PDA

View Full Version : Ok so we all agree that Special moves (sans lunge)are useless, how do we improve them


deuxhero
04-25-2007, 12:34 AM
without going overboard?

Well the dual saber twirl (crouch hold attack and move forward) could be greatly improved by allowing the user to walk (but not run) when it is in use.


the Katas I have no idea, and the rest I can't remeber off the top of my head.

Maxstate
04-25-2007, 04:02 AM
DFA's were great before the 10fp for jumps was instated, now a single DFA costs 13 FP to do! Not worth it anymore.
Jumping to a platform some 20 feet high costs more than half of your FP bar too.

The long range DFA's like the ones Djem-So and Juyo have are not worth it anymore either, but would be far better if the FP drain was decreased and they would knock someone down on-hit.

Lunges are :thumbdown:

UDM
04-25-2007, 04:14 AM
I dunno, I think lunges are pretty useful when the enemy is low on DP. It's like a surefire way to kill them because people don't usually parry low brows

TheShaman
04-25-2007, 06:13 AM
I think the FP increase of DFA's was an accident, since it includes a jump, jump was increased of 8, didn't a DFA cost 5 FP before?
The very least that could be done is reduce it's cost to 11 (jump + attack).
The knocking DFAs seem interesting too.
Although in the movies a DFA didn't knock, what about making it give mishap and/or drain more DP than normal swings or fakes (if it's not done already)?

Maxstate
04-25-2007, 07:10 AM
They can't have been an accident since I specifically asked for gunners not being able to jump with certain guns in their hands so to balance hybrids a bit more, Razor however didn't agree and instead said he would up the jump cost for initial jumping.

The only problem is that he didn't lower the cost for sustaining Force jump after the initial jump, which I hope will happen for the next version.

I can't remember seeing a long DFA in the movies anywhere but it seems like the effect for it. I mean, putting my whole body mass and using gravity to come down on you with a single slash is likely going to knock you down. The attack is very costly and very hard to perform, if sped up it could be a new way to stop runners as well.

TheShaman
04-25-2007, 07:58 AM
Exactly, it's an accident : I mean it's wanted to increase jump cost, but not to put the DFA to 13, that's because the jump cost increased.
Well I'm not sure...

Maxstate
04-25-2007, 08:36 AM
The DFA's cost is not enough to warrant it being an accident, he didn't increase the DFA's cost but he increased JUMP's cost. You need to jump to use the DFA.

TheShaman
04-25-2007, 12:39 PM
Man that's exactly what I'm saying...
Accident means "not on purpose".
The purpose was to increase jump, and as a result, it also increased DFA's cost... since it's a jump in it... Try to understand what I say instead of thinking what I say is wrong, my english is not that bad is it?
So the fact that DFA costs 13 FP is definitely an accident, the goal was to increase cost of jump, not to put DFA's cost on 13.

razorace
04-25-2007, 01:07 PM
The only problem is that he didn't lower the cost for sustaining Force jump after the initial jump, which I hope will happen for the next version.
Bug Ticket.

Maxstate
04-25-2007, 01:18 PM
Done und done.

JRHockney*
04-25-2007, 06:52 PM
And don't forget to reduce the cost of cartwheels and maybe backflips back to 3 fp. When the heck did those get so high?! I understand trying to nerf bunny hopping, but the original cost of backflips and cart wheels was there to allow low level jumps in combat so you could have more movie realistic jumping dynamics rather than just walking all the time. If we need to nerf them in anyway, nerf the distance of the backflip or carwheel, not the FP cost.

TheShaman
04-25-2007, 07:06 PM
Yea it costs 13 at the moment.
Should not be more than 10. Never.
But I suggest 5 FP to make them more useable.
Even for a normal jump 10 FP is a lot. If you want to prevent bunnyhopping, there are other ways, in MB2 you get slowed down when jump, so you can bunnyhop, but you'll be far slower than someone who is walking ! And if it's still not enough, you can add a cooldown to jump, of 1 second or something... then nobody will bunnyhop ever again.
But the FP drain is maybe not the appropriate solution. 5 FP could do, 6 for DFA because it adds an attack to it, and also 5 FP for cartwheel and backflip...

razorace
04-25-2007, 08:02 PM
I don't think we need to change the 10 FP for jumps. We probably just need to lower the FP cost in the cases of backflips, cartwheels, etc.

Maxstate
04-26-2007, 04:18 AM
And DFA's, don't forget DFA's.

TheShaman
04-26-2007, 06:49 AM
Alright, and how many will these special jumps cost (DFA, cartwheel, backflip)? Same as a normal jump? or 5 for the two and 6 for DFA?

Tanqexe
04-26-2007, 07:07 AM
Why not just have a progressive jump cost for different weapon types? For example, UDM told me that ensi's separated the weapons into different categories. So let's say we have light, medium, and heavy weapons categories.

Light (blaster, lightsaber): Jump costs the same as before 009u
Medium (E-11, Bowcaster, Disruptor? Fletchette?): Normal jump costs 10 FP as is now
Heavy (Rocket Launcher, DC-15): Normal jump costs 10 FP, Force Jump regresses to one level below current (If Jump 3, then now Jump 2; if Jump 1, then now Jump 0)

I just find that as a Jedi, a tiny jump to get on top of a crate costing 10 FP is pretty ridiculous. Besides, I think that a progressive jump cost seems more realistic considering what you're currently carrying and how that would fatigue you.

Maxstate
04-26-2007, 07:09 AM
Why not just have a progressive jump cost for different weapon types? For example, UDM told me that ensi's separated the weapons into different categories. So let's say we have light, medium, and heavy weapons categories.

Light (blaster, lightsaber): Jump costs the same as before 009u
Medium: Normal jump costs 10 FP as is now
Heavy: Normal jump costs 10 FP, Force Jump regresses to one level below current (If Jump 3, then now Jump 2; if Jump 1, then now Jump 0)

I just find that as a Jedi, a tiny jump to get on top of a crate costing 10 FP is pretty ridiculous. Besides, I think that a progressive jump cost seems more realistic considering what you're currently carrying and how that would fatigue you.

That's kind of similar to the original idea I had, although mine was a bit more simplistic to save us some time.

Hybrid balancing is top-priority for now so lets get brainstorming.

Tanqexe
04-26-2007, 07:13 AM
Or just halve the normal jump cost in case of lightsaber use. *shrug* Lots of ways to get around this issue, but imposing 10 FP cost on everybody IMO isn't the best way to get rid of bunny hopping gunners.

Maxstate
04-26-2007, 08:09 AM
Too bad you don't post more often as it seems I'm usually outnumbered when it comes to sharing ideas :( This is what I think too. We need the most simple solutions for balance that don't totally castrate certain classes so we can move on and get working on more graphical and fun stuff like skills, effects and force powers.

razorace
04-26-2007, 03:29 PM
Would you prefer it if I tie half my brain behind my back? :D

Anyway, I agree that it might be cool to have some sort of incumerance system, but I think it should be based on the number/type of weapons you're carrying and not just the one you're currently using.

Plus, maybe jetpacks shouldn't care about the weightload (and therefore be the logical choice for gunners).

But, on the other hand, this will primarily affect gunners, is that something we really want to do?

TheShaman
04-26-2007, 03:40 PM
Jump should maybe cost 2 FP + 1 per weapon you are carrying, or can you add different values according to the weapons owned? like rocket launcher gives you 3, disruptor 2, pistol 0, E11 1...etc?

Also, now we are talking about jetpack, don't you find the way jetpack acts totally stupid? (Dude, that's basejka...) Is it possible to make it like MB's which is much more predictable and realistic?

razorace
04-26-2007, 03:53 PM
I suppose we could just increase the FP cost, but I think that might be less feedback than what people would expect from being overweight.

As for the jetpack, yes, we could change the way it works. I just haven't gotten around to it yet. What sort of different behavior would you like? Personally, I'd prefer more "rocket-like" movement instead of the current system's hovering.

TheShaman
04-26-2007, 03:55 PM
Oh yeah, maybe you could reduce running speed according to the number of weapons/items carried, and their respective weight.

As for jetpack, I don't really get what you mean with rocket-like... You played MB2, right? (even a long time ago, or MB1, the jetpack was the same, or any JK2 mod that had jetpack, like jediplus)

Tanqexe
04-26-2007, 04:48 PM
Encumbrance system may be one of the big things to balance out hybrid classes. Since a pure Jedi preferentially spends points on Force/saber skills, they can run and jump with relative ease - in fact, it's one of their important defenses in light of being blobbed and hit with rockets. On the other hand if one chooses to be a hybrid, they'll have to trade in some of the benefits of having Force abilities for reduced running speed or increased jump fatigue...or both. It seems "realistic" to approach balancing in this manner.

Going back to the DFAs, I accidentally discovered that the range of my Djem So DFA was reduced when I used the new Hard Edge weapon on JKFiles...perhaps we should eliminate or drastically shorten the distance of the initial jump to make these DFAs useful again. Let's say that the drawback is if the opponent doesn't slash you at a vulnerable spot (or something like that) then they get massive DP drain for Djem So DFA, MP increase for Juyo DFA. If you get hit before you're halfway through the DFA then you take damage ignoring DP (because you're in the air) or you get instantly killed.

...What IS Juyo's perk supposed to be anyway? It's the only saber style with no perk right now (other than staff and dual). I'm still rooting for a 2-second parry paralysis...

Maxstate
04-26-2007, 05:30 PM
Don't take any offense Razor.. I'm just sick and tired of hybrids and want to get them done with already :(

As heavy weapons already disallow certain force powers from being used I wouldn't mind jump being one of them.

So lets get this straight:

Issue 1:
Hybrids using jump to dodge saber attacks.
-New jumping fp cost nerfed Jedi's jump too much
+Either nerf jump (disable it) while using guns, or make gunners gain a ****load of mishap when they do it.

Issue 2:
Base Jetpack is ghey:
-It has a bad physics system, hovers and can't go higher after it has reached a certain limit which makes it useless on big maps.
-Jet fuel recharges too fast, making flame hit and runs possible. (1/10 of the bar is enough to burst you away at least 50 feet...)
+Fine-tune the system a little
+Decrease the regeneration rate

Issue 3:
-Juyo has no perk
+ ?????
lol just kidding. Finding a perk for Juyo is hard because noone is really ready to assign it a single benefit as it has many. I think we should concentrate on it's chaotic and unpredictable nature and make IT work on mishap instead of Makashi.

But we could also just give the user a real Juyo situation; power attacks that can initiate locks on will. This would work like this:

Option 1: User holds both buttons to initiate a power attack, if both are held and the power attack is an unparried hit, a lock commences.

Option 2: User initiates a power attack by holding both buttons again, but this time lets go of secondary after the power attack has been initiated. So when his attack hits, he's purely holding attack. This would result in no lock.

This way users won't be able to just jump into the style and will have to learn to use it correctly but will benefit a lot from it when they do. You can really take someone by surprise if they're expecting a lock but get none. It's a total mindfruck.

madcatmach2
04-26-2007, 05:57 PM
As for jetpack, I don't really get what you mean with rocket-like... You played MB2, right? (even a long time ago, or MB1, the jetpack was the same, or any JK2 mod that had jetpack, like jediplus)play force mod III some time i think thats the kind of jet pack he wants and personally i would love to see that over our hover one

http://jediknight2.filefront.com/file/ForceMod_III_Return_of_the_Sith_Win_Installer;2961 0

ahh that was a cool mod if just to have my minions

razorace
04-26-2007, 06:55 PM
Encumbrance system may be one of the big things to balance out hybrid classes.
Ok, we can give it a shot. Bug ticket the concept.
Going back to the DFAs, I accidentally discovered that the range of my Djem So DFA was reduced when I used the new Hard Edge weapon on JKFiles...perhaps we should eliminate or drastically shorten the distance of the initial jump to make these DFAs useful again.
So you're talking about the distance you jump when DFAing and not the amount of jump you gotta do before starting the DFA, right?
I'm still rooting for a 2-second parry paralysis...
I think the Gods of Balance would frown on that. :)
Don't take any offense Razor.. I'm just sick and tired of hybrids and want to get them done with already
None taken. I've been trying to address this problem as specifics are uncovered. :)
Issue 1:
Hybrids using jump to dodge saber attacks.
-New jumping fp cost nerfed Jedi's jump too much
+Either nerf jump (disable it) while using guns, or make gunners gain a ****load of mishap when they do it.
Bug ticket the jump FP cost issue. I'll go in and reduce the "continue" FP cost for the Jedi jumps.

Also, go ahead and bug ticket the idea of increasing the MP cost for firing a gun in mid-air.
-It has a bad physics system, hovers and can't go higher after it has reached a certain limit which makes it useless on big maps.
Add that to the jetpack retooling bug ticket.
-Jet fuel recharges too fast, making flame hit and runs possible. (1/10 of the bar is enough to burst you away at least 50 feet...)
Bug ticket.
But we could also just give the user a real Juyo situation; power attacks that can initiate locks on will. This would work like this:
I don't get it. Isn't that basically just the normal attack fake behavior?

Maxstate
04-26-2007, 06:59 PM
Currently if saberlocks are on, a succesful non-parried power attack will always result in a lock. With the new changes a Juyo user can himself control whenever a saber lock happens (if he hits with it and it's unparried). I don't think there is a way of preventing a lock from happening after a succesful power attack currently.

razorace
04-26-2007, 07:13 PM
Oh, so you could let go of a button and avoid the saberlock?

JRHockney*
04-26-2007, 07:13 PM
Currently if saberlocks are on, a succesful non-parried power attack will always result in a lock. With the new changes a Juyo user can himself control whenever a saber lock happens (if he hits with it and it's unparried). I don't think there is a way of preventing a lock from happening after a succesful power attack currently.

I don't get it either as a perk. It would be more like a preference that would never be used unless the "unlocking" attack fake also caused a slowbounce because they get an extra hit with it. Even then, it would just be a preference more than a perk. In the bug ticket I just recently submitted for juyos lack of perk, I suggested that all special moves (DFAs, maybe lunge, cart wheel, roll stab, and maybe kick) have less FP cost, therefore making stronger or surprise moves cheaper the styles perk, and more like the actual wiki Juyo.

razorace
04-26-2007, 07:18 PM
Well, maybe we could make it so that Juyo attack fakes don't cause saberlocks and just mishaps the other player. But, this would mean that Juyo users couldn't superbreak either. :|

Maxstate
04-26-2007, 07:21 PM
What's the problem with letting them use both though? Via my idea I mean.

razorace
04-26-2007, 07:30 PM
mmm, wouldn't it be a bit weird to have Juyo have a movement skill that other styles can't use?

JRHockney*
04-26-2007, 07:32 PM
*coughs*notaperkitsapreference*coughs* :p I mean c'mon, give it something that makes it a true Juyo and comparible to the other saber offense 3 forms.

razorace
04-26-2007, 07:40 PM
I've already suggested free attack fakes. Running out of ideas. :)

JRHockney*
04-26-2007, 08:52 PM
I've already suggested free attack fakes. Running out of ideas. :)

But I just gave one!!!! LOL :p

Maxstate
04-27-2007, 06:09 AM
mmm, wouldn't it be a bit weird to have Juyo have a movement skill that other styles can't use?
It's all up to the user if they know how to use this skill properly so I think it would be a good idea.

TheShaman
04-27-2007, 06:27 AM
At the moment I don't think saberlocks occur everytime you land an unparried fake on the enemy, it seems to have a 50% chance to happen in this case.
So making it 100% with Juyo (even if you have to use it properly) is a far bigger advantage on the other styles ! Saberlocks drain a lot of DP, can cause mishap or death of the enemy !
I already imagine you fighting with Juyo: fake lock fake lock fake superbreak, enemy dead.
I'm rather for your first idea, inverting the perk with Makashi, mishap giver, which is more realistic. (Although this would be rather Vapaad, but anyway you made Juyo a single saber stance, and both are form 7, so I won't annoy you with that.)

Maxstate
04-27-2007, 06:42 AM
At the moment I don't think saberlocks occur everytime you land an unparried fake on the enemy, it seems to have a 50% chance to happen in this case.
So making it 100% with Juyo (even if you have to use it properly) is a far bigger advantage on the other styles ! Saberlocks drain a lot of DP, can cause mishap or death of the enemy !
I already imagine you fighting with Juyo: fake lock fake lock fake superbreak, enemy dead.
I'm rather for your first idea, inverting the perk with Makashi, mishap giver, which is more realistic. (Although this would be rather Vapaad, but anyway you made Juyo a single saber stance, and both are form 7, so I won't annoy you with that.)

Vaapad is just Mace Windu's take on Juyo, Juyo is not a staff style.

TheShaman
04-27-2007, 07:07 AM
I didn't say Juyo was a staff style. But we don't see much of Juyo's single saber, just a bit on Tatooine and at the end of DOTF.
But Vapaad is, although basically the same as Juyo, very different. It's darker, and probably more confusing, whereas Juyo focuses on agility and strength.
I was saying that because at the moment, staff has "Shii-cho".
According to the animations, I'd rather call purple "Vapaad", and staff stance "Juyo", but maybe it won't be possible since staff is yellow in basejka...

Tanqexe
04-27-2007, 11:00 AM
Since we're thinking of having separate upgrades for gunners, we should do the same for sabers. Special moves and perks should be buyable upgrades...and Max is right, the pace of combat now in 009u pretty much cancels out the perks that we do have; they don't play a significant role in saber combat like they should.

First of all, is Max's idea difficult to code? If not then we can just try it out and see how it fits with the rest. Besides, Djem So already has a "special" move: unparried attack fakes do extra DP damage (although making it FP drain instead would be nice). I'd also suggest that when someone attacks with a "released" attack fake, if unparried it makes the mishap meter go up.

So where does that leave Makashi? Either beef up the mishap damage from normal strikes or lower the thresholds for mishap events (disarms, knockdowns, bounces). Or since Makashi is passive aggressive, Makashi's special move can be that you can cause disarm or get bonus DP damage with an attack fake following a successful riposte (would be a very nice bonus considering Makashi is one of the weaker styles, and it would simulate the surprise factor of a precision cut).

What of Soresu? Beef up its defense abilities, make it a style that someone will actually want to use. Make it so successful ripostes helps you regain DP when you're below 25 DP. We had that code before in an earlier version.

Making the styles more unique will give people more creativity in how they deal with duels.

Gotta go, but I'm just saying that making "perks" a more active, strategic effort will make fighting against and with each style more interesting...because right now they don't amount to too much. I don't see many people fighting with Soresu or Makashi, and there's a reason for that.

Edit: Yeah razor, eliminate or drastically reduce the distance of the DFA so that they're more practical to use.

TheShaman
04-27-2007, 02:51 PM
What about making perks affect saber vs gun, too?
Here are a few ideas:
First of all, an idea would be to be able to buy the x styles you want, x is your level of saber offense. You could choose any of them, no order restriction.

Shii-cho is the basic form, so leaving it as it is now could do, just a higher MP regen for being balanced.

Makashi is a saber vs saber form. It should have a malus against guns, like 1 more DP cost for non-manually-deflected shots. As for the saber vs saber, when you attack parry someone, he should gain more MP than with another (I suggested in another post or thread that parry gives 4 MP to other, and attack parry only 2 because it forces mishap, so with makashi, it could give 4 as well). Also, winning a saberlock (no superbreak attempt) should give MP to the enemy.

Soresu, the defense form, is very good against blasters, so deflecting a shot should cost 1 DP less, no matter if you are manually deflecting or not. Against sabers, normal parries and attack parries should both cost half of the normal DP cost.

Djem-so, the offensive form, is also good against blasters, so manually deflected shots (with a windup fake or a swing) should cost half of normal DP cost. Against sabers, since it's a strength based form, it should cost 1 FP to block or parry or attack parry.
(no extra DP cost for fakes, as it is at the moment)

Juyo (coughvaapadcoughmaxstatecough), the confusing form, should give 1 MP when blocked and attack fakes should cost 25% more DP to block (as well as 1 MP given) because it's unpredictable.

I don't have any idea for duals and staff yet, I'll think about it.

Maxstate
04-27-2007, 02:54 PM
We've gone through that so many times, first, it wouldn't be noticable ingame. Second, that's a very shallow interpretation of the wikipedia article on the saber styles.

TheShaman
04-27-2007, 02:58 PM
Well, I'm just proposing, what I did is just augmenting the perks a bit, and also retooled them according to wikipedia, as you said... But I prefer passive perks than the control of saberlocks as you proposed earlier.

Maxstate
04-27-2007, 03:00 PM
The passive ones are unnoticable. There is no valid reason to switch to any other style save for makashi or shii-cho for decreasing/increasing mishap. Even shii-cho is getting irrelevant with the speed of our combat system :(

I don't know.. maybe I was dumb in the first place for wanting perks. Sure they're fun and all and really give a twist to saber combat but if everyone can get every style what's the point?

TheShaman
04-27-2007, 03:02 PM
That's why I said making the styles buyable would be better.
1 style per offene level, so you have to choose.

(btw go on hamachi, you are afk without being afk)

Maxstate
04-27-2007, 03:10 PM
We've discussed that too and it has been ticketed already.

razorace
04-27-2007, 07:48 PM
I don't know. I like Shaman's suggestions.

I know, I know. This is a reversal on my part, but I'm warming up to the idea of the 7 saber forms.

razorace
04-27-2007, 11:03 PM
We can name them at will, just need someone to do the additional graphics.

TheShaman
04-28-2007, 06:11 AM
Or not to hurt anybody who holds dear the saber styles (and to avoid things like "it's not juyo it's vapaad!" or "it's not djem so it's shien!"...) what about just putting a roman number of the form?
Shii-cho would be "I" in yellow, Makashi would be "II" in cyan, Soresu would be "III" in blue, Ataru/Ataro/Sokan would be "IV" in green, Shien/Djem-so would be "V" in red, Niman would be "VI" in orange, and Juyo/Vapaad would be "VII" in purple.
Although we don't have animations for form IV and VI... Maybe forget them and call the 7 forms the 5 current we have + dual + staff? but what is their name (dual tra'kata or so, but staff? juyo as well? heh...) or number?

Maxstate
04-28-2007, 08:29 AM
Styles aren't limited to how many sabers you can carry. You can use duals and still have a Djem-So type style and mentality nigra.

TheShaman
04-28-2007, 12:10 PM
Yes but it's not possible in JKA, I'm afraid. Dual and staff = 1 style each, in a poor game like this.

Tanqexe
04-28-2007, 02:49 PM
*sigh* Max and I had similar ideas about the saber forms before.

I'm making new graphical icons for the saber forms (think KotOR), so no need to worry about whether the display name is the form name or the number.

TheShaman
04-28-2007, 03:04 PM
Good, try to make them so we recognize them without having to learn them by heart (that would confuse less a newcomer), I know it's hard, but do your best ;)

razorace
04-28-2007, 03:59 PM
Do you have an example? I'm confused how a name would be easier to remember/discuss than a picture.

Tanqexe
04-28-2007, 05:04 PM
Here's what I think...

Now that bjuster's helping us with some nice new menus to play with:

In the Force menu, instead of having Saber Offense/Defense, we can have a simple three-tier category:

Lightsaber Proficiency:
I. Initiate - Enable lightsaber use (Shii-cho), access to lightsaber menu and general saber skill upgrades
II. Knight - Enables use of up to 2 styles; Soresu, Djem So enabled
III. Weaponmaster - Enables use of up to 3 styles; Juyo, Makashi, Dual/Staff enabled

Now in the saber menu:

Top row will have the list of available styles. Selecting one style unhides the row of upgrades dealing with that style.

General saber skill upgrades:

Deflect:
I. Initiate - Pretty much Defense 1, particularly the time window between successful deflections; 180 degree deflection coverage; shots to rear 180 degrees do 150% DP damage; manual reflection goes to crosshair 15% of the time
II. Advanced - Defense 2, decreased time window between successful deflections; 270 degree deflection coverage; shots to rear 90 degrees do 150% DP damage; manual reflection goes to crosshair 30% of the time
III. Master - Defense 3, further decreased time window between successful deflections; 360 degree deflection coverage; manual reflection goes to crosshair 50% of the time

Dueling:
I. Initiate - -1 DP cost to parrying; 180 degree vulnerability to back hits, 150% damage
II. Advanced - -2 DP cost to parrying; 90 degree vulnerability to back hits, 150% damage
III. Master - -4 DP cost to parrying; no vulnerability to back hits

Acrobatics:
I. Initiate - -1 FP cost to normal jumps, cartwheels, flips, and wall-running
II. Advanced - -2 FP cost for acrobatics; successful flipping DFA causes slowbounce
III. Master - -3 FP cost for acrobatics; successful flipping DFA causes knockdown

---
-Some other general saber skills, can't think right now
---


Each saber form has a skill you automatically start off with, plus a buyable passive skill, defense skill, and attack skill.

Shii-Cho
Innate – 125% MP regen, 15 DP damage swings
Passive – Harmony – 150% MP regen when standing still
Defense – Footwork – Timing crouch forces a stumble from knockdown-inducing attacks (rockets, clone rifle, flechette, lightning), cooldown time 5 seconds
Attack – Can’t think of one at the moment, probably will…

Makashi
Innate – Unparried regular attacks do 3 MP damage, +2 DP cost to auto-deflect, 14 DP damage swings
Passive – Flurry - Unparried regular attacks do 5 MP damage
Defense – Master Riposte – Successful ripostes deliver 4 DP damage
Attack – Precision – Unparried attack fakes only reduce 3 MP for opponent; holding down attack button during quick lock causes stumble if enemy has 5-9 MP, disarm if 10-15 MP

Soresu
Innate – -2 DP damage reduction from deflect/block, 12 DP damage swings
Passive – Spinning Shield – 50% DP damage reduction to deflect/block/parries/ripostes, manual deflect only requires fake instead of full swing
Defense – Resilience – Ripostes give back 20 DP if DP is in critical range
Attack – Opportunity - +4 DP damage to regular swings on enemies in mishap events

Ataru
(Ha! IF it even gets incorporated!)

Djem So
Innate – Unparried attack fakes do +1 FP damage, reduced MP regained from parries (-1? -2?), 17 DP damage swings
Passive – Perseverence – 125% DP regen when standing still
Defense – Bolt Reflect – Auto deflect can reflect 20% of shots back to gunner
Attack – Hammer – Unparried attacks do +1 FP damage, unparried attack fakes do +2 FP damage, enables leaping DFA (unparried hit results in heavy bounce)

Juyo
Innate – Fakes near opponent do +2 DP damage, +1 MP/DP cost from blocks, 16 DP damage swings
Passive – Wraith - Rolls don’t require jump to initiate; directional button + double tap crouch
Defense – Redirection - Successful manual reflect causes gunners to mishap according to their mishap range; can manual reflect force lightning if FP is greater than enemy’s
Attack – Chaotic Rhythm – Allows released attack fake swing; 115% DP damage from unparried released attack, enables spinning DFA (unparried hit results in stumble)


Question: What're the current characteristics of Staff and Dual?

Saber Staff
Innate –
Passive –
Defense –
Attack –

Jar'Kai
Innate –
Passive –
Defense –
Attack –

TheShaman
04-29-2007, 06:29 AM
Shii-cho review: (I like the overall thing.)

Makashi review: (A few good ideas, but I disagree with many things)
1) I'd rather make Juyo give MP than Makashi.
2) I don't understand when Makashi deals 5 MP instead of 3.
3) It's far too much MP for Makashi! in 5 attacks of 3 MP, the enemy has full MP! It should be 1, not 3! And when you give 5, it should be 2! But once again, this is rather for Juyo
4) Why should unparried attack fakes reduce the enemy MP? Want to lose?

Soresu review: (Mostly good ideas, 1 thing I don't understand or disagree with)
1) Spinning shield affect "block" (50% cost), do you mean saber block? If no, explain, if yes, I don't agree, Soresu has not just a good defense to help newbies, it's the perfect defense for skilled defenders (people who can parry and attack parry whenever they want, contrary to me) so it should have very good parry or riposte (attack parry) abilities, but not general blocking (that would be rather staff).

Djem-so review: (I disagree on some things, and don't understand 1 thing)
1) You should not have a bonus when auto-blocking shots, but when swing blocking them! Djem so is an active and offensive style, you are always moving and swinging in it, contrary to Soresu who is more passive and defensive.
2) I don't understand at all the hammer part. (What I understood is that Attack fakes do 1 FP damage, and that attacks do 1 FP damage, and also that attack fakes do 2 FP damage. What the hell? And the DFA is always enabled... heeh?)
3) Also I don't think Djem-so should be fake-based. It's not confusing, it's quite fast, and strong swings, you repeat over and over, until your opponent dies tired. So normal attacks AND attack fakes, should both drain 1 FP to enemy, not ONLY attack fakes.

Juyo review: (I disagree with several things, if not all, I'm a pain, right?)
1) I don't understand your first line.
2) I simply don't like the roll idea. (Sorry...)
3) I don't like the gunner mishap idea either. And lightning should not be reflectable, even if it's kinda done in EP3, I consider it as a mistake, and it's rather a force power than an ability of a style. (Really sorry...)
4) In fact, for released/unreleased, it should be like that IMO :
released : no chance to lock. 125% DP damage.
unreleased : just like the other styles' attack fakes.
So you can choose more DP damage rather than a lock chance.
5) Enabling DFA? what the hell? this is always enabled...


Current staff:
50% DP cost to block/parry/riposte enemy attacks. Swing costs 2 FP. Can hit 2 times with a swing.

Current duals:
No FP cost for direction changes in attack fakes. Swing costs 2 FP. Can hit 2 times with a swing.

Tanqexe
04-29-2007, 02:10 PM
Shii-cho review: (I like the overall thing.)

Got an idea for an attack skill? :)

Makashi review: (A few good ideas, but I disagree with many things)
1) I'd rather make Juyo give MP than Makashi.
2) I don't understand when Makashi deals 5 MP instead of 3.
3) It's far too much MP for Makashi! in 5 attacks of 3 MP, the enemy has full MP! It should be 1, not 3! And when you give 5, it should be 2! But once again, this is rather for Juyo
4) Why should unparried attack fakes reduce the enemy MP? Want to lose?

1) Makashi at 14 DP is already on the weak end of the saber damage spectrum, especially for a Weaponmaster level style. Adding an additional dimension to its attack (MP) damage compensates for this and reflects its passive-aggressive nature.
2) Makashi without any upgrades deals 3 MP damage. The passive upgrade increases the innate ability of Makashi to do MP damage. That’s pretty much all it is.
3) If someone has to use skillpoints to get to Saber Proficiency level 3, then the styles there better be worth it. Makashi is underused, and it being focused on MP damage more than makes up for its already weak DP attack damage and makes all those skill points invested to get to it worth it. If 3 and 5 MP damage are too much, just go with 2 and 4. But again, Makashi should be a lethal enough style to invest so many skill points for. Only 1 or 2 MP damage at the current pace of combat is pitiful.
4) You misunderstood. When an opponent enters a mishap after being attack faked successfully, their mishap meter goes down a certain amount. The idea is that even though this happens, the amount that it goes down is not as much as it usually is. Thus the enemy doesn’t fully recover from a mishap because he still has some leftover MP damage.


Soresu review: (Mostly good ideas, 1 thing I don't understand or disagree with)
1) Spinning shield affect "block" (50% cost), do you mean saber block? If no, explain, if yes, I don't agree, Soresu has not just a good defense to help newbies, it's the perfect defense for skilled defenders (people who can parry and attack parry whenever they want, contrary to me) so it should have very good parry or riposte (attack parry) abilities, but not general blocking (that would be rather staff).

1) If you think about it, saber staff is more offense oriented than defense oriented because it’s awkward and hard to defend when you have a big vulnerable zone (the handle). So no, staff should not have a strong defense as you suggest. As for the 50% block cost, I was intending for it to include blocks against sabers as it would be an upgrade to its innate ability to reduce DP damage from blocking. Good for newbies, even better for advanced users. But if this is too powerful, then the auto-block upgrade doesn’t have to be as much as 50%, but still higher than the innate block reduction. These values are flexible so as to not make Soresu too defensively powerful, but still good enough to be of value for people to WANT to use it in gunner and saber battles alike.

Djem-so review: (I disagree on some things, and don't understand 1 thing)
1) You should not have a bonus when auto-blocking shots, but when swing blocking them! Djem so is an active and offensive style, you are always moving and swinging in it, contrary to Soresu who is more passive and defensive.
2) I don't understand at all the hammer part. (What I understood is that Attack fakes do 1 FP damage, and that attacks do 1 FP damage, and also that attack fakes do 2 FP damage. What the hell? And the DFA is always enabled... heeh?)
3) Also I don't think Djem-so should be fake-based. It's not confusing, it's quite fast, and strong swings, you repeat over and over, until your opponent dies tired. So normal attacks AND attack fakes, should both drain 1 FP to enemy, not ONLY attack fakes.

1) We can’t simulate a Djem So user actively reflecting shots behind him and to his side because we’ve only got a mouse and a silly cursor to use. That’s why this skill will be useful and simulates the Shien aspects of Form V. Reflection itself is aggressive.
2) Again, the INNATE ability of Djem So (without a passive, defensive, or offensive upgrade) is that its attack fakes can do FP damage. When you upgrade with the Hammer skill, attack fakes can now do MORE FP damage, and now even your attacks can deal FP damage. As for the DFA – I don’t know if it’s possible to code (it should considering all styles have the yellow DFA), but if it is, what I described is that un-upgraded Djem So does not have jump chopping DFA until you buy the attack skill.
3) It’s a fact that attack fakes deal more DP damage than a regular swing hence the other name for an attack fake is a power attack. That’s the point I want to emphasize; plus I don’t like the notion of an un-upgraded Djem So being able to only spam regular swings to tire someone out. When you upgrade with Hammer, then you can do FP damage with both types of attacks. Against an upgraded Djem So user, you better be good with parries and ripostes to prevent yourself from getting tired out.


Juyo review: (I disagree with several things, if not all, I'm a pain, right?)
1) I don't understand your first line.
2) I simply don't like the roll idea. (Sorry...)
3) I don't like the gunner mishap idea either. And lightning should not be reflectable, even if it's kinda done in EP3, I consider it as a mistake, and it's rather a force power than an ability of a style. (Really sorry...)
4) In fact, for released/unreleased, it should be like that IMO :
released : no chance to lock. 125% DP damage.
unreleased : just like the other styles' attack fakes.
So you can choose more DP damage rather than a lock chance.
5) Enabling DFA? what the hell? this is always enabled...

1) Un-upgraded Juyo users can deal minor DP damage from doing wind-up fakes when they’re close to an opponent.
2) The roll idea is a way to surprise and confuse the enemy. Here you are, all in your face with your opponent, then all of a sudden you roll to his side and strike him. It makes combat against a Juyo user interesting and unpredictable, not simply stat-wise.
3) Just like Makashi, Juyo is a Weaponmaster level style. If so many skill points are invested already to get this style, then the style itself and its upgrades should be worth the cost. The point is for the defense skill to be anti-gunner and anti-Force in a way that is slightly better than lower level styles. Even the reflect lightning aspect is conditional to how much FP you have, and I don’t want that aspect to be some omnipotent skill, either. Besides, how well you manually reflect is still dependent on your skill to time those reflections and on the probability of reflection.
4) Um…actually that’s what I wrote.
5) See #3 from Djem So section.


Current staff:
50% DP cost to block/parry/riposte enemy attacks. Swing costs 2 FP. Can hit 2 times with a swing.

Current duals:
No FP cost for direction changes in attack fakes. Swing costs 2 FP. Can hit 2 times with a swing.

OK, what I've found from looking through the big ol' changelog is the following:


Dual style has a base DP damage of 13.
Staff style has a base DP damage of 13.
The block cost of the staff and dual lunge moves is 75% of the normal DP.
Dual saber users can block saber attacks if they only have one of their sabers.
Dual sabers attacks cost 1 FP.
Staffs no longer get a DP reduction bonus for saber blocks.
The staff saber's one-handed spinning attack does 2x normal DP and breaks thru the block/Dodge defenses of fatigued players (just like the single saber lunge).
Staff sabers don't have extra DP costs for blocking rear attacks.
Staff attacks cost 1 FP.


Okay, to reiterate...the saber staff isn't all that good of a defensive weapon. It has difficulty parrying stabs, it has a big vulnerable spot in its defense because there's a huge handle. It's also called a Sith lightsaber sometimes because the nature of the saber staff is aggressive, frowned upon by Jedi. Its rapid attacks make it difficult to parry, and it can strike opponents in front AND back simultaneously. It's also rare because it's hard to master the awkwardness of using two deadly blades coming out of a single handle without amputating or skewering yourself. Staff looks like a pretty good defensive weapon because in the movies, Maul had to defend himself 2 on 1...but he's a master staff wielder and was able to defend himself for that long. A less skilled wielder wouldn't be able to use the saber staff to block and parry like he did with such ease – and even then there were a few blocks where Maul looked awkward and slightly unbalanced. The aim of the saber staff is thus “big body count.”

Translating this to OJP, staff should be something that against multiple opponents is very rewarding offensively but poor defensively (unless in the hands of a skilled user).

Staff:
Innate: Fast attack speed, unparried 2-hit (3-hit?) attack combos do +2 DP damage, +2 DP cost to auto-deflect, 1.2x DP drain from unparried lunges/stabs, DP damage 13 per blade.
Passive:
Defense:
Attack:

(still thinking)

Now Jar’Kai gives you the freedom of flexibility to have fluid offense and defense. Two blades can be used for offense, two blades can be used for defense, or one blade can be used for offense while the other one defends. A lot of room to play with here.

TheShaman
04-29-2007, 03:35 PM
Shii-cho:
Maybe when attacking and being parried or riposted or so, you should gain less MP because Shii-cho uses basic moves which won't put your balance into trouble.
Otherwise I don't know.

Makashi:
1) When I say Juyo should have this ability, it doesn't mean the Makashi has nothing instead. I just don't find it really apropriate, it's rather the confusing Juyo/Vapaad which does this. As I proposed earlier, maybe give an advantage to it when winning a lock, give MP to the enemy as well as the usual DP damage.
2) 3 MP is faaaaaar too much, its 20% of the bar, MP goes up to 15, not 100! (I got tricked by that earlier, too.) And what is this passive upgrade? You have to buy the things you are listing? I thought it was the style's predetermined properties.
3) All styles should have the same price, none should be more expensive, nor better, all styles should be as strong as others. 2 and 4 per attack?!! it's still damn much, you don't regen 1 MP per second, I think, and with makashi you can hit 2 or 3 times per second, it means that in 4 blows (16 MP), your enemy will be disarmed or knocked down! and after 2 blows he would be stumbled! that's terribly powerful. 1-2 seems fine, to me, but for Juyo... once again...
4) Okay, I understand the idea, but an attack fake doesn't cause a mishap, it can cause a saberlock, which can cause a mishap if you don't superbreak. That's a good idea, it's nearly like what I said before, losing a saberlock against a Makashi user should give you MP (which compensates the MP loss due to mishap suffering).

Soresu:
I'm against boosting all the defence abilities at once, I'll repeat myself, but Soresu should be the perfect defense for a skilled player. I like everything in your Soresu idea except the 50% cost for block in the spinning shield.

Djem-so:
1) Still, your thing fits more Soresu than Djem-so. Reflecting with auto-block is not, and will never be in any case, aggressive! It's defense. Aggressive would be swinging to make it accurate.
2) So this confirms, you want to add upgrades for the styles. I see, didn't expect that. I didn't understand that because I thought everything was in the properties, didn't know it was additional powerups. I see what you mean, kinda a good idea then, although IMO Djem-so should not be based on fakes much, but nevermind.
3) 3 FP damage would be a bit too much with hammer. 1 for normal attacks and 2 for fakes would be fine (I'd even rather 1, but the debate would be endless...)

Juyo:
1) DP damage with a windup fake? But the enemy doesn't even have to block... why this idea? It's weird... and the +1 MP/DP cost from blocks? is it for you or the opponent?
2) This is more Juyo than Vapaad, but I agree, it could be a good idea to make it more unpredictable.
3) I don't like the style level idea, all styles are equal, just not focussed on the same thing. The lightning reflect would be hard to do, too. It's not the fact that it would be anti gunner that bugs me, it's the fact that a shot causes mishap... try to find something else, like accurate reflection even behind you or something...
4) Yea, but no, you wrote 115%, it's not enough. And it was to recap, to make sure I understood.
5) OK. Good idea.

Staff:
This is still a problem for me since the only staff we see is used in a Juyo way... which is already for single. (Note: Maul was on the defense a lot. But that might be due to the 2v1)
What about making him un-disarmable? It would be pretty hard to disarm a staff user with 2 blades...

Dual:
No idea.
Dooku got rid of Anakin's second saber quickly, and Anakin wasn't skilled in using dual sabers.

Also, note about general DP damage of styles. Making them unique would be better.
(exemple: Djem so 18, Juyo 17, Shii-cho 16, Makashi 15, Soresu 14, Dual 13 per saber, Staff 12 per blade. Yes I think Soresu should do more, it's mostly two handed, contrary to dual, and dual can do 26 if you hit with both.)

Tanqexe
04-29-2007, 05:15 PM
Shii-cho:
Maybe when attacking and being parried or riposted or so, you should gain less MP because Shii-cho uses basic moves which won't put your balance into trouble.
Otherwise I don't know.

You gain MP from a successful swing. Successful swings making you gain slightly less MP may be the way to go.

Makashi:
1) When I say Juyo should have this ability, it doesn't mean the Makashi has nothing instead. I just don't find it really apropriate, it's rather the confusing Juyo/Vapaad which does this. As I proposed earlier, maybe give an advantage to it when winning a lock, give MP to the enemy as well as the usual DP damage.
2) 3 MP is faaaaaar too much, its 20% of the bar, MP goes up to 15, not 100! (I got tricked by that earlier, too.) And what is this passive upgrade? You have to buy the things you are listing? I thought it was the style's predetermined properties.
3) All styles should have the same price, none should be more expensive, nor better, all styles should be as strong as others. 2 and 4 per attack?!! it's still damn much, you don't regen 1 MP per second, I think, and with makashi you can hit 2 or 3 times per second, it means that in 4 blows (16 MP), your enemy will be disarmed or knocked down! and after 2 blows he would be stumbled! that's terribly powerful. 1-2 seems fine, to me, but for Juyo... once again...
4) Okay, I understand the idea, but an attack fake doesn't cause a mishap, it can cause a saberlock, which can cause a mishap if you don't superbreak. That's a good idea, it's nearly like what I said before, losing a saberlock against a Makashi user should give you MP (which compensates the MP loss due to mishap suffering).

1) If you read the Wookieepedia entry on Makashi:

Feints would also be commonly used to confuse or set-up their opponents for a trap, a tactic that Count Dooku commonly used in his duels during the Clone Wars. Precise footwork and movements were required for maintaining proper distance from the opponent during defense and/or when moving in for an attack. The blade manipulation required for this form was very refined and required intense focus. Timing, accuracy, and skill, rather than strength, were relied on to defeat one's opponent, and with a skilled practitioner, the results were extremely potent.

Even in the movies, you can see the quick and subtle angle changes that Dooku employs in the first Obi-Wan vs Dooku and Anakin vs Dooku duels. So Juyo isn't the only style where unpredictability is incorporated; they're just approached differently. Unlike Juyo, which is more free-form and kinetic, Makashi doesn't require any acrobatics and employs a passive-aggressive philosophy of speed, accuracy, and fine blade manipulation instead of strength. Thus Makashi should be more of an MP dealer. Giving Juyo MP damage in addition to its already high DP damage would be overkill.

2)You are thinking about this in terms of if someone doesn't know a thing about parrying. If the opponent parries then they don't get that mishap bump. Just like in the movies, it takes some skill to go against the duelist form. And I know the mishap bar's max is 15. I want the Makashi MP damage to be significant enough for someone to pay attention to their MP meter during the duel. It's an aspect that gets way underplayed in the current pace of combat.

3) No, the styles are not "equal" because there's no such metric to determine that. They all have different stats to begin with. The key is to balance the differences through tactics and skill. With each increasing Proficiency level the styles you acquire will have more drastic strengths and weaknesses. That's how I want to go about balancing the styles. It's a tier system, so if you want to purchase level 3 styles, then the strengths better be worth the skill point cost, but at the cost of weaknesses that you have to make up for with your own skill and strategies. BaseJKA was the same way, too. You start out with Yellow, which had no strengths or weaknesses, then Blue, which was fast, good against lots of people but didn't have much attack strength, and finally Red, which was slow as hell (liable to get you killed) but very powerful when it lands.

4) That's what I meant.


Soresu:
I'm against boosting all the defence abilities at once, I'll repeat myself, but Soresu should be the perfect defense for a skilled player. I like everything in your Soresu idea except the 50% cost for block in the spinning shield.


The 50% block cost is simply a boost upgrade for Soresu's innate ability to do that. Again, if that amount is too much, then it can be lowered until it's satisfactory. The aim is to give even newbies a slightly better chance of survival, but for a Soresu user to be a real tank, they have to master parries and ripostes.

Djem-so:
1) Still, your thing fits more Soresu than Djem-so. Reflecting with auto-block is not, and will never be in any case, aggressive! It's defense. Aggressive would be swinging to make it accurate.
2) So this confirms, you want to add upgrades for the styles. I see, didn't expect that. I didn't understand that because I thought everything was in the properties, didn't know it was additional powerups. I see what you mean, kinda a good idea then, although IMO Djem-so should not be based on fakes much, but nevermind.
3) 3 FP damage would be a bit too much with hammer. 1 for normal attacks and 2 for fakes would be fine (I'd even rather 1, but the debate would be endless...)

1) Soresu is a passive combat philosophy, so predominant deflection is more a Soresu trait. Bolt reflection is an aggressive act, and it is more a characteristic of Form V. And again, since we can't perfectly emulate the ability of a lightsaber wielder to be capable of reflecting bolts back in direction that they're not facing, this is the best way to do it. This is an aggressive defense, just not "player" active. If people feel like reflect should be boosted, then that can be included, but if you also bought Deflect 3, then you're already good enough to have one in two shots go back to the cross hair; more is overkill IMO.
2)Huh? the first thing I said before I launched into the saber style list was, "Each saber form has a skill you automatically start off with, plus a buyable passive skill, defense skill, and attack skill." Did you miss that? Regarding attack fakes, with the current setup they're not spammed as often as attack swings now (thank goodness). Without buying a skill, regular swings shouldn't have an FP drain effect already. What else are we left with? Attack fakes.
3) I never said anything about 3 FP damage. The upgrades are not cumulative, they replace the innate skills that an un-upgraded saber form has.


Juyo:
1) DP damage with a windup fake? But the enemy doesn't even have to block... why this idea? It's weird... and the +1 MP/DP cost from blocks? is it for you or the opponent?
2) This is more Juyo than Vapaad, but I agree, it could be a good idea to make it more unpredictable.
3) I don't like the style level idea, all styles are equal, just not focussed on the same thing. The lightning reflect would be hard to do, too. It's not the fact that it would be anti gunner that bugs me, it's the fact that a shot causes mishap... try to find something else, like accurate reflection even behind you or something...
4) Yea, but no, you wrote 115%, it's not enough. And it was to recap, to make sure I understood.
5) OK. Good idea.


1) Damage from windup fake is to make Juyo combat up close and personal. It simulates Juyo in that it's like tapping you with a light strike then sudden hitting you again with a hard slash. I'm trying to introduce features that will doesn't make Juyo's unpredictability dependent on stats but on the inherent skill of the player.
2) I don't recall ever talking about Vapaad...
3) You're at Weaponmaster level because you choose to focus on lightsaber combat. Even right now, no, not all styles are equal (like I said previously) because you need Offense III, a further 8 points, to get to Djem So, Makashi, and Juyo. But you're right, they're focused on different things. Juyo is inherently a rare and deadly form of mainly offensive combat; its free-form is a double edged sword requiring a lot of skill. Hence the increased penalty to bad defense (blocking and deflecting, forgot to mention that), which if you can correctly manual deflect then you're OK. If you can't parry well, then you're in for some trouble. But if you are good enough to be able to parry well and manual deflect well, your skill makes up for the inherent weakness. If you're skilled enough to use the skill upgrades to the fullest, then you'll be a lightsaber combat monster - but you'll still have some weaknesses that other stylists can exploit.

The lightning reflect is just an idea for a dedicated duelist (one who's invested so many skill points into lightsabers) to fight against Force users and gunners. Likewise causing mishap on gunners. Anyone else can come up with something to further that goal. If you don't want to invest in these skills then you can invest them in other things, like a Force power, some general saber skill, or guns 'n gadgets.

4)Oops, typo.


Staff:
This is still a problem for me since the only staff we see is used in a Juyo way... which is already for single. (Note: Maul was on the defense a lot. But that might be due to the 2v1)
What about making him un-disarmable? It would be pretty hard to disarm a staff user with 2 blades...

Yeah the reason why staff seemed defensive oriented is because of Maul's 2 on 1 position. Look at how he uses his staff when he's finally got Qui-Gon tired out and isolated.

Hm, staff can be un-disarmable, but perhaps one end can be destructible? I seem to recall that Force Mod III had a feature like that, unless I'm wrong. Perhaps attack swings not only affect the front of the player, but also the back? I.E. attack damage happens both front and back, since there are TWO blades. Slightly reduced DP damage from regular swings, but increased DP or FP cost to parries and ripostes? Still thinking.

Dual:
No idea.
Dooku got rid of Anakin's second saber quickly, and Anakin wasn't skilled in using dual sabers.

Also, note about general DP damage of styles. Making them unique would be better.
(exemple: Djem so 18, Juyo 17, Shii-cho 16, Makashi 15, Soresu 14, Dual 13 per saber, Staff 12 per blade. Yes I think Soresu should do more, it's mostly two handed, contrary to dual, and dual can do 26 if you hit with both.)

Dual should be easy to disarm because each saber only has one grip on it. Also, spin attacks do extra damage thanks to two sabers (I think this is already incorporated, not sure). Um, what else...I really want to play up the fluid offense-defense aspect but still give it some big weaknesses.

The damage values as they are are fine. Soresu's damage shouldn't do more, because the kinetic swing of dual blades will naturally do more damage, while Soresu's swings are very quick, not requiring much strength.

TheShaman
04-30-2007, 06:08 AM
I wont re-take everything step by step, this is doing too long posts...
In fact, your ideas are mostly good, they just need balancing (the MP given by Makashi etc...) the Soresu low cost in DP and other stuff like that, but this can always be done after, if we notice a style totally owns the others.

For balance issues, what you say is true, Juyo can't have the MP damage. Although, if you watch again the duel between Windu and Palpatine, you'll notice my MP idea was rather good. Palpy loses because of high mishap, if we translate it into OJP.
But that's tipically Vapaad, and in OJP we have Juyo, so making rolls easy-use and not MP giver can be understood too.

However, I still think the styles MUST be equal (You seem to think equal means "the same", it does NOT, equal means "the same value", which here means, each style has valuable boosts that the other styles don't have, none should be stronger, all should have the same price). Each level of Saber profeciency should allow you to choose 1 (any) of the 5 styles (for single of course, staff and dual = lvl 3 only).
And you must not care about what is equal or not right now, the style balance isn't finished yet! Styles are not equal right now cause it's based on Basejka, later, I hope it won't be anymore.

Also, when you say +x damage, it means an additional damage of x to what we have before, be careful with that. (You said Djem so attack fakes do 1 DP damage, and with hammer, they do +2 DP damage, this would mean 3 DP) If you want to say a new value instead, just say 2 DP damage, and not +2, it's much more clear.

Just so you know, this Juyo we have in OJP is more like Vapaad, watch the moves, they are based on Windu... if you didn't know that, you missed something.
And still, lightning reflect would be nearly impossible (or if done, very graphically ugly) in JKA, I guess.
You still don't get it with the mishap idea. It's not I don't want Juyo to have it, it's the idea itself, a shot causing a mishap, that is pretty stupid! (I wanted to keep that word away till now, but no choice it seems...)

OK enough of criticizing, it seems you won't get back on what you said.
Let's talk about staff and duals.

Yes I read that FM3 had it, but I never could make it happen.
That blade destruction could be hard to do, though, and that's rather a disadvantage, what good thing should it have, since it requires level 3?
Undisarmable, as I said.
I think the staff already strikes in front, on side, and behind sometimes.
With the super duper interpolation, I think the saber hits where you graphically see it, contrary to the Raven interpolation, so when you spin with staff, you hit all around you.
What do you mean with "Slightly reduced DP damage from regular swings, but increased DP or FP cost to parries and ripostes?" advantage or disadvantage? (please precise what you mean, give names such as 'for the enemy', 'for the staff user'...)

I really don't know for dual.

As for the DP damage, I don't agree, 2 handed > 1 handed. And Soresu is already very slow, it has loooooong transitions. And Dual can hit 2 times (most of the time), so consider it does 26 and not 13.

Maxstate
04-30-2007, 07:07 AM
No, it's not anything like Vaapad.
And this thread is about Special moves and not the styles' bonusses, guys.

TheShaman
04-30-2007, 10:31 AM
He started! well okay, and we'll discuss style bonus later anyway. First = bug fixes and hybrid balancement.
Then skills + style perks.
Right?

Maxstate
04-30-2007, 10:39 AM
I hope it'll be in that order. I could go for a single release just laden with some kind of fix for the hybrids!

razorace
04-30-2007, 07:45 PM
Max is correct. This needs to be another thread.

But, this IS the time for this sort of discussion. We gotta have a working concept before anyone can start on implimentation. TheShaman, how about you start a new thread with a summary of the current state of the style balancing?

Anyway, final point. Based on implimentation difficulty, I don't think we should have different catagories of perks for the individual saber styles. It would be much simplier to just have the standard 3 levels of skill and adjust our concepts to fit that. My suggestion is to have one skill for the lightsaber purchase (which comes free with the Shii-cho or staff/duals skill) and then have skills for each of the additional styles.

Tanqexe
04-30-2007, 08:18 PM
Shaman, you keep misunderstanding so many things that I write. For instance, what I mean by when I say the styles aren't "equal." When level 3 styles cost more points than level 1, that is not equal (lecturing me on the definition of equal was completely uncalled for). And of course I want style balancing; to say otherwise is asinine. But yes this discussion needs to be somewhere else, I didn't intend for this to be so off-track, although I think that special moves should be part of saber upgrades.

Can we split off part of this thread?

Max is correct. This needs to be another thread.

But, this IS the time for this sort of discussion. We gotta have a working concept before anyone can start on implimentation. TheShaman, how about you start a new thread with a summary of the current state of the style balancing?

Anyway, final point. Based on implimentation difficulty, I don't think we should have different catagories of perks for the individual saber styles. It would be much simplier to just have the standard 3 levels of skill and adjust our concepts to fit that. My suggestion is to have one skill for the lightsaber purchase (which comes free with the Shii-cho or staff/duals skill) and then have skills for each of the additional styles.

Razor, I'm kind of confused because I thought that that was what I was proposing? Lightsaber proficiency skill gives you lightsaber, how many and what kinds of styles you can use (3 progressive levels). Then for each style you have 3 buyable skills each. If you want to think about it in the standard skill progression:

passive = level 1, defense = level 2, attack = level 3

Unless by standard you mean having each level increase the potency of a skill?

razorace
04-30-2007, 09:43 PM
Oh, I thought you meant that you could pick the passive, defense, attack in any order.

TheShaman
05-01-2007, 06:06 AM
I thought the same, that you could buy any of the 3 if you want, or all the 3 if you have enough points.
Ok I'm going to start a new thread now, don't post about this here anymore please.

deuxhero
05-01-2007, 03:54 PM
would that mean that dual/staff users can pick an alternate style rather then being stuck with the default one?

razorace
05-01-2007, 04:17 PM
You'd still be stuck with the original staff/dual styles when using them that way, but you'll probably be able to choice its secondary styles at will.

deuxhero
05-06-2007, 11:44 PM
You'd still be stuck with the original staff/dual styles when using them that way, but you'll probably be able to choice its secondary styles at will.
thats what I was asking, thanks