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Lathain Valtiel
12-08-2006, 07:53 PM
You honestly might as well use the Meatgrinder server for OJP-E. Nobody visits it for Basic anymore, and it's more stable. Plus, if it crashes (...is there a PDuel problem?), I can bring it back up.

And as much as I hate to admit it, roasting you all to death is very amusing.

---

Right, comments...

Flamethrower: Cute, very cute. I like it, it's not overpowering, but it's useful as a tool for wearing down the opposition. I do think its fuel restoration rate should be increased slightly, by, say... 5 to 10%?

Seeker Drone: Also a useful tool for wearing down the opposition. However, it has a few annoying quirks. One, unless I'm hallucinating, it keeps making its activation sound every few seconds. Two, if you move erratically to confuse your opponents, the drone will get in your way and stop you from moving, which is rather irritating.

Thermals: Ehhh... they are NOT worth skill 8 points a pop without a contact explosion secondary. As they are, it's more like 5s... decently easy to evade from what I can see.

Detpacks: DEFINITELY not worth their 8 point cost. Even if they are powerful, there is a delay between dropping and using them, and worse yet they are supposed to be trap weapons. It is not a very effective trap if an opponent can evade damage from two placed in their feet in succession, since the activation means you don't have another weapon to blast them for a second or two. As they are, either double the amount of ammo a slot of Detpack gives you, or drop their point cost to 6.

Rocket Launcher: You already know what I say about this. I actually don't mind how it functions at the moment EXCEPT for the ridiculously long cooldown that stops you from switching away from it. I do think however that 8 per shot is excessive even if that cooldown were reduced or it allowed weapon swap, it should be 7s.

Pistol and Blaster: USELESS. USELESS. USELESS. Blaster definitely needs its secondary function restored, no questions asked. So does Pistol, and possibly make it fire slightly quicker. There's honestly no use for it.

Bowcaster: That secondary needs to be slowed down a bit, but ONLY if Blaster secondary is restored. In the meantime it is fine as it is.

Lightning: The range for the line-based Lightning is a bit too long when you consider its knockdown effect.

Jetpack: Actually, I haven't used this yet. However, if it's possible, could you make it that while in midair and you have it, pressing Jump activates the jetpack?

JRHockney*
12-08-2006, 10:02 PM
Pistol and Blaster: USELESS. USELESS. USELESS. Blaster definitely needs its secondary function restored, no questions asked. So does Pistol, and possibly make it fire slightly quicker. There's honestly no use for it.

There still useful for fighting other gunners, but yeah they are pretty useless against saber. I kinda miss the secondary fire as well.

I still think that saberists should lose triple DP if they are hit with any kind oblaster bolt while running and swinging. This would make the blasters a bit more useful and make the jedi not just recklessly swing at gunners like they can now and just make it more movielike in general. Thats pretty fair and conservative considering that MB2 allows NO defense while swinging unless they have T3.

I actually don't mind how it functions at the moment EXCEPT for the ridiculously long cooldown that stops you from switching away from it.

I don't mind a cool down between shots for the sake of fairness, but if it stops you from switching weapons, thats probably too much.

Lightning: The range for the line-based Lightning is a bit too long when you consider its knockdown effect.

Your Probably right. Its kinda of our mods Uber force power. THere are special defenses to it though through absorb (which reverses whos getting shocked XD) and with a saber.

Lathain Valtiel
12-08-2006, 10:12 PM
The bowcaster is currently better against both gunners and sabers though, due to its high fire rate. Right now that fire rate is justified since blaster and pistol both stink badly...

razorace
12-09-2006, 05:57 AM
Since the thread titles also mentions server commentary, I have a server related question. How many maps of the same gametype should be played in a row?

I've noticed (and have been informed by my server admins) that the best server configs should have multiple maps of the same gametype in a row. How many maps should we have in a row of the same gametype before we switch gametypes?

UDM
12-09-2006, 08:31 AM
I'd say 8 of FFA and as many co-op maps as possible. IMHO they should run on a short timelimit, so that the gametype cycle is fast. FFA is only fun for so long before it gets boring. Co-op is the new way of JKA!

Btw would it be a good idea to include the JK2 maps as part of OJP? Or is that copyright infringement? Reason is because I play FFA on the JK2 duel maps a LOT, which are by far much better than JKA's due to their size and majesty. Esp with the new experience system, there's no need to run around picking up ammo. It's a fragger's dream come true. Pure fragaholic fun. We could use JK2's maps in Meatgrinder...?

Plus, JK2's FFA maps and CTF maps are great too.

Lathain Valtiel
12-09-2006, 04:53 PM
The JK2 maps are already on the server.

The problem is that NO ONE DOWNLOADS THEM!

Maxstate
12-09-2006, 05:47 PM
The JK2 maps are already on the server.

The problem is that NO ONE DOWNLOADS THEM!
He's talking about the REAL SP JKO maps.

Lathain Valtiel
12-09-2006, 07:38 PM
Errr... he talked about JK2's Duel, FFA, and CTF maps. He didn't say anything about its SP maps.

The JK2 multiplayer maps are on the Meatgrinder.

Sushi_CW
12-09-2006, 07:42 PM
My thoughts after playing today on a server stuffed with players:

1. This is insanely fun. :)

2. Once a gunner has rockets, flame, a jetpack, and full absorb, it's insanely hard to kill him as a pure Jedi. Your force powers are just plain useless because of the Absorb. If you do get into saber range he flies away. If you try to keep your distance and deflect his shots back at him he comes just close enough to toast you with a flamethrower.

3. Level 3 Absorb is probably too powerful as a passive power. It's a real bargain: for something that take 12 Skill points and no FP when used, you get full protection from all force powers out there.

Lathain Valtiel
12-09-2006, 08:20 PM
It's no one's fault but your own if you choose to be a pure Jedi. Further, that last thing can be countered by Speed, I've been diced up enough by that. It's not a problem with gunners being overpowered, it's a problem of Saber Throw and so on not being implemented yet, as the easy answer to most of those besides Speed is 'Saber Throw'. Implement Throw before you do anything else, because frankly if Sushi refuses to adapt from pure Jedi it's his own problem... after all, gunners with Absorb are impure Jedi.

As is, I agree that passive Absorb should cost more. I'm against requiring it to be activated, though. Just either make it cost more or simply make it drain some FP if you absorb.

razorace
12-09-2006, 10:30 PM
3. Level 3 Absorb is probably too powerful as a passive power. It's a real bargain: for something that take 12 Skill points and no FP when used, you get full protection from all force powers out there.
I thought it still used up some DP or FP to block Force powers. hmmm...

Maxstate
12-10-2006, 05:48 AM
It's no one's fault but your own if you choose to be a pure Jedi. Further, that last thing can be countered by Speed, I've been diced up enough by that. It's not a problem with gunners being overpowered, it's a problem of Saber Throw and so on not being implemented yet, as the easy answer to most of those besides Speed is 'Saber Throw'. Implement Throw before you do anything else, because frankly if Sushi refuses to adapt from pure Jedi it's his own problem... after all, gunners with Absorb are impure Jedi.

As is, I agree that passive Absorb should cost more. I'm against requiring it to be activated, though. Just either make it cost more or simply make it drain some FP if you absorb.

If a player WANTS to be a Jedi in the open JEDI project, he can be one. And if he stays true to his path and doesn't use any gunner gadgets or trinkets he's bound to get some kind of reward for doing so.

Lathain Valtiel
12-10-2006, 10:13 AM
He already gets a reward... the reward is not needing to spend the skill points on those gadgets and dedicating his points solely to Force, which is quite dangerous if evoked properly. He'd probably start with a heap of shielding too after awhile. He shouldn't get some bonus for sticking solely to the right side of the skill screen, unless sticking entirely to the left side of the skill screen got you something too.

What you said isn't really an argument against my point. Adaptation is everything, even Obi-Wan pulled a blaster when the situation called for it. So what, should he have lost some mystical Jedi power for using an OMG GUNNER WEAPON? No, I don't think so either.

Maxstate
12-10-2006, 10:51 AM
He already gets a reward... the reward is not needing to spend the skill points on those gadgets and dedicating his points solely to Force, which is quite dangerous if evoked properly. He'd probably start with a heap of shielding too after awhile. He shouldn't get some bonus for sticking solely to the right side of the skill screen, unless sticking entirely to the left side of the skill screen got you something too.
I want both skilltrees to get equal chance and equal rewards for sticking to their side of the screen. A gunner shouldn't be able to take lightning 3 and not face some kind of penalty. A jedi shouldn't be able to take thermals and detpacks, or a sentry droid without having to face some kind of penalty too.


What you said isn't really an argument against my point. Adaptation is everything, even Obi-Wan pulled a blaster when the situation called for it. So what, should he have lost some mystical Jedi power for using an OMG GUNNER WEAPON? No, I don't think so either.
Obi Wan is Obi Wan, I'm talking about Jedi who want to stick to their beliefs and just use their own weapons and powers. If they can do this, they should get rewarded. Same thing for gunners.

Obi wan was also in a life threatening situation, OJP players aren't in a life threatening situation since they respawn.

JRHockney*
12-10-2006, 11:47 AM
I could shred your argument to pieces man, unlike you.

Easy there, Max. We don't want pick fights here with unneccessary comments. :blast5:

Maxstate
12-10-2006, 11:49 AM
Easy there, Max. We don't want pick fights here with unneccessary comments. :blast5:

Okay, just for you then :p

razorace
12-10-2006, 04:22 PM
I tend to agree with Lath on this one. Having cross-profession penalties would be hard to code and, well, penaltize realistic New Hope+ era characters.

UDM
12-10-2006, 04:41 PM
Yes I agree, simply put, a cross class should never be as powerful as a pure class because he opts for quantity (of weapons and tools) over quality

Let's say I choose to be a merc-Jedi with the following skills in a server with min. 100FP:

- Flamethrower = 8 pts
- Jetpack = 8 pts
- Rocket Launcher lvl 2 = 16 pts
- Cloaking Device = 8 pts
- Bowcaster lvl 2 = 16 pts
- Saber Attack lvl 2 = 16 pts
- Saber Defence lvl 3 = 24 pts
- Force See lvl 1 = 4 pts
TOTAL: 100 pts!!!

Sounds powerful? Not really. I can easily counter this with the following character (assuming Force Sense = Auto force push as I'd suggested):

- Force Sense lvl 3 = 12 points
- Saber Attack lvl 3 = 12 pts
- Saber Defence lvl 3 = 12 pts
- Force Pull lvl 3 = 12 pts
- Force Lightning lvl 3 = 24 pts
- Force Speed lvl 3 = 12 pts
TOTAL: 84 points!!!! That's 16 points less than our cross class. Now let me show you guys how I will beat the cross class.

First, I will turn on Force Sense so I know where he is (if he is onthe ground). If he's flying, well all I need to do is follow the flames. Then, I will just lightning him until his jetpack is out of power. Or if he's on the grounds, he will try to flame me and shoot me at the same time. No problem, just turn on speed, wait for his fuel to run down, then go forward, lightning him or just run up and saber him (but technically, this is impossible for me because my ping is always so damn high)

So you see, a crossed class will lose out eventually

(btw Saber Throw is pretty useless as is, because of the inability to return and inaccuracy. Any ideas on how to make it a more useful skill?)

Maxstate
12-10-2006, 05:24 PM
I tend to agree with Lath on this one. Having cross-profession penalties would be hard to code and, well, penaltize realistic New Hope+ era characters.
You all seriously want gunners running around with lightning 3, palpatine style?

That's just sick man...
This means that it's no longer the open jedi project. People will have no reason to just stick to the Force and their sabers. Everyone will be running around with detpacks and thermals and bowcasters and flamers and Jedi will just be able to stand there doing nothing.

Man that..just.. it will be friggin chaos! You seriously can't reward someone that sticks to Force and Lightsabers with something extra? Like some specific skill or something? New lightsaber styles? And you can't reward a pure gunner by giving him access to the rocket launcher and other gadgets? Why?

You want this to be a movie-realistic, realistic mod in general but still have some kind of "new hope+ era" feeling? Dudes, our Jedi aren't powerful enough to simulate Jedi from that time. Jedi from that time took on friggin armies of creatures and gunners and came out unscaved. Luke used AT MOST a pistol during his pilot years and afterwards he mainly used his saber and force powers. But the fact that he spent less or no time training his gunner skills, he had enough time to learn how to use Force Grip and to develop his powers even more. If he had sticked to guns and gadgets more he wouldn't of been a Jedi master, I can assure you that.

I know you're gonna bring up Kyle Katarn. And I can counter you immediately:
Kyle Katarn spent time without Force and without his lightsaber multiple times, and each time had to re-learn EVERYTHING he had learned before he put them away! Think about that!

It would be unfair to Jedi, and it's easy for someone like Lath to speak about this, Razor, he likes gunning and primarily uses it ingame. And I've noticed that you've been liking a lot of his ideas, I don't mind that, but lets not get carried away here. This is still a Jedi mod, you didn't spend so much time working on all these Jedi powers, re-making the sabersystem and balancing out so many things just to see it all thrown away?

I mean, if this goes on, I'll have no reason not to use a gun or flamer once I'm low in a duel for example. People that want to duel and not be disturbed by gunners will always have to go into dueling mode to be able to even duel RIGHT. ANd it's not just the dueling part that's gonna get screwed over.

UDM's example is still in the mindset of a very low playercount. He's thinking of 2 players.. if your ambition is to make this mod geared towards 2 player games then you seriously need to ask yourself why you've been spending so much time on this mod.

It won't work like that with a 10 or more man server. You won't be able to track and kill a gunner without getting shot by another. No problem, but I wouldn't like that gunner to be able to buy lightning 3, push 3, jump 3 or absorb 3 and counter everything I have in my arsenal easily.

How are Jedi supposed to kill gunners if they can absorb all Force powers?
Do you guys even KNOW what a seasoned gunner does when a jedi comes close? He just whips out his saber and defends against the Jedi's slashes, flies away and just whips out his rocket launcher again and starts shooting..

Is that what you want? That's just a load of bull and I can't believe you want it that way.

razorace
12-10-2006, 06:33 PM
I just don't see it being a problem. Such high level crossover as you're suggesting would indicate that the player would be very high level anyway, so they'd be a killing machine anyway. If they're high level, I don't see any problem with allowing them to specialize merc or jedi or something in between.

Secondly, just because we don't always take your advice doesn't mean it's not an open project. :|

UDM
12-10-2006, 08:14 PM
Max: when you are involved in a huge gang fight eg. 4 players and above, you normally concentrate on ONE person alone anyway. In which case, it's still a 1 on 1 situation. In fact, when playing Quake or any other shooter games for that matter, no one in the right mind will try to strike an enemy and when he fails to kill him, he'll then go for another one. You're just opening yourself to more attacks.

And Razor has a point. If a merc can be as powerful as you describe, then why can't the pure Jedi (assuming we've got more force powers and skills)? lol

Besides, we can "penalize" cross characters by adjusting skill points cost.

Maxstate
12-11-2006, 04:06 AM
I just don't see it being a problem. Such high level crossover as you're suggesting would indicate that the player would be very high level anyway, so they'd be a killing machine anyway.
Where did I suggest HIGH LEVEL crossovers? Luke and Kyle?
Luke couldn't friggin hold his own against the GHOST of a sith lord, let alone defeat one in the movies. Kyle had to re-learn the same thing over and over again 3 times before it finally sticked to him.
If they're high level, I don't see any problem with allowing them to specialize merc or jedi or something in between.
Well you certainly aren't seeing a problem with allowing them to specialize in something in between, but you are seeing a problem with letting them specialize in the other two.

Secondly, just because we don't always take your advice doesn't mean it's not an open project. :|
I must've not made myself clear enough, the emphasis goes on the JEDI in the OPEN JEDI PROJECT.



Max: when you are involved in a huge gang fight eg. 4 players and above, you normally concentrate on ONE person alone anyway. In which case, it's still a 1 on 1 situation. In fact, when playing Quake or any other shooter games for that matter, no one in the right mind will try to strike an enemy and when he fails to kill him, he'll then go for another one. You're just opening yourself to more attacks.
If someone happens to get out of my reach I'm not gonna say: "Oh, he's gone, I'm gonna sit down now.." ESPECIALLY not in a mod like OJP, where it doesn't matter if you die or live because ZING ZING respawn instantly!.


And Razor has a point. If a merc can be as powerful as you describe, then why can't the pure Jedi (assuming we've got more force powers and skills)? lol

I am the only one that read that he doesn't want to give Jedi any more credit and doesn't want them to be more powerful? How do you think Jedi should be more powerful when the gunner or crossclass can take everything the Jedi can take and more? Seriously?

Besides, we can "penalize" cross characters by adjusting skill points cost.

I don't agree with this but whatever.

Lathain Valtiel
12-11-2006, 04:09 AM
What?

I'm easily the most frequent gun user we have so far who plays this mod with the exception of Jawa Bond. But guess what? I DON'T ACT IN ANY WAY MAX DESCRIBES, AND NEITHER DOES BOND! In about the ten-plus games I've played I've never once pulled out a lightsaber, and the two or so games I saw Bond he didn't do it either. My config is as follows:

- Rocket Launcher 3
- Bowcaster 3
- Flamethrower
- Seeker Drone
- Sentry Gun
- Cloaking Device (Is there a glitch with this? My holstered gun doesn't go invisible...)

- Force Seeing 1
- Force Absorb 3

Total points...

24 + 4 + 8 + 6 + 5 + 8 + 4 + 12 = 71 points.

Really the only big 'what the' is Absorb. It's a tad too powerful as it is because I don't notice it draining much of anything.

And actually, Jump 3 stinks. I don't use it. I don't use Jetpack either. I also don't use push, pull, or lightning 3 except as impulse buys for defense (they do block enemy uses of those powers, no?).

And frankly... so WHAT if you have to go into dueling mode? That's what it's there for! You can't reasonably expect an enemy to just watch and let you finish your duel when he can just kill you both when distracted.

It's BS for you to quote Luke and say 'If he hadn't focused on his powers solely he wouldn't be a Jedi Master', and then say my Obi-Wan example doesn't work, BECAUSE THEY ARE THE SAME KIND OF EXAMPLE. I could just as easily say: "Luke is Luke, and he took awhile to develop his powers. I don't suppose you want us to take that long to develop Force ability?" We don't fight 'armies of creatures' either.c I already said that by choosing not to take gun skills you can spend points on Force skills, this is obvious and that's really the reward.

Obi-Wan didn't suddenly lose some power over the Force for pulling out a gun when the situation called for it, and he's the guy who gives the 'lightsaber only' mantra to Luke. As for Kyle Katarn, that's an 'intentional' extinguishing of his powers for fear of the Dark Side, the suppression was so great he had to actually go to the Valley of the Jedi and step into its core to regain them (where's the multiple power loss? I only see that he lost his powers after MOTS due to the suppression, and got them back in JO.). He didn't instantly lose gun skills then and there though, now did he? With all that in mind, your comment on Katarn does not work as he was a special case in all facets.

EDIT: As for your comments to UDM... no, you don't sit down. You pull out a long range weapon and you smite the retreating bastard from afar? Don't have one? Whoops, that's your fault.

Maxstate
12-11-2006, 04:39 AM
What?

I'm easily the most frequent gun user we have so far who plays this mod with the exception of Jawa Bond. But guess what? I DON'T ACT IN ANY WAY MAX DESCRIBES, AND NEITHER DOES BOND! In about the ten-plus games I've played I've never once pulled out a lightsaber, and the two or so games I saw Bond he didn't do it either. My config is as follows:
I said "gunner" not "Jedi. You fight dirty but not that dirty, I agree. But this is what gunners do, and have done in my experience of fighting them.



And actually, Jump 3 stinks. I don't use it. I don't use Jetpack either. I also don't use push, pull, or lightning 3 except as impulse buys for defense (they do block enemy uses of those powers, no?).

The point isn't if you use it, the point is that it will be used and that it will make Jet fuel obsolete. Since you can for example use all of your jetfuel on a target, jump away or stay in the air as long as needed and then just finish them off with the regenerated jet fuel. There's tonnes of strategies that can be used with Jump 3 and I have seen them being used.

I know for a fact that I've RECENTLY (within the last 2 months) had more human to human OJP than anyone else here, I've seen strategies and
Force powers as well as gadgets being used in ways that you wouldn't expect.
This is what I'm talking about, I'm not talking about what Lathain did, I'm talking about what generic gunner/cross class #x can do.

I'm not opposed to crossclasses having force powers if they are given to them in moderation. Gunners can actually CHOOSE if they want to use their FP or not in a fight. In essence they don't need it, FP is a Jedi thing, and there was a fatigue threshold added at 10FP to stop Jedi from spazzing and running and jumping too much. Gunners won't have this problem as they can switch between Jet fuel and Jump 3 indefinetly to escape ANY kind of fight they want. Pure Jedi don't have this commodity, but this should not be a problem if this mod was as Movie realistic as Razor originally intended it to be.

I lately don't even know what he intended it to be, the perequisites for an idea to get in kept changing weekly, sometimes daily ":|".



And frankly... so WHAT if you have to go into dueling mode? That's what it's there for! You can't reasonably expect an enemy to just watch and let you finish your duel when he can just kill you both when distracted.

Going into dueling mode is like having one hand chopped off and getting told to go row a boat. You can't use Force powers, you have a distance handicap, you glow like a mofo, and most of all, anyone can wait untill your duel ends to quickly backstab you blow you up.

It's not fair that Jedi should be forced into duel mode to have a duel, if so, gunners should be forced in gun fight mode to have a gun fight.


It's BS for you to quote Luke and say 'If he hadn't focused on his powers solely he wouldn't be a Jedi Master', and then say my Obi-Wan example doesn't work, BECAUSE THEY ARE THE SAME KIND OF EXAMPLE. I could just as easily say: "Luke is Luke, and he took awhile to develop his powers. I don't suppose you want us to take that long to develop Force ability?" We don't fight 'armies of creatures' either.c I already said that by choosing not to take gun skills you can spend points on Force skills, this is obvious and that's really the reward.

I was using the "training in something" analogy to explain how our points work, as that seems to be the general consensus among the players I play with each or each other day. I said hordes and armies of creatures because that's what the deal was in the movies, and as I remember, a lot of ideas from people didn't get through to OJP because they weren't movie-realistic enough, which leads me to believe that OJP wants to be a movie-realistic mod. In the movies, Jedi did do this, and yes they were known in using a BLASTER RIFLE OR PISTOL, but not detpacks, thermals, rocket launchers, flamethrowers, sentry droids or jetpacks. If they want too, that's fine, but all that time learning how to use something like that properly is going to keep them away from "Jedi Training", so they can train either of their "sides" but if they train one, the other will deteriorate, atrophy or if they're lucky, just not move.

The reward is having every path that is chosen, be it gunner or Jedi have some kind of benefit over the other.
Now I don't have a problem with cross classes, but they shouldn't GET that benefit, they shouldn't be the abundant type or path in OJP, and they shouldn't be sparked to choose that path either.

If they do, no problem, though in moderation.

Now I'm starting to see what you mean by high level... well...
Say I buy a bowcaster and a jetpack, I'll take another clip for the bowcaster.
That comes down to what, 11 points? And on the Beta server people start with 20 or 25, right? So as a "cross class" I can immediately buy one if not TWO LEVELS of force lightning!

If I ditch the jetpack I can buy all three levels AND have a bowcaster to finish someone off. Now I know you're gonna think Jedi will be able to defend against it and overcome the low level gunner, but that's a load of crock.

Another strategy I saw being used for anti-jedi killing was a gunner just casting lightning 3 whenever the jedi wanted to slash. And since the Jedi only has 63 DP, draining his DP is going to be very easy. And it can only become easier later on once you get more points.



Obi-Wan didn't suddenly lose some power over the Force for pulling out a gun when the situation called for it,
Where did I say he did? He pulled out a gun for a few seconds, I'm talking about people taking big guns. Big guns that require training and explanation to use in the starwars world, big guns that you can't just pickup and do something with.
The training time required to learn how to use these guns is a part of the skill buying process, but it should also further emulate the "time spent" by not allowing the person that did spend time learning how to use a gun, spend time as easy learning how to use Force or a lightsaber. It's logical.


and he's the guy who gives the 'lightsaber only' mantra to Luke.

No, he just says that he doesn't like the use of "crude" weapons such as blasters and prefers the more elegant lightsaber. You could interpret what he said in many different ways. As I've said before, Jedi using typical small arms like an e-11 or a pistol is fine by me, they're not at all that powerful, but why?
They're JEDI, unless in some predicament they lose their goddamn LIGHTSABER somewhere and can't get it back, I don't see the need for that.
But if they still want to do it, fine by me, light arms is okay. But if they want to start using rocket launchers and explosives and all that jazz, they're gonna have to sacrifice something.


As for Kyle Katarn, that's an 'intentional' extinguishing of his powers for fear of the Dark Side, the suppression was so great he had to actually go to the Valley of the Jedi and step into its core to regain them (where's the multiple power loss? I only see that he lost his powers after MOTS due to the suppression, and got them back in JO.)
I'll get back to you on that, dates long back.


He didn't instantly lose gun skills then and there though, now did he? With all that in mind, your comment on Katarn does not work as he was a special case in all facets.
What in JO? Ofcourse not, he was a trained mercenary, the whole POINT of him getting his powers back was that he DIDN'T SPEND the time necessary (as even Luke said in the cutscenes) to train them , but instead took the easy way out and just got them handed to him. And since he was a Jedi before this, he only needed a crash course in the basic powers to be able to use them again like he was supposed too.

Tokakeke
12-11-2006, 05:15 AM
I fully agree with Max on this. While I don't feel my opinion has much weight here, as I've been away for some time, "gunners should be gunners, not forcewhoring Palpatine wannabes with a blaster rifle". There is no reason for gunners to be able to run around with full force powers and a bunch of heavy explosives. If OJP wants to move away from base and become its own mod, it needs to lay down some ground rules.

The "lol, get everything" force power mechanic used in base was bad enough, but it was based primarily on two things:

1. the game was a Q3 engine game, using Q3 type deathmatch scenarios. Deathmatches are fast paced games where you can run around picking up weapons and not have to worry too much about realism or canonicity.

2. Nobody wanted to have to specialize too much. It's a matter of retail. Kid sees guy with saber on box, sees guy wielding bowcaster on back. Expects this from SP, expects this from MP. Kid buys game, kid plays game, kid doesn't return game to store or write angry letters to devs about how they were only able to play as Joe Bob Jedi or Generic Gus Gunner. This plagued MB and killed its Full Authentic mode - everyone wants to be uber guy with all force and seventyhundred different kinds of rocket propelling firearms, while everyone else has a blaster pistol and 10 hp.

Imagine you're watching Episode 3, and all these clones are coming in on the Temple or something, and some Jedi walks up, pulls a rocket launcher off his back and blows up an entire squad. Not only would you think "wow, this is a really ****ty movie", you'd think, "wow, between solving interplanetary conflict and chopping up hundreds of battle droids, when did that guy learn to precisely aim, lock, and fire a sophisticated 15lb piece of heavy explosives"?

Feel free to rip this apart, but I just want to present my opinion on this.

razorace
12-11-2006, 06:29 AM
From what I've been reading, the issues seem to come down to problems with certain skill combinations being "too powerful" vs an actual problem with cross skill taking. Namely, I've seen...
1. Jetpack + Jump 3
If I'm not mistaken, FP doesn't regen while in midair. As such, a gunner isn't going to be able to regen their Jump without being on the ground without running for some period of time.
2. Gunner + Lightning 3
Lightning 3 is VERY expensive, it's literally the most expensive skill with a total cost of 24, which is more than a player even starts with. In addition, I suspect that the main issue for some people is that lightning is currently an instant knockdown skill, which when comboed with a gun allows players to shot their victims dead on the ground. If that's the case, we could probably a nature level of knockdown protection to lightning based on the player's DP or maybe FP level. I'm open to suggestions.

Maxstate
12-11-2006, 06:31 AM
From what I've been reading, the issues seem to come down to problems with certain skill combinations being "too powerful" vs an actual problem with cross skill taking. Namely, I've seen...
1. Jetpack + Jump 3
If I'm not mistaken, FP doesn't regen while in midair. As such, a gunner isn't going to be able to regen their Jump without being on the ground without running for some period of time.
They can fly somewhere safe away from a jedi, meditate and regain everything, then fly away again untill they aren't full.
Plus, there's no better evading maneuver than the backflip.


2. Gunner + Lightning 3
Lightning 3 is VERY expensive, it's literally the most expensive skill with a total cost of 24, which is more than a player even starts with. In addition, I suspect that the main issue for some people is that lightning is currently an instant knockdown skill, which when comboed with a gun allows players to shot their victims dead on the ground. If that's the case, we could probably a nature level of knockdown protection to lightning based on the player's DP or maybe FP level. I'm open to suggestions.
Gunner + lightning isn't just wrong because it's overpowered, it's wrong on so many other levels. Like realism, balance, fun factor, movie realism and much more. Bah I don't want to explain anymore.

Lathain Valtiel
12-11-2006, 06:40 AM
Sigh... how boring. But nevertheless...

Max:

1: You said:

Do you guys even KNOW what a seasoned gunner does when a jedi comes close? He just whips out his saber and defends against the Jedi's slashes, flies away and just whips out his rocket launcher again and starts shooting..

And that is wrong simply because it is a generalization rigged in your favor. In fact it would be stupid and a waste of points in the current climate when instead the gunner could instead do what I do, namely dance away from your strikes and combination seeker droid+bowcaster+charbroil(+ optional sentry gun) you to death. Jawa Bond's strategy of raining death from above with his jetpack blaster rifle, bowcaster, and rocket launcher is also effective (and easily counterable from the start because by his own admission he does not use absorb). Do not lump gun users into one category.

2: Congratulations on finally making a legitimate point. Being able to use Jump 3 in combination with the Jetpack to render fuel concerns moot is rightly insane (despite the 24 minimum point cost), something needs to be nerfed here. I would recommend halting Jetpack fuel restoration while jumping is being done.

Kindly explain the fatigue threshold for me if you would, because restricting Jedi movement is not something that should be done lightly.

3: Well, that's what happens when you choose to operate in a mode called "FREE FOR ALL". You will excuse some of us for taking the name literally. We've had this discussion before.

Lastly, anyone who waits more than a few seconds for your duel to end is crazy (he could be off gaining more points), but for his dedication he SHOULD be able to blast you after you're done.

Honestly, here you're asking for your cake and wanting to eat it too. You can't reasonably call for movie realism when in fact it would be realistic for somebody with a heavy weapon to be able to joltingly disrupt your lightsaber battle. Such battles require intense concentration, and indeed in such situations an outside force has an advantage if he chooses to intervene. It's unfortunate, BUT IT IS REALISTIC. Your recourse is the saber challenge. If you want, why don't you simply ask Razor to remove the Force Power restrictions on it? Why WOULDN'T he do it?

4: The benefit is entirely in your hands by how you choose to spend your points.

Almost all of what you listed is HORRIFICALLY EXPENSIVE, thermals, rocket launchers, detpacks among them. A sentry droid isn't hard to use as far as I can tell. The other two may simply require point adjustment.

Actually, a level of Force Lightning requires a mighty 8 points, quite respectable, and ditching the pack nets you exactly one more level at two. But a Jedi CAN counter that: Force Absorb, Force Push, Force Pull (bye bowcaster!), or even his own Force Lightning (he can't fire when knocked down)... I like the idea that activating it results in Lightning damaging whoever used it myself...

However, I do think that Saber abilities are a bit too expensive and recommend lowering all of their costs to 3.

5: It already does this by making big guns significantly more expensive than Neutral and Light Force counterparts, namely Lightning and Grip. Fully mastering the Rocket Launcher costs exactly the same now as fully mastering the saber, for example.

What you're asking for is a difficult feat of coding from what I can tell. The closest thing to it is Promod, in which daring to take a certain level of gun skill, of ANY gun skill, started locking out any and all ability to gain higher levels of all Force. But that's child's play compared to what you want. The logistics of it would be annoying as sin.

6: They sacrifice points that could've been used for other powers. Seems simple enough.

7: The point here is that Kyle DID have it all. So really, this line of argument is not helping you.

----

It seems obvious to me that a big wan with you guys is the ability to use Lightning in conjunction with heavy weaponry. In that case, we could simply suppress Lightning's use when those weapons are out. *Shrug*

Maxstate
12-11-2006, 07:01 AM
Sigh... how boring. But nevertheless...

Max:

1: You said:



And that is wrong simply because it is a generalization rigged in your favor. In fact it would be stupid and a waste of points in the current climate when instead the gunner could instead do what I do, namely dance away from your strikes and combination seeker droid+bowcaster+charbroil(+ optional sentry gun) you to death. Jawa Bond's strategy of raining death from above with his jetpack blaster rifle, bowcaster, and rocket launcher is also effective (and easily counterable from the start because by his own admission he does not use absorb). Do not lump gun users into one category.
1: How is this in any case relevant? I'm talking from experience with playing with people on the Euro server. I've seen all kinds of exploits and I'm just naming them here, and I'm saying what CAN and WILL happen once people figure this out.


2: Congratulations on finally making a legitimate point. Being able to use Jump 3 in combination with the Jetpack to render fuel concerns moot is rightly insane (despite the 24 minimum point cost), something needs to be nerfed here. I would recommend halting Jetpack fuel restoration while jumping is being done.
2: Yeah thanks, I'm keeping my congratulations card in my pocket still untill you can do the same thing. And how about they just don't get access to jump 3, and get Jump 2 instead? Leave the high level force powers to the Jedi who deserve them.

Kindly explain the fatigue threshold for me if you would, because restricting Jedi movement is not something that should be done lightly.

Once a Jedi's FP reaches 10 or below it you start moving and attacking really slowly to simulate fatigue. Gunners don't have this problem. They can for example use lightning 3 to 10-15 FP and then finish someone off with a rocket everytime they want to kill someone and have no reprecussions for doing so.


3: Well, that's what happens when you choose to operate in a mode called "FREE FOR ALL". You will excuse some of us for taking the name literally. We've had this discussion before.
But then I can take your argument and say that if it's free for all, then Jedi are also free to fight other Jedi and be left alone.
Score-whoring is the last thing I want to see in OJP.

Lastly, anyone who waits more than a few seconds for your duel to end is crazy (he could be off gaining more points), but for his dedication he SHOULD be able to blast you after you're done.
He MIGHT, and COULD, but not SHOULD.


Honestly, here you're asking for your cake and wanting to eat it too. You can't reasonably call for movie realism when in fact it would be realistic for somebody with a heavy weapon to be able to joltingly disrupt your lightsaber battle. Such battles require intense concentration, and indeed in such situations an outside force has an advantage if he chooses to intervene. It's unfortunate, BUT IT IS REALISTIC. Your recourse is the saber challenge. If you want, why don't you simply ask Razor to remove the Force Power restrictions on it? Why WOULDN'T he do it?
I'm not a big believer in movie realism and I've never tried to make that point really clear (I kinda lost belief in that when certain things were added). Ace is the one that likes movie-realism but also wants to keep it an FFA inspired mod that has nothing to do with realism or movie realism.
The force restriction is just ONE aspect of dueling mode. Noone wants to have to go into dueling mode just to have a 2 minute undisturbed duel. You want me to take out the dueling card on this? Every time someone in the movies dueled there were no gunners present, or the gunners took a different way or went somewhere else. Think Ep1 when they met Dath Maul in the hanger.

4: The benefit is entirely in your hands by how you choose to spend your points.
No, because if a Jedi wants to STAY a Jedi and nothing else, they are severely limited in power and choice, and that's what bothers me.


Almost all of what you listed is HORRIFICALLY EXPENSIVE, thermals, rocket launchers, detpacks among them. A sentry droid isn't hard to use as far as I can tell. The other two may simply require point adjustment.
A thermal or a detpack is 8 points as far as I recall and it drains a Jedi's full DP meter to the point where a pistol is enough to finish him off. That's not expensive.


Actually, a level of Force Lightning requires a mighty 8 points, quite respectable, and ditching the pack nets you exactly one more level at two. But a Jedi CAN counter that: Force Absorb, Force Push, Force Pull (bye bowcaster!), or even his own Force Lightning (he can't fire when knocked down)... I like the idea that activating it results in Lightning damaging whoever used it myself...
A JEDI CAN'T COUNTER IT because if he is assaulted by lightning he will still block it and it will still drain his DP! Pull doesn't work that way either anymore.

However, I do think that Saber abilities are a bit too expensive and recommend lowering all of their costs to 3.
LOL what's the use of even having Jedi then?


5: It already does this by making big guns significantly more expensive than Neutral and Light Force counterparts, namely Lightning and Grip. Fully mastering the Rocket Launcher costs exactly the same now as fully mastering the saber, for example. No it doesn't, mastering the rocket launcher costs 8 points. You don't master anything beyond the point you buy it, you just get an extra shot.


What you're asking for is a difficult feat of coding from what I can tell. The closest thing to it is Promod, in which daring to take a certain level of gun skill, of ANY gun skill, started locking out any and all ability to gain higher levels of all Force. But that's child's play compared to what you want. The logistics of it would be annoying as sin.
Then try something more simple, I'm not TELLING or limiting anyone to anything, I'm giving out suggestions which is the exact thing that these boards are for.


6: They sacrifice points that could've been used for other powers. Seems simple enough.
If they want one, they can have it, but they can't have the other. If they want both, they can have a simple level of both but not high levels of both.
Unless they're in the higher skill ranges.


7: The point here is that Kyle DID have it all. So really, this line of argument is not helping you.
No, the point is that Kyle didn't spend time training anything. He just got his powers handed back to him without having to train for anything.
I don't think that's movie realistic or realistic at all, which is what I think (or thought..) Ace was going for.

----

It seems obvious to me that a big wan with you guys is the ability to use Lightning in conjunction with heavy weaponry. In that case, we could simply suppress Lightning's use when those weapons are out. *Shrug*
I wouldn't be really content with that, but I guess I don't have any other options seeing as how you all want it this way.

Sushi_CW
12-11-2006, 11:07 PM
Eep. Lots of long passionate posts.

I have no problem with Jedi and gunners cross-classing. The only problem I have is when certain power/gun combinations become virtually invincible to Jedi. Namely, jetpack + jump 3 + rockets + flame + absorb 3. The Jedi can't use lightning, push, or pull because of absorb, the gunner can always get away with either the jetpack or jump, the gunner can deal damage to the jedi with the flamethrower without any way for the jedi to defend against it except keeping his distance, and if the Jedi is at a distance, the gunner can spam him with rockets.

IMO, the biggest problem in that mix is the cheap passive immunity from all varieties of force powers with Absorb 3.

JRHockney*
12-12-2006, 02:14 AM
I don't have too much trouble with gunners having lightning 3. Jedi can just use absorb and reverse who gets shocked when they try it for the most part.

IMO, the biggest problem in that mix is the cheap passive immunity from all varieties of force powers with Absorb 3

yeah that might be a little too much trouble. I've always been a bit nervous about making Absorb passive and this is way. I still think that people holding a gun should only get level 1 protection from whatever forcepower they have or are blocking (which means they have to walk to block force powers they have)

We're trying to create a "build your own character form of gameplay here so we need to be careful about what we limit and what we don't. We just need to make sure that all powers, items, and weapons reasonable counters to them and that there are no unbeatable combinations.

And lets not get overly passionate about this stuff or this is just going to end up being and unconstructive flame war.

Lathain Valtiel
12-12-2006, 03:16 AM
Ugh, no more walking than we already have please. It's slow enough as it is.

Doctor Shaft
12-12-2006, 09:02 PM
Alright, after having played around for a while, I'll add my two coppers here. All of htis is based on the settings we have with Meatgrinder. If things are non-issue because experience point rewards would be higher, etc., then disregard what I have to say.

Firstly, I think we're getting too caught up in a "Combinations" war. While there are some combinations that are posing problems for us, the issue is not the combination itself so much as the powers and weapons at hand.

I think the biggest issue that we have to resolve for this current version is three fold: Force Power variety, countering abilities, and Ability Costs.

Force Power variety is first. Simply put, we're sorely needing it. We've regressed to a system that involves too much on Jedi using knockdowns to get hits with the lightsaber. I'm all for knockdowns being used constantly, but it's currently ALL we have. As far as I'm concerned, why waste points on lightning when I can do just as well with some level of push and pull? Jedi are currently one trick ponies in the Force department. We need variety, badly. I know we're still sorting out what powers there should be available, and a lot of hte ideas I provided were outlandish in terms of implementing and using. But I've seen some nice, simple ideas lately. We need to get around to implementing them, and giving Jedi something more than "Knockdown/slash". It's great... but it's not good enough.


The next issue we have is with countering abilities. This is closely related with ability costs. Currently, the cost to get access to certain abilities, in order to counter other abilities, is a bit skewed. If I want to counter a rocket launcher, I need access to Force Push, or Pull. Or I need a jetpack to keep safe. Something. On a low experience point server, this becomes a problem. I don't get easy access. Countering being knocked down requires at least a level of Force Jump. Again... with other essentials, like having a lightsaber, that is a bit expensive and slow to get to.

In a higher point game, I'd still say that the cost to counter abilities is either too high, or too rigid. Want to counter lightning? You MUST build yourself in a certain manner. Want to avoid rockets? Must have certain abilities ready. I don't mind that this is so, but I think we need to tweak costs a bit to reflect this.

Lightning gets cursed because the methods of countering it require to stringent a set of abilities. Costs need to be adjusted. Perhaps lightning needs to cost a great deal more. I'm not sure.


Costs and variety are our two biggest problems, as far as I can tell. That's what we should be focusing on next, outside of tweaking saber combat (I'll post in that other thread... JR Hockney is on to something as far as I'm concerned).

We currently have a system that involves this:

-Saber combat
-Abilities that knock you down
-Abilities that let you fly
-One ability to negate force powers

Other powers are currently suspect or non-issue. Sense... eh. Speed... eh. Grip... I'm still trying to figure out what it's purpose is. I'm trying to be creative... but it's not really working.

So that's it. I don't think it's really the combinations that are the problem, as much as it is how much things cost, and what variety is available. In a game where knockdowns are predominant, then of course we're going to see some combinations that are irksome because they take advantage of delivering knockdowns and countering them all at the same time.

If Jedi had access to different abilities, then they may not be as frustrated with Gunners that have "Push" abilities or other mobility. If we focus on powers that aren't necessarily beneficial to getting range and firing guns, then Jedi wouldn't be so pressed in the "trying to be pure" department.

Otherwise, the game seems fine to me. Being a Jedi requires craftiness, which is what I like. I don't want to get special bonuses for not using guns. I do, however, want costs to be adjusted so that if I don't spend points on guns, I can still afford a combination of abilities that is unique enough to allow me to get around.

Gunners are at a good power level right now. They can kill quickly. The blaster is non-existent, but that bowcaster is awesome. The rocket launcher is irksome at times, and I wonder sometimes if the splash damage is affecting the shooter as much as it's affecting everyone else. The flamethrower is a cool weapon, and I think it's been implemented nicely. Gunners don't need to be nerfed.

Jedi, on the other hand, do not need a power boost either. They simply need a small adjustment on some costs, along with variety. Variety simply meaning abilities other than "Push that guy to the ground" or rather, abilities that have an affect on the battlefield that goes beyond point and shoot. The weakness here is that using a sword and having a push ability is great, but we need powers to augment our sword, since that's our killing tool.

Heal, Protect, Mind Trick, Rage, Drain, Sense, and Speed need to do something here. Speed going fast isn't really helping right now. Sense is... a wall hack that sees little use outside of that. WE have five other things. We really need to pull together and focus on that list of powers. And start trying stuff out.

Just like gunners needed some gadgets... Jedi need gadgets right now. Not a power boost. Not restricted access. Gadgets.

Lathain Valtiel
12-12-2006, 09:08 PM
Speed could be useful to cut down gunners that don't use Jetpack. I've been offed by guys using it rather consistently, about 50% of the time.

Grip IS basically freaking useless though.

I have an idea.

How about we have Lv. 2 and 3 of Sense be counted as a sort of 'minor precognition' passive ability, allowing the Jedi to expend less DP to avoid attacks than normal, namely by a percentage? For Lv. 2, 5% reduction in DP costs, and for Lv. 3, 10% reduction.

We also need to see the return of Mind Trick, as a weighed power of course. Lv. 1 Sense only counters up to Lv. 1 Mind Trick and so on. It would also be AWESOME if it could be made so that if you Mind Trick somebody, attack, and successfully hit, it counts as a 'surprise attack' that costs more DP to evade.

JRHockney*
12-12-2006, 09:33 PM
Speed could be useful to cut down gunners that don't use Jetpack. I've been offed by guys using it rather consistently, about 50% of the time.

Grip IS basically freaking useless though.

I have an idea.

How about we have Lv. 2 and 3 of Sense be counted as a sort of 'minor precognition' passive ability, allowing the Jedi to expend less DP to avoid attacks than normal, namely by a percentage? For Lv. 2, 5% reduction in DP costs, and for Lv. 3, 10% reduction.

We also need to see the return of Mind Trick, as a weighed power of course. Lv. 1 Sense only counters up to Lv. 1 Mind Trick and so on. It would also be AWESOME if it could be made so that if you Mind Trick somebody, attack, and successfully hit, it counts as a 'surprise attack' that costs more DP to evade.

I kind of like these ideas. Especialy that mind trick one. I want to see that back in.

Lathain Valtiel
12-12-2006, 11:30 PM
For the Mind Trick idea, I was also thinking you could give a special advantage with the saber due to melee requirements.

IE, if you Lv. 3 Mind Trick somebody and hit them with a lightsaber at Lv. 3 Saber Attack, they should be one of two things: dead or out of DP.

Here's the idea: You surprise hit at Lv. 2 Mind Trick, your attack costs 50% more DP to evade than normal. For Lv. 3, up that to 100% more DP, doubling it.

This applies unless you use your saber. Then those values are double to a cost of 3x the DP and 4x the DP. I'd hope that 4x DP is basically, if not instant death, close to it. It should be instant death to any gunner who gets caught probably.

razorace
12-13-2006, 01:12 AM
It's an interesting idea but I don't see a counter for gunners. People could just use it all the time without penalty.

Lathain Valtiel
12-13-2006, 07:56 AM
A relatively high FP cost should negate that, besides, guns already get a lower bonus. Besides, do you have a better idea? There needs to be more Force Powers. You can't really compensate much for the nature of a long range weapon without intentionally nerfing them. There's a reason so few people fight with swords anymore.

Honestly, there should not be some inane 'gunner vs. Jedi' debate, because such a side is imaginary, seeing as how there isn't a restriction except on what you buy.

Maxstate
12-13-2006, 09:03 AM
A relatively high FP cost should negate that, besides, guns already get a lower bonus. Besides, do you have a better idea? There needs to be more Force Powers. You can't really compensate much for the nature of a long range weapon without intentionally nerfing them. There's a reason so few people fight with swords anymore.

Honestly, there should not be some inane 'gunner vs. Jedi' debate, because such a side is imaginary, seeing as how there isn't a restriction except on what you buy.

This is your opinion, ofcourse.

Then there's people like me who would like to give equal opportunities to all builds and not just the ones that buy everything.

JRHockney*
12-13-2006, 08:58 PM
It's an interesting idea but I don't see a counter for gunners. People could just use it all the time without penalty.

Well, the high FP cost would be one thing, and gunners could just use seeing right? Hmm. or if they dont like force powers, maybe a radar!

razorace
12-13-2006, 10:42 PM
I don't know. It just seems too unrealistic and abusable.

I mean, I can completely understand that Jedi probably have some ability to sneak thru the use of mind tricks. However, I'm not sure that can translate to full visibility in a combat situation.

JRHockney*
12-13-2006, 11:04 PM
I don't know. It just seems too unrealistic and abusable.

I mean, I can completely understand that Jedi probably have some ability to sneak thru the use of mind tricks. However, I'm not sure that can translate to full visibility in a combat situation.

It will be fine. Jedi can't use their saber to block anything while in mind trick so gunners can shoot or flame in random directions and probably hit them if they see them do a mind trick. Gunners use rocket on jedi from behind all the ime and end up racking up alot of kills, so this might help even things up a bit. Besides, this is Laths idea, and he's a straight gunner. If he thinks it will be balanced, it will probably be balanced.

I do have a possible, seemily more movie realistic idea for this though. If the gunner looks directly at the jedi (meaning the jedi's in the crosshares), they become visable. for this it might be better for the gunner not to hear the footsteps either.

UDM
12-14-2006, 03:36 AM
I think Lath's idea is good, but I'm not so sure about the "look straight through crosshair and invisible jedi becomes visible" thing. Too complicated, and players will scream for Mind Trick to be improved upon

Lathain Valtiel
12-14-2006, 05:38 AM
Er... yeah, the answer here is Seeing. If you want to be immune, buy it and keep it on. Really that's all you need. Also, you just can't SEE them. It should be possible to hear their footsteps or the hum of their saber.

I mean if they walk in the Hangar Room of Tatoonie FFA, they should leave footprints, etc etc.

Lathain Valtiel
12-14-2006, 05:08 PM
Okay, CLEARLY, CLEARLY the Jetpack is way, way too good. Observe the following points:

1: It provides over four seconds of constant airtime.

2: It is powered by flamer fuel, which regenerates at a decent clip (as it should but still, wait)

3: It costs 8 points.

4: Stays on if you're knocked down while using it, lifting you to relative safety.

Compare this to Lv. 3 Jump:

1: To acquire Lv. 3, spend a total of 16 points.

2: Provides about two seconds of airtime, and not even very high airtime.

3: Takes up far more precious Force Points.

Inevitable and Undisputable Conclusion: Jetpack is vastly overpowered. It should not let you fly around that long.

Recommendation: Double (if not more) the fuel consumption rate.

----

Further... the Seeker Droid stinks. Why?

1: Only inflicts 5-10 damage a shot. If it hits.

2: There is an annoying bug with it. If it gets the kill, the caption will say: "killed by Seeker Droid', and the player who summoned it doesn't get the kill.

razorace
12-14-2006, 05:37 PM
Maybe we should make it so that getting Pull/Pushed while in the jetpack turns it off unless you take two ranks in jetpack? Along those lines, we could add two ranks to jetpack, which would affect fuel useage and the effect of push/pull/lightning on those users.

-----

Add ticket for the kill issue, and we'll look into it.

Lathain Valtiel
12-14-2006, 05:40 PM
Then what happens if you pack Absorb? Or your attack gets autopushed?

You should definitely raise fuel consumption anyway IMO. It's just too much. Being able to hang on the cieling for several seconds is bleh.

razorace
12-14-2006, 05:58 PM
If you packed absorb, then you've spent a lot of points on absorb. ;)

Lathain Valtiel
12-14-2006, 06:00 PM
Heh.

I'm hoping Absorb remains passive, just toned down some.

Also, I added the Seeker ticket, with a little addition:

In the inventory it's Seeker DRONE. Everywhere else, it's Droid. May want to rename.

razorace
12-14-2006, 06:13 PM
Toned down how? It's pretty simplistic now. Without losing effectiveness, the only thing I could probably do would be to increase the point cost.

Sushi_CW
12-15-2006, 12:06 AM
I'm in favor of that. Considering that it gives you a "buy and forget" immunity to every force power, it should be more expensive than 4 points a level. I say make it 8 a level. :)

Lathain Valtiel
12-15-2006, 12:07 AM
Absorb doesn't grant complete immunity though. I've been Lightninged to death while having it at Lv. 3, so it has some kind of limit. I just don't know the limit.

Maxstate
12-15-2006, 03:47 AM
As I recall:
You're vulnerable at low DP, while jumping and if you get caught in the back with a force power.

Sushi_CW
12-15-2006, 03:16 PM
I think right now it's only low DP, isn't it? I know I've tried L3 pull on people running and jumping away from me and seen it get absorbed.

razorace
12-15-2006, 03:40 PM
It depends on their level of skills in the associated powers, but they will be vulnerable if they're in the Heavy Slowbounce range in MP.

JRHockney*
12-15-2006, 06:39 PM
It depends on their level of skills in the associated powers, but they will be vulnerable if they're in the Heavy Slowbounce range in MP.

If you talkng about with saber as well, thats yet another reason not to use the disarm conversion! :firemad:

Anyways, after fighting Jawa bond last night and watching him become almost unbeatable with his Jump 3/flamethrower combo with all force power protection against jedi, I'm starting to think we should come up with more counter powers or situations against gunners or anyone with falmethrower. Any ideas?

Lathain Valtiel
12-15-2006, 07:10 PM
...How did he combo flamethrower and Jump 3? It should miss in the middle of it unless there's something you're not telling us.

Regardless, Absorb should drain some FP, frankly.

JRHockney*
12-15-2006, 07:33 PM
...How did he combo flamethrower and Jump 3? It should miss in the middle of it unless there's something you're not telling us.

Regardless, Absorb should drain some FP, frankly.

Not sure. He must have binded it or something. Any ideas razor?

UDM
12-15-2006, 07:39 PM
If there are no crossed classes, all we need to do is just lightning those flaming bastards to death

razorace
12-15-2006, 08:01 PM
Not sure. He must have binded it or something. Any ideas razor?
It's not hard to do, just use the flamethrower item and jump at the same time.

Lathain Valtiel
12-15-2006, 08:58 PM
I meant wouldn't it start missing as you got higher?

Doctor Shaft
12-15-2006, 09:18 PM
...How did he combo flamethrower and Jump 3? It should miss in the middle of it unless there's something you're not telling us.

Regardless, Absorb should drain some FP, frankly.


Agreed on this point. Absorb is too much of a free pass still.


I take back what I said earlier about point values. Turns out, I've been playing with the old point values from Version P, when everyone else is playing with r. So... I was playing with twice the score costs. No wonder I thought it was too hefty. The current scoring system seems just fine.



Still, we definitely need a Force System overhaul. Or at least I think we do. We need to solidify how Push and Pull will work. In my opinion, everything is still too "two-demensional". We have a Mishap Bar and a Dodge Point Bar that seem to have lots of involvement in a Force-Sensitive saber battle, but no relevance (except when blocking lightning) in any Force Dueling.

Maybe we should change that?

Also, Force Powers needed. But I've been whining about that and doing nothing for a while now.

UDM
12-18-2006, 08:45 PM
I think at level 3, the proportion of FP loss should be smaller but with less of a difference than that of level 2, as compared to level 2 with level 1

For example, let's say enemy uses force lightning. At level 3, force absorb only eats up 6FP per second. At level 2, force absorb eats up 10FP per second. At level 1, force absorb eats up 16FP. Without force absorb, you suffer 22 points of damage per second.

Notice the difference per level?

Level 1 difference compared to level 0: 8 points
Level 2 difference compared to level 1: 6 points
Level 3 with level 2: 4 points

As such, it doesn't encourage players to ALWAYS shoot for Force Absorb level 3. However, it still does, in some ways, there are still incentives to shift up to Force Absorb level 3 if you want the ultimate protection. There's no perfection in this world, but if you want the closest to it, you gotta pay a higher price or accept the fact that there are no other alternatives

JRHockney*
12-18-2006, 09:08 PM
Its a miracle!!! The forums work!!

Agreed on this point. Absorb is too much of a free pass still.

Yes it is and something needs to be done about it. Since deflect doesnt really work at the moment (must be fixed or changed), jedis end up with virtually no effective offense except for normal slashing and speed, both of which are easy to predict after a few uses. I still prefer the MB2 why of doing it by by making gunners walk to avoid force powers (and make an easy why to catch up when they run away), but its clear that not everyone will like that and we probably should do it differently anyways for originality sake. How about making it so that your protection is range based with absorb, level 3 being like almost point blank range for usage?

Doctor Shaft
12-18-2006, 11:24 PM
Well, I don't think we should adopt any "crouch or walk to avoid Force Powers" rules. I always hated that. MB2 had a good system in terms of balance, but I don't find it very fun in regards to the walking thing (and I mean no insult there).

In other words, I don't like watching an opponent laugh off my Force Push because they're walking. Does the Jedi get to laugh off guns because he's walking? Not really.

On that note, I'm liking this idea that Absorb become more of a "Drain your FP for protection" system. Remember, the original Absorb wasn't all that great because even though you were immune to Force Powers, getting hit by something would still stun you. So a gunner with absorb, while he wasn't getting pushed, was still pausing at some point. In OJP, even that brief pause is gone, which is fine. It's just completely disallowed the ability to catch up to someone.

As it stands, we have the "Can't counter Force Powers from Behind" rule. But Absorb, for a mere 8 point investment, cancels most of that handicap out. So we need a definite change in that area.
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And on that same note, there's a few other changes that I think need to be considered for serious modification.


1.) Jetpacks

As of version r, I'm a bit displeased with the Jetpack. Here's what I think the problem with it is. It's not the amount of points it costs. It's not the availability. It's the mobility. As of right now, the Jetpack allows too much movement. Changing the cost of it will never change this.

I've never been a guy to shirk the ability to fly, but there are certain limitations to the JO/JA game engine in terms of the fighting animations that makes flying too powerful. Against other guns, the jetpacks is no big deal. Just point and shoot. No problem. But against lightsabers, flying becomes too difficult to counter. It's not so much that the jetpack moves too fast, or flies too high, as much as it is that the lightsaber animation are simply not designed for "chasing" people. It's good for dueling. It's average at ground combat against an evasive opponent. It's absolutely horrid at anything involving a character going verticle.

Note that a common strategy to avoid getting chopped in half when defensive measures are gone is to bunny hop around. Bunny hopping will always be a good defense against a great many things in games, but when using a gun, bunny hopping is usually a last ditch effort to save some seconds of life. Against a lightsaber, and with Force Absorb, it's much more effective. Add in a jetpack, and you've got a nightmare of "chase the bunny hopper with your really heavy wiffle bat."

There is no "quick stab" animation for the saber. No instant hit swing. A gun laser pops right out. A lightsaber always takes a half second or so to get the full swing, and a brief delay to "point" or select the swing you want. Nothing we do will change this.

In lieu of all this, the jetpack needs to be seriously toned down. I don't like the fact that you can levitate around often with it. Fuel regeneration is too high. In addition, it seems to lack that "movie" feel to it. Jango Fett and Boba Fett were not known for cruising around in the air multiple times, for many seconds at a time.


I think the jetpack should have the ability to let opponents fly very high, away from Jedi and other opponents. It should be superior, in some aspects, to Force Jump. Forget trying to match height potential there. But right now, Jetpacks can be used more frequently than Force Jump, and for less "cost". In addition, it takes you to higher places. There's practically no need for Force Jump in that case, and when combined, you have the ultimate lightsaber deterrent. Remember... lightsabers suck at chasing flying opponents. There's just no decent swing animation to hit that kind of stuff. None.

I think the jetpack should be something that gives gunners 1-3 seconds of flight potential. When they use that jetpack, they better have a real destination in mind, and a plan of action. As it stands, they mostly use it as a "well, I charged in with my gun and he's getting too close, so I'll fly around a little." It should give a quick boost, but not allow too much mobility, or change of direction. As it stands now, it seems like you can move around freely, with out much "physics." Correct me if I'm wrong in that regard, I haven't used the jetpack too much.

So I'm not calling for its removal. I'm not calling for a cost increase. I am asking that it's fuel reserve be drastically reduced, and it's usage be cut down.


In Promod, the jetpack fuel regenerated quickly. BUT, that jetpack had less mobility and "levitation" potential than OJP's jetpack. That was the deciding factor. You couldn't just fly. If you wanted to go high, you usually need to jump up and go straight up. You could not go foward, then decide to fly high, go around in a circle, and maybe shoot down. Force powers also affected it. Still, Promod's jetpack wasn't perfect either, and had it's annoying quirks too. OJP doesn't need to rip the jetpack apart. Just limit the mobility aspect. Or, if we like how it moves, cut that jetpack fuel WAYYY down. Reduce it to short bursts for emergency evacuation. Not constant movement.


2.) Mishap Bar

I feel the Mishap Bar is still seriously underepresented and underused. I like it. I like the idea behind it. But it doesn't factor into any aspect of my gameplay. Even in duels, I hardly pay attention to my mishap bar, even when fighting a defensive opponent that has gotten good at raising an opponents mishap. Even in one fight, my mishap was at 90% for a good portion of the fight. I was disarmed only once. And that was... random. That disarm didn't really affect me. I recalled the saber, had plenty of DP left, and just restarted. My FP was way down... but so was his. We recovered and started anew. I eventually switched to a faster stance and rushed down for a lucky win. All the work he had put into blocking my shots didn't really pay off.

We should seriously entertain just raising the mishap threshold. Let's get more consequences in there. Battles right now are fast. DP costs are just right, in my opinion, and need no serious change. But the Mishap meter is something we should consider playing around with for a bit. Perhaps, if there is to be any difference in styles, the Mishap Meter is where it's at. Allowing for better opportunities to get slow bounces, disarms, and the like.

I know it would be annoying if people were disarmed every five seconds. But if someone is able to block effectively and raise mishap, why not reward them? Also, there's rarely an opportunity to see mishap go high enough to allow for a quick chance to use the Force and blow the opponent back.


3.) OJP system and Gunners

One thing that's come to my attention while playing is how gunners fit into the OJP world. I like the new guns. I like the gun speeds. I love rockets. I like jetpacks. I like flamethrowers, and all the rest. The thing I don't like, however, is how Gunners fit into the OJP "Physics".

Before, a Jedi had incredible abilities via OJP's system. They could "dodge" virtually anything. They could meditate to quickly regain Force ability. Lighting would stun and knockdown opponents. The list goes on. But everything was tied down, or held in check, by the FP/DP/MP system. If you used your Force too much, it even slowed you down. You became ineffective and had to take a brief cooldown. Without DP, your saber dueling was no long much use. You coudln't even block guns. Again, while powerful, the Jedi had to "cooldown" for a moment. With MP, a Jedi could potentially be disarmed, or some other foul accident. Lately, that MP hasn't seen much use, but when it does happen, it's not pleasant. This prevented a Jedi from swinging too much, or moving indiscriminately.

Gunners currently don't have any of that going on for them. Their reliance on the DP/FP/MP system is minimal at best, and almost always beneficial to them, in fact.

FP? Not necessary. In fact, it just helps curb their bunny hopping. If they run out, the jetpack is available. Since they aren't using a lightsaber, FP's absence isn't sorely missed, and usually is quickly regenerated.

MP? Not a factor.

DP? Just ensures that a Jedi, when he gets a hit in, isn't going to necessarily win. With enough DP, we have situations where that one or two hits the Jedi lands don't kill. Those one or two hits may be the only ones a Jedi typically lands. In addition, having DP isn't critical. The gunner keeps distance and shoots people. It is not dependent on having enough DP to consider going in for something.


I'll grant that a gunner can't really be entirely tied down to this system, but I propose that we consider what's going on make some changes. Perhaps DP costs should be doubled when not having a lightsaber out to defend against lightsaber swings? Perhaps there should be some sort of Mishap occurence for missed shots, running while shooting, or having shots deflected back?

Either way, a gunner not being tied down by the three tier system creates a certain advantage. Maybe it's not as "big" as I'd like to think, and perhaps if the jetpack was toned down, none this would really matter. But I thought it was worth considering for a bit.

Sushi_CW
12-19-2006, 12:47 AM
Well said.

As far as the mishap bar goes in saber combat, I agree that it is currently a bit random. I find it works best for me to ignore it almost completely, and focus simply on DP, parrying, and combos.

There's been talk of adding a recoil/accuracy system for guns. That could add a mishap-factor for gun use. If mishap is supposed to be balance, it makes sense that firing a gun will increase your mishap.

I think we should modify gunning so that normal shots from blasters, pistols, etc. do more damage, but spamming the shots results in recoil that increases MP and decreases accuracy. If MP gets too high, the gunner would be vulnerable to force. Crouching/standing would keep mishap from increasing too much, shooting while in the air would increase it by a lot. The type of weapon being fired would also make a big difference. A pistol wouldn't take away too much balance, but a rocket would probably unbalance you enough so that after each shot, your mishap is high enough that you're vulnerable to force for a second or two.

JRHockney*
12-19-2006, 02:40 AM
On that note, I'm liking this idea that Absorb become more of a "Drain your FP for protection" system. Remember, the original Absorb wasn't all that great because even though you were immune to Force Powers, getting hit by something would still stun you. So a gunner with absorb, while he wasn't getting pushed, was still pausing at some point. In OJP, even that brief pause is gone, which is fine. It's just completely disallowed the ability to catch up to someone.

Yeah I forgot about that brief pause. We should probably have that back in some way since gunners can run away too easily from normal jedi. I'm not sure if that "drain your fp for protection" idea is really enough though since gunners can just block it for a few FP cost and then burninate you like they do now in hardly enough time to drain any more of their FP.

As it stands, we have the "Can't counter Force Powers from Behind" rule. But Absorb, for a mere 8 point investment, cancels most of that handicap out. So we need a definite change in that area.

If thats true, then yeah we probably should.

As of version r, I'm a bit displeased with the Jetpack. Here's what I think the problem with it is. It's not the amount of points it costs. It's not the availability. It's the mobility. As of right now, the Jetpack allows too much movement. Changing the cost of it will never change this.

Yeah I think we have plans on nerfing its abilities a bit in the next one.

I feel the Mishap Bar is still seriously underepresented and underused. I like it. I like the idea behind it. But it doesn't factor into any aspect of my gameplay. Even in duels, I hardly pay attention to my mishap bar, even when fighting a defensive opponent that has gotten good at raising an opponents mishap. Even in one fight, my mishap was at 90% for a good portion of the fight. I was disarmed only once. And that was... random. That disarm didn't really affect me. I recalled the saber, had plenty of DP left, and just restarted. My FP was way down... but so was his. We recovered and started anew. I eventually switched to a faster stance and rushed down for a lucky win. All the work he had put into blocking my shots didn't really pay off.

Um, actually I've found that it does have quite an effect on the outcome of a fight especially when you start with lower DP. I've even noticed a trend towards defense lately and they are pretty successful at doing damage. A knockdown from a mishap bar maxout can litterally cost you a fight. We've also changed it so that it only goes halfway down after maxout and that seem s to have helped. The disarm I agree doesnt happen that often and is not even that big of a deal. Razor's planning on increasing the range at which heavyslowbounces happen in the mishap bar and I think will also increase the amount of time it will take to get back you saber for disarm conversions on the heavybounce (I'm also pushing for force vulnerability too in that disarm too since its hard to do).

I'll grant that a gunner can't really be entirely tied down to this system, but I propose that we consider what's going on make some changes. Perhaps DP costs should be doubled when not having a lightsaber out to defend against lightsaber swings? Perhaps there should be some sort of Mishap occurence for missed shots, running while shooting, or having shots deflected back?

I would probably agree with increasing the lightsaber damage to a gunner. He should only be able to dodge once or maybe twice at full DP. At the moment, he can dodge at least twice at lower DP.

About those mishap ideas, I dont see how missed shots causing mishap increase makes in logical sense (since its more of a balance bar), but running while shooting and getting hit with deflected shots (once we fix deflect) makes a little more sense.

The question is, what should the effects of high mishap be for gunners? I like some of Sushi's ideas here. The normal mishap maxout doesnt really make a whole lot of sense for a gunner aside from maybe the stumble (i.e. he wouldnt just drop his gun or get knock on his a**). Maybe force vulnerability and slower movement should be the effects and not shooting or walking and shooting would allow the mishap bar to go down? This would have to be especially true with flamethrower. Also agree with Sushi that the DP cost to block even the lower guns should be higher if these ideas are done.

Overall, pure jedi are getting almost completely owned by high point gunners. I saw 3 pure jedi (two of which were vets) lose a team death match to two gunners buy a score of like 20 to 10! There's something wrong there, and worth alot more investigation. Lathain, Dr shaft and Max (and anyone I'm missing) have shown alot of the reasons why this is. I don't buy any excuse that its these pure jedis chosen setup that that causes them to lose and that's fair. The very idea that pure jedi can get completely owned by hybrid gunners of practically any skill level is about as unmovierealistic as you can get. While I'm glad we've been striving for more balance, this is an embarressment for what use to be a more jedi oriented mod.

Doctor Shaft
12-19-2006, 02:41 AM
Well said.

As far as the mishap bar goes in saber combat, I agree that it is currently a bit random. I find it works best for me to ignore it almost completely, and focus simply on DP, parrying, and combos.

There's been talk of adding a recoil/accuracy system for guns. That could add a mishap-factor for gun use. If mishap is supposed to be balance, it makes sense that firing a gun will increase your mishap.

I think we should modify gunning so that normal shots from blasters, pistols, etc. do more damage, but spamming the shots results in recoil that increases MP and decreases accuracy. If MP gets too high, the gunner would be vulnerable to force. Crouching/standing would keep mishap from increasing too much, shooting while in the air would increase it by a lot. The type of weapon being fired would also make a big difference. A pistol wouldn't take away too much balance, but a rocket would probably unbalance you enough so that after each shot, your mishap is high enough that you're vulnerable to force for a second or two.

Hm, an interesting idea. If the gunner stays focused, their vunerability is low to the Force, and their shots are well aimed. If they try to do all of that AND fly away, AND aim, then they are seriously vulnerable. If they want to attack from the air, it may require a variety of weapons, like pistols, instead of just investing in a rocket launcher.

Could be a good idea.

I'd envision the Mishap bar as a "balance" meter as well. It would determine what can be done, and provide a certain level of risk. If you swing your saber too predictably during an offensive, you build up mishap and find yourself disarmed. If you shoot your gun indiscriminately, while running too and fro, you find yourself disadvantaged. In each situation, you can still perform the action, but not without consequence.

But programming that... yeah, I have no ability to do that, and couldn't tell how difficult that would be to implement.

Maxstate
12-19-2006, 04:31 AM
*starts applauding Sushi, Shaft and Hocks*

Well said guys, I'll leave my teen angst filled post out of this since you guys can clearly do it on a much more mature scale :p

Post scriptum:
Funny though that most of these troubles could've been solved by adding some of the ideas I mentioned like 2 months ago. Take gunners for example, instead of upping mishap, they could've gotten reloads or overheating guns in the form of the mishap bar.

The jetpack is another example, look up my posts on it and you'll see that I suggested it to be a burst jetpack like intended by Lucas. 15 times 3 second bursts is what boba's was, as I recall.

Meh, you borked it, you fix it :toilet1:

madcatmach2
12-19-2006, 02:39 PM
sweat the forums are working again well in my opinion the mishap meter works fine and dose have an effect in a saber battle for instance iv landed the instant death saber brake move when they had a high mishap meater a couple of times

well at home i have a whole thing saved about my ideas about jetpack and flame thrower ill post it later when im home

also on the topic of the whole pure gunners/jedi maby we could take a note from the origional jedi knight game for example if ur a pure gunner u have to have some gunner skill so it opens up some of the other guns that an experenced marksman would know how to use like the syper rifle and for the jedi we can do what they did in jedi knight

in jedi knight if u put atleast 1 point in every side of the force u were playing as good/evil it would give u a specil powerfull power if u were good it gave u force protect which in this was much more powerfull and worked as a portabull shield makeing u temperary imune to all except lightsaber or my favoret if u were evil u got the power Deadly Sight which was when it was on all the enamys would levitate in the air hepless and were being dissoloved alive for just looking at them so a mik of choke and lighting thru sight?

point being it could be an awsome power for fleeing gunners thru running or jetpacking away

madcatmach2
12-19-2006, 03:30 PM
heres what i typed a few days ago after bing on the server with a few people

Anyways, after fighting Jawa bond last night and watching him become almost unbeatable with his Jump 3/flamethrower combo with all force power protection against jedi, I'm starting to think we should come up with more counter powers or situations against gunners or anyone with falmethrower. Any ideas?

I compleatele agree after playing with u guys for a while we lurned that flame was an unblockabul lightning that didnt hinder ur saber fighting at all since it doesn't drain force so there needs to be a way to counter it ur atleast bring back heal so the jedi can heal himself after hes been flamed but still that would drain his force leaving him slowed while the oponit is free to drain flamethower without any penalty in short people are not buying lighting and just buying flamethrower and saveing points

and there really needs to be a penalty on it like as u use it it starts to hurt u cus after all you are igniteing a very flamibull substance on ur arm the heat could hurt you idk set your clowthing on fire and maby if they overuse it to much the liquids explode insted of igniteing severly hurting you, say the flame fallowed the liquid inside the fule canister igniteing it all at once and explodeing. you well thats my thauts

Lathain Valtiel
12-20-2006, 03:48 AM
Shaft is utterly correct on how the Jetpack should be implemented. Listen to that man. Take his words as gospel, because that is how it should be done.

Low duration, fast regeneration.

JRHockney*
12-20-2006, 10:15 PM
Shaft is utterly correct on how the Jetpack should be implemented. Listen to that man. Take his words as gospel, because that is how it should be done.

Low duration, fast regeneration.

Agreed, but I'm a bit more interested in what you think about the force vulnerability for gunner ideas above that involve the mishap/balance meter since you primarily a gunner. Do these ideas seem balanced enough?

Lathain Valtiel
12-21-2006, 08:50 PM
I'd have to see it implemented, but I don't think I like it if it results in slower footspeed or shots not going where you aim. It will be annoying as sin to handle when using a rapid-fire gun, especially considering that all of the rapid-fire functions do not work against Jedi unless you burn a couple dozen shots on them, if secondary fire Bowcaster is any indication.

But force vulnerability is a definite no. The current system will work fine after Absorb is tweaked some. Gunners are already vulnerable to Force without the appropriate powers. Increasing their vulnerability is not a grand idea.

razorace
12-21-2006, 11:14 PM
I kind of like the idea of having the gunner's accuracy linked to their MP and then have MP go up for gunner related behavior.

JackBaldy
12-22-2006, 12:05 AM
As long as the saber system isn't altered much... Go ahead and do what you want to gunners (_)/

JRHockney*
12-22-2006, 12:40 AM
But force vulnerability is a definite no. The current system will work fine after Absorb is tweaked some. Gunners are already vulnerable to Force without the appropriate powers. Increasing their vulnerability is not a grand idea.

It would have to be one heck of a big tweak to make it more balanced once gunner get higher up in points. I mean pure jedi have little or no offense against those gunners aside from speed and slash, both of which gunners have several easy defenses against (shield, any level of force jump, jetpack, etc.). If absorb remains passive and force power used against it only drain the gunners force points, thats really not going to do too much good considering the jedi also lose force points and are in deep %*&# if they get below 10 FP. If that were to be done, force powers used against gunners would have to take an almost rediculous amount of absorbing gunners FP just to be even even close to balanced.

The mishap vulnerability makes sense to me because it will make normal guns useful again (since that idea would only really work if guns do more DP damage) and it would allow for a fair situation in which pure jedi have force power access to gunners who are spamming shots.

I do still think that bringing back the force block pauses is a good idea though. It would give pure jedis at least some chance to catch a running gunner.

I kind of like the idea of having the gunner's accuracy linked to their MP and then have MP go up for gunner related behavior.

Yeah it makes sense and its all in the gunners hands as to whether or not their accuracy diminishes, although, it wouldn't make much difference for flame thrower (which is the bigger problem for jedi). Since normal guns don't really do that much damage at the moment, it really wouldn't make that much difference unless their in a gun vs gun fight.

Lathain Valtiel
12-22-2006, 04:32 AM
*Shrug* That would be appropriate if and only if a rapid fire burst from a gun breaks a Jedi's saber defense in around 15-20 consecutive hits with each shot raising mishap by 1, assuming a max of 100. All of the rapid fire guns, meaning Bowcaster and presumably soon the Blaster Rifle, are blasters. I am not going to be amused if I score what should be 15 direct hits from the back or side to see them all blocked, while an ALREADY inaccurate weapon becomes even more inaccurate (example pertains to the idea of inherently inaccurate full auto blaster rifle).

Slower movement on top of that however is utterly intolerable (and I say that in general, gimping your movement for making an attack is a joke to me, I don't even approve of Jedi getting penalized in that manner).

As for offense against gunners... I would simply recommend a vaguely homing saber throw. If it misses... well, I hope you know how to hide for a second.

Maxstate
12-22-2006, 05:51 AM
Oh for god's sake, it's not the friggin gunner accuracy anyone is worried about. It's the combination Jump 3, Absorb 3 , flamer and Jetpack.

Someone really needs to get ingame with me and I'll show them the real problem.

Lathain Valtiel
12-22-2006, 06:46 AM
That combination will be rather quickly rendered ineffective after a couple of seconds if Absorb started draining FP when struck by Force Powers, and Jetpack was nerfed some.

JackBaldy
12-22-2006, 07:47 AM
Oh for god's sake, it's not the friggin gunner accuracy anyone is worried about. It's the combination Jump 3, Absorb 3 , flamer and Jetpack.

Someone really needs to get ingame with me and I'll show them the real problem.

Um Max where you been? I have been playing for quite a while now, why did you not try to join my server or Meatgrinder (I was first at Meatgrinder but then it crashed so I headed to my server along with someone else)? Well I am still playing =P

Maxstate
12-22-2006, 07:56 AM
I've been getting quite tired and frustrated from playing OJP with the current imbalances, surely with the thought that they could've been circumvented in the back of my head. I've been playing something else to keep my mind off things, practicing webdesign too, want to get a headstart on PHP.

JackBaldy
12-22-2006, 10:43 AM
I've been getting quite tired and frustrated from playing OJP with the current imbalances, surely with the thought that they could've been circumvented in the back of my head. I've been playing something else to keep my mind off things, practicing webdesign too, want to get a headstart on PHP.

Doh... sorry about, I see you joined but I fell asleep it would seem. I play clean though, but I can understand your frustrations. I just stick to the Jedi/Sith side, minus that one time I was trying to get bacta to work, but no luck on that =P I haven't experienced much of the imbalances myself because I have mostly been fighting bots or just saberists, and if they did try some messed up combos they were usually too below my skill that it did not matter :P Well hopefully I'll see you around sometime Max.

JRHockney*
12-22-2006, 07:26 PM
Doh... sorry about, I see you joined but I fell asleep it would seem. I play clean though, but I can understand your frustrations. I just stick to the Jedi/Sith side, minus that one time I was trying to get bacta to work, but no luck on that =P I haven't experienced much of the imbalances myself because I have mostly been fighting bots or just saberists, and if they did try some messed up combos they were usually too below my skill that it did not matter :P Well hopefully I'll see you around sometime Max.

Hehe, just wait till you fight a gunner whos been racking up points for a while :D Their so overpwered you'll be lucky to get half as many kills against a gunner as skilled as you are with jedi.

JackBaldy
12-23-2006, 09:47 AM
No one can match my skill! Just kidding... :P Hopefully this is fixed (certain combinations being overpowered), and I might be getting a new router which might end up making my server more stable when I have it up :D

UDM
12-26-2006, 08:26 AM
I just thought of something: why don't we just remove the current method of selecting skills, and just implement 3 classes - Jedi, Sith, Mercenary and Force Gunner, similar to how you can only use Light or Dark side in vanilla JKA MP. That way, we can have both pure Jedi, pure Merc or cross class, and we can actually input selective skills for each of the 3 classes without having to worry about how complicated it is to code cross-class penalties etc

As a template here's what I suggest

Jedi:
- All neutral force powers
- All light side powers
- All dark side powers (cost more)
- Saber Attack
- Saber Defense
- Saber Throw

Sith:
- same as above, except light side powers cost more

Merc:
- pure merc skills, no saber or force skills

Force Gunner:
- No flamethrower
- no force jump
- merc powers available will cost 2x more
- No saber skills available

Maxstate
12-26-2006, 08:28 AM
I just thought of something: why don't we just remove the current method of selecting skills, and just implement 3 classes - Jedi, Sith, Mercenary and Force Gunner, similar to how you can only use Light or Dark side in vanilla JKA MP. That way, we can have both pure Jedi, pure Merc or cross class, and we can actually input selective skills for each of the 3 classes without having to worry about how complicated it is to code cross-class penalties etc

As a template here's what I suggest

Jedi:
- All neutral force powers
- All light side powers
- All dark side powers (cost more)
- Saber Attack
- Saber Defense
- Saber Throw

Sith:
- same as above, except light side powers cost more

Merc:
- pure merc skills, no saber or force skills

Force Gunner:
- No flamethrower
- no force jump
- merc powers available will cost 2x more
- No saber skills available
You know I already suggested 3 systems like this..

JackBaldy
12-26-2006, 12:55 PM
The real question is this, did you put it into a nice secksy template? :P I like the idea, sounds good and makes it easier for balance.

Sushi_CW
12-26-2006, 01:31 PM
A system like that would work for balancing. No doubt there. :)

The problem, as I see it, isn't that noone believes a fixed-class system wouldn't be balanced. It's easy to see that it would be. But I think what RazorAce and the other devs are trying to accomplish is to get the system working so that players aren't restricted to classes, but the overall system is balanced anyway. I think that they're trying to make it so that gunners can combine rockets, flamethrower, and lightning 3... yet the overall system is still balanced. I believe it can work.

Obviously, this kind of dynamic balancing is much harder to do...but I don't think they should give up on it just yet. It's actually pretty close, IMO.

1. Guns need to be tweaked to do more DP damage vs Jedi (so you don't have to spam shots).

2. Mishap needs to matter for gunners. I think mishap penalties should be added for all of the guns, with the amount of penalty depending on the gun. I'll go ahead and present some specific ideas for this based on my own thoughts and what has been discussed previously:

Running should double the mishap cost for using guns. Crouching should halve it. Firing from midair should increase it by 3x or maybe 4x.
The mishap bar would decrease at a fairly quick rate, so that it can go from full to 0 in 7-8 seconds. The regen rate would be halved if the player is running or midair.
If the mishap bar is too high (85% or so?) the gunner's accuracy suffers. Also, the gunner would be vulnerable to force powers even if they are usually protected, just like Jedi at high mishap.
Different guns would have different base mishap costs. Basically, the bigger the gun, the higher the mishap cost it incurs. Pistols would have a tiny mishap cost, while the rocket launcher and the flamethrower would have a huge mishap cost.

Does anyone else see where I'm trying to go with this?

JackBaldy
12-26-2006, 01:37 PM
I think I would still have to go with UDM's idea because not only does it seem easier to balance, it also makes more sense logically speaking (To me anyways). Just my 2 cents.

Maxstate
12-26-2006, 03:49 PM
Look up some of my ideas and tell me what you think :thumbsup:

The only problem here is that Ace doesn't want to cut jedi any slack. He's against gunners staying gunners and Jedi staying Jedi as far as I can see.

The misconception that Jedi are still the dominant cla... build* is still pretty much the general consensus here untill someone shows the guys in charge what's really up, therefore I would strongly advise Sushi's ideas be taken into consideration.

I'm very pro when it comes to gunners actually having to worry about more than just ammo stats so they get more responsible in terms of all the powers they get. Lets face it, gunners only use Jetfuel and ammo, but, were it the fact that a gunner would use a force power, he would not be held back or damaged by it because the gunner does not rely on his Force power pool.

Were a gunner to use lightning 3 for example, they could fry their opponent to as much as their FP fatigue threshold would permit them too, and would then switch over to a gun, explosive or the flamethrower. Escaping in this situation is easy since they can use a jetpack and fly wherever they want during the whole round.

DP usage is self-explanatory; none.

Mishap then? Again nada! They don't have to worry about mishap either since they are not Jedi and are not focused as much as Jedi.

Why then , knowing this, do we not act like any sane developing team and use these facts against the gunners somehow? Why do we not clip the wings of gunners in terms of build freedom when they already have so much freedom?

Is full customization the reason, eh? I have no problem with that, as long as the pure classes - for the ones among us that don't know what that is: it means that the build stays true to one side and chooses only guns and gadgets or only Force powers and saber skills - actually get some kind of compensation for not using the opposite's side weaponry.

If this isn't the reason, then why don't we take a page out of Ace's book and follow the "movierealism" path... anyone else notice how this is immediately flushed down the toilet? I don't think I even have to start about movierealism, it is non-existant.

Okay. So afterwards, "movierealism" wasn't the main goal anymore, it changed to "realism". Yeah, just realism. What is realism? Are we supposed to imagine Jedi and Sith being real, and the StarWars universe being alive but with less science fiction?

Okay, lets assume so:

Jedi and Sith have been trained since childhood to use the Force and manipulate it at will. They've gone through rigorous physical and mental challenges, have spent years mastering a lightsaber style, and leaving their academy they are well able to destroy or create, manipulate in general the matter and minds around them.
They also wield a weapon that can cut through almost any type of matter with ease, and wield it with such grace and power that no enemy could stand and oppose them.

To top it off, they can actually look shallowly into the future.


versus

Mercenaries for hire, from the streets and other places that have gotten crash courses into handling blasters and the likes.

..I don't have to explain further why "realism" isn't really a main goal either anymore.

So what remains?

You tell me. I and numerous others have been posting about this since before Vruki lost his internets and noone even bothered to think about it before all these changes were implemented.
Gunners and hybrids are overpowered, and no simple damage nerf will widen the gap that was present between Jedi and Gunners.

--


However, I will explain how I think we should go about fixing this.

Firstly, the Jedi versus Jedi system - A.K.A the saber system - is excellent. With a few adjustments I think it will even top future Wii saber systems and then some.

Although such systems do not exist for anti gunner combat. There are no clear guidelines on how much damage something does, how you are supposed to attack, how powers react towards gunners or how you are supposed to use your saber against a gunner correctly.

(I'll begin from distant attacks and slowly work my way closer)

Firstly, the deflecting system needs a tune-up. We need to get DP and mishap more deeply and intuitively involved into deflecting blaster bolts back gunners.
I suggest this:

Saber Defense 0:
You are unable to deflect blaster bolts and dodge them instead.

Saber defense 1:
Ability to deflect shots in undetermined directions for as long as you have DP and as long as your mishap bar isn't full.
Once you run out of DP you dodge shots as normal and most likely die.
If your mishap bar goes fills up completely you also lose the ability to deflect and start making mistakes.

Your mishap will fill up by one line every 5 shots you deflect with your lightsaber.

Every third shot will be deflected untill you don't find some way to rest and recover your mishap.

Reflecting shots at the crosshair is only possible without mishap, so 5 shots and that's it.

(note that recovering mishap from blaster shots can be done while running, walking, standing still and meditating. Mishap will also go down faster in that order. Running should make your mishap go down by one every 4 seconds. Walking every 3, standing still every 2 and meditating every second, regardless of Saber Defense level.)


Saber defense 2:
DP as normal.

Mishap fills up by 1 with every 7 shots.
When your mishap bar fills up you take extra damage to dp damage by blaster bolts but do not lose the ability to deflect.

As long as your mishap is under half, you can reflect shots back at the crosshair.

Saber defense 3:
DP as normal.
Mishap goes up by one every 8 shots you take.

You can reflect shots back at the crosshair as long as you have under half mishap.

Reaching full mishap means more damage from shots.

Reflecting can only done while walking or standing still.



=========
----======
=========

That's for deflecting. On to short ranges:

When you attack someone and they shoot you, your attack is canceled out.
But in the next half second you can attack again, this needs to change.

If you slash and get shot, you have to return to ready stance before you can slash again. That is my feedback when it comes to this.

This will enable gunners to 'juggle' jedi infront of them, force their saber away from their bodies by forcing the jedi to deflect before they can slash again.

========
--======
========

Manual deflect is a favourite move of mine, but it's underused.
Why? Because it doesn't work. Hate to break it to you.

Ace and I have been brainstorming about what we could do with it to make it usable and working again. Personally I would suggest this:

The Jedi is required to have saber defense 3.
The Jedi must stand still.

Now, to manual deflect you will be required to power attack (attack fake) and hit the incoming bolt with it. This will take one mishap bar but it will send the bolt flying back to a random enemy (if only one enemy is present, it will go towards him).

The manual deflect will fail if the Jedi moves or jumps.

If anyone has any other ideas on how this should work, post them freely.


========
-=======
========

I solemnly believe that there is no or little balance present for gunner vs Jedi combat currently, but I also believe that if we combine our thoughts and work out some ideas that we can solve the imbalance easily.

My ideas are an example of how it should look, and naturally because they are my ideas I would love to see them ingame, but they're just ideas and suggestions for now, so please post your opinions, suggestions, comments and most of all, your own ideas.

JackBaldy
12-26-2006, 04:11 PM
I understand that you want to add in reflect/deflect and manual deflect, but I got kind of confused on where you stand with unlimited freedom for hybrid builds. I personally don't like it much (Unlimited freedom on hybrid builds that is), and I always preferred movie realism over many things. Right now I wouldn't mind if it got harder for a Jedi/Sith to kill a gunner up close. If your idea on gunner vs Jedi close combat accomplishes that, then I am all for it.

Maxstate
12-26-2006, 04:13 PM
I was referencing to the 'unlimited freedom of builds' or 'free customization' as a kind of jab in the direction of the people that made the system into what it is now.

And I hope these ideas will bring some change there too.

JackBaldy
12-26-2006, 04:14 PM
So you don't want unlimited freedom? And adding layers of depth to gunners as was done to the sabering system is always a good thing.

Maxstate
12-26-2006, 04:24 PM
So you don't want unlimited freedom? And adding layers of depth to gunners as was done to the sabering system is always a good thing.
If unlimited freedom is what we have now.. no, I don't want it.

And there was no 'depth' added to gunning.
The only depth they have now is the flamer which is an instant "I-win" button for them.

JackBaldy
12-26-2006, 05:12 PM
Don't your ideas somewhat add depth to gunners? That's what I originally meant.

Sushi_CW
12-26-2006, 06:17 PM
Calm down Max. :) This is, after all, a work in progress.

I like your idea that deflecting shots incurs some amount of mishap penalty.

I don't like the idea of using a power attack/attack fake to do a manual reflect: that's even harder than the current system (using the tap-fakes). I've used it successfully, as far as I'm concerned it DOES work.

I do agree that it would be nice if the manual deflect was automatically targeted, instead of having to aim carefully yourself.

Maxstate
12-26-2006, 06:46 PM
Manual deflect is supposed to deflect towards a random enemy in range right now in the current version and the 3 versions before it too.

That's why I said it doesn't work.

razorace
12-26-2006, 11:13 PM
Let's make this simple. I'm against a class system.

If that's all you guys want, you need to go play MB2 or FM3. I didn't put all that effort into a skills based system, which you guys wanted, just to change it again because you guys can't decide what you want. :(

I don't think you understand. Major development is basically OVER. I'm working at my new job and I simply don't have time to work on OJP anymore.

I'm not going to be competely overhauling systems anymore. I gave plenty of warning about this and if you guys squandered the time with stuff you didn't want, it's not my fault.

JackBaldy
12-27-2006, 01:38 AM
I'm not sure I ever suggested a system which as much freedom as it is now. Well I don't think I would have agreed to it, but it was probably while I was gone. Having all that freedom really leaves no room for movie realism. And of course, unbalanced hybrid classes. And I would play MB2, but this saber system is badass :p If you are going to leave in a system where this is unlimited freedom like it is now I suggest you think hard on how to balance these hybrid classes because some combinations are blatantly overpowered and just unrealistic too in a Star Wars sense. If there is no balance toward hybrid classes then some things will just fall apart (Or balance in general).

Quick question though, is there anyway to disable the left side of the skill screen? Like you can disable forcepowers and weapons by g_forcepowerdisable or g_weapondisable, what about those extra skills in the skill screen?

Maxstate
12-27-2006, 06:19 AM
I'm not sure I ever suggested a system which as much freedom as it is now. Well I don't think I would have agreed to it, but it was probably while I was gone. Having all that freedom really leaves no room for movie realism. And of course, unbalanced hybrid classes. And I would play MB2, but this saber system is badass :p If you are going to leave in a system where this is unlimited freedom like it is now I suggest you think hard on how to balance these hybrid classes because some combinations are blatantly overpowered and just unrealistic too in a Star Wars sense. If there is no balance toward hybrid classes then some things will just fall apart (Or balance in general).

Quick question though, is there anyway to disable the left side of the skill screen? Like you can disable forcepowers and weapons by g_forcepowerdisable or g_weapondisable, what about those extra skills in the skill screen?
@ Ace
I figured as much, well good luck then. I'll see what I can salvage through locking.

Jack, you were away for quite a while.

Your second question can be answered by looking through one of the text readmes, I think it might be the one on the admin system.

JRHockney*
12-27-2006, 08:40 AM
Guys, we do not need classes. As long as we can make pure jedi balanced against others, which I'm sure we can and maybe pure gunner balanced and every good combo has a force combo has a decent defense, they just arent needed. We made the choice for freedom because we knew that we didn't have time to do classes and make them balanced, as many of, or anywhere near as well done as othermods before razor retired, and this has not really been done before, so we when for uniqueness. If we still do work after razors official retirement, then yes maybe we'll have classes or psuedo classes. All we really have left before razors retire ment is bug fixing, balancing, a few tweaks to things, and definitely more forcepowers and weapons so people dont wonder why we cut so many normal options whe we didnt really need to.

UDM
12-27-2006, 08:57 AM
I may have gotten too caught up with trying to solve the problem of balancing that I've forgotten what we have right now. Sorry

On that note, I'm going to leave it to the community to think of ideas to balance. I'm not that good at this, and besides I'm also more interested in GUI-modding

JackBaldy
12-27-2006, 09:13 AM
@Max: I looked through every document and there is nothing in them to disable jet packs or any of the gunner skills which are not weapons (Weapons can be disabled by g_weapondisable like I said before, but there is no number or cvar that is listed in any of the documents that can remove the gunner skills such as flamethrower.). Anyone even know if this is possible...?

razorace
12-27-2006, 03:21 PM
I never added a cvar to disable the merc skills. Personally, I think the disable cvars screw up the balancing of skills. I suppose we could add one, what do you want to use it for?

JackBaldy
12-27-2006, 04:24 PM
Ah I see. Well I wanted to use it right now because some of the combinations are blatantly unbalanced. That and it would give us the choice to have a Jedi/Sith only server.

Maxstate
12-27-2006, 06:46 PM
Ah I see. Well I wanted to use it right now because some of the combinations are blatantly unbalanced. That and it would give us the choice to have a Jedi/Sith only server.
Ask JAsk how he did it, the EUro and Templar have had it's weapons disabled lots. Don't know how - I thought I did - so you'll have to axe Jask.

JackBaldy
12-27-2006, 06:59 PM
*Grabs axe* I was only able to disable the actual weapons with g_weapondisable, but from the sound of it, Jask disabled the skills instead. I'll have to go axe him :p

Maxstate
12-27-2006, 07:01 PM
*Grabs axe* I was only able to disable the actual weapons with g_weapondisable, but from the sound of it, Jask disabled the skills instead. I'll have to go axe him :p
Axe... yeah :thumbsup:

{TheChosenOne}
12-27-2006, 08:49 PM
I would strongly suggest class based gameplay. It is easier to balance, and more fun as well as being easier for RP nuts to RP with. :p

JackBaldy
12-27-2006, 10:04 PM
*waits for Razor Ace to throw an axe at ChosenOne*

JRHockney*
12-27-2006, 11:02 PM
I would strongly suggest class based gameplay. It is easier to balance, and more fun as well as being easier for RP nuts to RP with. :p

Won't happen while Razor's the leader, less freedom, less unique, we could only get 3 or maybe 4 classes before razor got sick of coding and balancing, no time, and a great way for new players to say "wow, these classes seem kinda rushed and there's not many of them. Let's go play MB2!" Unless another master coder/modeler/permission getter who's not steppng back or just plain retiring wants to work on seige and balancing such things, it won't happen anytime soon. *coughs*Darthgravyareyoustillwithus?!*coughs*:p

*waits for Razor Ace to throw an axe at ChosenOne*

*also waits for Razor Ace to throw an axe at ChosenOne*

Maxstate
01-12-2007, 10:00 AM
OJP is very fun to play.
There are 3 or 4 things that need to be taken care of before the real release though:

-Deflecting
We need to get it a better system.

-Gunner vs Jedi balance
Less shots needed to take down Jedi, more gun usefulness, and sabers returning to ready before you can slash.

-More forcepowers and weapons
We need mindtrick back for example, sense for autopushing and sniper dodging

-General bug fixing
Juyo and Makashi's fast anims, I'll look into those if you guys can look into multistrikes.
I can live with yawing but not with 5 attacks per second.