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SilentScope001
06-04-2007, 03:31 PM
Here we go. I hear this bantered around: "Gameplay is not canon".

I believe it. But why?

I mean, gameplay reveals a lot of stuff about how Star Wars work, and gameplay shows how the world is reallly run. Just like how a Science textbook teaches you how the world revolves, the Gameplay teaches you how the Force works, how you gain LS or DS points, how does being a Gray-Alignment Jedi work, how does casting Force Powers work, how Speaking Very Well can help increase your power, etc.

So, I just wonder why do people hate gameplay and don't see it as canon. It is a part of the game, and the game when technically played canonically is all canon, so surely, parts of the gameplay (not everything like class) should be canon. I agree with them...I just want to know why.

Gargoyle King
06-04-2007, 03:34 PM
Without gameplay, what is the point in a game? I feel a lot of people only play games for visual splendernous which really isn't what games are there for - there supposed to be entertaining not just moving images that you control.

stoffe
06-04-2007, 04:08 PM
the Gameplay teaches you how the Force works, how you gain LS or DS points, how does being a Gray-Alignment Jedi work, how does casting Force Powers work

Hmm, I wonder how many babies he had to steal candy from, and how many paupers he had to rob of their last few credits, before Palpatine achieved Darkside Mastery. :p

I get the feeling that the things you mentioned seem to work very differently in the movies and in games (not to mention radically different between various games all set in the Star Wars universe). Game designers are allowed creative license to create something that is fun and interesting to play, which does not necessarily have to conform with how a good story and cool effects are presented in movies.


So, I just wonder why do people hate gameplay and don't see it as canon.

Because many games can be played in differing ways, and offer some room for customization of the character you play. They are not railroad-linear with no wiggle room between the beginning and the end as to what can be done.

How would you add a game where the protagonist may either save or doom the galaxy, may or may not fall in love with some important person, may or may not betray The Republic/The Sith/The Whatever, may be male or female, may be a brutish thug, or a calculating schemer, or a living saint.

You can't really take such a story outside the context of the game, with so many unknowns, and say "This is what happened!" like how you read a book or watch a movie. And if you do pick one path, one character and one personality from the game, elevate it to canon and say "This is what happened!" you'll piss off a lot of people who have played and loved the game but disagree with the presentation of characters they've formed some sort of emotional connection with. Then it's better to just leave it out of canon entirely and let the games fork off and stand on their own, as something based upon the Star Wars continuity but not a part of it themselves.

In my opinion. :)

SilentScope001
06-04-2007, 04:26 PM
I'm not talking about the story, I'm talking about the actual gameplay mechanics, like the stealing candy from a baby to gain DS points. But now I understand.

adamqd
06-04-2007, 06:42 PM
I agree on the G-Canon (By Lucas) and C-Canon (Official unless it contradicts G Canon) thing cause it allows us to have fantasy within fantasy, because if it was all G canon then Anakin is a joke, He cant jump over Obi-wan without being maimed, but his secret apprentice can juggle star destroyers :D The Game is Canon, but you take it with a pinch of salt>


http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Canon

Masgrtgr
06-04-2007, 08:13 PM
I mean, gameplay reveals a lot of stuff about how Star Wars work, and gameplay shows how the world is reallly run. Just like how a Science textbook teaches you how the world revolves, the Gameplay teaches you how the Force works, how you gain LS or DS points, how does being a Gray-Alignment Jedi work, how does casting Force Powers work, how Speaking Very Well can help increase your power, etc.

1. There is no Gray Side of the Force, there's the "Light Side" and the Dark Side.

2. The way you use Dark Side Force powers makes no sense. It's been stated repeatedly that using powers like Force Lighting or Drain draw you closer towards the Dark Side. And yet you can use them repeatedly with no side effects in KOTOR.

3. Why aren't people killed instantly when I shoot them with Blasters? Or slice them with Lightsabers? Vice versa for me.

4.How the hell can people like Carth fight evenly with Dark Jedi?

5.Why are there only 30 people in planets? I mean places like Taris and Nar Shadaa were surprisingly unpopulated for being major cities.

6.Why do non force users bother using Cortosis weaponry when they have good old blasters?

Rockstar
06-05-2007, 01:03 AM
luke force gripped guards in ROTJ and was a powerful Jedi.

Kyle Katarn: "Powers aren't inherinently good or evil. it's how you use them."

The Jedi use the force to flow through them to predict and give them strength, and to manipulate their surrounds.

The Sith use the force as a weapon where possible. Using the force in such a way is not the Jedi way. Also, lightning and grip are really restricted to a single one on one situation, due to the draining nature of using these powers.

Allronix
06-05-2007, 01:06 AM
Well, game sourcebooks for the old dice and sheet really did a lot to expand the universe. As for why a game itself is kinda dodgy for canon purposes?

1) Not-so-little things like the appearance and gender of the character you're playing. Just see any debate on Revan's gender or the repeated attempts on Wookieepedia to gut Exile's article.

2) It is not only possible, but well established, that non-Force users can and do kill off Jedi - light or dark. Mr. Sunrider was killed by common thugs, leading Mrs. Sunrider to pick up a saber by necessity. The Mandalorians (and their bastard offspring, Clone troopers) could mow down Jedi by the score. And check Atton's dialogue file for tips on how ordinary men can take down Jedi.

That being said, though, you can't really do it the way you see in game. Canderous may be the exception - see post on Mandalorians. So, if you're WRITING a bit where Carth and Mission have to take down 2 Dark Jedi, you couldn't write it the way it's done in-game and have it work.

3) Honestly, the Force is, unlike the story Obi-Wan told Luke, is very much dependent on one's POV. Yoda calls is an ally. Kreia calls it a malovent manipulator (Ms. Pot paging Dr. Kettle...). Jolee and the Potentium crowd see grayscale. The practicalities of game design, though, skew it LS or DS.

My bro in law is an SW pruist who believes that there isn't a gray - eventually, the cards go on the table and the sides get called. All we've seen in the SW universe tends to support this. Kyle Katarn can be pretty damn gray, but he chooses LS. Kreia is "allegedly" gray, but reveals herself on the side of crazy dark in the end. On the temple top, it ain't just Revan making his/her final call. Jolee makes his own by ending the denials, justifications, and BS he's pulled since Nayama and accepts he's a Jedi.

4) Speaking of practicality - that's why the "crowded" cities only have a few villagers. This has been a video game "feature" since the first RPG ever graced a console. A truly crowded city would send your graphics card into a grand mal seizure.

5) DS points? Well, Yeah. Here's where Kotor fouls up. There are better and more creative ways to be a total bastard. Running both sides of a war, for example. And for all of Kreia's alleged "gray" (just a smoke screen), her reasoning, mentality, and methods would give some Sith pause.

One point where a DS kotor really scores? The aftermath if Revan chooses DS on the temple top. It makes Anakin's fall look like nothing and demonstrates in one brutal bit what the Dark Side IS. It's not mugging old ladies for credits. It's taking all the best things that happened to you and sacrificing them for what you think is power. DS Revan cuts down the old man who helped you, the innocent youngster who believed in you, the faithful and humble creature that pledged his life to you, (optional) a woman who idolized you, and (if DSF) the man you love. For an LS Revan - they do more than a hundred Jedi in saving your butt. they are the best things you will ever have. A DS Revan pisses it all away.

And as much as the Jacen Solo DS arc has sucked, they've got that right.

JawaJoey
06-05-2007, 01:12 AM
"Revan did this and this and this and saved the Republic."

That works as cannon. You play through the game, and if you do Male light side, there's your cannon. But wait, play through again, even if you make the same choices, the actual sequence of events will be slightly different. Both run-throughs are cannon on exactly the level that the game itself is cannon, but no more specific than that.

Did Revan go to Tatooine first or Manaan? Did Mission ever meet her brother Griff again? Did Revan spend 30 minutes walking around in circles on Dantooine that one time? There's a level of specificness that you can't reach when there is player choice (ie in any game).

That's part of it.

The other part, is the surrealism of it all. World War II actually happened. Did it happen exactly as it is portrayed in Call of Duty? Did soldiers keep track of their specific health point totals, and subtract a quantifiable number of points when they got shot? Did they function normally until their total reached zero? Did they walk over medpacs on the ground that instantly healed them of some of their wounds? Of course not. Those are gameplay mechanics.

In KOTOR, there are attributes, like Wis and Dex etc. But in Star Wars, just like in real life, those aren't actual quantifiable totals. There's no such things as levels, or force points. Jedi don't roll 20 sided dice to see if they hit or not. The game does not represent how Star Wars works, only how that game works. Proof is easily shown in the fact that different games have different mechanics.




Gameplay itself can't be cannon, because it always varies, and cannon is historical 'fact.' Gameplay mechanics simply aren't cannon, because they are and are meant to be abstractions of reality for the sake of enjoyable gameplay.

People don't hate gameplay, (no one would enjoy games if they did) but it just isn't cannon, because it can't be, even if anyone wanted it to be.

Marauder's Fury
06-05-2007, 03:42 AM
Well I killed Nihilus without letting him drain me, without sacrificing Visas, with lousy grenades, mines and blasters, Sith tremor swords, by running away and letting Canderous have all the fun, by using only Visas and her Master Speed, by mauiling him with Gamorrean axes... that's canon for you.

Corinthian
06-05-2007, 04:49 AM
Precisely. How would you like this kind of canon?

"Just before going to the Death Star, Luke saved his game, then went and fought AT-ATs until he leveled up to level 99 and could cast Force Knights of the Round."

Rockstar
06-05-2007, 08:52 AM
HERE is the ultimate arguement about gameplay canon!

Ep 3 game:
- pass with obiwan: get the movie ending
- pass with anakin: overthrows palpatine and rules the galaxy

The game's story IS canon, but how you play it is up to the player. As I said before, the reason you have STR, WIS, CHA, etc is for game play and the reason you can chose male or female and which planets you visit is because this is what RPG's are about these days. It's about customisability. FFVIII was fixed from start to finish. KOTOR could have been but they didn't because games these days are about choice and to explore the possibilities.

Anikan DID NOT defeat Obi-wan and overthrow Darth Sidious.

Revan WAS a male light human.

Exile WAS a female light human.

I prefer male exile but i just have to accept the canon is female... why can't everyone else? You can still play the way you chose.

Vaelastraz
06-05-2007, 12:54 PM
How can gameplay be canon? Then canon would be that Mandalore defeated Nihilus in a glorious duel while the others just.. watched.

Or i could hit someone several times on the head with my lightsaber. But he just won't die, because he got a lof of hp...how come his head doesn't roll of his shoulders?

But wait a second, lightsabers aren't that lethal anymore now, are they? I can activate an awesome energy shield and just absorb a couple of hits. When it's depleted, I just activate another one!

Also, did you take a close look at what bulky, big armor does? It apparently makes you faster! Look, at the animations, it's right there. With a better armor, the characters are more likely to dodge and parry! Now isn't that reasonable?

Arátoeldar
06-05-2007, 12:59 PM
^--- :lol: Well stated Vaelastraz.

Ecthelion
06-05-2007, 03:41 PM
As has been stated several times already, gameplay mechanics can't be canon. "Realism" (meaning in-universe realism) is always sacrificed to improve gameplay, although to various degrees.

However, the story of a game can certainly be canon (at least the "main" story - optional side quests and the like can't really be canon). If the story has multiple paths, one of them has to be chosen as canon (as has been done with KOTOR and KOTOR2).

I'm definitely in favor of games being canon. The story of many of the Star Wars games is much better than many of the novels and (especially) comic books, and they're canon. So games deserve to be canon too. Some of them already are, if we take the Star Wars Chronology into account.

Masgrtgr
06-05-2007, 04:01 PM
Without gameplay, what is the point in a game? I feel a lot of people only play games for visual splendernous which really isn't what games are there for - there supposed to be entertaining not just moving images that you control.

That doesn't change the fact that in "gameplay" people can be hit with Lightsabers or Blasters and not die or be mutilated.

Also in "gameplay" Heavy Armour can somehow make people dodge Blasters and you can use powers like Force Lighting or Drain without any problems.

Gargoyle King
06-05-2007, 04:08 PM
That doesn't change the fact that in "gameplay" people can be hit with Lightsabers or Blasters and not die or be mutilated.

Also in "gameplay" Heavy Armour can somehow make people dodge Blasters and you can use powers like Force Lighting or Drain without any problems.

Ah so you are referring to the 'realism' factor in the game - you know not all games have to be realistic; as long as you enjoy them as what they are, a game, then sometimes realism factors don't really matter - if the gameplay is good and the game stay's enjoyable, i personally don't care about realism mechanics too much. I take it your a HD gamer, as you seem to prefer realism a bit too much in a game (you seem quite passionate about it in your writing).

Stick to realism in the 'real world' - the virtual world provides the impossible so remember, don't think of a game as 'real life' as it is merely a form of 'escapism' and is supposed to be entertaining and thus my overall point has been made - REALISM DOESN'T HAVE TO COUNT IN A GAME!!

Masgrtgr
06-05-2007, 04:43 PM
That doesn't change the fact that gameplay isn't canon.

And challenging and "fun" gameplay isn't really the games selling point. Really in case you hadn't noticed the game is ridiculously easy even on the Hard setting. So I don't really see a problem with Lightsabers and Blasters killing cannon fodder enemies like Sith soldiers or Exchange thugs relativly quickly since after all they are cannon fodder. And when you gain some levels you tend to tear through most enemies using your various Force Powers.

KOTOR is fun because of it's great story and characters not really because of it having challenging and fun gameplay. The gameplay is fun but it's not challenging or particularly thought provoking.

And realism didn't have anything to do with my point.

Gargoyle King
06-05-2007, 05:03 PM
That doesn't change the fact that gameplay isn't canon.

And i wasn't disputing that, i was just referring back to your obvious intolerance of unrealistic game mechanics! :D

Masgrtgr
06-05-2007, 07:42 PM
2) It is not only possible, but well established, that non-Force users can and do kill off Jedi - light or dark. Mr. Sunrider was killed by common thugs, leading Mrs. Sunrider to pick up a saber by necessity. The Mandalorians (and their bastard offspring, Clone troopers) could mow down Jedi by the score. And check Atton's dialogue file for tips on how ordinary men can take down Jedi.

Sure non-Force users can kill decent Force users.....using Heavy Weaponry or psychological tactics or sneak attacks or quite simply using large numbers (The Clones). And most of the people you see using these techniques effectively were either Force Sensitive (Atton,Mara Jade), were Droids or at least had some sort of overpowered technology (Grievous,Kar Vastor), or were given special training or were "conditioned" (Emperors Hands, Dark Troopers, Clone Troopers, Revan's specially trained assassins assuming they weren't all Force sensitive).

None of the people I've mentioned are "normal".

And how frequently did the Mando's encounter and have individual fights with Jedi? I mean Force sensitives are fairly rare in comparison to non Force sensitives. Not to mention it wasn't just Jedi who were fighting but also non Forcies as well. And even then seeing as how it was a war I don't really think when Mando's killed Jedi it was during a fair fight or a duel. Chances are they probably ganged up on Jedi.

Hell look at the Jedi Purge.Overwhelming firepower (which is still "cheating") was considered to be the only way to kill a Jedi during the Jedi Purge. Look at how the Clone Troopers slew the Jedi in the temple, by being more numerous and throwing as much as they could at them.

And how powerful was Mr. Sunrider?


3) Honestly, the Force is, unlike the story Obi-Wan told Luke, is very much dependent on one's POV. Yoda calls is an ally. Kreia calls it a malovent manipulator (Ms. Pot paging Dr. Kettle...). Jolee and the Potentium crowd see grayscale. The practicalities of game design, though, skew it LS or DS.

Within context of the SW Universe sure but in going by what Lucas and the movies say then no. And I don't see what Jolee has in common with the Potentium believers seeing as how he acknowledges the Dark Side exists whereas Potentiums don't. And one could easily explain belief systems like Kreias as a result of no one truly understanding the nature of the Force outside of what Lucas says.


My bro in law is an SW pruist who believes that there isn't a gray - eventually, the cards go on the table and the sides get called. All we've seen in the SW universe tends to support this. Kyle Katarn can be pretty damn gray, but he chooses LS. Kreia is "allegedly" gray, but reveals herself on the side of crazy dark in the end. On the temple top, it ain't just Revan making his/her final call. Jolee makes his own by ending the denials, justifications, and BS he's pulled since Nayama and accepts he's a Jedi.

In that case there really isn't a Gray Side is there? :)

Rockstar
06-05-2007, 08:32 PM
... ur thinking way too hard... there is no "grey" Jedi

Light with a bit of dark and vice versa but never grey.

Remember the game is a GAME and grey only exists so you have to earn your way up the light or dark ladder. It's true doing deeds makes you more light or more dark but from the word go, a Jedi knows whether they are Light or Dark.

Darth Traya is the only questionable one, but 'darth' = Sith... so it works lol

PoiuyWired
06-06-2007, 12:18 AM
So it poils down to: Light Side - With Us or Against Us.

Snd I thought only a Sith deals in Absolutes, Sith or Yoda.

Ecthelion
06-06-2007, 07:46 AM
And how frequently did the Mando's encounter and have individual fights with Jedi? I mean Force sensitives are fairly rare in comparison to non Force sensitives. Not to mention it wasn't just Jedi who were fighting but also non Forcies as well. And even then seeing as how it was a war I don't really think when Mando's killed Jedi it was during a fair fight or a duel. Chances are they probably ganged up on Jedi.

Don't forget Jango Fett either. The one time we saw him engage a Jedi in a fair fight, he got his head sliced off. :P

Corinthian
06-06-2007, 08:43 AM
Actually, I'm pretty sure he nailed a Jedi or two at Geonosis before Windu obliterated him.

Ecthelion
06-06-2007, 10:31 AM
Actually, I'm pretty sure he nailed a Jedi or two at Geonosis before Windu obliterated him.
The only one I remember was the Jedi that foolishly tried to attack Dooku without paying attention to Jango (who was right next to Dooku). Idiotic Jedi committing suicide hardly qualifies as a fair fight. :P

Vaelastraz
06-06-2007, 10:33 AM
Snd I thought only a Sith deals in Absolutes, Sith or Yoda.

No everbody deals in absolutes apparently. The quote "only Sith deal in Absolutes" is quite silly actually.

@Masgrtgr
What you are saying is right. Jedi can be killed.
Unfortunately gameplay doesn't feature things like "they ganged up on them" "it wasn't a fair fight". Atton may know a ton of techniques to kill Jedi. Fine. He doesn't use them in the game though. They're not in the gameplay.

Using gameplay, Bralo can defeat a weakly skilled PC equipped with a lightsaber with bare hands. Wonderful isn't it?

Ecthelion
06-06-2007, 11:37 AM
No everbody deals in absolutes apparently. The quote "only Sith deal in Absolutes" is quite silly actually.

Yeah - even true relativists believe in the absolute that relativism is correct. If they believe absolutism could be correct, then relativism would be impossible, thus invalidating their beliefs.

Oh great - now I'm stuck in an endless loop again. It's a good thing I'm not some A.I. entity from Star Trek, or I would have self-destructed by now.

SilentScope001
06-06-2007, 02:37 PM
Yeah - even true relativists believe in the absolute that relativism is correct. If they believe absolutism could be correct, then relativism would be impossible, thus invalidating their beliefs.

Being somewhat of a Ethical Relativist/Skeptic, I do think this is a bit inaccurate, to say the least.

Actually, I personally believe that there is no way to prove anything that is absolute. Call it a moral absolute, and yes, I know it is a moral absolute, meaning I doubt this statement as well. It is possible that there can be a moral aboslute, but to be fair, I don't think it is possible to access it, so there is no use worrying about it.

Hey, at least it's better than being a Sith or a Jedi screaming, "I'm right, you're wrong....*rawrs*!"

Everyone believes. Even the Skeptic believes that there is no way to access truth. But is belief a bad thing?

Unfortunately gameplay doesn't feature things like "they ganged up on them" "it wasn't a fair fight". Atton may know a ton of techniques to kill Jedi. Fine. He doesn't use them in the game though. They're not in the gameplay.

On Normal and Hard, my party of 2 Jedi (Kreia and Exile) and Bao-Dur got ganged up by a Twi'lek girl, her droids, and a lot of mines on the Telos Surface. After being weakened by the mercs, Kreia and Exile bit the dust, and Bao-Dur fought a losing battle between the Twi'lek droid before falling as well.

These situations does happen in the gameplay. Just very rarely and only for very stupid people who don't min-max very well (like me).

Ecthelion
06-06-2007, 04:26 PM
Being somewhat of a Ethical Relativist/Skeptic, I do think this is a bit inaccurate, to say the least.

Actually, I personally believe that there is no way to prove anything that is absolute. Call it a moral absolute, and yes, I know it is a moral absolute, meaning I doubt this statement as well. It is possible that there can be a moral aboslute, but to be fair, I don't think it is possible to access it, so there is no use worrying about it.

Hey, at least it's better than being a Sith or a Jedi screaming, "I'm right, you're wrong....*rawrs*!"

Everyone believes. Even the Skeptic believes that there is no way to access truth. But is belief a bad thing?

I'm a skeptic myself, so you're preaching to the choir. But isn't what you said the same as what I did? You said skeptics believe truth cannot be accessed. Isn't that an absolute?


These situations does happen in the gameplay. Just very rarely and only for very stupid people who don't min-max very well (like me).
I wouldn't say you're stupid because you don't min-max well. I try not to powergame, and I don't consider myself stupid.

Rockstar
06-06-2007, 09:57 PM
So it poils down to: Light Side - With Us or Against Us.

Snd I thought only a Sith deals in Absolutes, Sith or Yoda.


Yes, a Jedi does not deal in absolutes. What I mean is that for somebody to be force sensitive and attuned to the light side then realistically they would already be half way up that light/dark bar. Same with a Sith. Jedi and Sith are such different ways of thinking that you cannot have an intermedium.

Darth Traya was the only exemption but she was still a Sithlord and if you analyse most of her advice then you can see that most of it is dark side/Sith ideals...

A Jedi would not ever put themself before another. A true and powerful Sith would never pass an opportunity to further their power. Most situations there is a clear light and dark path and a Jedi does not go "I'll save these people and then kill the next guy down the road" and a sith does not go "I will kill this Jedi so I can claim these lands and then save a village out of charity." There is no grey Jedi!

Rockstar
06-06-2007, 10:02 PM
THE ANSWER

To answer the question of this thread in one word: GAMEPLAY

Ep 3 the game allowed you to win the battle on Mustafa as Anakin, who after killing Obi-wan, overthrew the empiror and ruled the galaxy.

WAIT!! Now this must mean that what happened on Mustafa is all up to my own opinion does it? So because i believe anakin won and it is an open ended game then i can easily say that imo Anakin won.

NO i can't! Because the game and film makers said that Anakin won. An official source tells us that Revan was a light man and Exile was a light female. The other options are just there for gameplay variety and replayability!

Case closed :) lol

PoiuyWired
06-06-2007, 11:09 PM
Well, ITs hard to canonize the details, and rather pointless I tik.

Does it matter if Kyle killl Desann with a falling pillar, or with a saber attack? The idea is, Kyle kick his raptor butt.
Does it Matter if Exile lotoed a medpack or a relic sword from a bunch of sith troopers? Idea is that Exile defeated some sith troopers.
Does it matter that there is no washroom on the Ebon Hawk so Bastila must have been stinking really bad without showers? I mean, do you REALLY want to know?

I mean, the details are lost to time, and probably to the characters themselves. Just ask luke how many limbs he have chopped off thruout the years, and I don't thinke even he can remember.

JawaJoey
06-07-2007, 03:02 AM
Wow, this thread got deep. I believe in relativism myself, and I'm a skeptic. In a given situation, you can determine what is best (from a certain perspective) without needing to look to any absolutes. So why rely on them? But I don't see how this is related to the topic at hand anyways.

About gray Jedi, there's a difference between a real gray Jedi and a gameplay gray Jedi. Jolee was "gray," but was it because he alternated between good and evil acts? Not at all. He never did anything evil. He was a good man. But he did not believe or obey the restrictions of the Jedi Order. The reason he's not light sided is because he's not a true Jedi, not because he's evil at all. Tying that to gameplay, his broader view supposedly allowed him to access both sides of the force easily without fear, making him "gray" from the perspective of gameplay and FP costs.

But really, Jolee had none of the dark side in him. There's a distinction between what a real gray Jedi is and what gray Jedi means in terms of gameplay in KOTOR.

Ecthelion
06-07-2007, 07:46 AM
I think this "gray Jedi" stuff is just an excuse to let good people use dark side powers. I wish the Extended Universe had never gone there, and it's one of the many reasons I try to ignore the EU whenever possible. I realize they were trying to make things more interesting and more realistic, but that's not what Star Wars is. Star Wars is about an epic struggle between good and evil. Someone might flicker between the two for a while, but you can't sit on the fence forever. The movies have shown us that everyone ends up on one side or the other in the end. The idea that someone who doesn't accept Jedi teachings and still be good makes sense. But it's a little too convenient that someone in such a position gets to use dark powers without risking falling to the dark side. Jedi teachings aren't what prevents the use of dark side powers - it's the lightside itself.

Rockstar
06-07-2007, 09:27 AM
But he did not believe or obey the restrictions of the Jedi Order. The reason he's not light sided is because he's not a true Jedi, not because he's evil at all. ... Jolee had none of the dark side in him...

I agree with you here. Jolee was not a true Jedi as such because he did not follow the order or the true teachings. As you said though, he did not have an ounce of darkness within him and followed the choices of the light.

My conclusion is that, in effect, Jolee is a LIGHT Jedi but is not a light Jedi of the Order. Note the difference? I think that the limited light/dark slider in KOTOR being in the grey was the only way to show this, but even still, he was a light jedi, pure and true. It's our choices that make us who we are and never showed any sign of anything other than truth and goodness.


I think this "gray Jedi" stuff is just an excuse to let good people use dark side powers. ... Someone might flicker between the two for a while, but you can't sit on the fence forever. .

agreed. I think the grey Jedi concept is just really fan fiction chucked into the games for gameplay variety. Even Kyle Katarn, the most grey jedi ever, is a goody light two shoes. In JO he KNOWS how to use lightning after falling to the darkness, but it is YOUR choice whether you even use it once? Seeing him AI controlled in JA, he ONLY uses light powers.

As you said, you cannot stay on the fence forever... we all know the pull of the darkside cannot be resisted when sitting next to the seduction so closely :)

Ecthelion
06-07-2007, 10:03 AM
My conclusion is that, in effect, Jolee is a LIGHT Jedi but is not a light Jedi of the Order. Note the difference? I think that the limited light/dark slider in KOTOR being in the grey was the only way to show this, but even still, he was a light jedi, pure and true. It's our choices that make us who we are and never showed any sign of anything other than truth and goodness.

I don't think they had to put Jolee in the middle of the slider to show he wasn't a Jedi of the Order, and here's why. It's a spoiler for anyone who hasn't played through KOTOR2, so I'll tag it.
In KOTOR2, you can get pretty far into the Light side of the scale before you meet Atris. Another example is KOTOR. Before you recruit Jolee, you have to deal with the Czerka Tach poachers. If you save the Tachs, you get Light side points (if I'm not mistaken). This is quite simply a "good deed" and not a specific directive of the Jedi Order. While it's certainly the choice the Order would pursue, it could have been done by anyone who was good, or anyone concerned with the protection of life.
It seems obvious that the Light/Dark slider in KOTOR and KOTOR2 has nothing to do with the Jedi Order, but simply visually shows the impact of doing "good deeds". Therefore, I think KOTOR could have showed Jolee at the top end of the slider without compromising his non-Order status. Maybe his name should have been "Jolee the Ex-Jedi" or his Class could have been "Ex-Jedi Consular". :P


agreed. I think the grey Jedi concept is just really fan fiction chucked into the games for gameplay variety.
Wait - I thought the Gray Jedi concept was something from the novels. None of the games explicitly mention Gray Jedi, do they? I think that's just been retconned as the out-of-game explanation.

John Galt
06-07-2007, 10:22 AM
There were a set of "Gray Jedi Robes" in KotOR II, I think.

Marauder's Fury
06-07-2007, 12:35 PM
Even Kyle Katarn, the most grey jedi ever, is a goody light two shoes. In JO he KNOWS how to use lightning after falling to the darkness, but it is YOUR choice whether you even use it once? Seeing him AI controlled in JA, he ONLY uses light powers.
Lately I've decided to give the Academy another go and I'm on Vjun now. Kyle's frying Stormtrooper asses pretty handsomely. Jedi Master difficulty and those Dark Jedi seem to be no match for his lightning.

Though, since he has common sense -something we don't get to see often in the SW universe-, he mostly keeps his base emotions in check, rather than giving in.

By the way, why is Lightning a dark side power? OK, I'll save this one for a future rant-on topic.

Rockstar
06-07-2007, 10:14 PM
IIt seems obvious that the Light/Dark slider in KOTOR and KOTOR2 has nothing to do with the Jedi Order, but simply visually shows the impact of doing "good deeds".

I agree with you here mate. But it seems that Jolee still breaks the rules of the slider? He treats others with respect, rescues his shipmates as opposed to just saving himself aboard the the Sith vessel (if you chose him), and most importantly, attacks Revan if he choses to dark side in order to save the galaxy from a great evil. A dark sider would join Revan in order to learn from his power to further their own.

Jolee is a definate light sider and should at least be somewhat in the shaded blue area... i just don't understand why he is not?

He is an Ex-Jedi, but his powers are equal to all other 'full' jedi in your group?

I'm confused but i think it's pretty safe to say he is a light jedi at heart, even if not in reality.



By the way, why is Lightning a dark side power? OK, I'll save this one for a future rant-on topic.

I've opened a new thread :)

JawaJoey
06-09-2007, 12:21 AM
The *real* reason Jolee is gray is so that light side players have the option to have Jedi that use Dark Side powers somehow in their party without any penalties. And he's justified as gray as opposed to light or dark by saying that he doesn't see things in light and dark. Obviously, that doesn't make him a bad person. His actions showed that he should have been light, just like the player's good actions make them light.

So realistically he should have been light, but this is a game we're talking about.