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Master Demonius
05-01-2007, 11:21 PM
do you guys think bush should be impeached or not?
i think he should so that the war spending bill can get passed

Rogue Nine
05-01-2007, 11:30 PM
Impeachment isn't like a switch being flipped. It's a long involved process that requires the participation of both houses of Congress. The party lines are split so that even if a resolution to impeach came to the table, it certainly wouldn't pass with the needed majority.

Impeaching the president to get the war spending bill passed is like trying to solve quantum mechanics equations with soggy pasta and a ball of lint. He's already vetoed the bill and there's no way to reverse that.

tk102
05-01-2007, 11:39 PM
He's already vetoed the bill and there's no way to reverse that.

*Cough* Article 1 Section 7
Every Bill which shall have passed the House of Representatives and the Senate, shall, before it become a Law, be presented to the President of the United States; If he approve he shall sign it, but if not he shall return it, with his Objections to that House in which it shall have originated, who shall enter the Objections at large on their Journal, and proceed to reconsider it. If after such Reconsideration two thirds of that House shall agree to pass the Bill, it shall be sent, together with the Objections, to the other House, by which it shall likewise be reconsidered, and if approved by two thirds of that House, it shall become a Law.:xp:

Sorry RN, I couldn't resist quoting the Constituion to a law student. :D

Jae Onasi
05-01-2007, 11:41 PM
Yeah, but they don't have the 2/3 majority to override the veto. They barely had a majority to get it passed in the first place.

It also had a lot of completely unrelated crap/pork added to it, just to make that more interesting.

tk102
05-01-2007, 11:47 PM
Details details...

Hey some of that crap/pork would've re-opened our libraries which have been closed for the last two weeks. (more info (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2007/03/04/MNGC7N6Q3M1.DTL)).

Edit:
vvv--- I knew what you meant RN, but you walked right into that one. :D

Rogue Nine
05-01-2007, 11:48 PM
I was stating that there was no way to take back his veto, tk. He's done it, that's it. Impeachment will not nullify his veto. I know full well that a president's veto may be overriden by Congress. :xp:

Jae Onasi
05-01-2007, 11:59 PM
Details details...

Hey some of that crap/pork would've re-opened our libraries which have been closed for the last two weeks.

They actually broke their own rules doing that. Rep. Ryan and others had passed a provision last year disallowing non-essential spending provisions getting attached to emergency spending bills:

This bill violates the emergency spending reforms Rep. Ryan helped put in place last year. These reforms were meant to prevent non-emergency spending from being inserted into emergency supplementals. This measure waives those safeguards.

tk102
05-02-2007, 12:03 AM
Guess it's all a matter of perspective what constitutes an emergency.

SilentScope001
05-02-2007, 12:07 AM
No.

Did Bush ever committed any crime? Impeachment is for crimes committed by the President, and crimes do not include doing something that the majority of Americans hate.

But Bush can be impeached. All it takes is a majority vote in the House of Represnatives to "impeach" Bush. Then, Bush is impeached. But to formally kick Bush out of office, you have to have a Impeachment Trial and then 2/3 of the Senate has to Convict Bush of a crime.

Before you can impeach Bush though, you need to find a charge to impeach him with. No War in Iraq, however.

Emperor Devon
05-02-2007, 12:09 AM
I can think of a lot of things I'd rather impeach Bush for than just vetoing this bill. Kicking him out of office over just this seems rather silly to me.

By the time they finished impeaching him the bill would've been resolved anyway. Doesn't seem to be much of a point to it.

Char Ell
05-02-2007, 12:09 AM
do you guys think bush should be impeached or not?
i think he should so that the war spending bill can get passed :eyeraise: Eh? So you're saying Bush should be impeached because he vetoed the spending bill? It's a very good thing the United States federal government doesn't work that way or we would be swapping new presidents in every month. :nod:

Vetoing a bill is hardly grounds for impeachment. I believe Article 2 Section 4 of the U.S. Constitution establishes the grounds for impeachment.
The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors.

Windu Chi
05-02-2007, 01:05 AM
do you guys think bush should be impeached or not?
i think he should so that the war spending bill can get passed
Hell yeah he should be impeached!
They need to veto his ass out of office, NOW.

Dagobahn Eagle
05-02-2007, 01:24 AM
Did Bush ever committed any crime?Do lions ever hurt antelopes?

Has he broken any laws? Well... only 26 very serious and important ones (http://www.house.gov/judiciary_democrats/iraqrept2.html) (summary (http://www.buzzflash.com/articles/alerts/95)):

Deception of Congress and the American Public Committing a Fraud Against the United States (18 U.S.C. § 371) Making False Statements Against the United States (18 U.S.C. § 1001) War Powers Resolution (Public Law 93-148) Misuse of Government Funds (31 U.S.C. § 1301)

Improper Detention, Torture, and Other Inhumane Treatment Anti-Torture Statute (18 U.S.C. § 2340-40A) The War Crimes Act (18 U.S.C. § 2441) The Geneva Conventions and Hague Convention: International Laws Governing the Treatment of Detainees United Nations Convention Against Torture, and Cruel, Inhuman and Degrading Treatment: International Laws Governing the Treatment of Detainees Command Responsibility (for known illegal acts of subordinates in the military) Detainment of Material Witnesses (18 U.S.C. § 3144)

Retaliating against Witnesses and Other Individuals Obstruction Congress (18 U.S.C. § 1505)
Whistleblower Protection (5 U.S.C. § 2302)
The Lloyd-LaFollette Act, or "anti-gag rule" (5 U.S.C. § 7211)
Retaliating against Witnesses (18 U.S.C. § 1513)

Leaking and other Misuse of Intelligence and other Government Information
Revealing Classified Information in Contravention of Federal Regulations (Executive Order 12958/Classified Information Nondisclosure Agreement)
Statutory Prohibitions on Leaking Information (18 U.S.C. § 641, etc.)

Laws Governing Electronic Surveillance
Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (50 U.S.C. § 1801, et seq.)
National Security Act of 1947 (50 U.S.C. chapter 15)
Communications Act of 1934 (47 U.S.C. § 222)
Stored Communications Act of 1986 (18 U.S.C. § 2702)
Pen Registers or Trap and Trace Devices (18 U.S.C. § 3121)

Laws and Guidelines Prohibiting Conflicts of Interest (28 U.S.C. § 528, etc.)

And that's but the tip of the 750-law ice berg (http://greatmartin.blogster.com/bush_broken_750_laws.html).

Dubya is a corrupt war monger who's cost the US far more than he's given it.
He's turned the stable dictatorship of Iraq into a civil war-ridden anarchy.
Through bullying, threats and a general cowboy attitude, he's worsened the precious US-Europe relations we so much need. Anti-Americanism soared as the Coalition went into Iraq.
He's put the brakes on stem cell research, an important field of medicine that will better peoples' lives.
He's given the people of the US a tax cut during deficit and war.

I know he'll not be impeached. I know he'll never be made to stand for his crimes. I still oppose him.

Q
05-02-2007, 01:26 AM
An actual crime needs to be commited first, like, well, I don't know -perjury!:)

Windu Chi
05-02-2007, 01:29 AM
Vetoing a bill is hardly grounds for impeachment. I believe Article 2 Section 4 of the U.S. Constitution establishes the grounds for impeachment.
The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors.
I will say lying to start a bloody war, count as a misdemeanour, Cutmeister.
They need to convict his ass, NOW.
He got to go!

For those people who still support him and his administration, are just delusional or they worship him as a prophet.
So, they're lost! :lol:

Jae Onasi
05-02-2007, 01:37 AM
Clarification on Dagobahn Eagle's comment about stem cell research....

He has not stopped adult stem cell research, which is the most promising field for continuing development of medical treatments anyway. He also has not pulled funding for experimentation on existing embryonic stem cell lines. He will now allow government funding for new embryonic stem cell lines to be created since that currently involves destruction of embryos. Private funding is still allowed.

Making the blanket statement that 'he doesn't support stem cell research' is misleading at best and disingenuous at worst.

moderator note: Watch the language/tone/expletives. I'm not going to work too hard at editing posts, and I'll delete them if it's going to be too much work to edit. This is a friendly discussion forum.

Windu Chi
05-02-2007, 02:07 AM
moderator note: Watch the language/tone/expletives. I'm not going to work too hard at editing posts, and I'll delete them if it's going to be too much work to edit. This is a friendly discussion forum.Ok, Jae or miss moral it's obviously you are talking to me, I'm the only saying bad words that FCC deem uncivilized.

Jae Onasi
05-02-2007, 02:11 AM
Ok, Jae or miss moral it's obviously you are talking to me, I'm the only saying bad words that FCC deem uncivilized.

If I was speaking just to you I would have sent you a PM. :)

This has the potential to be a flame-y kind of subject for a lot of people, hence the general comment.

SilentScope001
05-02-2007, 02:25 AM
It could be best just to lock this, really.

If it becomes problematic the moderating staff will address it as appropriate. --Jae

I am not in favour of any impeachment effort. The Democrats can do it, they just need a majority vote to bring Bush to trial, and bringing Bush to trial is basically "impeachment". I am against it. It is just too overtly political and in the end, it means nothing, in any sense of the word.

ET Warrior
05-02-2007, 02:32 AM
It might mean that Bush has to at least FACE trial for the crimes he has committed. I think a little symbolism at least would go a long way, and might actually remind politicians that they are supposed to be representing us, as opposed to taking advantage of us.

Char Ell
05-02-2007, 02:33 AM
Hell yeah he should be impeached!
They need to veto his ass out of office, NOW. Statements like this make me think of the oft-quoted Aristotle statement, "The law is reason free from passion." I really don't think Aristotle held much water on this one as I realize this is an ideal, not reality, but it's what came to mind when I read the comment quoted above.
Has he broken any laws? Well... only 26 very serious and important ones (summary):
* Deception of Congress and the American Public
...
Laws and Guidelines Prohibiting Conflicts of Interest (28 U.S.C. § 528, etc.)


And that's but the tip of the 750-law ice berg.A very impressive list of allegations, no doubt. But of course as you have already recognized there doesn't seem to be much momentum in the House of Representatives towards impeaching President Bush, despite the efforts of Representative Kucinich. It makes me think that the allegations really don't have a whole lot of weight behind them because if they did then Representative Kucinich would have a great many more of his fellow Democrats supporting his efforts.
I will say lying to start a bloody war, count as a misdemeanour, Cutmeister. Yes, but during impeachment proceedings one needs to prove that the president purposefully lied. It doesn't seem to me that anyone has solid proof on this one and understanding somewhat the nature of how things work in Washington D.C. I think it rather unlikely such proof will be found.

The question at hand is whether or not President George W. Bush should be impeached. I don't think there is enough solid evidence available to warrant impeachment proceedings, in spite of the concerted efforts of many impassioned anti-Bush people to come up with grounds for kicking Bush out of office.

Bimmerman
05-02-2007, 02:34 AM
No. He shouldn't be impeached. He's screwed up royally, and I don't support him at all, but impeachement is a bit much. Dick Cheney deserves impeachement much more than Bush does, as Cheney's the brains behind the incompetent duo. Bush just gets the credit.

Totenkopf
05-02-2007, 02:49 AM
DE's list of allegations aside, what would be the specific charge? It would need to be more specific than a kind of show trial to "put the fear of god" in present and future politicians, who more often than not would fall into the category of taking advantage of the populace, rather than representing it (a tall fractious order all by itself). After the debacle of Clinton's impeachment (the only other one on the books is Johnson in the 19th century), it's unlikely that Bush would be impeached with <2 yrs in his last term (if only b/c the numbers just aren't there).

Frankly, about the only reason I could see to impeach W would be over mishandling of the illegal immigration issue. But, then, you'd probably have to throw out much of the Congress and individual state/local governments as well. If vetoes were grounds for impeachment, FDR would've lasted less than 2 terms (600 +/- in 3 terms).

SilentScope001
05-02-2007, 02:52 AM
A very impressive list of allegations, no doubt. But of course as you have already recognized there doesn't seem to be much momentum in the House of Representatives towards impeaching President Bush, despite the efforts of Representative Kucinich. It makes me think that the allegations really don't have a whole lot of weight behind them because if they did then Representative Kucinich would have a great many more of his fellow Democrats supporting his efforts.

Actually, that might not be somewhat good logical reasoning. While I am against impeachment, the object of discussion is: "Should the House of Represnatives Impeach Bush?" We are questioning the desicion of the House to not Impeach Bush, so stating that since the House does not impeach Bush, we should not impeach Bush...is somewhat fallicous. Begging the question. But, I do agree with you that the Democrats are making a good desicion.

Let's start with the rebuttal, please...


* Deception of Congress and the American Public
o Committing a Fraud Against the United States (18 U.S.C. § 371)

To commit a fraud, you must lie. From what I can tell, Bush was honestly mistaken.

o Making False Statements Against the United States (18 U.S.C. § 1001)


o War Powers Resolution (Public Law 93-148)

Bush is the commander-in-cheif, and he got full premission from Congress to invade Iraq, so everything is fine. Unless you wish to use the War Powers Resolution clause to attack Bush for invading Afghanistan without prior authorization from Congress...but that's a tenous case, and while Iraq is unpopular, Afgahnistan is popular.

o Misuse of Government Funds (31 U.S.C. § 1301)

One person's pork is another person's Very Important Project.

* Improper Detention, Torture, and Other Inhumane Treatment
o Anti-Torture Statute (18 U.S.C. § 2340-40A)

CIA and FBI are able to determine definition of tortue. Many things that are not considered tortue, like keeping people locked up in a cell for a very, very long time...does seem like tortue. All this does is state that tortue is wrong, but if those in power determines what tortue actually is...you got nothing.

Abu Gariah is the only place where tortue actually was committed. But, it is not linked to Bush, and it is likely an isolated incident by very troubled youths. Maybe it isn't...but since this is in question, your case isn't airtight.

o The War Crimes Act (18 U.S.C. § 2441)

That Act bans all "grave vioaltions" of the Genva Convention...however...Bush deterimines what the Gevena Convention means. He states that enemy combantants are not prisoners of wars, and therefore, are not covered by the Convention. Agree or disagree, but this is what Bush says, therefore, Bush did not violate these laws.

o The Geneva Conventions and Hague Convention: International Laws Governing the Treatment of Detainees
o United Nations Convention Against Torture, and Cruel, Inhuman and Degrading Treatment: International Laws Governing the Treatment of Detainees

As above. Bush says that it is not tortue, therefore, for all intents and purposes, it is not tortue.

o Command Responsibility (for known illegal acts of subordinates in the military)

1) Prove to me that there were acts in the military that were illegal.
2) Prove to me that Bush did these illegal acts.

o Detainment of Material Witnesses (18 U.S.C. § 3144)

From what I see, there seems to be nothing wrong with this. Looks to me that FBI is abusing the law rather than violating it.

* Retaliating against Witnesses and Other Individuals
o Obstruction Congress (18 U.S.C. § 1505)
o Whistleblower Protection (5 U.S.C. § 2302)
o The Lloyd-LaFollette Act, or "anti-gag rule" (5 U.S.C. § 7211)
o Retaliating against Witnesses (18 U.S.C. § 1513)

...How?

There is no proof Libby is ever connected to Chency. It's all speculation.

* Leaking and other Misuse of Intelligence and other Government Information
o Revealing Classified Information in Contravention of Federal Regulations (Executive Order 12958/Classified Information Nondisclosure Agreement)
o Statutory Prohibitions on Leaking Information (18 U.S.C. § 641, etc.)

Again, there is no proof.

Laws Governing Electronic Surveillance
o Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (50 U.S.C. § 1801, et seq.)
o National Security Act of 1947 (50 U.S.C. chapter 15)
o Communications Act of 1934 (47 U.S.C. § 222)
o Stored Communications Act of 1986 (18 U.S.C. § 2702)
o Pen Registers or Trap and Trace Devices (18 U.S.C. § 3121)

I'd agree with you on this. But this is not a problem with Bush, this is a problem with the FBI and the CIA heads. And I trust this power will be expanded under the Democrats as well. Bush is not responsible for this, so bring these people to justice...

Or change the law so that the CIA and the FBI are legally allowed to do such a thing.

Laws and Guidelines Prohibiting Conflicts of Interest (28 U.S.C. § 528, etc.)

Where is the conflict of interest? Haliborton? It seems to me that, well, er...yes. Looks to me that there was favoring of certain companies over another. But you have to prove it though, rather than relying on hearsay. And is that grounds of impeachment though? Remember Whitewater though...
===
And I could go through the whole list as well. But basically, this is a small sample of how a person can easily declare that the impeachment case has no merit.

The only way that I can see bush getting impeached is if he flew a kite within Washigton, D.C. limits. Since it is illegal to fly kites in Washigtion, D.C. a person can then declare that since he broke the law, he should be Impeached.

Nancy Allen``
05-02-2007, 08:21 AM
Aside from Iraq, something he may or may not be held accountable for (America being renounced from the UN? I think it's big enough to warrent such action were it to be taken up) what crimes can be levelled at Bush's feet? September 11? Convince me that he should be impeeched and I'll vote for it.

Char Ell
05-02-2007, 08:31 AM
Actually, that might not be somewhat good logical reasoning. While I am against impeachment, the object of discussion is: "Should the House of Represnatives Impeach Bush?" We are questioning the desicion of the House to not Impeach Bush, so stating that since the House does not impeach Bush, we should not impeach Bush...is somewhat fallicous. Begging the question. But, I do agree with you that the Democrats are making a good desicion.Oy Scopester! I do believe you misinterpreted my statement. I see nothing fallacious (I believe that is the word you meant to use) or logically unsound about my argument as my argument was not Bush should not be impeached because the House isn't impeaching him.

Dagobahn Eagle provided a list of all the laws that Bush has allegedly broken. My argument was simply that these allegations are apparently without much merit. If otherwise then we would see a lot more action in the Democrat-controlled House of Representatives towards impeaching President Bush as I believe we all know they would love to find something to impeach Bush for. Instead all we see is Representative Kucinich, an aspiring 2008 presidential candidate and therefore IMO with questionable motives, working towards this end. And actually I was wrong about that as Kucinich is trying to impeach Vice President Cheney (http://www.nytimes.com/cq/2007/04/24/cq_2628.html), not President Bush.

SilentScope001
05-02-2007, 10:50 AM
Dagobahn Eagle provided a list of all the laws that Bush has allegedly broken. My argument was simply that these allegations are apparently without much merit. If otherwise then we would see a lot more action in the Democrat-controlled House of Representatives towards impeaching President Bush as I believe we all know they would love to find something to impeach Bush for. Instead all we see is Representative Kucinich, an aspiring 2008 presidential candidate and therefore IMO with questionable motives, working towards this end. And actually I was wrong about that as Kucinich is trying to impeach Vice President Cheney, not President Bush.

Ah, here we go. Instead of arguing that Bush should not be impeached because they are not impeaching Bush, it is rather that the causes have no merit because he is not impeached. My bad. And yes, I do agree.

EDIT: Got done reading through the Impeachment. The charges that Chency lied, I feel, has not been proven quite effectively, since it is all cicrumstanal evidence, and the charges that Chency is being bombastic towards Iran...well...that's going to lose a lot of support of the anti-Iranian crowd. It's not going to pass though, because the Democrats are not backing it...and due to that Iranian clause. Many Americans who would love to sign a bill bringing Bush to trial would reconsider after reading the Iranian clause.

If I was going to impeach Mr. Chency, and I would not, I need to actually find a link between Chency and lying. Since such a link can't be found, I would merely have to "create" it. Cite an anymous whisteblower who said, "I talked to Chency and Chency said, 'Listen. I know there is no evidence that Saddam Hussien has nuclear weapons. I don't care. Saddam has them, and we have to stop him before the mushroom cloud is formed.'" There. Sounds IC enough, good justification, and enough to horrify people. And, the best part is, Chency can't deny the allegations, because the whistleblower's name is classified. Everyone trust a whistleblower, so with that, I think that would be enough evidence to rally the majority of the Democrats to bring Chency to trial.

Ethical? Sure. Bush lied, we went to war. Democrats lie, we get to bring Bush to trial.

GarfieldJL
05-02-2007, 10:57 AM
Yeah, but they don't have the 2/3 majority to override the veto. They barely had a majority to get it passed in the first place.

It also had a lot of completely unrelated crap/pork added to it, just to make that more interesting.


They had pork in the form of aid to Katrina victims and stuff like that as a way to bribe/blackmail people into voting for it and actually telling them that the aid will not be offered again in a seperate bill. Isn't bribery an impeachable offense, guess there is more to go after the Democrats for legally than the there is to go after the President.

SilentScope001
05-02-2007, 11:07 AM
They had pork in the form of aid to Katrina victims and stuff like that as a way to bribe/blackmail people into voting for it and actually telling them that the aid will not be offered again in a seperate bill. Isn't bribery an impeachable offense, guess there is more to go after the Democrats for legally than the there is to go after the President.

Of course not. Bribery/pork barrel projects is needed in the USA. Without it, how can small states get the money they need? Plus, only composes 1% of the US budget, so a bit of waste is fine. (Bush would have signed such pork, if say, it would basically support him...remember, one's pork is another person's Very Important Project)

Not to mention, if Pork Barrel is an impeachable offense, we'll have to impeach every single Congressman, Republican, or Democrat. While that may be quite fun to watch the ensuring confusion, I don't think that would be necessary.

GarfieldJL
05-02-2007, 11:20 AM
Blackmailing someone into voting for something that they are staunchly opposed by stating that their State isn't going to get needed aid otherwise and it will be used against them in the 08 election is blackmail.


Furthermore, are those charges from MoveOn.org, cause MoveOn.org is not a valid source due to extreme bias. In fact one could argue the bulk of the mainstream media has a credibility problem. Based on a study conducted by UCLA, as well as the books Bias and Arrogance by Bernard Goldberg.

Then there is the book Unlimited Access concerning the Clinton White House, there are a lot of things that have been going on that the media is conveintly not reporting about because it doesn't promote their left-wing agenda.

Btw, the reason the media was so skittish for a while is not out of support for the president, rather it was the fact TIMEs had its head handed to it when it wrote an article condoning the behavior of a man that bombed police stations in the 1960s and it was distributed on September 11, 2001.

Then there is Rathergate which occurred in 04. And the picturegate during the Lebanon/Israeli conflict, so excuse me for finding your charges rather hard to believe, cause in my mind a lot of the media has lost all credibility, excluding Fox News which actually is pretty close to center.

On a side note Bush and Kerry went to the same University, and Bush got better grades than Kerry did. So if Bush is as dumb as a box of rocks, does that make Kerry braindead?

Windu Chi
05-02-2007, 01:43 PM
Yes, but during impeachment proceedings one needs to prove that the president purposefully lied. It doesn't seem to me that anyone has solid proof on this one and understanding somewhat the nature of how things work in Washington D.C. I think it rather unlikely such proof will be found.

Well, I think that it is obvious he has lied to get us in a blood thirsty war with no end.
No, bio weapons, no chemical weapons, no nuclear weapons and no al-Qaida connection in Iraq.
He and his useless administration completely lied to us !



The question at hand is whether or not President George W. Bush should be impeached. I don't think there is enough solid evidence available to warrant impeachment proceedings, in spite of the concerted efforts of many impassioned anti-Bush people to come up with grounds for kicking Bush out of office.

Then you're lost if you believe there is no soild evidence. :lol:
Are you kidding me, no soild evidence. :lol:
C'mon, cutmeister! :lol:

Pavlos
05-02-2007, 01:54 PM
I still can't believe that the president of the USA can veto things... it hardly seems democratic. Isn't the president simply the first among equals (as is the case in many other representative democracies, including the UK)? I don't understand this king-like power a president takes on when he is sworn into office.

tk102
05-02-2007, 02:46 PM
Isn't the president simply the first among equals (as is the case in many other representative democracies, including the UK)? I don't understand this king-like power a president takes on when he is sworn into office.
No, the Executive is separate branch in the U.S. government whereas the U.K. Prime Minister is head of the Legislative branch. As such, the veto power of the Executive is the primary check to the powers of the Legislative. The power of impeachment that we're discussing here is one of the Legislative checks to Executive powers.

Prime
05-02-2007, 02:55 PM
Well, I think that it is obvious he has lied to get us in a blood thirsty war with no end.
No, bio weapons, no chemical weapons, no nuclear weapons and no al-Qaida connection in Iraq.
He and his useless administration completely lied to us !

Then you're lost if you believe there is no soild evidence. :lol:
Are you kidding me, no soild evidence. :lol:
C'mon, cutmeister! :lol:Prove it. Can you?

If not, making these kinds of statements isn't helping the debate any.

Dagobahn Eagle
05-02-2007, 03:06 PM
OK, first and foremost: Again, I know Bush'll never be impeached. My goal, therefore, when saying he should be is to convince people to stop supporting him.

To commit a fraud, you must lie. From what I can tell, Bush was honestly mistaken.Three words: Downing Street Memo (http://www.google.no/search?source=ig&hl=no&q=downing+street+memo&btnG=Google-s%C3%B8k&meta=).

Bush is the commander-in-chief, and he got full premission from Congress to invade Iraq, so everything is fine.No. The US has violated International Law by launching a pre-emptive attack on a sovereign nation without UN clearance.

Look at it this way: You are a free citizen, I presume, of the USA. Yet you have to abide by your nation's laws. Likewise, the US is a sovereign nation, but still needs to abide by International Law.

That the US got permission from itself to invade Iraq means absolutely nothing. Using the same reasoning, I can say it was totally OK for North Korea to invade South Korea, or for Japan to pre-emptively bomb Pearl Harbour. In both cases, I'm certain that the leaders of North Korea and Japan, respectively, filed the necessary paperwork and got the required clearances from within to take action. Doesn't change the fact that they broke International Law.

CIA and FBI are able to determine definition of tortue.Whoopie-doo.

Many things that are not considered tortue, like keeping people locked up in a cell for a very, very long time...does seem like tortue.It is torture, pal. It has a very destructive effect on your mental and physical health (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solitary_confinement#_note-Torture), just like methods widely accepted as torture, such as electrodes attached to your testicles. But then again, maybe that's not torture either, despite the horrific pain it induces. Maybe it just seems like it.

All this does is state that torture is wrong, but if those in power determines what torture actually is...you got nothing.So North Korea is totally within its rights to mercilessly beat up its detainees because they don't recognize it as torture? The Tienanmen massacre was perfectly fine as the People's Republic of China didn't call it a massacre? If a criminal does not recognize that what he does is a crime, he's not committing a crime? What a lovely philosophy.

Abu Gariah is the only place where tortue actually was committed.Add Guantánamo to the list of known places where torture was and possibly still is committed.

But, it is not linked to Bush, and it is likely an isolated incident by very troubled youths.'It was an isolated incident committed by rogues further down the ranks, and those responsible have been punished'. How very original. It's not as if every single organization and government, from the small-town mafia to the hot shot superpower uses that excuse when caught with its pants down.

Maybe it isn't...but since this is in question, your case isn't airtight.Not only is there ample proof Bush and his cronies were behind the torture in various detention camps, he and said cronies have publicly defended torture as a vital weapon against terrorism.

That Act bans all "grave vioaltions" of the Genva Convention...however...Bush deterimines what the Gevena Convention means.The Geneva Conventions are not some obscure bronze age scripture that you can warp and twist to fit your agenda. They are laid down by the Red Cross, who have a perfectly clear idea of what their conventions mean. When you're subject to a law or treaty, Heck, any written agreement, you can't just suddenly decide 'nah, I don't care if we signed and agreed with it and stated we were fully aware of what it meant - I don't like it anymore, so let's just go ahead and say it means this instead'.

Oh, and can other nations do this, too? Can Iran declare that it interprets the 'Conventions as a go-ahead to torture? Would it be within its right to beat the captured sailors half to death because they 'interpreted the scriptures of Geneva' different from the Red Cross?

Agree or disagree, but this is what Bush says, therefore, Bush did not violate these laws.
Are you saying that because the criminal says he hasn't committed a crime, no crime has been committed? Do you believe that yourself? Do you honestly want your nation to be run that way?

Can I break into a person's house and escape prison because I've just decided that breaking into someone's house is not burglary? Can I suddenly decide what every law I disagree with means? Of course not.

As above. Bush says that it is not tortue, therefore, for all intents and purposes, it is not tortue.You're starting to scare me.

1) Prove to me that there were acts in the military that were illegal.Didn't you just admit that the Abu Grahib torture took place?

I could easily add more, though. What about the use of white phosphorous over Fallujah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_phosphorus_use_in_Iraq)?

2) Prove to me Bush was behind those acts.See very last paragraph of this post.

I'd agree with you on this. But this is not a problem with Bush, this is a problem with the FBI and the CIA heads.Of course. I cannot imagine that Bush and his cronies have done the slightest bit to support this, especially as they have condoned the practice publicly. Of course they wouldn't.

The only way that I can see bush getting impeached is if he flew a kite within Washigton, D.C. limits. Since it is illegal to fly kites in Washigtion, D.C. a person can then declare that since he broke the law, he should be Impeached.Oh, so now he's suddenly lost his ability to rewrite laws? He can't just say 'oh, I don't consider this thing a kite, so no harm done'?

Ah, here we go. Instead of arguing that Bush should not be impeached because they are not impeaching Bush, it is rather that the causes have no merit because he is not impeached. My bad. And yes, I do agree.You don't believe this yourself. He wasn't punished, so he can't have been guilty? What on Earth?

Expanding on the question of torture, I advise you to read this (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=164462) thread in its entirety. Bush's guilt is made abundantly clear by many posters, as is the fact that torture is a horrific crime more fitting to a Middle Eastern theocracy than a modern Western Republic.

Jae Onasi
05-02-2007, 03:19 PM
Take a deep breath, folks, and think about how you're saying things before you hit the 'post reply' button. We don't need to be sarcastic and caustic in our responses to each other.

@DE--if the Dems had significant solid proof, there would be an impeachment. Right now there are allegations that have no substantial, definitive proof. Regarding the UN resolutions, once Saddam violated all the UN resolutions, all bets were off. We didn't need specific further UN authorization to attack, it was already built into previous resolutions--if Saddam violated those, we had the authority to attack. Saddam did have WMDs--he used several nerve gas and chemical agents to wipe out several Kurdish villages. I'm sure he didn't use up his only stock against the Kurds.

Dagobahn Eagle
05-02-2007, 03:34 PM
@DE--if the Dems had significant solid proof, there would be an impeachmentThe Democrats do not have sufficient power to impeach Bush. I thought we made that clear earlier in the thread.

Right now there are allegations that have no substantial, definitive proof.Waitaminute... so you can invade a country based on heresay ('Saddam probably has WMDs!'), but your opponents need solid evidence?

There is evidence of torture, lying about Iraq, and illegal spying using the PATRIOT ACT. Or to put it another way - there's more evidence Bush is worthy of impeachment than there ever was of Iraq possessing a WMD arsenal.

Regarding the UN resolutions, once Saddam violated all the UN resolutions, all bets were off. We didn't need specific further UN authorization to attack, it was already built into previous resolutions--if Saddam violated those, we had the authority to attack.The UN made it perfectly clear that the Coalition was not allowed to invade Iraq. The invasion was a violation of UN decisions and thus not legal.

Saddam did have WMDs--he used several nerve gas and chemical agents to wipe out several Kurdish villages. I'm sure he didn't use up his only stock against the Kurds.Doesn't matter. The agents had a very short shelf life (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarin#Shelf_life) and thus can not have existed by 2003. You know how ice cream tends to melt in room temperature, so that even if you don't eat it, it goes away? Sarin and the other gases are a lot like that. Use them quickly or they become useless.

No WMDs were ever found. Three years have passed, and still none have been found. What is more, the Dubya administration deliberately overstated the WMD threat to justify its invasion (http://www.downingstreetmemo.com/whycare.html).

Pavlos
05-02-2007, 03:45 PM
No, the Executive is separate branch in the U.S. government whereas the U.K. Prime Minister is head of the Legislative branch. As such, the veto power of the Executive is the primary check to the powers of the Legislative. The power of impeachment that we're discussing here is one of the Legislative checks to Executive powers.

I only brought it up because someone mentioned vetoing something that had already gone through the house of representatives and I thought I'd just pop in and ask a question about it. :)

Edit: I see that both bodies are equally in check. I'm still adverse to the idea of a president saying no to the elected representatives, though - even if they do have the power of impeachment.

mimartin
05-02-2007, 04:20 PM
I voted no. Not because I like or believe a word my President says, but because I don't see where he has violated a law (that can be proven).

I disagreed with the Republican Congress for trying to impeach President Clinton for political reasons and I’d disagree just as strongly with this Democratic Congress for trying the same thing. Even if there was proof that he violated a law, illegal wiretapping, for instants, there isn’t the time to get him out of office before his term is up. All it would do is waste more tax money.

If Congress really wants to stop the war, then don’t pass the spending bill or send it to him again without the pork, but with the same requirement to pull out.

I’m against the war, but I’m for the troops. I can not believe they still don’t have the equipment needed to protect themselves. I hope Congress passes a bill, without playing politics, and the bill does what is in the best interest for our young men and women in harms way. I really don’t care what my President wants; they need to do what’s best for the troops and the people of Iraq.

I agree that the American people, Congress and the rest of the world was misinformed by the administrations augments for invading Iraq. They did a really good job using terminology to protect their butts. Making up new words that mean whatever they say the word means. That is why it is impossible to show where they lied or misled, but we all know the truth. It is funny they call President Bill Clinton, Slick Willie, but he has nothing on this one.

The American people had a chance to get rid of him and choose to keep him, now for the good and the bad he’s our President. At least until January 2009.

The UN made it perfectly clear that the Coalition was not allowed to invade Iraq. The invasion was a violation of UN decisions and thus not legal.

How does not getting the approval of the UN make it illegal. For that matter, what authority does the UN have to make it legal to invade another Nation? Can they make it legal to invade a Nation that is not part of the UN?

I don’t see the UN and don’t want the UN to be the world’s authority. I was under the impression that the UN was formed to prevent wars, not authorize them.

I don’t see the UN of much use anymore and I really don’t see them as a place for action. I don’t want to wait for their discussions and debates before they try to solve the world’s problems. I’m sure there are a lot of people in Darfur that will agree with that.

Totenkopf
05-02-2007, 04:22 PM
Frankly, DE the war in Iraq, much like in Korea of the 50's, never officially ended in anything other than a ceasefire. Upon Iraq violating the conditions of said cease-fire, the war continues. Simple. Further, wasn't aware that UN was now the One World Government with legal authority (never mind it's utterly complete lack of ability) to punish any government that "violates" its "authority". Wonder where it was at Tiennamen or any of the other hotspots in the world (Rwanda, say). The UN is little more than a corrupt organization that countries mystifyingly wrap around themselves to assert moral authrity where none really truly exists. I'm guessing that it's just a cynical manipulation used by whomever does it (including the US) to achieve a policy end.

Jae Onasi
05-02-2007, 05:01 PM
Edit: I see that both bodies are equally in check. I'm still adverse to the idea of a president saying no to the elected representatives, though - even if they do have the power of impeachment.

Congress can override the veto with a 2/3 majority, so the Pres doesn't have unlimited power.

@DE--I'm not saying he didn't do anything wrong--I'm saying there's not enough _good_ proof to _convict_ him, since it's 'innocent til proven guilty' here rather than 'guilty til proven innocent' like in those countries whose legal systems are derived from Napoleonic Code.

It's entirely possible that Bush believed the horrible intelligence he got from the field. Since that introduces 'reasonable doubt' into the equation, it'd be impossible to convict him on that particular issue, which is the one Congress would have the best chance of getting him on.

Char Ell
05-02-2007, 10:12 PM
OK, first and foremost: Again, I know Bush'll never be impeached. I don't consider Bush being impeached as being completely out of the realm of possibility. Far from it. Something solid and clearly defined that the general public can latch onto would be all that it would take. The situation with former President Clinton and the Monica Lewinsky affair demonstrated how this can happen.
The Democrats do not have sufficient power to impeach Bush. I thought we made that clear earlier in the thread. I personally would rephrase this as the Democrats do not have sufficient evidence to impeach President Bush. If they did have the evidence then they would have the power to impeach him.
Look at it this way: You are a free citizen, I presume, of the USA. Yet you have to abide by your nation's laws. Likewise, the US is a sovereign nation, but still needs to abide by International Law.A subject for a different thread I believe. International law has no bearing on whether President Bush should be impeached as the President of the United States of America is sworn to uphold and protect the United States Constitution, not international law.
Waitaminute... so you can invade a country based on heresay ('Saddam probably has WMDs!'), but your opponents need solid evidence?Apples to oranges comparison. I believe Jae Onasi is stating there isn't sufficient evidence to impeach Bush. You retort with the U.S.A. using questionable intelligence as its basis for invading Iraq. Two different circumstances that are invalid for comparison. The issue at hand is whether Bush should be impeached, not America's grounds for invasion of Iraq.

GarfieldJL
05-04-2007, 09:17 AM
I don't consider Bush being impeached as being completely out of the realm of possibility. Far from it. Something solid and clearly defined that the general public can latch onto would be all that it would take. The situation with former President Clinton and the Monica Lewinsky affair demonstrated how this can happen.

Actually Clinton was impeached for lieing under oath before a Federal Grand Jury. Also at this point, it wouldn't surprise me that evidence used to impeach Bush would later turn out to be bogus like the forged documents that CBS used to try to get it so Bush would lose the 04 election.


I personally would rephrase this as the Democrats do not have sufficient evidence to impeach President Bush. If they did have the evidence then they would have the power to impeach him.

It's more of they lack votes, in my opinion the Democrats have such an irrational hatred of Bush they'd impeach him even though there isn't a legitimate reason.


A subject for a different thread I believe. International law has no bearing on whether President Bush should be impeached as the President of the United States of America is sworn to uphold and protect the United States Constitution, not international law.

I'd go further and state that the UN has demonstrated it is riddled with so much corruption it is laughable that we should even trust it.


Apples to oranges comparison. I believe Jae Onasi is stating there isn't sufficient evidence to impeach Bush. You retort with the U.S.A. using questionable intelligence as its basis for invading Iraq. Two different circumstances that are invalid for comparison. The issue at hand is whether Bush should be impeached, not America's grounds for invasion of Iraq.

To expand further, acting on intelligence that turns out later to be false is not an impeachable offense, it is more of something that needs to be addressed in the CIA, not the President. Further, I would say that could be considered Clinton's fault for gutting our military and the CIA.

SilentScope001
05-04-2007, 12:50 PM
Actually Clinton was impeached for lieing under oath before a Federal Grand Jury. Also at this point, it wouldn't surprise me that evidence used to impeach Bush would later turn out to be bogus like the forged documents that CBS used to try to get it so Bush would lose the 04 election

Clinton DID NOT LIE.

When he said that he did not do [Something Perverse], he really mean he did not do [Something Perverse]. He really meant that he did [Something Else Pervese], that is a little different from [Something Perverse], but not totally. Therefore, Clinton never lied.

(And, no I'm not going to fill in the blanks. Both acts are equally perverse, and anyone who followed the crisis may know what I am talking about. I guess you could PM me so I can fill it in for you...)

And Clinton getting impeached because he lied about [Something Perverse]? I can understand the trust issue, but it just sounds so werid to impeach someone on that issue. Impeaching Clinton on corruption is far more better than impeaching Clinton on this issue. I would rather like a President who lie about [Something Perverse]...I really don't need to know something like that.

It's more of they lack votes, in my opinion the Democrats have such an irrational hatred of Bush they'd impeach him even though there isn't a legitimate reason.

I concur. So do Republicans and their hatred of Clinton that they are willing to impeach him even though there isn't a really legitimate reason. Both political parties has their faults.

Well, not so much that the Democrats has an irrational hatred of Bush. Their hatred is totally rational, and that if they unite, they do have votes. It's the Far Left who call for Impeachment, and they do not have the votes from the majority of the Democrats. However, the Democrats control the House of Represenatives, they can impeach Bush just like the Republicans impeached Clinton. But, it would all be a political mess, which no real point.

I'd go further and state that the UN has demonstrated it is riddled with so much corruption it is laughable that we should even trust it.

Nah. It's corrupt, but so is every other government on the planet. The UN is useful because it reveals what the World thinks of us. If the World hates us, the UN says so directly in our face. This sort of feedback helps us in gauging how much the World is ready to lynch the United States of America, which I feel, is so very useful.

Plus, it also allows for a forum where you get to talk to other governments, and get them to agree to certain stuff. Working with the UN to pass resolutions in general is somewhat silly since resolutions are mere paper, but making sly deals with other nations within the body is not silly. It is, in fact, skillful diplomacy. Even the resolutions' vote act as a gauge for how much the United States of America is loved...or hated. I think such a gague is necessary, otherwise the USA might grow a bit too arrogant, and arrogance can lead to downfall.

Jae Onasi
05-04-2007, 01:26 PM
@DE--if the Dems had significant solid proof, there would be an impeachmentThe Democrats do not have sufficient power to impeach Bush. I thought we made that clear earlier in the thread.
If they had sufficient _good_ proof that would stand up to legal scrutiny, the Republicans would have to side with the Dems or risk a scandal. The other thought in the back of their minds is if Bush is impeached and resigns, Cheney becomes President.

Right now there are allegations that have no substantial, definitive proof.Waitaminute... so you can invade a country based on heresay ('Saddam probably has WMDs!'), but your opponents need solid evidence?
I'm with cutmeister--what does making a decision based on bad intelligence have to do with the legal requirements of proof for impeachment? There is no solid proof linking Bush _directly_ to anything impeachable. You'd have to prove that he lied about WMDs instead of simply being mistaken--that argument will never stand up in court. You'd have to prove that he _directly_ told people to torture prisoners at Abu Ghraib. You'll never find that kind of proof.

There is evidence of torture, lying about Iraq, and illegal spying using the PATRIOT ACT. Or to put it another way - there's more evidence Bush is worthy of impeachment than there ever was of Iraq possessing a WMD arsenal.None of which can be linked directly to Bush himself, and that's the key point. We can't be 100% sure that he was lying about Iraq when he might have been given bad intel and based bad decisions on that.

Regarding the UN resolutions, once Saddam violated all the UN resolutions, all bets were off. We didn't need specific further UN authorization to attack, it was already built into previous resolutions--if Saddam violated those, we had the authority to attack.The UN made it perfectly clear that the Coalition was not allowed to invade Iraq. The invasion was a violation of UN decisions and thus not legal.
I don't buy it. Saddam violated a zillion resolutions, and our ceasefire was contingent on Saddam complying those resolutions, which were all decided in the UN. Any later UN 'decisions' were put in place because the UN leaders were terrified that they'd be implicated in the oil-for-food scandal, and France didn't want to lose a ton of telecom money. The UN under Annan was riddled with corruption, and none of the powers-that-be wanted that Iraq-related corruption coming to light.


Saddam did have WMDs--he used several nerve gas and chemical agents to wipe out several Kurdish villages. I'm sure he didn't use up his only stock against the Kurds.Doesn't matter. The agents had a very short shelf life (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarin#Shelf_life) and thus can not have existed by 2003. You know how ice cream tends to melt in room temperature, so that even if you don't eat it, it goes away? Sarin and the other gases are a lot like that. Use them quickly or they become useless.

Not all agents degrade that quickly--some remain active for a very long time. Even if those particular agents did degrade, the factories that produced those gases didn't disappear. Saddam had the demonstrated capacity to create and use chemical agents, and demonstrated capacity to send missiles with those agents flying around parts of the Middle East.

No WMDs were ever found. Three years have passed, and still none have been found. What is more, the Dubya administration deliberately overstated the WMD threat to justify its invasion (http://www.downingstreetmemo.com/whycare.html).

That's irrelevant to whether _Bush himself_ deliberately overstated it or if he was given bad intel.
The WMDs could be buried anywhere--the country's huge. Do you think WMDs could be hidden somewhere in the boonies of Texas and not be found? I do, and Iraq has twice the area of Texas and plenty of remote areas to hide things. Furthermore, some things may have been shipped over the border into Syria, and it's not like we can go search there.

I don't know if Bush lied or just believed bad info--it's impossible to tell, and it would be impossible for anyone to convict him because of that. It's impossible to prove that he _directly_ ordered torture or was the one _directly_ involved in any of the myriad other allegations you quote.

Any court is going to ask if he himself gave orders for torture, or intentionally lied. If he says he didn't, and they can't find any direct proof linking him to those crimes, then the prosecuter's screwed. In terms of the actual legal proceeding, it doesn't matter if he did it or not, it matters if you can _prove_ he did it or not, and until they have that kind of definitive proof, no impeachment will ever happen.

mimartin
05-04-2007, 03:00 PM
Actually Clinton was impeached for lying under oath before a Federal Grand Jury. Also at this point, it wouldn't surprise me that evidence used to impeach Bush would later turn out to be bogus like the forged documents that CBS used to try to get it so Bush would lose the 04 election.

Clinton was impeached for one reason politics, pure and simple it was for political reasons. They went after him for Whitewater and once they couldn’t find anything they went after what they could find.

If the Democrats in Congress go after Bush they will be playing the same game the Republican Congress played against Clinton and it will just be politics.

I agree the CBS was wrong for airing information about the forged documents. I do not agree that they were trying to make Bush lose the election. If the documents were real then it would have been news. CBS is guilty of not checking the facts and rushing to judgment. News organizations depend on trust and this misjudgment cost them that trust and creditability. Something they must have to do business and I do not believe they’d risk just to cost Bush a few votes. If Bush would of just released his complete military records this would of all been moot anyways.

To expand further, acting on intelligence that turns out later to be false is not an impeachable offense, it is more of something that needs to be addressed in the CIA, not the President. Further, I would say that could be considered Clinton's fault for gutting our military and the CIA.

That’s it blame the last guy for the failings under the control of the current administration. Whatever happened to the Buck stops here? If Bush thought that the CIA was in such deep trouble why did he keep a Clinton appointee on? For that matter, why did he trust the data so completely if the CIA was such a shell of it former self? I hope he trusted it completely to stake the lives of so many young people on it.

The so called gutting of the CIA and the military was due to a lack of vision and not the fault of Clinton or the first President Bush. The end of the Cold War brought what everyone called the Peace Dividend and American was happy to take full advantage of it. Until 911, I for one never envisioned someone using our own infrastructure against us in such a way. I will not blame anyone for not foreseeing such an event. If someone did, I personally, would not want them in my government with such a deviant mind.

Personally my problem with Americans going into Iraq stems from the job not being complete in Afghanistan. I didn’t like the idea of putting troops on two different fronts at the same time. I didn’t see where Iraq was much of a treat even with Weapons of Mass Destructions (another made up phrase used for propaganda). The only reason I could see going into Iraq was for the oil, but I didn’t believe my government would do such a thing.

Do you think WMDs could be hidden somewhere in the boonies of Texas and not be found?
Who’s been talking? I mean… of course not. I have to go do some gardening now.

GarfieldJL
05-04-2007, 07:46 PM
So you say perjury isn't a crime, seriously people go to prison for years for committing perjury. If Clinton had admitted about the affair it would have made him look bad, but he couldn't be impeached over it. Face it Clinton lied before a federal grand jury under oath and commited perjury. Do you want me to go out and find the transcripts to prove he lied under oath.

Nancy Allen``
05-04-2007, 07:48 PM
Please. Show us.

GarfieldJL
05-04-2007, 07:59 PM
Please. Show us.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_did_not_have_sexual_relations_with_that_woman


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paula_Jones

In April 1999, about two months after being acquitted by the Senate, Clinton was cited by Federal District Judge Susan Webber Wright for civil contempt of court for his "willful failure" to obey her repeated orders to testify truthfully in the Paula Jones sexual harassment lawsuit. For this citation, Clinton was assessed a $90,000 fine, and the matter was referred to the Arkansas Supreme Court to see if disciplinary action would be appropriate.[9]

Regarding Clinton's January 17, 1998, deposition where he was placed under oath, the judge wrote:

"Simply put, the president's deposition testimony regarding whether he had ever been alone with Ms. (Monica) Lewinsky was intentionally false, and his statements regarding whether he had ever engaged in sexual relations with Ms. Lewinsky likewise were intentionally false . . . ." [10]

In January 2001, on the day before leaving office, Clinton agreed to a five-year suspension of his Arkansas law license as part of an agreement with the independent counsel to end the investigation. Based on this suspension, Clinton was also automatically suspended from the United States Supreme Court bar, from which he chose to resign. [11]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinton_impeachment

The vote was practically entirely on party lines.

mimartin
05-07-2007, 12:19 PM
So you say perjury isn't a crime, seriously people go to prison for years for committing perjury. If Clinton had admitted about the affair it would have made him look bad, but he couldn't be impeached over it. Face it Clinton lied before a federal grand jury under oath and commited perjury. Do you want me to go out and find the transcripts to prove he lied under oath.

I didn’t say perjury was not a crime. I still believe the impeachment of Clinton was about one thing polities. I still don’t understand why a grand jury was asking about his sex life. The sex life between two consistenting adults is none of Kenneth Star’s or any one else’s business. Personally I was taught by my parents not to kiss and tell. So if I go in front of a grand jury and they ask about my sex life I will commit perjury too.

I’m not saying Clinton did not lie or cheat on his wife. I’m also not saying Clinton lied for noble reasons; he lied to protect his power. My reason for believing it is entirely political is still the question, why did they ask a question about his sex life to begin with? What did it have to do with Whitewater? The Republican where practicing a witch hunt on Clinton. What amazes me is with the type of scrutiny his entire life was under and the amount of money that was wasted looking at every aspect of his life is that they didn’t find out anything to impeach him for other than his inability to keep his pants up.

Of course he could of just quote “Presidential Privilege” and not of answered the grand juries questions like some Presidents would do and have done.

[url]The vote was practically entirely on party lines.

More proof that is was all about politics.

The Source
05-07-2007, 01:50 PM
do you guys think bush should be impeached or not?
i think he should so that the war spending bill can get passed
Why bother? Within a year and a half, Bush will finish his final term. It takes a good year to have a trial. If we are held up with impeachment issues, the War on Iraq will slide to the back burner. Thus, our men and women will be left in harms way until the next president. I know. I know. They are going to be in harms way until the next president anyway, but I prefer him to just stay focued on what he is doing. Do I agree with the war? Yes & No. Do I think we are doing a hellish job? Yep.

I do not think that the Democrats have any real issues. I think they are going to keep having their votes until the upcoming election. Truefully, I think they are wasting their time now. They do not have enough votes, so they are running out of confidence. Eventualy the issue will just drop, and the Democrats will cave in to send our troops money. Its all a show.

Obama <--- I keep hearing about this guy, but he has absolutely no experience in anything. He doesn't take firm stances on any issue except for Iraq. I like his positive attitude, but he has nothing to stand on.

Edwards <--- Out of all the Republican and Democratic possibilities, I think Edwards is the most humble. Unfortunately, I do not think he has enough people on his side. Too bad. I would have voted for him.

I am actually Republican by votes, but I have no problem voting on the oposite side. Personally, I do not put my self into any category.

GarfieldJL
05-07-2007, 03:07 PM
The situation is that the Democrats are hurting our troops while doing this, it is emboldening the terrorists in Iraq and I believe the Democrats are well aware of this and are doing it to undermine the President and pull the rug out from under our troops.

mimartin
05-07-2007, 03:32 PM
The situation is that the Democrats are hurting our troops while doing this, it is emboldening the terrorists in Iraq and I believe the Democrats are well aware of this and are doing it to undermine the President and pull the rug out from under our troops.

The Democrats are hurting the troops while doing what? They are not impeaching the President. They are not even holding up the spending bill they sent it to the President and he vetoed it. If anything his hard headedness is the problem. If he would set down and listen to others. He has the final word, but he is only 1/3 of our government and congress controls the money.

Everyone needs to do what is in the best interest of our troops, the Iraqi people and our country. They need to leave their personal feelings and their party affliction at the door and set down then work it out. Pulling out is breaking our promises to the Iraqi people, while staying the course is not working. It is time for new ideas.

GarfieldJL
05-07-2007, 04:09 PM
Demanding a time table to withdraw with dates, handing over Iraq to the terrorists.

Saying that the war in Iraq is lost. (Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid said that)

Going to Syria despite the objections of the White House. (Nancy Pelosi Democrat)

You want me to continue pointing out how they are undermining the President and our troops.

mimartin
05-07-2007, 05:37 PM
Demanding a time table to withdraw with dates, handing over Iraq to the terrorists.

Saying that the war in Iraq is lost. (Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid said that)

Going to Syria despite the objections of the White House. (Nancy Pelosi Democrat)

You want me to continue pointing out how they are undermining the President and our troops.

Pelosi wasn't the only one that went to Syria. People from both parties went, but Pelosi was the only one Bush objected to going publicly. I see this as a slap on the face to Bush not the troops.

As a citizen of the United States Harry Reid is allow to say how he feels. A majority of the people feel the same way. Personally I feel it lost unless the two parties work together. Staying the course and not listen to others views is a problem that will and has cost the troops, the Iraqi people and the US taxpayer.

Saying they are not involved in a civil war to me undermines the troops and America’s confidence in the President more than anything you've pointed out here.

Not having proper armor for vehicles and personal also show me a lack of respect and support of the troops. They’ve had 4 years to get our troops the proper equipment, but I guess it is not cost feasible.

I’m against a time table, but if the government of Iraq isn’t going to meet its requirements to its own people then why should we? I see nothing wrong with setting dates for them to achieve certain goals or we do leave. You can’t help someone that does not want to help themselves.

Bush had a rubber stamp on his policies for 4 years. The war wasn’t going especially well with that rubber stamp. Now he needs to work the other side to get things done. That was his strength as the Texas Governor, but his weakness so far as our President.

The Source
05-07-2007, 05:48 PM
People just don't question authority like they use to do in the '60s, '70s, '80s, and '90s. Somehow we in the United States started to protest in silence. I think the internet has replaced onlocation protesting. It is a shame.

SilentScope001
05-07-2007, 05:56 PM
It is time for new ideas.

I doubt it. My idea (brand new, of course) isn't exactly going to fly with the american public, and for really good reason. We are going to have to stick with the 2 ideas within the box, because they are the only good ones that the American people will accept.

People just don't question authority like they use to do in the '60s, '70s, '80s, and '90s. Somehow we in the United States started to protest in silence. I think the internet has replaced onlocation protesting. It is a shame.

Well, not exactly. While it may be harder on the surface to organize protests movements, Astroturfing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astroturfing) seems quite effective at providing the illusion of support, which, when combined with actual support, can make you quite powerful. Making websites, creating false accounts, and all that jazz. You can also find like-minded people online, then organize protest movements on the "cyberspace", carrying them out into the "real world".

Not to mention that you can raise money on the Internet from your allies, and radicalize your own members on the Internet to make them more resistant to your enemies. There are advantages and disadvantages with social trends, so use them to the best of your ability.

Edit:
Alright. Democrats, eat your heart out because I finally got a crime that can easily convict George W. Bush.

On July 6th, 2004...George W. Bush welcomes Iceland Prime Minister to White House, releasing a
press release (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/07/20040706-2.html). This also happened to be Bush's birthday as well. At the end of the press conference...

(Everyone sings "Happy Birthday" to the President.)

PRESIDENT BUSH: Thanks. You actually call that singing? (Laughter.) It was beautiful.

However, this is actually illegal. According to the Unhappy Birthday (http://www.unhappybirthday.com/) website:

Did you know Happy Birthday is copyrighted and the copyright is currently owned and actively enforced by Time Warner?

Did you know that if you sing any copyrighted song:
...at a place open to the public
...or among a substantial number of people who are not family or friends
You are involved in a public performance of that work?

Did you know an unauthorized public performance is a form of copyright infringement?

A quick link on wikipedia also talks about the history of "Happy Birthday To You" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Birthday_To_You) shows that this is indeed the case and that Bush has illegally pirated the song Happy Birthday without paying royalites.

Do you realize that Bush has just advocated piracy, and publically? By not paying Time Warner, they lost a lot of money, and I believe that violating copyright laws is grounds for impeachment. I realize that this is indeed a very strange case, but you take what you have. It seems like a very solid case. Bush violated copyright law. Impeachment applies to presidents who commited a crime. Therefore, now is the time to kick out Bush.

EDIT: Bush also was witnessed to a Happy Birthday (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/07/images/20050704_y2q0783ajasjpg-515h.html) song in his honor on July 4th, 2005, another instance of Copyright infrignment. Not only that, but he also was witnessed to another group of people who sung Happy Birthday to him on July 6th, 2006 (http://www.state.gov/p/eur/rls/rm/68640.htm). All these cases are publicilzed, and seem to be prompted by Bush himself, meaning that Bush secretly encouraged these people to violate Copyright Law. The crimes of Bush seems to have no bounds.

GarfieldJL
05-07-2007, 07:10 PM
You're allowed to sing a song and it wasn't for commercial purposes. Furthermore, the legality of copyrighting "Happy Birthday" is questionable. Not to mention this is more of splitting hairs.

SilentScope001
05-07-2007, 08:58 PM
You're allowed to sing a song and it wasn't for commercial purposes. Furthermore, the legality of copyrighting "Happy Birthday" is questionable.

Maybe, but as long as Time Warner continues to collect royalites (and where movies replace Happy Birthday with another songs to avoid paying these royalites), Time Warner is beahving as if the song is theres, even creating that "Unhappy Birthday" group, prehaps as being "astroturfing". Might as well help them out in the effort to help protect their claim, because it seems somewhat legit, if...strange.

GarfieldJL
05-07-2007, 10:07 PM
Isn't the happy birthday song from before Warner Bros. even existed? If so and they aren't the original author, their copyright doesn't stand up in court. Also Warner Brothers had to back down from things before. One involved them being counter sued for the name Brothers in their corporate name.

Jae Onasi
05-07-2007, 11:50 PM
I'm sure Bush's legal team would have been made aware of any copyright issues and paid appropriate royalties if so required.

Let's move back on topic.... :)

Ambrose
05-08-2007, 12:02 AM
EDIT: Bush also was witnessed to a Happy Birthday song in his honor on July 4th, 2005, another instance of Copyright infrignment.

The day we impeach a president because someone sang Happy Birthday in his presence is the day I renounce all ties to America.

Prime
05-08-2007, 11:50 AM
That is what it would take?

Nancy Allen``
05-08-2007, 06:51 PM
We're all very much teetering on the edge since the California elections were between a film star and the king and queen of the adult entertainment indistry.

Windu Chi
05-09-2007, 01:34 AM
We're all very much teetering on the edge since the California elections were between a film star and the king and queen of the adult entertainment indistry. You mean electing idiots in office, Nancy? :)

But Arnold Swarzenager seem to be a intelligent official who cares about Global Warming and Stem Cell research, not like some other republicans who still are continued residents of la la land saying that "Global Warming is a liberal hoax".

What nonsense, is this ! :disaprove
Just another lazy excuse to do nothing about the planet warming up.

Totenkopf
05-09-2007, 02:47 AM
Last I checked, the debate was NOT about whether the globe was getting any warmer, but WHY. That is where all the controversy is. Also, stem cell research is restricted, for federal funding purposes, to a small group of fetal stem cell lines and to adult lines in general (ie not embryonic). I'm not aware of private enterprise being so restricted.

GarfieldJL
05-09-2007, 04:47 PM
You want to go about stem cells, I have no problem with using Stem Cells from an umbilical cord or adult stem cells, I have a problem with going in and destroying human lives to harvest cells. The reason why I'm against abortion is because there is no way of knowing when the embryo/fetus/etc. has a soul. That's my issue, with abortions and subsequently why I'm against harvesting stem cells from aborted fetuses, because it devalues human life.

Jae Onasi
05-09-2007, 06:52 PM
Please continue the stem cell debate in its own thread. (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=176640) Thanks!

Now back to the topic of whether or not Bush should be impeached....