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View Full Version : Idea about some force knockdown system

TheShaman
04-19-2007, 06:58 AM
This concerns force powers, to make it more balanced, I had this idea:
Making a force resistance level, and a push power level.

Resistance :

-Movement
Run: 0
Walk: 1
still: 2

-Mishap
MP = 0: 4
0<MP<=5: 3
5<MP<=10: 2
10<MP<=15: 1

-Absorb level
Instead of making abosrb THE way to resist force powers, it should CONTRIBUTE to it. I've been playing holocron recently, and I totally owned all the bots with lightning and pull, except the one who had absorb. With this new knockdown system, you could resist to force without absorb if you are very careful (no running + shooting a lot), but you can still get a better resistance by choosing the power. :)
1,2,3 more resistance points for level 1,2,3.
It fits perfectly the 1,4,9 power (max resistance is 9).

You make the sum of the 3 previous things (movement and mishap).
Resistance goes from 1 to 9.

Push power: 1,4,9, respectively level 1,2,3 (^2)

Test would be:

if (push_power > resistance)
knockdown;
else increase_mishap; (MP_increase = int((9 - resistance + enemy_power)/2))

Exemple:
I have 30% of mishap, I am walking, I got 3 resistance, an enemy pushes me with level 2 (power 3), I resist knockdown and gain 10% of mishap, I now have 40%, which doesnt change anything, but suddenly very scared, I release the walk button, I'm not running. My resistance is now 2 only ! My opponent pushes me again with his level 2 (power 3), and Oh no I fall down! and now...ARGH.

Recap table (knockdown yes/no):

. 1 4 9 Push
1 n y y
2 n y y
3 n y y
4 n n y
5 n n y
6 n n y
7 n n y
8 n n y
9 n n n
Res

Tell me what you think of it. It could solve the overpower of force versus gunner, but it won't overpower gunners because if they run around or shoot too much they will have less resistance and be vulnerable.
This could apply to the knockdown of push, pull, and lightning.

Maxstate
04-19-2007, 08:04 AM
This would be a fine addition to our system, albeit it might be a bit complex to deal with. I would like to see it in there but Ace is giving the final decision.

TheShaman
04-19-2007, 12:01 PM
Yea the problem is : I have no idea how hard it is to do something like that, doing this in a little standalone program without a game behind wouldn't be hard, but in the game code itself, I don't know, so if it is too hard to add in, too bad.

Orj
04-19-2007, 01:06 PM
Sounds quite interesting. Logically very simple, but I don't know about the code.

razorace
04-19-2007, 04:18 PM
It's an good idea but shouldn't there be some level of resistance granted by having relivent Force Powers?

bjusterbaarlik
04-19-2007, 05:18 PM
It's an good idea but shouldn't there be some level of resistance granted by having relivent Force Powers?
And shouldn't there be some level of vulnerability when holding a heavy weapon?

razorace
04-19-2007, 05:58 PM
Well, if we want there be to be a point system vs a blanket no-d-while-heavy-weapon. :)

JRHockney*
04-19-2007, 08:18 PM
I'm still trying to wrap my brain around this, but it does sound like a good idea. It just could get really complex for normal players to keep track of...but that might be the draw of it since it adds more of a skill movement combo RPG like thing.

TheShaman
04-20-2007, 04:37 AM
OK I've adapted the system to absorb now.

TheShaman
04-23-2007, 06:28 AM
Check my first post again, I've now included absorb level in the force resistance.

Maxstate
04-23-2007, 08:20 AM
I'll come back to say that it MIGHT be a bit complicated to get into, and it might be a bit too restricting for gunners.. but with the aiming mode we had planned together with the current settings for guns increasing mishap I think it would be a fine addition that would take some getting used too.

TheShaman
04-23-2007, 11:50 AM
I see, but wouldn't it be in conflict with the aiming mode?

razorace
04-23-2007, 12:02 PM
It sounds pretty good.

My concern is the MP increase from blocking the attack. There's a limited range of MP that players can have (0-15) and if Force power blocking always increases this amount when blocked, I'm worried that the Force powers can just always be spamed. Maybe if the amount of MP increase be based on the level of resistance vs the level of attack?

Also, should having the same type of power (lightning skill vs lightning skill) apply to your resistance level?

TheShaman
04-23-2007, 12:39 PM
Well I've thought about the MP increase because otherwise, a gunner with no MP, full absorb, and standing still would be totally imune to knockdown, which makes my idea overpowered. This prevents it. And by the way, being pushed away could cause some balance problem (which makes you fall if you are not careful), which increases your MP.

Basing the MP increase directly on the level of resistance vs level of attack would be pointless since this MP increase is supposed to prevent people from being imune to force. But if you do something so that even someone with 9 resistance vs 1 power gains MP, it could be fine, but even the guy with most resistance must gain mishap, not to be imune forever.

As for the same type of power resistance, I think it shouldn't affect resistance. The ability to cast powerful lightning bolts should not make you resist more, same with push and pull. Absorb is the only power that should affect resistance, according to me.

razorace
04-23-2007, 04:22 PM
I agree, the defender should probably always have an increase in MP, but I think the amount of MP they gain should be proportional to their resistance level vs the attack level.

TheShaman
04-24-2007, 04:32 AM
In this case, I'm totally with you :)
I'll update my first post again.

But how to calculate this MP increase? and which size of increase? rather 1, 5, 10, 20?

Maybe MP_increase = 2*enemy_power - resistance?

razorace
04-24-2007, 11:41 AM
I think that's too high. At level 3 with max resistance....
9 = 2*9 - 9

Which would an increase of over half the MP meter. And would mean that any level of player could never block level 3 of anything more than once.

Maybe...

MP_increase = (7 - resistance - enemy_power) or 1 minimum

TheShaman
04-24-2007, 01:19 PM
Wait, I was talking in percentage, how many MP are there? I thought 100... then 9% increase at max resistance is not too much...

razorace
04-24-2007, 01:25 PM
The MP meter is 0-15, so percentage increases might not work so good.

TheShaman
04-24-2007, 01:44 PM
Nevermind, just gotta find something so it fits the /15.
Min power is 1
Max resistance is 9

With
increase = 9 - resistance + enemy_power
the minimum increase is 1, and the maximum is... well 18, but you can be knocked if you have 0 resistance, easily.

*Note: the fact that MP goes up to 15 only creates a new problem in the resistance calculation, I made 5 levels... 0 25 50 75 100...(see first post for better explanation). Gotta fix it so it fits the 15 MP.

=>Edit: OK changed a little thing in the resistance calculation, now the minimum resistance is 1, maximum is still 9. That won't change much in the whole thing, I think. It should be fine like this.

razorace
04-24-2007, 03:40 PM
A max of 18 MP for a Force block seems pretty high. Maybe if we halved that?

Wait, isn't resistance >= enemy_power in all cases? Doesn't that make the range 1-9?

TheShaman
04-25-2007, 05:34 AM
Indeed, if we proceed to the increase_MP part, it means the resistance was too high for the enemy power. So making resistance - power is a bit pointless, I agree...
If we halve it we'll have:
MP_increase = enemy_power - resistance/2
which is also
MP_increase = 2*enemy_power - resistance (to avoid float)
right?
Let's test the cases:

power = 1
MP_increase = 2 - 1 = 1 (maximum)
MP_increase = 2 - 9 = -7 (minimum) eeh?

power = 4
MP_increase = 8 - 4 = 4 (maximum)
MP_increase = 8 - 9 = -1 (minimum) eeh? again

power = 9
MP_increase = 18 - 9 = 9 (only case, since max resistance = max power = 9)

what to do with the negative numbers?

Oh wait I finally got what you meant in your last sentence, indeed, it cannot go up to 18 because resistance >= power, so in my calculation, the range is 1-9 for power 1, 4-9 for power 4, and 9 for power 9.
Seems a bit high though, and if we reduce of 1? 0-8 for level 1 should be OK because being invulnerable against level 1 could do...

Maxstate
04-25-2007, 06:12 AM
Are you guys sure this won't be a bit too complicated?

TheShaman
04-25-2007, 06:56 AM
Well maybe it seems so because we are doing a lot of calc at the moment, but once we are done with this, it might be easier than we thought.
It's not very complicated, I think... just 1 test and 2 cases...

razorace
04-25-2007, 11:56 AM
Yeah, it just sounds complicated. IE, programmer stuff :)

MP_increase = (9 - resistance +enemy_power)/2

This would make the range be 0-4

Maxstate
04-25-2007, 12:07 PM
Yeah I know but it's more if this will translate into something complex ingame or not.
We'll see :d

TheShaman
04-25-2007, 12:11 PM
This would be for
power 1 : 0.5-4.5 (int 0-4)
power 2 : 2-4.5 (int 2-4)
power 3 : 4.5 (int 4)
Total range 0-4, indeed.
This could be fine.
Just to compare, how many MP does being parried give you? 4 also? or 3? maybe 5? Tell me :D.

Maxstate
04-25-2007, 12:14 PM
1/8th of the bar ;)

TheShaman
04-25-2007, 12:22 PM
hum 15/8 = float.
nearly 2? no I think it's more, well it seems at least... isn't it rather 1/5?

razorace
04-25-2007, 03:21 PM
I believe the MP cost of getting parried is 4.

TheShaman
04-25-2007, 03:26 PM
As I expected. This means the MP increase looks fine, since it's at most like being parried. I'll update my first post.

Maxstate
04-25-2007, 04:00 PM
Yup, still 1/8th of the bar approximately. But it seems the bars aren't as wide at the start and get bigger near the end. Provide screenshots I must?

TheShaman
04-25-2007, 04:18 PM
Well I think you must, it seems hard to do a bar that is not regular.
Also it's not 1/8, if you read this thready completely, you'll notice MP goes up to 15, 1/8 would be nearly 2, not 4.

Maxstate
04-25-2007, 04:25 PM
http://s2.photobucket.com/albums/y30/Maxstate/?action=view&current=shot1084.jpg

Looks like an eighth to me although I don't have a linear handy right now :)

TheShaman
04-25-2007, 05:56 PM
Indeed, your estimation was good, I counted the pixels myself, and it's 1/8,4 (yea I'm like that, some crazy guy).
So there's a missing piece of the following :
1) Your meter does not indicate the parry MP increase (maybe you were not parried, or maybe you just regenerated MP right after (shii cho regens fast)).
2) The bar is not regular, it's as you said, harder to fill in the begining, easier at the end.
3) Razorace gave us fake information to toy with our brains, sadistic one.
Gotta inquire to find which one is true.

razorace
04-25-2007, 07:00 PM
I'm pretty sure my info is accurate.

Maxstate
04-26-2007, 03:20 AM
ooh Razor Ace is becoming a rappah :p

Well good luck on this, is there a bug ticket for it yet?

JRHockney*
04-26-2007, 08:51 AM
I believe the MP cost of getting parried is 4.

else
{//standard attack
//set blocker
#ifdef _DEBUG
mechBlocker->behaveMode = SABBEHAVE_BLOCK;
#endif

//set attacker
if(parried)
{//parry values
if(attacker->client->ps.saberMove == LS_A_LUNGE)
{//attacker's lunge was parried, force mishap.
*attackerMishap = SabBeh_RollBalance(attacker, mechAttacker, qtrue);
}
else
{
*attackerMishap = SabBeh_RollBalance(attacker, mechAttacker, atkparry);
}
#ifdef _DEBUG
mechAttacker->behaveMode = SABBEHAVE_ATTACKPARRIED;
#endif
attacker->client->ps.userInt3 |= ( 1 << FLAG_PARRIED );

}
Doesn't look like its 4 to me. We need to change that especially in the new combat since the attack parries happen less now. Would someone who's not going to work now bug ticket looking into that?

TheShaman
04-26-2007, 09:52 AM
Indeed, it's 2, although we were talking about parry, and this part of code is about attack parry, right? And I'm not sure it's the same MP gain.

razorace
04-26-2007, 02:23 PM
Oops, I guess is is 2. Maybe we reduced it from 4 since it was too much. :)

Anyway, from memory, attack parries only force Mishaps, they don't actually cause more MP than a normal parry.

TheShaman
04-26-2007, 02:48 PM
But attack parries do give MP to the attack parried player? I thought it only forced mishap.

razorace
04-26-2007, 02:55 PM
It looks like it does both.

TheShaman
04-26-2007, 03:00 PM
But if the attacker suffers a mishap, like a slow bounce or a butter finger thing (I think it's possible with attack parry but not sure anymore), he'll lose 3 MP for suffiring a mishap, and gain 2 for being parried, right? So he'll lose 1 MP.
Or does it behave in another way, like... only gain MP, or only lose MP?

razorace
04-26-2007, 04:50 PM
From the code, you can see that he "Rolls" Mishap (and gets mishapped) before the additional MP is added. As such, the +2 MP is added after the MP reduction from the mishap.

JRHockney*
04-26-2007, 06:26 PM
If its 2, it should be at least 3 if not 4. Defense is becoming too hard when you just want to do parries and raise there mishap meter.

razorace
04-26-2007, 06:38 PM
we can boost those. bug ticket. :)

TheShaman
04-27-2007, 05:16 AM
But I think attack parries should not give as many MP as normal parry, like 3 for attack parry and 4 for normal parry. Because attack parry already forces a mishap.