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View Full Version : These are the Kinds of People the US is fighting around the world


GarfieldJL
05-07-2007, 07:57 PM
Hamas Mickey Mouse (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,270457,00.html)

There is also a video that accompanies it, these people try to train children to be suicide bombers to want to kill nonmuslims.

SilentScope001
05-07-2007, 08:22 PM
Listen, many people AGREE with you that terrorism is bad.

But they disagree with how to fight it.

That's it. Disagreement. That is not cause for concern. Especially since I'm more worried of the threat of China and Russia.

If we all agree on the same things, well, we wouldn't be a democracy. In fact, we wouldn't even be free. We would, in essence, well...we would be a dictatorship, run by one belief. I rather would have this political debate between the two sides, rather than to scuumb to a dictatorship.

GarfieldJL
05-07-2007, 08:29 PM
True, however we can't run a war by committee, nor can it be ran by popular opinion.

The terrorists pay attention to our media, and they gain confidence from our media.

SilentScope001
05-07-2007, 08:42 PM
True, however we can't run a war by committee, nor can it be ran by popular opinion.

Actually, maybe it should. No, we won't randomly pick [So-and-So] to be Supreme General of the American Army, but we do need to look over and have the Military's accomplishments be judged by the people who are in control, that is, the President, the Senate, and lastly popular opinon that elect the President and the Senate.

If we have nobody to judge how succesful we are in any military campagin, if we disenfrancise the people in power, us, to make the final desicion, that is a step I do not wish to take. The american people have little power already, and to lose more of it sort of takes away the point of it being a democracy.

With that statement, I can understand why the President won't look at poll numbers, it makes sense really. But, come Janurary 20th, 2008, if the Democrats win, well, they are the ones in control, and it is up to them to decide.

The terrorists pay attention to our media, and they gain confidence from our media.

Well, they gain confidence from anything, really. If you do not believe in the aims of the terrorists, and I assume you do not, then they can easily motivate themselves by picking up a Holy Book that you personally disagree with and randomly choosing a verse to read, interperting it to mean whatever they want. Or they can just look at that Youtube video and be happy. Or look at other Youtube videos made by other insurgents depicting victories that they won in the battlefield.

They only use properganda to sway themselves, but that is all they are swaying. From what I hear, they are, for the most part, just preaching to the converted. In some cases, that is useful, to make them ready to risk their lives for their cause. But they can do that already, meaning that we shouldn't limit our own ability to criticize.

Still, censorship does have its value, at least in making the American people happy and allowing for US troops to stay there. I do object to it because it prevents the people, who are supposed to be rulers of America, from deciding what to do. But I can see its appeal.

GarfieldJL
05-07-2007, 08:45 PM
There was censorship during World War II, it was to prevent the enemy from gaining information concerning our forces, that's what I'm saying the media is doing. Troop morale isn't like it was in Vietnam, it's a lot higher and many of our troops think we can win. I imagine our troops know more than we do concerning the situation and based on how lopsided the reporting is.

Jae Onasi
05-07-2007, 11:40 PM
Anyone showing videos like that to kids in the US would likely find themselves in trouble with Child Protective Services and the cops for child abuse.

GarfieldJL
05-08-2007, 10:57 AM
Anyone showing videos like that to kids in the US would likely find themselves in trouble with Child Protective Services and the cops for child abuse.

Yeah well this is what Hamas is airing for children in Palestian territories to watch.

Prime
05-08-2007, 11:37 AM
I wouldn't say I am particularly surprised by this...

SilentScope001
05-08-2007, 05:24 PM
Eh. I finally got the time to watch that video and it looked...strange.

That Mickey Mouse look so like a copycat, and it was so strange that, well...er...

You know what? If Hamas continue to do sort of properganda, the Americans will win the War on Terror. I'm serious. This television program stunk, badly. Quite badly. I'm sure Palestinan kids are rolling their eyes over this.

These are kids for crying out loud! You want them to study, get more powerful, rise in the ranks of Palestine, raise the economy of Palestine, raise more money for the goal of resistance against the "Zionist occupiers"? Sure, glorify the throwing of stones, I'm fine with that. Glorify Resistance. But, please, make it less blantant, and teach them other more important skills.

Do note, kids already believe a lot of stuff about Palestine, similar to the views of Hamas and Fatah, in that Palestine needs to be free, occupation is bad, yadda, yadda yadda. So all this video does is preach to the converted. But still, it's bad.

Luckily, I'm glad that many of this stuff is just taken out of context. Hopefully,
"Mickey Mouse" will stop talking about resistance from the Israeli occupiers to start teaching kids more important life-skills, like the ABC's. Maybe some good jokes as well. Have to be more entertaining than...this. Plus, a kid can set up a satillate dish, watch Cartoon Network, laugh, and still, in their spare time, learn about Palestine's struggle. If Hamas TV wants to remain more competitive, it has to branch out.

I'm sorry for this sentiment, but really, I want better opinon pieces and work of art, no matter where they come from. All properganda directed to kids must be, in the end, entertaining and fun.

GarfieldJL
05-08-2007, 05:28 PM
I don't think Hamas cares about the kids other than as human bombs.

SilentScope001
05-08-2007, 05:34 PM
I don't think Hamas cares about the kids other than as human bombs.

Sure they do. Who else leads Hamas?

Adults who grown up from kids. :)

Plus, kids are their future. They are the ones who will inherit Palestine, and bring it to prosperity.

In an article in Newsweek maganize, before the Hamas' election to the government, they talked about how Hamas does not recruit willy-nilly. In fact, they only recruit people they feel are very loyal to their cause, and being a member of Hamas is a honor. So, no, they don't kidnap childern and send them off as childern soilders. They first see that they believe in their cause, and then they get recruited. (That's a bit more moral than the armies in say, Africa, where warlords just kidnap childern, and then indoctrine them.)

Jae Onasi
05-08-2007, 06:55 PM
In fact, they only recruit people they feel are very loyal to their cause, and being a member of Hamas is a honor. So, no, they don't kidnap childern and send them off as childern soilders. They first see that they believe in their cause, and then they get recruited. (That's a bit more moral than the armies in say, Africa, where warlords just kidnap childern, and then indoctrine them.)

Oh, well, now that makes everything hunky-dorey. ;)

SilentScope001
05-08-2007, 07:01 PM
Oh, well, now that makes everything hunky-dorey. ;)

I'm just looking at the bright side. :p

Dagobahn Eagle
05-08-2007, 07:16 PM
True, however we can't run a war by committee, nor can it be ran by popular opinion.You and I both live in democratic countries. They have to be run by popular opinion. Anything else is authoritarian and supposed to be the very thing the War on Terror is against.

If there was no dissent, war crimes on both sides would be far more widespread, and we'd still be buying the WMD story.

The terrorists pay attention to our media, and they gain confidence from our media.If I was at war with the USA, the blatant support of human rights violation and breach of various international laws would be a great source of confidence I was doing the right thing, yes.

There was censorship during World War II, it was to prevent the enemy from gaining information concerning our forces, that's what I'm saying the media is doing.The media does not necessarily need to show where troops are positioned.

Anyone showing videos like that to kids in the US would likely find themselves in trouble with Child Protective Services and the cops for child abuse.Breaking news. The Middle Eastern front of the War on Terror was won just ten minutes ago when angry CPS and Disney's agents arrested all terrorists in the Middle East on charges of child abuse and copyright infringement. Sylvia, you've got tomorrow's weather...

You know what? If Hamas continue to do sort of properganda, the Americans will win the War on Terror. I'm serious. This television program stunk, badly. Quite badly. I'm sure Palestinan kids are rolling their eyes over this.Dexter's Laboratory is quite horrific, too, yet kids love it for some reason.

I've also read (in a Norse news article) that Palestinian children are ecstatic about this programme. The program also allows viewers to call and sing along to anti-Israeli songs.

I don't think Hamas cares about the kids other than as human bombs.It seems sometimes that the HAMAS party probably doesn't care much about anything save from eliminating Israel.

GarfieldJL
05-08-2007, 08:15 PM
Actually the United States Constitution clearly states that it is the President whom is the commander and chief not a mob.

SilentScope001
05-09-2007, 11:12 AM
I've also read (in a Norse news article) that Palestinian children are ecstatic about this programme. The program also allows viewers to call and sing along to anti-Israeli songs.

Eh. As long as it is succesful, that all that counts. Still is a bit boring though. Maybe I'm just old.


It seems sometimes that the HAMAS party probably doesn't care much about anything save from eliminating Israel.

Well, they do actually care about building up a future Palestian state to replace Israel (resistance is always on the forefront though). Hamas has a lot of charity networks within Gaza and West Bank, and run schools and hospitals as well. Kinda the reason why they are so popular within Palestine to begin with. They are a "state-within-state", and they are quite effective in winning hearts and minds.

Actually the United States Constitution clearly states that it is the President whom is the commander and chief not a mob.

Yeah, but who chooses the President?

The Electroal Collage.

Who chooses the Electoral College? Why, the mob. :)

JediMaster12
05-09-2007, 12:36 PM
These are kids for crying out loud! You want them to study, get more powerful, rise in the ranks of Palestine, raise the economy of Palestine, raise more money for the goal of resistance against the "Zionist occupiers"? Sure, glorify the throwing of stones, I'm fine with that. Glorify Resistance. But, please, make it less blantant, and teach them other more important skills.
Oh but the imams tell them that if they do this act for Allah, they will be glorified by going to heaven and getting their 79 virgins or whatever the number is these days. The social organization is one where it is the imams who teach the Koran and the hadiths to the children and teaches them how to be good Muslims. Part of it is also driven by the hate they have for the Israelies but there is guilt on both sides. I got to view what it is like trying to get in and out of the Gaza Strip.

I am well aware that it is not the old bearded men who teach the Koran that are going out and doing the suicide bombings and the terrorist acts but young children and young men and women. Believe me I think there is something wrong with this picture but what do you do when you are taught at a young age to listen to your elders and obey them? Yeah we are all taught that but look at the social arrangement of a Muslim family, especially the conservatives. It is quite different.

Well, they do actually care about building up a future Palestian state to replace Israel (resistance is always on the forefront though). Hamas has a lot of charity networks within Gaza and West Bank, and run schools and hospitals as well. Kinda the reason why they are so popular within Palestine to begin with. They are a "state-within-state", and they are quite effective in winning hearts and minds.
What better way to get future militants to fight for your cause?

SilentScope001
05-09-2007, 09:29 PM
Oh but the imams tell them that if they do this act for Allah, they will be glorified by going to heaven and getting their 79 virgins or whatever the number is these days.

Don't forget and neglect the Nationalist aspect however. It is nationalism which is one of the major causes of wars, after all.

These people are angry at Israel, because, according to them, Israel invaded and took over all of the territory of Palestine. They just want to take it back, by destroying Israel. When the PLO first formed, it was a secular terrorist group, calling for the destruction of Israel in order to create a new Palestine state. PLO, and the Fatah party, grew quite powerful and mighty. Hamas has a religious bent, true, but they also, at one point, shared the same goals, creation of the Palestine state. They merely disagreed on wheter the state would be secular or religouslly based. However, when the PLO decided to drop its demands for the destruction of Israel, Hamas and PLO had a falling out.

The point being: the PLO grew mighty and powerful, without any calls for matrydom or vrigins or whatever. They grew because they wanted to create a brand new Palestiain state.

So, religion plays a role, but it is not the sole, defining focus in this conflict.

I am well aware that it is not the old bearded men who teach the Koran that are going out and doing the suicide bombings and the terrorist acts but young children and young men and women. Believe me I think there is something wrong with this picture but what do you do when you are taught at a young age to listen to your elders and obey them? Yeah we are all taught that but look at the social arrangement of a Muslim family, especially the conservatives. It is quite different.

Even then, old bearded men can get matryed too. Israel would target terrorist leaders, who are old bearded men, and these men are glad for being murdered by Israel.

I also do think that people are giving far too much focus on sucidie bombings and, not, say on rocket attacks. You can launch rockets over and over, and the person launching the rockets does not die.

What better way to get future militants to fight for your cause?

It is mainly to get people to like Hamas, which is always a good thing. Getting future militants to fight for their cause is also a main point, but I do think they are also thinking of laying groundworks for a future Palestine state as well. Hey, after Israel eventually collaspe, you need to start looking ahead, no? Even then, the life in the Gaza Strip is bad, and you need to make it at least bareable. Prehaps according to some radicals, they could think "All the Zionists want to do is make the Palestinan people break, so let us not break. Let us grow our economy, let us raise money, and let us be rich, so that we show the Zionists that Palestine has a future!"

Besides, while cannon fooder is nice, so is cold-hard cash needed to pull off the deeds, or to fund a war. That's where an economy comes in.

Plus, since that "resistance" term is so...vague, well, you can use it to justify anything. "Resist against the Zionist occupation! Go to school and study to be a professor!"

Dagobahn Eagle
05-09-2007, 09:46 PM
Actually the United States Constitution clearly states that it is the President whom is the commander and chief not a mob.I know that. And yet, if you let el Prez do whatever he wants, he'll very quickly abuse that power. The 'we must trust our President to know what's best' attitude is incredibly dangerous as it allows the administration to pretty much do whatever it wants, without intervention from You the People. Which is not good at all.

Mike Windu
05-09-2007, 11:48 PM
Dago, I've finally found the flaw in all your logic!

Dexter's Laboratory is quite horrific, too, yet kids love it for some reason.

!

Dexter's Lab was a great show. Don't hate.

In all serious, this isn't surprising. Somewhat sad yes, but not surprising. At any rate, remove bush war crimes geneva terrorism support troops not war guantanamo china north korea. That'll be the sum of this thread. :p

edit - oh and, by the way. That opening article is from Fox News. A well known Conservative source. Not saying that that detracts from the Mickey Mouse lookalike. But those people are rather pointed in their opinions. :p

Windu Chi
05-10-2007, 04:20 AM
Actually the United States Constitution clearly states that it is the President whom is the commander and chief not a mob.
Well, the commander in chief is a idiot, does it says anything
about handling idiots who somehow gotten themselves in power ?

The terrorists pay attention to our media, and they gain confidence from our media.

Yeah, whatever ! :lol:

If the terrorists want to wipe us out, they will wipe us out, they don't need confidence from the our media to do that.

I don't think Hamas cares about the kids other than as human bombs.

I think that is obvious now, they see all their citizens as weapons to kill Jews.

Hamas must be liquidated !
But the UN is a no show, as usual.
Hamas regime are like roaches, they don't die easily. :disaprove

JediMaster12
05-11-2007, 12:36 PM
If the terrorists want to wipe us out, they will wipe us out, they don't need confidence from the our media to do that.
They would if they can twist it to show that the Americans are attacking the character of their people. Like anything else it can be twisted to their own means. That is the beauty of propaganda.

Hamas must be liquidated !
But the UN is a no show, as usual.
Hamas regime are like roaches, they don't die easily.
So your solution is to solve violence with more violence? I understand that the terrorist groups don't recognize our idea of conforming to the rules of war as exampled from Geneva. Still to kill to end something is not always the best way to go.

Windu Chi
05-11-2007, 03:04 PM
They would if they can twist it to show that the Americans are attacking the character of their people. Like anything else it can be twisted to their own means. That is the beauty of propaganda.
You, know JediMaster12 we use propaganda too. :)

So your solution is to solve violence with more violence? I understand that the terrorist groups don't recognize our idea of conforming to the rules of war as exampled from Geneva. Still to kill to end something is not always the best way to go.

Tell me something then, how do suppose we reason with Hamas?
All they want to do is kill as many Jews as possible, how do you combat hate like that?
Their idea of a solution is to wipe Israel out.
I can't stand people with that kind of hate, that hate the Nazis had and I really hate the Nazis and other people who have commited genocide over the years because of that much hate.
The evil they commited was unacceptable, that is the same evil Hamas want to commit on the Jews.
So, if they don't want a peaceful resolution only a genocide, then that organization must be wipe out, they are to dangerous to be left alive.

mur'phon
05-14-2007, 06:36 AM
Tell me something then, how do suppose we reason with Hamas?

By talking to them?

All they want to do is kill as many Jews as possible

what they want is to destroy Israel, which isn't the same as killing as many jews as possible

Their idea of a solution is to wipe Israel out

Wich is so much worse than ocupying most of a country, and wall in the rest

So, if they don't want a peaceful resolution only a genocide, then that organization must be wipe out, they are to dangerous to be left alive.

By your reasoning, we must kill the Israeli government, they are to dangerous to be left alive

Windu Chi
05-14-2007, 09:47 AM
By talking to them?
You are naive if you believe they want to talk, they don't want to talk they want to kill.
What news you have been watching? :)


what they want is to destroy Israel, which isn't the same as killing as many jews as possible
You are sadly mistaken !
They want to murder every Jew on this PLANET.



Wich is so much worse than ocupying most of a country, and wall in the rest
I'm not sure about your feelings toward Israel, but get this straight, Israel is not going no where, Hamas won't get that satisfaction.
They will have do deal with it.
But as I was saying, Hamas want to kill Jews every where on Earth.
I don't know where you get the idea, that they only want to destroy Israel.
Their hate for Jews is very apparent, mur'phon. :)
You need to do some more research.



By your reasoning, we must kill the Israeli government, they are to dangerous to be left alive
What the hell are you talking about, I'm talking about wiping Hamas out.
I'm starting to see a pattern here, you must really hate Israel.
And if you hate Israel then it's a good bet you probably hate Jews too.
The Israelis are Jews, you know that don't you?
I'm not arguing or trying to start a flame war with you, I'm just trying to figure where you are coming from with that, "we must kill the Israeli government" statement.
A lot of people hate Jews in this world, so you should realize that I'm suspecting you probably hate them too.

JediMaster12
05-14-2007, 01:16 PM
They want to murder every Jew on this PLANET.
And the Islamic extremists think we too should be destroyed since democracy is considered the devil's own invention.

I'm starting to see a pattern here, you must really hate Israel.
And if you hate Israel then it's a good bet you probably hate Jews too.
No he is reading your statements and based upon the flow of your argument, he made an assumption. Now with the second statement you are assuming he dislikes Israel. Reading his post, I got no such vibe from that. Perhaps that because your argument is full of passion, it obscures the words he was saying.

The Israelis are Jews, you know that don't you?
I beg to differ. Israel has a large population of Jews but not all of them are Jews. About 2% are Christians or so. Israel is a nationality, Jew is a religious conotation. One political and one religious. Believe me there is a big difference.

I'm not arguing or trying to start a flame war with you, I'm just trying to figure where you are coming from with that, "we must kill the Israeli government" statement.
If you read the entire statement, he was saying by YOUR reasoning, meaning he was referring to your previous statements.

You, know JediMaster12 we use propaganda too.
Of course we do. After all we have to convince the American people that our way is the only way to go. Never mind the fact that we come from different cultures :xp:

So, if they don't want a peaceful resolution only a genocide, then that organization must be wipe out, they are to dangerous to be left alive.
And by doing that, we create martyrs which will keep the cycle going. Execution of criminals like Saddaam while justifiable make room for the fact that anyone can use his death as an excuse to further wage terrorist acts or war on groups they dislike. People have done terrible things yes but we can't ignore the fact that actions do speak louder than words. If we went with a plan like yours, we would end up infuriating Islamic populations and even our allies if we look at the humanitarian side of things. With murder, there is no good way to look at it. Murder is murder even with the best intentions.

Windu Chi
05-14-2007, 04:46 PM
And the Islamic extremists think we too should be destroyed since democracy is considered the devil's own invention. Yes I know!
Also where that come from, that democracy is the devil's own invention?
The devil according to the Christian religion is evil, and want to rule souls, I highly doubt he will want a democracy in hell. :lol:


No he is reading your statements and based upon the flow of your argument, he made an assumption. Now with the second statement you are assuming he dislikes Israel. Reading his post, I got no such vibe from that. Perhaps that because your argument is full of passion, it obscures the words he was saying.
Well, I said I was not sure, but people who talk about destroying the Israel seem to show a hidden hate toward Jews. :)

I beg to differ. Israel has a large population of Jews but not all of them are Jews. About 2% are Christians or so. Israel is a nationality, Jew is a religious conotation. One political and one religious. Believe me there is a big difference.
What is 2%?
And I'm not talking about no religion here.
The majority of Israelis are Jews.


If you read the entire statement, he was saying by YOUR reasoning, meaning he was referring to your previous statements.
So, talk to Hamas, I think that was already tried.
They don't want to recognize Israel's existence, like I said before the Israelis aren't going to just give up there country, that is nonsense.
So, because they don't want to give up their country, Hamas want to wipe every Jew out in Israel.
Until they abandon their country.

And if you don't believe that then I can't explain it more clearly then that. :)


Of course we do. After all we have to convince the American people that our way is the only way to go. Never mind the fact that we come from different cultures :xp:
Yes many of our ancestors come from across the world.
Yes our way the best and other ways aren't is a very tiring statement, I have said our government should stop saying we are superior to every other human culture on this planet.


And by doing that, we create martyrs which will keep the cycle going.
The cycle is already ongoing, Hamas are terrorist who die for nothing as
martyrs.

Execution of criminals like Saddaam while justifiable make room for the fact that anyone can use his death as an excuse to further wage terrorist acts or war on groups they dislike.
Hmm, by your reasoning we should have kept Hitler alive, if he had been caught alive.
To prevent the rise of neo-Nazis.



People have done terrible things yes but we can't ignore the fact that actions do speak louder than words. If we went with a plan like yours, we would end up infuriating Islamic populations and even our allies if we look at the humanitarian side of things. With murder, there is no good way to look at it. Murder is murder even with the best intentions.
Look, if people who want to commit genocide, they must be wipe out completely, I don't know about you but I was very enrage for what happen in the Holocaust, so you should understand where I'm coming from.

I'm a African American and some would say why do I care about what happen to the Jews in WW II, but the Holocaust
was unacceptable evil and I just can't stand for genocide of any kind.

So, if don't get where I'm coming from then too bad.

JediMaster12
05-14-2007, 08:43 PM
I'm a African American and some would say why do I care about what happen to the Jews in WW II, but the Holocaust was unacceptable evil and I just can't stand for genocide of any kind.
And why is the Holocaust so quick upon your mind? Did you know that there was an Armenian genocide during WWI? Did you know that there was a genocide during Somalia in 1992? Yes the Holocaust is important to remember because we as intelligent beings try to do things right the second time around.

Hmm, by your reasoning we should have kept Hitler alive, if he had been caught alive. To prevent the rise of neo-Nazis.
By what I was saying that people who did and do have a profound influence on the rest of the world if they were to die, their death would be the hook anyone needs to further their own aims. Who really cares if a gang member kills another? That's not going to spark a world movement against a group. It may be an enrangement and retaliation cycle on a local level but going globaly, I don't think so. People who are notable figures in the global community have that affect.

Also where that come from, that democracy is the devil's own invention?
The devil according to the Christian religion is evil, and want to rule souls, I highly doubt he will want a democracy in hell.
If you get a chance, read the Koran. Also it based upon the interpretations the imams give to the youths. On that note, within the Koran, Jesus is mentioned 186 times and always referred to as a prophet. However there is one passage that I remember if not word for word. It states somewhere along the line that Islam should be taught to the heathens and those who resist should be destroyed. I may have it wrong but that is the basic gist of it.

They don't want to recognize Israel's existence, like I said before the Israelis aren't going to just give up there country, that is nonsense.
So, because they don't want to give up their country, Hamas want to wipe every Jew out in Israel.
Until they abandon their country.
Blaming the Jews has been going on since Biblical times. As much as I am loath to beat this horse some more, the Germans blamed the Jews for their problems before WWII because they were in a deep depression brought on by the fact that France and Britain wanted Germany to bleed in raparations. The people controlling the money as bankers were none otherthan the Jews.

What is 2%?
And I'm not talking about no religion here.
The majority of Israelis are Jews.
On another note, Jewish people are a religious group by technicality. Ethnicity refers to culture which are the shared and learned behaviors learned through the socialization process. However Jews believe that they are the chosen people of God, and for those who know their Bible, I won't explain anymore. Religion is a function within a culture but not a culture of itself. Whe we hear terms like Hasidic Jews, that is referring to sects or the degree of orthodoxy.

Windu Chi
05-14-2007, 10:24 PM
And why is the Holocaust so quick upon your mind? Did you know that there was an Armenian genocide during WWI?
Yes I have recently came aware of Armenian genocide.
Did you know that there was a genocide during Somalia in 1992?
I don't know about what you are talking about, but I have heard of Rwanda.
I'm not aware of no genocide in Somalia.

Yes the Holocaust is important to remember because we as intelligent beings try to do things right the second time around.
Yes, don't let evil have free reign a second time around.




By what I was saying that people who did and do have a profound influence on the rest of the world if they were to die, their death would be the hook anyone needs to further their own aims. Who really cares if a gang member kills another?

That's not going to spark a world movement against a group. It may be an enrangement and retaliation cycle on a local level but going globaly, I don't think so. People who are notable figures in the global community have that affect.
You right, no one cares if a gang member kills another.
You can't make everyone on this planet care for everybody.

If you get a chance, read the Koran. Also it based upon the interpretations the imams give to the youths. On that note, within the Koran, Jesus is mentioned 186 times and always referred to as a prophet. However there is one passage that I remember if not word for word. It states somewhere along the line that Islam should be taught to the heathens and those who resist should be destroyed. I may have it wrong but that is the basic gist of it.

I'm not very interested in reading religious text, JediMaster12, I see religion as being responsible for a lot of wars our society have rage over the 100s of years, that have delayed us from focusing on galactic exploration.



On another note, Jewish people are a religious group by technicality. Ethnicity refers to culture which are the shared and learned behaviors learned through the socialization process. However Jews believe that they are the chosen people of God, and for those who know their Bible, I won't explain anymore. Religion is a function within a culture but not a culture of itself. Whe we hear terms like Hasidic Jews, that is referring to sects or the degree of orthodoxy.
Yes, a lot of people believe they are the chosen people of God, you probably don't
know but I hate God so much.
So, when people refer to that thing, lose my control over my emotions. But I will try to be cool here, since people will think that I'm a bad person if I react in a negative way. ;)
Back to your comment.
Now, I'm tire of hearing people who always say they are the chosen ones, as the representatives of any supreme being.
People need to stop being God or any other God paper boy/girl and focus on
exploring the universe and really find out what is out there, before making assumptions on here say, I do believe in God but I don't believe the Christian God is the only one there is.
Become knowledgable of the universe, before assuming they are the chosen ones, by not truly knowing, they should try to find out where we actually come from and we can't find that answer by remaining here, still here waging human civil wars to take control over insignificant territory, when we have infinite territory out there in the universe awaiting us.
:)

It's about time our society put our petty differences aside and look toward the stars for inspiration.
The mystery, the adventure and the knowledge awaits us, if we stop focusing on ensuring the extinction of our species in this galaxy by these endless human civil wars, we continue to have on this planet.

But I have wasted my time writing all of that, no one but only a few of us is really interested in interstellar travel, right NOW damn the torpedoes of difficulty, in my opinion this should be our focus, not war.

But human civil wars continue to occur, JediMaster12. :disaprove

JediMaster12
05-14-2007, 11:40 PM
windu6: The genocide I refer to in Somalia is the 200,000+ dead from the starvation that Mohammed Fared Adid invoked upon his own people to keep control of his territory.
As to that religious outburst, I was not trying to argue that nonsense. I was pointing out the technicalities regarding the difference between the ethnic and religious boundaries within a culture is. I don't know what your problem is with God in general and I don't know why you think the Christian God and the Jewish one are different when they are one and the same but I wonder how it is you trudge through each day.

True that what the Hamas are showing is nothing more than propaganda to encourage the youth that becoming a suicide bomber is a good thing but there is only so much we can do. Like anything local, in a global perspective there are rules regarding certain things. As to why it is allowed to be shown on TV, that could be because the makers paid for it and the studio does have the descretion to show it. Call me the coward but I still believe that there is always room for one more round of diplomacy.

Windu Chi
05-15-2007, 12:17 AM
windu6: The genocide I refer to in Somalia is the 200,000+ dead from the starvation that Mohammed Fared Adid invoked upon his own people to keep control of his territory.
Thanks for informing me about that, I will have to look up on that. :)
As to that religious outburst, I was not trying to argue that nonsense. I was pointing out the technicalities regarding the difference between the ethnic and religious boundaries within a culture is.
Yes, those ethnic and religious boundaries, must be sever, so we can stop that nonsense.

I don't know what your problem is with God in general and I don't know why you think the Christian God and the Jewish one are different when they are one and the same
Yes, I know that thing is the same god to both groups, I guess I forgot to tell you, I was once a stuck up; believing I was on the high moral ground Christian, before I was betrayed by that thing.
I use to read that book, when I was ignorant.
But I'm not going to go anymore into that.

I wonder how it is you trudge through each day.
Well, if you really want to know, I say F God and move on to the next day, after the next and so on until it wipe's me out of existence or I become consume with my own rage that I have every now and then. ;)




True that what the Hamas are showing is nothing more than propaganda to encourage the youth that becoming a suicide bomber is a good thing but there is only so much we can do. Like anything local, in a global perspective there are rules regarding certain things. As to why it is allowed to be shown on TV, that could be because the makers paid for it and the studio does have the descretion to show it. Call me the coward but I still believe that there is always room for one more round of diplomacy.

I'm not calling you are coward because you want to find a peaceful resolution.
Trying to find peace is wise, but it is very difficult to achieve, that's why the human civil wars continue and continue.... :)

mur'phon
05-15-2007, 04:47 AM
You are naive if you believe they want to talk, they don't want to talk they want to kill.

I seem to remeber them trying to coopertate with fatah, and trying to stop palestinians killing each other. I also seem to remember them trying to talk to the israeli government.

What news you have been watching?

nrk, tv2(both norwegian) + reading diferent newspapers, what have you been watching?

You are sadly mistaken !

Strangely enough, I think you are mistaken :)

They want to murder every Jew on this PLANET

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think they are just saying it to fire up their folowers

I'm not sure about your feelings toward Israel

I feel that occupying a country because the west felt sorry for the jews was a big mistake.

But as I was saying, Hamas want to kill Jews every where on Earth.

I think they say that to get suport from the huge amount of palestinians who hate Israel, and think of Israel and the jews as the same thing

I don't know where you get the idea, that they only want to destroy Israel

From the fact that they have repeatedly said that they want the israeli occupation to stop. As far as I know, Hamas is not known to kill jews not in palestine/israel.

You need to do some more research.

Aparently, so do you

What the hell are you talking about, I'm talking about wiping Hamas out.

Whoops, my bad, I thought you wanted to wipe out hamas for what they have done, serves me right for posting when exhausted :)

I'm starting to see a pattern here, you must really hate Israel

I hate what it has done, which I'm sure I'm not alone in doing.

And if you hate Israel then it's a good bet you probably hate Jews too.

No, I don't. By that reasoning, anyone hating Turkey atomatically hates moslems.

And if you hate Israel then it's a good bet you probably hate Jews too.

I don't hate jews, please stop asuming that.

Windu Chi
05-15-2007, 05:40 AM
I also seem to remember them trying to talk to the israeli government.
What?
Can you post a news article saying that?






Strangely enough, I think you are mistaken :)
I guess we are just going to have to wait any see which one of us is right.


Maybe I'm wrong, but I think they are just saying it to fire up their folowers
Well, time will tell. :)



I feel that occupying a country because the west felt sorry for the jews was a big mistake.
What do you mean felt sorry, they was almost wipe out in the Holocaust as a group, so what, too bad for their millions of deaths they had with all the families that was destroyed in that massacre.
So, what tough luck?
I think they say that to get suport from the huge amount of palestinians who hate Israel, and think of Israel and the jews as the same thing
You trust Hamas too much, mur'phon.
Israel and the Jews are the same thing they aren't seperate.

From the fact that they have repeatedly said that they want the israeli occupation to stop.
Thats not going to happen, Israel won't ever give up that land, until a time when our society get's off it's lazy ass and explore the Milky Way galaxy.

As far as I know, Hamas is not known to kill jews not in palestine/israel.
What in the hell is you talking about, they are terrorist, where do think all the suicide bombings come from. :lol:






Whoops, my bad, I thought you wanted to wipe out hamas for what they have done, serves me right for posting when exhausted :)

I only want to wipe them out if they ever plan a genocide, but as you believe they probably can be talked to.
But I won't get my hopes up, mur'phon. :)


I hate what it has done, which I'm sure I'm not alone in doing.
No, you are not alone, you definitely can be sure of that, mur'phon. :)



No, I don't. By that reasoning, anyone hating Turkey atomatically hates moslems.
I don't hate jews, please stop asuming that.
Well, then I must apologize in my assertion, my anger toward the Holocaust can cloud my judgement from time to time. :)

mur'phon
05-15-2007, 06:50 AM
What?
Can you post a news article saying that?

I'll do it when i have more time to search.

What do you mean felt sorry, they was almost wipe out in the Holocaust as a group, so what, too bad for their millions of deaths they had with all the families that was destroyed in that massacre.
So, what tough luck?

I mean that giving a turning a moslem country into a jewish one, was probably not the brightest idea in history. If they wanted to give them a country, why not chose a part of one of their own? Like a state in the US, or something.

Israel and the Jews are the same thing they aren't seperate.

As Jedimaster12 pointed out, they are seperate.

they are terrorist

Hamas is a lot more than that, they are the democratically elected ruling party in palestine. They do charity work like providing food, healthcare and education (admitedly a flawed one, but some is better than none).
Their fight against Israel using any means they can, which makes them terrorists to some, freedom fighters to others, and something in betwen to someone.

Well, then I must apologize in my assertion, my anger toward the Holocaust can cloud my judgement from time to time.

No problem, we all make such mistakes from time to time :)

lukeiamyourdad
05-15-2007, 04:06 PM
What?
Can you post a news article saying that?

It happens, but since they keep a hard line, negotiations almost never give something positive.





What do you mean felt sorry, they was almost wipe out in the Holocaust as a group, so what, too bad for their millions of deaths they had with all the families that was destroyed in that massacre.
So, what tough luck?

So, what did the world community do for Rwanda? Or the Cambodians?

There's no justification for the creation of a country in the middle of another one. From the beginning it was a bad idea.



Israel and the Jews are the same thing they aren't seperate.

I didn't know Israeli citizenship was given to every Jew on Earth...

.

Thats not going to happen, Israel won't ever give up that land, until a time when our society get's off it's lazy ass and explore the Milky Way galaxy.

No one wants to give up their "promised" land.


What in the hell is you talking about, they are terrorist, where do think all the suicide bombings come from. :lol:

So, have you heard about that Hamas bombing in Queens? They hit a synagogue I heard...


I only want to wipe them out if they ever plan a genocide, but as you believe they probably can be talked to.
But I won't get my hopes up, mur'phon. :)

You can't wipe out an ideology. Nor can you make it totally disappear through dialogue.

Windu Chi
05-15-2007, 05:33 PM
So, what did the world community do for Rwanda? Or the Cambodians?
They did nothing and I'm very p--- off about that, the U.N. uselessness is very apparent, lukeiamyourdad.
And Rwanda which is obvious, is racism, that was the main reason no one did a damn thing to prevent that genocide.

There's no justification for the creation of a country in the middle of another one. From the beginning it was a bad idea.
Well, you must realize until we explore this galaxy, we are going to have to share this planet and deal with the limited territory, lukeiamyourdad. :)




I didn't know Israeli citizenship was given to every Jew on Earth...
Well, they can't give citizenship to every Jew on Earth since the land is so limited, lukeiamyourdad.





No one wants to give up their "promised" land.
Promised by who, God? :lol:
That thing is the main reason, the Middle East War continue, because of religious influence.




So, have you heard about that Hamas bombing in Queens? They hit a synagogue I heard...

No I have not, lukeiamyourdad.
Can you post a link to a article that speak of that. :)



You can't wipe out an ideology. Nor can you make it totally disappear through dialogue.
Yes I know, but it is wise to try, lukeiamyourdad. :)

lukeiamyourdad
05-15-2007, 06:26 PM
They did nothing and I'm very p--- off about that, the U.N. uselessness is very apparent, lukeiamyourdad.
And Rwanda which is obvious, is racism, that was the main reason no one did a damn thing to prevent that genocide.

Exactly. Why give a special treat in the form of a country to the Jews?

I'm not trying to minimize the suffering they went through in history, but there's no reason to favor them over Africans.

Well, you must realize until we explore this galaxy, we are going to have to share this planet and deal with the limited territory, lukeiamyourdad. :)

Do some research. Other places were taken into consideration when choosing a piece of land for Israel. The problem is that Palestine still remains the promised land and a holy place for the Jews. It is natural that they desperately want that place.



Well, they can't give citizenship to every Jew on Earth since the land is so limited, lukeiamyourdad.

So Israelis =/ Jews right?




Promised by who, God? :lol:
That thing is the main reason, the Middle East War continue, because of religious influence.

So what? It's a factor and you cannot discount it.




No I have not, lukeiamyourdad.
Can you post a link to a article that speak of that. :)

Hopefully, you're sarcastic...



Yes I know, but it is wise to try, lukeiamyourdad. :)

So it is wise for the Islamic terrorists to try to change the current western ideology?

Windu Chi
05-15-2007, 07:02 PM
Exactly. Why give a special treat in the form of a country to the Jews?
Well, since a lot of people on this planet dispise the Jews, they gave Israel to them to possibly prevent another genocide back then.


I'm not trying to minimize the suffering they went through in history, but there's no reason to favor them over Africans.
Of course it's not, thats why I'm p--- off about any genocide, like the one going on in Darfur, nothing being done there because as usual the useless U.N. and that racist Bush.



Do some research. Other places were taken into consideration when choosing a piece of land for Israel. The problem is that Palestine still remains the promised land and a holy place for the Jews. It is natural that they desperately want that place.
No one else want Jews in there land not even Americans, the hate for them is great on this planet, lukeiamyourdad.
If the U.S. did want Jews there, Israel or whatever they would call it will be there.





So Israelis =/ Jews right?
Ok !
As I was saying, the surface area of Earth for colonization is runing out, they can't have every Jew on the planet there, because of the simiple geometry of the land, it's way too small for that, unless people want to live 5 feet apart I assume; well I will have to do some calculations to be sure. :)







So what? It's a factor and you cannot discount it.
Well if we continue to rely on that factor, then any group can find some religious evidence to say any land is theirs because their religion say so. :)






Hopefully, you're sarcastic...
No, I'm not being sarcastic, I'm really asking you to post a link. :)






So it is wise for the Islamic terrorists to try to change the current western ideology?
You got to come up with these difficult questions. :)
Hell no, it's not going to happen, they are wasting their time. :lol:
They won't obtain their Muslim Empire that they thirst for, lukeiamyourdad. :)

JediMaster12
05-15-2007, 09:38 PM
The problem is that Palestine still remains the promised land and a holy place for the Jews. It is natural that they desperately want that place.
Well if you refer to the Bible, Jerusalem is one of the main cities that is considered important to the Israelites. I believe part of the assertion that the Jews should have a homeland is based upon this context.

Well if we continue to rely on that factor, then any group can find some religious evidence to say any land is theirs because their religion say so.
You also have to look at historic context meaning who had it first way back in the time of the pharoahs. Honest truth, that land was highly dominated by nomadic herders of goats and sheep. The Middle East environments range from the desert to savannah, similar to the sub-Sahara Africa part. the main means of food source came from hunting-gathering and herding. So if we go on thatm then technically the land should belong to the nomadic tribes. :D

So Israelis =/ Jews right?
No. Israel is a political state. Jew is a person who practices Judaism. Israel was created as a Jewish homeland following WWII. The population of Israel is predominately Jewish but there is a small percentage of Christians and other groups living within her borders.

Windu Chi
05-15-2007, 10:23 PM
You also have to look at historic context meaning who had it first way back in the time of the pharoahs. Honest truth, that land was highly dominated by nomadic herders of goats and sheep. The Middle East environments range from the desert to savannah, similar to the sub-Sahara Africa part. the main means of food source came from hunting-gathering and herding. So if we go on thatm then technically the land should belong to the nomadic tribes. :D

Yes, like technically America belongs to the Native Indians. :)

GarfieldJL
05-16-2007, 12:23 AM
It's really pathetic how people go out of their way to blame Israel or the United States because some lunatics can't actually sit down and talk and instead have to resort to blowing themselves up, or using their own children as human bombs...

Totenkopf
05-16-2007, 03:21 AM
Yes, like technically America belongs to the Native Indians. :)


Well, if one believes that the first humans came out of Africa, it would be fair to say that either a)Africans were the first imperialists or that b) Africans should own the world. That is, if one wanted to be technical about it.... ;)

Seriously though, I don't believe that the mess we see in Africa today is simply b/c the world is racist. First, many of the problems are currently caused by indigenous people. Second, if Rwanda were the source of oil that places in the middle east are, there would be a much greater degree of attention paid to what goes on there. Simply put, mounting military/police style expedtions to "right" the wrongs of the world is prohibitively expensive and you're unlikely to see any individual country (or even coalition) want to expend their resources on what is essentially an economic dead end. One of the big arguments for getting out of Iraq, for instance, is that it's an ongoing civil war. If noninvolvement in civil wars is the reason for staying out of certain areas of the world........well, Africa is a continent wracked with them.

The problem with diplomacy is that it requires that both sides need to agree to some kind of compromise. If either/both sides wanted such compromises, there wouldn't be a conflict in the first place. At some point, the "resonable" party is going to have to realize that the other is negotiating in bad faith and will need to take measures to defend themselves or defeat their opponent. Some parties are simply too intractable and must be recognized as such, less self preservation go out the window. That is the problem presented today by radical islam. It's their way or the highway and it's global, not merely regional.

SilentScope001
05-16-2007, 03:55 AM
Or prehaps Radical Islam may see Westerners as being unable to negogiate and compromise, and they are the reasonable ones. Or maybe both are unreasonable idiots. Who knows?

There are always two sides to one coin...

Totenkopf
05-16-2007, 04:02 AM
Well, given their stated aims (ie submission or die), doesn't look much like room for compromise in anyones' book. Mind you, we are talking about the radical ones that wish to establish (however unrealistically in the views of others) a global caliphate. Doesn't much sound like a group of people interested in negotiating anything but their opponents subjugation.

mur'phon
05-16-2007, 07:39 AM
It's really pathetic how people go out of their way to blame Israel

Why would anyone blame Israel for anything?
The have just occupied Palestine, killed an insane amount of civilians in "revenge" attacks, bombed the remains of Palestine, killed/kidnapped many of its politicians, cuting the power causing people to die in hospitals, walling in huge chunks of what remains of Palestine, shooting "terrorists" who where using weapons of mass anoyance (known as rocks), preventing trade to the remains of Palestine, preventing palestinians from fishing, occupying its neinghbours terretories, blowing parts of Lebanon to bits, refusing to negotiate with Palestines elected goverment and a few other things that I can show you if you would like.

Or am i going out of my way to blame them? :)

GarfieldJL
05-16-2007, 10:12 AM
Actually Israel has taken ridiculous precautions to avoid collatoral damage. The problem is that a lot of these groups deliberately use innocents as human shields (particularly children). Due to how these terrorist groups operate, the blame for civilian deaths is mostly on their heads not the Israelis, whom do prosecute people for deliberately targeting civilians.

mur'phon
05-16-2007, 10:28 AM
Actually Israel has taken ridiculous precautions to avoid collateral damage

Could you please link me to some of theese?

the blame for civilian deaths is mostly on their heads not the Israelis

When the Israelies know that they are likely to kill a lot more civilians than rebels in a strike, and proceds to do it anyway, don't Israel need to take the largest part of the blame? After all, they don't need to bomb/bombard an area to kill of rebels. They could use ground forces which would cause a lot less dead civilians. I know they would loose a lot more soldiers this way, but it's unlikely that the extra dead soldiers would outnumber the civilians saved. A life is a life, wether Israeli or Palestinian.



whom do prosecute people for deliberately targeting civilians.

What about the demolition of refuge camps? as far as I know the people ordering and comitting these acts still walk free.

GarfieldJL
05-16-2007, 10:44 AM
Okay, so you're saying Israel shouldn't fight back because the terrorists are using children as human shields.

Also if you'd look to the recent Israel/Lebanon Conflict, you'd realize that most media outlets aren't at all trustworthy when it comes to things concerning Israel. Running around stating that doctored photos are the gospel truth.

lukeiamyourdad
05-16-2007, 11:47 AM
Running around stating that doctored photos are the gospel truth.

So you were there right? You know what's the truth?



This is a guerrilla vs. a standard army. You'd think people would learn from Vietnam.

This is a description of the Vietnamese communist Viet Cong:

-Linen shirt
-Linen pants
-Sandals
-Pointy hat

This is the description of a regular Vietnamese peasant:

-Linen shirt
-Linen pants
-Sandals
-Pointy hat

Which one do you shoot? Who's plotting to ambush your squad?

That's the sad reality of guerrilla warfare. Civilians as human shields. The problem is that you must try to minimize the civilian casualties or else you lose the propaganda war.

JediMaster12
05-16-2007, 01:40 PM
LIAYD: The example you gave is a sad truth. I have read the criticism on Mai Lai and the fate of the those that were charged. Of course that could be seen as wanton killing, something that we like to thing we are better than.

Seriously though, I don't believe that the mess we see in Africa today is simply b/c the world is racist. First, many of the problems are currently caused by indigenous people.
This is true since we are dealing with old tribal hatreds that still run deep. It's the same thing you find regarding tribes anywhere else in the world. The Native Amer here in the States fought each other and conducted raids and the like. It escalated I think when the European settlers arrived in the name of imperialism. They divided Africa without regard for territories established by the native peoples. Then they encouraged them to kill each other but also they wanted them as labor. Interesting thing in my opinion.

mur'phon
05-16-2007, 02:39 PM
Okay, so you're saying Israel shouldn't fight back because the terrorists are using children as human shields.

No, I said that bombing/shelling a house containing rebels is not the best way to avoid civilan casualties.

Also if you'd look to the recent Israel/Lebanon Conflict, you'd realize that most media outlets aren't at all trustworthy when it comes to things concerning Israel.

What make some more trustworthy than others? Please enlighten me

Running around stating that doctored photos are the gospel truth.

The only photo I have seen in the conflict that was shown to be doctored was a picture where a lot of smoke had been added. If there are others, please let me know.

Allronix
05-17-2007, 05:14 AM
"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. [...] This is not a way of life at all in any true sense. Under the clouds of war, it is humanity hanging on a cross of iron."
-Dwight Eisenhower

There is no historical precedent
To put the words in the mouth of the President
There's no such thing as a winnable war
It's a lie that we don't believe anymore
Mr. Reagan says we will protect you
I don't subscribe to this point of view
Believe me when I say to you
I hope the Russians love their children too

We share the same biology
Regardless of ideology
What might save us, me, and you
Is that the Russians love their children too
-Sting "Russians" (written during the Cold War, but the same old song's just being sung with new lyrics)


People listen to this garbage because they are desperate, angry, see no way out of the situation, and need someone to blame for it. Usually, it's whoever seems better off that's within range of their fist. Kreia had a point about cruelty cruelties begetting greater ones. These children see armed guards shooting into their windows, their homes demolished, and their families deported to camps.

On the other side, there's wave after wave of people who believe their lives so worthless that all they can do is die and take as many with them as they can - doing so every day. In both an attempt to prevent them and in retalliation - more armed guards, more demolitions...you get the picture. Meanwhile, groups like Hezbollah and Hamas make political hay and tons of recruits by doling out money, building hospitals, and making themselves look good to the locals, putting the proverbial chocolate coating on their repulsive message.

It's such a mess over there with both sides apparantly so determined to kill one another that I would almost call the situation hopeless.

GarfieldJL
05-17-2007, 01:43 PM
That's nice cept we're not talking about the Russians here. Last I checked the Soviets didn't use their own children as human bombs.

SilentScope001
07-08-2007, 01:02 PM
Uh, sorry for accidently relighting a discussion but...

Hamas TV on Friday broadcast what it said was the last episode of a weekly children's show featuring "Farfour," a Mickey Mouse look-alike who had made worldwide headlines for preaching Islamic domination and armed struggle to youngsters.

In the final skit, Farfour was beaten to death by an actor posing as an Israeli official trying to buy Farfour's land. At one point, Farfour called the Israeli a "terrorist."

"Farfour was martyred while defending his land," said Sara, the teen presenter. He was killed "by the killers of children," she added.

The weekly show, featuring a giant black-and-white rodent with a high-pitched voice, had attracted worldwide attention because the character urged Palestinian children to fight Israel. It was broadcast on Hamas-affiliated Al-Aksa TV.

Station officials said Friday that Farfour was taken off the air to make room for new programs.

Station manager Mohammed Bilal said he didn't know yet what would be shown instead.

Israeli officials have denounced the program, "Tomorrow's Pioneers," as incendiary and outrageous. The program was also opposed by the state-run Palestinian Broadcasting Corporation, which is controlled by Fatah.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1183053066461&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Say what you will about Hamas, but, at the very least, they know how best to end a childern show.

GarfieldJL
07-08-2007, 01:09 PM
They made the psycho mouse char into a martyr is what they did.