PDA

View Full Version : Some of the more major issues of OJP


Maxstate
06-03-2007, 06:34 PM
Guys we really need to stop pushing things away and we need to get a general consensus going on what we should do with some of our balance issues..

I'll list them out and I'd like everyone to post a Yes or No opinion on the questions I'm going to ask so we can get a tally going:


Absorb:
Should gunners be able to get Absorb 3?

Pros:
They need it to counter lightning spam.

Cons:
They can counter Grip and Lightning with level 2.
They can counter push and pull because they can shoot from the ground already and most of the time they won't even get pushed over.
Mindtrick is not that lethal and won't work either most of the time.
Having gunners and hybrids open to some Force powers will take away the doubt and make force powers more useful again.



Jump:
Why are gunners allowed to jump as high or as good as Jedi?

Should they be able to get jump 2/3?

Pros:
They can evade Jedi slashes with it and it saves them fuel so they only need to use jetpack when they have to run away from jedi.


Cons:
It's gamebreaking since it allows gunners to use Jedi tactics and dodge saber attacks. Since gunners do not use FP for anything else the losses that they take from bunnyhopping or just simply jumping away are null and void.

It's highly unrealistic and frustrating and really (just like Absorb and every other power) shames Jedi in the way that their year long training can be emulated by a mercenary with a gun.


High level Force Powers
Like Lightning and Grip and maybe even some other future powers.

Should gunners be able to take high level Force Powers?

Pros:
...

Cons:
Unrealistic, frustrating again and totally unecessary.

Not being able to use those powers while holding heavy weapons is a big big plus of OJP, but this needs to be taken one step further.


Blob
The clone rifle's imaginary secondary fire.

Should we replace it with something more suitable (along with the rest of the secondaries?) like a burst fire?

Pros:
It's an easy way to put Jedi in a position of vulnerability, aim and fire.

Cons:
It's gamebreaking, spammable, overpowered and too easy to use.
In my server, when someone wants to quickly kill or just annoy another person they use the blob and fire it as many times on someone as necessary to kill them.

This thing is a remnant of the old Quake3 styled baseJKA where this weapon would've been totally killer and cool to use, I don't know how many of you STILL SEE OR WANT TO SEE OJP be or become quake3 but it certainly hasn't crossed my mind lately.


--

These are our main concerns for now. Sorry guys but I really don't think it would be wise to continue and make additions while these problems are still in the back of our heads. Lets balance the shebang and then we can do whatever we want!

razorace
06-03-2007, 07:22 PM
I've already made it so that Force Power usage is restricted when using certain weapons. I've also made it so they can't block while using heavy weapons.

As for Force Jump, I've made it fatigue the crap out of players to use it if they spam it (high initial cost).

As for blob, I assume this is after the changes that we made to the splash radius and ammo cost? Should we remove it completely or should we just increase the shot cost (like make it use up an entire clip or something)?

Beyond that, we're just going to be making a class-based system and that's just not something I want to do. :(

Lathain Valtiel
06-03-2007, 07:28 PM
The title of this thread should really be: "Should we nerf hybrids to uselessness so I can be a PURE JEDI OMG".

Promod had a similar 'problem' minus the almost constant whining even when the force and guns they could take were restricted. Versatility is absolute, the long range offered by guns is simply insurmountable in the long run. And this is coming from somebody who used to be one of the better Jedi of that mod.

The fact is, it cannot be dealt with much further without nerfing hybrids to utter uselessness or forcing a class system. Class systems suck ass as does the first option.

Maxstate
06-04-2007, 03:25 AM
I really have nothing against neither Jedi nor gunner, I think they should be able to Jedi or gunners without having to resort to each other's skill systems to be efficient.

Hybrids are a different matter for me, because they can take everything and use it as efficiently as jedi.
Believe me Lath I enjoy being both gunner and jedi sometimes but some of this stuff is seriously gamebreaking. Not many of you have had the privilege of fighting so many different types of customized warriors, Jackbaldy can tell you what it's like to have a clone rifle'd gunner just jump over you while blobbing the heck out of you.

If not for balance reasons, then for realism...

Edit:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
lol my grammar sucks in the morning. As for blob, remove it and give the rifle either a scope (which is on the friggen rifle) or a burst fire like the E-11 should have. (I'd rather have a scope, personally).

tarbaby
06-04-2007, 07:13 AM
I'm a posting fiend today!

I think razor has a pretty good solution: carrying certain weapons restricts Force usage. Maybe you could expand it to include a 25-30% penalty on Jump (Speed too, if not already restricted). Gunners still need jump to get around maps, so you don't want to remove it or restrict it too much.

As for the Blob, just give it a 2 or 3 second "recharge" delay. Any competent Jedi should be able to get to his/her feet to saber/move out of range in that time.

TB

Maxstate
06-04-2007, 07:23 AM
The guns ALREADY have a penalty but jump and absorb aren't penalized with any weapons. We can leave absorb out of the picture if you guys want but gunners really shouldn't be jumping. They have a jetpack for that.

JRHockney*
06-04-2007, 08:37 AM
The guns ALREADY have a penalty but jump and absorb aren't penalized with any weapons. We can leave absorb out of the picture if you guys want but gunners really shouldn't be jumping. They have a jetpack for that.

Absorb IS penalized in using clonerifle, disruptor, and rocketlauncher because you can't use it. They are 100% vulnerable when using those weapons.

And I have no problem with blob. Its been nerfed enough and that gun is next to useless without it, especially at its new firing rate and damage level.

Maxstate
06-04-2007, 10:12 AM
Absorb IS penalized in using clonerifle, disruptor, and rocketlauncher because you can't use it. They are 100% vulnerable when using those weapons.

This is news to me lol? Do I have a different version than all of you? I still have the one Darthdie compiled for me that's very similar to r505 and it doesn't do that for me :confused:

TheShaman
06-04-2007, 10:43 AM
My knockdown system would nerf absorb.
KICK BLOB OUT !!!!
Replace it with either a fast burst of 3 shots, or with Max's Aim mode.

What about this :
People who spend points in gunnery menu can't go higher than level 2 in force powers.
People who spend points in force menu can't go higher than level 2 in gunnery.
Although, this messes with my knockdown system (the force resistance will be took weak), but to balance all of that, adding Max's aim mode and make it boost force resistance value would be a good idea.
This would both nerf a few things, and improve the gunner side of OJP.

razorace
06-04-2007, 01:26 PM
Don't worry Shaman, we're going to try to impliment your Force Power resistance system soon.

As for rank restrictions, I'll say again that I'm against them. It goes against the spirit of a skill based system. Plus, IMO I think we've nerfed the hybrids pretty good already.

JRHockney*
06-05-2007, 01:07 AM
This is news to me lol? Do I have a different version than all of you? I still have the one Darthdie compiled for me that's very similar to r505 and it doesn't do that for me :confused:

LOL! Its been around since 0.0.9u. Changelog:

- Can't use offensive Force powers while using heavy (Disruptor, Clone Rifle, Rocket Launcher, Flamethrower, and Detpack) or medium (blaster/bowcaster) weapons.
- Can't block Force powers when using heavy weapons.

This was like a major milestone improvement for OJP that I and many other rejoiced for. :p I would suggested testing your code out again.

Maxstate
06-05-2007, 03:59 AM
It says Offensive powers, you can still use defensive powers and passive ones while you have heavy weapons, I think we proved that with last nights' betatest?

razorace
06-05-2007, 04:51 AM
Err, "Can't block Force powers"=defensive powers.

You're right about the passive Force Powers thou. I'm not sure we should block those or not since they don't as impactiful on realism and gameplay as the offensive and defensive powers are.

Paro
06-05-2007, 12:05 PM
The title of this thread should really be: "Should we nerf hybrids to uselessness so I can be a PURE JEDI OMG".
/agree

Kyle Kelasheski
06-05-2007, 11:38 PM
Hey All,

Yes, I'm still alive, and it's hard to believe that I haven't logged in since August of 2006 !

I have been lurking, although I haven't had time to try out a single update to what I perceive as being one of the most important mods ever released for JK3.

That said, this topic takes me all the way back to one of my first posts, whereby I proposed that perhaps the best way to keep the game feeling as cinematic as possible was by implementing what we've seen in the movies.

Sounds simple, right? Obviously from all the haggling I'm still seeing, it's not.

I strongly recommend that people visit the following website for an extremely in depth review of the Unreal Tournament total conversion known as Infiltration. To simply dismiss it as another first person shooter would be a major misjudgment, as personally, its "infantry simulator" depth of gameplay has simply ruined my ability to play other first person shooters due to their utter simplicity and nerfiness. Here's the link: http://www.dslyecxi.com/botg_infiltration.html

Now some of you may be wondering why I'm referring to it here, and the answer's rather straight forward, I believe now as I believed then, implementing a weighted weapons system that affects players' starting level of stamina, speed, and weapon inertia would go a long way towards realistically balancing gameplay while maintaining the realistic means that the Star Wars films portray small arms firefights. If the power/attributes of a weapon was directly related to its weight/inertial mass in regards to aiming, then that would make the game all the more immersive.

In a very broad sense, classes would not be needed. There aren't any in Infiltration, and I dare anyone who is experienced with the game to find one that's better balanced than it is while allowing the player to select any kind of weapon/gear, while not utilizing a class based system. For example, let's say you want to play the BFG gun type bunny hopping Counter Strike addict that everyone likes to complain about. You start up a game of Infiltration, take the M249 SAW with two cans of ammo, six fragmentation grenades, a 1911 pistol with 4 magazines, and a type IIIA armored vest and a Kevlar helmet. Feeling pretty tough now, aren't you, because Infiltration let's you pick any gear that's desired, so you take the best, and lots of it. The problem is, once the game's ramped up, you find out that your starting stamina bar is only a centimeter high, your starting speed is abysmally low, and one's lucky to run 20 meters before breathing heavily and having a nearly impossible time of steadying the weapon. So, Mr. Uber Tough Guy catches a glimpse of an opponent armed with a "lowly" 9mm. pea shooter like a MP5. He tries to bunny hop out of the way, but can't because he's too pooped out from being overloaded. So he stutters behind a thin wooden wall, thinking he's got cover. Only the guy with the MP5 rakes the wooden structure, and rounds penetrate it and load Mr. Tough Guy's body up with splinters and lead. Aww. Too bad. You're dead because you've been hit in the face by a realistically structured environment.

Really, other than jetpacks and Jedi, everything else in the Star Wars universe pretty much follows real world tactics and methods of engagements. If cover is present, troopers seek it out, and use it by leaning around it, and then (oh my gosh!) aiming down the sights of their weapon. Spraying and praying only occurs in the most extreme circumstances, such as on Geonosis where there's not an inch of cover to be found on the ruddy plains.

Troopers should have the advantages they naturally have over their Jedi opponents. Perhaps the Jedi need to have powers that allow players to be more stealthy and "cunning," such as they are in the films. I'll be the first to say it here, in spite of how powerful troopers should be due to the overly violent means by which they equip themselves, without doubt, Jedi should own any trooper they get within 20 meters of. Their speed, power, Force pull/push, jumping capability, etc. should make them close quarter champions. To me, the game would still be fascinating to play even if it all boiled down to a simple formula: troopers desire distance while Jedi crave closeness.

Even if the principles that are spelled out above aren't used, please do yourself a favor, download the Community Edition of Infiltration, and give the game a solid try. The bots don't know how to lean, nor can they toss grenades unless they've used up all of their other ammo first, but you'll be amazed at how challenging, yet rewarding the game can be. If possible, try it out online after spending a week or two playing it on one's own. The online games are VERY tough, and the learning curve for me was easily a month, I kid you not.

Yours (and I miss you all!),

Kyle
June 5, 2007

:)

razorace
06-06-2007, 01:47 AM
Well, I think we're going to try adding a weapon weight system that will affect your movement speed and might make secondary fire a zoom function on most of the guns, but I don't think we need to go ALL out and make this ArmedA by adding ironsights and such. I'd like to keep things at a little faster pace since Star Wars is a bit more by-the-seat-of-the-pants vs real-world tactics.

BTW, welcome back Kyle. :)

Maxstate
06-06-2007, 05:21 AM
Hey All,

Yes, I'm still alive, and it's hard to believe that I haven't logged in since August of 2006 !

I have been lurking, although I haven't had time to try out a single update to what I perceive as being one of the most important mods ever released for JK3.

That said, this topic takes me all the way back to one of my first posts, whereby I proposed that perhaps the best way to keep the game feeling as cinematic as possible was by implementing what we've seen in the movies.

Sounds simple, right? Obviously from all the haggling I'm still seeing, it's not.

I strongly recommend that people visit the following website for an extremely in depth review of the Unreal Tournament total conversion known as Infiltration. To simply dismiss it as another first person shooter would be a major misjudgment, as personally, its "infantry simulator" depth of gameplay has simply ruined my ability to play other first person shooters due to their utter simplicity and nerfiness. Here's the link: http://www.dslyecxi.com/botg_infiltration.html

Now some of you may be wondering why I'm referring to it here, and the answer's rather straight forward, I believe now as I believed then, implementing a weighted weapons system that affects players' starting level of stamina, speed, and weapon inertia would go a long way towards realistically balancing gameplay while maintaining the realistic means that the Star Wars films portray small arms firefights. If the power/attributes of a weapon was directly related to its weight/inertial mass in regards to aiming, then that would make the game all the more immersive.

In a very broad sense, classes would not be needed. There aren't any in Infiltration, and I dare anyone who is experienced with the game to find one that's better balanced than it is while allowing the player to select any kind of weapon/gear, while not utilizing a class based system. For example, let's say you want to play the BFG gun type bunny hopping Counter Strike addict that everyone likes to complain about. You start up a game of Infiltration, take the M249 SAW with two cans of ammo, six fragmentation grenades, a 1911 pistol with 4 magazines, and a type IIIA armored vest and a Kevlar helmet. Feeling pretty tough now, aren't you, because Infiltration let's you pick any gear that's desired, so you take the best, and lots of it. The problem is, once the game's ramped up, you find out that your starting stamina bar is only a centimeter high, your starting speed is abysmally low, and one's lucky to run 20 meters before breathing heavily and having a nearly impossible time of steadying the weapon. So, Mr. Uber Tough Guy catches a glimpse of an opponent armed with a "lowly" 9mm. pea shooter like a MP5. He tries to bunny hop out of the way, but can't because he's too pooped out from being overloaded. So he stutters behind a thin wooden wall, thinking he's got cover. Only the guy with the MP5 rakes the wooden structure, and rounds penetrate it and load Mr. Tough Guy's body up with splinters and lead. Aww. Too bad. You're dead because you've been hit in the face by a realistically structured environment.

Really, other than jetpacks and Jedi, everything else in the Star Wars universe pretty much follows real world tactics and methods of engagements. If cover is present, troopers seek it out, and use it by leaning around it, and then (oh my gosh!) aiming down the sights of their weapon. Spraying and praying only occurs in the most extreme circumstances, such as on Geonosis where there's not an inch of cover to be found on the ruddy plains.

Troopers should have the advantages they naturally have over their Jedi opponents. Perhaps the Jedi need to have powers that allow players to be more stealthy and "cunning," such as they are in the films. I'll be the first to say it here, in spite of how powerful troopers should be due to the overly violent means by which they equip themselves, without doubt, Jedi should own any trooper they get within 20 meters of. Their speed, power, Force pull/push, jumping capability, etc. should make them close quarter champions. To me, the game would still be fascinating to play even if it all boiled down to a simple formula: troopers desire distance while Jedi crave closeness.

Even if the principles that are spelled out above aren't used, please do yourself a favor, download the Community Edition of Infiltration, and give the game a solid try. The bots don't know how to lean, nor can they toss grenades unless they've used up all of their other ammo first, but you'll be amazed at how challenging, yet rewarding the game can be. If possible, try it out online after spending a week or two playing it on one's own. The online games are VERY tough, and the learning curve for me was easily a month, I kid you not.

Yours (and I miss you all!),

Kyle
June 5, 2007

:)

I've read only a couple of your posts and was deeply impressed, now I love you <3.

This man has a point, read what he said, READ and ban lathain READ IT!!!

TheShaman
06-06-2007, 05:26 AM
What about making weight affect also your jump height and/(or if not possible) FP cost?
Like 5 (or 8 if you really want a very high jump cost) FP + weapon weight (1 for saber, pistol, 2 for E11 thermal, 3 for bowcaster, disruptor, det packs, 4 for clone rifle, rocket launcher).

tarbaby
06-06-2007, 07:05 AM
regarding kyle's post:

i agree 100%....but isn't that how it's balanced now? meaning: heavy weapons prevent the use of certain force powers.

i alluded to this before and kyle spelled it out perfectly: heavy weapons should (HAVE TO) restrict movement, and jedi should (HAVE TO) have an advantage in close quarters.

i would extend the restrictions to force speed too (if not already), and disallow people from running with heavy weapons. i would consider an "arming" delay. meaning: switching from saber/light weapon to heavy weapon takes 1 second or similar.

on a personal note: i love hybrid play. my favorite characters are jedi with missile launchers (just in case). i still like heavy weapons, but, what's the point of playing this game if you're NOT going to use light sabers?

tb

DarthDie
06-06-2007, 08:21 AM
What if I dont have unreal tournament? Cause i dont have it. :P

Kyle Kelasheski
06-06-2007, 11:42 PM
Unreal Tournament can be acquired via online sources that sell old/used games, and I imagine that by now it's acquirable for a very small sum of money. Even playing Infiltration offline makes buying the original Unreal Tournament worth every single penny. Again, even offline, the game has a pretty steep learning curve, after all, the ironsights aren't even fixed to a centralized aiming point, which is virtually what all shooters do. The thing that's cool then, is that one actually has to move their weapon/arms on the screen to take aim and then fire at a target. Another first in video gaming, and Infiltration did it years ago. But back on topic...

If one looks way, way back at one of my earliest posts, I brought up how dueling in the Star Wars films was based on exhausting one's enemies stamina reserves, and unless OJPE's saber mechanics have radically changed since I last played it, this is precisely what OJPE saber system is all about.

Now, if Infiltration style small arms fire mechanics were folded in, then stamina management would be just as critical for the shooters as it is for the Jedi. Again, a realistic touch that isn't contradicted in any way by what we've seen in the movies.

Please try Infiltration out before thinking it's a slow game. It's not. Trust me, few things are more terrifying, and I do mean terrifying, than thinking you have situational awareness, you turn a corner and oh my gollygee it's an opponent.

One can have a visceral sensation of speed without actually having to physically move fast. Moments such as described above are a perfect illustration of what I'm trying to get at.

Also, the physical limitations put on a player's avatar due to being burdened with weaponry/gear will have tremendous consequences for everybody on the field. A trooper who is poorly managing their stamina will be in just as much trouble as a Jedi whose poorly managing their stamina. A large portion of OJPE's saber system is grounded on stamina management--why not carry that key element over to the troopers?

Shouldn't they be penalized if they stalk around with their weapons endlessly held up to their eyes? Try walking around with a 5-7 lb. weight (or more) in your arms, locked into an aiming position. Yup, it's pretty tiring. A trooper's energy reserve is penalized less for carrying their weapon in a relaxed stance, but then they run the risk of missing their target if they suddenly have to bring their weapon's sight to their eye in order to have a remote chance of hitting their target before their target hits them. This system polices itself logically without having to rely on a class based system that's designed to pigeonhole nerfing exploits. The beauty of this sytem is that it applies to everyone and is thus a great leveler where good tactics and good gameplay are rewarded, and in spite of the level of challenge that's involved.

Certain moves could be included that aren't available in Infiltration. If one's weight is low enough, and if one's stamina is high enough, one could trigger a defensive move that counters the close-in tactics of Jedi. Now keep in mind, one CAN be light in weight, and still have no stamina due to being exhausted. Pressing the defensive move key or keys, would allow the trooper to more easily and successfully avoid a saber slash, or give them a reserve to resist a Force power.

The more exhausted a trooper gets, the more difficult it is to aim. Imagine how grateful a Jedi would be to see a tired trooper in a long corridor, because they'll automatically have a reduced chance to hit the Jedi due to the heaving of their exhausted bodies and wobbly arms. Likewise, being "conscious" of their own level of exhaustion makes them more fearful of being influenced by the powers of a Force user; and guess what? They're right to be more fearful, because that fear does make it easier for them to be manipulated by Force Users, because it clouds their minds, and weakens it. In a sense, it would operate under the same principles of suffering under the demoralizing effects of suppressive fire. Only this suppressive fire is caused by a god waving around a brightly gleaming sword that can slice through anything. If that isn't suppressive, I don't know what is...

Thus, in the end, a trooper who wisely manages their stamina will fare much better than one who doesn't. Let them pick whatever gear they want, but they should certainly suffer from its drawbacks just as surely they should delight in its advantages. But the tipping point between the one and the other should be left to the player's hands. Trust me, players will quickly learn what they like/don't like, and they'll develop their own style and approach to trooper combat. What will make it all the more enduring is that since the player is developing this "class that isn't a class" they'll take ownership over it, and that level of investment will keep them playing long into the night.

And Razorace, I'm happy I'm back too. This community sticks together for all of the right reasons, and it's hard to get away from it totally. Although I don't know how long I'll keep my "voice" active in the forums, rest assured, I'll keep lurking because the reading's so good.

Goodnight,

Kyle
June 6, 2007
:)

Wytchking
06-07-2007, 03:28 PM
I to like Kyle's fatigue ideas (though I think something similar has been suggested before) and I don't mind the idea of Ironsights but I believe that Ironsights would be too much work for too little gain as none of the current gun models have particularily good sights. One thing here is if this is implemented should force still be a kind of stamina bar as this does not make much sense for gunners or should a true stamina bar be added?

Maxstate
06-07-2007, 04:09 PM
What Kyle suggested, in one sentence is the nerfing of hybrids just as I and many others have done so before: "You can be good at one thing, or the other, but you can't have both and expect them to work as good."

He's the first one to really succesfully land a shock attack with that hueg and argumentative post, though.

Lathain Valtiel
06-07-2007, 04:14 PM
Actually, you can have both and expect them to work as good by virtue of killing enough to get the required points. Razor has no intention apparently of adding a Promod-esque skill-lock system.

Next... even if they don't work as good, as long as you don't nerf the intermediate levels to uselessness you will still get hybrid 'problems'.

Maxstate
06-07-2007, 04:19 PM
Actually, you can have both and expect them to work as good by virtue of killing enough to get the required points. Razor has no intention apparently of adding a Promod-esque skill-lock system.

Next... even if they don't work as good, as long as you don't nerf the intermediate levels to uselessness you will still get hybrid 'problems'.

I didn't say we should lock anything, but you can't expect it to work as good when you spent less time training it, less points in honing it and have less experience with it.

We can argue this all you want, bottom line is and will always remain that you can not have both without sacrificing SOMETHING.

Lathain Valtiel
06-07-2007, 04:36 PM
That depends on what you consider a sacrifice...

Maxstate
06-07-2007, 05:00 PM
That depends on what you consider a sacrifice...
I'm not asking hybrids to be nerfed to non-existence. I just want gunners that stick to gunning be better with guns than hybrids who don't have as much 'experience' with guns as the gunners do. There shouldn't be a reason for a gunner to be overwhelmed by a hybrid unless ofcourse they're of equal skill blablabla and so on. Same goes for Jedi.

JRHockney*
06-07-2007, 10:12 PM
Its Kyle!!!! I still use our saber sound mix and so do a few others! :D And good suggestions.

Kyle Kelasheski
06-11-2007, 01:06 AM
Hey JR, looooong time no "see." I'm happy to hear that the sound mod is still being used, and I never did post my last update, the one with a new Healing sound effect. It has a completely natural sound to it that works in ANY environment. I'd post it now, but unfortunately I'm currently stuck with a dialup connection. Yes, that's right, "dialup," and its smell is stinkier than a whole pile of my daughter's diapers.

I'm hoping that within a month or so I'll be at a location that allows for connections faster than 1 byte per minute. :-D

But back to the topic...

The beauty of the Infiltration system, and keep in mind, it only dealt with guns, was that each weapon had its own real-life characteristics. While it's not all that unusual to find players who use different weapons, they tend to stick to their favorite three. The reason for this is upfront, as the game's challenging enough just trying to master one weapon, but three or more?

I'd imagine that it could be just as challenging for OJPE. Small arms combat should be just as physically challenging to the player as OJPE's saber system is. The last time I played OJPE, my hand and arms were just as tuckered out as the first time I tried playing it, and the same holds true for Infiltration. There's so many factors to juggle, and seeking out cover and concealment while having to move one's arms/weapon to aim and recover from weapon recoil makes for a physically demanding experience that is extremely satisfying if one's managing it succesfully.

The point of me spelling the above out here is that I strongly feel that such a system would naturally keep nerfing behaviors at bay. To me, it wouldn't be an issue if one person wanted to use a saber and then maybe utilize a blaster later on. Said players are going to be better at one than the other, and all without having to use cheap shots to make it feel proper.

Something more to chew on...

Goodnight all.

Kyle
June 11, 2007

:)

razorace
06-11-2007, 01:44 PM
Yeah, I'm on dial up too. I'm looking into upgrading to wireless broadband.

Maxstate
06-11-2007, 02:15 PM
Ontopic:

I'm going to suggest two things:

O: Listen to Kyle. You can not have it all. A jedi can not have it all, a gunner can not have it all and a hybrid certainly can't have it all without having some of his stuff go down the toilet. I've been testing a lot lately and I'm admitting that I might've overreacted; the latest versions just get better and better.

O: I'm going to make a really big suggestion now that might change the way this game is played, and I'm hoping you all will have an open mind for it (it might deserve it's own thread but we'll talk about that later).

Runspeed.

Yeah, I've suggested it before but just dropped it because it seemed fine after the gunners got introduced. Now however I'm not so sure.
I think the runspeed we have now is a slightly lowered form of the base runspeed, correct? If so, I really think we should try just lowering it for everyone. Maybe just slightly to try it out and see if it improves the general gameplay in terms of reducing some of the chaos we have now.

Anyway like most of my current posts I'm going to try and cut right to the point.

Benefits:
-Less chaotic gameplay
-Less room for bunnyhopping
-More thought out and tactical gameplay
-Forcepowers and Force sprinting become much more important
-Gives gunners more time to think and to shoot at incoming jedi
-Forces Jedi to walk more and use their wits instead of just tanking through gunfire like nothing and swinging around wildly
-Will make saber dueling more fun and realistic due to lowered walking speed

^ Is just off the top of my head, I'm sure we could think of many others just like this.
The main reason for me is changing the way OJP 'feels'. We're trying to steer away from the whole base-y quake 3 spamfest but we still keep holding on to some of the foundations of it, like the current runspeed and the ability to bunnyhop.

Can't see any cons to it, other than that we might be dissapointing the fanbase that actually WANTS another unrealtournament/quake 3 mod.

JRHockney*
06-11-2007, 08:08 PM
Yeah I'm for lowering the running/walking speed a bit too. I don't want to lower it to the point were its boring for Q3 style players, but I do think our battles look a bit too chaotic at the moment and lowered speed would clean it up a bit. While it might make dodging sabers a bit tougher, it would make jedi easier to hit when they run and give gunners a bit more time to get up after being pushed over, though pull may have to be nerfed a bit because that would be very powerful in such a situation.

Maxstate
06-12-2007, 05:34 AM
We've gone through extensive testing and talking about this yesterday and we've come to these conclusions:

Running speed is best at 210
Walking speed is best at 190-200

The critical DP threshold needs to be lowered. I was a jedi with 20 points and my DP was already flashing red at 34! Too much.

TheShaman
06-12-2007, 06:02 AM
Critical DP should be at 20, it's the double of critical FP, and it's an ammount which allows you to block 1 more swing, but not more.

Tanqexe
06-12-2007, 06:19 AM
Agreed on lowering crit DP to 20, esp. since we start out with ~ 50+ DP. Also, saber throw isn't all that great as it is right now and is an underused force skill. Perhaps we should increase the speed of the throw with each level to make it much more useful; right now it just doesn't feel like something that's being tossed with lethality in mind and it just looks kinda...wimpy.

Maxstate
06-12-2007, 06:25 AM
Agreed on lowering crit DP to 20, esp. since we start out with ~ 50+ DP. Also, saber throw isn't all that great as it is right now and is an underused force skill. Perhaps we should increase the speed of the throw with each level to make it much more useful; right now it just doesn't feel like something that's being tossed with lethality in mind and it just looks kinda...wimpy.
/Agree

I find that it does instakill running people when thrown from behind... To be honest I'd like to see the amount of spinning it does increase too, if even just for visuals.

TheShaman
06-12-2007, 06:28 AM
The problem is that a realistic saber throw would mean instakill, and this makes obvious balance problems... But seeing a saber cut someone for 40 damage makes me sick...

Maybe it should do same damage as a saber swing, but to balance it, it should be a very expensive skill, like grip or lightning, and have very short range, and also nerf the saber pull back (see below).

Also, something about pulling saber backs to you, would it be possible to make force pull necessary to do it? Like... make that the player has to target his saber hilt, and press pull, if he is at the right range (depending on force pull level), the saber is successfully pulled, otherwise nothing happens.

razorace
06-12-2007, 02:34 PM
I think that Force Pull might already be a requirement to pull the saber back. I don't remember.

Actually I've been thinking that we might want to make the Saber Throw be extremely hard to Dodge (just like the sniper rifle) but pretty easy to saber block. This would make it useless in saber combat but useful (but risky) in jedi vs gunner combat.

Finally, the reason why the DP critical is so high is because that's the cost of one body Dodge. Realistically, I think we need to remove the movement slow down for critical DP. All it does it prevent strategic withdraws and speeds up the battles.

JRHockney*
06-12-2007, 07:57 PM
Running speed is best at 210
Walking speed is best at 190-200

Hmm, we should do more tests on that and make it default if it works well. What are the cvars for that?

Actually I've been thinking that we might want to make the Saber Throw be extremely hard to Dodge (just like the sniper rifle) but pretty easy to saber block. This would make it useless in saber combat but useful (but risky) in jedi vs gunner combat.


Agreed.

Finally, the reason why the DP critical is so high is because that's the cost of one body Dodge. Realistically, I think we need to remove the movement slow down for critical DP. All it does it prevent strategic withdraws and speeds up the battles.

Stretegic withdrawals are annoying as heck in a duel. I don't the slower speed is one of the few things that helps stop people from just running away when their losing. I'm not in favor of losing it, especially now that speed is so easy to use.

DarthDie
06-12-2007, 08:41 PM
g_speed is the cvar. I agree with Razor with saber throw.

razorace
06-12-2007, 09:38 PM
Someone please bug ticket the saber throw then so I'll remember to do it. :)

As for running during a duel, it's a completely legit tactic. As long as their FP holds out, they should be able to stay in the fight if they're smart. If the problem is something with the regen rates (or with meditate) that can be dealt with as a seperate issue.

JackBaldy
06-13-2007, 01:18 AM
I agree with Hocks. If you want to run away right now, there are enough tools to do so even if you are in critical dodge points with lowered speed. It should be difficult to run away, not a cake walk.

Maxstate
06-13-2007, 03:01 AM
I've always been against limiting people like that, for example running away. Sure it's still part of your gut ripped out when you've fought your opponent for like 5 minutes and then you've almost got him and he runs away. With the current changes to Force powers and Force Speed we shouldn't need the lowered critical threshold though :)

JackBaldy
06-13-2007, 03:46 AM
I've always been against limiting people like that, for example running away. Sure it's still part of your gut ripped out when you've fought your opponent for like 5 minutes and then you've almost got him and he runs away. With the current changes to Force powers and Force Speed we shouldn't need the lowered critical threshold though :)

You can already run away with the current speed of critical dodge points. Why make it easier? I don't see the point in this. That's why the changes were implemented to begin with.

razorace
06-13-2007, 01:19 PM
Since we fixed bunny hopping, this isn't needed anymore. If they decide to run, they either:
1. Turn around and are vulnerable to Force Powers.
2. Move backwards and don't move as quickly as the attacker who's running forward.

My problem is that your movement speed suddenly drops and you get trapped (even if you're staying and fighting).

Maxstate
06-13-2007, 03:19 PM
And if we get the runspeed changes in, it's really much harder to go full-on assault against a gunner without slowing down too much.

Lathain Valtiel
06-13-2007, 08:27 PM
No, not really.

JackBaldy
06-14-2007, 12:39 AM
Well, my opinions might change if speed is altered. But until then, my opinion stays the same on the lowered speed of critical dodge points.

Maxstate
06-14-2007, 03:27 AM
I hope we'll get to try the new speed changes in the next release as something *official*. I've currently changed g_speed indefinetly on my own server and we've gotten used to it and are enjoying it :)

TheShaman
06-14-2007, 02:16 PM
I usually use g_speed 225 when I play against bots. (As well as g_gravity 880, because I think we fall too slowly with 800, but it's not a must).

Although, I got a question, I'm surprised that walking has a speed of 190-200... I thought it was like half of the running speed. Or maybe I misunderstood what you said, Max.

The Unbeholden
08-04-2007, 07:14 AM
The saber throw idea is real good, doing the same damage as a normal swing is realistic. i hate it when i throw a light saber and it does a almost no damage as if the saber suddenly becomes weak when you throw it. Yer so make saber throw do the damage of a normal swing but make it so its easily blocked if the opponent has a light saber, also increase the speed of the throw and decreasing the range of throw to balance it.... as it will move faster now the saber throw is a good "surprise" attack in a certain situation. So its useless in light saber to light saber combat unless the opponent turns there back or gets disarmed.

The increased speed and damage of the light saber throw will also make it good in a jedi to gunner situations because its stupid throwing a saber against a gunner which leaves you wide open and even when the saber hits them they dont die but you get fired to death.

In this way its more realistic and people will actually use saber throw now. (nobody has used when i played)

i don't like the idea of run speed changes as the games oready quite slow paced, and most of the time your better of walking anyways..... sounds a bit crappy.

Maxstate
08-04-2007, 07:57 AM
This game is far from slow paced?

The Unbeholden
08-04-2007, 10:02 AM
light saber combat is 75% walking if not more.... to use guns you stand still anyways other wise accuracy goes kaput. we move any slower its gonna be a a pain to get around the map.

Maxstate
08-04-2007, 10:41 AM
Then you mean lightsaber dueling is slowpaced, not the game. I disagree on the gunner part.

The Unbeholden
08-04-2007, 10:44 AM
what do you mean disagree?? theres nothing to disagree im stating a fact.. gunners cant run because they looose mishap twice as fast.

Maxstate
08-04-2007, 10:46 AM
The gunner part of the argument, that gun battles need to be slow in order to be effective, that's the point you were trying to make, and that's what I disagree on.
My reasons for this are very very obvious, and if you want to know them I suggest you get your ass on hamachi and play with my crew.

The Unbeholden
08-04-2007, 10:51 AM
so your saying is that even though you loose mishap twice as fast while running and shooting people still run with guns and are effective??


but even if we lower the running and walking speed gunners and jedi's will both move slower so there isn't any difference. i was saying that we shouldnt modify the running or walking speed becasue the pace of game is good

Maxstate
08-04-2007, 10:53 AM
I am saying that situations with a slow pace of combat for gunners are rare, and running is not a problem.

The Unbeholden
08-04-2007, 10:55 AM
so what do you suggest we do then?

Maxstate
08-04-2007, 10:58 AM
What I wanted has already been done and worked on, if it's getting into the main OJP distro is the question.

The Unbeholden
08-04-2007, 11:03 AM
what did you want to be implemented to make gunning combat more slow paced?

Maxstate
08-04-2007, 11:07 AM
I did no such thing.
The changes we've made are in the hamachi meetup thread if you want to know them!

Maxstate
08-04-2007, 12:44 PM
Yeah they're excellent, though we'll need to change the e-11's dp damage to 3 from 2 on it's secondary :) Other than that maybe increase max jump height a bit more and we're set.

The Unbeholden
08-04-2007, 01:06 PM
excellent??? hmmm.


max jump height in a normal jump or a force jump?

Maxstate
08-04-2007, 01:09 PM
Force jumps ofcourse!

The Unbeholden
08-04-2007, 01:43 PM
hmmmm wait a sec...

after looking at things for a while i can see that there are some balancing issues.. force jumps are oready quite high i dont think we need them any higher. slower movement speed means gunners have advantages cause if you are seen at a distance your screwed... especially since theres no partial dodge against sniper... and e-11 blasters are faster shot now light saberists get a big kick in the groin..

and more fall damage and higher force jumps means that everyone will be getting jet packs and force jumps ... so i reckon that OJP enhanced will have balancing issues if theses changes are put in. Making snipers and jet pack users to good....

forget what I said.. these changes are bad :( i thought they where good at first cause it seemed realistic but after testing I see it causes balancing issues.

razorace
08-04-2007, 02:16 PM
Why change the e11 secondary DP damage? It's basically the same shot as the primary.

Maxstate
08-04-2007, 02:55 PM
hmmmm wait a sec...

after looking at things for a while i can see that there are some balancing issues.. force jumps are oready quite high i dont think we need them any higher. slower movement speed means gunners have advantages cause if you are seen at a distance your screwed... especially since theres no partial dodge against sniper... and e-11 blasters are faster shot now light saberists get a big kick in the groin..
Partial dodging is not regular dodging. Partial dodging is when you don't have 30 dp to do a full dodge, but you dodge and take a little HP damage too. A fully charged sniper shot instakills anyway, and if you have a saber you can deflect it, otherwise, you can still dodge it.


and more fall damage and higher force jumps means that everyone will be getting jet packs and force jumps ... so i reckon that OJP enhanced will have balancing issues if theses changes are put in. Making snipers and jet pack users to good....
I don't see the logic there? Increasing how high you can jump will make everyone buy jump? Everyone ALREADY buys one or the other. Jump's height is higher so it can compete with the jetpack's height, jetpack now costs 8 points instead of 4, if anything, this is more balanced.

The e-11 and bowcaster are faster, but have 2 DP damage instead of 5, as well as lower health damage to compensate for the almost doubled rate of fire. We'll probably have to put it up to 3 though.

crail227
08-04-2007, 04:14 PM
i think he's trying to discuss ideas rather than complain to you...

The Unbeholden
08-04-2007, 04:37 PM
Ok then.. i agree with your "increase rate of fire" idea. I don't think force jump needs a boost.... its seems fine. Jet pack needs 8 skill points instead of 4 which your right about. I dont think that movement speed should be lowered so because you said nothing about that then i guess you agree with me. Also i don't see any point in removing partial dodge but you obviously do so explain it.

I'm not sure why you think everyone buys jetpack or force jump... you don't have any evidents of that so you can't state that. If so then the increased jet pack cost will balance it.

you didnt say anything about the increased fall damage so i guess you agree then it will unbalance things... it will make jet pack users and force jump users to good and will unbalance things.

so far the only things I agree with is increasing jet pack cost and the increase rate of fire of E-11 and bowcaster in return for lower damage.

Maxstate
08-04-2007, 05:49 PM
Ok then.. i agree with your "increase rate of fire" idea. I don't think force jump needs a boost.... its seems fine. Jet pack needs 8 skill points instead of 4 which your right about. I dont think that movement speed should be lowered so because you said nothing about that then i guess you agree with me. Also i don't see any point in removing partial dodge but you obviously do so explain it.
Slowed movement speed is a server specific option currently that slows down the pace of the game just for a tiny bit in return for more tactical and strategic combat, it also gives gunners more time to think when shooting jedi, and is far more realistic than what it was before.

Removing partial dodge came to mind because of complaints about it. If you can't dodge and do not have 30 dp or more you shouldn't be able to dodge. A lightsaber hitting you is a lightsaber hitting you regardless of where. Obi wan's shoulder and arm got SCATHED just a little bit and he was out of the game.


I'm not sure why you think everyone buys jetpack or force jump... you don't have any evidents of that so you can't state that. If so then the increased jet pack cost will balance it.
Yes I do have evidence; my own personal experience. Also common sense is on my side here, no need to go further into discussion about this.


you didnt say anything about the increased fall damage so i guess you agree then it will unbalance things... it will make jet pack users and force jump users to good and will unbalance things.
Increased fall damage because you could jump off of skyscrapers and suffer minor damage. It also deterred people from using Force Fall, which is silly and ironic. How will more fall damage make jetpack users too good? So non-jetpack users that jump off of buildings willingly are supposed to be good? You make no sense.


so far the only things I agree with is increasing jet pack cost and the increase rate of fire of E-11 and bowcaster in return for lower damage.
You need to play this game more mah man.

The Unbeholden
08-04-2007, 05:53 PM
The increased fall damage will make jet pack users and force jump users to good so the increased fall damage will make them even more popular which in itself is a very bad idea.
(but i do agree it is realistic)

I only agree to the fall damage thing if we put force fall as a separate skill to force jump or make force jump more expensive. (also making jetpack more expensive will also make this more balanced)

Now that i know what partial dodge is ... good idea.

Good that you think the speed of movement shouldn't be changed (thats what really scared me)

Maxstate
08-04-2007, 05:58 PM
The increased fall damage will make jet pack users and force jump users to good so the increased fall damage will make them even more popular which in itself is a very bad idea.
(but i do agree it is realistic)

I only agree to the fall damage thing if we put force fall as a seperate skill to force jump or make force jump more expensive.

Now that i know what partial dodge is ... good idea.

Good that you think the speed of movement shouldn't be changed (thats what really scared me)
Jetpack and jump users are already popular. The two skills are the most basic of basics and no jedi/gunner will be found without them.

Why do you want jump more expensive or force fall a different skill?

I want the movement speed changed.

The Unbeholden
08-04-2007, 06:01 PM
I dont think that any skill is a must.... i think it should all skills should be even. And i like the pace of speed the game is at

Force fall thing was just a suggestion.... forget it. I think now that its simpler if its combined like it is now.

Maxstate
08-04-2007, 06:02 PM
I dont think that any skill is a must.... i think it should all skills should be even. And i like the pace of speed the game is at
Yup, people have different opinions. Welcome to society!

The Unbeholden
08-04-2007, 06:03 PM
Let me more specific and conclude this conversation....


i disagree to the increasing of force jump which i think is bad as this will make force jump higher levels useless

i disagree to the slower movement speed makes gunners to good and makes moving around the map a pain

to tell you the truth I dont have any beef with partial dodge... we have to make it even. This is still a game... not real life. Players should be able to take a nick of a light saber and still be able to fight.

Ive just checked the E-11 and bow caster... i think there damage is oready quite low... and with secondary attack it actually fires quite quickly. Dont see why we need to make it any faster. If so then the change would be quite small. quite trivial to be arguing about as its not any thing that significant.

The only thing I agree on is the falling damage increase but this makes Jet pack to good, so increase jet pack skill cost from 4 to 8 (to make it even with force jump). In this way it's realistic and balanced.

[Alpha]-0mega-
08-05-2007, 06:06 AM
If you're planning to increase maximum jump height, HOW much are we talking about, because if it's to compensate with the jetpack users, then in what manner is it being compensated?

Do you increase the height so they have to use less jumps to get to some ''high'' object where the jetpack user fled to?

Do you increase the height just for the sake of getting ''equal height'' as a jetpacker? (Which has no use imo unless you're planning to try and jump up and hit a jetpacker, jetpackers are way more mobile than jumpers)

And about the hybrid nerf warz in the beginning of this topic.
The hybrids need to get MORE skill points to get the same ''skill'' as gunners & jedi.

This is somewhat like:
Jedi trains 5 years, gets X or Y skill.
Gunner trains 5 years, gets X or Y skill.
Hybrid trains 10 years, gets X + Y skill.

Maxstate
08-05-2007, 06:10 AM
We're planning on giving Jedi more options and more maneuverability to be able to follow and follow up on their battles. It's not just gunners using the jetpack, and it's not just high obstacles in the way. Maximum jump height will be increased to however high people would want it to go, the idea I get from my testers is that it could be a small bit higher. Currently it's just enough to be able to jump on things you had to ledge-climb on before.


MAORSKILL
This is somewhat like:
Jedi trains 5 years, gets X or Y skill.
Gunner trains 5 years, gets X or Y skill.
Hybrid trains 10 years, gets X + Y skill.
Hybrids can buy a lightsaber for 2 points and use it as efficiently as a Jedi who has put in more points and training into it*

Lurk moar!