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TheShaman
05-01-2007, 06:31 AM
So, here we go, the different saber styles need more special and unique things to be different playing ways. Feel free to post any suggestion, and we'll discuss it.

At the moment, the perks are:

Shii-cho:
• 15 DP damage
• 125% MP regen

Makashi:
• 14 DP damage
• 1 (or 2 maybe, not sure) MP dealt to the opponent for unparried attacks

Soresu:
• 12 DP damage
• Parrying DP cost of 75%

Djem-so:
• 17 DP damage
• 110% DP damage with attack fakes if opponent doesn't parry them

Juyo:
• 16 DP damage

Jar'kai (dual):
• 13 DP damage per saber
• Can still block when disarmed (1 saber left)
• No FP cost for attack fakes direction change

Staff (juyo? :S):
• 13 DP damage per blade
• No extra DP cost for blocking rear attacks (doesn't that apply to all styles with defense 3? If yes, then it's pointless. If no, I thought.)

TheShaman
05-01-2007, 07:06 AM
Changed my mind, removed that thing, check my latest post for my new ideas.

Maxstate
05-01-2007, 08:18 AM
I like most of it thus far, keep going guys.

Tanqexe
05-01-2007, 09:17 AM
Repost from the other thread that started this whole thing, with some minor adjustments:

I disagree that special features pertain to attack fakes only. We don't want to go back to attack fake spam-a-thon again. Special skills should promote a wide flavor of tactics instead of preferring that attack fake.

For Star Wars "realism" purposes, it does not make sense for someone using a lightsaber to be able to learn any one style first. All foundations of lightsaber combat come from Shii-Cho. All younglings and padawans know Shii-cho. And then you move on to other forms - Niman (which isn't here), Soresu, Ataru (which isn't here), and Shien/Djem So being most predominant. Advanced styles are very rare, requiring a LOT of focus on lightsaber combat training (lots of skill points investment if translated into OJP). These would be the rare styles - Juyo, Makashi, Jar'Kai, and saber staff.

-----
In the Force menu, instead of having Saber Offense/Defense, we can have a simple three-tier category:

Lightsaber Proficiency:
I. Initiate - Enable lightsaber use (Shii-cho), access to lightsaber menu and general saber skill upgrades
II. Knight - Enables use of up to 2 styles; Soresu, Djem So enabled
III. Weaponmaster - Enables use of up to 3 styles; Juyo, Makashi, Dual/Staff enabled

Now in the saber menu:

Top row will have the list of available styles. Selecting one style unhides the row of upgrades dealing with that style.

General saber skill upgrades:

Deflect:
I. Initiate - Pretty much Defense 1, particularly the time window between successful deflections; 180 degree deflection coverage; shots to rear 180 degrees do 150% DP damage; manual reflection goes to crosshair 15% of the time
II. Advanced - Defense 2, decreased time window between successful deflections; 270 degree deflection coverage; shots to rear 90 degrees do 150% DP damage; manual reflection goes to crosshair 30% of the time
III. Master - Defense 3, further decreased time window between successful deflections; 360 degree deflection coverage; manual reflection goes to crosshair 50% of the time

Dueling:
I. Initiate - -1 DP cost to parrying; 180 degree vulnerability to back hits, 150% damage
II. Advanced - -2 DP cost to parrying; 90 degree vulnerability to back hits, 150% damage
III. Master - -4 DP cost to parrying; no vulnerability to back hits

Acrobatics:
I. Initiate - -1 FP cost to normal jumps, cartwheels, flips, and wall-running
II. Advanced - -2 FP cost for acrobatics; successful flipping DFA causes slowbounce
III. Master - -3 FP cost for acrobatics; successful flipping DFA causes knockdown

---
-Some other general saber skills
---

Saber Forms

---

Each saber form, when selected, comes with automatic skill properties. In addition, it has a buyable passive skill, defense skill, and attack skill (tier levels 1, 2, and 3)

Shii-Cho
Innate – 125% MP regen, 15 DP damage swings

Passive – Harmony – 150% MP regen when standing still
II. Defense – Footwork – Timing crouch forces a stumble from knockdown-inducing attacks (rockets, clone rifle, flechette, lightning), cooldown time 5 seconds
Attack – Determination - Attack swings that force a block have a reduced MP gain by 1 MP.

Makashi
Innate – Unparried regular attacks do 3 (or 2 if 3 is too much) MP damage, 125% DP cost to auto-deflect, 14 DP damage swings

Passive – Flurry - Unparried regular attacks do 5 (3 or 4 if 5 is too much) MP damage
Defense – Master Riposte – Successful ripostes deliver 4 DP damage back at opponent
Attack – Precision – Unparried attack fakes only reduce 3 MP for opponent when lock results in mishap; holding down attack button during quick lock causes stumble if enemy has 5-9 MP, disarm if 10-15 MP

Soresu
Innate – -25% DP damage reduction from deflect/block, 12 DP damage swings
Passive – Spinning Shield – 50% DP damage reduction to deflect/block/parries/ripostes (the reduction for block can be reduced if feature is too powerful), manual deflect only requires fake instead of full swing
Defense – Resilience – Ripostes give back 20 DP if DP is in critical range
Attack – Opportunity - Saber swings do 150% DP damage on enemies in mishap events

Djem So
Innate – Unparried attack fakes do 1 FP damage, reduced MP regained from parries (-1? -2?), 17 DP damage swings
Passive – Perseverence – 125% DP regen when standing still
Defense – Bolt Reflect – Auto deflect can reflect 20% of shots back to gunner
Attack – Hammer – Unparried attacks do 1 FP damage, unparried attack fakes do 2 FP damage, enables leaping DFA (unparried hit results in heavy bounce)

Juyo
Innate – Fakes near opponent do 2 DP damage, 125% MP/DP cost from blocks, 16 DP damage swings
Passive – Wraith - Rolls don’t require jump to initiate; directional button + double tap crouch
Defense – Redirection - Successful manual reflect causes gunners to mishap according to their mishap range (simulating ferocious manual reflect that can knock people off their feet, you see this sometimes in the prequels); can manual reflect force lightning if FP is greater than enemy’s (not necessary, but an idea to defend against Force users - Juyo requires much skill point investment that may otherwise not be going to force powers depending on max skill point limit of game; also in Sith Lords Juyo had a bonus against Force users)
Attack – Chaotic Rhythm – Allows released attack fake swing; 115% increase of attack fake DP damage from unparried released attack, enables spinning DFA (unparried hit results in knockdown)

Saber Staff
Innate –
Passive –
Defense –
Attack –

Jar'Kai
Innate –
Passive –
Defense –
Attack –

TheShaman
05-01-2007, 09:52 AM
Well, in fact I'm against the fact that you buy progressively new things for the styles.
I prefer having "pure innate" perks, sorry.
Moreover, I really like this new idea I had of making attack fakes the speciality of each style.
It leaves a common thing in every style (attack) and makes a part unique (attack fake).
But well, that's only my point of view, we have to see what other people think, too.

Tanqexe
05-01-2007, 12:32 PM
If we're going down the road where we can buy upgrades for ranged weapons, there's no reason to not do the same for saber styles. Besides, upgrades give players a greater degree of customization. They can choose to spend points on skills that augment their style of lightsaber swordplay or they can spread out the points to gunner skills and Force skills.

In addition, this will be a reward to someone who's a dedicated swordsman, just as upgrades for guns will reward dedicated gunners. These buyable upgrades can also help balance hybrids without having to nerf any combination of our spectrum of gunners <--> Force/saberists in ways that having only innate perks will not be able to do. Here's why: assume that we're at a fixed skill point pool where your options of buying skills are limited.

Case 1: You only need to purchase saber proficiency, plus you get some nice perks automatically.

Hybrid buys only ONE style, the style that he wants (say...Djem So). He spends the rest of his points on Force and guns. Pure saberist doesn't invest in guns, so he puts it into saber proficiency 3, plus a bunch of Force skills. That Hybrid will be able to kick the pure saberist's ass from here on to Sunday, because he only had to invest x points on a lightsaber (style that he prefers), and he can stick the rest on ranged weapons and some Force protection. The pure saberist gets blasted from a distance with accurate weapons fire, and when he gets close, the hybrid matches the saberist's coded advantages. Tell me if that's even remotely balanced.

Case 2: You have to invest additional skill points to get to certain styles (which have their innate strengths and weaknesses), and you can upgrade them.

Hybrid doesn't want to spend too many points on saber skills. He gets, say, level 2 proficiency (Shii-cho and Djem So), but can't spend points on the style upgrades because he wants to get guns and Force protection. The pure saberist invests in level 2 proficiency, some Force skills, and pours the rest into the style upgrades to Djem So level 3. Now, the pure saberist goes after the hybrid. Hybrid shoots saberist, saberist manages to get within CQB range, hybrid switches to saber as well. Because the saberist is more highly trained (more skill points invested in "mastering" the style), he's rewarded for going the route of a pure saberist. Hybrid still has decent perks inherent in the style to defend himself and attack with, but because of the pure saberist's dedicated investment, he has the combat advantage, as it should be.

I want to reiterate that making only attack fakes the specialties of each style will make for rather boring combat. People will just keep trying to attack fake you in order to use their perks, instead of trying more creative approaches to combat. The switch away from having atk + alt atk to riposte happened for a reason, and the attack fake spamming was a big part of it.

TheShaman
05-01-2007, 02:30 PM
This isn't interesting anymore, each of us are fighting for their own ideas, we need other people.
You are right on a few things, in your version, hybrids would need to spend more points to get full perks, that's true.
But on others, I consider my version better, for the style choosing system, and the custom fakes.
This specialization of fakes and not of rest gives something unique to OJP, the attack fakes are the particular things of the styles.

What I don't like in your purchasable saber skills is that the newcomer will be like "OMG what is all this buttons? ok i'm gonna play mb2 or fm3, it's better... and easier"
OJP lacks of players, if we don't want all the new ones (if there are some...) to run away as soon as they open the player menu... we should keep it a bit more simple.

Also, don't forget that your massive things to buy are not the only way to balance hybrids. My knockdown system will help alot if it gets implemented, and the slowdown/jump malus due to weapon carry will sure help too.

Tanqexe
05-01-2007, 04:17 PM
Um, it's not as frightening as staring at all of the buttons like we do have now.

To prove my point on that, I did a quick mock-up (sorry bjuster, I bastardized your menu pic for expediency):

Initiate (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v493/tanqexe/OJP/Initiate.jpg)
Knight (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v493/tanqexe/OJP/Knight.jpg)
Weaponmaster (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v493/tanqexe/OJP/Weaponmaster.jpg)

Edit: really tired, messed up the Knight one - there aren't supposed to be any skill bubbles in the Djem So row except for the unnumbered bubble that serves as a selector

See? Doesn't look too bad, does it? No massive things to buy.

Almost every aspect of OJP's saber system is unique in some way - even regular attack swings because you have almost complete control of your swings! Attack fakes are only one part of the system, and the key is to not make people focus on using that one part of the system to be special. These upgrades are intended to augment the kind of playing style and mentality that each saber form represents. If you take away all the different style animations and replace each with the same set of animations, what are you left with that you can easily identify is a certain playing style?

Knockdown system + encumbrance system will balance out hybrids by nerfing their freedom of movement. In addition to that, skill upgrades will balance hybrids out by not nerfing them, but beefing up Jedi and gunners. In the end they'll all help, I think, while adding greater dimension of play and customizability for everyone.

Wytchking
05-01-2007, 06:27 PM
I personally agree with tanqexe and think it may really help with hybrid balancing. I do, however, wonder about how long this ould take to implement.

razorace
05-01-2007, 06:37 PM
Ok, I can contribute then. Sorry it takes so long for me to sound off. I've been actually trying to read the thread all the way thru before commenting.

Anyway, my main point is that we really need to be selective about which new skills we add. It literally takes about half an hour to add just the button function for just ONE skill. And that's before we even add the code for the skill's actual behavior.

As for the actual layout of the styles, it would be much easier to just make each style have a seperate SP cost instead of having a certain number of styles based on your Saber Offense level.

In fact, I'd suggest that we remove Saber Offense and just have style skills where Shii-Cho is required before the other styles appear/become available. This also allows us to make the styles cost different amounts of SP and not have to worry so much about 100% style balance.

As for staff/duals, I can see us making them be seperate styles as well...as long as we force them to use only a single blade until they're able to learn their staff/dual style. As a plus, this could probably allow single blade users to use the dual/staff style (which is sometimes requested).

Also, I like the idea of each style having 3 levels of skill, but I think the benefits should be more gradual. IE, +1 FP @ level 1, +1 FP @ level 2, etc. This is more realistic and prevents issues where the good elements of a style are only available at level 3.

Tanqexe
05-01-2007, 07:19 PM
Max and I have talked about this at some point, that we should limit the number of styles. He prefers 2, and I think 3 is a good number. Having to potentially cycle through a bunch of styles to get to the one you want can be an annoyance. Plus limiting the number of styles forces a player to choose his strategy instead of spreading out a bunch of points on style skills at high skill point levels. That was one of my concerns and why I approached selection via proficiency levels. This would also offset the theoretically incredible capabilities of the four rare styles by making then inaccessible until you learned another style. IIRC in the Star Wars universe a requirement of Juyo was that you had to have mastered other saber styles...you had to master Niman, which took bits of previous forms, before you learn Jar'kai, and I dunno about staff, but it's a rare combat style for a reason. Makashi seems like you have to at least have some knowledge of other styles because you're going to be dueling against them. But anyway, if this can be done in a simpler way, I'm all for it.

By single blade dual/staff style, do you mean people using the dual/staff animations while using only one blade?

Yeah, gradual benefits would be easier to code - still think, though, that if the skill of each level is highly beneficial and each upgrade is increasingly better than the last (but boosts a different aspect of the style), that might be more interesting in the long run than having increasing stat boosts. In the end, though, it's up to the community - I'm just here to promote one idea and give reasons for why people may find it immensely rewarding.

Code-wise, I think that putting in the knockdown/encumbrance system for hybrid balancing should come first. When it comes time to tackle saber upgrades, it'd be a good idea to begin by building the saber style selection in one version, then introduce generable saber skill upgrades in the next version, and finally put in place the style upgrades.

razorace
05-01-2007, 08:04 PM
- Well, style number limits would be a pain to code. People wouldn't have to buy more than 2 or 3, especially since getting all of them would be costly.

- Yes, I'm talking about using dual/staff animations while using one blade.

- err, ok. My impression had been that encumbrance wasn't that high of a priority.

JRHockney*
05-01-2007, 11:25 PM
I don't have much time to read through everything thoroghly or say much, but jut a few things:

I like tanqexes ideas of multiple levels for the styles too. I think I like the encumbrance thing, but I don't like how big of a word it is...:p

Makashi's attack fakes deal 1 (or 2 maybe) MP damage if not parried.


That wouldn't be useful at all. I actually thought about making makashi do 3 MP damage for unparried swings previously in my code because it hardly made a difference even with normal swings.

Defense – Master Riposte – Successful ripostes deliver 4 DP damage back at opponent

Maybe. 4 DP wouldnt really make any difference though....but too much would be a very bad thing.

As for The single duel and single staff, I like the idea of adding those. Single duel will make a good ataru, though it doesn make seven forms sense to turn into form zero (duel sabaer I think)...but who cares! :p I'm sure max could come up with some interesing anim replacements for those as well.

TheShaman
05-02-2007, 10:50 AM
Well, the whole thing is good, I was just afraid it would take too much time to implement all that and add so many skills for lightsaber skills, and also I thought it would be on the force window, by the way, how do we know how much it costs to go through profeciency levels? we don't see it on your screenshots, we just see the current level, not the points spent/to spend.

As I said, it's all pretty good, but has to be balanced I think.

razorace
05-02-2007, 02:37 PM
I think current menu setup only tells you the amount of remaining skill points you have.

TheShaman
05-03-2007, 01:29 PM
Yes but you know what you spent on every power (2, 4, 8 etc...) but here you don't know how many you spent on the profeciency, according to what I've seen. I think profeciency should work as a regular power (see the 3 bubbles with the cost), maybe put it on top of the list.

Tanqexe
05-03-2007, 02:06 PM
In the Force menu, instead of having Saber Offense/Defense, we can have a simple three-tier category:

Lightsaber Proficiency:


That's why it wasn't there. But if it's better on the saber menu, then it can be there. It doesn't really make a difference, really.

Jon: Max did make a new Ataru animation...too bad it's not very rewarding at the moment to code in a new style, with buyable skills playing Ataru might be pretty fun for you, you hopping jackrabbit.

Yeah it doesn't make sense to implement saber skills all at once, we'd be waiting a while. That's why it'd be a good idea to get to the big picture in incremental stages per upcoming version (1. saber proficiency/style limits if we can do it that way or individually buyable saber styles, 2. general saber skills, then 3. style skills). I wish I could help code this, but making videos and doing graphics is all I'm good for at the moment, at least until I have time to learn to model and skin again.

TheShaman
05-04-2007, 12:23 PM
Max made an Ataru anim? w00t w00t ! Pawns. Watch out with the freezeing that happened (still happens with Makashi) with Juyo and Makashi. And who are you based on? Yoda's Ataru is like impossible to do in JKA, he jumps too much, maybe Qui Gon's?

OK back to topic:

What about making Juyo have a reduction of DP cost to perform a body dodge?
it costs 30 for all at the moment, I think.
Maybe make it of 25 (or 20 if you think it doesn't change much) for Juyo, in Tanq's progressive system it would be either as innate or as defense. I'd say instead of the current defense thing, which is probably hard to do for lightning reflection, and I'm still against the deflected shot that makes gunners have mishap... if it's even possible to do.

TheShaman
06-07-2007, 07:28 AM
OK, I've thought a lot about these ideas, I've made a mix of what I like here and there with a few new things.


A few general things:

-Base DP damage-
Shii-cho: 15
Makashi: 14
Soresu: 13
Shien/Djem-so: 17
Juyo/Vapaad: 16
Dual: 12
Staff: 11

-Concerning blocks, parries, etc.-
Attack fakes deal 125% of normal DP damage.
Parrying (and attack parrying) costs 50% of normal DP cost to block.
Parrying an attack gives 3 MP to opponent.
Parrying an attack fake gives 6 MP to opponent.
Blocking an attack gives 1 MP to oppnent.
Blocking an attack fake gives 0 MP to opponent.
Attack parrying does not give any MP to opponent, it just "applies" the MP in a forced mishap.
Running swings deal 150% of normal DP damage.

-Concerning deflect-
Defense level:
0) Deflects randomly in 180° (vertical and horizontal, a half sphere in fact)
1) Deflects randomly in 90°
2) Deflects randomly in 45°
3) Deflects randomly in 22.5°
All of this is according to where from the shot came, 90° doesn't mean 90° randomly around crosshair, but 90° randomly where the shot came from (how the hell would you deflect a shot in your back and make it go in front of you? o_O')

Manual deflections (by swinging, AND hitting the shot with saber) have 50% chance of reflecting the shot right in the crosshair, other wise, it just uses the randomness above.

Blocking a shot costs 5 DP.

-Conerning attacks-
To me, there are 3 "stages", I don't know if it's correct, but it's the way I see
it:
Start
Swing
Transition


Shii-cho:
1) Transition time of swings is halved
2) MP gain is reduced of 1 (any situation)
3) DP cost to block saber swings and shots is reduced of 1

Makashi: DP cost to block shots is increased of 1, attack fakes deal 1 MP to the defender
1) Start time of swings is halved
2) When the opponent is attack parried, he doesn't get the MP reduction
3) Attacks and attack fakes give 2 MP to the defender if he doesn't parry

Soresu:
1) DP cost to block shots is reduced of 2
2) Parrying and attack parrying DP cost is halved.
3) Attacking an opponent in a slow bounce, heavy bounce, or stumble deals 150% DP

Shien/Djem-so:
1) 150% of the other styles' swing speed (does not affect start time and transition time)
2) Deflections are more accurate of X (I'd need to know how much it is right now)
3) Attacking an enemy makes him lose 1 FP if he doesn't parry

Juyo/Vapaad:
1) DP cost to dodge is reduced of 5
2) Running swings do 200% DP damage (instead of 150%)
3) Released attack fakes deal 125% of normal attack fake damage

Dual: Low DP damage, but can hit 2 times with 1 attack
1) Never fully disarmed
2) No extra cost for attack fakes direction changes
3) Can parry while swinging (Because with 2 sabers you can have defense and attack at same time)

Staff: Low DP damage, but can hit 2 times with 1 attack
1) Cannot be disarmed (at all)
2) Can block all around for no extra DP cost
3) Allows chain swings: everytime you attack the opponent and he doesn't parry, you get 1 extra attack point (AP) which is added to the next DP damage, it is cumulative.

Maxstate
06-07-2007, 07:40 AM
I'd rather we just change the current ones slightly, buff them for level 2 and instate a nerf. No need to stress out acenukka before he goes.

TheShaman
06-07-2007, 12:53 PM
Then let's keep this for later, just a little for now.

But why buff them for level 2? There are 3 levels...

razorace
06-07-2007, 07:29 PM
TheShaman, I liked a lot of what you're suggesting, but I think we need to be very careful about the percentages by which we adjust animation speeds. Based on the balancing and realism, I don't think we can get way with more than a -/+%25 difference in speed.

Here's the summary of what the internet says about saber styles:

Shii-Cho:
Pro:
- multiple opponents with blasters
- disarming/destroying an opponent's weapon
Con:
- solo lightsaber opponent
- Makashi is designed to counter this style's disarm
My Suggestion:
- MP damage on unparried attacks
- Less DP for bolt blocking
- Reduced/No DP penalty for blocking rear attacks

Makashi:
Pro:
- relies on parries, thrusts, and small, precise cuts to wear down opponent
- Counters disarm/destroy moves
- attack and defend with minimal effort, while his opponent tires himself out
- Uses feints and trickery to create an opening in opponent's defenses.
Con:
- speed and accuracy, not about strength
- Can't really handle heavy attacks (like from Shien/Djem-So or from multiple enemies/attacks).
My Suggestion:
- Lower DP for parries
- Attack fakes are cheaper
- Lower DP attack damage
- Should cost more Skill Points
- Lower FP usage

Soresu:
Pro:
- Ultimate Defensive Stance
- Designed for vs blaster combat
Con:
- Less saber power and range since saber held back for defense
My Suggestion:
- Weak DP attack damage
- Less DP cost for blocking and parrying
- Lower FP usage for defense

Djem So:
Pro:
- Powerful attacks
- Pushing back the opponent with heavy parries
- More focused on returning bolt attacks back to their origin
Con:
- Lack of mobility
- Requires a lot of energy to do
My Suggestion:
- Increased probability of reflected bolt attacks
- Slight pushback to opponents when parried
- Higher DP attack damage
- Should cost more Skill Points
- Higher MP cost when parried
- Higer FP cost to swing

Juyo:
Pro:
- Unpredictable
- Heavy hitting
Con:
- Hardest to learn style
My Suggestion:
- High Skill Point cost
- High DP attack damage
- attack fakes are cheaper

(There's no much on the internet about the staff and dual saber styles so I'm winging it)
Staff:
Pro:
- Two blades
- Easy to block attacks in any direction
Con:
- Lots of movement to use
My Suggestion:
- High Skill Point cost
- Higher FP cost to swing
- No DP penalty for blocking rear attacks

Dual (Jar'Kai):
Pro:
- Two blades
- Can't loose both blades
Con:
- Hard to learn style
- Loose grip on saber handles
My Suggestion:
- High Skill Point cost

Tanqexe
06-07-2007, 10:44 PM
There was a guy at JKFiles who left this comment, and I though some parts I disagree with, he does make some points:

You're basically re iterating what I said JR, I've been following your styles and perks threads... and the play style by PLAYERS is what differentiates... not the styles themselves... and that is not what combat with FLAIR and STYLE is about. What make games like SF and Tekken was that in ADDITION to a player having a certain mentality, the MOVES and STYLE of each character also influenced and helped to create nuance and individuality. I don't play Armor King the way I play Lei WuLong, I don't play Ruy the way I play Guile; irrespective of whether or not I'm playing them aggressively or turtle-ing up or attempting something in between.... The current version of OJP has very little DIFFERENTIATION of CHARACTER and UNIQUENESS between stances or the seven "ways" if you guys end up going that route. You need unique moves for each stance, with unique properties, and a method that makes each style obvious from the get go rather the basic/generic "this uses double FP but leads to an auto slowbounce when successful"... If every fighter ion SF looked and played like ryu but one was a LITTLE faster or a LITTLE stronger... it's not COMPELLING. With every GOOD combat game balance has taken a secondary role to style and truth of character. VF isn't balanced, Tekken isn't balanced and SF was pretty much broken in the equality dept from the get go.. Yet people played and continue to play because it's interesting it's fun and it's COMPELLING and smart playing is rewarded... which is something you guys need to work on... because only the good playing is rewarded seems to be fleshed out.

Don't let the universe be your spokesman. The reason why Duality and Ryan vs Dorkman and Art of the Saber get hella dls is they use the universe as a backdrop that they take further, which personally I don't think you guys have done yet. At this point you might as well call it "Generic Light Saber Simulation" 009u.

Only increasing and decreasing FP/DP costs just doesn't seem to cut it in making each style "feel" different. I know we have time constraints here, but we should consider what kind of unique features different styles provide can make a player really want to use it. Varied skill point costs for styles should mean that the styles with the highest cost should have very rewarding perks for trading in so many points. Example: cheaper attack fakes won't really be worth the extra 3 or 4 points for purchasing Juyo.

Changing the animation speeds...I dunno, I like the pace of battle now where all the style swings are the same speed.

The 200% DP damage run swing is already in as a complementary feature of the insta-kill from getting hit while doing running swings.

JRHockney*
06-07-2007, 11:07 PM
I kind of like those ideas razor, though I think the following changes/additions should be made:

Shii cho - I still like the slightly faster mp gain

Juyo - award FP points (5 or 10) for doing special things like kick knockdowns, conversion disarms and MP maxouts. Since its the hardest to learn and costs the most, and there is no good style for earning back some FP, I think this is a fair idea.

Makahi - I still like the MP damage for unparried attack with this style.

Ataru (single dual) - No or less FP cost for backflips, cartwheels and arials (yellow DFAs). Sightly stronger swings. If possible, give this version of dual single saber block anims. Higher point cost

Niman - (single staff) Dead accurate deflection always. less DP damage attacking. less DP cost for deflection. Higher point cost.

Staff - No saberlocks on you unless you have critical DP or high MP. No back extra back damage. less attack damage. Running hits on you do less DP damage (maybe x 1.5). 2 FP to attack (maybe, I remember the last time we made it cost more, it made it useless). Costs more. Kicks cost no or little FP or can parry while kicking. Maybe Juyo as prerequisite (since staff really is juyo anyways)

Dual - More attack damage. greater MP cost for getting parried and all unparried attacks against you do 1 mp (or more with makashi) Faster or no parry recovery time. less DP for deflection. Higher cost. Always have one saber when disarmed. Maybe Niman as prerequisite since the seven forms thing says more people learn that first.

Maxstate
06-08-2007, 04:16 AM
Razor:
I really like those ideas, but we should buff AND nerf their perks and cons a lot if they want to make any difference. Also you shouldn't be able to get them all.

Tanq:
I've been saying this for a while too but this guy expects too much out of an old system that was never meant to have any kind of fighting. I think we did an excellent job, I still use Juyo differently than I use Djem-so, but sometimes you just 'feel' something isn't right. The buffs (and future nerfs) need to be large enough to make a difference so I know which style I'm using without looking at my hud, the styles should be cheap enough to be able to get, but expensive to master and expensive enough to not be a clickfest after you've earned some points.

Hocks, staff is not really Juyo, staff is whatever style the user is using currently, your Niman sounds more like a Djem-So/Shien combo.
Juyo should not be about regenerating FP. If any style should fit that moniker it should be Niman as it's the balanced and force-resistant style.

JRHockney*
06-08-2007, 07:41 PM
Hocks, staff is not really Juyo, staff is whatever style the user is using currently, your Niman sounds more like a Djem-So/Shien combo.
Juyo should not be about regenerating FP. If any style should fit that moniker it should be Niman as it's the balanced and force-resistant style.

ARRgh, Yeah your right. I read the wrong form! :swear: Although the staff only , really appears with Juyo in the movies. combined probably with dunmoc or whatever its called.

yeah Razor, what he said. reverse those :p

razorace
06-08-2007, 08:47 PM
You shouldn't be able to get them all? Why not? if they spend the points...

Maxstate
06-08-2007, 08:48 PM
Because then we're back at square one. The whole buyable style thing stemmed from the discussion of limiting them to 2 or 3 (mastery) per user unless otherwise bought.

bjusterbaarlik
06-09-2007, 07:33 AM
I did a quick mock-up (sorry bjuster, I bastardized your menu pic for expediency):
Do not worry, your punishment will come eventually... :smash:

Anyway, let me start with the useful and contributing part of my post.

I mostly agree with the ideas RazorAce posted, as those seem to be just what we need. I also agree with Max in that we should make the pros and the cons of each style really stand out, so buff the pros and nerf the cons here and there mainly.

There are a few things I would like to add:

Makashi: I don't know if there should be any additional MP damage added at all. Since this style is about speed, agility, flexibilty and technique, I'd say we'd convert the MP damage to DP damage. Makashi is one of the best styles to use against other lightsaberists, but should be next to useless against blasters. So, as an added con, I would suggest perhaps 150% DP usage when deflecting blaster bolts.

Soresu: This ultimate defensive style should be the opposite of Makashi when it comes to fighting enemies with guns. Perhaps 50% DP usage when deflecting blaster bolts and a higher chance (75%, opposed to 50%) of deflecting it to where your crosshair aims to when using manual deflection.

Djem-So: I am not to keen on this style, but I find it weird that this one actually has an increased deflection probability in RazorAce's list instead of Soresu. Also, the lack of mobility should make a Jedi/Sith using this style walk a tad bit slower than usual and it should probably have an increased FP cost for doing acrobatic moves.

Furthermore, I agree with Max again on the fact that you should not be able to get them all. I think you should be able to get Shii-Cho and 2 other styles. A nice idea might be to make one new (read: any) style available with a 40 or 50 experience point threshold. So, at the beginning, one might only be able to learn Shii-Cho and one or two more styles, while later, when passing the 50 XP mark, the player can buy an additional style. Note that 50 is just a number, you could even make it 100 if you want.

TheShaman
06-09-2007, 11:52 AM
Soresu is defensive against blasters, which means it focuses on keeping your self alive, not on killing the opponents, whereas Shien/Djem-so focuses on killing your opponent (gunner), that's why Soresu shouldn't be more accurate, but should cost less DP to deflect, and Djem-so be more accurate, but usual price.

Maxstate
06-09-2007, 11:55 AM
Soresu is defensive against blasters, which means it focuses on keeping your self alive, not on killing the opponents, whereas Shien/Djem-so focuses on killing your opponent (gunner), that's why Soresu shouldn't be more accurate, but should cost less DP to deflect, and Djem-so be more accurate, but usual price.
Indeed, Soresu can take a shi'iteload of blasterfire and deflect it all away easily - just like saber attacks. However Djem-so/Shien can probably take less consecutively while being able to reflect most of them back at the opponent with the means of killing them.

TheShaman
06-09-2007, 11:58 AM
RazorAce, what do you mean with "Lower FP usage" for Makashi and Soresu?
And do you mean Juyo should have no extra FP cost for attack fakes? (like dual now)

Tanqexe
06-09-2007, 05:31 PM
A lot of the recent suggestions are variations on what I've already suggested in the 3rd post of this thread - buffing/nerfing style strengths/weaknesses, making some styles more expensive on a tiered system, etc.

Maybe we should just hold a poll, seems like they're very much in fashion these days :)

razorace
06-09-2007, 05:50 PM
I don't think we should restrict the number of allowed styles. If someone wants to be a blade master, that's fine with me. :)

TheShaman, maybe Lower FP usage should mean the blocking shouldn't cost FP to use. For Makashi, this might mean lower FP for swings as well. And yes, I'm guessing that attack fakes should be free.

TheShaman
06-10-2007, 06:43 AM
But blocking doesn't take FP, unless you are fighting a Djem-so user...
And swings cost 1 FP... making it less is hard.
What about making Djem-so drain 2 FP per swing (since it costs 2 FP to attack)
and make Soresu and Makashi only lose 1 FP when blocking Djem-so?

Also, if I understood what you meant, you want Shii-cho to give MP to the enemy, instead of Makashi?

bjusterbaarlik
06-11-2007, 09:27 AM
I think it would be better if Djem-So attacks do MP damage to the enemy if they are unparried. Makashi should then be doing (additional) MP damage to the enemy if they succesfully parry an enemy attack.

TheShaman
06-11-2007, 09:37 AM
No Djem-so should not give MP, I disagree, Djem so tires the opponent, draining FP is the best for it. Makashi shouldn't have very high DP damage, but maybe MP damage (I also thought about giving MP damage to Juyo before, but since it already has high DP damage, it's a bad idea), and what about Shii-cho? I think I've heard Razor talk about some MP damage caused by Shii-cho. Waiting for response...

razorace
06-11-2007, 04:32 PM
But blocking doesn't take FP, unless you are fighting a Djem-so user...
And swings cost 1 FP... making it less is hard.
What about making Djem-so drain 2 FP per swing (since it costs 2 FP to attack)
and make Soresu and Makashi only lose 1 FP when blocking Djem-so?

Also, if I understood what you meant, you want Shii-cho to give MP to the enemy, instead of Makashi?

Well, the problem I see with this is that every player has 100 FP, so having equal FP drain for block/attack doesn't help you very much. Maybe we should leave it at higher DP drain and leave it at that.

And yes, I'm suggesting that Shii-Cho should add MP because it's specifically designed to attempt to disarm your oppenent.

Maxstate
06-11-2007, 06:46 PM
And yes, I'm suggesting that Shii-Cho should add MP because it's specifically designed to attempt to disarm your oppenent.
That's Makashi :p

Maybe we should lose the names and just use the Form names?
That also reinforces the idea of using a form and creating your own style to it.
:)

madcatmach2
06-11-2007, 09:04 PM
i prefure the names as with FMIII i would forget what style went with what # and it got kinda confusing

razorace
06-11-2007, 09:33 PM
That's Makashi :p

Maybe we should lose the names and just use the Form names?
That also reinforces the idea of using a form and creating your own style to it.
:)
I think style names are easier to remember than a number.

And yes, I'm actually talking about Shii-Cho (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Shii-Cho).

JRHockney*
06-11-2007, 10:08 PM
I think style names are easier to remember than a number.

And yes, I'm actually talking about Shii-Cho (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Shii-Cho).

Oh, Wookipidia, I see where your going with this. Fine with me. However, I do still think you should make a Niman and ataru out of single staff and single dual. it should probably be as follows:

Niman - award FP and MP points (5 or 10) for doing special things like kick knockdowns, conversion disarms and MP maxouts OR just make it have have slightly faster MP regen and FP regen. Since this is a balanced form and there is no good style for earning back some FP or MP with your ideas, I think this is a fair idea. This would be its only perks.

Ataru (single dual) - No or less FP cost for backflips, cartwheels and arials (yellow DFAs). Sightly stronger swings since its a power/speed style. If possible, give this version of dual single saber block anims. Higher point cost

Heres my ideas for staff and duel again:

Staff - No saberlocks on you unless you have critical DP or high MP. No back extra back damage. less attack damage. Running hits on you do less DP damage (maybe x 1.5). 2 FP to attack (maybe, I remember the last time we made it cost more, it made it useless). Costs more. Kicks cost no or little FP or can parry while kicking. Maybe Juyo as prerequisite (since staff really is juyo anyways)

Dual - More attack damage. greater MP cost for getting parried and all unparried attacks against you do 1 mp (or more with makashi) Faster or no parry recovery time. less DP for deflection. Higher cost. Always have one saber when disarmed. Maybe Niman as prerequisite since the seven forms thing says more people learn that first.

Finally, I just had an idea for force rage- - Speed up attacks a bit, higher DP damage for both them and you (since your defense suffers), 20 fp cost to start and 2 or 3 FP for each swing. Also, because Juyo is also Vaapad, Maybe make it so that a juyo person fighting a force rager moves at the same speed, or if thats too hard, make parries and attack parries cause the force rager to have longer transitions and longer slowbounces.

Maxstate
06-12-2007, 06:39 AM
I think style names are easier to remember than a number.

And yes, I'm actually talking about Shii-Cho (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Shii-Cho).
If you mean:


One of the marks of contact, sun djem, was a goal of early Form I duelists, as disarming or destroying the opponents' weapons could ensure victory without causing injury, which was always a Jedi objective.

Is followed directly by:


Form I, like its succeeding forms, included the following basic techniques and concepts:

attack, a set of attacks aimed at different body zones
parry, a set of blocks to thwart any attack in the specified body zones
body target zones (1 - head, 2 - left arm, 3 - right arm, 4 - back, 5 - left leg, 6 - right leg)

Which means that it wasn't actually meant as a perk or main goal of the skill more than it was meant as training to attack more specific places on a dueler's body.

TheShaman
06-12-2007, 06:59 AM
Oh dear, why no FP drain? I found that idea very cool for Djem-so... :S
And yes, I'm for removing the names, and just displaying :
I
II
III
IV
V
VI? (If only...)
VII
Dual
Staff

bjusterbaarlik
06-12-2007, 07:22 AM
Please, keep the style names, I don't want to go back to the stone age again with "strong style", "fast style" etc.

TheShaman
06-12-2007, 07:29 AM
It's not about that, instead of displaying a name, which is sometimes wrong, it displays the form number, nearly the same, except it makes less mistakes.

Tanqexe
06-12-2007, 08:28 AM
I don't think it'd be a good idea to have Shii-Cho cash in on MP. For one thing, the article states that Shii-Cho doesn't offer many techniques in dueling against lightsabers, and it's not really a saber form that has particular strength against saber duelists. I still contend that Makashi is more suitable to having attacks that do MP damage because it's bred for lightsaber dueling, and MP has become a really big factor in lightsaber duels. Shii-Cho's the foundation form and easiest to purchase, so it really shouldn't have perks that are as powerful as cashing in on mishaps.

The perks need to supplement and boost the combat philosophies associated with each form so that someone who fights with a particular philosophy can prefer to choose to use that form because it suits his style of play. With increased cost the forms should also have a greater gap between strengths and weaknesses, i.e. most expensive styles should have great strengths at the cost of some significant weaknesses, leaving it up to the player to use skill to cover for those weaknesses in a fight.

*(On a side note, maybe we should get rid of Saber Defense altogether and make those bonuses implicit with a saber form)*

The numbers next to the form names refer to the order of how much styles will cost (1 being lowest). Other than base damage, the other perks increase with level.

#1 Shii-Cho

Philosophy: Foundation form, no-nonsense emphasis on basics, short on exotic techniques.


14 DP damage (decent offense)
MP regen (solid foundation of footwork)
Deflection rate and coverage improvement per level (i.e. like the current Saber Defense) (decent defense)


Pros: You get to buy all the basic necessities of saber combat at cheap point cost, get nice defense against multiple enemies with increasing levels. Analogous to buying pistol for gunners. Plus 14 DP damage per strike is a pretty decent basic attack damage especially considering the ability to combo well in this style.
Cons: Nothing remarkably exotic to counter more expensive styles.

Note: Shii-Cho is the basic of the basic, really shouldn't give it great defense or offensive measures otherwise there'd be no need to specialize in other styles

#5 Makashi

Philosophy: Dueling style, passive-aggressive emphasis on parries and setups, uses speed and precision to catch single opponents off-guard.


13 DP damage (one-handed, not too powerful, but its speed and finesse will make up for it)
Significant DP cost to deflect bolts. 150% (perhaps even 175%) DP cost seems pretty good.
Attacks do MP damage if unparried.
Ripostes (and maybe parries) do slight DP damage at level 2 and level 3, maybe at the cost of 1 extra FP (passive aggressive)
Successful attack fakes prevent defender from getting their usual MP regen - reduction depends on level; cash in on enemy MP level after lock at level 3


Pros: With it being a MP-dealing monster, it'll be a devastating style against saberists. This may make dueling against multiple saberists easier as well, since it can cash in on mishap well.
Cons: Significant DP cost to deflection means that against rapid-fire weapons a Makashi user will have to be careful. The low DP damage also means that in terms of brute force damage it won't be able to keep up with harder hitting styles. The skill cost will ensure that you're going to be dedicating yourself to saber-saber combat if you intend on maxing the levels on this, but the perks will be well worth it.

#2 Soresu

Philosophy: Defense style, extreme passive emphasis on blaster deflection and saber blocks for survival, patiently waits until enemy presents an opening to exploit.


12 DP damage
Increased deflection rate and coverage per level(a step above that of Shii-Cho)
Decreased deflect/parry costs with level (better defense technique)
Slight DP regain when at critical DP, increase per level
Increased % DP damage on enemies experiencing mishap (exploiting openings)

Pros: With increasing level you can remain comfortably on the defensive. When you cash in one someone's mishap, you have the opportunity to land some devastating blows.
Cons: Abysmal attack damage normally, you'll be depending on using your parries to survive and counting on your damage bonuses when someone is in mishap.

#2 Ataru

Philosophy: Acrobatic style, aggressive emphasis on using rotational momentum to deliver powerful strikes; acrobatics are meant to be the defense but also leaves one vulnerable to blaster attacks.

Not done yet

#3 Djem-So

Philosophy: Bulldozing style, extreme aggressive emphasis on strong attacks and blaster reflection.

Not done yet

Niman: Moderation style, takes a little bit of everything, and I don't know if this is really a valid style to be on its own.

Not done yet

#4 Dual

Not done yet

#4 Staff

Not done yet

#5 Juyo: Unpredictable style, uses very open, kinetic attacks that lie somewhere between Ataru and Djem-So.

Not done yet

Gotta get to work early, will fill this stuff out later.

Yango
06-12-2007, 10:08 AM
Dont you think that apart damage perks, the styles should have some more differences? They all feel quite same.
As for example, Juyo is told to be unpredictable, so I'd add the unpredictability factor to it. I thought about changing feints (aka attack fakes) so they can be initiated at _any_ moment of the attack or a fake, and instead of a slower, more powerful swings they'd be faster and, well, unpredictable.
Same goes for Makashi. It is told to be precise and elegant, it looks and feels.. well.. imo it looks terribly and feels sloppy. And I, personally, really hate it's stance.
Etc etc.

bjusterbaarlik
06-12-2007, 10:14 AM
That is some very nice stuff there and it reflects the real (movie) styles very well.

Perhaps, for Soresu, a decrease in the boltblockdelay might be in order so you can deflect more bolts in a shorter time. The opposite should then be applied to Makashi, to make it stand out as a dueling style which is useless versus blasters etc.

I will be anticipating the full post with all the perks in them.

Maxstate
06-12-2007, 10:21 AM
really hate it's stance.

Working on it.

madcatmach2
06-12-2007, 04:06 PM
that reminds me. Since we have The Real Kain's permission to use all his stance mods and especially his awesome gunner stance mods when are we going to incorporate them into the mod?

Maxstate
06-12-2007, 04:19 PM
that reminds me. Since we have The Real Kain's permission to use all his stance mods and especially his awesome gunner stance mods when are we going to incorporate them into the mod?
I could do it if you want, but then I'd screw up Ace's frametime stuff.

All I need to do *I THINK* is replace our humanoid.gla with his, then add whatever frames he added into our anim.cfg, it should work like that... but I have no idea untill I try it. Just came home from mah jorb and don't think I'll be able to manage finishing anything by tonight but I'm done with my exams n' **** so I'm homefree for the near future.

razorace
06-12-2007, 05:03 PM
It sounds like we need to make design decision as to how Makashi works. It's either by:
1. wearing out their opponent. IE, by not tiring as quickly.
2. catching opponents off-guard using speed and elegance.

It's up to you guys, I'm happy with either philosophy.

Edit: The Real Kain's whazit?!

Yango
06-12-2007, 05:41 PM
//It sounds like we need to make design decision as to how Makashi works. It's either by:
//1. wearing out their opponent. IE, by not tiring as quickly.
//2. catching opponents off-guard using speed and elegance.

I'd take the second one, as I believe, Djemso is supposed to wear out the opponent with heavy hitting already. But I would not restrict Makashi users not to play passively.

Also I hope to get a reply on what you think about modifying basic moves' behaviour for some of the styles.

razorace
06-12-2007, 06:29 PM
I'm not really in favor of doing that much since it would make the gameplay inconsistant. I guess it would depend on a case-by-case basis.

With your specific previous suggestion (Juyo instant feints) the problem is that the animations aren't really designed for these kinds of transitions. Plus, we'd have to do some hacking because the saber combat system is really designed to only switch animations when the previous one is completed. And I think the biggie would be that the players would be "skipping" animation sets (Like swinging without a windup).

JRHockney*
06-12-2007, 08:59 PM
Well I like Tanqexes ideas too. It keeps alot of the familiar features intact.

But doesn't anybody like my ideas?! :'(

Maxstate
06-13-2007, 04:10 AM
Well I like Tanqexes ideas too. It keeps alot of the familiar features intact.

But doesn't anybody like my ideas?! :'(
I like your staff and dual ideas :)

You just need to talk to me on MSN more :(

Listen, if Razor Ace can somehow split staff and dual styles into a one-handed counterpart I can take some of Tavion's anims and dual anims to create a makeshift ataru and with some of Desann's poopoo combined with the staff stuff I could make a hell of a shien or niman if you guys want :d

First though I think we need to give staff and duals really good benefits since they're so underused already :(

bjusterbaarlik
06-13-2007, 08:14 AM
Yes, it would be nice to have Ataru and Niman in there as well. Then at least we have all the styles.

madcatmach2
06-13-2007, 12:32 PM
Edit: The Real Kain's whazit?!his stance mod's Razor that were alowed to use. since pcgamemods is down yet again it will be a little hard to get them but, i have his e-11 stance mod (gunner), his stance mod v1.4,1.5<--fav and i could host them for you guys

razorace
06-13-2007, 02:45 PM
Yes, please host or link so I can see what you're talking about.

As for single saber dual and staff styles playing differently, it might be possible. I'd have to see if the modified "new" styles were worth the effort of hacking everything thou. :)

TheShaman
06-14-2007, 03:14 PM
I can't wait to see Ataru... Niman was never ever seen, though, but Jari'kai is a subform of it, so the dual stance could be a form VI. This means the 7 forms are complete (with the new coming Ataru), but there is still a problem : staff stance, what the hell is that? Maul used Juyo with his staff... but it's not an obligation for staff... any idea?

madcatmach2
06-14-2007, 11:09 PM
Yes, please host or link so I can see what you're talking about.well it turns out the gun stances are also included in version 1.5 so that saves me a file to upload :p
http://files.filefront.com/Kain+Stances+14+JA+versinzip/;7786188;;/fileinfo.html
http://files.filefront.com/s+Stances+15zip/;7786227;;/fileinfo.html

Maxstate
06-15-2007, 06:16 AM
See the funny thing is, you can use a staff and adopt Soresu or use Duals and play with Ataru... there isn't a set form for each.

TheShaman
06-15-2007, 01:15 PM
Yea, but it would be hard to make a form usable with both blades, like a 2 sabers Djem-so... This is too bad, could have been interesting.

The Unbeholden
07-30-2007, 04:31 AM
READ MY LATEST POST FOR THIS LIST OF LIGHT SABER FORMS>

HamstrYODA
07-30-2007, 07:53 AM
Some feedback for latest post.

Shii-cho
when mastered, can be able to cope with other styles. at least as long as facing true master of other, (advanced) style. I think it is pretty well made atm.

Makashi
Duelling style, but i dont think it is really for more than 1 opponent.

Soresu
Ultra-defensive, nothing add or change

Ataru
Shouldn't be implemented to OJP, too hard to make. currently can be somehow mimiced with aggressive, acrobatic soresu.

Djem-so
Nothing to add, well said.

Niman
Not really used in combat, no reason to implement in OJP.

Juyo
sounds good as it is.

Jar'Kai
should probably be more expensive but without Niman (which is not needed in OJP)

Staff
Agreed.


Some words about current saber system. I would like to see more levels for every saber form.
Basic practise, 1 point with reduced damage and perks effectiveness and slightly slower speed (possible to make? hard?).
Advanced practise, 2-4 points. current damage and perks
Mastered practise, 8 points. Higher damage when facing opponent who doesn't have mastery of style he is using and level 3 defense. Perks always little bit more effective than currently.

The Unbeholden
07-30-2007, 08:22 AM
Some feedback for latest post.

Shii-cho
when mastered, can be able to cope with other styles. at least as long as facing true master of other, (advanced) style. I think it is pretty well made atm.

Makashi
Duelling style, but i dont think it is really for more than 1 opponent.

Soresu
Ultra-defensive, nothing add or change

Ataru
Shouldn't be implemented to OJP, too hard to make. currently can be somehow mimiced with aggressive, acrobatic soresu.

Djem-so
Nothing to add, well said.

Niman
Not really used in combat, no reason to implement in OJP.

Juyo
sounds good as it is.

Jar'Kai
should probably be more expensive but without Niman (which is not needed in OJP)

Staff
Agreed.


Some words about current saber system. I would like to see more levels for every saber form.
Basic practise, 1 point with reduced damage and perks effectiveness and slightly slower speed (possible to make? hard?).
Advanced practise, 2-4 points. current damage and perks
Mastered practise, 8 points. Higher damage when facing opponent who doesn't have mastery of style he is using and level 3 defense. Perks always little bit more effective than currently.

OOPSS you right about Makashi.... ive changed it... but i believe there should only be one level in Shii-Cho... the higher level version of Shii-Cho is Niman. Ive never heard of anyone perfecting the Shii-Cho style,,, as theres nothing to perfect so i must dis agree with you there. It would be 100 times better if we put all the light saber styles instead of removing a few... its unrealistic!! last time i checked this mod is about realism.

archmoo
07-30-2007, 11:01 AM
There seems to be lots of good ideas here, but it seems to me that the big MP damage should go to the heavy hitting styles (e.g. Djem-So). Whereas the big DP damage should go to Makashi. This is simply thinking about what MP and DP represent.

MP is also called the "balance" meter, when you get too many MP points you go off balance and start to be knocked down etc. DP in contrast are the dodge points, how much more you can dodge and block before you are unable to cope.

Makashi is said to be fast, elegant and precise. This seems to be the epitomy of DP damage: fast, precise strikes which are difficult to dodge. High DP for low FP cost, makes Makashi very efficient.

Djem-So in contrast is about power, it's about battering your opponent off balance and then exploiting their lack of balance. This seems to me to be the epitomy of MP damage: putting your opponent off balance until they can't take it any more (mishap).

Consider how Anakin (Djem-So) beat Count Dooku (Makashi), he just battered him into submission until the count stumbled off balance (mishap) at which point Anakin exploited his weakness.

Maxstate
07-30-2007, 11:21 AM
I think we're getting our styles mixed up here, but then again, it's all about interpretation. My post still stands as well.

The Unbeholden
07-30-2007, 12:15 PM
There seems to be lots of good ideas here, but it seems to me that the big MP damage should go to the heavy hitting styles (e.g. Djem-So). Whereas the big DP damage should go to Makashi. This is simply thinking about what MP and DP represent.

MP is also called the "balance" meter, when you get too many MP points you go off balance and start to be knocked down etc. DP in contrast are the dodge points, how much more you can dodge and block before you are unable to cope.

Makashi is said to be fast, elegant and precise. This seems to be the epitomy of DP damage: fast, precise strikes which are difficult to dodge. High DP for low FP cost, makes Makashi very efficient.

Djem-So in contrast is about power, it's about battering your opponent off balance and then exploiting their lack of balance. This seems to me to be the epitomy of MP damage: putting your opponent off balance until they can't take it any more (mishap).

Consider how Anakin (Djem-So) beat Count Dooku (Makashi), he just battered him into submission until the count stumbled off balance (mishap) at which point Anakin exploited his weakness.

Exactly... i don't think Makashi should damage an opponent MP... i think Makashi should have less DP cost for you to block someones attack.. because Makashi is supposed to tire an opponent out by easily blocking attacks as well as fast precise attacks that are very hard to block.. so Makashi should damage DP instead

Yango
07-30-2007, 12:25 PM
Ye it sounds nice, but note that when you parry your mishap goes down very fast. So once you block one or two djemso-your-way blows you're all good, because your dp is ok. Makashi should work that way, even if it's not fully satisfying for 'realisticness' and rp guys; and I'm one of them, too.
If djemso had a perk that one would not get his mp regenerated after parrying djemso blows umm but nah too risky to screw all the balance up, imo.

archmoo
07-30-2007, 01:04 PM
Ye it sounds nice, but note that when you parry your mishap goes down very fast. So once you block one or two djemso-your-way blows you're all good, because your dp is ok. Makashi should work that way, even if it's not fully satisfying for 'realisticness' and rp guys; and I'm one of them, too.
If djemso had a perk that one would not get his mp regenerated after parrying djemso blows umm but nah too risky to screw all the balance up, imo.

Well of course, but this is simply a matter of balance as I see it. Ultimately it's always DP that kills, mishaps by themselves don't mean anything. However, a mishap presents a big opportunity to get in a hit for really big DP.

MP is definitely harder to convert to a kill than DP, not only do you have to cause a mishap (not always easy given how MP regenerates), but you then have to successfully convert that mishap to a DP gain. In contrast a DP bonus is much easier.

However, the solution to this could be to make the difference in DP between Makashi and Djem-So much smaller than the difference in MP. For example a 25% DP bonus to Makashi would probably be a big gain, whereas Djem-So might need a 2x (100%) bonus to MP to get the same kind of bonus. Another way would be to increase the DP bonus for hits on a mishap. Ultimately MP could be just as deadly, it's just a question of balancing the numbers.

TheDestroyer99
07-30-2007, 01:46 PM
I agree with skill perks of all saber combat. I didn't bother looking at all the posts due to limited time, so heres my opinion.

Shii-Cho
Pro
-Good vs. Multiple enemies
-Well Rounded
Con
-Basic, unable to use more advanced moves.

Makashi
Pro
-Anti-Saber form. Blocks blows and counter attack with ease.
-Great attacks to break through the saberist's defenses
Con
-When faced with blasters you get your butt whooped w/ this style activated
-Not very good vs. sith powers

Djem-So
Pro
-Heavy attacks that hit hard and usually kill if they land on the opponent.
-Breaks through defenses like nobody's business
-Swings are fast and strong, so hard to parry.
Con
-Hard to learn and use
-Blocking is pretty much out of the question
-Takes long days of training to move through combat pwning all

Sorosu (how do you spell it??)
Pro
-Deflection is this style's bread and butter
-Great for deflecting sith lightning
Con
-Not very good for the offensive

Vaapaad (Form VII, not implemented. It rules the saber community)
Pro
-Exellent for everything, the uber form.
-The pros from most styles
Con
-Must master EVERY other style to learn, which requires hours on the server in which time you probably will get your butt kicked.
-Big explosion effects spell trouble for you
-Using those cool force powers is out of the question due to skill points used on all the other forms
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, thats just a bit, see what you get from there. Yes, i think vaapaad (mace windu's style) should be implemented becuase its the thing all saberists will want, meaning they will walk the razors edge between sith and jedi. I suggest a g_dissableformVII command or something cuz its so powerfull. on a jedi vs. jedi server its great.


-TheDestroyer

Yango
07-30-2007, 01:58 PM
Nah TheDestroyer, any style should not be so far superior to others. Player with good skill should win, and not with good style - and I dont mean no ingame skill points. And Juyo is there, already. I dont really agree with plenty of stuff you pointed out. Well. I bet you should bother and check out other posts, I see no need to repeat the stuff already posted.

"However, the solution to this could be to make the difference in DP between Makashi and Djem-So much smaller than the difference in MP."
Actually it would be nice to have djemso inflict dangerous mp damage each hit or two. I'm still worried about balance, but I'll leave it to devs now. ^^ The idea is well worth checking out.

Maxstate
07-30-2007, 02:08 PM
Nah TheDestroyer, any style should not be so far superior to others. Player with good skill should win, and not with good style - and I dont mean no ingame skill points. And Juyo is there, already. I dont really agree with plenty of stuff you pointed out. Well. I bet you should bother and check out other posts, I see no need to repeat the stuff already posted.

"However, the solution to this could be to make the difference in DP between Makashi and Djem-So much smaller than the difference in MP."
Actually it would be nice to have djemso inflict dangerous mp damage each hit or two. I'm still worried about balance, but I'll leave it to devs now. ^^ The idea is well worth checking out.

No style force power limiting or changing resistances, I think it'll be better if we keep to damage/defense and some kind of random and/or thought out pros that are only useful in either situations or if the user knows how to use the form properly.

Yango
07-30-2007, 02:44 PM
What I'm most interested in are special perks (for harder styles especially) that are not +xx% obvious, to use which you'd have to perform certain actions and use situations in battle, like some kind of combos. They would require a dose of timing skill and some knowledge of the style; and therefore would be very rewarding. Although the fight is already so complicated it would be probably hard to implement any. And, uh-huh, no randomness in combat, please ;<<

And, um, what is the current situation with Juyo apart good dp damage? Any special stuff?

ensiform
07-30-2007, 05:14 PM
(for harder styles especially)
Define harder styles. Because IMO that is an opinion right there.

Yango
07-30-2007, 05:26 PM
"Define harder styles. Because IMO that is an opinion right there."
Thanks for pointing that out. Harder to learn I meant, so the more exotic ones. Juyo, makashi, duals and staff; others apart the basics to a certain degree.

Maxstate
07-30-2007, 05:28 PM
Quinlan vos only knew Ataru and he was a Juyo trainee for a while. I don't consider realism a factor anymore when facing problems that have never heard of reliasm.
Saber styles != realism, lets just wing it.

TheShaman
07-31-2007, 12:52 PM
Yea, since they are not all seen, we just try to give them an overall interpretation that makes them different. (Note that the player can use them as he wishes, since they are forms, which help in creating his own unique style.)

Tanqexe
07-31-2007, 02:09 PM
I just have to say to Unbeholden that, even though my list of suggestions was incomplete, copying my words pretty much verbatim is extremely bad form. Plagiarism is a no-no.

Anyway, we are limited by canon as to how the various styles actually look in combat, as we only have the movies to show what kinds of moves/philosophies are put into practice by various practitioners. If we go with trying to emulate the different forms based on what's seen in the movies, we'll be very limited and nobody will really be satisfied in the end.

The big picture here is to deliver a very fun experience, with saber perks being an integral part of combat, not optional. Creative liberties must be taken, such as in the case of the MP vs DP damage deal with Makashi. No one form when mastered should be vastly superior to another, just as in real life different martial arts emphasize different approaches to combat, but at the root no one art is superior.

The Unbeholden
08-03-2007, 09:57 AM
HEY GUYS I'VE CHANGED ALOT SO READ THIS AGAIN AS I EDIT POSTS!!!



The perks need to supplement and boost the combat philosophies associated with each form so that someone who fights with a particular philosophy can prefer to choose to use that form because it suits his or her style of play. With increased cost the forms should also have a greater gap between strengths and weaknesses, i.e. most expensive styles should have great strengths at the cost of some significant weaknesses, leaving it up to the player to use skill to cover for those weaknesses in a fight. We should get rid of Saber Defense altogether and make those bonuses implicit with a saber form.

The Roman numerals next to the form names refer to the order of which have been created in the star wars universe (just a good way to remember). Once Shii-Cho is learned any one of these styles after which can be chosen. It takes along time and dedication to master a style, so it will take consireble time to get the full advantages of a style; as in there are 3 levels to each light saber form.

For the animations of the 2 new saber styles; for Ataru put in the animations of single staff and Niman to have the animations of single dual (single as in staff light saber and dual light saber styles but with only a normal light saber instead), because Niman is almost identical to dual light saber combat and staff single has all the acrobatics for Ataru. In this way we can have all 9 forms.

I# Shii-Cho

Philosophy: Foundation form, no-nonsense emphasis on basics, short on exotic techniques. Younglings are taught Shii-Cho first because of its simplicity and versatility. Sometimes called the ideal form.

Pros: You get to buy all the basic necessities of saber combat at cheap point cost. the Shii-Cho form is good versus many enemies wielding conventional blaster weaponry. Its simplicity is its strength, making it a very good style to use if all else fails.

Cons: Nothing remarkably exotic to counter more expensive styles. This style of lightsaber combat is not useful against multiple strikes because it only works as a basic guide for lightsaber combat.

II# Makashi

Philosophy: After Shii-Cho's proliferation as a saber combat technique, Makashi came about as a means of lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat. Being very elegant, powerful, and requiring extreme precision, allowing the user to attack and defend with minimal effort, while his opponent tires himself out.

Pros: passive-aggressive emphasis on parries and setups, uses speed and precision with easy blocks tiring opponents out. making it the best light saber to light saber style.

Cons: The biggest flaw in Makashi is that it will not hold off heavy attacks, such as from Djem-So or from multiple enemies/attacks. also the weaknesses comes as with short precise movements makes it quite hard for deflecting many blaster shots, this style having one of the lowest deflection rate.

III# Soresu

Philosophy: Defense style, extreme passive emphasis on blaster deflection and saber blocks for survival, patiently waits until enemy presents an opening to exploit.

Pros: very close bodied blocks gives it the fastest deflection rate for blasters, and the speed and ridiculous blocks that can be made gives it the most effective extreme close range saber fighting. As most saber styles are aggressive you can wait for your opponent to make a mistake to land a deadly blow.

Cons: Abysmal attack strength, meaning you'll rely on your opponents dropping there guard at some point to inflict any damage.

IV# Ataru / Ataro

Philosophy: An acrobatic style, perfecting these manuevers leaves the user a hard target, this also puts aggressive emphasis on using rotational momentum to deliver powerful strikes and using the force to flow deep through your body enhancing your speed into all of your attacks makes this the ultimate style interms of overall combat finese. Ataru users have been said to be a blur in combat.

Pros: Due to its aggressive nature, it is an effective form to use against single enemies; also it makes running in combat more effective as this style doesn't need to conserve any energy, usually defeating opponents quite quickly.

Cons: however, it leaves the user open to attacks from multiple opponents; therefore, it is wise to use Ataru in a duel, but not in open warfare. the greatest strength of Ataru is also its greatest flaw. The acrobatics will make the practitioner vulnerable to having their legs chopped off. Also it is less effective in close quarter combat as it leaves little room for acrobatics. Another flaw is that is uses alot of force power as it's used to enhance the style, and because of all the acrobatics if Ataru users don't defeat opponents fast enough they will be left weak and easy to defeat.

V# Djem-So / Shien

Philosophy: Bulldozing style, force enhanced attacks and blaster reflection used defensively as well as aggressively.

Pros: This style is quite unpredictable, knocking down their light saber weilding opponents more than other forms. While Serosu combatants effortlessly deflect laser bolts, Djem-so practitioners excel at redirecting the blaster bolt toward the opponent. This simultaneously defends the user and efficiently injures the opponent.

Cons: permits the user to actually fully block and repel attacks since it calls for the use of more powerful, Force-enhanced strength. this means this style is incapable of parrying making it a defense flaw.

VI# Niman

Philosophy: The basic philosophy of Niman is "the leaf swept in the winds of the force". One who uses this form attains a mindset of one who is not perturbed by their surroundings, but rides the currents of the surrounding chaos, being harmonious and balanced within. It is a style of Moderation, making it effective against all light saber styles as its influenced by all.

Pros: As it takes a combination of all styles, it has no penalties when versing against another light saber form. The most unique thing about Niman is it's harmonized balance gives the user complete control of the force, making you resistant to force attacks even when your in the heat of battle. This form is a must if one wants to learn to use dual light sabers.

Cons: has a surprisingly low chance of deflecting blaster bolts, lower than any form.

VII# Juyo / Vapaad

Philosophy: Unpredictable style, uses very open, kinetic attacks that use emotion to make it more powerful. Anger ruling you in combat makes this style border on the edge of the dark side.

Pros: Every blow from a master of Juyo is threatened to be a life-ending critical strike. Excels at dexterity and strength of attack.

Cons: in return it sacrifices defense against both weapons and the force. To much focus on aggressive attacks leaves this styles defenses down and because in their anger Juyo users have a hard time focusing on the force making them vulerable to force powers. (even though this is so, the upside is being in touch with their anger makes dark side powers easier to channel)

Dual# Dual light sabers / Jar'Kai

Philosophy: This style uses one light saber for defense while another for attack, allowing you to do two things at once. But unfortunately this takes a long time to master and it needs multi tasking skills making it only suitable for a few people, very rarely is this style used because of this. Most of the time ends up users cutting their own limbs off by mistake. To use this style you must first master Niman, as Niman is the stepping stone for the use of this style (Anyone who has ever used Dual light sabers has first mastered Niman so you need Niman as a prerequisite).

Pros: Allows to parry and attack at the same time, attacks are twice as fast, can throw both light sabers with light saber throw and if disarmed this style turns into Niman until light saber is retrieved.

Cons: is quite expensive in skill points and requires a mastered Niman in order to use this.

Staff# Staff light saber

Philosophy: The Staff light saber is the best for kicks as this and the styles attacks are utilized together. Takes some time to master as the risk of cutting your own limbs off happens often to inexperienced users. The staff light saber utilizes a few key principles of its own combat but does not have a certain style, allowing you to give your own interpretation on its use depending on what ever light saber form you've previously learnt requiring you to have mastered at least two light sabers forms (ataru being similar because uses same animations, modify Ataru's moves a bit so they look different to this).

Pros: Allows for acrobatics, light saber attacks and kicks to be used at once, attacks are twice as fast and is the most effective style against multiple opponents as it can defend your back and front at the same time.

Cons: To use this style you need alot of skill points and atleast two mastered light saber forms of any kind.



OK THIS TIME I'M DONE, I HOPE SOMEONE TAKES ALL THIS INTO ACCOUNT, OTHERWISE I'VE WASTED MANY NIGHTS WORK :(

Note: I give credit to everyone who has contributed as ive summarised ideas from others. 25% of it is from Tanqexe which i thought was really good. I give permission for everyone to claim this as its part of everyones ideas, but 75% of this is mine which i worked hard on and researched for days.

Tanqexe
08-03-2007, 01:16 PM
*sigh* Proposing your own ideas is one thing, and taking some ideas and incorporating into your own is another, but can you please not plagiarize word for word what I wrote? I already warned you once, shouldn't have to warn you twice, man.

(I'm completing the list that you plagiarized as we speak.)

Maxstate
08-03-2007, 01:54 PM
Unbeholden, why did you use the material Tanqexe wrote? And why are you passing it off as your own? You could've at least given him credit for writing it and QUOTE him?

The Unbeholden
08-03-2007, 01:56 PM
Im not stealing ideas im just summing up that every body wrote... plus adding a few ideas of my own... anyone can credit for what i wrote... i give you all permission..

Maxstate
08-03-2007, 01:59 PM
But untill Tanqexe gives you permission, would it be fair to 'use' his? I can't see that you're quoting him nor crediting him for his work.

The Unbeholden
08-03-2007, 02:00 PM
not only that but 75% of that is mine anyway... i don't know what all the fuss is about?

Only about 25% of that is his and a couple other things are taken from various places... so i don't need permission. almost all of that is research stuff that I've wasted about 3 days non stop compiling....


show me some respect.. my eyes are red from long nights/ why do you guys hate me . :(

Maxstate
08-03-2007, 02:05 PM
Even if 1% is his you need to ask permission. I'm not familiar with the legal acts, rules and laws that are bound to this, but on a personal level I will tell you that from now on, taking your posts seriously is out of the question.

What you're doing is wrong, man.

The Unbeholden
08-03-2007, 02:10 PM
sue me then..

I don't care about the Law... all i care about is this wonderful mod... look at the ideas i came up with besides those of Tanqexe,,, this took me ages to compile... stop bad mouthing me. As ive said these ideas are from all over the place. I give you all permission to claim it as your own. As this is everyones work,,,

but most of it is mine and just research.. anyway glad you like it :D

Tanqexe
08-03-2007, 02:16 PM
Ok, dude, there's no need for melodrama here. We're not attacking you personally in any way. It doesn't matter how long you took to compile, so long as you do not acknowledge WHERE you got your information from and CONSENT for information, what you're doing is not right, ethically, legally. This is a lesson for you to learn, for your own sake. You'd get in big, big trouble if you did this in school or in some other venture.

Maxstate
08-03-2007, 02:22 PM
Anyway guys, I don't know whether we should really be enveloping ourselves into the whole perks stuff yet. After playing 0.1.0 I'm surprised to see that gunner vs saberist combat is still pretty much random and not fun. Gunner vs gunner is nice, could use some improvement, saberist versus saberist is extraordinary as we know but saberist vs gunner just seems so spammy for some reason..

Me and Darthdie (well mostly darthdie ;p) have been working on trying to improve the gunner vs jedi combat and some other things that have been annoying me and my testers. Aside from tweaking the secondary fires of the e-11 and bowcaster darthdie has also increased max jumpheight for every level among other stuff. We're about to try the code via hamachi, anyone is welcome.

The Unbeholden
08-03-2007, 02:26 PM
sorry for the mellodrama but you really hurt my feelings as I worked hard on that even though "some" of it was Tanqexe... i will now add his name to the ending of my post for his idea. Just because i love yous all :)

anyways glad you guys forgive me.. yer i reckon the gunner vs jedi is not fun at all. Good one Maxstate. me love you to :D

Tanqexe
08-03-2007, 02:27 PM
Yeah, gunner vs saber combat comes first, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't debate about the technical stuff about perks. Not like we can't discuss different things at the same time :)

TheShaman
09-04-2007, 02:24 PM
OK I'm no longer on holidays, time to start studies, so I probably will be far less active than I have been (especially around june and july). As a last post before I go, I put here the latest review of my "dream" about saber style perks, in hope it will help OJP and you'll like it.


Note that any "implicit declaration" I do in my text counts as a definition ("blabla does x% damage instead of y%" means that I think it should be y as default, and x for the perk of the current form.)

The number before form name is the cost of the first level. The level 2 and 3 should cost respectively 2 and 3 points for all forms. (So Shii-cho costs 1,2,3, Makashi costs 3,2,3, Juyo costs 4,2,3...)

(1)-=Shii-cho=- 15 DP damage
•Advantages:
L1: Blocking rear shots or swings only does 150% DP damage, instead of 200% for other forms
L2: Blocking shots costs 1 DP less
L3: Any MP gain is reduced of 1

(3)-=Makashi=- 14 DP damage
•Advantages:
L1: - Start time of swings is 25% shorter
- Attacks deal 2 (maybe 3) MP and attack fakes 3 (maybe 4) MP to the opponent if he doesn't parry
L2: Attack parrying an opponent doesn't make him lose MP (or if it can't be done, just make it give the same ammount of MP as a normal parry)
L3: Attack parrying an opponent deals 7 DP damage to him (cannot kill though, just DP drain)
•Disadvantage:
L1: Blocking shots costs 1 DP more

(2)-=Soresu=- 13 DP damage
•Advantages:
L1: Blocking shots costs 2 DP less
L2: Parrying costs 25% of the initial DP cost, instead of 50% for other forms
L3: Attacking an opponent in a slow bounce, heavy bounce, or stumble deals 150% DP damage (other multiplicators such as running x1.5, stumble x2... are still applied)

(2)-=Ataru=- 16 DP damage (Not just 1 saber dual stance, we would need a real new one, looking like Qui Gon's)
•Advantages:
L1: Swing speed (not start-swing animation, and not transition) is 25% faster
L2: All jumps have their base cost halved (see jumps FP cost for more details at bottom of post)
L3: Force empowered attacks enabled (Released attack fakes do 25% more DP damage than the usual attack fake, and do 1 FP damage, but can't cause lock.)

(2)-=Djem-so=- 17 DP damage
•Advantages:
L1: - Transition time reduced of 25%
- Manually deflected shots have 75% chance of getting reflected right in the crosshair instead of 50% for other forms
L2: When you attack parry an opponent, he suffers a little knockback and loses 2 FP
L3: Hitting an enemy with an attack or attack fake makes him lose 1 or 2 FP respectively, if he doesn't parry.
•Disadvantage:
L1: Whenever you gain any MP ammount, you gain 1 more MP

(4)-=Juyo=- 17 DP damage (maybe 16 to replace Ataru's if it doesn't get implemented)
•Advantages:
L1: DP cost to dodge is reduced of 5
L2: Attack fakes deal 25% more DP damage if not parried than other forms' attack fakes (which means: 17*1.25*1.25)
L3: Running swings deal 200% DP damage instead of 150% for other forms

(4)-=Staff=- 13 DP damage
•Advantages:
L1: Can hit 2 times with 1 attack
L2: No DP penalty for blocking rear shots and swings
L3: Allows chain swings: everytime you attack the opponent and he doesn't parry, you get 1 extra attack point (AP) which is added to the next DP damage, it is cumulative.
(Example: if you hit the enemy 4 times in a row without being parried, you will do 13, then 14, then 15, then 16 = 58 DP damage, but if he parries you in the 3rd attack, it will do 13, then 14, then 15 (parry reduction applies of course) [STOP], and when you attack again, it starts at 13 again, AP is set to 0 again)

(4)-=Jar'kai=- 14 DP damage
•Advantages:
L1: - Can hit 2 times with 1 attack
- Never fully disarmed
L2: No extra FP cost for attack fakes
L3: Can parry while swinging
•Disadvantage:
L1: Attacking costs 2 FP


Jumps FP cost without Ataru:
-Normal jump: FP_cost = 4 + (3 - jump_level) + heaviness_of_equipment
-Special jumps (wheels, baclfkip): FP_cost = 2 + (3 - jump_level) +

heaviness_of_equipment
-DFAs: FP_cost = 2 + 1 + (3 - jump_level) + heaviness_of_equipment
(DFAs cost 1 FP more because there's an attack in addition to the jump.)

With Ataru:
-Normal jump: FP_cost = 2 + (3 - jump_level) + heaviness_of_equipment
-Special jumps (wheels, baclfkip): FP_cost = 1 + (3 - jump_level) +

heaviness_of_equipment
-DFAs: FP_cost = 1 + 1 + (3 - jump_level) + heaviness_of_equipment
(Note: The 1 FP more of the DFA is because there's an attack in addition to the jump.)

heaviness_of_equipment is the sum of the weight class of weapons and items, not only selected, but carried (if possible):
Saber: 0
Pistol: 0
E11: 1
Bowcaster: 1
Thermal: 1
Detpacks: 1
Rocket launcher: 2
Clone rifle: 2
Disruptor: 2
Bacta: 0
Jetpack: 2
Force field: 1
Cloaking device: 0
Flamethrower: 0
Seeker droid : 0
Sentry gun: 1

Which makes a maximum of 14.

JRHockney*
09-07-2007, 02:06 AM
I don't know Shaman, that sounds pretty complicated. I already have a long explanation to knew players about the saber system and the perks as it is and I'm not sure I want it more complicated than it is right now. Some of that stuff would take alot of tedious coding and some of it I wouldnt even know how to code.

Right now its just me and darth doing coding with occasional help from others and we're trying to focus one balancing other aspects of the gameplay, fix bugs, and maybe even add some new skills if we can figure out how :p Our saber system is at a good enough place right now I think. Maybe in the future we'll do more tweaking and consider this further, but not until theres much more players asking for tweaks to it and everything else is at a passable level..... unless somebody else wants to code it?! We might give it a try in that case.

The Unbeholden
09-10-2007, 05:28 AM
You forgot Niman .... on a second note this forum has been a ghost town.. where is everybody/ ?

Jawa Bond
09-11-2007, 05:18 PM
Busy I'm sure, I've got a ton of work piling up. Also keep in mind that they need time to work out the coding or even be able to code some stuff. It takes a while from what I've heard.

razorace
09-12-2007, 06:16 PM
on a second note this forum has been a ghost town.. where is everybody/ ?
I'm just lurking and been busy with other things.