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MountPanda
06-05-2007, 04:06 PM
Should blob (sec. fire of clone riffle) be removed?

DarthDie
06-05-2007, 04:16 PM
CAKECHESS!!!! Nah Remove it!! And replace it with something like rapid fire...sniper rifle...oo that would be sweet...

Gargoyle King
06-05-2007, 04:23 PM
CAKECHESS!!!! Nah Remove it!! And replace it with something like rapid fire...sniper rifle...oo that would be sweet...

Sniper Rifle, that would be sweet! :D

Lathain Valtiel
06-05-2007, 10:29 PM
Keep it as it is of course.

...Hey, why can't I see who voted? WHO ARE THE WIMPS WHO VOTED FOR REMOVAL?

Some of you don't even have the guts to admit it, eh?

madcatmach2
06-05-2007, 11:24 PM
i think it's a needed asset, and with the old versions i suggested a cool down time and an increase in ammo cost to balance it don't know if it ever got implemented (cool down that is)

Johnpp
06-06-2007, 01:51 AM
Yes, blob should be removed, but that would require hard coding it out and the damage edited, R.O.F. edited, etc etc.

Maxstate
06-06-2007, 05:12 AM
I'm inviting you guys to play with us some time via hamachi or otherwise and I'll show you personally in what way the blob can ruin gameplay. Oh yes, players that want to keep this mod true to "OMG CAFFIENEE RUSH BASE BUNNYHOP JUMP BLOB QKIKKKKKKK333 LIGHTNIG" = no plz.


Edit:
The thing is overpowered and gamebreaking in every aspect. If you do not know or understand this you should play with humans more and stop fighting bots.

TheShaman
06-06-2007, 05:21 AM
Change.
Either max's aim mode, or a burst fire of 3 shots very quickly.

madcatmach2
06-06-2007, 04:00 PM
I'm inviting you guys to play with us some time via hamachi or otherwise and I'll show you personally in what way the blob can ruin gameplay. Oh yes, players that want to keep this mod true to "OMG CAFFIENEE RUSH BASE BUNNYHOP JUMP BLOB QKIKKKKKKK333 LIGHTNIG" = no plz.


Edit:
The thing is overpowered and gamebreaking in every aspect. If you do not know or understand this you should play with humans more and stop fighting bots.
max i do play with people online just not hamachi cus ive been to lazy to get it :p

JRHockney*
06-06-2007, 06:54 PM
Edit:
The thing is overpowered and gamebreaking in every aspect. If you do not know or understand this you should play with humans more and stop fighting bots.

No its not. If they blob spam you, force spam them :p They only have a total of 10 blobs per clip (3 at level 1) and they are completely vulnerable. And, if we get rid of blob, it will make that weapon next to useless at its current firing rate and it will make alot more work for razor because he has to change and modify every reference to it in the code when he could be working on other things and do a simple balance to this feature.

The only things that needs to be done to it in my opinion is to reduce the DP damage it does because its pretty high right now, maybe decrease the splash a bit more, and make primary fire do more damage. I suppose we could also do something like make the effects of the blob based on the opponents DP, like a stall over 1/2 DP and a knockdown under 1/2 DP.

razorace
06-06-2007, 08:07 PM
Actually removing fire modes is pretty easy to do. Probably about 10 mins of work.

My impression is that a lot of the frustration might be related to gunners being able to fire at point blank range while falling from a push/pull. I think I liked someone's suggestion of not allowing firing while knocked down unless the player had level 3 in the related weapon skill.

DarthDie
06-06-2007, 08:22 PM
Hmmm....well my opinion is inbetween....I think blob is overpowered...but its totally underpowered with primary shot...which is why I as a gunner (sometimes..only sometimes a hybrid) use the bowcaster :P. Btw...the DC-15A is supposed to be able to snipe. ...if we do make it have sniper I think we should prolly up something with primary fire.

JRHockney*
06-06-2007, 08:36 PM
Actually removing fire modes is pretty easy to do. Probably about 10 mins of work.

Removing them and replacing them with something entirely new?! Might be easy to replace with sniper mode, but thats no sniper gun. Removing fire modes all together is just taking away features and we don't want to do that. Especially when we've removed alot of things already (that we really should replace with something at some point).

Maxstate
06-07-2007, 02:45 AM
I still like either my/shaman's idea.

We either give it long range and incredible accurate capabilities, or give it a quick 3 shot burst that will decimate a jedi from close up much like a shotgun if aimed well.

Blob is just too base-y to still keep in, no matter how much you lower the damage or heighten the ammo usage. EVEN IF Force was a factor here which it is not then it could still be overridden in a large number of ways. We do want to remove features if they'll bring us even better ones and to tell you the truth I'm all for a good feature right now.

Would it be wrong to say that this has something to do with the MBII clones? If it has then this conversation REALLY doesn't make sense anymore. The MB clones need to reload after like 2-3 blobs and the clone rifle is their primary weapon so they got blob to get balanced out. If they miss, they're dead because their clip can only hold so much energy for blobs.

OJP Gunners don't have that problem nukka. OJP gunners don't need to reload and can get other weapons as easy as they can get the blobgun. OJP Gunners can shoot about 10 blobs out of it with no particurlar hazard for themselves, too.
They also don't really care about when their ammo is out as I've said, so they'll /kill or jump off of something high, respawn and repeat.

I'm not trying to nerf gunners to non-existance. Not trying to nerf gunners at all. I'm just trying to remove a part of this game that I think does not belong in this game.

TheShaman
06-07-2007, 04:49 AM
Indeed, /kill is still a problem, even if you get kicked if you use it too much. I dont' think it's the solution.
Maybe remove 10% of your points everytime you /kill?

razorace
06-07-2007, 01:34 PM
Set the autokick level for suicides to a lower level then.

Secondly, it sounds like the ammo cost of blob is still too low. Assuming we keep blob, we gotta nerf that a bit more. As a temp fix, I'm guessing that a master level clone rifle shouldn't be able to fire more than 3 shots before running out of ammo.

TheShaman
06-07-2007, 02:45 PM
Well, that nerfs pretty much, but like max, I don't think it's the right solution, but as a temp fix, alright.

Maxstate
06-07-2007, 04:15 PM
Well, that nerfs pretty much, but like max, I don't think it's the right solution, but as a temp fix, alright.

Word up, bro.

Tanqexe
06-07-2007, 09:48 PM
Make auto-push work on blobs? I really don't think blobs have a place in OJP, it really is a gamebreaker. Or how about instead of inducing knockdowns, blobs (or some other secondary) make the opponent movements sluggish? That way the clone rifle's primary and secondary fire can work in tandem, and it would make the clone rifle more useful for close and mid-range against both gunners and Jedi.

razorace
06-07-2007, 10:47 PM
A Sticky bomb? :)

TheShaman
06-08-2007, 04:44 AM
Well no, I'd still rather it to have burst fire or aim mode.

Lathain Valtiel
06-08-2007, 03:00 PM
I tested Blob against Jack and Hocks for somewhere in the vicinity of over two hours.

It is by no means overpowered. I'm convinced that everybody who's complaining about it is simply terrible at this and can't think up decent strategy. It's really the only good weapon gunners have left since every single other weapon is terrible for one reason or another; I can't blame them for abusing it.

Somebody really needs to shrink that visual effect radius though, it's painfully misleading.

Maxstate
06-08-2007, 03:27 PM
I disagree with the entirety of your post, but I guess it doesn't matter at all what I say because your two hours compare to the weeks I've put into JUST the blob.

Still open to anyone who wants to let me try out the blob on them, I'm running hamachi and will set up a server if any of you are willing.

Lathain Valtiel
06-08-2007, 04:23 PM
But of course. I looked at it objectively while you on the other hand have quite the agenda... but I digress.

Maxstate
06-08-2007, 04:32 PM
According to you, everyone that has anything to say against gunners or gunwielders has an agenda, and on a side note, you're really one to speak of agendas.
I have no 'agenda'. I just want to stray away from the stupid base gun and saberplay and want to have a more tactical and thought out gameplay that won't hinder FFA too much.

Lathain Valtiel
06-08-2007, 04:47 PM
Oh please. If you were to ask anyone who's played across multiple gametypes and mods with me, you'd know that I have an affinity for both guns and saber, and actually prefer saber most of the time. However, unlike you I've grown out of the 'WAN GUNNERS BLOW NERF ALL GUNZ SABOR FOREVAH" mentality awhile ago...

It's painfully obvious to me that there's an anti-gun mob mentality going around on this forum, as evidenced by the fact that nearly all the 'major balance issues' apparently have as an end 'solution' "NERF GUNNER ITEM OR ABILITY #2432" or "RESTRICT GUNNER ACCESS TO ABILITY #3435".

But again, I digress. You'll argue until the end of time because you don't know any better.

MountPanda
06-08-2007, 04:48 PM
Well, the thing about blob is that you can spam the damned thing without any cooldown. Remeber that time we had none cooldown rockets? Yeah... This is basically the same thing, maybe with less DP damage, less range, etc etc, but it still works as a way to permantly "stun" a Jedi/Gunner. Add a seeker to this combo, and you're killing people faster than 50 Cent walks through bullets. Auto-Push doesn't work, Push costs 20/10fp, and I'm pretty sure they got more than 5-10 shots per riffle. I honestly don't see what's stopping from 1 or 2 or 3 people going 'LOL STALINCLOWN MODE' and spamming a skilled Jedi with Blob without shooting a single primary (primary fire is an oxymoron to clone riffle) shot, yeah...

Lathain Valtiel
06-08-2007, 04:53 PM
Then make autopush apply to blob... frankly if a gunner gets knocked down by their own blob a Jedi has basically won. And frankly saying that it's possible for THREE different people to lock down one Jedi by unleashing a heavy weapons barrage is somehow a problem is inane, it's 3 vs. 1.

As it stands the cooldown on rockets is no longer justified in its current iteration, simply because of the fact that you're force vulnerable in the interim despite any points you've dumped into Absorb.

The reason blob is used is because IT IS 'THE' ONLY DECENT MAIN GUNNER WEAPON LEFT! Bowcaster's speed has been reduced, rocket launcher has a disturbingly long vulnerability period for something that can be readily autopushed, flamer has been nerfed in a lovely total of three different ways when probably one would have easily sufficed...

DarthDie
06-08-2007, 05:03 PM
I as a gunner find bowcaster fine. Rocket launcher...well only time I have used it is today. And flamethrower...I try not to use...cause it seems kind of....overpowered?But that was last time I used it...sounds like it has changed recently?

Maxstate
06-08-2007, 05:03 PM
A fully charged bowcaster shot drains a full bar of DP and already forces the jedi to dodge. If you're having trouble fragging with the other weapons you need to L2P (lol).

If it wasn't for the fact that a seeker is death to jedi, a fully charged tenloss and 2 detpacks were instant killers and the rocket killed anything that was floored I would agree with you.

MountPanda
06-08-2007, 05:18 PM
I was only using 3 people to exgrate my point. So you get to abused by force powers like push/pull etc. The problem is, anything but push/pull is mighty expensive. By the time you get your crosshair on the cloneriffler for pulling, he probally already blobbed you, since he can fire NEAR you. So you've pushed the Clone Riffler down, gud gud. WTF HE CAN BLOB ON GROUND? GIVE ME MOAR PIE! MT, yeah hope he doesnt simply jetpack away when he dodges your saber. Ligthing : So much force, all for knockdown after which the clown can blob the **** out of you? Right. Charge him upfront with glorious 300 Spartans battle cries? I remeber blob is perma knockdown... Grip? Get close enough to him to do it, and I'll give you a cookie (and jetpack wh00r anyone?)

So how the hell do you counter Blobbers as Jedi? Uhhh...


E-11/Bowcaster are actually pretty useful, you just gotta make sure they actually HIT, or else your ammo is wasted ;p. Disruptor is instant kill when fully charged... And you got gadgets if you have to fight Jedi up close.

Lathain Valtiel
06-08-2007, 05:24 PM
...The fact that a rocket kills anything floored is not much of a consolation since you most likely have to use something else to floor them due to the vulnerability, such as (wait for it...) BLOB. Further, I already know how to play quite well, thank you very much, considering I've more than once annihilated you back on 009r so hard that you whined.

And a seeker is mostly good in combination with other objects, most primarily, surprise, a knockdown via blob (and to a lesser extent rocket launcher). That however is justified seeing as how it's a SUPPORT ITEM.

Detpack and Tenloss do not do what you claim in the latest revision from Jack, I just made certain personally. So there goes your argument. Nor does a fully charged bowcaster force dodge. And I actually use the bowcaster as my primary blaster-type weapon.

---

Jetpack has been changed as early as 5-6 AM this morning, so all further arguments on that front are currently irrelevant. And I was actually calling for a nerf to jetpack really loudly anyway. And Razor's presumably removing blob fire when knocked down anyhow.

razorace
06-08-2007, 05:26 PM
We changed a lot of the gunner behavior because we're looking for something different than Q3-style, bunny hoping, run-and-gun. It's a different style of play and it's going to take a while to work out the kinks.

Secondly, the standard gun play seems to have problems. Namely, the system where hitting a jedi quickly after they block is supposed to increase the amount of DP damage. Unfortunately, I don't know about these things until beta testers inform me of such situations.

Finally, guys, don't fight or make things personal. It just scares people off and we can't afford to do that now. I'm going to start closing threads if things spin out of control more. :(

MountPanda
06-08-2007, 05:33 PM
That's my que to stop ;p

Still, the vote stands 9-5 and one CAKECHEESE.

Lathain Valtiel
06-08-2007, 05:36 PM
Ahahaha, a vote... tsk tsk.

JRHockney*
06-08-2007, 06:34 PM
From my playing last night, Blob and flamethrower are the only weapons that can really beat force spam without using other items (seeker and sentry mainly) and they still fail at a 2 to 1 ratio, lathain was nearly dead accurate all the time with them. What does this say? One, blob is not overpowered (though still think it does too much DP damage compared to the others). Two, Either our other guns are too underpowered or, Three, there needs to be more situations in which the other weapons can do more DP damage. Other situations might be to do more damage getting hit while running AND swinging, and/or maybe since we want to promote lesser Q3 gameplay, make walkng and standing shots do a little more DP damage (since it would improve your accuracy and shot placement most likely).
That running and swinging thing I think is more important because I think jedi should have to be a bit more careful on there approach rather than just running people over all the time.

The only way I'm in favor of changing the blob or removing it is if we make the other weapons more useful or replace the blob with something as useful or more useful. And I really do what it be able to be used less since it is a silly way to have to play too often.

Lathain Valtiel
06-08-2007, 07:11 PM
Blob does not really do what people seem to claim it does. I had to empty half my clip at Hocks, who was standing still, to off him with blob. Call me crazy but that's not overpowered since blob is vulnerable to simply getting ripped out of your hands via pull, which Jack demonstrated wonderfully. And frankly, once you're pulled down you're finished. This is especially true now that jetpack has been retooled.

Also I made it my business to fire at Jack for several seconds with my bowcaster and seeker. And sometimes a sentry too. He did not die often to that combo alone, I had to couple it with blobs and flames of opportunity.

Finally, apparently ramming a rocket to your back while you're in the middle of dueling is more often than not simply not enough to off you unless you're bad off to begin with. Which is inexcusable considering the fire delay plus force vulnerability. One of those has got to go, and frankly the former seems best.

Maxstate
06-08-2007, 07:17 PM
I guess we all have come to different conclusions then.

All those combinations are more than enough to flick a standing nevermind running jedi off the scoreboard, this week's, and last week's weapon tests with around 6-8 people have proven that.

Very much agreed on pull though, it shouldn't work that easily.

Lathain Valtiel
06-08-2007, 07:19 PM
Pfft, and apparently your tests prove something and ours don't, right?

Maxstate
06-08-2007, 07:20 PM
I never said anything that would even hint to that, just reinforcing the opinion that my team shares about the blob.

Lathain Valtiel
06-08-2007, 07:22 PM
this week's, and last week's weapon tests with around 6-8 people have proven that.

Nevermind that me and Jack were using the latest revision circa yesterday 1:30 AM, I'm sure.

If you want to come play with me and Jack, be my guest.

razorace
06-08-2007, 08:08 PM
The blob....IN MY PANTS!

Anyway, yeah, jedi shouldn't be able to block hits from a seeker, sentry, and blaster all at once.