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View Full Version : Help Old Uncle Astro: Intel Machine Wont Start


Astrotoy7
12-02-2006, 01:38 AM
Heya!

Im interested to see what our fellow experts think !

A colleague had donated his intel p4 2.8. I was going to do a fresh install of xp and then pass it onto one of needy community groups via work.

I installed xp fine. I installed everest/pc wizrard... I see that the p4 is cookin at a steady 102 degrees celsius !! I cant say I kept it on for more than 10 mins like this. The *idiot* that had put this together installed NO fans apart from the one on the CPU(it wasnt an off the shelf name brand gadget, but one of those 'maverick jackass corner pc shop' beige cased jobs)

I decided to take the CPU fan, clean up the chip and heatsink and pop it back on...something Ive done countless times... I was fine with all the electrostat precautions etc. After I did this I have been unable to get it to start at all :(

It has a socket 478 gigabyte mb. When I had taken the fan/heatsink off, I didnt plug anything else out or mess with a CMOS switch...

Any idea what could be causing this ?? Apart from getting an alternate mboard and CPU, is there anyway to test if the mbaord has shorted or fried ??

Damn that system and damn intel....:(

thanks in advance :)

mtfbwya

T7nowhere
12-02-2006, 04:17 AM
wow 102 celsius thats damn hot. Perhaps the cpu overheated and and died. The stock HSF should have been enough to keep the cpu from gaining temps like that, the case must have also had atleast the psu fan to keep airflow moving.

Is the mobo or any other devices powering up or is nothing at all happening when you press the power button.

Have you checked the ATX power connector. I had to repair a system the other day that wouldn't power up even though it had perfectly the previous friday. I discovered after replacing the PSU that it was actually the power connector that was faulty. It would only work when the power cable was place in a specific place. So have ya tried to wiggle the power cable when its all plugged in. Just be carefull if you do this.

The only parts that I can think of that would prevent a system from powering up are:
Failed mobo
Failed psu
hdd or fdd ide cable plugged in backwards(though I have only seen that on AT systems everything is pretty idiot proof now ;)
failed CPU might prevent it from powering up(although I've never seen that)

Test the psu in another system or switch the psu for a known good one, if you still get no power, then I would assume that mobo has failed.

Astrotoy7
12-02-2006, 07:37 AM
yeah, that sound like an option T7 :) Will plug in another PSU later tonite. There are 'signs of life' when the power button is on - so not totally dead, just nothing coming up on the screen. The mobo LED comes up for the RAM slot. There is a 'ground' plug that seems to be coming from teh case somewhere - I cant see where it may possible go on the mobo, and im 99% sure it wasnt plugged in when I opened it up anyway.

still, 102C, damn those p4 chips *waves fists*

I know my friend was having problems with it, but we had put this down to some very nasty viruses. Things seemed to clear up with the reformat, but I think this temp issue was lurking there all the time. I actually do remember checking it a few weeks ago via everest and the temp was in the 30s. I also know my friend hasnt used his PC at all in the intervening weeks.

Is a failing mobo likely to give an inaccurate CPU temp result, before it actually upped and died :(

but socket 478 mobos are cheap nowdays, so it wont be a huge deal to replace - I just want to make sure its the mobo - not the CPU !

mtfbwya

T7nowhere
12-02-2006, 03:14 PM
Your sure thats celcius and not fahrenheit, because 102 fahrenheit would be about 39 celcius. I just have trouble believing that the cpu is running at 102 celcius. I mean the cmos should automatically shut the system down at 80 celcius, unless that failsafe was turned off.

Even if something is faulty on the mobo if the sensor is telling the mobo that the cpu is running at 102 celcius then it would still shut down the system.

However if it is detecting the cpu at 102C then that would be why the system does not power up.

After you cleaned up the cpu and HSF what thermal compound did you apply?

Astrotoy7
12-02-2006, 10:28 PM
Your sure thats celcius and not fahrenheit, because 102 fahrenheit would be about 39 celcius. I just have trouble believing that the cpu is running at 102 celcius. I mean the cmos should automatically shut the system down at 80 celcius, unless that failsafe was turned off.

Even if something is faulty on the mobo if the sensor is telling the mobo that the cpu is running at 102 celcius then it would still shut down the system.

However if it is detecting the cpu at 102C then that would be why the system does not power up.

After you cleaned up the cpu and HSF what thermal compound did you apply?

yes, I needed to rub my eyes a few times, it was indeed 102C with both apps I used.(Thats why I actually used two apps - because I though PC Wizard wasnt working well, I put everest on and got the same thing)

I used arctic silver 5 as the TIM. Ive used it a squillion times before with no incident ?? Is it not good ?!!

thanks for your help T7 :)

mtfbwya

Astrotoy7
12-03-2006, 01:41 AM
haha. case closed. A friend of mine had an almost identical, derelict but still functional s478 mboard/cpu...

Tried his cpu in his mb and my PSU(Control) >> ALL GOOD
Tried my cpu in his mb >> no good
Tried his cpu in my mb >> no good

conclusion >> my mb and cpu are DEAD.

action >> sledgehammer(thanks to Jae for the tip)

I will end this saga with a lovely little quote I found when researching prescott woes:

Upon release, the Prescott turned out to generate approximately 40% more heat clock-for-clock than the Northwood, and almost every review of it was negative, earning it the soubriquet PresHot. A shift in socket type (from Socket 478 to LGA775) was expected to reduce the heat to more acceptable levels, but in fact proved to have the opposite effect, with power requirements increasing by a further 10%. However, the LGA775 reference cooler and mounting system were somewhat better designs, so average temperatures were slightly lowered. Subsequent revisions to the processor by Intel engineers were expected to reduce average temperatures, but this never happened outside of the lowest speed grades.

Finally, the thermal problems were so severe, Intel decided to abandon the Prescott architecture altogether, and attempts to roll out a 4 GHz part were abandoned, as a waste of internal resources. Also of concern was the fact that reviews showed in extreme cases it took a 5.2 GHz Prescott core to match the performance of an Athlon FX-55 that clocked at 2.6 GHz [5]. Considering Intel boasted at launch the Pentium 4 architecture was designed for 10 GHz operation, this can be seen as one of the most significant, certainly most public, engineering shortfalls in Intelís history...

..and people wonder why Im an AMD fan :D

Intel can stick their quaddies AFAIC, AMDs K8L quads and fusion chips will put intel back into their place.... Conroe users can have their jollies for the moment... I hope sony make a strong entry into the market, and pop intel down into 3rd and final place

*boos*

also, a very special diss to that *IDIOT* who built an s478 prescott machine with NO FREAKIN FANS. :blast5: incompetent fool.


mtfbwya

Q
12-03-2006, 03:25 AM
Intel's mistake was that they stuck with Netburst (P4) as long as they did. They should have moved on sooner rather than continue to try to improve an architecture that was clearly a dead end. The fact that AMD is releasing K8L ASAP shows that they're not making the same mistake as Intel did.

Astrotoy7
12-03-2006, 04:30 AM
Intel's mistake was that they stuck with Netburst (P4) as long as they did. They should have moved on sooner rather than continue to try to improve an architecture that was clearly a dead end. The fact that AMD is releasing K8L ASAP shows that they're not making the same mistake as Intel did.

Id venture to say that AMD could have been destroyed by such a massive stuff up. Nope, with Intel, its just, "lets fire 10,000 people and get on with it" (http://www.engadget.com/2006/09/05/intel-tightens-belt-lets-go-over-10-000-jobs/) :( That's 10% of its workforce !! In comparison, AMDs total workforce is 15,000 :p Of course, some jobs were cut as a result of the ATI takeover(though 375 job cuts (http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/061116/technology/technology_amd_cuts) is a much less staggering figure).

Even more distastrous were the plans to release the much vaunted "4.0 Ghz" part based on prescott architecture....it wouldve been a TIMEBOMB sitting in people PCS around the world. Funnily enough sanity began to prevail around this time, and the efforts of AMD and Apple to debunk the "megahertz myth" (http://www.apple.com/za/g4/myth/) took the focus away from total clockspeed and more onto efficiency. This is why AMD 2.2 etc machines outperform the older P4 3.8 CPUs etc.

With all of Apples raving back then though, its funny theyve ended up shacking up with Intel, but sometimes necessity breeds strange bedfellows :p

What is upsetting though is that people who went out and bought machines back then would've been fed a pack of lies about high clockspeeds etc. Moreso, the people who bought prescott based systems may have been unfortunate enough to end up with a system which wasn't built to last, unless the system builder took great pains to managed the thermal issues the cpu has. A "2.8ghz" is capable by todays standards, let alone 3 years ago, too bad people like my friend would never be able to take advantage of that.

Retailers need to be more responsible. It still happens now, whether its Intel, AMD or Apple systems being sold at a retail place. Im sure some of us have had the experience of overhearing a slick salesman telling unsuspecting 'mom n dad' consumers about how whatever theyre selling is 'fastest and best'. Is it really what they need ?? People who really know what they need wouldnt be going to such a place anyway, and are DIYers. Im cringing with the upcoming release of vista, so many people are going to be suckered into buying a machine that needs higher default specs, to do things they can achieve on a basic xp machine.

Sure, those of us who are gamers(DX10), media center system builders(Vista Media Center) and business level users will know what we are going to be buying Vista for.... but 'mom n dad' consumers buying a computer for their young kids to do homework on, or for them to do some work and surf the net with ?? :(

lolz...

let's see what Sony can do to liven up this 2 pony race !!


mtfbwya