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trettonkilolax
05-30-2007, 10:36 PM
I'm wondering if any of you who has a female main character in KotOR II remembers if Revan is refered as a male or female? Because while my main character being male all the others refers to Revan as a female (when on i.e. Wookiepedia Revan comes off as a he), and I think I know why.

The first time I played KotOR II I thought all along that the main character indeed was Revan (AGAIN!) because I got all these indications and vibes (same ship, same places, same appearance (if you choose), same mysterious background, Revan nowhere to be seen and so on...). But the mysterious thing was the fact that others always refered Revan as a female when my exile was male!

Then I figured, maybe Lucas Arts realized that some players might think that the exile was Revan so they made a very cheap resolution and made Revan refered to the exile's opposite gender in all of the conversations just so you wouldn't think it was KotOR I all over again...

What do you think?

Darth Kalverys
05-30-2007, 10:42 PM
Revan is supposed to be a LS Male and the exile is supposed to be LS female

JediRevan
05-30-2007, 11:59 PM
Actually it depends on the person playing the games as to whether Revan is LS male or LS female and the same can be said for the Exile.

Master Zionosis
05-31-2007, 12:36 AM
Ultimately yes it is up to the player but since the games have become cannon Wikipedia states that: Revan = LS | Exile = LS.

So that is Cannon but its all fun you choose what you want to be, personally i play cannon and go LS each game and male K1 and Female K2.

And as to the reason all of your party referring Revan as female, is most likely because when you first met Atton on Peragus when he said that Revan was a woman you probably agreed, thus telling the game that Revan was a she, i always say the line to Atton "How long have you been locked up in that cage Revan was a man not a woman", that way everyone refers to Revan as a he.

Jediphile
05-31-2007, 02:55 AM
In TSL, both Revan's and Exile's genders are set by the player. For the exile you set gender during character creation, and for Revan you set it (and Revan's alignment) during the first conversation with Atton. Setting Revan to female meets with a few bugs along the way, however, since there are a few places where Revan is referred to as "he" even if you decide Revan was female. However, those are few and clearly oversights.

Allronix
05-31-2007, 03:47 AM
LucasArts said Revan was LSM, and Exile was LSF via Leland Chee. I have my theories as to WHY, but they'd probably start a shouting match. Needless to say, I find them the weakest of the 4 possibilities in their respective games.

The house rule is that Revan was LSF. As to Exile, well...bro in law and I can agree Exile's a man, and that Mical came along regardless. However, he sees LS, and I see DS.

Lord Spitfire
05-31-2007, 03:50 AM
LucasArts said Revan was LSM, and Exile was LSF via Leland Chee. I have my theories as to WHY, but they'd probably start a shouting match. Needless to say, I find them the weakest of the 4 possibilities in their respective games.

Why is that?

I find the weakest being DSF and LSF. I think the best would be LSM Revan and DSM Exile, or LSF Revan and DSM Exile.

And NO, the genders are set by the character in the first conversation with Atton.

Allronix
05-31-2007, 04:19 AM
Short answer:

Female Revan got access to 2/3 of the largest dialogue tree in-game (Carth's = 800K, Bastila's = 600K), a second romance (the scripting on Juhani was set to female, though bugged - I checked), and a third ending (granted, you have to cheat to find it). There was only one conversation totally locked to her (Bastila's final one). From aestetic viewpoint, it balances the cast - four women, four men, two droids, makes the Leviathan torture sequence fit a bit smoother (as you know Saul's not going to permanantly damage a Jedi Malak wants, but the non-Jedi ex-lieutenant of his is dead meat), and adds an additional half-twist to the revelation as everyone expects Revan to be this big guy, and not a Leia-sized gal.

LS? Well, from a practical standpoint, you have to mow down half your crew as a DS player. The crew in K1 were also very honor-bound with strong ethical beliefs and lines they won't cross - even Canderous operates out of his own people's sense of morals. From aestetics, the LS ending fits with the Classic Trilogy homage the game has going - from it opening with a big fight on a doomed ship to standing in front of the big crowd, everyone's partying because the big nasty battle station went boom.

K2 - Mical's great in fanfic. Damn, he cleans up in fanfic. In game, he loses to Brianna's arc. She starts out the scorned, shunned, "least" of her sisters with so little pride in herself she won't even acknowledge her name. During the course of the game, she questions her beliefs, embraces her heritage, and returns stronger than all of her sisters/tormentors combined.

DS? Well, the homage to ROTJ in the end, the fact that the "mentor" figure is such a corrupt old hag but makes a diabolical amount of sense. The fact the game itself is so relentlessly dark - everyone dies, the crew snipe at one another like nobles courting a monarch's favor, Kreia mind-rapes other crew if they come too close to upsetting her apple cart. The game also goes out of its way to show the Jedi are despised and hated, with arguments straight out of Brin.

True_Avery
05-31-2007, 05:13 AM
First off, I'd like to state that the Gender of both Exile and Revan were both done for commercial means to give them a Gender. Technically neither of them have been given a canon Gender, but needed one in order to put the character into wiki/books/commercial/ect. I have the article somewhere and I'll fish it out if needed.

Revan:
Now, I will agree with Allronix on female Revan. After playing male and female, female just somehow had a deeper story that gave every character more meaning. It gave Juhani a back story (even though they cut it from the game), gave so much more conversation with Carth into his character and yet you still got to know practically everything there is to know about Bastila as well... just without the love. It gave the hidden ending, and for the first time in really Star Wars history it gave a women a chance to take up the plate as an incredibly strong character instead of the still typical short sighted or overly harsh women.
I've played all 4 possible ways to play Kotor and I believed completely, and still do, that Revan was a Canon female due simply to so much more content. Believe it or not, I only found out in about the last month that Revan is "supposed" to be a guy after years of playing.

Allignment? My personal belief is that Revan does not have an allignment. Malak says it, Revan's story says it, Kreia says it. There is no canon proof at all, but I believe Revan to be Gray Side Female with Light Side Kotor ending.

Exile:
As I think most of us can agree, TSL needed a lot more work. Personally I place Exile as female as I feel that creates a stronger bond between her and Kreia, and to also be more of a Light/Gray Side. No mean to sound offensive in any way possible, but I also believe that the personal exile, cutting oneself off from the Force that completely, bonding with everybody that easily, and becoming that emotionally detached would come from more of a devistated female than male. Again, no means is that an attempt to take any sort of jab at men.

Mical: Overdone in fics, but he is a nice source of info, opinion, and relationship. He should have followed the male Exile regardless, even though the Mical works better for female.

Brianna: This is where I believe TSL lost out more. I personally believe Brianna follows the Exile regardless of Gender, but gets closer to the male than female. She would be a great character to bring the Exile to a better understanding of personal strength and will of mind regardless of Gender.

Sion: The fact the Exile, as a female, has so much affect on him and eventually redeems him is so incredibly Star Wars I can barely express it. In the Telos Restoration Mod Sion gets more dialog and options to help the Exile that were not there previously that give the feel this was how it was supposed to be... to me anyway.

The gender specific characters joining the party or not was a huge disapointment to me and the second I get TSL for PC I'm grabbing the Brianna female mod. I believed that Juhani situation pushed it a little, even though I am highly highly disapointed they cut her backstory, but full on characters not joining or not...*sigh*. Cutting so much of the canon and lore into two seperate pieces is absurd and should never have been done.

I'll admit it, I'm also biased to Star Wars for always making the male the honorable hero while the women get stuck with bad dialog at times and simply little to do but sit back and watch the men deal with everything.

Here is a quote that I think is beautiful in all rights, summing up why I choose to play female as a female:
Yes, this seems like another ackward an ill-placed post. But I believe those who read my work should know this: I DO try as much as possible to work every and all official Lucasfilm/arts sanctioned bit of information upto a point: that point being a female Revan character—the choice to go canon on this character given the multiplicity of male heroes in the Star Wars genre irks me, and therefore will never earn my support—unless Lelan Chee recants and there is a female Revan doll along side Barbie who can take her mask off and you can dress up. I don’t agree with the idea of cliche = canon as a Star Wars fan. The male hero cliche is old and over used in the Star Wars genre. If its creator is to be true his vision, then he will allow for change, otherwise the SW genre will be forgotten not by unwilling fans but by its own creator.

As a woman I used to dream of reading every Star Wars book to my children—but I refuse to send the message to any of my girls that they are less able to become heroes simply because George Lucas says so. That is my rant—girls by the Force can bear life—and by the Force and in the service of the Force they more luminous beings… my fic reflects this
This is Star Shadow's fic btw and it is one of the most brilliant things I have ever read: http://www.kotorfanmedia.com/?author=646

Diego Varen
05-31-2007, 05:26 AM
I find canon the strongest and the majority of the time, I will always follow canon. I don't mind a male Exile though, but I dislike a female Revan, since for me it doesn't feel right.

JediRevan
05-31-2007, 09:10 AM
I play either one. I have never read anywhere that Revan was male, not even on the Lucasarts website.

Lord Spitfire
05-31-2007, 10:44 AM
First off, I'd like to state that the Gender of both Exile and Revan were both done for commercial means to give them a Gender. Technically neither of them have been given a canon Gender, but needed one in order to put the character into wiki/books/commercial/ect. I have the article somewhere and I'll fish it out if needed.

Revan:
Now, I will agree with Allronix on female Revan. After playing male and female, female just somehow had a deeper story that gave every character more meaning. It gave Juhani a back story (even though they cut it from the game), gave so much more conversation with Carth into his character and yet you still got to know practically everything there is to know about Bastila as well... just without the love. It gave the hidden ending, and for the first time in really Star Wars history it gave a women a chance to take up the plate as an incredibly strong character instead of the still typical short sighted or overly harsh women.
I've played all 4 possible ways to play Kotor and I believed completely, and still do, that Revan was a Canon female due simply to so much more content. Believe it or not, I only found out in about the last month that Revan is "supposed" to be a guy after years of playing.

Allignment? My personal belief is that Revan does not have an allignment. Malak says it, Revan's story says it, Kreia says it. There is no canon proof at all, but I believe Revan to be Gray Side Female with Light Side Kotor ending.

Exile:
As I think most of us can agree, TSL needed a lot more work. Personally I place Exile as female as I feel that creates a stronger bond between her and Kreia, and to also be more of a Light/Gray Side. No mean to sound offensive in any way possible, but I also believe that the personal exile, cutting oneself off from the Force that completely, bonding with everybody that easily, and becoming that emotionally detached would come from more of a devistated female than male. Again, no means is that an attempt to take any sort of jab at men.

Mical: Overdone in fics, but he is a nice source of info, opinion, and relationship. He should have followed the male Exile regardless, even though the Mical works better for female.

Brianna: This is where I believe TSL lost out more. I personally believe Brianna follows the Exile regardless of Gender, but gets closer to the male than female. She would be a great character to bring the Exile to a better understanding of personal strength and will of mind regardless of Gender.

Sion: The fact the Exile, as a female, has so much affect on him and eventually redeems him is so incredibly Star Wars I can barely express it. In the Telos Restoration Mod Sion gets more dialog and options to help the Exile that were not there previously that give the feel this was how it was supposed to be... to me anyway.

The gender specific characters joining the party or not was a huge disapointment to me and the second I get TSL for PC I'm grabbing the Brianna female mod. I believed that Juhani situation pushed it a little, even though I am highly highly disapointed they cut her backstory, but full on characters not joining or not...*sigh*. Cutting so much of the canon and lore into two seperate pieces is absurd and should never have been done.

I'll admit it, I'm also biased to Star Wars for always making the male the honorable hero while the women get stuck with bad dialog at times and simply little to do but sit back and watch the men deal with everything.

Here is a quote that I think is beautiful in all rights, summing up why I choose to play female as a female:

This is Star Shadow's fic btw and it is one of the most brilliant things I have ever read: http://www.kotorfanmedia.com/?author=646

You make a pretty good point with Revan. For me, 50% of my games have been DSM Revan, 25% have been LSF Revan, about 25% LSM, and none with DSF.

True, some mechanics of the story flow better with a female. Some would also argue that Carth deserves a lover more than Bastila, which I agree to in a way. But, I don't know, a female Revan just doesn't seem right to me. I don't mean to be sexist at all and I mean no offence, I'm just stating that it doesn't quite add up for me. He walked in the powers of Malachor, basked in the dark side, studied the ancient secrets of the True Sith, and made a decision to conquer the Republic in order to protect. Such an aggressive, rash, but not neccessarily wrong, move would be more common in ment, while I picture women as being much subtler in their plans. Such as, bringing the senate down from the inside, perhaps?

Now, throughout the two Star Wars trilogies, I have to agree that the females were too . . . underused, and were always the damsels in distress. Then, the males are always the heroic type. Now, this is why I am in favor of - or rather, agree with - a female Exile. As you said, due to genetical nature, a female would be more devastated by being cut off to all life and having power itself stripped from her. Women are usually able to connect to others better. However, I find that the hardship and coldness of an Exiled life, having to wander the edges of the galaxy as practically a walking corpse would be more imaginable for a man. I think that the Exile has a darkness in him that I can't really imagine in a female. Because, Steryotypically - emphasis on the word, STERYOTYPE - women are kinder and more "good" than men. However, the influence of having male heroes - thus more character conflicts with males - could have created this steryotype, but it is a steryotype nonetheless. And EVERYBODY loves steryotype, right? :p So, I'm not sure whether I want Exile to be male or female at this point.


And just a side note . . . what's the name of the fanfic on the page in your link? ;)

Ctrl Alt Del
06-01-2007, 10:41 PM
Now, throughout the two Star Wars trilogies, I have to agree that the females were too . . . underused, and were always the damsels in distress.

It's funny you said that, because Padme Amidala and Princess Leia Organa didn't seemed to me helplessly at all in (most) of the movies. Padme gives the geonosians a tough time, on EP II and Leia is kinda hard on all the Old Trilogy. For me, females on Star Wars have much of a character, thank you. ;)]

Then, the males are always the heroic type. Now, this is why I am in favor of - or rather, agree with - a female Exile. As you said, due to genetical nature, a female would be more devastated by being cut off to all life and having power itself stripped from her.)

What makes you say that?

And, I agree with Allronix, but, I don't know, I resist so much on thinking on Revan as a female. And I don't have the means to say why right now, so I'll think some more and give you guys a deserving answer.

Rockstar
06-01-2007, 11:11 PM
Revan definately suited the persona of a man as a Sithlord and a Jedi. I actually felt that although female revan had more dialogue options, the male revan was far better.

The romance with Bastilla is awesome and possibly the best romance in a game ever back in 2003 when it was released. This element alone i think made the male senario better than the female senario. It also balances the Jedi in your party to 2 men and 2 women.

Carth is too much of an anal, untrusting sissy for a strong, powerful women to be attracted to IMO. This does not fit with reality! lol.

Revan was a man for sure!

Exile was definately better a female i think and the only thing better for the male was the romances with Visas and Handmaden (especially handmaiden and her controversal return to Telos!).

I NEVER play a female Revan. I do however reverse the cannon and play a male Exile :) Female Revan is just too unsuiting and it's just wrong seeing a sexy girl's face behind that mask.

JediRevan
06-01-2007, 11:23 PM
Who wrote the canon that states Revan has to be male?

Lord Spitfire
06-01-2007, 11:41 PM
Who wrote the canon that states Revan has to be male?

Bioware did, and they are the makers of the game. Just how Obsidian stated Exile was female, and they made KotOR2.

True_Avery
06-01-2007, 11:57 PM
Bioware did, and they are the makers of the game. Just how Obsidian stated Exile was female, and they made KotOR2.
This is true, but only for comercial reasons.

I was just wondering if you've been called upon to enter a canon ending to Knights Of The Old Republic II:The Sith Lords into the holocron.
No. We've avoided anything concrete about the canon ending. The only reason why we decided on a canon gender for the Revan and the exile was out of editorial necessity.
http://forums.starwars.com/thread.jspa?threadID=152583&start=1005

That was posted by Leland Chee in the Q&A thread at Starwars.com.

Revan and Exile's gender was made for editorial reasons, not technically for canon for story reasons. You cannot say "he/she" in offical books and get a good response, so they needed to just say a gender and get on with it. The game shows completely that either gender could be canon, and later Star Wars states that Palpatine altered the archives of the galaxy to his liking, so it's hard to be sure something like gender could not have been changed in the long run.

So, to everybody that goes nuts over "That can't be Revan's gender because of this this this and this!", please remember it is not a fully offical canon. Revan and Exile's gender is personal preference, and for those of us that dare to like to see Revan as a female... don't let anybody tell you that you are wrong from fact.

I will always believe that the gender of Revan and Exile is unknown to all but the person who plays him/her until George Lucas walks up to me and tells me whats what. The game allows you to be either gender, play the game differently with each, and still come out with the same 2 endings. Revan and Exile are your character, and another who tries to force a gender down your throat is not worth my respect.

Diego Varen
06-02-2007, 02:07 AM
I NEVER play a female Revan. I do however reverse the cannon and play a male Exile :) Female Revan is just too unsuiting and it's just wrong seeing a sexy girl's face behind that mask.

I have to agree with you Rockstar. Female Revan just doesn't seem right and has no advantages, other than the romance with Carth (Which I've never tried). Male Exiles have two things better than female Exiles. A romance with Brianna/Visas and the fight with Atris is much better.

Allronix
06-02-2007, 03:15 AM
Carth is too much of an anal, untrusting sissy for a strong, powerful women to be attracted to IMO. This does not fit with reality! lol.

Dude. Head to kotorfanmedia.com. The Flyboy has quite the fanclub. One of the mods on that board is a romance novelist and was actually impressed Bioware "did their homework" and gave the girls a 38-year-old widower with a teenaged son and some baggage he manages to off-load.

As for why I really like the romance? Well, that's for PM or another post. Suffice to say, I appreciated that he was mature enough to know love from infatuation (something I could not say for the boys of K2), that he got to know the gal as "just" a gal (no Force involved, and neither party hiding what they knew), and that he could take and dish out a little abuse. ("Hairless Wookiee? Just calm down before your head explodes." "Oh, ouch! I think you hurt my man-feelings on that one.")

Meanwhile, the Bastila romance left me a tad uncomfortable, even after 2 play-throughs as a guy. I wasn't sure if she really loved my character, or was infatuated with "my" good looks, Force ability, working hormones she's never had the chance to use, a Force Bond amplifying feelings that may or not be there, and a bit of a desire to rebel against the masters by running off with the bad boy. Plus, the hand she had in your rebirth added an Oedepus Rex element to the whole thing.


I NEVER play a female Revan. I do however reverse the cannon and play a male Exile :) Female Revan is just too unsuiting and it's just wrong seeing a sexy girl's face behind that mask.

Meh. Lumiya was actually quite the looker once. So was Bane's apprentice, IIRC. Actually, I'm kinda in agreement with Atton - "The men are bad enough, but when a woman falls to the Dark Side..."

True_Avery
06-02-2007, 03:43 AM
No mean to sound weird, but that is a great summary of the two relationships Allronix. Probably one of he best I have seen yet.

I agree, the Carth relationship felt so much more mature and... well... worked on than the Bastila relationship did. I remember the first time I played through male and thinking "This is way too cheezy and overdone to be a stable romance." There was so much more that could have been done beside a puppy love obsession that felt more like two high school kids flirting than two adults speaking out to one another. Female Revan and Carth had, in my opinion, quite a realistic relationship going on that could have worked out opposed to the Bastila romance. Female Revan running away from Carth opposed to running from Bastila just has a somewhat more loving and mature feel to it. One is running from a relationship that was going to far and would have stopped any plans she had and possibly kill Carth, and the other looked more like Revan running away from Bastila due to something more important than puppy love coming across.

Thats my opinion anyway.

Totenkopf
06-02-2007, 03:53 AM
In TSL, both Revan's and Exile's genders are set by the player. For the exile you set gender during character creation, and for Revan you set it (and Revan's alignment) during the first conversation with Atton. Setting Revan to female meets with a few bugs along the way, however, since there are a few places where Revan is referred to as "he" even if you decide Revan was female. However, those are few and clearly oversights.


Yeah, glitches can be funny things. I had one game where the conversation between Exile and Mandalore refers to Revan's gender interchangeably.

Having played all 4 options (ie M/F) for Revan and Exile, my default positions are still male for both, regardless of alignment. If the Lucas Arts people decide on a cannon gender for the characters, that's what they will be. It won't change the fact, however, that the gender and alignment roles in the games can still be chosen. I suspect that an affinity for male or female is still going to largely depend on the gender of the player (ie, the "it feels right to me" argument).

True_Avery
06-02-2007, 04:07 AM
Having played all 4 options (ie M/F) for Revan and Exile, my default positions are still male for both, regardless of alignment. If the Lucas Arts people decide on a cannon gender for the characters, that's what they will be. It won't change the fact, however, that the gender and alignment roles in the games can still be chosen. I suspect that an affinity for male or female is still going to largely depend on the gender of the player (ie, the "it feels right to me" argument).
Yeah, I don't think the topic can go much farhter beyond people claiming what their preference is, and then some arguing about it. Fun while it lasted, but I'm done with this thread.

Lord Spitfire
06-02-2007, 04:56 AM
No mean to sound weird, but that is a great summary of the two relationships Allronix. Probably one of he best I have seen yet.

I agree, the Carth relationship felt so much more mature and... well... worked on than the Bastila relationship did. I remember the first time I played through male and thinking "This is way too cheezy and overdone to be a stable romance." There was so much more that could have been done beside a puppy love obsession that felt more like two high school kids flirting than two adults speaking out to one another. Female Revan and Carth had, in my opinion, quite a realistic relationship going on that could have worked out opposed to the Bastila romance. Female Revan running away from Carth opposed to running from Bastila just has a somewhat more loving and mature feel to it. One is running from a relationship that was going to far and would have stopped any plans she had and possibly kill Carth, and the other looked more like Revan running away from Bastila due to something more important than puppy love coming across.

Thats my opinion anyway.

Perhaps . . . though I don't agree that Revan "ran away" from Bastila/Carth, not in the retrospect you put it in.

In fact, it would be much more sensible for me for Revan to leave Bastila and refuse to take her with him in order to protect her . . . seems like female Revan would have taken Carth, I don't know why . . .

Emperor Devon
06-02-2007, 05:39 AM
seems like female Revan would have taken Carth, I don't know why .

I wouldn't know why either. :P She'd love Carth just as much as a male Revan would've loved Bastila, with the added risk of Carth being nowhere nearly as handy in a fight. Definitely not a good idea to have taken him.

Jediphile
06-02-2007, 06:48 AM
Female Revan got access to 2/3 of the largest dialogue tree in-game (Carth's = 800K, Bastila's = 600K), a second romance (the scripting on Juhani was set to female, though bugged - I checked), and a third ending (granted, you have to cheat to find it). There was only one conversation totally locked to her (Bastila's final one).

Female Revan may get more dialogue, but then so what? To me the depth of the experience will always have higher priority, and what do you get with the female Revan love interests? You get nothing with Juhani, because there just isn't much to go on. You get something with Carth, and you could argue that this helps Revan stay clear of the dark side by reminding her of something she needs to hold onto. However, you can make just the same argument for male Revan's feelings for Bastila, and in his case it goes both ways - it keeps him on the right path, but in the end he must leave himself utterly defenseless to Bastila to prove his feelings and risk death at her hands to bring her back from the dark side. That's a much stronger point IMHO.

From aestetic viewpoint, it balances the cast - four women, four men, two droids, makes the Leviathan torture sequence fit a bit smoother (as you know Saul's not going to permanantly damage a Jedi Malak wants, but the non-Jedi ex-lieutenant of his is dead meat), and adds an additional half-twist to the revelation as everyone expects Revan to be this big guy, and not a Leia-sized gal.

Revan IS big and powerful, guy or gal. It's precisely for that reason that male Revan has to demonstrate vulnerability to Bastila at the end of the game to save her is such a compelling point. Female Revan doesn't have that.

DS? Well, the homage to ROTJ in the end, the fact that the "mentor" figure is such a corrupt old hag but makes a diabolical amount of sense. The fact the game itself is so relentlessly dark - everyone dies, the crew snipe at one another like nobles courting a monarch's favor, Kreia mind-rapes other crew if they come too close to upsetting her apple cart. The game also goes out of its way to show the Jedi are despised and hated, with arguments straight out of Brin.

No, I think TSL works better for LS. Why? Because Kreia really doesn't like the DS Exile. Note her differing comments to the unconscious exile on Dantooine:

Kreia to LS exile: "There are places in the galaxy where the dark side of the Force runs strong. Such places are born of war, of death - of suffering. And if unchecked, their power grows, scream building upon scream, until any who can hear succumb to it - or die.It breaks the spirit beneath it - as all wars do.There is a place in the galaxy where the dark side of the Force runs strong. It is something of the Sith, but it was fueled by war. It corrupts all that walks on its surface, drowns them in the power of the dark side - it corrupts all life. And it feeds on death. Revan knew the power of such places... and the power in making them. They can be used to break the will of others... of Jedi, promising them power, and turning them to the dark side.Did you never wonder how Revan corrupted so many of the Jedi, so much of the Republic, so quickly?The Mandalorian Wars were a series of massacres that masked another war, a war of conversion.Culminating a final atrocity that no Jedi could walk away from... save one.And that is what I sought to understand. How one could turn away from such power, give up the Force... and still live. But I see what happened now. It is because you had no choice.It is because you were afraid."

Not exactly lots of praise, but the alternative is even more dismissing:

Kreia to DS exile: "Is it as you expected?I had thought you were the last of the Jedi, as did the Sith. But there are more of them than you know.Yes, and that is I, though I am not of them any longer. Yes, and that is why this place is empty. You are correct - time is something that neither of us has. But for now, we must speak.Your actions have crippled the Order, perhaps destroyed them. {A little uncertain}No... perhaps... it is difficult to say. For every Jedi slain, for every Sith slain, another rises. But the Order is wounded, yes. Oh no, there is a purpose in such things. That is what we are here to discuss.Because there is something we must discuss. {Not proud}Oh, yes. Your hate has destroyed them - you should be proud of the blood you have spilled, the lives you have ended. {Should say victory, like she doesn't believe it is a victory at all, but a crime}But before enjoying this victory - there is something we must discuss first.The destruction of the Order, the Masters, it was not an end in itself. I did not expect them to still live, their presence was... knowledge I did not possess.But you have corrected that, and now the sides of this conflict are as I had thought them to be. There are no more unknowns. But now this has been corrected, and now the sides of this conflict are as I had thought them to be. There are no more unknowns. And what you have done - it is not enough. Although I did not expect them to still live, I had hoped you would learn something from the Jedi Masters as they fell before you. Not just of battle, but of yourself... and the Force. {Quiet, this is important}I must know if killing them, if revenge brought you any measure of satisfaction. If seeing them dead has settled the disquiet within you.That is your wish - not mine. There is strength in defeating an enemy, not slaying them. Because it matters to me, in a way that never mattered to the Jedi, to the Council when they cast you out.You must understand - I did not wish the Jedi dead. Defeated... perhaps.But their presence in the Force held dangers - they may have been used to sustain the one that threatens us. {A little surprised, didn't want them dead, just shown that they were wrong}Did I wish to see them dead? No, defeated perhaps.I merely wished them to see that they and their teachings were wrong. {Beat at second sentence}That one could not truly understand the Force simply by adhering to the Jedi Code. {Slight sadness }All I have ever trained have been failures to them, students who went to fight the Mandalorians, who fell to the dark side, who abandoned their training. {Followed by pride}To see one that had the strength to best them, that is a moment I will not forget. Yet, it has not been as satisfying as I had hoped. To best one in battle is one thing. To defeat them without striking a blow - that was my hope. Regardless... it had to be done. To have such powerful Jedi still live, still be felt in the Force even on such worlds as they had chosen, was a threat that had to be ended.To the Sith? No, not to the Sith - perhaps not in the way you would think.Let us return to my question. If by killing these Jedi, if you achieved any measure of peace.That is not important. First - let us return to my question. If by killing these Jedi, if you achieved any measure of peace.{Firm, pronouncing judgment, now everything hits the fan}It was as I thought. {Quiet}You have failed me. Completely, and utterly.Ahh!{Hissing, disgusted, just stabbed herself so the player would feel it}There - do you feel that, exile? It cuts through your defenses - as unprepared for such an attack as you are. {Stern, holding back pain}Let that pain be a lesson - and a reminder of what you have forgotten.Pain travels both ways along connections in the Force - it casts echoes, always - and one can learn to draw strength from such connections... and take it from others.It is a lesson you know well... and you have taught to others... at the end of the Mandalorian Wars. {GP: She fires a drain force on the player, draining his energy.]}{Accusing, angry, this is the final moment}I have taught you to hear the Force again, shown you the contrast, and yet still you do not understand. This is what you have wrought. Countless murderers, slayers, assassins, born of war that has as always, has taught the wrong lesson.{Accusing, disgusted}You showed them life without the Force - and instead of showing them truth, power, all you showed them was how the galaxy may die. You are responsible for all of this. Even now, events spiral towards destruction, and there is nothing that can be done because you refuse to listen, to understand.You have seen the effects you have on those close to you, heard the echoes scream across dead planets, and watched as your strength has grown. Yet it is for nothing. To have the Jedi Masters brought low by such a failure, there is no victory in that. You have not heard a thing I have taught, and for all I have said, you have never learned to listen. {[Gameplay Programmer: Kreia does a Force Crush on the player, lifting him, and then holding him there.]}{[GP: She looks around the chamber.]}{Looks around}Vrook was right to come here, though he did not recognize the connection until too late. This place will hide you from the Sith for a time - enough to do what must be done. {[Gameplay Programmer: At the end, she lets the player fall, and he twitches.]}You were my last hope, the only one who could avert the disaster that comes. And now you have left me nothing. {Sadly, dissappointed}You were my last hope, the only one who could change what is to come. And now you have left me nothing. I can teach you no longer. I have cut my bond to you - I have no need of it any longer.I can teach you no longer. The bond between our lives remain, but that is all. It is my last lesson to you. I shall teach you no longer. Our bond remains, but that is all.Stay here and die, apprentice, among the wreckage of all that remains of the Jedi. It is a fitting grave until the Sith come to end you... to end everything. {[Gameplay Programmer: Kreia walks away from the fallen player, toward the exit.]}{[GP: Spoken as Kreia walks away.]}Listen... awaken... or die.{[GP: Spoken as Kreia walks away.]}And as you lie here, I pray you will listen... and finally awaken. {[Gameplay Programmer: Player lies in the flagstones of the Enclave, broken, as it fades to black.]}{}"

Kreia may look down on the LS exile, but the DS exile completely fails her and is scorned for it.

Besides, the exile needs to the LS just for the sake of balance. There are two sith lords in the game. Three with Kreia. Four if you count Atris. And the jedi masters are ignorant fools who fail to grasp what is going on. It makes so much more sense to me that a LS exile saves the galaxy because he feels it's worth saving than a DS exile who saves it because he has nothing better to do and is forced into it by the sith. You're right that TSL is dark. But that's why the exile needs to be LS - he is the counterbalance.


[b]Revan:
Now, I will agree with Allronix on female Revan. After playing male and female, female just somehow had a deeper story that gave every character more meaning. It gave Juhani a back story (even though they cut it from the game), gave so much more conversation with Carth into his character and yet you still got to know practically everything there is to know about Bastila as well... just without the love. It gave the hidden ending, and for the first time in really Star Wars history it gave a women a chance to take up the plate as an incredibly strong character instead of the still typical short sighted or overly harsh women.

Lots of strong characters in Star Wars. Leia was always strong. Luke even says so himself. While he has wavered and Han believed in nothing, Leia was always true to her ideals. Padmé is certainly also the idealist in the prequels. What's missing is a powerful female jedi. But if you make Revan or exile female on that basis, then you're doing it for the sake of equality between the genders and not for the sake of what's best in the plot. I like that the big and powerful Revan has to demonstrate vulnerability to win Bastila back. It's a strong plot point, because Revan ends up having to let go of all the control and power that he has been building up until that point. Female Revan has no scene like that.

Allignment? My personal belief is that Revan does not have an allignment. Malak says it, Revan's story says it, Kreia says it. There is no canon proof at all, but I believe Revan to be Gray Side Female with Light Side Kotor ending.

Well, you could call LS Revan grey in the sense that Jolee is grey. But that's still LS to me. What they have in common is how they reject the rules and conventions in order to pursue what they think is the greater good. I find them both LS on that basis, while the jedi masters just blindly hold onto their jedi code... and we see what that brings them in TSL...


Exile:
As I think most of us can agree, TSL needed a lot more work. Personally I place Exile as female as I feel that creates a stronger bond between her and Kreia, and to also be more of a Light/Gray Side. No mean to sound offensive in any way possible, but I also believe that the personal exile, cutting oneself off from the Force that completely, bonding with everybody that easily, and becoming that emotionally detached would come from more of a devistated female than male. Again, no means is that an attempt to take any sort of jab at men.

That makes no sense to me. I've always felt the exile should be male for two reasons.

The first is due to love interests. The male exile caused or was at least a factor in Atris' fall to the dark side due to her feelings for him. It makes sense that she loves the male exile, which is a major plot point, which is weaker for the female exile. Instead the female exile has Sion's love, which makes no sense whatsoever and comes straight out of the blue. Then there is the relationship to handmaiden and disciple, but we'll get to that.

The other reason is due to the exile's nature. In short, the exile is pretty pathetic. I mean, this person has been in utter denial about what really happened at Malachor V and is responsible for the destruction Nihilus has wrought as a result, according to the jedi masters. This is a person with some pretty severe psychological problems. And so it turns out, of course, that canon dictates it must be a woman... I don't like the implications that lie in that statement. And so I think it would be more fitting for it to be a man.


Mical: Overdone in fics, but he is a nice source of info, opinion, and relationship. He should have followed the male Exile regardless, even though the Mical works better for female.

I don't know if I agree Mical works better for females. I mean, take a look at some of the things he says:

"I met you on Dantooine, long ago, briefly. You taught us the ways of the Force, how to hear it sing within others, within the life around Dantooine. You taught us the ways of combat, how to hear music within the movements of a lightsaber blade. You taught us how to move within the Force, and see it flow within others. How to see it in the behaviors of others, and use that sight to achieve truth. It is difficult to explain the difference between you and Master Vrook, but I think it is because he was knowledgeable, but not a leader, not a mentor. You were different - we could all feel it. {A little quiet, baring his soul}And I knew that if I were to have a Master, I would want it to be you. And then you went to war. Many Jedi went to war, and the Jedi Masters proclaimed that you were Jedi no longer. Atris, the mistress of the archives, was first among them. I knew at that moment, that if you would no longer be a Jedi, then you must be correct. I realized I did not want to be a Jedi - instead, I wished to follow your path. And in any event, there was no one to train me, even if I wished it. They all went to war, as I grew past the age of acceptance.It is possible to forget the Force, you know - if you not have felt it strongly enough, then there is little to miss. But I never felt the Force as strongly as I did when I was with you.And so I decided to serve the Republic, study the Jedi teachings, gather them, perhaps. It was important to me to understand the Jedi now that they were gone.I felt some part of you should be preserved, so that your lessons would not be lost."

Now, given that Mical will follow only a female exile and not a male, all this rings wrong, because it's obvious that he is attracted to the female exile. That puts his "admiration" for the exile as a leader and teacher in a highly suspicious light whether he is aware of it or not. Besides, if this is how he feels for the female exile alone, then the she should be the last person in the universe to teach him the ways of the force, since his emotions are clearly in his way - the masters would and should never have allowed it. He is a love-sick little puppy who is out of his depth, and according jedi rules that could lead nowhere positive. For someone who holds so true to the jedi code as Mical does, it is frankly sickening that he doesn't see this himself. A male exile could teach him, because there are no emotions. But a female exile? No way!


Brianna: This is where I believe TSL lost out more. I personally believe Brianna follows the Exile regardless of Gender, but gets closer to the male than female. She would be a great character to bring the Exile to a better understanding of personal strength and will of mind regardless of Gender.

I don't see how Brianna will follow a female exile unless the cut scene is restored where Atris orders her to do so. She has a very low opinion of the exile, but is attracted to the male exile. Though she is a love interest in the game, I don't think she is a healty one because she sees her father in the male exile, which is not a good thing. Regardless, her "Cinderella"-position beneath her sisters, her growth as a character, and her eventual triumphant return where she bests her sisters and confronts Atris for the male exile's affections is a powerful plot. So even though I don't think there can ever be any lasting relationship between her and the male exile, because she will always be looking for her lost father there, I do think it adds up to a powerful arc that helps the overall story and game. That it is axed by canon is frankly a crime :mad:


Sion: The fact the Exile, as a female, has so much affect on him and eventually redeems him is so incredibly Star Wars I can barely express it. In the Telos Restoration Mod Sion gets more dialog and options to help the Exile that were not there previously that give the feel this was how it was supposed to be... to me anyway.

The exile-Sion love relationship is sickening. It has no basis in anything and comes straight out of the blue. If there had at least been an explanation, like if Sion turns out to be someone the exile had a close relationship with in the past (like the male exile and Atris), then it would at least have made some semblance of sense. As it is now, it looks tacked on - thrown in at the last second to balance the male exile/Atris-bit. But it's just very, very, very, exceedingly pathetic plot as it is now. Even for the canonic female exile it should be axed for that reason alone!

Gargoyle King
06-02-2007, 06:53 AM
Wow! You guys sure have a lot to say about the subject!
Revan is still Revan, and always will be Revan - Does it really matter to anyone what the gender of Revan is? (although i thought being a Female Revan was way cooler).

Rockstar
06-02-2007, 06:53 AM
The game shows completely that either gender could be canon, and later Star Wars states that Palpatine altered the archives of the galaxy to his liking, so it's hard to be sure something like gender could not have been changed in the long run.

I am usually a respecting person of people's opinions but... that is the stupidest thing I have ever heard!

PALPATINE: *changing Revan's gender in the archives* "Muhahaha the Republic wont know what hit them! Muhahaha. With Revan now a women, I will rule the galaxy!!! Muhahahaha!!

Why!? There is nothing to gain, Revan would be long dead. Just suck it in and face the facts! The only reason you have the other choices is because RPG's are now more open ended in terms of game play and open endedness. Revan WAS a male lightside human Jedi.... actually... maybe he was a Twi'lek? :P

All the game makers meant was "This is what it's supposed to be, but the way you play your game is up to you." :)



In regards to her romance, Bastilla's connection and dialogue with you, i felt was good. When the romance goes on hold till you face Malek in your first confrontation, she was simply unable to talk about it further as she was seriously considering betraying her every belief for love. The ONLY vice of the romance (which i thought was brilliant: two Jedi together, one with a dark past and she falls for him dispite knowing what he once was) to me was there was no conclusion. They should have added in one extra scene after the defeat of Darth Malek as the only scene afterwards is a PUBLIC ceremony.

Your love turns her back from the dark side, making her unable to strike you down... How is that not cool?

Melly
06-02-2007, 02:41 PM
Ugh, not this bloody topic again. Why can't people just except that some people see Revan/Exile as male and some see them as female? And let it be?

:mob:

I am usually a respecting person of people's opinions but... that is the stupidest thing I have ever heard!

PALPATINE: *changing Revan's gender in the archives* "Muhahaha the Republic wont know what hit them! Muhahaha. With Revan now a women, I will rule the galaxy!!! Muhahahaha!!

Why!? There is nothing to gain, Revan would be long dead. Just suck it in and face the facts! The only reason you have the other choices is because RPG's are now more open ended in terms of game play and open endedness. Revan WAS a male lightside human Jedi.... actually... maybe he was a Twi'lek? :P


:rolleyes: What True_Avery meant, I'm sure, was that Palps deleted all information of Jedi from the galactic archive. Information about Nomi Sunrider, the Qel-Dromas, Revan, Bastila, Malak, Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon, and any information about the ways of the Jedi and Jedi lore (this is why Tionne was so useful to Luke). So any information about Revan would be gone possibly including who his/her master was, and what race and gender Revan was.

Darth Kalverys
06-02-2007, 03:37 PM
I can't believe this hs aroused this much debate... I mean seriously who cares? Just play with who you want to play with, whatever gender you want to play with... my first response was just because that's what Obsidian and Bioware said. Why does it even matter?

Jediphile
06-02-2007, 03:44 PM
Why does it even matter?

It matters because the incarnation of Revan or exile we see outside the games in novels and comic books will be the canonic one, and none of us want to see the "wrong" Revan or exile there. For example, both Revan and exile will be important in the KotOR comic book if it runs long enough. Heck, I think we've actually seen Revan already, though his/her gender was obscured.

True_Avery
06-02-2007, 07:44 PM
I am usually a respecting person of people's opinions but... that is the stupidest thing I have ever heard!

PALPATINE: *changing Revan's gender in the archives* "Muhahaha the Republic wont know what hit them! Muhahaha. With Revan now a women, I will rule the galaxy!!! Muhahahaha!!

Why!? There is nothing to gain, Revan would be long dead. Just suck it in and face the facts! The only reason you have the other choices is because RPG's are now more open ended in terms of game play and open endedness. Revan WAS a male lightside human Jedi.... actually... maybe he was a Twi'lek? :P

All the game makers meant was "This is what it's supposed to be, but the way you play your game is up to you." :)
I'm glad to know my comments can be debated in a respectable and mature way. I'm also glad that you forced your opinion down my throat, makes you that much more likable.

What True_Avery meant, I'm sure, was that Palps deleted all information of Jedi from the galactic archive. Information about Nomi Sunrider, the Qel-Dromas, Revan, Bastila, Malak, Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon, and any information about the ways of the Jedi and Jedi lore (this is why Tionne was so useful to Luke). So any information about Revan would be gone possibly including who his/her master was, and what race and gender Revan was.
Thank you for clearing that up.

This topic can't go anywhere but further into the garbage. Lets just drop it and let opinions be opinions. The fact of the matter is not a single one of us will agree with the other because each and every single one of us played our characters different and believe that is how it should have been played.

stoffe
06-02-2007, 08:05 PM
Mod note: Things are starting to get a bit heated here. Please keep this respectful, everyone. You may state your opinion and why you feel like that, but refrain from trying to shove it down the throat of others, use "but Important Person X says this is how you should play!" arguments or belittle those who feel differently.

There is no "correct" way to play the game or build the protagonists, no one way it's "meant to be played", otherwise they would not have bothered to give the players the choice to pick gender or light/dark alignment.

Rockstar
06-02-2007, 09:10 PM
I'm glad to know my comments can be debated in a respectable and mature way. I'm also glad that you forced your opinion down my throat, makes you that much more likable.


I would like to actually apologise for being so forceful with my opinion. That was unfair to bash you like that and you took it well. The moderator's comment did not prompt me to say this in any way, it was actually your response. Sorry i went a bit too far there. *shakes hand*

While i still stand by the fact that while game play is up to the player's disgression and that Revan is a male human, I should not have gone about it a different way.

Good on ya for taking it like an adult :)

True_Avery
06-02-2007, 10:04 PM
I would like to actually apologise for being so forceful with my opinion. That was unfair to bash you like that and you took it well. The moderator's comment did not prompt me to say this in any way, it was actually your response. Sorry i went a bit too far there. *shakes hand*

While i still stand by the fact that while game play is up to the player's disgression and that Revan is a male human, I should not have gone about it a different way.

Good on ya for taking it like an adult :)
Thanks for Apologizing, no hard feelings ^.^

Lord Spitfire
06-03-2007, 03:54 AM
That makes no sense to me. I've always felt the exile should be male for two reasons.

The first is due to love interests. The male exile caused or was at least a factor in Atris' fall to the dark side due to her feelings for him. It makes sense that she loves the male exile, which is a major plot point, which is weaker for the female exile. Instead the female exile has Sion's love, which makes no sense whatsoever and comes straight out of the blue. Then there is the relationship to handmaiden and disciple, but we'll get to that.

The other reason is due to the exile's nature. In short, the exile is pretty pathetic. I mean, this person has been in utter denial about what really happened at Malachor V and is responsible for the destruction Nihilus has wrought as a result, according to the jedi masters. This is a person with some pretty severe psychological problems. And so it turns out, of course, that canon dictates it must be a woman... I don't like the implications that lie in that statement. And so I think it would be more fitting for it to be a man.



I don't know if I agree Mical works better for females. I mean, take a look at some of the things he says:

"I met you on Dantooine, long ago, briefly. You taught us the ways of the Force, how to hear it sing within others, within the life around Dantooine. You taught us the ways of combat, how to hear music within the movements of a lightsaber blade. You taught us how to move within the Force, and see it flow within others. How to see it in the behaviors of others, and use that sight to achieve truth. It is difficult to explain the difference between you and Master Vrook, but I think it is because he was knowledgeable, but not a leader, not a mentor. You were different - we could all feel it. {A little quiet, baring his soul}And I knew that if I were to have a Master, I would want it to be you. And then you went to war. Many Jedi went to war, and the Jedi Masters proclaimed that you were Jedi no longer. Atris, the mistress of the archives, was first among them. I knew at that moment, that if you would no longer be a Jedi, then you must be correct. I realized I did not want to be a Jedi - instead, I wished to follow your path. And in any event, there was no one to train me, even if I wished it. They all went to war, as I grew past the age of acceptance.It is possible to forget the Force, you know - if you not have felt it strongly enough, then there is little to miss. But I never felt the Force as strongly as I did when I was with you.And so I decided to serve the Republic, study the Jedi teachings, gather them, perhaps. It was important to me to understand the Jedi now that they were gone.I felt some part of you should be preserved, so that your lessons would not be lost."

Now, given that Mical will follow only a female exile and not a male, all this rings wrong, because it's obvious that he is attracted to the female exile. That puts his "admiration" for the exile as a leader and teacher in a highly suspicious light whether he is aware of it or not. Besides, if this is how he feels for the female exile alone, then the she should be the last person in the universe to teach him the ways of the force, since his emotions are clearly in his way - the masters would and should never have allowed it. He is a love-sick little puppy who is out of his depth, and according jedi rules that could lead nowhere positive. For someone who holds so true to the jedi code as Mical does, it is frankly sickening that he doesn't see this himself. A male exile could teach him, because there are no emotions. But a female exile? No way!



I don't see how Brianna will follow a female exile unless the cut scene is restored where Atris orders her to do so. She has a very low opinion of the exile, but is attracted to the male exile. Though she is a love interest in the game, I don't think she is a healty one because she sees her father in the male exile, which is not a good thing. Regardless, her "Cinderella"-position beneath her sisters, her growth as a character, and her eventual triumphant return where she bests her sisters and confronts Atris for the male exile's affections is a powerful plot. So even though I don't think there can ever be any lasting relationship between her and the male exile, because she will always be looking for her lost father there, I do think it adds up to a powerful arc that helps the overall story and game. That it is axed by canon is frankly a crime :mad:



The exile-Sion love relationship is sickening. It has no basis in anything and comes straight out of the blue. If there had at least been an explanation, like if Sion turns out to be someone the exile had a close relationship with in the past (like the male exile and Atris), then it would at least have made some semblance of sense. As it is now, it looks tacked on - thrown in at the last second to balance the male exile/Atris-bit. But it's just very, very, very, exceedingly pathetic plot as it is now. Even for the canonic female exile it should be axed for that reason alone!

You know, I always thought that Revan and Exile should be male, and after reading your reasons, I now know why. ;)

The only part of that which I disagree with is that Brianna had a low view of the Exile. This is untrue, as Brianna herself says: "I do not believe that you are the monster that Atris has made you out to be," the first time I talked to her on the Ebon Hawk. She still believed in the Exile. Just with Male Exile, THEN she started getting all goggly-eyed.

So, I think that regardless of male and female, both Handmaiden and Disciple are in the party(take out that GO-TO psycho). Oh, how i wish so badly I had it on PC. I heard there was a mod . . . sniff, sniff . . .

I agree on all of the points you made except that. The reason Obsidian created Canon female was because they were scared that people were going to start calling them sexist for making both Revan and Exile male. If they wanted to have female work, change da plot mon'!

But I would classify Exile as "pathetic." I might be slightly hypocritical in this, but have you ever felt the lives of thousands so well connected to you ripped off, and having the currents of the galaxy sucked from you? Besides, the Exile DID talk about it, but he just didn't want to.

There was actually a slight reference to the Mass Shadow Generator.

After Visas said how Nihilus destroyed her homeworld, you can say: "I have seen similar acts of mass destruction {pause} at Malachor."

Saber-Scorpion
06-03-2007, 04:05 AM
i all ways plays as lightside casue i think it's so much easier to be a lightside and i always choose the lightside because in most movies and games it always end with the lightside wins now i'm not meaning that the darkside always loose but i rather help people then destroy them and i always plays as a male i know it's not canon for tsl but i can't play as a female not anything bad about them but i just like being male

Diego Varen
06-03-2007, 04:49 AM
So, I think that regardless of male and female, both Handmaiden and Disciple are in the party(take out that GO-TO psycho). Oh, how i wish so badly I had it on PC. I heard there was a mod . . . sniff, sniff . . .

I always wanted that. GO-TO's character would have been better if he had stayed on Nar Shaddaa, perhaps still trying to send bounty hunters after you. Besides HK and T3, I wouldn't want more than two droids. Both Handmaiden and Disciple are important to the game, but Handmaiden has a slight tad more importance, due to Atris.

Emperor Devon
06-03-2007, 05:29 AM
GO-TO's character would have been better if he had stayed on Nar Shaddaa, perhaps still trying to send bounty hunters after you.

Perish the thought! If he stayed on Nar Shaddaa it would've been impossible to find out his past or talk to him about it.

Goto's character IMO was very interesting. An extraordinarily intelligent droid who was created to protect the Republic, and through his intelligence realized he could only protect it working against everything it stood for - very ironic. Another bonus is how he's not even Force-sensitive. It was a nice change to have an interesting character (and a droid at that) who could a critical role in protecting the galaxy, and lying and manipulating the PC. He's kind of like Kreia in a lot of respects.

It would've been impossible to find all that out if he'd stayed on Nar Shaddaa. IMO listening to him talk about his past is much more interesting than it would've been for him to order more bounty hunters to kill you (which would've had no connection to the main plot at all).

Vaelastraz
06-03-2007, 06:32 AM
Goto's character IMO was very interesting. An extraordinarily intelligent droid who was created to protect the Republic, and through his intelligence realized he could only protect it working against everything it stood for - very ironic. A

QFE!

The basic concept of GOTO is very creative. It's too bad his final impact on the game (at Malachor..) got cut out. More interaction with Goto and more quests concerning him and his operations would have been nice.
But still, sometimes Obsidian just did a brilliant job, think about all that evidence you found that suggests Goto controls everything on Nar Shadda.

Jediphile
06-03-2007, 07:31 AM
Goto's character IMO was very interesting. An extraordinarily intelligent droid who was created to protect the Republic, and through his intelligence realized he could only protect it working against everything it stood for - very ironic. Another bonus is how he's not even Force-sensitive. It was a nice change to have an interesting character (and a droid at that) who could a critical role in protecting the galaxy, and lying and manipulating the PC. He's kind of like Kreia in a lot of respects.

Like Kreia, lots of people really hate GOTO. I guess it's because they are both highly condescending and arrogant individuals, at least in how they interact with other people. Some hate Kreia because she is so manipulative and how she uses the exile, and some hate GOTO because he is arrogant in the extreme and serves no useful purpose in combat, whereas Kreia does.

To me, however, they are both interesting characters. GOTO actually have some very interesting things to reveal, and though he is clearly a terrible person (droid) with utter disregard for life, he is still a highly interesting character. His greatest problem is that he is also completely useless as an active character in the group except in a few specific places in the game. But he reminds me of HAL in 2001, which is probably where the inspiration came from. That big red eye is a dead giveaway. And like HAL, he has gone on a murderous spree because of conflicting directives in his programming. In and off itself that is interesting, and I think the voice-acting for GOTO is brilliant - you have to hear him say only a few sentences to really not like him very much. For someone you're supposed to dislike, the execution is perfect in both dialogue, delivery, tone and the cold aggression or hatred that is expressed. Excellent voice-acting by Daran Norris.

mjpb3
06-03-2007, 11:36 AM
The fact of the matter is not a single one of us will agree with the other because each and every single one of us played our characters different and believe that is how it should have been played.
I absolutely and wholeheartedly agree with this. I've debated, ranted, discussed and argued this topic until I am sickened by the whole thing, really. The honest truth is that no matter what reason someone else gives me for their own personal choice, and no reason that any Lucas employee can give me, or whatever else is written, said, or otherwise, Revan and Exile will always be LSF for me, and there's nothing whatsoever at all that will change my mind. That's not to say that anyone else is wrong in their personal gender choice for Revan or Exile, just that my choice is, was, and always will be LSF for both. There's no argument at all for me. That's just the way I perceive both Revan and Exile, and as long as I am able to character create the both of them, that is how they will always be for me.

No matter what the so called "canon" of Revan or Exile is, as long as the game(s) have a character creation then it is entirely your choice, and mine, as to whether Revan or Exile are male/female/LS/DS/gizka or otherwise, so this whole argument is more for arguments sake than anything really because no one person here is ever going to agree with me on how precisely I perceive either Revan or Exile. And truthfully, I don't want anyone to agree with me! They're my characters, so my perception of them is mine alone. But, I do reserve the right to perceive Revan and exile anyway I see fit. No one should ever tell me (or anyone) why my choice is wrong. My choice is no more wrong than anyone else's because it is MY choice, just as your choice is YOURS.

Ctrl Alt Del
06-03-2007, 02:57 PM
^That's a lot of phrases to say the same thing: There's no "right" gender for them.

Rockstar
06-04-2007, 06:31 AM
I prefer male DS Revan and male LS Exile... but the fact is the cannon is LSM Revan and LSF Exile... Just accept it as I have.

Still play the others like you would otherwise but if TSL were a playstation 1 game then you would only have the choice to go male Revan and female Exile, and at a pinch, be able to choose the dark path as an option.

It is the new generation RPG customisability that allows the player this choices in thier character, companions and game outcome. The fact remains that when Star Wars is such a huge universe of stories, there needs to be an achievable story, hense a LSM Revan and a LSF exile.

KOTOR3, if linking with the other 2 stories will most definately need to follow the cannon, because now the outcome possibilities have doubled again:

- Darth Revan in outter rim and Dark Exile following him
- Darth Revan in outter rim and Light Exile hunting him
- Jedi Revan in outer rim and Dark Exile hunting him
- Jedi Revan in outer rim with light exile following him

Now multiply each of these by 4 to give the gender possibilities:

MR, ME
MR, FE
FR, ME
FR, FE

That's 16 alternatives.

Now lets say KOTOR 3 is released and someone buys it before even looking at the first two... how will they know? I had to pace myself through the story of TSL without playing KOTOR1 and if Revan and the Exile are in the third game, the game developers either have the hell of a task on thier hands or will have to go with the cannons.

Vaelastraz
06-04-2007, 07:20 AM
On my first playthrough I always play male characters, because I want to identify myself with the character I play. My decisions are the decisions I would personally make if I were the character in the game.

And therefore both are LSM for me. I accept cannon though as the Exile is a somewhat poor character to me.

Talwin
06-04-2007, 02:24 PM
The female Revan dialog and plot was far more interesting and I found it consuiderably more fun as compared to playing as male. I was little disappointed to find out that they canonized Revan as a male.

In TSL, I think it's really all about Handmaiden vs. Disciple characters. I always found Disciple fake - especially after you see his spy report. Handmaiden, on the other hand, has a very interesting story and she adds neat little perks to the character. I liked playing male Exile much more than female, and once again was disappointed that they canonized it as female.

Titanius Anglesmith
06-04-2007, 02:57 PM
I don't really care what canon says. I always think of both Revan and the Exile as male. Everything just makes more sense that way, from their personality traits to their romantic affiliations. Especially with the Exile; I just cringe every time I hear someone mention the thing Sion has for a female Exile.

Marauder's Fury
06-04-2007, 03:55 PM
I fancy Revan as male and Exile as female, based on their respective stories. However, I like to play with a female Revan and a male Exile. That being said, LucasArts decided Revan to be male and Exile to be female, and this is all that matters. They could announce a female Revan and a male Exile as canon and we would still be busy rubbing each other's ear here. That's the problem with RPGs. Does anyone question Kyle Katarn's gender? He's male, completely and utterly. No confusion, no bickering. Very smart move, if you ask me. :D Well... to think, I hope nobody starts an argument about Jacen's gender, too. I should go check the Jedi Knight forum to be sure.

Gargoyle King
06-04-2007, 04:01 PM
Does anyone question Kyle Katarn's gender? He's male, completely and utterly. No confusion, no bickering. Very smart move, if you ask me. :D

The JK series is far better in my opinion than KOTOR anyway - they just don't seem to get boring - even Dark Forces!

Well... to think, I hope nobody starts an argument about Jacen's gender, too

Or Species! :lol:

JediRevan
06-04-2007, 04:05 PM
With all the pc mods for KOTOR and KOTOR2, I'm really surprised no one has started a debate concerning Revan or Exile's species.

stoffe
06-04-2007, 05:18 PM
Does anyone question Kyle Katarn's gender? He's male, completely and utterly. No confusion, no bickering. Very smart move, if you ask me. :D

Which is why I liked Jaden Korr/Jedi Academy better. :D If you are allowed some measure of customization it's easier to connect with the character. Though it's somewhat more forgivable in a shooter game like Jedi Outcast/Academy since the story isn't quite as important there as in an RPG. (Though you could change Kyle in Jedi Outcast via mods.) :p

Unless you have a very compelling reason to lock the player to a single pre-determined protagonist it's usually better to offer a choice, IMO. Being given the choice can be a strong selling point of the game, in particular if the player has come to expect being able to shape their character to some extent.

(For example, I refused to buy ST:Elite Force II even though I liked the original because they did just that, limited the player into one role by not giving you the choice to continue playing as Alexandria Munro if you wanted, you were shoehorned into the role of Alexander Munro regardless of how you played ST:EFOR1. What they provided didn't match the view of the character I had formed from the previous game, so I lost interest in continuing to play the series.)

Jediphile
06-04-2007, 05:36 PM
KOTOR3, if linking with the other 2 stories will most definately need to follow the cannon, because now the outcome possibilities have doubled again:

- Darth Revan in outter rim and Dark Exile following him
- Darth Revan in outter rim and Light Exile hunting him
- Jedi Revan in outer rim and Dark Exile hunting him
- Jedi Revan in outer rim with light exile following him

Now multiply each of these by 4 to give the gender possibilities:

MR, ME
MR, FE
FR, ME
FR, FE

That's 16 alternatives.

Nonsense. There is no reason why all of these options cannot be addressed somehow in KotOR. None.

And since Revan's gender and alignment is optional in TSL, it will seem incredibly biased and hypocritical if the player's option is not respected in the next game as well. If Revan's gender and alignment had been fixed in TSL it would have been different, but there are not. And that has consequences.

Now lets say KOTOR 3 is released and someone buys it before even looking at the first two... how will they know? I had to pace myself through the story of TSL without playing KOTOR1 and if Revan and the Exile are in the third game, the game developers either have the hell of a task on thier hands or will have to go with the cannons.

Did not knowing anything about Revan stop you from playing TSL? No, it didn't. You can skip the entire conversation with Atton where Revan's alignment and gender is set and the game still won't explode in your face or anything. There is no reason why the same principle can't apply to the next game.

Saber-Scorpion
06-04-2007, 05:39 PM
yeah the Revan and exile thing i never played canon cause it doesn't matter what game i play i'm always male if possible well the reason is if i play as a male i feel like it's myself going there and helping people so Revan=LSM for me and the Exile=LSM also and another reason is that i can't come up with any good female names like other here so my Revan= Jacen Skywalker for me it feels right with that name for me and the Exile=Dace Katarn same thing it feels good when i use it and i played both games both Lightside and darkside and the light always feels right for me so that's it




Mod note: There should be a button with a period symbol printed on it on your keyboard. Please use it, your posts are very hard to read otherwise. :) ~M

Marauder's Fury
06-04-2007, 06:06 PM
Or Species! :lol:Darn good point. :lol:

See what I mean. Would be kinda stupid to make a RPG, try to fit it in the canon history and expect to please everyone. With sixteen possibilities, I'm pretty sure the story of KotOR III will be a huge disappointment in that regard. Unless they use canon, which would be an even bigger disappointment for most. If they make it at all, that is.

Whatever you chose for canon, you'd piss off like 3/4 of the community. Sad that the SW universe is a perfectly suitable one for RPGs, but like all universes, its 'historical' aspect denies a satisfactory integration. All that's left for us to do is grin and bear it, I guess. My Revan is female, canon Revan is female, end of story. (No, no, my Revan is 100 percent male, but you get the point.)

SilentScope001
06-04-2007, 10:22 PM
See what I mean. Would be kinda stupid to make a RPG, try to fit it in the canon history and expect to please everyone. With sixteen possibilities, I'm pretty sure the story of KotOR III will be a huge disappointment in that regard. Unless they use canon, which would be an even bigger disappointment for most. If they make it at all, that is.

Well, actually...it can't. The whole story isn't focused on Revan and Exile, they are just supporting characters. The story is focused on the True Sith who will likely be the same, regardless of alignment and gender of Revan and Exile.

The only thing that is changing is this:

Revan=
-Carth is military general/Carth is dead
-Bastila is Sith/Bastila is Jedi/Bastila is dead

Exile=
-LS Jedi Order Formed/DS Jedi (or Sith) Order Formed

Really, that's all. The core of the story is always the Third Character...and the True Sith. The True Sith, the actual enemy of K3, will be set in stone, and won't change an iota between playthroughs.

JawaJoey
06-05-2007, 03:35 AM
KOTOR3, if linking with the other 2 stories will most definately need to follow the cannon, because now the outcome possibilities have doubled again:

- Darth Revan in outter rim and Dark Exile following him
- Darth Revan in outter rim and Light Exile hunting him
- Jedi Revan in outer rim and Dark Exile hunting him
- Jedi Revan in outer rim with light exile following him

Now multiply each of these by 4 to give the gender possibilities:

MR, ME
MR, FE
FR, ME
FR, FE

That's 16 alternatives.

Now lets say KOTOR 3 is released and someone buys it before even looking at the first two... how will they know? I had to pace myself through the story of TSL without playing KOTOR1 and if Revan and the Exile are in the third game, the game developers either have the hell of a task on thier hands or will have to go with the cannons.

It's not even that complicated. In KOTOR 2, it's said that Revan remembered something horrible, the "True Sith," which is what caused Revan to be DS originally. DS or LS, he didn't really fall, he just accepted the Dark Side in order to save the galaxy. The point is, Revan is a good guy who looks bad, and his alignment in K1 is almost entirely irrelevant to the overall story. K2 made it that way.

Dark Exile would have no reason to hunt Revan. Light Exile would probably want to follow Revan, because Revan is really light no matter what. So that's two options, not a billion. And gender amounts to boolean pronoun switching in a fraction of the game dialog.

Marauder's Fury
06-05-2007, 04:02 AM
Well, actually...it can't. The whole story isn't focused on Revan and Exile, they are just supporting characters. The story is focused on the True Sith who will likely be the same, regardless of alignment and gender of Revan and Exile. [...] The core of the story is always the Third Character...and the True Sith. The True Sith, the actual enemy of K3, will be set in stone, and won't change an iota between playthroughs.Are you "sure" of what you're saying? Any sort of guarantee? I, for one, have no clue how important Revan and Exile will be in KotOR III plot. Those "supporting" characters, as you put it, may very well be major villains of the game. Or party members, even. Who's to say? Assuming the game will ever be made, I mean.

Lord Spitfire
06-05-2007, 04:20 AM
Just because a female Revan has more dialogue options, what the hell? It makes it more likely to be female? Nonsense. Male Revan has a more deep storyline and the romance with Bastila - well, it might not be as interesting, but it is most certainly more romantic.

Carth and Revan romance: Interesting, not romantic. I liked the ideaof having a war veteran, wife dead, homewolrd dead, son joining his sworn enemy, coming together with a Republic Soldier, former Sith Lord, but, meh. It's not romantic. It isn't even forbidden love. Carth is a Republic soldier, he can fall in love, and from what we've heard, light or dark, Revan doesn't give a damn about "There is no emotion, there is peace," nonsense. It is overall badly executed, though nice idea. Badly paced. They've already created a shallow but ingrained effect of Carths wife's death, so why don't you build around that and have Revan as a male and Carth learn through his revenge, instead of having a story of a love-life all over?


Bastila and Revan: Much more romantic, and still interesting, though maybe not as much as Carth's. Here we have a young woman in her early-mid twenties, brought up in a shaky family, and grown up with the strict rules and the narrow view of the Jedi Code. She is against love, though deep within she knows that it's right. And here we have a Republic Recruit in around his mid-late twenties, who rescues her from a gang(though I agree this is a bit cheesy). She knows he is the Dark Lord, and she is afraid of him. Though through their adventures, she begins to gain a degree of trust and compassionfor him, and her dislike for him is twisted into guilt, guilt for making him live a lie. Then, when she is captured after her identity is revealedm, her conflicts cause her to fall, forcing her to be saved by the one whom she loved, with love saving her in the end.

Corinthian
06-05-2007, 05:56 AM
Canon? It's LSM Revan, LSF Exile. In my mind, though, LSM for both fits the best. Frankly, I don't see Exile as being a woman. It's not a big deal, but the game seems to be more fitting for a man than a woman, especially what with the whole Malachor V thing. It seems more fitting for a man than a woman. However, that's a fairly minor issue, I'm not going to debate something this minor.

PoiuyWired
06-07-2007, 12:26 AM
Actually, just give Exile Nihilus's Mask, that would simplify things. Now you have two masked character, where Gender may not matter, as lonk as they do not have vocal speach. The DS/LS choice would be easier too. It boiles down to:

Both LS working together.
Both DS helping each other, fighting each other.
Obbosing LS/DS and war. (where you need only 1 LS fraction one DS Fraction, and swap Revan/Exile as necessary)

As for old chracter, many of them are either a bit old, possably dead due to(possable) storyline, or have little to do with storyline due to choices(like Brianna and stalker mike)

Personally I think other than HK, T3 there should be new party members only. Mandalore might be allowed, but hopefully not as party members. If everything goes well he would be quite important, and too high level to travel with "n00bs"

JawaJoey
06-07-2007, 04:27 AM
Oh god no, not the stupid Nihilus mask! One game with that stupid ugly thing was enough, I don't want a character I like spoiled forever by that hideous moron mask.

ThoraxeRMG
06-07-2007, 05:44 AM
I find canon the strongest and the majority of the time, I will always follow canon. I don't mind a male Exile though, but I dislike a female Revan, since for me it doesn't feel right.

What you said.

Titanius Anglesmith
06-07-2007, 12:35 PM
Oh god no, not the stupid Nihilus mask! One game with that stupid ugly thing was enough, I don't want a character I like spoiled forever by that hideous moron mask.
I think that would actually be a very good plot device. If you think about, if the Exile goes on like he his, he will become another Nihilus, and he'll most likely need something to cover his face. Is there a particular reason you don't like the mask? I happen to think it's pretty cool.

Rockstar
06-07-2007, 11:06 PM
What you said.

what he said... said... um.. yeah

i agree

Allronix
06-08-2007, 12:02 AM
Agreed. Go-to would be most excellent as a major npc the Exile has to work with ot against, but he is pretty useless as a party member. HK and T3 can pretty much do anything he can.

XenoGenesis
06-08-2007, 01:49 AM
Difference is a welcome, especially when you are playing RPG. Is it not?

In my case, I played LSM Revan and LSF Exile. And I have to admit that when I later
heard about this "canonical" gender thing, I was shocked. Not because my selection
matched it; wasn't the game given an open choice to satisfy any player?

Secondary materials, like comics and novels may need a clear gender reference. But
why for players who were able to choose either way? Even if you enjoy those books,
it's your call.