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View Full Version : Stock Market Suffers Deadly Blow, Recession Might Be On Horizion


SilentScope001
02-27-2007, 09:51 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/28/business/28stox-web.html?_r=1&ref=business&oref=slogin

I just have to say, as an economist...that this will NOT be good for job security. Not to mention, this can be bad for the world's economy overall.

And to think that this huge stock market drop was caused by a sell-off in China speaks wonders of how interconnected the world's economy is...and how powerful China is.

Q
02-27-2007, 10:19 PM
Does anyone understand that China is out to undermine the world's economy, especially that of the U.S.? That our political leaders, both Republican and Democrat, sold us out to line their pockets with Chinese money? That a huge number of American jobs have gone to people in China who are willing to work for near-slave wages?

Aren't our political leaders supposed to have OUR best interests in mind? How many more Americans are going to have to lose their jobs before we realize that they don't, and never have?

Why in Hell do we continue to vote for these people? Why haven't people gotten angry enough to demand a change?

And no: I don't mean trading a Republican for a Democrat. Can't people see that the only difference between the two is the color of B.S. that they spout? That we are being deliberately distracted by polarizing, nonsensical political issues while our democracy is being destroyed?

It's time for a change, people.

Achilles
02-27-2007, 11:53 PM
^^^^

Well, I have a slightly different take on that. I would say that it's less a case of China being out to get us and more of a case that China is trying to join the rest of the developed world. The fact that we've really hurt our long-term economic potential is a secondary issue.

That China's economy (at it's current rate of growth) will eclipse ours within our lifetime is is a foregone conclusion. How far down the ladder we're going to slide is completely up to us.

Luckily, we have an administration committed to responsible spending and maintaining a balanced budget so that we are adequately prepared, as a nation, to face the economic hardships we face in the next 50 years.

On the other hand, if Bush is right and The Rapture is just around the corner, then we really don't need to worry about economic stability, environmental responsibility, or China for that matter. None of us will be here anyway.

Det. Bart Lasiter
02-28-2007, 12:14 AM
Does anyone understand that China is out to undermine the world's economy, especially that of the U.S.?
If China wanted to ruin the U.S. economy, they'd collect on the debt we owe them. Also, historically, China has only been interested in its own internal politics.

Q
02-28-2007, 12:15 AM
The fact that we've really hurt our long-term economic potential is a secondary issue.
Or an ancillary benefit.:p
Luckily, we have an administration committed to responsible spending and maintaining a balanced budget so that we are adequately prepared, as a nation, to face the economic hardships we face in the next 50 years.
I can't tell whether you're being genuine or sarcastic here.:giveup: What about the ~$400 billion war (that seems to be accomplishing nothing, BTW). Oh well: I guess it's good for the defense contractors.
If China wanted to ruin the U.S. economy, they'd collect on the debt we owe them.
Just give them time: they will.

Achilles
02-28-2007, 12:26 AM
I can't tell whether you're being genuine or sarcastic here.:giveup: What about the ~$400 billion war (that seems to be accomplishing nothing, BTW). Oh well: I guess it's good for the defense contractors. I'm sorry. I guess I assumed that no one could take that seriously. It was sarcasm.

Det. Bart Lasiter
02-28-2007, 12:28 AM
Just give them time: they will.And crash their own economy in the process? I think not. If a tiny country like Thailand can create major economic unrest throughout the world, imagine what would happen if the economy of a major economic player like the U.S. crashed. You've also failed to mention a reason for why they would do this.

SilentScope001
02-28-2007, 12:28 AM
Well, I have a slightly different take on that. I would say that it's less a case of China being out to get us and more of a case that China is trying to join the rest of the developed world. The fact that we've really hurt our long-term economic potential is a secondary issue.

I concur. China really doesn't care about the American economy, in fact, it profits...after all, who buy the cheap Chinese goods? Who gives China lots of cash (in the form of investment and government bonds)? The Americans. If America's economy collaspes, China's economcy collaspe as well. The world economy would suffer and collapse if everyone hates each other.

You should be more worried of the Chinese military buildup and their recent missle test where they destroyed a satillate. From there, you can make a case that China is slowly attempting to threaten America. But not via the economy.

That China's economy (at it's current rate of growth) will eclipse ours within our lifetime is is a foregone conclusion. How far down the ladder we're going to slide is completely up to us.

Not so fast, America can still be saved from the Chinese Bear. China could suffer an economic depression...or...*gasp* suffer regime change (as in, a military coup, not a US invasion) and become a Democratic Nation! The sudden economic collapse after such a change in government will be enough to hamper China's growth, and thereby keep America as the greatest superpower ever...

At least until the Russian Bear finally grows powerful enough to challenge us. ;)


I can't tell whether you're being genuine or sarcastic here.

I think Achilles is referring to the (expected) Democratic takeover of the White House in '08. I actually prefer John McCain (AZ-R) to become President, even though I disagree with his policy over Iraq (I don't want to basically vote for a President just because of a single issue of "Iraq"). I do doubt however a new President can change the tide here...but it can be possible.

Achilles
02-28-2007, 12:41 AM
Not so fast, America can still be saved from the Chinese Bear. China could suffer an economic depression...or...*gasp* suffer regime change (as in, a military coup, not a US invasion) and become a Democratic Nation! The sudden economic collapse after such a change in government will be enough to hamper China's growth, and thereby keep America as the greatest superpower ever...

At least until the Russian Bear finally grows powerful enough to challenge us. ;) I hate to sound like a broken record, but what is this based on? China's current economic growth comes from its foray into free market economics. I would think that the remnants of communism would help negate a lot of the risk of a collapsed market.

Then again, all my economics courses took place almost a decade ago...

I think Achilles is referring to the (expected) Democratic takeover of the White House in '08. I actually prefer John McCain (AZ-R) to become President, even though I disagree with his policy over Iraq (I don't want to basically vote for a President just because of a single issue of "Iraq"). I do doubt however a new President can change the tide here...but it can be possible. Nope, I was making a sarcastic remark about the current administration.

SilentScope001
02-28-2007, 12:58 AM
I hate to sound like a broken record, but what is this based on? China's current economic growth comes from its foray into free market economics. I would think that the remnants of communism would help negate a lot of the risk of a collapsed market.

Then again, all my economics courses took place almost a decade ago...

What I mean is that currently, this communist government is just some junta of leaders that contorl the country. It's basically capitalism in all but name. If said junta get overthrown, and a new government is formed, like a democratic government, there would be much internal strife and chaos due to the new regime change. It is this strife that will destablize the Chinese economy.

Q
02-28-2007, 01:12 AM
I'm sorry. I guess I assumed that no one could take that seriously. It was sarcasm.
I figured it was. You just can't be 100% sure online.
You've also failed to mention a reason for why they would do this.
It's just my general paranoia concerning the motives of a brutally totalitarian government that finances it's massive military buildup with profits gained from slave labor and technology gained from espionage. I really need to think before I go off on one of these emotionally charged rants. It's just that for some reason I can't help but think that they want to eventually take over the world. They certainly have the manpower for it. They're becoming a far better contender for global domination than the Soviet Union ever was in a very short time and I find it quite disturbing.
You should be more worried of the Chinese military buildup and their recent missle test where they destroyed a satillate. From there, you can make a case that China is slowly attempting to threaten America. But not via the economy.
What do you think is financing their military buildup? Our trading with them, perhaps? The two are bound together.
Not so fast, America can still be saved from the Chinese Bear. China could suffer an economic depression...or...*gasp* suffer regime change (as in, a military coup, not a US invasion) and become a Democratic Nation!
Actually this could happen, if our political leaders would grow consciences and take a stand on, say, China's human rights abuses and refuse to trade with them until these abuses are stopped. Trade has been going on long enough that if we were to suddenly cut off the money flow it could cause revolutionary changes in China. But for that to happen we would need political leaders in this country who can't be bought...

Achilles
02-28-2007, 01:24 AM
Actually this could happen, if our political leaders would grow consciences and take a stand on, say, China's human rights abuses and refuse to trade with them until these abuses are stopped. Trade has been going on long enough that if we were to suddenly cut off the money flow it could cause revolutionary changes in China. But for that to happen we would need political leaders in this country who can't be bought... Didn't Clinton try to do this in the 90's but had to back down when all the U.S. investors complained that he was cramping their ability to do business over there?

http://hrw.org/english/docs/1998/06/28/china1156.htm
http://www.hrw.org/campaigns/china-98/visit.htm (<= definitely read this one)

Q
02-28-2007, 01:35 AM
^^^Hence the "can't be bought" part. Good sources. I know that we were sold out by more than just the politicians; it was the businessmen too. I'd almost forgotten about all of that happening in the 90's with Clinton. It was like the debate over human rights suddenly disappeared.

Achilles
02-28-2007, 01:40 AM
If a 2nd-term U.S. President with no re-election to worry about can't pull it off, what chances do the mere mortals have?

Q
02-28-2007, 01:44 AM
We "mere mortals" could refuse to buy their goods.

Achilles
02-28-2007, 01:56 AM
My apologies, I thought we were still talking about "politicians that would grow a conscience and take a stand". I didn't realize we had changed gears to grassroots efforts.

Taken from boycottmadeinchina.org:
Since many stores now overwhelmingly carry Made in China (MIC) goods, you will certainly face problems in finding items like shoes or toys that are not MIC.
http://www.boycottmadeinchina.org/en/action_tools/boycott_primer/
If this site is the flagship of the cause, I have to say that boycotting MIC products is not going to be easy (look at the extensive list (http://www.boycottmadeinchina.org/en/boycott_hub/alternative_shopping/) of non-MIC vendors we have to choose from). Worthy cause? Absolutely. Are most people going to have the time, will, or consciousness to do it? Probably not.

Btw, nice subject change. Still don't think the politicians have a chance in hell . My 2 cents.

Jae Onasi
02-28-2007, 01:57 AM
The market was overvalued and due for a correction. It's still about 2000 points above what it was right after 9/11

Achilles
02-28-2007, 01:59 AM
The market was overvalued and due for a correction. It's still about 2000 points above what it was right after 9/11Ours or theirs?

Haven't Chinese officials been screaming "bubble" for a while now? It's a great exercise in the application of world markets though ;)

Q
02-28-2007, 02:08 AM
My apologies, I thought we were still talking about "politicians that would grow a conscience and take a stand".
I guess it was my sarcasm that got missed this time.
Still don't think the politicians have a chance in hell.And I agree with you.

SilentScope001
02-28-2007, 11:49 AM
Actually this could happen, if our political leaders would grow consciences and take a stand on, say, China's human rights abuses and refuse to trade with them until these abuses are stopped. Trade has been going on long enough that if we were to suddenly cut off the money flow it could cause revolutionary changes in China. But for that to happen we would need political leaders in this country who can't be bought...

But if we do that, then China will be MAD. It could very well be that...er...we would make relations bad with China, causing China to actually have to rearm and prepare for War. Not to mention, by forcing Chinese' relations with America to break up, you can help Nationalists come into power, and it is these Nationalists who will be quite ready to attack Taiwan.

That could very well be enough to cause a WWIII between China and America. (You hate China, so why give them a cassu bellium to declare war?)

And I doubt China would have a revolution. China remained in power for a long, long time...and its people are so rich that it got allies with India, Russia, Iran, Mynmanr, Sudan, lots of other nations in the developing world, etc. Maybe China no longer needs us...

If this site is the flagship of the cause, I have to say that boycotting MIC products is not going to be easy (look at the extensive list of non-MIC vendors we have to choose from). Worthy cause? Absolutely. Are most people going to have the time, will, or consciousness to do it? Probably not.

Remember, there are two different things being competed: The idea of supporting America...or the idea of supporting myself.

I rather support myself than boycott all products just to support a National ideal. Boycotts aren't really that effective anyway...after all, you haven't sent a message to China stating, "We won't buy goods from you!1!!"...and if you don't buy them, your loss. Someone else will buy them.

Not to mention that, as long as we don't go in an actual war with China (where China and USA could fight, and where USA could lose...or China could lose, but it would be very costly...), we could co-exist peacefully. We could very well have a slow and gradual death, like Great Britian, once the world power, and slowly, giving up the title of "World Power" to the USA. :)
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A question: Why aren't we so worried about the possiblity of the global recession that will harm both USA and China?