loss, possesiveness, jealousy, and the other things he has to cope with.

And then we will get to the 3rd film where he is seduced to the dark side..

Which brings us up to the films 4, 5, and 6, in which Anakin's offspring redeem him and allow him to fulfill the prophecy where he brings Balance to the Force by doing away with the Sith and getting rid of evil in the universe..."

In another interview, Lucas supposedly likened the use of the Force by the Jedi as one like a symbiotic relationship, whereas the Sith and other dark siders, are like a cancer, feeding off the Force for destructive ends and twisting the natural energy of the galaxy to serve themselves. This probably explains why in Episode II, Mace Windu says that the Jedi's ability to use the Force had diminished, since the Force itself was so out of balance due to the machinations over centuries of plotting by the secretive Sith Order.

It's obvious though that the Jedi's expectations for the fulfillment of said prophecy where dashed. They expected Anakin to bring balance within their generation and as a Jedi Knight, not after becoming a Sith Lord, destroying the Jedi Order in the process.