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Rockstar
06-02-2007, 06:24 AM
This is my review of KOTOR2 based on my game experience. Please read on as my experience is likely different from many of yours in the order i played the games.

I purchased KOTOR2 without ever playing KOTOR and let me tell you: I thought it was f'ing awesome. I love D&D style games and star wars. This game delivered them both! When the game was coming to the later stages (post Darth Nihilus) I felt the plot being wrapped up too quickly. I came to the end of the game and the final credits and my jaw dropped as if to say. "Your f'ing kidding me right!? This great game and the last few hours of play were the biggest anti-climax in my life! So many questions unanswered?!" and so on...

The TSLRP will likely fix much of this.

My journey goes on when only a few months ago I saw KOTOR for $20 AUS and thought, "what the hey."

I put it in and I could hardly believe how brilliant it was! Two years behind the previous game and the plot seemed to move faster, graphics were dated only the slightest and it seemed to have EVERY SINGLE thing that made KOTOR2 blow me away the first time. My heart sank as my respect for KOTOR2 just plummeted. There was almost nothing new in TSL!

Nearly every concept was rehashed and nothing was built on!


PC's SHIP:
-KOTOR: the Ebon Hawk (first game where you get your own ship and crew :))
-TSL: ... the Ebon Hawk... again... i know that the Exile and Revan were linked, but having the same ship again really seems to give the vibe of lazyness over following in Revan's footsteps.


NPC's
-KOTOR: Bastilla and Carth were awesome. Juant was cool as well. No faults here. Romances were well enough wrapped up.
-TSL: This is the one area where you could say there was an improvement. Kreia, Atton Rand, Handmaiden, Visas. All wicked characters with tons of dialogue. Multiple romances BUT they didn't wrap up at all...



FORCE BONDS:
-KOTOR: You have a force bond with your instructor, who falls to the dark side
-TSL: You have a force bond with your instructor, who is secretly a Sith Lord *cough* secret... yeah...


STORY TWIST:
-KOTOR: you ARE Darth Revan... whoa! If you say you saw that coming from the word go I will boldly call you a liar.
-TSL: Kreia is evil... I know calm down everybody! I know you didn't expect that with the way she is dressed so evilly and seems to contradict the Jedi Code at every point... But yes, I'm affraid it is true. She is a Sithlord. If you didn't see yourself fighting her at the the end within your first hour of play you have problems lol.


STORY
-KOTOR: going round the galaxy to retrace the steps of a Sithlord (yourself) as the only possible means to save the fate of the galaxy of his surpasser? Sound game enough to me! Well timed turns in events like the first confrontation with Malek, Bastilla's turning and redemption and a great build up to the final battle.
-TSL: I agree with what many people have said. You seem to run around the galaxy finding Jedi for hours on end (which all die after one minute of dialogue, just to make you feel as if you've wasted your time even more) and then in the space of two hours of play, all 3 Sithlords are wrapped up and killed, in what i call the biggest anti-climax in gaming history.


PC MODELS:
KOTOR: all playable characters looked very cool... but the absense of robes didn't give that Jedi/Sith satisfaction...
TSL: these were on par with the original but the robes ROCKED!



NPC MODELS AND SOUNDS
-KOTOR: all the NPC's and sounds that filled the cities were created/encorperated for this game.
-TSL: the character models for sith soldiers, twi'leks, etc are ALL THE SAME! I think KOTOR actually had MORE NPC types than TSL? including sand people, etc. Feels like a cut and paste job...



CITY MAPS:
-KOTOR: every city here was different in its own way and had a different vibe
-TSL: The cities were cool, However, many of the plannets were used in the first game...



OTHER MAPS:
- KOTOR: smaller and to the point with less aimless running around
- TSL: larger with more XP, but i felt often too much time was spent in areas just hacking and slashing...


BAD GUYS:
KOTOR: Darth Malek is cool and does more than his job. Big thumbs up here
TSL: The Sithlords were awesome, but they made little use of the front man (Darth Nihilus) and many were disappointed that the focus was on Sion. However, the bad guys were very good, but did not live up the title "the sith lords" due to the lack of coverage and interaction with them... great characters used poorly IMO


ENDING:
- KOTOR: shows the PC celebrating with the Republic or taking the reins of the Sith. Both satisfactory.
- TSL: shows a ship flying into the Outter Rim with the player wondering what a wound in the force is...





MY CONCLUSION:
Kinda looks like they got the stencil of KOTOR's game engine and models, used many key concepts and wacked together, what looked like a giant mod. Cool game once the RP comes out, but really should have blown the original out of the water when it really just came off as an unfinished cheap immitation

Arátoeldar
06-02-2007, 12:47 PM
I take it then that you think that "The Empire Strikes Back" is a pale imitation of "A New Hope"?

Jediphile
06-02-2007, 02:31 PM
Pale imitation?!?

Which game uses the scissors heftily to blantantly "imitate" the original trilogy (except for an incredibly cheesy villain) and which game tries to tell a story that has unique aspects in Star Wars and with some of the strongest characters in all of Star Wars?

Sure, TSL has lots of problems. But to call it a pale imitation is completely out of proportions IMHO.

Titanius Anglesmith
06-02-2007, 02:58 PM
I couldn't disagree with you more. TSL did something that no other Star Wars story had done before. It gave us a unique plot and unique characters, and it wasn't the same old cheesy, black/white storyline. As has been said countless times before, KotOR is a blatant, straight up copy of the Original Trilogy, and TSL is completely different than anything we've seen before.

About the plot twists, I must point out that the twist in TSL wasn't that Kreia was a Sith Lord (btw, it wasn't hard to figure out eventually, but just because I didn't know who I was going to fight at the end while I was just leaving the Peragus Mining Tunnels doesn't mean I have problems), but it was the revelation of her intentions. IMHO, that more surprising than finding out I was Revan, which really wasn't that hard to figure out. I admit, I didn't see it coming the first time I played either, but then again, I was 12 and I didn't give a crap about the plot. When I look back on it, and I see the lame hints throughout the game, it seems painfully obvious who you are. The number of hints they put in is almost laughable.

What I don't understand, is that you complained about how everything was wrapped up to quickly in TSL, yet you praised KotOR for having a "faster-moving" plot.

stoffe
06-02-2007, 06:01 PM
I purchased KOTOR2 without ever playing KOTOR and let me tell you: I thought it was f'ing awesome.
(snip)
My journey goes on when only a few months ago I saw KOTOR for $20 AUS and thought, "what the hey."

I put it in and I could hardly believe how brilliant it was! Two years behind the previous game and the plot seemed to move faster, graphics were dated only the slightest and it seemed to have EVERY SINGLE thing that made KOTOR2 blow me away the first time. My heart sank as my respect for KOTOR2 just plummeted.

So in short you no longer like a game you thought was awesome just because you played another game you thought was better? :confused:

As for the rest, why throw away a winning concept just for the heck of it? If it's supposed to be a trilogy (I hope) of games it's hardly surprising that there will be a lot of things that are similar, or that the different games take place partially on the same worlds. It builds recognition and a feeling continuation of the story.

I don't quite understand this general hysteria that each game released must be revolutionary and rebuilt from scratch to be worth playing. I wouldn't mind if they made 5 games using the same engine with some improvements, and re-used some game assets, as long as each game brought a new good story and interesting game play.

This is hardly unprecedented, you can find roughly the same thing with the Baldur's Gate saga made by Bioware, where BG2 uses an improved variant of the same engine BG1 does, inherits parts of the graphics and other game assets, and continues on the same overall story (though a new arc of it). Both games stand on their own in my opinion, and the making of one does not cheapen the other; rather they complement each other and both contribute to build an over-all picture of the greater story being told. I feel the same about KOTOR and TSL.

As for improvements, there were enough in TSL that I find it hard to go back and play KOTOR again since I get annoyed by the lack of all the interface and engine improvements (much the same way as I felt with BG2 vs BG1, by the way).

Emperor Devon
06-02-2007, 06:41 PM
I couldn't disagree more. My views are definitely in the minority, but I believe TSL is every bit as finished (if not moreso) than KotOR was, with a better story to boot.

Most of those points in your review are pretty irrelevant IMO. :) I really don't care how cool the robes look, how realistic the models are, or how much the graphics can dazzle me as long as the game has a good story and interesting characters. Everything else is secondary to those.

KotOR's story is good if you like traditional "good guy kills the evil overlord and gets the girl" stories, but I think it's impossible to argue that it has more depth than TSL's. In comparison:

KotOR: It's a large war with clearly established good guys and bad guys. Your PC runs around on various planets looking for clues on how to stop the bad guys. Along the way he finds out he used to be their leader, and eventually blows up a giant space station where he slays a terribly cliched evil overlord who used to be his apprentice. Amusing characters like HK and Jolee are thrown in, with a romance with Bastila on the side. The story is pretty faithful to the OT, but the only truly distinguishing quality it possesses is the plot twist.

TSL: Who is good and who is evil is a very vague matter. A Sith Lord who thinks she's saving the galaxy, Jedi who turn a blind eye to the suffering around them... It's very ambiguous morally and breaks the traditional "Jedi are shining bastions of justice, goodness and light" cliche. Atris loathes the PC and eventually is twisted into a Dark Jedi for it. The rest of the Jedi turn a blind eye to the suffering in the Mandalorian Wars, and raises the question "does the end justify the means?"

The characters have enough depth to build bunkers in. I've raved about Kreia countless times, so I'll just settle for saying that her Force-hating opinions, desire to destroy it for the good of all, ends justifies the means philosophy, history, thoughts on the Jedi and Sith, and everything else that makes her up was infinitely more interesting than Darth Malak laughing insanely while talking about ruling the galaxy. Having a villain who had good intentions and was willing to lie and trick you to achieve her goals was much better than a cheesy bad guy who orders his minions to crush you.

Anyway, I've ranted who knows how many times on this... Suffice to say TSL's story and characters have infinitely more depth and originality than KotOR's.

Rockstar
06-02-2007, 08:29 PM
KotOR's story is good if you like traditional "good guy kills the evil overlord and gets the girl" stories

Isn't that what makes star wars so lovable? lol

I think I came off the wrong way when creating this thread.

KOTOR2 definately had a better, more controversial and in depth story line thatn KOTOR, BUT did it deliver to its potential? Definately not. Lets face it, KOTOR, although a typical good guys/bad guys senario was largely enjoyable and seemed to be the best it could be.

TSL, as previously stated, had a BRILLIANT idea for a story line, but there are so many things it could have done better. It really did seem as if all the good ideas were just replicated out of the first game and they just chucked in force scream...

i am not a graphically biased person and could not care less about the game engine, it just seems that there was never a huge intention by the game developers to unleash this potential. I'm not trying to say KOTOR is a better game. I'm trying to say that TSL should have been the best star wars game EVER and it wasn't.

Darth Nihilus does next to nothing, and darn TG are refusing to add anything of use in and it seems that as soon as Nihilus falls it just turns into a hack and slash to kill Sion and Kreia and all the reasoning you used in the game to get this far matters none!

My opinion of all this will likely change with the TSLRP.

One thing the game needs, in my opinion, is a final stage in the Nihilus battle is where he status's both your party members and forces you into a final one on one dual that is actually difficult! ... can anybody do this???

Emperor Devon
06-03-2007, 04:51 AM
KOTOR2 definately had a better, more controversial and in depth story line thatn KOTOR, BUT did it deliver to its potential?Definately not.

How was that?

TSL, as previously stated, had a BRILLIANT idea for a story line, but there are so many things it could have done better.

Such as...?

It really did seem as if all the good ideas were just replicated out of the first game and they just chucked in force scream...

Can you recall any specific ones? It's whole "wound in the Force" story is pretty different from KotORs, and its best characters are nothing like the ones in there either... Doesn't seem to me like they reused much.

i am not a graphically biased person and could not care less about the game engine, it just seems that there was never a huge intention by the game developers to unleash this potential.

Yep, they were busy writing the story. Sure, they could've hired additional graphic designers... But they'd have had to slash the budget for writing.

I'm not trying to say KOTOR is a better game. I'm trying to say that TSL should have been the best star wars game EVER and it wasn't.

But how was that? I've seen you say KotOR was better and TSL never lived up to its full potential quite a few times, but I've not seen you provide any reasons why. :)

Darth Nihilus does next to nothing,

How is that? He doesn't have much screen time, but he's a pretty big part of the plot. Instances...

He conspires with Sion, and is responsible for ousting Kreia from power. Following that he becomes the largest threat to the Jedi, and drains entire planets to sate his hunger. It's also because of him Visas is even in the game. He also sends assassins to kill the PC numerous times (such as the attack on Dxun), allies with Vaklu and sets up the entire plot for Onderon, nearly destroys Telos IV, is the main reason the Jedi have even scattered and hidden themselves in the first place, and on top of it all is going to kill everything in the universe if not stopped. Pretty large role if you ask me...

and darn TG are refusing to add anything of use in

They're actually adding a cutscene with him and Tobin to better illustrate how Kreia manipulated him into attacking Telos, but apart from that what is there to add? He's already contributed a ton to the plot.

and it seems that as soon as Nihilus falls it just turns into a hack and slash to kill Sion and Kreia

I disagree completely. Sure there's a fair bit of hacknslash, but the Kreia and Sion conversations more than made up for that... It's there you learn about the true Sith, kill the last two Sith Lords, stop the Sith and conclude the game.

and all the reasoning you used in the game to get this far matters none!

What would that reasoning be? It makes a fair bit of sense for the Exile to go after Sion (which was intended from Peragus) and to kill someone with plots to kill the Force if you ask me. :)

My opinion of all this will likely change with the TSLRP.

What's there they're really adding? Don't get me wrong, I'm eagerly awaiting the new content they'll implement... But it has little relevance to the plot. On Malachor you get extra scenes with Kreia and Sion, get to see your party members kill each other, that sort of thing. Sure, it's cool to have the extra content, but does that really change the overall story?

One thing the game needs, in my opinion, is a final stage in the Nihilus battle is where he status's both your party members and forces you into a final one on one dual that is actually difficult! ... can anybody do this???

I don't quite see how that would change his role in the plot (:P) but it would be pretty easy to do. Just have a script to keep your party members stunned and boost his stats in his utc.

Vaelastraz
06-03-2007, 05:25 AM
I think it might be interesting to start a poll what everybody's favourite aspect of a RPG is...I reckon "plot" would win here.

But there are other aspects as well, and in that regard Kotor II wasn't that impressive. For me. I still love it though.

Jedi General
06-12-2007, 07:43 PM
KoTOR II was what it was meant to be, darker than the first, wars fought behind the curtain, so to speak, are always more gritty and less flashy than wars portrayed on stage.

The only thing i have grief about in KoTOR II, is the ending cut.

27 hours of hacking, slashing, saving masters for no goddamn reason, to get the kind of ending that most die hard RPG'ers would commit group suicide over, was in my own personal opinion, nothing less than psychological criminal damage.

I WANNA KNOW WHAT HAPPENED BETWEEN MALACHOR AND THE UNKNOWN REGIONS !!!

Unless its the prologue of K3 :p

J.G

[/RANT]

XenoGenesis
06-13-2007, 03:14 AM
TSL had every single possibility to become a great successor of KOTOR. Sure, Revan and Bastilla were both strong characters, but Kreia was just plain kick@ss. During their first hour of gameplay pretty much anyone can guess she's a Sith Lord either under disguise or who was limited in using dark side powers, but Kreia's character was MUCH more than that. Yes, she can be very annoying at times and has a "sarcastically cynical ;)" point of view, but that is what makes her a very strong character indeed.

Most characters in Star Wars universe are rather simple-sided, when Kreia is more of a twist and is a great instructor who does not limit her padawan's capabilities according to black-and-white codes. I would say KOTOR had a very interesting twisted plot, while the characters were great but somewhat one-sided: On the contrary, TSL had an one-sided plot where the characters were twisted and interesting.

Only backdraw would be that the game was rushed for the big time Christmas sales. So many unwrapped plot lines, cutaway dialogues, simplified climax... pffft.

While listening to Darth Traya "narrating" the ending, I felt like reading the 9th chapter of a ten chapter book. It was enjoyable very much indeed, but most certainly unfinished at the same time.

And if there are any plans to release KOTOR 3, I would anticipate it with great pleasure (well, that is, if The Force Unleashed remains a console-only game).

Prime
06-13-2007, 09:50 AM
saving masters for no goddamn reasonHuh? What do you mean there was no reason?

Gargoyle King
06-13-2007, 09:59 AM
KoTOR II was what it was meant to be, darker than the first, wars fought behind the curtain, so to speak, are always more gritty and less flashy than wars portrayed on stage.

The only thing i have grief about in KoTOR II, is the ending cut.

27 hours of hacking, slashing, saving masters for no goddamn reason, to get the kind of ending that most die hard RPG'ers would commit group suicide over, was in my own personal opinion, nothing less than psychological criminal damage.

You should wait for TSLRP, it will fill in a lot of the blanks (including 3 different endings) and will make a much more complete game that may even become more interseting than K1.

view of point.
I think you mean "Point Of View" ;)

XenoGenesis
06-13-2007, 07:19 PM
I think you mean "Point Of View" ;)

And after the post I DID felt I make a mistake somewhere, duh...! :toilet1:

Allronix
06-13-2007, 07:44 PM
Frankly, I'm with Rockstar. If we have to wait for the frakking MODDERS to finish the damn game, then someone at Lucas Arts did not do their job! The game is a rush-job P.O.S. with plot holes big enough to fit Malachor V and the Death Star!

Yes, the morality was grayer. Most of it seemed Star Wars as written by David Brin - ruthlessly critical of the universe's framework, determined to drag the je ne sais quoi of Star Wars out into the light and slit its throat. I really appreciated Kreia's argument that the universe was better off without the Force, that the ones strong enough to live without it were better than the Jedi and Sith who depended on it. I appreciated that Force Users were hated - seemed appropriate, very realistic...

But it wasn't Star Wars. For all its simplicity, for all its black and white, K1 was unmistakably Star Wars. The Jedi preach non-attachment, but you can't rely on them - you're relying on your friends and loved ones when the worst happens. It loved the universe, but pointed out the shortcomings. (Jolee was awesome with this).

K2? It's harder to call it Star Wars. Blake's 7 with lightsabers, maybe. (Goto and Orac had the same outlook on things) Now, I adore Blake's 7. But you don't hand Kerr Avon a lightsaber.

SilentScope001
06-13-2007, 07:52 PM
The game is complete without TSLRP, though. And there are very few plotholes actually, the most glaring one being the True Sith, but I think they never really intended to close that one. To back it:

What's there they're really adding? Don't get me wrong, I'm eagerly awaiting the new content they'll implement... But it has little relevance to the plot. On Malachor you get extra scenes with Kreia and Sion, get to see your party members kill each other, that sort of thing. Sure, it's cool to have the extra content, but does that really change the overall story?

The only REALLY important thing they are adding in is that Droid Factory, but it is important only to finish the subplot between HK-47 and Goto. And the Genohardan plotline seems a bit too...contrived for me to pay attention to. Honestly, from what I know, the Genoharadan plotline looks to be the worst of the cut content, used only as filler. I'm glad it's cut.

Does TSL really fits the Star Wars mood? I doubt it. Maybe that's why I like it.

Rockstar
06-19-2007, 09:44 PM
[QUOTE=SilentScope001]The game is complete without TSLRP, though. And there are very few plotholes actually QUOTE]

i understand that you are a dedicated TSL fan through and through and nothing could ever change that... but you just said there are "very few plotholes"

There should be NO plotholes, unless it is a simple contridiction in the story. Never because the game makers simply left it out.

Emperor Devon
06-19-2007, 09:53 PM
There should be NO plotholes, unless it is a simple contridiction in the story.

Well, then it's a good thing there are none at all. :P

Lord Ritly
06-20-2007, 10:38 PM
I'm on a no-play-TSL-strike until TSLRP is out. KOTOR is a really good game rich with stories, but believe it or not, TSL will be the best in the series. TSL was a RUSHED game so the potential was lost, but according to team Gizka, they will make the game that was meant to have in.

Corinthian
06-21-2007, 06:31 AM
TSL was a great game. But it was inferior to KotoR. Weak plot twist (I wasn't expecting what happened, but I wasn't surprised either.), weak romances, no real tying up what happens to the rest of the party following the Ebon Hawk's crash. Yeah, they all go on their own very brief journeys, but you never see them again.

Nihilus was the most pathetic excuse for a villain I've ever seen. I'm not kidding. Reelo Baruk was more intimidating, at least you could understand what he was saying. Nihilus was little more than a plot device to destroy the Jedi so that you could basically live in the Jedi Purge, 4000 years before it actually happened. Sion wasn't much better. Traya balances it out a bit, but 95% of the game is spent fighting Sion and Nihilus, not Traya.

There were so many things that were left out. Like the showdown between the Remote and Goto and the Droid Planet. The game wasn't finished. I enjoyed Sith Lords - but it's far short of what it could have been.

Rockstar
06-23-2007, 06:25 AM
i agree with many of the above points.

I believe that two almost undefeatable arguements working against TSL are:

1) the amount of ship crashes in that game are cheesy

2) the amount of loose ends that are not tied up. What happens with Goto and Malacore V? what happens to your other ship mates? What of the romances? all we get is thet most predictable twist in history (fighting kreia... if you didn't see that coming from the first 4 hours of play i worry for your every day judgement... lol)

PoiuyWired
06-23-2007, 10:30 AM
Well, think there is at least 3-4 Ship Crash, intentional or not. When I first play it I thought I did something wrong with my flying and the like. To be fair though, not all of these crashes are from the EH, or else it would be renamed Ebon Dodo.

Emperor Devon
06-23-2007, 05:03 PM
the amount of ship crashes in that game are cheesy

I can't say how that detracts from the story or gives the characters any less depth, but you're welcome to think that...

2) the amount of loose ends that are not tied up. What happens with Goto and Malacore V?

Look pretty obvious IMO. If Malachor doesn't blow up, then it's apparent Goto was able to subdue him and prevent its destruction. If he wasn't able to and the Remote does blow it up, well, wish Goto good luck surviving that.

what happens to your other ship mates?

Since you never see them leave the Ebon Hawk and later see it flying again (someone had to pilot it), I think it's inferable that they stayed on it.

What of the romances?

How is that a loose end? The lack of a romance doesn't make the story incomplete. With how much depth TSL's plot had and how interesting the characters were, I don't think the option to kiss some of them would've added anything to either them or the story.

all we get is thet most predictable twist in history

TSL was not meant to be and is not centered around any plot twists (personally I think it makes for a duller story when it relies on just one detail to make it a good one). The plot is stopping the three Sith Lords, recovering you character's connection to the Force and gathering/destroying the last of the Jedi. Kreia turning on the Exile played a very minor role in that, and was done merely to lure her to Telos and later Malachor.

Jacen Stargazer
06-24-2007, 08:05 PM
First off: Well, a it's OK for TSL to draw models and concepts from KOTOR, it is a SEQUEL.

Now, TSL did not copy much in the area of plot and characters; that's really what matters for a sequel.

Keep in mind that KOTOR was the very first Star Wars cRPG. Therefore, it followed the traditional Star Wars formula to a tee- ship attacked over a planet, big plot twist, ominous villain, and a main character with plenty of potential. And it did a very good job, according to me, KOTOR fans, and just about every video game critic. Not all rather generic stories are bad- if so, the Star Wars original trilogy wouldn't have been remembered to be so great. Quality, not just originality, counts as well. And KOTOR was loaded with quality. Everything was done well (well, maybe they did give Malak too much laughing gas).

Then TSL came along with its more original plot, expanding the potential for Star Wars cRPGs that KOTOR had opened. It expanded the controls and features of KOTOR. However, due to time constraints, Obsidian did not put in all that they wanted for the plot. There was less quality in the game. TSLRP is trying to fix that, but the out-of-the-box game just falls short of the quality that was in KOTOR.

How so? The pacing, for one. KOTOR starts slow to introduce you to the game, speeds up, and continues at a constant, enjoyable pace until the end, where it becomes a bit quicker, but not too quick, to wrap things up effectively and satisfyingly. TSL starts slow, then never sets a pace. It fluctuates until the end, when it wraps up way too quickly.

In affect, they are both good games. KOTOR has more quality, and TSL has more originality. Which is better is for personal taste.

SilentScope001
06-24-2007, 08:31 PM
[qupte]TSL was not meant to be and is not centered around any plot twists (personally I think it makes for a duller story when it relies on just one detail to make it a good one).[/quote]

I'd disagree. TSL had more plot twists than KOTOR, it's just that KOTOR's plottwist had more quality (but it's easy to spot a mile away). I prefer quanity plottwist rather than quality. A list:

1. Jedi Masters happen to be stupid and are unwilling to help you. (Oh noes!)
2. A Sith Lord happens to be smart and is willing to help you, for her own purposes.
3. Atris has fallen to the Dark Side.
4. You are the only one that can defeat Nihilus.
5. Revan betrayed the Republic to stop the True Sith.
6. There is a True Sith.
7. Goto is a droid.
8. You gave up the Force.
9. Mandalore is actually Canderous.
10. Atton worked for the Sith in the Jedi Civil War.
11. etc.