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View Full Version : Saving Christmas...will this plan work?


SilentScope001
05-02-2007, 02:26 AM
In an attempt to distract people from the ongoing flame wars about such-and-such, I want to throw out this purely hypotethical idea. I am worried that it might be shot down, which is why I am putting it here first rather than send it off to the world via a plebsitce and have it be shot down. This looks to be a good crosssection of both left-wing atheists and right-wing religious folk, which means that I hope that if this idea works in uniting these two forces in a compromise...well, okay.

You see, once upon a time, I heard that people are waging war on Christmas. Now, Christmas is a very important hoilday. Gifts are given, people meet up with each other at home, and everyone is united together in harmony. But Christmas has been termed a "Christan" hoilday. And I feel that is the reason why there is a war on Christmas to begin with, due to the fact that there are other religions other than Christanity. Only Christans can celebrate it, which is a shame, due to the fact that Christmas is a good hoilday? And what if Christanty dies? What if a brand new religion comes to the forefront, or we all become atheists? Will Christmas be forgotten?

But, Christmas is a good hoilday. I like Christmas, and its message of a Heroic Messiah coming in to save the Human Race. The idea of hope, and that everything will go better...is an idea that should get its own national hoilday.

Therefore, my idea is to rename Christmas into "Messiah Day", by transalting Christmas (Christ, after all, is Greek for Messiah). On this day, each person will think about the glories of the Messiah. But who is the Messiah that will be honored? Each person gets to decide that for himself. Christians honor their 'true' Messiah, Jesus Christ, while other faiths honor their own personal Messiahs or a Messiah yet to come, Capitalists could honor the Messiah known as Adam Smith, Communists could honor the Messiah known as Karl Marx, etc.

I really hope this does not offend religious folk in any way. I really don't want to make their traditions look like a mockery. I really want to save Christmas. But, er, maybe it might make a mockery.

ET Warrior
05-02-2007, 02:29 AM
Honestly, I don't think Christmas could be stopped even if anyone were legitimately trying. Have you noticed that shopping season for Christmas starts earlier every year? It's already pushed into Thanksgiving, and soon it will take it over. Next I'm guessing it'll set it's sights on Halloween.

Personally, as an Atheist I'd rather just keep calling it Christmas. I don't really associate any religious meaning with it anymore anyway.

Jae Onasi
05-02-2007, 02:51 AM
I'd probably call it Christmas forever since I've been calling it that for years. If someone wants to call it Messiah Day, more power to them.

Yes, I've noticed the shopping season has gotten earlier and earlier. Used to be Christmas stuff was not displayed until the day after Thanksgiving. Period. Now it shows up 30 seconds after Halloween ends, and sometimes even earlier than that. I don't like Thanksgiving taken over either--that's supposed to be a time to spend with family and to relax. In a very hectic season, it's important to have that down-time to relax and think about what to be be thankful for what we have rather than what gifts we're all going to get in a few weeks.

Totenkopf
05-02-2007, 02:53 AM
I don't believe that Christmas is in danger of disappearing any time soon here as it has been crassly commercialized for decades. Too much $$ to be made to be gotten rid of by anyone in a position to do so. Thats my cynical 2 cents worth......

Ray Jones
05-02-2007, 06:08 AM
Have you noticed that shopping season for Christmas starts earlier every year? It's already pushed into Thanksgiving, and soon it will take it over.
Christmas sell out officially starts already at September 1st, here where I live. Easter stuff comes in the first days of January. :///

Also, I think nowadays, we don't need Christmas any more. Sure, it's nice to meet your family and have a nice time and all, but why exactly at Christmas? I can do that over the whole year, at birthdays, other holidays or whatever. Big BBQ in summer, outside, when it's *not* necessarily cold.

Darth Kalverys
05-02-2007, 07:08 AM
Only Christans can celebrate it, which is a shame, due to the fact that Christmas is a good hoilday? And what if Christanty dies? What if a brand new religion comes to the forefront, or we all become atheists? Will Christmas be forgotten?

That's not entirely true... me being a christan does not well... I can't use myself as an example, however... I know a few people... but I don't rememeber their religion, but it's not Christanity and they celebrate Christmas... like full out.

And christians will probably not die out... because down here in the Southern United States, Christanity is the major religion. Regardless of wether it's non-denomination, like me, or Catholic like a friend of mine, or even Baptist.

Christmas I'm almost positive will not be forgotten.

Uhhhh... not so sure about "Messiah" day. Christmas, imo, has always and will be a CHRIST filled day. The day CHRIST was born in Bethleham(SP?).

Yes, I've noticed the shopping season has gotten earlier and earlier. Used to be Christmas stuff was not displayed until the day after Thanksgiving. Period. Now it shows up 30 seconds after Halloween ends, and sometimes even earlier than that. I don't like Thanksgiving taken over either--that's supposed to be a time to spend with family and to relax. In a very hectic season, it's important to have that down-time to relax and think about what to be be thankful for what we have rather than what gifts we're all going to get in a few weeks.

Ms. Jae... they do that so you don't have to rush to buy presents at the last minute... although that doesn't stop my parents from waiting till the last minute...

Nancy Allen``
05-02-2007, 08:31 AM
No I think it's a good topic to bring up especially with it recieving less fanfare and the religious\cultural diffirences that have really become the forefront over the past few years. Let's talk about it a little.

I watch South Park. Say what you will about the show, I'd probably agree with you, but I'm trying to make a point here. One of the episodes was on Christmas and because someone was Jewish they had to revise Christmas, remove everything about it that was offensive to anyone. Nativity scenes, baby Jesus, it all had to go. I'm convinced we are heading for the real thing, where people scream blue murder over Christmas, Hannakah, ect. Really if people wish to celebrate important religious dates why shouldn't they? The only reason I can think of is that groups, I don't want to demonise any particular group but people have taken it on themselves to be moral police and say 'Christmas is against my beliefs, it's offensive to my beliefs' and I would say partially because of the sensitivities we try and show to other cultures and the turbulant times with other cultures (going over to Arab countries and bombing them for example) where their complaints might have been met with the opinion to just wear it before now people are listening and acting on what's said.

Jae Onasi
05-02-2007, 09:18 AM
Ms. Jae... they do that so you don't have to rush to buy presents at the last minute... although that doesn't stop my parents from waiting till the last minute...

Actually, they do it so they can make more money by selling more stuff. :)

Four weeks is plenty enough time to go shopping for Christmas day. I buy some Christmas gifts year round as I come across something I think a family member would like.

Ray Jones
05-02-2007, 09:44 AM
I buy some Christmas gifts year round as I come across something I think a family member would like.
Like this? *quickly shows a papyrus roll that says "Reconnoitring Plan Quebec" on it*

SilentScope001
05-02-2007, 11:33 AM
And christians will probably not die out... because down here in the Southern United States, Christanity is the major religion. Regardless of wether it's non-denomination, like me, or Catholic like a friend of mine, or even Baptist.

Prehaps looking at long-term trends. I understand that some people celebrate Christmas without being Chrisitan, but other people are worried about celebrating Christmas due to its Chrisitan connotations.

Uhhhh... not so sure about "Messiah" day. Christmas, imo, has always and will be a CHRIST filled day. The day CHRIST was born in Bethleham(SP?).

Well, Christ is greek for Messiah. The only thing I was thinking of is just transalating it so that the Messiah term would be generic, but its roots would still be dealing with the "original" Messiah, Jesus of Nazertah.

Really if people wish to celebrate important religious dates why shouldn't they?

One problem is that Christmas, I think, is somewhat considered a secular holiday, and that this important religious date is...well, only important in a religious sense. By changing it to be a secular Messiah, that might be nice. But I just want to know how popular it would be. Lukewarm support at the best doesn't bode well, especially if there is an active opposition against...

The only reason I can think of is that groups, I don't want to demonise any particular group but people have taken it on themselves to be moral police and say 'Christmas is against my beliefs, it's offensive to my beliefs' and I would say partially because of the sensitivities we try and show to other cultures and the turbulant times with other cultures (going over to Arab countries and bombing them for example) where their complaints might have been met with the opinion to just wear it before now people are listening and acting on what's said.

Never saw it that way. Thanks.

GarfieldJL
05-02-2007, 11:37 AM
The thing is there is actually a war on christmas, and yes it can be documented. I'm a little scatterbrained right now having just had a final to go searching for the book on the subject, however a lot of the "Political Correctness" crud actually discriminates against Christianity.

JediMaster12
05-02-2007, 01:24 PM
But Christmas has been termed a "Christan" hoilday. And I feel that is the reason why there is a war on Christmas to begin with, due to the fact that there are other religions other than Christanity. Only Christans can celebrate it, which is a shame, due to the fact that Christmas is a good hoilday? And what if Christanty dies? What if a brand new religion comes to the forefront, or we all become atheists? Will Christmas be forgotten?
Maybe it would help those who are pagans, near pagans to know that Christmas is not originally a Christian holiday. Christmas became named so because of the political maneuver by Constatine. The guy was a pagan until the day he died but when he ruled, he knew that Christianity was on the rise and he decided to make the transition easier on people.

Christmas came to be because it coincided with a pagan holiday about I believe the Holly King or something like that. It had to do with death in winter but it will come again or something like that. Easter worked in the same way that it was when new beginnings came about. Sorruy if I sound muddled but it's been awhile since I played with my witch books. Anyway, Christmas and many other things associated with Christianity like Sunday and the halos and all that junk have their origins in paganism.


But, Christmas is a good hoilday. I like Christmas, and its message of a Heroic Messiah coming in to save the Human Race. The idea of hope, and that everything will go better...is an idea that should get its own national hoilday.
Unfortunately more and more people see the commercial side of Christmas. Yeha I know all about the stories of the true meaning of Christmas but that does hold true. You know "Faithful friends who are dear to us gather near to us once more."


Therefore, my idea is to rename Christmas into "Messiah Day", by transalting Christmas (Christ, after all, is Greek for Messiah). On this day, each person will think about the glories of the Messiah. But who is the Messiah that will be honored? Each person gets to decide that for himself.
While you're at it, why not have a day where we honor all the supposed Antichrists. :D


Christians honor their 'true' Messiah, Jesus Christ, while other faiths honor their own personal Messiahs or a Messiah yet to come.
Actually the Jews think of the Messiah as a soldier who would free them from their Roman opressors. That was at the time of the Romans in Biblical times.


I really hope this does not offend religious folk in any way. I really don't want to make their traditions look like a mockery. I really want to save Christmas. But, er, maybe it might make a mockery.
No offense taken at all. As I have mentioned somewhere before, I am born and raised a Catholic but not a practicing one. I don't consider myself Catholic but rather a Christian but even then I am not a fundamentalists or a radical. I just get a kick and a hint of annoyance when people speak of CHristianity and Catholicism as two separate rntities when in fact they are of the same origin.

Achilles
05-16-2007, 01:32 PM
Uhhhh... not so sure about "Messiah" day. Christmas, imo, has always and will be a CHRIST filled day. The day CHRIST was born in Bethleham(SP?). Except for when it's not.:)
I would recommend a little more research on this. Textual analysis of the bible put jesus' actual date of birth sometime in Spring (sheppards would not be out tending to their flock in the pastures in the dead of Winter). The fact is that most religions have a major holiday on or near the equinoxes/solstices. That Christianity followed suit is no surprise.

Here's (http://www.religioustolerance.org/xmas_sel.htm) a link to get you started if you want to learn more.

If anyone needs to be "taking back" christmas, it's the pagans :D

tk102
05-16-2007, 01:59 PM
If anyone needs to be "taking back" christmas, it's the pagans :D:rofl:
http://eschenck.typepad.com/ernie_schenck_calls_this_/images/grinch.jpg

ChAiNz.2da
05-16-2007, 02:03 PM
IYes, I've noticed the shopping season has gotten earlier and earlier. Used to be Christmas stuff was not displayed until the day after Thanksgiving. Period. Now it shows up 30 seconds after Halloween ends, and sometimes even earlier than that. I don't like Thanksgiving taken over either--that's supposed to be a time to spend with family and to relax. In a very hectic season, it's important to have that down-time to relax and think about what to be be thankful for what we have rather than what gifts we're all going to get in a few weeks.
2 more weeks for me... be glad you're not in advertising or editing commercials. :headbump:

We start "Christmas" with Christmas in July specials.. however, because of productions costs, convenience, and the re-working it takes to produce/edit/re-edit content for on-air over an extended period of time takes forever (6 months apparently :xp: ), we start shooting stuff for our Christmas promos and such while we shoot in July...

It doesn't stop for for me until January of next year.. :cry6:

Totenkopf
05-16-2007, 02:42 PM
Shame you don't get presents throughout, it would be better than Hannaka. :p

Achilles
05-16-2007, 02:58 PM
LOL @ teekay's post

Hey, if it means a little less Bing Crosby every year, then I'm all for it. :)

Allronix
05-17-2007, 04:54 AM
Um...say what?

Mind you, when someone tries the "Jesus is the Reason for the Season" line on me, it's reason to laugh a little. After all, around the same time of year, Jews celebrate when they were able to keep their temple's fire burning for 8 days longer than they expected after driving off invaders. Hindus have Chhath, thanking the Sun God for the bounty of life on Earth. Pagans have their Solstice festivals, many of which center around welcoming the Sun back to warm the Earth, returning life and warmth to the days. Overall, the message is "things are going to get brighter, the worst is over, let's party."

Many of the things associated with Christmas had Pagan origins - most folks know that.. The tree, for example, was from the Norse. They believed the world was a giant tree. Druids can be thanked for mistletoe - it was a potent fertility charm. Romans are the ones who swapped gifts during Saturnalia ("Feast of the Unconquered Sun"). Romans also brought evergreens like holly and ivy into their homes during the winter for prosperity and luck.

BTW, the Socialists already have a good holiday - May 1, or International Labor Day. It also happens to be Beltane, a Wiccan celebration of summer and the ceremonial "wedding day" of Lord and Lady. So, a "Red and Green" like me has to decide whether to raise hell like Mother Jones or celebrate like Mother Goddess.

Jae Onasi
05-17-2007, 07:52 AM
Like this? *quickly shows a papyrus roll that says "Reconnoitring Plan Quebec" on it*

Darn--that means I have to take Plan X-Ray back to the store now.


Mind you, when someone tries the "Jesus is the Reason for the Season"
I never considered that an evangelical tool and think it's kind of weird to be used that way, to be honest. I viewed it as a reminder to Christians that the season isn't supposed to be about the mad dash for the latest-greatest gifts and who gets what and how much, it's supposed to be a celebration of the birth of Christ and the development of His message of love. We've lost the emphasis on being with friends and family to enjoy the season in favor of Buying Lots of Stuff.

:rofl:
http://eschenck.typepad.com/ernie_schenck_calls_this_/images/grinch.jpg

Heh, that reminds me of an agnostic friend of mine. She and I were at a camping event and we were sitting with other friends around the campfire. She was railing over Bette Midler using God in the song "From a Distance". "Bette should be using 'a higher power!' "
Well, we all burst into song, "A Higher Power is watching us! A Higher Power is watching us...."

Pho3nix
05-17-2007, 08:58 AM
I think we had a similar discussion about Christmas last year.

It has become so commercialized that I've never even thought of it as a Christian holiday.

As for renaming it "Messiah Day" I think It's a bad idea.

SilentScope001
05-18-2007, 05:28 PM
As for renaming it "Messiah Day" I think It's a bad idea.

Care to say why? I just need to know all arguments against this propsal so that I can prepare for them, maybe get convinced by them, if I am not already.

Darth Kalverys
05-18-2007, 09:25 PM
Well like I said... it was made for CHRIST... you know... the tiny baby in the manger... the one who was the one who turned it from BC to AD... yeah. And the reason Christians celebrate Christmas... is marking his birthday... because he is still alive, but since we can't give gifts to him... because he is with his father... we give them to "our" kids.

((I used quotations around our... because I don't have any kids... especially since I'm 15...))

Achilles
05-19-2007, 12:04 AM
Actually, that's incorrect, just as I pointed out before. Since we have no historical evidence for jesus (http://lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=177505), we can only divine the characters birthday by the clues given to us in the bible. These clues point to Spring rather than Winter, however since there are multiple story tellers, trying to determine a specific date is like trying to nail jello to a tree.

"Christmas" was "made" for christ, but that act was nothing more than borrowing an existing holiday, changing the name and making marginal adjustments to some of the traditions.

Think of it like this. Someone moves into your house and starts eating your stuff, sleeping in your bed, and wearing your clothes. A couple days later this guy starts telling everyone that it's his house/bed/clothes. Later a third person shows up and follows suit, but the second guy goes ballistic because someone is encroaching on "his" property. This is what christians have done with "christmas". Perhaps it would be best to apologize for bastardizing Yule, et al before climbing onto a high horse to complain about other ruining "your" holiday.

Thanks for reading.

Totenkopf
05-19-2007, 02:23 AM
I buy some Christmas gifts year round as I come across something I think a family member would like.


Spoken like a true mom.

SilentScope001
05-19-2007, 02:45 AM
Er...Achilles, attacking your opponent usually is not the way to convince them.

Well like I said... it was made for CHRIST... you know... the tiny baby in the manger... the one who was the one who turned it from BC to AD... yeah. And the reason Christians celebrate Christmas... is marking his birthday... because he is still alive, but since we can't give gifts to him... because he is with his father... we give them to "our" kids.

I can understand that, and Christians could still call Messiah Day "Christmas" if they so desire. But I am worried of the possiblity of non-Christians celeberating Christmas. Either they don't, because of the Christian connations, or they do, but regard it as secular and forget the whole meaning of Christmas that you assign to it, including the most important part of the rise of the Messiah, meaning that the meaning of Christmas, including that of hope, is lost forever.

I just think the state should put in an offical name of Messiah Day (while allowing people to still refer to it by the name of Christmas), to allow for non-Christians to celebrate Christmas/Messiah Day as well, in order to save Christmas in case of exicition of the Chrisitan faith, and to allow for more people to celebrate. The origins of Messiah Day, in that of the belief of Jesus being born on that day, is still there, and you can still celebrate Christmas as normal, but for non-Christians, they will be able to celerbate Messiah Day as well.