PDA

View Full Version : Using Opposite Force Powers


Rockstar
06-07-2007, 11:43 PM
QUESTION: Why can't/don't light siders use dark powers and vice versa?


This is a question that i think might produce some interesting answers. Firstly, there is no "can't":

1) Darth Vader uses force protect against blaster fire in Ep5
2) Luke Skywalker uses force grip against two guards in Ep6


All force users use the force in battle to predict future events (blaster fire, incoming grenades, an attack from behind and light saber attacks). The force flows through the user and clouds the ability of the opponent to read them. This is why a Jedi CANNOT be a good dualist and poor in force powers and vice versa, because the ability to dual well is derived from one's physical and mental strength speed with the force. Anakin's powers doubled by Ep3 and he defeated Dooku purely with his saber. This is because strength in the force is strength in saber combat. This ability to predict and cloud is a trait of all force users. The other trait is to immediately maninipulate one's surroundings, i.e. force push, pull, and at a pinch, force jump.

My opinion is that powers draw on the light and dark side because they are 'the way' of the light and dark side.

The light side believes entirely on becoming one with the force in peace and virtue and letting the force flow through you. Heal is a meditation and powers like protect use the force to preserve and fight in harmony WITH the force. Through this harmony they succeed in combat through the aid of the force. The ideal is to "let the force flow through you" and make you stronger than anything else and be vigilant when doing so.


For the dark side, instead of fighting WITH the force, use it as a weapon to directly succeed in combat. They use it to channel their rage and strike actual damage to their opponent through means of grip and lightning. The ideal is to use the force to crush those weaker to further one's own power.


To illustrate this, lets look at a combination of force users. Remember that all force users use the force in battle as explained at the top. However, actual force powers are near useless in battle with another Jedi due to the constaints of time, concentration and the fact that lightning can be blocked with a light saber. This is why the only power we commonly see in battle is a push. Instead, users purk themselves up in battle. Dark: by rage and feeding anger. Light: by feeling the strength of the force flowing freely (simulated in KOTOR by force valor and the later)

Dark vs Dark
Obviously going to be a stream of lightning vs another stream of lightning... the stronger and more aggressive dark sider will win and claim what is there's. Such is the way of the dark side. If sabers were involved then powers would be useless though.

Light vs Light
Ok... this matchup is a contradiction in itself... anyway. Both would channel the force through them to focus their ability.

Dark vs Light
This really highlights the ideals of the Jedi and Sith in a nutshell.

Dark sider uses their hate as a weapon and uses lightning. Light sider absorbs it and turns it into energy they can use and becomes one with them, turning it from something of hate into something of peace. Dark sider persists with more hate and presses harder. Light sider turns the hate around and instead of creating something offensive of their own, reflect the darkness back to the dark sider.

In terms of saber combat, we see the differences very clearly. In Ep1, the intermission with Qui-Gon and Darth Maul. Qui-Gon is mediatating, feeding his force flow, whilst Maul is pacing like a panther, feeding his hate. This is the ideal that feeds both Jedi and Sith throughout the whole battle. In the end, it depends who is stronger in the force as to who will win.


NOTE: force powers are not always EXACTLY on par with saber ability. They are always very close but you could technically have a matchup of almost identically equal opponents say:

fighter 1) saber 95% force 105%
fighter 2) saber 105% force 95%

I couldn't imagine this margine stretching more than this...

Kas'!m
06-08-2007, 09:50 AM
Mace and Yoda use the dark side a lot.

Ecthelion
06-08-2007, 09:53 AM
First of all, an important thing to note is that Luke used Force Grip to avoid detainment by Jabba's guards. It's quite likely it left them in a trance-like state so that they wouldn't warn Jabba that he was coming. His use of Force Grip was akin to Mind Trick in Jedi Outcast (and Academy) - it wasn't intended to harm the guards much, but to let him get past. Personally, I think the reason they used Force Grip is because Lucas and Co. hadn't come up with the idea for Force Push yet. If they had more Force Powers in their repertoire, they probably would have picked one that was "less evil." In any case, Vader has always used Force Grip as an outright weapon. He either used it to threaten or kill someone (ANH, ESB), or as an outlet of his anger (ROTS).

One could make the argument that the power itself isn't evil - it's how it's used. But I'm not sure I agree. We've never seen a lightsider use lightning (no, I don't count the books here because many of them are poorly written and contradict the films). I don't see how you can use lightning for non-destructive purposes either. I would say Force Grip is inherently Dark too, and that we should think of Mind Trick (or something similar) being used in ROTJ in place of Force Grip.

Mace and Yoda use the dark side a lot.
Examples?

SilentScope001
06-08-2007, 10:00 AM
Examples?

Rumor has it, if I recall correctly, that Mace Windu uses Vappad, some Dark Sided sword fighting technicque, and that Mace Windu enjoys tasting the Dark Side. That's just rumor though, in one book called "Shatterpoint", where Mace Windu is able to see into the future a la Kreia. Frankly, I don't believe it.
===
Using DS Powers as a LSer is not possible except in the KOTOR series, and then, you could dismiss it as noncanon gameplay. Using LS powers as a Dark Sider, however, seems reasonable, altough why? You fell to the Dark Side and gained aboslute power, why use the outdated Jedi tactics?

I also claim that Gray Jedi are able to use LS and DS powers, but since they strattle one or another side, remaining netural, they are weaker than a regural Jedi or Sith. It's the only way to stop people from unreasonably thinking Gray Jedi are the most powerful of beings...

Ecthelion
06-08-2007, 11:16 AM
Rumor has it, if I recall correctly, that Mace Windu uses Vappad, some Dark Sided sword fighting technicque, and that Mace Windu enjoys tasting the Dark Side. That's just rumor though, in one book called "Shatterpoint", where Mace Windu is able to see into the future a la Kreia. Frankly, I don't believe it.

I had forgotten about that. I agree with your assessment, too. It seemed to me like that was just an explanation for his lightsaber skills. Why can't he just be an excellent duelist without "almost giving in to the Dark Side"? Surely someone so high on the Jedi Council would not flirt with the Dark Side. I don't care what the technique is called, but it's silly to make it a "Dark Side" technique.


I also claim that Gray Jedi are able to use LS and DS powers, but since they strattle one or another side, remaining netural, they are weaker than a regural Jedi or Sith. It's the only way to stop people from unreasonably thinking Gray Jedi are the most powerful of beings...
Or you can just do like I do, and ignore any "C canon" that doesn't seem to agree with the movies. The concept of Gray Jedi doesn't necessarily conflict with the movies, but it comes very close. Most of the assumptions that have arisen from the concept conflict with the movies.

JawaJoey
06-09-2007, 01:46 AM
Mace Windu did use Vappad, which was considered to flirt dangerously with the dark side due to the amount of aggression involved, but it was just that, danger. If anyone can overcome the danger of falling to the dark side, it is a Jedi Master and member of the council. That doesn't mean Mace Windu actually drew upon the Dark Side at all, though.

And Yoda... there's not really any argument to be made that he had anything to do with the Dark Side.



I totally agree with the OP about the nature of the force powers. In KOTOR and other sources, the Sith openly state that they see the Force as a tool and a weapon. It is the Jedi philosophy that it is a guide.
"The Jedi serve the force, the force serves us" --Yuthura Ban says something like that in the first game, and both her and Uthar Wynn elaborate extensively on exactly that idea.

But I don't think that the powers themselves are evil. The different philosophies behind how the force should be used, sure, but not the powers themselves. I tend to agree with the Jedi Knight series. In Jedi Outcast, Kyle gets access to a broad range of Force powers without being evil. And in Jedi Academy, Jaden can choose between light and dark powers, with a warning that "Be careful, powers aren't inherently good or evil, it's how you use them" from Luke and Kyle (but actually the game developers). The point is though, what defines your path in the end is not the powers you use, but the choices you make.


Let's look at Luke in ROTJ. He used grip, but to what end? To get the guards out of his way. He didn't kill them, because there was no need to kill them. To kill them to get them out of his way would have been bad, but what he did was not. It was a quick, quiet method to get by without having to figure out how to do a mind trick on a very alien species who can't speak basic.

Lightning is harder. There is no non-destructive use for force lightning. And even if a Jedi had to kill someone, as they often do in bad times, lightning is not a preferable method. It isn't efficient killing, it's torturous. Choke would be more efficient and quick, and without the smell of burnt flesh. For a Jedi, pushing someone down and knocking them out, or cutting off a limb is often enough to end a fight, so why kill them slowly and painfully? What I'm getting at is, there is no reason for a light Jedi to use lightning. The power is useful only for death and pain, which (outside videogames) are never the Jedi's objectives. Could a Jedi use it to kill someone though? Why not? How would it be any different from cutting off someones head with a lightsaber?


Some powers though simply require more strength or emotional focus. A Jedi gains strength from serenity. You can see Yoda visibly calm himself as he defends against lightning in both AOTC and ROTS. A Sith gains strength from passion and hatred. You can see that in Palpatine when he uses lightning. Without intense hatred, you can't conjure lightning. And the better a Jedi you are, the less passion you have, so the inability to use lightning or other dark powers really stems from a practical inability. A light Jedi doesn't meet the requirements to kill someone with a thought, and a dark Jedi could never calm himself to the point where he could simply reflect attacks purely in defense.

True_Avery
06-09-2007, 06:21 AM
According to G Canon and books about G Canon, the Jedi way is the correct 100% way of looking at the force in two pieces: Light and Dark, Light being correct. There is no in between in G Canon. G Canon is absolute.

And that is my biggest pet peeve with Star Wars and particularly George Lucas. He was born into a strong Methodist family and studied varied Eastern Religions to get his spirituality, creating the idea of "The Force" out of this and creating the views of the Jedi. This reflects greatly on the Force as having a "good" and "evil" side, as a definitive "good" and "evil" is often a Religious viewpoint of the universe.

Now, I am going to say this upfront: I think looking at anything or trying to split the universe into "good" and "evil" is simply an excuse to look at the universe through a crack in the door. I respect people who do it and all of their beliefs, but it is personal preference that I see everything as neutral. In Star Wars, George cut out or didn't even possibly consider a Gray in-between as his religious views probably do not see the concept of "good" and "evil" as relative, as I and so others do.

I, in my fanon writing, see the Force as sharing the concept of every action having an equal and opposite reaction. Applies to the Force and its influence over life, every action has an relative "good" and "bad" response that effects the Force itself. Similar to Kreia's view of the Force at times. As every action would be "good" and "bad", every action is Gray Neutral at all times. The Force uses the "good" and "bad" that happens in life everyday to keep balance and harmony, not catering to any side but rather them all at once. When the beliefs absorbed by the Force begin to unbalance it and break the harmony (which happens a lot in the actual history), it has beings born that balance it back to harmony once more. These beings are called "Chosen Ones." Yes, Anakin Skywalker was the "Chosen One" but the idea that only one "Chosen One" would be born in the history of the universe for only 1 of dozens of unbalances in the Force is simply silly and yet another religious view placed into Star Wars lore.

Some of that contradicts my idea of there being no "good" and "evil", but I am trying to hold onto at least some of the G Canon there. The balance of the Force is a circle of Black, White, and Grays in between to me. When there is balance, the amount of Black and White is equal with Gray in between. When the Dark Side gains more influence, there is more Black than White but gray is still there as there must always be some White left in the end, the Gray keeping the Black and White from destroying each other.
Alignments are simply based upon your emotion, point of view, and beliefs. The Jedi like to see themselves as saints, and they cut out emotions for reasons. Why? Because anger leads to the "evil" side of the Force. The Force, both "good" and "evil" is within all people and all the powers of the Force are capable of being used by both Sith and Jedi alike. Jedi can use powers that can be seen as Dark, and Sith can be seen using powers that could be considered Light. As JawaJoey said, it might just be possibly for near any Jedi to produce Force Lightning if they felt extreme hate, displeasure, or simply joy of causing pain upon another being. Self preservation or a deep care for someone could both be used to use Force Heal. Emerald Lightning is Force Lightning used by Jedi like Plo Koon. It is the same power, just given a different name to suit different beliefs. A fall to the Dark Side is simply giving in to your emotions and being hateful, angry, etc all the time, thus having access to powers given to you by the Force as it caters to your emotions.

An absolute real Gray Force user who could use both sides of the Force would simply have to believe there is a neutral path and have extensive control over their emotions. Not once in Star Wars have we really seen any Jedi or Sith believe there is no good or evil. They are always aligned more to one side or the other. Religious point of view play large parts in Star Wars, but the beliefs are always seen as being Black and White. The two sides are the only we have really seen because the two sides are the sides that are highly looked at in Star Wars, but if someone were to believe in a neutral, having an equally dark and light side in them then they could possibly have control over both. The Light is not a grand savior, just as the Dark is not a drug or cancer that consumes and destroys. The Force is emotion, beliefs, "human nature" and life itself.

But, as I said, such Fanon and beliefs contradict G Canon and all of the Religious views of a single man who saw it upon himself to make the most close minded view of the world into a living power and story with no opportunity for a neutral view. I respect his view and the view of others, but deeply wish that my neutral view was not seen as stupid and non-canon in both real life and Star Wars.

Ecthelion
06-10-2007, 11:19 AM
You bring up some interesting points, and in real life, I agree with you. Religion tends to relegate people to little niches of behavior, and doesn't leave any room for differing viewpoints. But Star Wars isn't about real life. Star Wars, like any fairytale, is about good versus evil. If Lucas started throwing neutral characters in the movies, the plot would be too complicated. Star Wars is a fantasy, plain and simple. One of the reasons I like Star Wars is for its simple fairytale view of good and evil. Of course that's not how real life works.

This is why I'm against things like "emerald lightning"; they don't have any place in the Star Wars universe. You might see such things as trying to show a more neutral view of the Force, but since Star Wars is a simple tale of good vs. evil, I see such things as a cheap way to give "good" Jedi "evil" powers. That would be an interesting thing to establish in another "universe", but it just doesn't fit Star Wars. It's fine to have a group of people in Star Wars that don't see things in black and white. But they shouldn't be a major component of a story. Once you have "gray" people as main characters, it starts "cheapening" the good versus evil theme. Star Wars authors should stop trying to be profound. Star Wars isn't about philosophy.
I respect his view and the view of others, but deeply wish that my neutral view was not seen as stupid and non-canon in both real life and Star Wars.
I have no choice but to see your view (as well as books and comics that tread a similar path) as "stupid" in the realm of Star Wars, because a simple fairytale (let's face it, Star Wars is no work of Shakespeare) doesn't have any place for neutral main characters. However, as I've said, I agree with you wholeheartedly in the context of real life. Only foolish people would dismiss your views in real life. Nothing can be seen so clearly and in such "black and white" terms when it comes to reality.

By the way, an interesting side note to this is how Lucas changed the view of the Jedi in the prequels. It didn't take deep examination of the movies to see that the Jedi were partly to blame for their own fall. Their arrogance paved the way for their demise. Lucas didn't go as far as making the heroes neutral, but he showed that even the "best of the best" make mistakes.

JawaJoey
06-11-2007, 01:11 AM
The Old Jedi Order did indeed make mistakes. Not really in their philosophy of the force, but in their philosophy of teaching and the organization of the order itself. Through completely light-sided means, they could have prevented Anakin from falling. The traditional ways didn't work for someone like Anakin, partly because he was so old when he began training. What Anakin needed was different from what the Jedi Order was willing to do, and their strict, traditional dogma *forced* Anakin onto a path that too easily led him to his fall to the Dark Side. If they hadn't been so arrogant or set in their ways, everything could have been prevented.

Even after the purge, Yoda and Ben still didn't fully understand the mistakes they'd made. Yoda especially kept trying to teach Luke using the old way, and would have forsaken Luke's friends for the sake of Luke's training. That should not be the Jedi way.

Luke though, he knew through instinct what had to be done, and he established the New Jedi Order based on what he knew was right, even as he looked to his mentors for guidance. The New and Old Jedi Orders were very different, but was on eof them Dark Sided? No. The Old Jedi Order was mistaken, and could have been correct without being evil, but they couldn't see it.

But that speaks nothing of good and evil itself, only that simply always being good isn't enough to always be right.

SilentScope001
06-11-2007, 11:12 AM
I'm going to have to agree with Ecthelion in saying that letting LS people use DS Force Powers would cheapen the expereience. However, I would also agree with TA of having more morally amgibious (note, NOT Netural) characters.

For example, look at Kreia. When she turned DS and became the final boss, some people (not all) still see her as a very great Jedi who tried to do the most heroic deed. And when Revan turned DS, some people, in retospect, sees Revan as doing the right thing. But both Kreia and Revan did not use any LS Powers at all. They were aligned to the Dark Side totally. But they were "Good", in a manner of speaking.

And what Vrook and the Jedi Council did? They did not intervene in the Mandalorian Wars, and I agree with their desicion. Many people do not, and call them "Evil", but at the same time, using Force Sight let you realize that all of the Jedi Council are composed of Light Siders.

My belief is that while Good and Evil is relative, LS and DS is concerte. Dark Side is the Self, LS is caring about the galaxy and what the Force wants (it is the natural state of the Force, after all).

The reason I don't ignore the concept of Grey Jedi entirely is because I do dislike the Space Opera of Star Wars. I really do like TSL's plotline after all. But, well, I also understand that the Space Opera of Star Wars is also good as well, and I really don't like seeing Grey Jedi as well. I like to see totally LS Jedi do horrible acts, and totally DS Sith do very good deeds, to make people start questioning, but I would also like to stress that the LS Jedi is LS, and the DS Sith is DS. Good and evil can remain in the domain of the beholder, but the Force alignment you side cannot change, and you usually must choose.

kata_mad
06-11-2007, 05:54 PM
To be honest I am not even sure a 'Grey Jedi' is even possible, Although I am drawn to the possibility that the Force is one and its nature is deceided by the user.

However if you think about it the only 'Greysiders' have been from the KOTOR games in Jolee and kreia but although classed as neutral they favoured one side over the other Jolee was still a good honest guy clearly on the LS dispite what he may say to the contary, As for Kreia it clear which side she favoured since she was the final boss in TSL and she was quite manipulative through out the game.

So typically I think neutral would be impossible for the user to maintain as they will always favour one side to the other and remember a wise frogs words:

"Once you start down the dark path forever will it dominate your destiny"

Obi-Wan Baloney
06-12-2007, 09:57 AM
Rumor has it, if I recall correctly, that Mace Windu uses Vappad, some Dark Sided sword fighting technicque, and that Mace Windu enjoys tasting the Dark Side. That's just rumor though, in one book called "Shatterpoint", where Mace Windu is able to see into the future a la Kreia. Frankly, I don't believe it.
===
Using DS Powers as a LSer is not possible except in the KOTOR series, and then, you could dismiss it as noncanon gameplay. Using LS powers as a Dark Sider, however, seems reasonable, altough why? You fell to the Dark Side and gained aboslute power, why use the outdated Jedi tactics?

I also claim that Gray Jedi are able to use LS and DS powers, but since they strattle one or another side, remaining netural, they are weaker than a regural Jedi or Sith. It's the only way to stop people from unreasonably thinking Gray Jedi are the most powerful of beings...

Mace made and used Vaapad in order to channel his darkness into a light side
aggresive attack.Depa Billaba and Sora Bulq were warned by Mace for they were using it also. They eventually fell to the Dark Side.

Prime
06-12-2007, 11:09 AM
QUESTION: Why can't/don't light siders use dark powers and vice versa? The short answer: Jedi attempt to keep the Force in its natural balance, which directly conflicts with the use of the dark side. They can, but don't.

Sith do use dark side and "regular" powers.

1) Darth Vader uses force protect against blaster fire in Ep5But how do we know that? It could be just as simple as deflecting a blaster bolt with his gauntlet.

This is why a Jedi CANNOT be a good dualist and poor in force powers and vice versa, because the ability to dual well is derived from one's physical and mental strength speed with the force. I don't think that is true necessarily. Much has to do with the duelist's skill with a blade, and isn't entirely based on force potential. Dooku didn't rely on speed or strength when using Form II, yet was one of the best duelists in the order. Kenobi was not as powerful as Anakin yet defeated him.

Anakin's powers doubled by Ep3 and he defeated Dooku purely with his saber. This is because strength in the force is strength in saber combat. But the issue there was the Dooku's use of Form II was not a good match against the power applied by Anakin's use of Form V.

Heal is a meditation and powers like protect use the force to preserve and fight in harmony WITH the force. Are these powers even seen outside of the games? I can't think of any instances...

But point taken. :)

For the dark side, instead of fighting WITH the force, use it as a weapon to directly succeed in combat. But isn't Force Push fighting with the Force as a weapon?

However, actual force powers are near useless in battle with another Jedi due to the constaints of time, concentration and the fact that lightning can be blocked with a light saber.

This is why the only power we commonly see in battle is a push. But push is a force power, and we see it used all the time in battle. :confused:

First of all, an important thing to note is that Luke used Force Grip to avoid detainment by Jabba's guards. But perhaps he was using the dark side. Later in the film he was falling to the dark side, and had to pull himself back.

It's quite likely it left them in a trance-like state so that they wouldn't warn Jabba that he was coming. I'm not sure why it would be a trance-like state. Much more likely they at best became unconsious due to lack of oxygen, and at worst were killed. That is what we see in every other application of it (Captain Antilles and Padme for example).

His use of Force Grip was akin to Mind Trick in Jedi Outcast (and Academy) - it wasn't intended to harm the guards much, but to let him get past.I don't see how it is akin at all. One power does physical harm and the other does not. And Luke appears to harm the guards, enough so that they at least pass out.

In any case, Vader has always used Force Grip as an outright weapon. He either used it to threaten or kill someone (ANH, ESB), or as an outlet of his anger (ROTS).But why is that different that what Luke did to the guards? In both cases the recipient was hurt.

But I don't think that the powers themselves are evil. The different philosophies behind how the force should be used, sure, but not the powers themselves.But dark side powers, such as lightning, are inherently evil, because of the way they are generated. Lightning is generated by using anger to corrupt the Force and use it to harm itself. That is an evil act. It doesn't matter whether it is used to kill a child or help Grandma recharge her car battery. The generation of it is evil, and the intent does not matter.

I tend to agree with the Jedi Knight series. In Jedi Outcast, Kyle gets access to a broad range of Force powers without being evil. And in Jedi Academy, Jaden can choose between light and dark powers, with a warning that "Be careful, powers aren't inherently good or evil, it's how you use them" from Luke and Kyle (but actually the game developers). Games are a tricky thing, since canon can take a backseat to gameplay.

It was a quick, quiet method to get by without having to figure out how to do a mind trick on a very alien species who can't speak basic.But there is no indication in any source that I know of that says that mind trick is language based (Anakin and the reek, for example). And mind trick would be much less harmful than choking, would it not? :)

Could a Jedi use it to kill someone though? Why not? How would it be any different from cutting off someones head with a lightsaber?Because killing someone with a lightsaber does not require the corruption of the Force to do so.

According to G Canon and books about G Canon, the Jedi way is the correct 100% way of looking at the force in two pieces: Light and Dark, Light being correct. There is no in between in G Canon. G Canon is absolute.Just a nitpicky point, but in G canon there is no "light side" per say, only the natural Force and the dark side. Semantics perhaps, but I think it is an important point for viewing what the dark side actually is.

And that is my biggest pet peeve with Star Wars and particularly George Lucas. He was born into a strong Methodist family and studied varied Eastern Religions to get his spirituality, creating the idea of "The Force" out of this and creating the views of the Jedi. This reflects greatly on the Force as having a "good" and "evil" side, as a definitive "good" and "evil" is often a Religious viewpoint of the universe.It isn't because of his religious views that star wars is what it is. It is because he set out to create a mythical story, and so researched and incorporated many common mythical themes and concepts. Perhaps the greatest of which is good vs. evil. Obviously, Star Wars is by no means original in this regard.

The Force uses the "good" and "bad" that happens in life everyday to keep balance and harmony, not catering to any side but rather them all at once. When the beliefs absorbed by the Force begin to unbalance it and break the harmony (which happens a lot in the actual history), it has beings born that balance it back to harmony once more. These beings are called "Chosen Ones."Note that the balance refered to by the Chosen One prophecy is not a balance of equal light and dark parts, but a stable, natural state. The absence of the dark side (via the destruction of the Sith) leaves the Force in its natural state.

single man who saw it upon himself to make the most close minded view of the world into a living power and story with no opportunity for a neutral view.There is plenty of room for a neutral view in the story, just not with the Force. There are a lot of characters that are neither good or evil.

Through completely light-sided means, they could have prevented Anakin from falling...If they hadn't been so arrogant or set in their ways, everything could have been prevented.Actually, it was because they ignored their ways on several occasions that Anakin fell. The rules were in place to prevent such a thing from happening.

Even after the purge, Yoda and Ben still didn't fully understand the mistakes they'd made. Yoda especially kept trying to teach Luke using the old way, and would have forsaken Luke's friends for the sake of Luke's training. That should not be the Jedi way.Why not? Why should the Jedi put their own needs above the greater good? And the point wasn't to forsake his friends for the sake of training. There is a whole scene in ESB that explains why he shouldn't go.

Luke though, he knew through instinct what had to be done, and he established the New Jedi Order based on what he knew was right. But much of what he "knew was right" has turned out to be wrong, as he admits.

The New and Old Jedi Orders were very different, but was on eof them Dark Sided? No. But the teachings of the NJO has led to many more dark siders (and those flirting with it) in such a small timespan: Desann, Kueller, Brakiss, Alema Rar, Zekk, Welk, Jacen, and on and on.

The Old Jedi Order was mistaken, and could have been correct without being evil, but they couldn't see it.The funny thing is now the NJO is starting to learn the lessons that the old order did millenia ago. Even Luke admits this.

However, I would also agree with TA of having more morally amgibious (note, NOT Netural) characters.There are some good ones now though: Han in SW, Boba Fett, etc.

Obi-Wan Baloney
06-12-2007, 11:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockstar
Heal is a meditation and powers like protect use the force to preserve and fight in harmony WITH the force.
Are these powers even seen outside of the games? I can't think of any instances...

But point taken.

Ben Kenobi uses it in the Junland Wastes to heal Luke by placing his hand over his face. Sidious sort of uses it on Anakin in Ep. 3 when Vader is almost dead.

Ecthelion
06-12-2007, 12:22 PM
But perhaps he was using the dark side. Later in the film he was falling to the dark side, and had to pull himself back.

Perhaps, but look at him as he used it. He appeared composed, and in control of his emotions. On the other hand, when Luke was tempted to give in during the confrontation with Vader and the Emperor, he clearly appeared emotional (as did Anakin, every time he flirted with the dark side).


I'm not sure why it would be a trance-like state. Much more likely they at best became unconsious due to lack of oxygen, and at worst were killed. That is what we see in every other application of it (Captain Antilles and Padme for example).

But there is no indication in any source that I know of that says that mind trick is language based (Anakin and the reek, for example). And mind trick would be much less harmful than choking, would it not? :)

I only said that because it's obvious they were incapacitated, since they didn't alert anyone to Luke's approach. I don't think Luke killed them, since there was no need. It's possible Gamorreans are hard to trick, so Luke choked them instead.

Another possibility is that it's difficult or impossible for Luke to mind trick multiple people at once. I hate to bring Star Trek into this, but consider Spock. He can give people the neck-pinch quickly and easily, but a mind-meld takes much more focus. I realize mind trick is obviously quick to use, but it probably takes a lot of focus, and may not be possible to trick two or more people at once. Also, when we saw Obi-Wan use it in ANH, he didn't have to do much. All he had to do is make the officer "see" something on the droids that convinced him they weren't the right ones. When he was on the Death Star, he wasn't even using mind trick, he just projected a noise the troopers could hear. Luke, on the other hand, would have had to convince the guards that he was one of Jabba's people or at least not himself. Add to that the fact that they would have detained him and summoned Bib Fortuna, and now Luke has 3 minds to trick. That's a lot more difficult situation.


I don't see how it is akin at all. One power does physical harm and the other does not. And Luke appears to harm the guards, enough so that they at least pass out.

I see a similarity because of Luke's purpose in using it. He wasn't trying to kill the guards, he was trying to get past them.


But why is that different that what Luke did to the guards? In both cases the recipient was hurt.

True, but how much were the guards actually hurt? Jabba likely had a strict training program, so they were used to physical pain. That's a lot different than choking a pregnant senator.


But dark side powers, such as lightning, are inherently evil, because of the way they are generated. Lightning is generated by using anger to corrupt the Force and use it to harm itself. That is an evil act. It doesn't matter whether it is used to kill a child or help Grandma recharge her car battery. The generation of it is evil, and the intent does not matter.

I agree with you for the most part. But why did Luke appear so composed and peaceful when he choked the guards? Lucas has always made it very obvious visually when Jedi are giving in to the Dark Side.

Everything else I agree with, Prime.

Vaelastraz
06-12-2007, 02:59 PM
T
Note that the balance refered to by the Chosen One prophecy is not a balance of equal light and dark parts, but a stable, natural state. The absence of the dark side (via the destruction of the Sith) leaves the Force in its natural state.


So why is there just one prophecy and not hundreds? It seems like darksiders are a lot more common to warrant a "prophecy" each time. That prophecy theme is apparently inconsistent with anything outside of the movies.



Through games I get the impression that there's the the lightside and the darkside. And the balance is somewhere in the middle.
In the movies though, it's the force and the corruption of the force, the dark side.

I'm in favour of the first interpretation, but I acknowledge that it's not the way it is presented in the movies, which imo outweigh the games in what is "correct" about Starwars.

Ecthelion
06-12-2007, 05:14 PM
That prophecy theme is apparently inconsistent with anything outside of the movies.
Most non-movie sources are inconsistent with the movies. They run the gamut from Boba Fett surviving the Sarlacc to Luke falling to the Dark Side (Dark Empire is surely a low point in Star Wars comics history), and are beter off ignored, in my opinion. Personally, I disregard most non-movie sources. The few Star Wars books I've read and liked (Thrawn novels and a few others) I think of as being true to Star Wars. I treat the other stuff (such as the Vong novels and most of the comics) as a separate universe like George Lucas does. Even the short summaries I've read of most of those books and comics are enough to make it clear to me that they don't fit in with Star Wars.

I consider games a special case. I enjoy most Star Wars games (especially Jedi Outcast, KOTOR1 and KOTOR2, and all of the X-Wing games), but I usually don't hold them to the same critical assessment as I do novels and such. For one thing, most of the games I've played don't use the characters from the movies (Jedi Outcast does, but they fit in with their movie "selves" pretty well). I'm not sure I have any other reasons. Maybe I'm just being unfair, since I'm a gamer. Anyway, I suppose you could say the books, comics, and games are true to the spirit of Star Wars, but don't always fit in with the movies. I still think KOTOR1 fits Star Wars better than Dark Empire does, even with Jolee being a "neutral" Jedi.

Sorry to turn this into a canon discussion, but it is inevitable when talking about force powers, because they are portrayed so differently in the movies, books and comics, and games.

Prime
06-13-2007, 12:47 PM
Ben Kenobi uses it in the Junland Wastes to heal Luke by placing his hand over his face. Sidious sort of uses it on Anakin in Ep. 3 when Vader is almost dead.But this is conjecture, is it not? Is there any source that makes this clear, or are they "just checking them"? There probably isn't either way, so the case can be made...

I don't think Luke killed them, since there was no need. It's possible Gamorreans are hard to trick, so Luke choked them instead.The dark side truly is the quick and easy path! :D In any event, I would argue that gamorreans fit the bill of "weak minded".

Another possibility is that it's difficult or impossible for Luke to mind trick multiple people at once...Also, when we saw Obi-Wan use it in ANH, he didn't have to do much. All he had to do is make the officer "see" something on the droids that convinced him they weren't the right ones.This last situation is likely an example of multiple uses of mind trick at the same time. I don't think that it makes much sense that Kenobi would only affect the one. In that case it is clearly possible.

True, but how much were the guards actually hurt?Enough to restrict the air and blood to their brains, causing them to pass out.

Jabba likely had a strict training program, so they were used to physical pain. That's a lot different than choking a pregnant senator.But that is moral relativism to say that it isn't as bad to hurt a bad or tough person as it is a good or weak person. But I would argue that the Force doesn't differentiate between the two, and we have seen what happens when a force user uses moral relativism...

I agree with you for the most part. But why did Luke appear so composed and peaceful when he choked the guards? Lucas has always made it very obvious visually when Jedi are giving in to the Dark Side.Dooku sure looks pretty calm when he is throwing all that lightning around...

So why is there just one prophecy and not hundreds? It seems like darksiders are a lot more common to warrant a "prophecy" each time. But in the films, there are only two dark siders. There are the Sith, and no one else. And when they were destroyed, there were no dark siders left.

That prophecy theme is apparently inconsistent with anything outside of the movies.To a large extent it is, like Ecthelion says. That is why Lucas says everything outside of the movies is pretty much a seperate universe to the films. :)

I consider games a special case. I enjoy most Star Wars games (especially Jedi Outcast, KOTOR1 and KOTOR2, and all of the X-Wing games), but I usually don't hold them to the same critical assessment as I do novels and such.The "problem" with games is that even though they are the same level of canon as the novels and comics, only the story is. Gameplay mechanics are not. But it is sometimes hard to tell what falls into the story category and what falls into the mechanics category.

Sorry to turn this into a canon discussion, but it is inevitable when talking about force powers, because they are portrayed so differently in the movies, books and comics, and games.Indeed! What is canon is very relevant to the discussion. If we are going to debate it, we might as well "use the facts." :D

Ecthelion
06-13-2007, 03:33 PM
The dark side truly is the quick and easy path! :D In any event, I would argue that gamorreans fit the bill of "weak minded".

Toydarians are impossible to trick (so they're theoretically "strong minded"), yet Qui-Gon was able to fool Watto into rolling dice that anyone familiar with Jedi (as Watto appeared to be) would know could be easily manipulated.


This last situation is likely an example of multiple uses of mind trick at the same time. I don't think that it makes much sense that Kenobi would only affect the one. In that case it is clearly possible.

I disagree. All he'd have to do is trick the leader of the squad. The rest of the soldiers wouldn't need to be convinced, because they do what they're told (especially since they're apparently clones). Something making Kenobi's job even easier is that the troops probably didn't even want to be on that wasteland of a planet in the first place. It wouldn't have taken much to convince them to let them "move along."


But that is moral relativism to say that it isn't as bad to hurt a bad or tough person as it is a good or weak person. But I would argue that the Force doesn't differentiate between the two, and we have seen what happens when a force user uses moral relativism...

But Obi-Wan believed in relativism - "only a Sith deals in absolutes."


Dooku sure looks pretty calm when he is throwing all that lightning around...

I disagree. Every time he throws lightning around, he's gritting his teeth, as if he's straining to release his power. It's not as pronounced as when Palpatine uses it, but it's there.


But in the films, there are only two dark siders. There are the Sith, and no one else. And when they were destroyed, there were no dark siders left.

Agreed, which is one of the big problems with the novels and comics (and games, unfortunately). It's hard to have a Star Wars story without a villain.


The "problem" with games is that even though they are the same level of canon as the novels and comics, only the story is. Gameplay mechanics are not. But it is sometimes hard to tell what falls into the story category and what falls into the mechanics category.

Once again I agree. But as I've said before, many of the game stories are superior (at least in terms of staying true to the films) to the novel and comics stories.

Prime
06-14-2007, 02:12 PM
Toydarians are impossible to trick (so they're theoretically "strong minded"), yet Qui-Gon was able to fool Watto into rolling dice that anyone familiar with Jedi (as Watto appeared to be) would know could be easily manipulated. For some reason Watto doesn't realize Jinn is a Jedi, as evidenced by what he says on various occasions. In any event, a strong mind is not the same thing as an intelligent mind.

I disagree. All he'd have to do is trick the leader of the squad. The rest of the soldiers wouldn't need to be convinced, because they do what they're told (especially since they're apparently clones). They were there to find some droids. Surely if they saw the interaction between Kenobi and their seargent, they would likely give a "WTF?" to him, at least afterwards.

Something making Kenobi's job even easier is that the troops probably didn't even want to be on that wasteland of a planet in the first place. It wouldn't have taken much to convince them to let them "move along."But these are stormtroopers fanatically loyal to the Emperor. Even of they didn't want to be there, they would still attempt to do their duty as well as they could.

But Obi-Wan believed in relativism - "only a Sith deals in absolutes."That's not moral relativism. :)

I disagree. Every time he throws lightning around, he's gritting his teeth, as if he's straining to release his power. It's not as pronounced as when Palpatine uses it, but it's there. If you watch, for example, Yoda vs. Dooku in AOTC, he is speaking just as calmly as before [/i]while[i] he is attacking with lightning...

Ecthelion
06-14-2007, 03:21 PM
For some reason Watto doesn't realize Jinn is a Jedi, as evidenced by what he says on various occasions. In any event, a strong mind is not the same thing as an intelligent mind.

What about this?

WATTO : ...Here it is...a T-14 hyperdrive generator!! Thee in luck, I'm the
only one hereabouts who has one...but thee might as well buy a new ship. It
would be cheaper, I think...Sying of which, how's thee going to pay for all
this?
QUI-GON : I have 20,000 Republic dataries.
WATTO : Republic credits?!? Republic credits are no good out here. I need
something more real...
QUI-GON : I don't have anything else. (raising his hand) But credits will do
fine.
WATTO : No they won'ta. QUI-GON, using his mind power, waves his hand again.
QUI-GON : Credits will do fine.
WATTO : No, they won'ta. What you think you're some kinda Jedi, waving your
hand around like that? I'm a Toydarian. Mind tricks don'ta work on me-only
money. No money, no parts! No deal! And no one else has a T-14 hyperdrive, I
promise you that.

He might not recognize Qui-Gon as a Jedi, but he (at least jokingly) suggests he is one. If he didn't think Qui-Gon was a Jedi, why did he bother to explain that mind tricks didn't work on him? Are you suggesting non-Jedi can use mind tricks?
Also, Watto recognized Anakin as a Jedi in AotC.


They were there to find some droids. Surely if they saw the interaction between Kenobi and their seargent, they would likely give a "WTF?" to him, at least afterwards.

But the Jedi were thought to be extinct. Those stormtroopers probably weren't familiar with mind tricks, much less be expecting them.

Even if the stormtroopers questioned their commander's actions, they wouldn't have said anything before Kenobi left. The Empire is founded on discipline and order. Also, that's assuming they'd question him in the first place. They might as easily have assumed he knew those weren't the droids after a quick glance, due to some information they he had but they weren't privy to. All he would have to do is say that he recognized them as droids that had been already checked by another squad (or something like that), and that would be the end of it. Having his mind tricked by Obi-Wan, he would have been convinced that they weren't the right droids. His mind would have come up with a rationalization for this.


But these are stormtroopers fanatically loyal to the Emperor. Even of they didn't want to be there, they would still attempt to do their duty as well as they could.

Point taken.


That's not moral relativism. :)

I realize my example was bad. It was a case of relativism, but not moral relativism.


If you watch, for example, Yoda vs. Dooku in AOTC, he is speaking just as calmly as before while he is attacking with lightning...
I don't remember that, but let's assume you're right. Dooku had years of training as a Jedi, and presumably years of learning to be a Sith. It's not unreasonable to think that he could control his emotions (at least outwardly) to an extent. Luke, however, had a quick Jedi Boot Camp session, then went out to face the world. He would almost certainly be less skilled in masking his emotions. You might argue that Palpatine didn't bother hiding his emotions while using lightning. But Palpatine never had Jedi training. Dooku had the benefit of years of Jedi training to help him stay calm.

Corinthian
06-16-2007, 08:59 AM
The way I see it, it's not how you use the Force, it's why. You can't really assign a "Light" or "Dark" side to most of these abilities. Prescience? Telekinesis? Telepathy? Mind Reading? Mind games? Er, trick. Even Lightning could be used in a light side capacity, look at Electric Judgment? (Yeah, that's not Jedi propaganda to make people feel better.) It's Light Side Force Lightning, even Luke uses it.

Ecthelion
06-16-2007, 10:14 AM
Even Lightning could be used in a light side capacity, look at Electric Judgment? (Yeah, that's not Jedi propaganda to make people feel better.) It's Light Side Force Lightning, even Luke uses it.
That's only in the EU though, and it's one of many reasons I dislike the EU (although the games are fun). The entire concept of Emerald Lightning/Electric Judgment contradicts the movies. It was just a cheap way to let Light side Jedi use lightning.

Corinthian
06-16-2007, 11:35 AM
You can't just disregard the EU, Ecthelion. And Judgment doesn't contradict the movies at all. The movies never state that X Force Power is Light Side while X Force Power is Dark Side.

SilentScope001
06-16-2007, 04:08 PM
You can't just disregard the EU, Ecthelion.

Why not? It's not as though the EU is something holy to protect. The EU is just that, the EU. If people don't want to read it, they don't have to.

Generic Star Wars fan: "Man, I'm so glad the Empire is finally destroyed and Palpatine killed."

SilentScope001: "Well, Palpatine actually had clones, cloned himself, and did a resurgance of the Empire."

Generic Star Wars Fan: "...It took them 6 movies to kill off the poor bugger, now he has to be killed again?"

SilentScope001: "He could see the future and predict he was going to die."

Generic Star Wars Fan: "I never caught that. But was Palpatine destroyed?"

SilentScope001: "Yeah, but the Empire is still alive. It did suffer some troubles, but soon, people got bored of the corrupt Republic and allied with the Empire. The Empire soon took over the galaxy."

Generic Star Wars Fan: "Wow. Evil wins after all. Great Story."

SilentScope001: "Really?"

Generic Star Wars Fan: "No."

Prime
06-17-2007, 02:32 PM
He might not recognize Qui-Gon as a Jedi, but he (at least jokingly) suggests he is one. If he didn't think Qui-Gon was a Jedi, why did he bother to explain that mind tricks didn't work on him? For the benefit of the audience ultimately. :) As you say, it was a bit of a joke used to explain why Jinn couldn't just convince him to do what he wanted.

Are you suggesting non-Jedi can use mind tricks? Not at all. I'm suggesting that the fact he uses a "chance cube" to decide something with a Jedi right there with an interest in the outcome, and the fact he doesn't know how Jinn knew Anakin was going to win suggests that he did not know Jinn was a Jedi. Otherwise his responses and decisions would have been different.

Also, Watto recognized Anakin as a Jedi in AotC. But Anakin was wearing a lightsaber at the time, which Watto no doubt saw. Anakin knew Jinn was a Jedi because of it, which is why Jinn kept it concealed.

But the Jedi were thought to be extinct. Those stormtroopers probably weren't familiar with mind tricks, much less be expecting them. Which I think makes it just as likely for them to say something. Does that conversation sound in any way normal to an outside observer who doesn't know on side is a Jedi?

I don't remember that... So you don't have to take my word for it. Here is the section I am refering to... :)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=-KHgNXTHVvc

Dooku had years of training as a Jedi, and presumably years of learning to be a Sith. It's not unreasonable to think that he could control his emotions (at least outwardly) to an extent. But why would he want to? The Sith teach about embracing your hatred and anger!

You can't really assign a "Light" or "Dark" side to most of these abilities. Prescience? Telekinesis? Telepathy? Mind Reading? Mind games? Er, trick. Even Lightning could be used in a light side capacity, look at Electric Judgment? (Yeah, that's not Jedi propaganda to make people feel better.) It's Light Side Force Lightning, even Luke uses it. Force lightning has been explicitly specified as a Sith and dark side power in g-canon.

And Judgment doesn't contradict the movies at all. The movies never state that X Force Power is Light Side while X Force Power is Dark Side. No, but Lucas does, which make it g-canon, which makes it higher canon than the EU.

mimartin
06-17-2007, 06:38 PM
Toydarians are impossible to trick (so they're theoretically "strong minded"), yet Qui-Gon was able to fool Watto into rolling dice that anyone familiar with Jedi (as Watto appeared to be) would know could be easily manipulated.

The problem was Qui-Gon Jinn knew Watto’s weakness and even if Watto might have suspected that Qui-Gun was Jedi it would save him from his own demons. Watto was a compulsive gambler and Qui-Gon’s knowledge of this is what made Watto so easy to manipulate. It does not matter how smart or strong minded a compulsive gambler is, the motivation to gamble is one that is very difficult to resist.

GarfieldJL
06-17-2007, 08:29 PM
Actually Qui-Gon used the force to manipulate the dice so he would he'd win Anakin if Anakin won. He didn't manipulate Watto with the force though.

mimartin
06-17-2007, 09:17 PM
Actually Qui-Gon used the force to manipulate the dice so he would he'd win Anakin if Anakin won. He didn't manipulate Watto with the force though.

I was speaking about how Qui-Gon got Watto to agree to the bet. What I wrote had nothing to do with the dice or the outcome.

Ecthelion
06-18-2007, 08:58 AM
You can't just disregard the EU, Ecthelion. And Judgment doesn't contradict the movies at all. The movies never state that X Force Power is Light Side while X Force Power is Dark Side.
Sure I can. The EU is full of things that contradict the movies (such as Luke facing Darth Vader before ESB, Boba Fett's origin, etc). As others have stated, "Light side" lightning contradicts the movies also. We never see Light side Jedi use powers like lightning. The only people we've seen use it are Dooku and Palpatine - two Sith.


Which I think makes it just as likely for them to say something. Does that conversation sound in any way normal to an outside observer who doesn't know on side is a Jedi?

No, it doesn't sound like a normal conversation. Still, stormtroopers would respect the chain of command, and wouldn't question him in front of a civilian. If they questioned him later, it wouldn't really matter for Obi-Wan's purposes because he would be elsewhere by then.

There's another possibility also. Let's assume Obi-Wan was able to trick all of the stormtroopers present. Perhaps Luke wasn't that skilled at tricking minds. After all, the first time we saw him use it was on Bib Fortuna. Comparing this to Jedi Outcast, we could say Obi-Wan had Mind Trick level 3, while Luke had Mind Trick level 1.


So you don't have to take my word for it. Here is the section I am refering to... :)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=-KHgNXTHVvc

But why would he want to? The Sith teach about embracing your hatred and anger!

You're right about Dooku. It seems that half the time he's gritting his teeth in anger, and half the time he's as calm as any Jedi. As I said before, perhaps he hasn't completely turned his back on his Jedi teachings, and finds it helpful to remain calm sometimes. After all, Palpatine said that Anakin should embrace a "larger view of the Force" - suggesting that he should make use of both Light side and Dark side teachings. Also, perhaps Dooku's long history as a Jedi was a weakness to his Sith abilities? It could have been one of the reasons Palpatine wanted to replace him.

Consider this. We've seen 4 Sith in the movies: Palpatine, Darth Maul, Dooku, and Anakin/Darth Vader. 2 of them (Palpatine and Darth Maul) were never Jedi and hid their Force ability while secretly training in the ways of the Sith. The other 2 (Dooku and Anakin) were Jedi but turned to the ways of the Sith. Is it a coincidence that the 2 who were previously Jedi happened to be calm much of the time, but the 2 who were never Jedi were little more than animals once in a fight?

In the end, it might be as simple as the fact that Christopher Lee is too distinguished to run around with a scowl on his face all the time. He looks quite regal standing there, dismissing his inferiors with a withering stare.

Rockstar
06-18-2007, 11:35 PM
First, i don't see how there is possibly a 'grey jedi'. Somebody falls off a building, you save them or you don't. You are as powerful as your master, you follow them out of respect or overthrow them because you are more powerful...

Choices... think logically and see that choices will lead you to a jedi that is MORE light or MORE dark, but there is always a line that shows their ideals. You cannot sit close to the dark side and play with it without being sucked in. If there is a grey Jedi it is a step before falling to the dark side


I don't see how you can use lightning for non-destructive purposes either. I would say Force Grip is inherently Dark too, and that we should think of Mind Trick (or something similar) being used in ROTJ in place of Force Grip.


Vader uses protect to block blaster shots just as Luke grips the guards. He choses to get out of their way and not just stand their and kill them but just walk past them. A jedi would not use lightning ever because it is a slow and painful way to defeat your enemy. A Sith would not focus on meditative techniques because they prefer to feed their anger. They can use each other's powers but do not because they conflict with believes and fighting styles

PoiuyWired
06-19-2007, 06:55 AM
Well, its all about when and how you use them. Things like force rage is probably quite limited in terms of LS/DS, but most are not. There is a light side version of force lightning and it has been used. As for meditation, yes sith meditate too. Remember, even for force lightning you don't have to use it against a living object... it would work just as well to short circuit a huge digital system. And don't tell me how computers feel pain and such, cause even for Jedis droids are droids in most cases, and computer panels are probably not equipped with pain receptors.

Corinthian
06-19-2007, 07:28 AM
Yeah, there are several times when apparently Dark Side powers could be used for Light Side purposes. For example, one could use Force lightning on someone who is in ventricular fibrillation. It would hurt for them later, but I'm sure they'd prefer that to being dead.

Ecthelion
06-19-2007, 09:37 AM
Vader uses protect to block blaster shots just as Luke grips the guards. He choses to get out of their way and not just stand their and kill them but just walk past them.
What are you talking about here? When did that happen?

Well, its all about when and how you use them. Things like force rage is probably quite limited in terms of LS/DS, but most are not. There is a light side version of force lightning and it has been used.
Are people even reading the posts in this thread, or just the original post? We all know and acknowledge that Force Lightning has been used by Light side Jedi in the EU. However, several of us (including myself) feel that this contradicts the films and choose to chalk it up to yet another inconsistency of the EU. Basically, what this boils down to is whether you accept the EU as a valid source or not. If you choose to accept the EU, you are forced to believe Lightning can be used by LS Jedi. If you only consider the films to be canon, however, you are likely going to conclude that Lightning is an "evil" power (as George Lucas intended) and cannot be used by LS Jedi without leading them to the Dark Side.

As for your example, how is Force Rage more "Dark" than Lightning? Both of them are fed by strong emotions such as rage.

Rockstar
06-19-2007, 10:41 AM
In reply to above.

Vader uses the force to stop han solo's blaster shots in Ep5 and in Ep6 Luke chokes the guards to get past them.

I believe all jedi can use all powers in theory, its just they chose not to because there is no purpose of a LS using lightning when they can push without the torture, while a sith would chose to torture an opponent.

The Jedi and Sith have different ideals that carry them through combat. This is why they are different.

SilentScope001
06-19-2007, 11:00 AM
Remember, even for force lightning you don't have to use it against a living object... it would work just as well to short circuit a huge digital system. And don't tell me how computers feel pain and such, cause even for Jedis droids are droids in most cases, and computer panels are probably not equipped with pain receptors.

There is a Droid Tortue Chamber in ROTJ.

HK-47 tortues a HK-50 droid in the cut content, harming pain receptors.

The Droids' Rebellion was the first conflict in the Great Sith War, and it was done due to droids being oppressed by meatbags.

Basically, droids do feel pain. It's in the EU. It's canon. And if droids feel pain, then prehaps computers can too...

It does bring up Droid Lighting though in the K1 and K2 series, in which case it is used to short-circut droids and robots and destroy them. Etcholin's comments does lead me to question about Droid Lighting however...how come it's DS to harm human beings with Lighting, but purely LS to blow up droids? Can't droids feel pain?

Corinthian
06-19-2007, 11:07 AM
I think the Light/Dark Side is a load of crap. The way I see it, the Force is not good or evil, it's just there. Now, you have the good force wielders, and the evil force wielders. So what's the Dark Side? Power is a corrupting force. You don't need supernatural abilities to let the lust for power bring you to commit atrocities.

Ecthelion
06-19-2007, 12:25 PM
Vader uses the force to stop han solo's blaster shots in Ep5 and in Ep6 Luke chokes the guards to get past them.
Ah. I was thinking you were talking about a single event. I'm easy to confuse in my old age.

There is a Droid Tortue Chamber in ROTJ.

Basically, droids do feel pain. It's in the EU. It's canon. And if droids feel pain, then prehaps computers can too...

As you've said, droids are shown to feel pain in RotJ (and ESB when Chewie is putting C-3PO back together). We don't need the EU to back that up, as it's right there in the films.


It does bring up Droid Lighting though in the K1 and K2 series, in which case it is used to short-circut droids and robots and destroy them. Etcholin's comments does lead me to question about Droid Lighting however...how come it's DS to harm human beings with Lighting, but purely LS to blow up droids? Can't droids feel pain?
Interesting observation. The droid force powers in K1 and K2 should indeed be Dark Side powers. It's just a game mechanic that we have to ignore, like good Jedi being able to use Lightning with no effect on their Light/Dark standing.

I think the Light/Dark Side is a load of crap. The way I see it, the Force is not good or evil, it's just there. Now, you have the good force wielders, and the evil force wielders.
Well that's the core of the issue. If you take the EU into account, Force users can be neutral, and things aren't as black and white as the movies lead us to believe. However, if you view the EU as George Lucas does, and consider the movies by themselves, you get a very clear view of good vs. evil. That was Lucas' intention in telling the story of Star Wars. There is no room in his movies for neutral characters. Everyone eventually falls into the "good" or "evil" camp. Look at Han and Lando. They are the most neutral characters in the movies, yet they become the "good guys" by the time of RotJ. No one can stand on the sidelines. That's what Lucas was trying to show us - there is an epic conflict between good and evil, and anyone affected by it (which is almost everyone) has to choose a side before the final battle. Of course, he also left room in the story for redemption: namely, the last-minute change-of-heart for Anakin Skywalker. So the moral is, you can't stay neutral, but at the same time it's never too late to change sides.


So what's the Dark Side? Power is a corrupting force. You don't need supernatural abilities to let the lust for power bring you to commit atrocities.

Indeed. It's not necessary to be a Jedi or Sith to be evil or good. However, Yoda said that the Force surrounds every living thing. Admiral Piett, for example, serves the Dark Side because he aids the Sith. It doesn't matter that he's not a Force user. He has still given in to the Dark Side.

Prime
06-19-2007, 12:41 PM
As others have stated, "Light side" lightning contradicts the movies also. We never see Light side Jedi use powers like lightning. The only people we've seen use it are Dooku and Palpatine - two Sith.Plus, we are told explicitly that only the Sith use lightning.

No, it doesn't sound like a normal conversation. Still, stormtroopers would respect the chain of command, and wouldn't question him in front of a civilian. If they questioned him later, it wouldn't really matter for Obi-Wan's purposes because he would be elsewhere by then. Possibly, but then after the fact they would have all the more reason to hunt him down, even though they had a head start. But if he tricks the group, they can go on their merry way without fear of that happening.

There's another possibility also. Let's assume Obi-Wan was able to trick all of the stormtroopers present. Perhaps Luke wasn't that skilled at tricking minds. After all, the first time we saw him use it was on Bib Fortuna. Comparing this to Jedi Outcast, we could say Obi-Wan had Mind Trick level 3, while Luke had Mind Trick level 1. Maybe, but given the power that Luke shows in ROTJ, I don't think being able to trick two gamorreans with the kind of minds they have is any sort of stretch.

In any event, we can come up with reasons for both ways, but we seem to be getting nowhere. So if you agree let's move on. :)

After all, Palpatine said that Anakin should embrace a "larger view of the Force" - suggesting that he should make use of both Light side and Dark side teachings. The Sith clearly do use both "sides" but that doesn't change how the dark side is used.

Consider this. We've seen 4 Sith in the movies: Palpatine, Darth Maul, Dooku, and Anakin/Darth Vader. 2 of them (Palpatine and Darth Maul) were never Jedi and hid their Force ability while secretly training in the ways of the Sith. The other 2 (Dooku and Anakin) were Jedi but turned to the ways of the Sith. Is it a coincidence that the 2 who were previously Jedi happened to be calm much of the time, but the 2 who were never Jedi were little more than animals once in a fight? Could be. But we know that Dooku is using anger and hate when uses lightning against yoda, yet at times looks calm. So why can't Luke use anger with grip against the guards and still look calm? After all, he was trained as a Jedi too. :)

Well, its all about when and how you use them.But the point I've been trying to make is that it isn't about "how you use them!" The act of using it is what is evil in the SW universe. We've been told this. We've been told that using the dark side is evil and only the Sith do such things.

There is a light side version of force lightning and it has been used.EU states that what ever that is it isn't force lightning, which is canonically a dark side power. Personally, I think that whole thing is silly, but even if you accept it it still doesn't make lightning anything but evil.

Remember, even for force lightning you don't have to use it against a living object...Doesn't make any difference, which again is the point I've been trying to make. It is the act of creating the lightning that is evil and is using the dark side, and how it is used has no bearing in that regard.

Yeah, there are several times when apparently Dark Side powers could be used for Light Side purposes. For example, one could use Force lightning on someone who is in ventricular fibrillation. It would hurt for them later, but I'm sure they'd prefer that to being dead.For one, it wouldn't work, since force lightning damages tissue, and second it is not electricity. Anyway, merely using it would be dark side act.

Are people even reading the posts in this thread, or just the original post?I've been wondering that myself. :D

I believe all jedi can use all powers in theory, its just they chose not to because there is no purpose of a LS using lightning when they can push without the torture, while a sith would chose to torture an opponent.A Jedi does not use dark side powers because of what the dark side is.

Ecthelion
06-19-2007, 02:58 PM
Maybe, but given the power that Luke shows in ROTJ, I don't think being able to trick two gamorreans with the kind of minds they have is any sort of stretch.

It's possible. We'll never know for sure. In any event, I was just trying to think of a reason Luke wouldn't simply trick the minds of the Gamorrean guards. I still maintain that Luke wasn't giving in to the Dark Side by choking the Gamorreans, because very little of the evidence points to that. Of course, I normally believe that Dark Side powers like Grip are inherently evil, so that poses a problem. Perhaps his technique varied from Vader's, and he didn't do any serious damage with it? I realize I'm arguing against myself again, because I think the concept of "good" Lightning is silly. I just don't think that Luke was giving in to the Dark Side here. I still think that if RotJ had been made nowadays, Luke would have used Force Push (perhaps trapping the guards so they couldn't warn Jabba).


In any event, we can come up with reasons for both ways, but we seem to be getting nowhere. So if you agree let's move on. :)

That's true. In the end, my primary source is just my belief that Luke couldn't give in to the Dark Side, because he's the "good guy" (and because it would make Dark Empire more believable, which is unacceptable to me). Let's move on.


The Sith clearly do use both "sides" but that doesn't change how the dark side is used.

Agreed. I never claimed otherwise. I was trying to say that Dooku and Anakin couldn't simply "undo" their Jedi training. Once they had become Sith, they might still show calmness in battle. Of course they would still draw their power from anger and hate, but their "default reaction" to something might still be to remain calm. Darth Maul and Palpatine didn't have the benefit of Jedi training, so they would have never learned the lesson that remaining calm helps center oneself. It seems logical that they wouldn't be able to show calmness (even if it's just an outward appearance) in battle.


Could be. But we know that Dooku is using anger and hate when uses lightning against yoda, yet at times looks calm. So why can't Luke use anger with grip against the guards and still look calm? After all, he was trained as a Jedi too. :)

Luke's training was very short and basic though. Dooku was presumably a Jedi for years. Luke also had difficulty training, and never showed the ability to remain calm during a crisis.

As a side note, it's interesting that Luke, without the benefit of years of training, was able to resist the Dark Side, while his father couldn't, even though he was surrounded by good influences (and one bad influence).


Doesn't make any difference, which again is the point I've been trying to make. It is the act of creating the lightning that is evil and is using the dark side, and how it is used has no bearing in that regard.

Agreed.

Corinthian
06-19-2007, 03:15 PM
For the record, there is no "Force Push" "Force Pull" or "Force Grip." It's just telekinesis.

True_Avery
06-19-2007, 03:29 PM
I think it should just be accepted that Star Wars is your basic fantasy universe of Good Vs. Evil. I justify my fic version of the Force as relative because it is a universe I have created that is similar to Star Wars, but holds many real life elements and thus is no longer Star Wars. EU has many very questionable things that are placed there by authors incorporating real life elements into Star Wars, thus they ruin the Good and Evil story the films tried to create.

And if you look into it, even if you believe the EU 100% Emerald Lightning and Force Lighting are two different things altogether. Emerald causes pain but does not harm flesh, Force Lightning is a projection of hate and pain that causes pain and mutilates the body. Calling the two the same is silly. True, it can be argued that Force Lightning could be used to help someone, but as Prime has stated: Force Lightning is not actual electricity and even if it is it is still created by the cruelty and hatred of the darkside.

I agree with a lot of what you are all saying. I'm personally using Force Lightning in my fic to save someone by restarting their heart, but as I will say again I have created my own Star Wars universe to play around in. Prime so far is one of the few that has held completely true to the films and what message and story they put across. Star Wars is a fantasy universe of Good Vs. Evil and only the EU has room to argue and the best example of EU not agreeing with that would have to be the two Kotor games.

If I wasn't so tired right now I would make a better example than the one i am about to use...

I don't know if any of you know about this old anime, but it is called Sailor Moon. Sailor Moon uses love and heart to banish the evil demons sent to take souls from earth using cruelty and evil. So, lets apply relativety to this. Sailor Moon can now control powers of the underworld because it is still magic and she is using it for the "right reason."
It makes no sense to have someone as kind and loving as Sailor Moon control the evil demons and powers of the underworld to destroy the forces of evil. The story states she uses love and kindness of heart to power her magic, so what right do editors and such really have to give her the powers of the underworld.

That was a terrible example, but I think you get my point :P

Ecthelion
06-19-2007, 05:23 PM
For the record, there is no "Force Push" "Force Pull" or "Force Grip." It's just telekinesis.
Where did you get that information? If that's the case, Obi-Wan was using the same power when he pushed droids as Vader was when he strangled Ozzel; we know that's not true. It's true that all of those powers manipulate things telekinetically, but that doesn't make them all the same power.

I think it should just be accepted that Star Wars is your basic fantasy universe of Good Vs. Evil. I justify my fic version of the Force as relative because it is a universe I have created that is similar to Star Wars, but holds many real life elements and thus is no longer Star Wars. EU has many very questionable things that are placed there by authors incorporating real life elements into Star Wars, thus they ruin the Good and Evil story the films tried to create.

Good point. The EU, like your stories, is no longer Star Wars because of its wider view of the Force. I am in favor of separating the EU and the movies whenever possible.

PoiuyWired
06-20-2007, 04:38 PM
Well, but kotor IS EU. And for the record, saving people with DS lightning style is done in EU for more than once. It is considered to be a DS action cause it Forcably BEND the force to one's own will against its natural flow. Anakin did it way back in the Clone Wars,and His great great great... great grand son succeed it pulling it out twice, once on some horny guy the other on some princess brat.

Prime
06-21-2007, 02:10 PM
But IIRC the other Jon Ostrander mentioned that that was not sith lightning, but some other power...

PoiuyWired
06-21-2007, 04:12 PM
Then I will have to reread it ... if I can find the books. But yes Cade is not a good example cause of all the anger inside him. As for Anakin's case, I need to find it and double check.

But basically I think this comes down to if you invoke a force power flowing WITH the white current of the force flow itself, of you forceably bend it against its flow by sheer brute domination. Grated, many of the force powers are quite neutral in that it requires only a smell detour for the force even when it comes to a DS wielder, while some techniques have an obvious twist and domination of the force flow. Things like Force Rage is almost definitely DS, but the rest is somewhat grey.

I mean if ther is DS technique to heal and revive and LS techniques to cause destruction, then the line is pretty blurr indeed.

Prime
06-21-2007, 10:21 PM
Then I will have to reread it ... if I can find the books. But yes Cade is not a good example cause of all the anger inside him. As for Anakin's case, I need to find it and double check. If you do, note that after he uses it (at least the second time) he has "Sith eyes" like Anakin did. So that implies that what he did, even if for good intentions, was of the dark side.

CK51
05-04-2008, 04:15 PM
That's true. In the end, my primary source is just my belief that Luke couldn't give in to the Dark Side, because he's the "good guy" (and because it would make Dark Empire more believable, which is unacceptable to me). Let's move on.

Why do you find Dark Empire unacceptable? I personally thought it was a great sotry,and remember, it was written before any of the chilidsh "chosen one" crap was made up. I personally think Luke is more Jedi than Anakin will ever be, even though hes only the "catalyst" that allowed Anakin to complete the prophecy.

Also, I think Dark Empire was a great story, GL himself said it was the closest thing to a sequel trilogy there is. What do you have against it?

Corinthian
05-04-2008, 05:00 PM
Dark Empire is ludicrous, but not because of Luke falling to the Dark Side. The Force Storms, for example, are the most ridiculous plot hole I've ever seen - I.E., why didn't he use them to destroy the Rebel Fleet amassing at Sullust before the Battle of Endor?

CK51
05-04-2008, 05:25 PM
Dark Empire is ludicrous, but not because of Luke falling to the Dark Side. The Force Storms, for example, are the most ridiculous plot hole I've ever seen - I.E., why didn't he use them to destroy the Rebel Fleet amassing at Sullust before the Battle of Endor?

Because if he had destroyed the fleet at Sullust, he wouldnt have got the chance to seduce Luke as his apprentice, because Luke was more powerful potentially than Vader, so he wanted Luke to continue the Sith legacy.

TKA-001
05-04-2008, 06:53 PM
1) Darth Vader uses force protect against blaster fire in Ep5
That's not force protect. It's just the armor on Vader's suit.

Emerald Lightning and Force Lighting are two different things altogether. Emerald causes pain but does not harm flesh, Force Lightning is a projection of hate and pain that causes pain and mutilates the body.
What? Emerald lightning is shown to kill people instantly.

Dark Empire is ludicrous, but not because of Luke falling to the Dark Side. The Force Storms, for example, are the most ridiculous plot hole I've ever seen - I.E., why didn't he use them to destroy the Rebel Fleet amassing at Sullust before the Battle of Endor?
You forgot the use of the force to absorb canon fire from an AT-AT walker before crushing it to bits with the force, walking on top of lava (someplace other than Dark Empire), and force lightning which kills people instantly (NJO). That's just off the top of my head.

Why do you find Dark Empire unacceptable? I personally thought it was a great sotry,and remember, it was written before any of the chilidsh "chosen one" crap was made up. I personally think Luke is more Jedi than Anakin will ever be, even though hes only the "catalyst" that allowed Anakin to complete the prophecy.

Also, I think Dark Empire was a great story, GL himself said it was the closest thing to a sequel trilogy there is. What do you have against it?
Since when does the Chosen One have to be a Jedi at all? That aside, there is no way I can comprehend the idea of a real person saying with a straight face that Dark Empire is a good, the Lord God himself forbid a great story. With this post I enclose a list of reasons.

1. The [aforementioned] insane force powers.

2. It follows the plot device entitled "When in doubt, resurrect the old main villain".

3. Palpatine returning and reunifying the Empire with a gigantic amount of overpowered ships and superweapons in practically the blink of an eye completely destroys the sense that the heroes ever accomplished anything in Episode 6. It's even lamer that he can resurrect himself over and over with the clone bodies junk.

4. The drawing style put Chuck Norris into a coma when he tried to read it (true story).

5. The unneeded load of overpowered superweapons that Palpatine whips up like popcorn. The best example is, of course, the "Galaxy Gun", which is basically the concept of the Death Star, but on enough crack and steroids to run a smuggling ring with.

6. Palpatine becomes an absolute idiot in Dark Empire. The idea that he would seriously want Luke as an apprentice after Episode 6 is an insult to his character. He himself saw firsthand that Luke's family has a history of treachery. Why would he take such a chance again when he really doesn't need to?

7. Palpatine acts like gigantic flaming moron throughout Dark Empire, but the magnitude of his idiocy doesn't hit full force until the climax, where he decides that his best course of action is (in order to escape death from his current degenerating body) to transfer his mind into the body of an infant. Just what the hell was he thinking?

I seriously cannot imagine there being a need for any more reasons. All of those were off the top of my head. Your statement that this is any less "childish" than the Chosen One plotline is an absolute mystery to me. Say what you want about the prequels, but Dark Empire makes the worst mistakes a storyline can have, including repeated resurrection of the main villain, ridiculous plot holes, overpowered weapons, overpowered characters, and the corruption of a formerly excellent villain into a blithering retard.

Because if he had destroyed the fleet at Sullust, he wouldnt have got the chance to seduce Luke as his apprentice, because Luke was more powerful potentially than Vader, so he wanted Luke to continue the Sith legacy.
Luke was not crucial to the Empire's success. Palpatine having an apprentice at all wasn't necessary either. The only reason he kept Vader around was because there was no reason to get rid of him, and he kept officers in line and so on. Besides, if Luke wasn't an option, Jerec could have made just as good an apprentice.

Besides, even if that excuse wasn't full of holes, it still doesn't explain why Palpatine didn't just use the force storms at Endor after Luke was on the Death Star II. And don't say that he couldn't because he was busy concentrating on the affair with Luke and Vader, because Dark Empire shows him to be capable of controlling a Force Storm while watching TV and running on a treadmill (a real multi-tasker).

luckyariot
05-04-2008, 10:16 PM
That's not force protect. It's just the armor on Vader's suit..
...? Where was that confirmed? I thought that was one of those Han-shot-first moments...

1. The [aforementioned] insane force powers.
(nod, nod)
2. It follows the plot device entitled "When in doubt, resurrect the old main villain".
It wasn't done too badly, all things considered, but otherwise I agree that it is overdone.
It's even lamer that he can resurrect himself over and over with the clone bodies junk.
See above. But, we all knew the 'cloned-villain-returning' was coming... :lol:
5. The unneeded load of overpowered superweapons that Palpatine whips up like popcorn.
:D Exactly my thoughts.
7. Palpatine acts like gigantic flaming moron throughout Dark Empire, but the magnitude of his idiocy doesn't hit full force until the climax, where he decides that his best course of action is (in order to escape death from his current degenerating body) to transfer his mind into the body of an infant. Just what the hell was he thinking?
See above.
how come it's DS to harm human beings with Lighting, but purely LS to blow up droids? Can't droids feel pain?
Yeah... was wondering about that and if it is actually lightning or that's just a gaming visual effect like the sparkles during battle meditation. I'm pretty sure though, that Stun/Destroy Droid, etc. only short-circits the droid, which may not nessisarily cause pain like torture where they remain 'concious'.

I seem to be a minority on these boards, since I see nothing wrong with attaching the real-world confusing identities of light and dark to Star Wars, as long as the light and dark exist. But most of the power's alignments seem determined by the user's intent and their use, while others are clearly light or dark (Force Healing and Force Lightning respectively)...yeah, I have nothing else to say now.

TKA-001
05-04-2008, 10:47 PM
...? Where was that confirmed? I thought that was one of those Han-shot-first moments...
It wasn't really confirmed anywhere that it was protect anymore than it was the armor on his suit, but the ladder made much more sense to me, since his hand under that glove is made of solid durasteel (or whatever they call it) and his hands continue to smoke after the shots impact. If he absorbed or deflected them with the force, there wouldn't be any smoke or sparks.

As for the Stun/Destroy Droid power, I always figured that was unnecessary to have, since it looks the same as lightning (and I don't see why lightning wouldn't have the same effects).

jonathan7
05-04-2008, 11:26 PM
Most of the EU after Episode 6, seems at least to me to be stupid and a great mess. Infact I think a great deal has been done to trash the whole of Star Wars really.

On-topic:

A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack.

CK51
05-05-2008, 06:41 AM
WEll whatever you say, I liked DArk Empire because it was the first EU stuff I ever read. And it started the entire Ulic Qel-Droma old sith thing didnt it? So without DE wed never have KOTOR. Or maybe that was the Kyp Durron/Admiral Daala story, I never remember. Mybe theytook Exar from Kyp and Ulic from DE and tied it all together. I dunno.

And back on topic, Jedi Master Arka Jeth reassembles the inside of the Droids, changing all the wires around and everything, with telekinesis, to disable droids when hes fighting the Krath on Deneba or wherever it was.

adamqd
05-05-2008, 07:25 AM
Yeah it was Ulic and the Krath, but that was in the end notes, not the main story and probably would of been released regardless. The Background given in the endnotes was essentially a rough draft, it is very different from the actual Tales of the Jedi comics.

topic: Remember that in the OT it was only explained that there were Jedi who could use the force for "Special abilities", for all we knew lightning and choking were a Jedi skill, and there were Jedi who weren't the good guys anymore, Game mechanics and EU Expanded on force alignment and opposing skills and force powers between Sith/Dark Jedi and Jedi

CK51
05-05-2008, 10:35 AM
Thinking more on the subject, choking isnt an evil power. Basically, either youre using telekinesis to block the victims windpipe, just as one would when normally chooking someone, or stopping all the molecules of oxygen from being breathed in, making the victims ashypxiate from breathing nitrogen and CO2.

A much more effetive use of telekinesis would be using force pull to rip the victims windpipe right out of his body.

Prime
05-05-2008, 11:02 AM
for all we knew lightning and choking were a Jedi skillLucas has stated that lightning is a Sith power that requires the use of the dark side.

adamqd
05-05-2008, 12:04 PM
Lucas has stated that lightning is a Sith power that requires the use of the dark side.

for all we "Knew", I was speaking about the OT when it was released, before all the interviews conjecture EU and the prequels :)

Prime
05-05-2008, 12:14 PM
Sorry. Misread.

adamqd
05-05-2008, 12:25 PM
If I had written what you thought you read you would be right :D

Corinthian
05-05-2008, 02:46 PM
Emerald Judgment. 'nuff said on the lightning front.

CK51
05-05-2008, 03:08 PM
Plo Koon can use Electric Judgement in Jedi Power Battles cant he? (arghh i loved that game)

Gothic90
05-09-2008, 02:41 AM
A Jedi uses the force for knowledge and defense, never for attack.

But the best defense is to attack.

TKA-001
05-09-2008, 01:34 PM
Plo Koon can use Electric Judgement in Jedi Power Battles cant he? (arghh i loved that game)
I don't think that game can be taken as a canonical source, since it only loosely follows the movie and allows for people who weren't on Naboo to be there.